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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-27

---Logopened Sat Dec 27 00:00:59 2014
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03:28<andythenorth>hi hi
03:28<andythenorth>maybe today is GS saturday
03:29<andythenorth>probably depends if I am 100% in-demand by my kids
03:30<@Alberth>as in, make a GS ?
03:32<@Alberth>I had a preliminary GS idea too yesterday, just ask for delivery of random amount of random cargo, at random spot in the world (with some restrictions, so you actually get feasible requests)
03:32<@Alberth>amounts doesn't have to be big
03:33<@Alberth>just query 3-5 at the same time so the use can choose what to do, or what to do first
03:34<@Alberth>I was still pondering score
03:43<andythenorth>number of challenges complete in 100 years
03:43<andythenorth>100 to be player configurable
03:44<andythenorth>the actual ‘win’ doesn’t matter for GS imho
03:44<andythenorth>just gives a direction to the game, instead of pure sandbox
03:47<andythenorth>Alberth: is it a fixed quantity to be delivered, a fixed quantity within a deadline, or a fixed amount per year?
03:48<@Alberth>don't know, I was pondering to have a slowly decreasing score, so you cannot get 100% ever
03:49<@Alberth>but any of the above will do, imho
03:49<andythenorth>I think it’s most relaxed with fixed quantity, like a directed sandbox
03:49<andythenorth>fixed amount per year is quite intense, lots of network maintaining
03:49<@Alberth>sounds fine to me
03:49<@Alberth>(the former, fixed quantity)
03:50<@Alberth>can always be extended to other forms :)
03:50<andythenorth>“can’t get 100% ever” sounds a bit like Dwarf Fortress
03:50<andythenorth>which I haven’t played :)
03:50<@Alberth>me neither :)
03:50<andythenorth>I dunno, for single-player I don’t know if much score is needed
03:50<@Alberth>but it opens the road to competition with yourself
03:50<andythenorth>my kids play lots of casual games with no win conditions
03:50<andythenorth>just constant mini-challenges
03:51<andythenorth>I am not -1 to scores and win conditions, just can’t think of any
03:51<@Alberth>sounds fine
03:51<andythenorth>“there is a zombie convention in Milan, deliver 75 carloads of zombies"
03:51<@Alberth>it needs to create challenges first, before you can consider winning or scoring at all
03:52<andythenorth>“the mayor of Amsterdam is building a new statue of himself, deliver 75 loads of steel"
03:52<andythenorth>so…NoCarGoal and SV both have very black/white win conditions
03:52<@Alberth>he'd probably order a complete statue :p
03:52<andythenorth>which is fun
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03:53<@Alberth>NoCargoGoal has few challenges, and then you have to wait
03:54<@Alberth>SV is a LOT of work, the few times I played it
03:54<andythenorth>SV focuses a whole network
03:54<@Alberth>imho it should have small challenges, and concentrate on getting infra structure
03:54<andythenorth>it’s fun, but I’ve done SV to death
03:55<@Alberth>large amount of cargo is not that interesting, imho
03:55<andythenorth>the idea I was kicking around with pikka was constant mini-challenges
03:55<@Alberth>you can of course stack small challenges on top of each other
03:55<andythenorth>of different kinds
03:56*andythenorth thinks
03:56<@Alberth>once you have delivered steel for the statue, ask for double or triple that amount in the same time (or even first measure the rate of delivery)
03:57<@Alberth>but just simple small challenges seems like a nice idea for now
03:57<andythenorth>so my problem with sandbox...
03:58<andythenorth>I never get any attachment to the game, because there’s no end goal or achievement
03:58<andythenorth>the only achievements are (1) being profitable (2) seeing how long before I get bored
03:59<andythenorth>the cargo challenges solve that, but they require quite ruthless gameplay
03:59<@Alberth>not sure you can do anything else with a game that one played for say, a decade
03:59<andythenorth>ottd is quite good for tinkering, but that gets put aside in a cargo goal game
04:00<andythenorth>it would be nice to have obscure goals, like connecting small towns etc
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04:01<andythenorth>connnect all the towns on one island
04:01<@Alberth>I was considering to have both industries and towns as targets for cargo
04:01<@Alberth>and I have no problem with a flag 'no industries' and 'no towns'
04:01<andythenorth>main player activities seem to be: build routes, deliver cargo, fund industries
04:02<andythenorth>what else is fun to do?
04:02<@Alberth>baby-sitting a town seems a popular play style, although I somewhat fail to see why
04:02<@Alberth>but I am not much of a 'town' player
04:03<andythenorth>I don’t like baby-sitting towns
04:04<andythenorth>town population just seems to be a proxy for ‘score'
04:04<andythenorth>why not just have a score?
04:04<@Alberth>and it's not a challenge that you can fail, I think. You need X amounts to get growth. If you fail, you just don't get growth
04:05<andythenorth>“Universal Maglev have offerered you a discount on their new train, if you build 10 by the end of the year”
04:05<@Alberth>perhaps in MP where the goal is to first reach a population of X
04:06<@Alberth>money doesn't seem interesting to me, we all have plenty of the stuff
04:06<andythenorth>“Ponningville streets are congested, the town council want a metro transporting 50% of population"
04:06<@Alberth>^^ that would be nicer
04:07<@Alberth>did you look at gs-awards?
04:07<andythenorth>is there a docs section for it?
04:07<@Alberth>that sounds somewhat like a collection of achievements
04:08<andythenorth>most of the casual games I play have some kind of awards thing
04:08<andythenorth>I find them a bit meaningless, but they set up the challenges I guessed
04:08<andythenorth>although some are really stupid
04:08<andythenorth>oh those I see
04:09<andythenorth>yeah, that’s the kind of awards that bore me :)
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04:09<@Alberth>very few people play true casual games
04:09<@Alberth>you also see that with OpenTTD, lots of people seek some form of challenge in the game :)
04:10<@Alberth>so for selling a game, it's obligatory, I think
04:10<andythenorth>so ‘deliver x amount to location z’ is fine
04:10<andythenorth>for a starting point
04:10<andythenorth>the main thing is to offer 3-5 challenges, and how to report on progress
04:10<andythenorth>I think the challenges would be extensible later
04:11<andythenorth>needs a name, and a repo
04:11<@Alberth>the one thing I always miss in nocargoal is an extrapolation of finishing time
04:12<andythenorth>expand on that?
04:12<@Alberth>it says year x month y, z% delivered
04:12<@Alberth>but not when 100% will be reached
04:12<andythenorth>so a rate function
04:12<andythenorth>at current rate, 3 years
04:13<@Alberth>something like that would be useful imho
04:14<andythenorth>animal name?
04:14<andythenorth>or something else?
04:14<@Alberth>challenge-goals, contract-gs ?
04:14<andythenorth>Eager Beaver?
04:14<andythenorth>Busy Bee?
04:14<@Alberth>spiffy :)
04:14<@Alberth>I like the latter
04:15<andythenorth>could shorten it to
04:15<@Alberth>changing to 'hive' in MP :p
04:15<andythenorth>Busy Bees
04:16<andythenorth>make an AI to play it
04:16<@Alberth> :)
04:16<@Alberth>tbh I have no idea how to code a GS
04:17<andythenorth>me neither, but that’s my default state for all programming
04:17<andythenorth>some would say I have no idea how to code a newgrf either :)
04:18<@Alberth>including yourself :)
04:18<andythenorth>not sure whether to start with Zuu’s
04:18<andythenorth>or work backwards from SV
04:19<andythenorth>probably the ‘current goal progress’ function is the most important
04:20<andythenorth>goal generation can be quite dumb initially
04:20<andythenorth>and players don’t need to choose goals initiallly
04:21<@Alberth>I would start from scratch first, to get an idea what I am doing :)
04:22<@Alberth> apparently
04:23<@Alberth>hmm, doesn't explain it at all :(
04:23<andythenorth>target trunk, not a released version? Bleeding edge…
04:23<@Alberth>yeah, aiming for 1.5 :p
04:24<@Alberth>but trunk-only is fine too by me
04:26*andythenorth waits for the repo
04:27<andythenorth>there must be some kind of loop which calls the GS every n ticks or whatever
04:27<andythenorth>and probably some kind of persistent data structures?
04:29<@Alberth>hmm, still lots of old 32bpp graphics pages at the wiki
04:29<@planetmaker>moin moin :)
04:30<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
04:31<@Alberth>hi hi
04:31<andythenorth>repo is up
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04:36<@Alberth>am I supposed to use bin/game for my GS-es? it's filled with compatibility files
04:36<@planetmaker>afaik yes
04:36<andythenorth>mine appear to be in there
04:37<andythenorth>also some in content_download/game
04:38<@Alberth>that's automagic downloaded stuff
04:38<@Alberth>you're not supposed to touch that, although I break that rule all the time :)
04:38<andythenorth>is that name just a convention?
04:38*andythenorth is looking at SV and NCG
04:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: written much GS? o_O
04:39<@Alberth>probably, "extends AIInfo" stuff is the crucial bit I think
04:39<andythenorth>or extends GSInfo
04:39<andythenorth>in this case :)
04:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth, writen no GS at all
04:40<andythenorth>care to begin? o_O
04:40<@planetmaker>Would mean more unfinished projects :)
04:41<@Alberth>4 space indenting?
04:41<andythenorth>Alberth: my editor is set that way
04:41<andythenorth>seems to be the convention in other GS
04:41<andythenorth>that work for you?
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04:43*andythenorth wonders how to reload GS
04:45<andythenorth>got it selectable by player
04:45<andythenorth>does nothing :P
04:45*andythenorth pushes
04:49<@planetmaker>you got to reload the savegame, afaik. Not sure the file is re-read, though
04:49<@Alberth>yeah 4 spaces is fine
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04:51*andythenorth trying to make a script that tells you a joke at game start
04:51<@Alberth>euhm, you're using tabs :)
04:52<andythenorth>ah copy-paste
04:53<@Alberth>shall I fix?
04:53<andythenorth>doing it
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04:55<andythenorth>can’t find docs for GetAPIVersion
04:55<andythenorth>maybe it’s just strings, and ‘trunk’ is acceptable?
04:56<@Alberth>pushed small fixes
04:57<@Alberth>I would expect "1.5" tbh
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05:00<andythenorth>seems to work with trunk
05:02<@Alberth>tick example seems to work
05:03<@Alberth>commit main.nut?
05:06<andythenorth>go ahead
05:06<andythenorth>I have one locally that is empty and crashes
05:06<andythenorth>I won’t miss it
05:06<andythenorth>make it tell a random joke every time it runs?
05:07<andythenorth>I find it helpful to learn by doing something stupid first :)
05:07<andythenorth>reduces the amount of bad design baked into the actual thing I’m making
05:10<@Alberth>hmm, how to make a random number
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05:20<@Alberth>math.rand, and Math.rand are both not recgonized on "[mM]ath" it needs some import or so, probably
05:27<@Alberth>nice, language reference has no "import" :p
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05:46<andythenorth>looks like there is an equivalent of python random.choice()
05:47<andythenorth>also GSBase.RandRange(3)
05:47<andythenorth>is in superlib
05:47<andythenorth>and GSBase.Rand()
05:47<andythenorth>Alberth: ^ ?
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05:48<@Alberth>ah, sounds useful
05:48<@Alberth>no idea how to use anything from math tbh
05:48<@Alberth>maybe it's even broken
05:54<@Alberth>andythenorth: pushed a main.nut
05:54<@Alberth>(and a merge)
06:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: pushed examining + printing of cargoes
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06:03*andythenorth pulls
06:06*andythenorth needs to figure out how to read logs
06:06<andythenorth>oh, debug panel
06:06<andythenorth>“You are in a lake"
06:07<andythenorth>go north :P
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06:16<@Alberth> :p
06:19<andythenorth>you have 3 gold coins, 2 arrows, and a smelly fish
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06:59*andythenorth tries to make GSNews() work
06:59<andythenorth>I don’t understand the notation style in the docs yet
07:02<@Alberth>most likely just a company number
07:02<andythenorth>looks like there’s a constant COMPANY_SELF
07:03<andythenorth>GSCompany.ResolveCompanyID(COMPANY_SELF) fails though
07:04<@Alberth>I would hope so, as the GS is not a company, unless you do something with GSCompanyMode
07:05<@Alberth>I would expect that GSCompany.COMPANY_FIRST to ... _LAST gives a range of company numbers
07:06<@Alberth>then use GSCompany::ResolveCompanyID(c) to filter the invalid companies out, or so
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07:19<Jinassi>anyone see my post from a day ago? seems like someone is anxious to make a trailer for openttd by injecting code to get cash and/or other stuff and thus creating a desync and making other players desync too. Luaduck has a plan to make or adjust a server, so you have a say in it too(probably pulling logs, troubleshooting if there's time, etc)
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07:23<@Alberth>not seen it at tt-forums
07:23<Jinassi>posted it here
07:25<Jinassi>Thread was deleted, hence the snapshot
07:27<@Alberth>I don't understand what you're saying
07:27<@Alberth>someone is trying to hack openttd, and failing, ..... ?
07:28<Jinassi>and desyncing, perhaps thats one of the reasons
07:29<@Alberth>oh, right. Yeah, it would desync sooner or later
07:31<@peter1138>Hey guys, I hacked it so my client thinks I have more than the server does...
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07:32<Jinassi>just giving a heads up tho, thought you might want to know
07:34<@Alberth>ok, thanks for letting us know. No idea how to use that information though :(
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07:42<andythenorth>time out :(
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08:00<romazoon>andy: i tried road hoag nightlies from last night, thanks, it s indeed a tad smoother in my cities
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08:34<Wolf01>hi hi
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09:34<andythenorth>so in Squirrel, “function CompanyData::CreateGoals()” is similar to a python class function?
09:35<andythenorth>it’s scoped to CompanyData class?
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09:40<@Alberth>seems that way
09:41<@Alberth>I don't understand why you can also state it in the class part however, maybe part of the public interface?
09:45<andythenorth>I just made a news message appear btw
09:45<andythenorth>small victories :P
09:46<@Alberth>\o/ actually
09:48<@Alberth> builds a map of cargoes and what they are
09:48<@Alberth>quite stuck what to do next though
09:48<andythenorth>build a list of destinations and sources
09:49<@Alberth>GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting::GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting ( CargoID  cargo_id  )  ?
09:49<andythenorth>how do I do equivalent of ‘reset’ on a mercurial repo?
09:49<andythenorth>stack overflow doesn’t know either
09:49<andythenorth>I guess I just rm it and clone again
09:49<@Alberth>probably hg revert
09:50<@Alberth>depends on what you want to do
09:50<@Alberth>hg rollback undoes the last commit
09:50<@Alberth>or last action, even
09:50<@Alberth>hg revert goes back to the last committed state iirc
09:50<andythenorth>I wanted to bin an attempted merge
09:50<andythenorth>and lose all my changes
09:51<andythenorth>but I was stuck with all the LOCAL / REMOTE lines in my files
09:51<andythenorth>anyway I binned the repo
09:51<@Alberth>warning: conflicts during merge.
09:51<@Alberth>merging info.nut incomplete! (edit conflicts, then use 'hg resolve --mark')
09:51<@Alberth>0 files updated, 0 files merged, 0 files removed, 1 files unresolved
09:51<@Alberth>use 'hg resolve' to retry unresolved file merges or 'hg update -C .' to abandon
09:51<@Alberth>probably just hg update
09:52<andythenorth>I’ll try that next time
09:52<@Alberth>it didn't give this text?
09:53<andythenorth>pdq2s-MacBook-Pro-2:busy-bee-gs andy $ hg up
09:53<andythenorth>0 files updated, 0 files merged, 0 files removed, 0 files unresolved
09:53<andythenorth>pdq2s-MacBook-Pro-2:busy-bee-gs andy $ hg commit -m "Change: make a news message appear (annoying)"
09:53<andythenorth>abort: unresolved merge conflicts (see hg help resolve)
09:53<andythenorth>if 0 files are unresolved, then why I have to fix unresolved merge conflicts I don’t know
09:53<andythenorth>I have fallen out of love with hg tbh
09:53<andythenorth>but anyway
09:53<+michi_cc>andythenorth: "or 'hg update -C .' to abandon" ,aybe?
09:54<andythenorth>maybe, next time
09:54<andythenorth>I pushed the news message
09:55<andythenorth>Alberth: so we need lists of cargo destination/source pairs?
09:55<andythenorth>and possibly the distance between them?
09:55<@Alberth>seems plausible
09:56*andythenorth has ideas about different flavours of goal, long distance versus short distance etc
09:56<andythenorth>might be too map-dependent though
09:57<@Alberth>I think you normally have both
10:00*andythenorth making lang work
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10:12*andythenorth pushes lang
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10:22<andythenorth>pushed a goal question dialog
10:26<andythenorth>I need to look at the story book
10:26<andythenorth>will do that next
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11:41<@Alberth> trying to find 2 industries, but it doesn't make sense, it believes the coal mine accepts and produces oil :)
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27099 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2014-12-27 17:45:27 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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13:19<smoke_fumus>streaming right now. already made pixelart board :D
13:22<andythenorth>Alberth: maybe the coal mine does that? But we never noticed? o_O
13:23<@Alberth>you'd hope you'd also get an oil well and a oil refinery in that case "p
13:27<@Alberth>maybe the data doesn't get properly copied or so, although I would expect more people to have problems in that case
13:33<andythenorth>so L9 is logging “accept oil…”?
13:33<andythenorth> I need to try the paste I guess, just reading it while I feed child #2
13:34<@Alberth>I may need to dig in the c++ code to understand what is happening
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13:37<@Alberth> number of industries looks right, judging by the map (1 accept, 1 produce)
13:39<argoneus>why is steins;gate such a masterpiece :(
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13:56<andythenorth>SV probably uses the accept function
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14:36<andythenorth>cargo PASS is reported as having town effect?
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14:47<@Alberth>apparently, type 1
14:47<@Alberth>  TE_PASSENGERS,
14:48<@Alberth>seems useful :)
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14:55<andythenorth>Alberth: I tried logging GSLog.Info(GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting(cid))
14:55<andythenorth>reports the same hash for every cargo
14:55<andythenorth>I dunno how squirrel works, but in python, I would expect the same object id for every list of industries accepting a cargo...
14:55<andythenorth>wouldn’t *
14:56<@Alberth>yeah, I vaguely remember a problem in AI with lists
14:56<andythenorth>that function isn’t used in SV, NCG or Superlib, so maybe nobody has tried it
14:56<andythenorth>that function = GSIndustryList_CargoAccepting
14:57<@Alberth>quite likely
14:57<@Alberth>I'll need to dig in the c++ code
14:59<andythenorth>hmm it’s inconsistent, sometimes the hash varies
15:00<@Alberth>perhaps the garbage collector of squirrel
15:01<andythenorth>I’ll poke in the story book for a bit
15:01<@Alberth>the other option is to check industry type (mapping cargo -> good ind types), and then walk through the industry list
15:03<andythenorth>@seen Zuu
15:03<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Zuu> EcoCarGoal? :-)
15:04<@Alberth>he drops in every now and then
15:04<andythenorth>said he would be busy this christmas
15:05<@Alberth>oh right, I read something along those lines
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15:06<andythenorth>are we doing it wrong?
15:06<andythenorth>no that’s a different function, similar name
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15:13<andythenorth>can’t see anything obviously wrong in script_industrylist.cpp
15:14<andythenorth>L26 or so
15:14<andythenorth>but by C++ is bad
15:14<andythenorth>my *
15:14<@Alberth>you should probably print the data to check what goes in
15:16<andythenorth>no idea how to do that :)
15:16<andythenorth>google was not my friend
15:17<@Alberth> AI also has it, so it's likely the same thing
15:19<@Alberth>it's unlikely that no AI ever used this function :)
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15:22<@Alberth>indeed, code looks fine on first sight
15:24<@Alberth> this is what pathzilla does
15:25<andythenorth>is that scoping a list before using it?
15:26<@Alberth>local indList = AIList(); indList.AddList(... cargo_accepting (... ) )
15:27<@Alberth>it does add for each cargo, which would seem to give a lot of duplicates to me
15:28*andythenorth experiments
15:28<@Alberth>doesn't work here
15:29<andythenorth>me neither
15:29<andythenorth>I get different length lists
15:29<andythenorth>but always industry index 0
15:32<@Alberth>Accept: adding industry 4
15:32<@Alberth>Accept: adding industry 10
15:32<@Alberth>Accept: adding industry 26
15:32<@Alberth>Producing: adding industry 8
15:32<@Alberth>Producing: adding industry 22 <-- c++ code seems to work
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15:41<@Alberth>foreach (accept_ind, _ in accept_inds) {
15:41<@Alberth>ie add ", _"
15:41<@Alberth>you get a pair of values for some reason
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16:04<@peter1138>20:54 < adept256> also the les paul sg is for midgets
16:04<@peter1138>20:54 < petern> Also his neck is massive.
16:04<@peter1138>20:54 < adept256> which doesn't surprise my when he gets a mandolin
16:04<@peter1138>20:54 < petern> (Is that relevant?)
16:04<@peter1138>20:54 < adept256> for the acoustic bass?
16:04<@peter1138>why did it paste 5 lines before asking me if i wanted to paste... :S
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 28 00:00:01 2014