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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-21

---Logopened Sun Dec 21 00:00:50 2014
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01:37<andythenorth>o/
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04:44<andythenorth>ou est le chat?
04:44-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host44-14-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:44<andythenorth>oh le wolf
04:44<andythenorth>le wolf ne pas le chat
04:45<Wolf01>hello :D
04:46<Taede>mornin
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04:57<Eddi|zuHause>did you mean "n'est" or "n'ai"
05:00<@planetmaker>moin
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05:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
05:02<andythenorth>also
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>the cat is definitely in front of my door, demanding food
05:02<andythenorth>Iron Horse trains are now normalised to load in 240 ticks
05:02<andythenorth>how long should ships take in Squid?
05:03<andythenorth>vanilla ottd ships appear to load 8x faster than trains
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that passes as a sensible guideline
05:04<andythenorth>agreed
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>as probably nobody ever thought of ship balance. ever.
05:04<andythenorth>how many train vehicles are unloaded at once?
05:05<andythenorth>I don’t know anything about the load / unload algorithm
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>all
05:05<Wolf01>hmm, isn't today the first day, is it?
05:05<andythenorth>so an 8x30t train will load in same time as a 240t ship?
05:06<andythenorth>Wolf01: solstice?
05:06<Wolf01>yes
05:06<andythenorth>yes
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>why would that qualify as "first" over any other day?
05:07<Wolf01>this is the first day I've seen fog at this hour
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05:50<andythenorth>lo Alberth
05:50-!-tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:50<@Alberth>hi hi
05:51<@Alberth>lots of people with strong opinions on what fish and firs should do :p
05:51<andythenorth>there are?
05:51<andythenorth>where are they hiding?
05:52<andythenorth>cdist thread?
05:52<@Alberth>yep
05:52<andythenorth>I hate this way of thinking, but are forums getting stupider?
05:52<Wolf01>o/
05:52<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01
05:52<andythenorth>or do I now know too much?
05:53<@Alberth>not sure
05:54<@Alberth>I am sort of used to it, with people having opinions on what openttd should do
05:55<@Alberth>perhaps firs/fish is getting so common that you are getting the same kind of audience
05:55<@peter1138>Quick, upload a corrupted copy and run away...
05:56<@Alberth>and blame the devs :p
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i've seen waaaaaay worse forums
05:56<andythenorth>I don’t normally go in the ‘problems’ forum
05:56<andythenorth>but lately I did
05:57<@Alberth>at least they are investigating, and are showing an interest in how things work
05:57<andythenorth>there are some that seem really insanely dumb
05:57<andythenorth>but I think they’re about 11 years old
05:57<@Alberth>can also be language barrier, in some cases
05:57<andythenorth>the town names one was the worst so far
05:58<andythenorth>nah, these are mostly brits
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>no. the currency one :(
05:58<andythenorth>I can see the confusion there at least
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05:59<@Alberth>I think it's mostly a matter of not knowing what the structure is of the mechanisms underneath
05:59<@Alberth>we are very good at making up random explanations for things we see :)
05:59<@Alberth>hola
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that happens to me, too :p
06:00<andythenorth>so how fast should ships load then?
06:00<andythenorth>240 ticks?
06:01<@Alberth>would be fine for me, as it's less than infinite :)
06:01<andythenorth>so it’s not weird that 50t ship and 1000t ship both load in 240 ticks? o_O
06:01<frosch123>moin
06:02<@Alberth>I never compare different ships that way, but I guess one could
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>making huge ships take longer may be a way to balance them
06:02<@Alberth>maybe you want express it in tonnes/tick or so?
06:03<andythenorth>that is how the default loading_speed property works, kinda
06:04<andythenorth>maybe I just set them all loading speed 10
06:04<andythenorth>and done
06:04<andythenorth>same as default
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06:06<andythenorth>actually I’m just close the ticket and ignore the issue :)
06:06<andythenorth>much simpler
06:06<@Alberth>:)
06:07<andythenorth>seems they have loading speeds set already manually
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06:08<@Alberth>probably, I haven't seen any problems with ship loading speeds, as far as I can remember
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>my gameplay experience is over 3 years old now
06:12<andythenorth>play a game :)
06:12<andythenorth>for Christmas
06:13*andythenorth ponders a stupid GS
06:13<@planetmaker>moin
06:14<@Alberth>gs-awards? :)
06:14<andythenorth>something like that
06:15<andythenorth>after random number of years, it just says “You won"
06:15<@Alberth>haha!
06:15<andythenorth>dunno, I think it would get me playing the game
06:15<andythenorth>just to see how long it takes
06:15<andythenorth>upper limit 150 years
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i can't play a game. i would immediately be annoyed about that CETS is not even remotely playable
06:15*andythenorth can understand that
06:15<andythenorth>chicken, egg
06:15<andythenorth>will you finish CETS if you don’t play a game?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>i can't concentrate on CETS
06:16<andythenorth>anyone playing Squid RC? I am thinking of 1.0.0-ing it
06:16<andythenorth>no bugs reported
06:17<andythenorth>I just fixed the ‘heavy fish’ bug
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06:20<@Alberth>I am, seems to work
06:21<andythenorth>winner
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06:22<andythenorth>hmm
06:22<andythenorth>“that will learn me”
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06:22<andythenorth>two projects, one repo
06:22<andythenorth>FISH and Squid both in same repo
06:22<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Heerhugorecht_Transport_1880-03-04.sav
06:22<andythenorth>so I have tags for FISH already
06:23<@Alberth>sq-1.0.0? :)
06:23<andythenorth>2.0.0?
06:23<andythenorth>major version change
06:23<Wolf01>I had the same problem with the components of our CMS, I had to split every component to its own repository
06:23<@Alberth>good option
06:23<Rubidium>2014.12.23?
06:23<andythenorth>Wolf01: that’s horrible :)
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06:24<andythenorth>we’re just merging all our repos back together where possible
06:24<Wolf01>eh, but we are using composer to get the the required components
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>didn't you already have a FISH 2?
06:24<andythenorth>FISH 2 = Squid
06:25<andythenorth>name needs changed on bananaramas
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06:25<@Alberth>and devzone, for that matter :)
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>so then why not name it 2.0?
06:25<andythenorth>agreed
06:25<andythenorth>done
06:25<@Alberth>fish2-1.0.0 :)
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>changing names is a terrible idea anyway
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>you established a brand, and then you just throw it away?
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06:27<andythenorth>changed devzone
06:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what a vandal I am :O
06:27<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: not like that ever happens in the commercial world :)
06:27<andythenorth>‘brand’ :P
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and almost every time they regret it afterwards
06:27<andythenorth>I’ll live
06:27<andythenorth>well not forever
06:28<andythenorth>but this won’t be the worst mistake I’ll make
06:30<andythenorth>anyone want to rename it on bananas? o_O
06:30<andythenorth>does /me dare highlight truebr*in?
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06:34<andythenorth>released
06:34<andythenorth>now just have to finish Road Hog :P
06:34<andythenorth>then I can stop doing newgrfs
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06:37<andythenorth>until it’s time to do FIRS 2 :(
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06:40<andythenorth>Feature: sucks less
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07:09<NGC3982>Bah, i managed to set the wrong autoclean on all my servers
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07:13<NGC3982>And everyone got canned.
07:13<NGC3982>By the way, i use the reload_cfg in my configs to make the same settings and NewGRF's apply each automatic (by end year) restart. The bad thing is that the map seed is the same, and so is the map. How can i scramble the seed but not the rest?
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07:51<Rubidium>NGC3982: maybe removing the seed setting from the config file helps
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09:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: think this is valid? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6495
09:21*andythenorth trying to kill open issues
09:26<frosch123>you can either remove the '&& echo "cc"' part or replace the '2>' with '&>'
09:27<frosch123>but in any case it looks weird to me :p
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09:31<andythenorth>I have zero knowledge, and no way to test
09:31<andythenorth>bbl
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10:17<andythenorth>so
10:18<andythenorth>any way for a vehicle to know what date the cargo was generated?
10:18<andythenorth>or is that a non-concept?
10:19<frosch123>that's a non-concept :p
10:19<frosch123>there is cargo age
10:19<andythenorth>in days?
10:19<frosch123>but it is not the real date, but modified by the cargo-aging-property
10:19<andythenorth>ah
10:19<andythenorth>nvm
10:19<andythenorth>if the answer is conclusive ‘no’ then I’ll ignore the problem
10:20<frosch123>in any case, the cargo age does not say anything about traveltime in a specific vehicle
10:20<frosch123>due to transfers
10:21<frosch123>other than that, i have no idea what the problem is :p
10:21<frosch123>just use the date-of-last-service
10:21<frosch123>and tell players to send vehicles to depots :p
10:21<andythenorth>got some date-sensitive cargo sprites
10:22<andythenorth>they flip on current_date at the moment
10:22<andythenorth>which is odd, but not the worst thing
10:22<frosch123>just use the service-date
10:22<frosch123>you can also repaint the vehicle then
10:22<andythenorth>wouldn’t work for me
10:22<andythenorth>breakdowns off
10:23<andythenorth>and road vehicles don’t service without explicit orders
10:23<andythenorth>and setting explicit orders is boring
10:23<@Alberth>turn on breakdowns :p
10:23<andythenorth>breakdowns are tedious yak-shaving
10:23<andythenorth>having to set service orders for everything
10:24<andythenorth>it’s just clicks for nothing
10:24<andythenorth>:)
10:24<@Alberth>if you turn on servicing, RVs should service themselves, right?
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10:25<@Alberth>at least, when you have a depot near enough
10:25<andythenorth>they don’t
10:25<andythenorth>they happily drive past depots
10:26<@peter1138>They do.
10:26<andythenorth>servicing has been borked for years
10:26<@peter1138>Dunno what game you play, but for me they do service.
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10:35<@Alberth>indeed, just tried it. http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Loosvorst_Transport_1950-11-09.sav watch how it fails to not get serviced after loading/unloading pax
10:36<@Alberth>maybe you enabled the "disable servicing when breakdowns are off" ?
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10:36<frosch123>"fails to not"? :p
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10:38<@Alberth>yep, it fails to skip servicing :)
10:56<andythenorth>I’ll play a game with breakdowns on and post a save when it happens
10:57<@Alberth>this is without breakdowns, but with servicing
10:59<andythenorth>well me asserting it is worth nothing without evidence :P
10:59<andythenorth>it’s the main reason I’ve turned breakdowns off though
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13:11<Gantradies>errm.. this is a bit of an odd question, but is there any way to "
13:11<Gantradies>"fix" a station after it ends up with the wrong cargo delivered to,
13:12<Gantradies> e.g a large station that is the hub for a big oil shipping settup getting oilk in the station near teh refinery?
13:12<Gantradies>i donty even know what caused it this itme, ther's no rigs or wells in range of the station catchment area
13:12<frosch123>nope, still not implemented
13:12<@Alberth>not in stable, afaik
13:13<frosch123>hmm, otoh... i think it now stops when the rating drops to low
13:13<frosch123>no idea when that was added, or whether i dreamt
13:14<frosch123>- Feature: Cancel cargo delivery from industries/houses to stations after about 21 months of not having picked up any of the cargo (r26582) <- ah, indeed, 1.5 stuff
13:19<Gantradies> it odesnt seem to
13:19<Gantradies> iave got a station at a factory ( too large with too many different veciicle chains depending on it) to raze,
13:19<Gantradies> thats slowly filling up with grain and livestock and i SWEAR to god the arent any farms in its catchment anymore T_T
13:20<Gantradies>the problem with that,
13:20<Gantradies> is it assumes you have set every single vechicle goign ot the station in question manually to unload only ect
13:20<Gantradies> or have teh time ot manually change the orders of several hundred
13:21<@Alberth>euhm, you know about shared orders?
13:21<Gantradies>woudlnt mind an butto to reset the statiosns accept status for a particular cargo back ot the origional one/ dump it out
13:21<Gantradies> i.. ermm. only found trhe wiki page on them yesterday
13:21<@Alberth>well, it's fixed in the nighlies / next stable
13:22<@Alberth>ie 1.5
13:22<Gantradies> no, i didnt. i havent been looking up much aobut the gmae for the last year and a half
13:22<Gantradies>* is "enjoying" the irony of his rating plummeting because the oil refinery is literally submerged in oil it cant use*
13:23<Gantradies> my whining aobut my own stupidity asside, i dont suppose there's going to be an ability ot click-and-drag whiel buying land?
13:24<Gantradies>having to lcick everfy single square has irritated me since the retail version
13:24<@Alberth>even if you can destroy the station and build a new one, you're going to have to fix the orders, or you get in the same problems again
13:24<@Alberth>why do you buy land at all?
13:26<@Alberth>and the reason for not adding it so far is that it's too easy to make MP completely impossible to play competitively
13:28<LordAro>why not add it to single player only?
13:30<@Alberth>why do you buy large amounts of tiles as SP ?
13:41<andythenorth>prevent towns expanding where you plan airports
13:41<andythenorth>?
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13:44<andythenorth>hmm
13:44*andythenorth can feel stupid.gs creeping closer
13:44<andythenorth>it’s inevitably going to happen
13:44<andythenorth>a whole new spec for andythenorth misunderstand
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13:53<Zeether>hi
13:53<FLHerne>Zeether: Good evening
13:55<Zeether>so I dunno if it's me but it feels slow starting out in openttd because I do the usual coal route but it takes a while to profit
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can make the start faster with higher max loan or lower purchase cost (make the running costs higher if you want difficulty)
13:57<Zeether>I got lower costs on, don
13:58<Zeether>don't really touch loans though
13:59<andythenorth>depending on newgrfs, do pax between 2 cities with 1k+ populations
13:59<andythenorth>about 30-60 tiles apart
13:59<andythenorth>needs fast trains
13:59<andythenorth>high initial cost, but prints money
14:00<Zeether>I always start with coal, run the fast forward then when I have enough cash I just build up cities
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14:03<Zeether>the japan newgrf has trains that go fast on curves which is nice
14:06<mgpl>hey guys, i wanna go back to playing. is it worth waiting for 1.5 release? or should i go with 1.4. i mean will 1.5 be released this year or its still an unknown
14:07<@Alberth>the next week or so is EXTREMELY unlikely :)
14:07<mgpl>ok thanks :)
14:07<@Alberth>not in the last place because there have not been any beta or RC releases
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14:14<Zeether>has anyone tried a-train before? I got 8 but compared to openttd it's pretty odd and the learning curve's a bit steep
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14:18<mgpl>i played a-train on an amiga500. it was great ;)
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14:22<Zeether>there's a 3DS version coming here, which I was surprised at since I was sure it was gonna be japan only
14:24<mgpl>so many long nights and homework not done because of a-train. ahh the memories..
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14:26<Zeether>a-train is probably why I love the Japanese newgrfs
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15:01<andythenorth>too many zellepins
15:01<andythenorth>below the trees
15:06<andythenorth>hmm
15:06<andythenorth>how long should the vehicles be in / | and \ angles?
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15:17<Wolf01>the same length of the - angle, you fool
15:17<Wolf01>since when a rotating vehicle change its length
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15:21<Wolf01>http://www.psy.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/Shepardillusion.jpg see, they have the same size
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15:31<NGC3982>Rubidium: Simply leaving it with no value?
15:31<NGC3982>I guess i could try.
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15:36<Rubidium>Wolf01: the length of a vehicle depends of the frame of reference (even in the real world)
15:36<Rubidium>Wolf01: having said that, how can you say both objects in that image are the same size?
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15:38<Rubidium>e.g. the left one can be at 1 angstrom distance and the other at 1 parsec, then the right one is definitely bigger ;)
15:39<Wolf01>ok, but if you measure the sides, they are the same, just rotated of 90°
15:39<Rubidium>NGC3982: remove the whole line with seed, assuming you use -x that will not add it and "fill" it with the default "generate new seed"-value
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15:40<NGC3982>I see
15:40<Rubidium>Wolf01: well, the height of the left one is about 70 pixels, the right one 50 pixels ;)
15:40<NGC3982>I do not use -x today.
15:40<NGC3982>I'll try it.
15:42<Wolf01>not the height, the red square
15:42<andythenorth>20px in — view is 12px in / view
15:43<andythenorth>so 24px in — view should be 14.4px
15:43<andythenorth>maths innit
15:44<Wolf01>draw it how do you want, just draw it pleasing to see :)
15:44<Wolf01>it's still an illusion
15:45<andythenorth>well if I draw it wrong
15:45<andythenorth>it looks wrong :P
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: there are so many things wrong with your so-called "illusion"
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's like you show an apple and a pear and then tell people "these are the same shape"
15:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27087 trunk/src/disaster_vehicle.cpp (2014-12-21 20:49:15 UTC)
15:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26864): the shadow bit of disaster vehicles got cleared after being set to show a shadow
15:52<andythenorth>wookey wookey wookey
16:03<LordAro>a non-translator commit? lies
16:06<andythenorth>bloody articulated trucks
16:06<andythenorth>and their offsets
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16:16<andythenorth>also I had better draw some more truck cabs
16:16<andythenorth>instead of copying-pasting all the not-so-good ones into every spritesheet
16:16<Wolf01>'night
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16:30<andythenorth>also
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16:57<Zeether>are ro-ros better for cash making then terminii since the train has to cover a little more distance
17:00<@planetmaker>g'evening
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17:00<@planetmaker>Zeether, doesn't matter. overall speed of cargo from station to station is important ;)
17:03<Rubidium>well... technically ro-ros could bring more income (since the time for turning around isn't needed), but it requires that the "full" ro-ro route is the same as the termini route, but then the "empty" ro-ro route is longer than the termini route so it takes longer and thus incurs more running costs
17:04<Rubidium>so in the end termini routes, assuming you have enough capacity, can be better cash makers
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17:04<Zeether>I'm trying to remember how I made so much cash because I used to be on a server where I got really rich
17:05<Zeether>right now I'm playing with Japan newgrfs and using terminii but my stations only have 2 tracks each
17:05<Rubidium>but that requires an entry/exit of the terminus station that does not have significant collision points between entering and leaving trains
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17:07<Zeether>kinda wish there was a good server for just building stuff and not competition, btpro is too tough for me
17:07<Rubidium>#openttdcoop welcome server?
17:07<Zeether>didn't know if that was any good, might try it
17:09<Rubidium>the most efficient terminus station layout isn't even on the wiki page :(
17:09<@planetmaker>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2007/10/10/terminus-station-tutorial/ <-- I would think :)
17:09<Zeether>I'm too afraid to use more than 2 track stations I guess because I always have 2 tracks going in different directions
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17:11<@planetmaker>don't use stations as junctions.
17:11<Rubidium>planetmaker: not the one I have in mind, and mine is probably more efficient ;)
17:11<@planetmaker>have each station track always go every possible direction and you'll be totally fine to use a 64-tracks station
17:12<@planetmaker>actually even a 128 or 256 tracks station works then fine :)
17:14<Zeether>http://i.imgur.com/s0QMDzi.png
17:14<Rubidium>https://wiki.openttd.org/File:Sharedepicterminus.png <- I guess that's the one you should aim for in the begin due to simplicity
17:14<Zeether>this is what I did
17:16<@planetmaker>Rubidium, actually I'd rather recommend to use path signals in front of the crossings. But that requires at least on train length waiting space between the vertical entry track and the cross in front of the station
17:17<@planetmaker>but then, that's optimizing on a high level ;)
17:17<@planetmaker>and the gain is minimal
17:17<@planetmaker>but noticable at high load (continuous train input)
17:18<@planetmaker>however that station in the image is over-sized, 8 tracks should always suffice, if it's a drop station
17:20<Zeether>is that station I did in need of improvement
17:20<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/terminus.png <- in case of a drop off, in case of a pick up I'd made the enties slightly longer and put signals near the station
17:20<Rubidium>but then, with more than 6 platforms you usually need more than one entry/exit line
17:21<@planetmaker>yup, that's what I meant with over-sized :)
17:21<@planetmaker>but for a pick-up with varying output, the size might just be appropriate to accomodate for some fluctuations in load time
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18:04<Zeether>welp
18:05<Zeether>joined openttdcoop, no room for me to build
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20:06<argoneus>g'night m'trainfriends
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20:37<Zeether>I had to revamp a shinkansen line because it was causing a jam
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21:10<Flygon>Zeether: So basically the reason the SCMaglev is being built irl
21:16<Zeether>lol
21:16<Zeether>that maglev is in the Japan NewGRF!
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't it be?
21:21<Zeether>dunno
21:21<Zeether>forgot how long that was in development
21:21<Zeether>although it isn't the fastest openttd train, that honor goes to the vacuum tube ones
21:22<Zeether>...which elon musk is trying to make IRL
21:22<Supercheese>I'd rather have the xkcd loop-de-loop train
21:24<Zeether>I wish I could do cyclotrons in openttd but that seems a bit advanced
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21:30<Eddi|zuHause>cyclotrons always seemed rather pointless
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21:39<hsknz>:)
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22:29<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, the linux version of beyond earth has some really really annoying graphics flickering in the terrain
22:31<Zeetherdroid>How is that anyway
22:31<Zeetherdroid>I heard it was underwhelming
22:33<Supercheese>It's fun enough
22:34<Supercheese>although I never played the original alpha centauri
22:34<Supercheese>so I cannot comment how it compares
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23:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, i can't really comment on that until it is actually playable...
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23:28<Zeetherdroid>I like SMAC but I am bad at it
23:28<Zeetherdroid>Apparently it's easy to get good at
---Logclosed Mon Dec 22 00:00:52 2014