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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-05

---Logopened Mon Jan 05 00:00:13 2015
00:54<Eddi|zuHause>Elyon: i'd assume 2-complement
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00:56<Elyon>Eddi|zuHause: that'd make sense. I'll toy around with it
01:03<Elyon>ah wonderful, `xoffset & 0xFF` works as expected in python
01:05<V453000>morning :)
01:05<Elyon>and you were right, it was 2's complement
01:06<Elyon>hiya V453000
01:06<V453000>hi :)
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02:29<Elyon>does grfcodec load the image again for each sprite even if the sprites use the same image?
02:33<Elyon>it seems it reloads the image for alternate (usually 32bpp) views
02:34<Elyon>so instead of loading a 40 million pixel image once, it loads it 3072 times ... hrm.
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03:41<Wolf01>hi o/
03:43<Elyon>good morning!
03:46<Elyon>so, about grfcodec ... is there any way to have it retain more images in memory? I just need two images there, really ...
03:46<Elyon>compiling is slooow with reloading the same image over and over
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04:34<supermop>yo
04:36<Elyon>hiya
04:37<Elyon>hmm, is it normal behaviour for childsprites to be occasionally occluded by the tiles behind them, even when their groundsprite has 16x16x50 bounding box?
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04:42<Eddi|zuHause>if you make bounding boxes too large, or they overlap in weird ways, the algorithm can't figure out anymore how it is supposed to look
04:43<@peter1138>There is an ongoing bug in recent versions related to that.
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>the problematic part in that is that if you fix the algorithm for your case, you probably break it for other cases
04:46<@peter1138>I meant to the flickering, not to impossible sorting.
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>oh, yeah. that exists, too
04:51<Elyon>well, the bounding box overlaps in very standard ways in that it's a 0,0,0 16,16,50 bb
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04:53<Elyon>should I try reducing zextent?
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>try in 1.4 first
04:53<Elyon>or just wait for even more recent version to fix the flickering bug?
04:54<Elyon>okay, hmm
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>to make sure it's not the above bug
04:55<Elyon>I'll look into it :) thanks
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06:59<dihedral>hello
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07:41<frosch123>Elyon: it is not a matter of bounding boxes
07:41<frosch123>parent sprites must include enough transparency to cover the childsprites
07:42<frosch123>since only the parent sprite is evaluated for clipping
07:42<frosch123>maybe we should change that inside ottd
07:42<frosch123>since so many people get it wrong
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27113 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-01-05 17:45:15 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by juanjo
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13:10<@planetmaker>good evening
13:12<Taede>ello
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13:29<@Alberth>evenink
13:31<V453000>yooooo
13:32<@planetmaker>o/
13:32<@planetmaker>happy new year everyone and so on :)
13:33<@Alberth>best wishes :)
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14:13<andythenorth>o/
14:14<@Alberth>o/
14:14<V453000>o/
14:14<V453000>andythenorth: CHIPS will soon get competition P
14:14<V453000>:P
14:15<andythenorth>game on
14:15<V453000>and we will make it better! :D
14:15<frosch123>V453000: andy has been looking for cats for quite some time
14:16<V453000>=D
14:16<V453000>true
14:17<andythenorth>aren’t they in PURR?
14:17<andythenorth>that was my guess anyway
14:17<andythenorth>but I’d rather someone else looked for me
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14:19<V453000>no, cats are in NUTS
14:19<V453000>and cats will be in CATS
14:19<andythenorth>station sets suck
14:19<andythenorth>the nfo is no fun
14:19<andythenorth>and the cargo display is really stupid
14:20<andythenorth>just saying
14:20<V453000>Elyon seems to be doing some magic with python processing
14:20<andythenorth>for python?
14:20<andythenorth>oops, for nfo?
14:20<V453000>for nfo
14:20<V453000>also
14:20<andythenorth>if he can write a parser-lexer to write out station nml he might as well fix nml for stations
14:20<andythenorth>bah station nfo
14:21*andythenorth should go and do other things
14:21<andythenorth>biab
14:21<V453000>he does some magic where cargo sprites show up on the platforms dynamically based on number of cargo on the platforms - supporting multiple cargoes on one platform
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14:21<V453000>XD cya
14:22<Wolf01>andythenorth, purchased the volvo from lego :)
14:25<Wolf01>http://reviews.lego.com/1360/499973/photo.jpg pfffft just noticed the size, I don't know where to place it :D
14:28<frosch123>send it to andy
14:31<Rubidium>talking about lego... did the lego leave Braunschweig?
14:34<andythenorth>V453000: ?
14:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: dig a hole with it, place it in the hole…
14:35<andythenorth>self-storing Lego
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14:43<Wolf01>I don't know if it could dig holes, usually they just load stuff from piles
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14:53<Elyon>for the record, it's she
14:56<oskari89>https://wiki.openttd.org/Heightmap
14:56<oskari89>Is there updated spec of heightmaps now available, since 255 height levels?
14:57<Elyon>isn't it just a linear conversion?
14:58<andythenorth>Elyon: hi :) sorry for assumed ‘he’
14:58<Elyon>not a worry in the world, and hi :)
14:58<andythenorth>sweeping gender imbalance = wrong assumptions :P
14:58<andythenorth>anyway, nml doesn’t have stations. Nobody figured it out
14:59<Elyon>mm. So anyway, I could have a look at porting stations to nml, BUUUT
14:59<andythenorth>it’s probably the only big gap in nml
14:59<Elyon>I have been using python for all of 4 days
14:59<andythenorth>oic
14:59<@Alberth>oskari89: heights in the image are scaled to the max height you set in the map
14:59<Elyon>it has kind of been my "blind spot", so I figured I'd generate CATS nfo stuff using python to learn both
15:00<frosch123>oskari89: sea level is pure black, the rest is scaled lineary
15:00<oskari89>Okay
15:01<frosch123>oskari89: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/4051ffa90aa8/src/heightmap.cpp#l367
15:01<andythenorth>Elyon: are you generating nfo directly, or using a templating module?
15:01<Elyon>directly
15:01<oskari89>How about water on different height levels, higher than sea level = river (as auto generated on heightmaps)
15:01<Elyon>well technically I wrote a templating module
15:02<@Alberth>oskari89: nope
15:02<oskari89>:(
15:03<frosch123>i wondered about not directly exposing the station spritelayout stuff to nml
15:03<frosch123>but instead emulate the industry/house/object style spritegroups
15:03<oskari89>Manyally placing rivers is such pain when there is 5-digit amount of lakes on scenario
15:03<@Alberth>you're welcome to implement the enhanced scenario idea oskari89
15:03<oskari89>*manually
15:03<frosch123>i.e. automatically generating the spritelayout callback and the spritelayout property
15:03<andythenorth>that would be a relief
15:03<andythenorth>I have real trouble understanding the station nfo
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15:04<andythenorth>maybe newgrf stations v2 :P
15:04<Elyon>:p
15:04<@Alberth>newnewstations :)
15:04<andythenorth>exactly
15:04<Elyon>andythenorth, it goes something like this (excerpt): https://paste.openttdcoop.org/py3h1vbzk
15:04<Elyon>newerstations
15:04<Elyon>quickerstop
15:05<andythenorth>newstations_v19_final_final_revised_final.doc
15:05<Elyon>loving it
15:05<andythenorth>^ a classic pattern for people who don’t have vcs
15:06<oskari89>Overlaying of rivers could be second option when making scenario
15:06<oskari89>(on a separate file after importing heightmap)
15:06<Elyon>when I find myself without a vcs for whatever reason, I just have one copy properly named, and all copies named sequentially __0_cats.py, __1_cats.py etc.
15:07<Elyon>anyway, what's inherently cumbersome/difficult regarding the current stations?
15:07<frosch123>oskari89: https://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format
15:07<Elyon>other than the fact you have to NFO it up?
15:08<andythenorth>it appears to follow a quite different format to industries, houses
15:08<andythenorth>or at least, I struggle to understand the station spec
15:08<andythenorth>whereas industries are easy
15:08<Elyon>hmm, well I haven't tried industries and only made nml houses
15:08<andythenorth>someone else might know better than me
15:08<andythenorth>I can barely edit CHIPS
15:09<frosch123>i guess the most difficult part is the weirdness of tilelayouts (not spritelayouts)
15:09<Elyon>yeah, I haven't gotten to those yet
15:09<frosch123>industries have proper industry tiles, objects and houses do not have them
15:09<frosch123>stations have them somewhat
15:09<frosch123>but only 8, and they come with arbitrary implications
15:10<andythenorth>apparently GRM enters the picture somehow also, or you need to manage compatibility with other sets
15:10<andythenorth>but that might be FUD
15:11<andythenorth>yexo and I got a lecture from OzTrans about it
15:11<@planetmaker>hm, I guess the lego awaits a re-use at the next re-union still
15:11<@planetmaker>^ Rubidium
15:11<Elyon>so uh ... sprite layouts lay out sprites in individual tiles, and tile layouts combine tiles to form "bigger" things, like the overpasses and stuff?
15:11<frosch123>andythenorth: there is no GRM for stations
15:11<andythenorth>hmm
15:11*andythenorth wonders what goes on in CHIPS
15:11<frosch123>the only still existing usecase for GRM are custom recolour sprite for vehicles
15:12<frosch123>all other use cases are obsolete
15:13<andythenorth>http://www.simuscape.net/simutalk/viewtopic.php?p=3328#p3328
15:13<Elyon>I wish I could understand enough of the structure of grfcodec to have it save more than one sprite in memory (which is what it seems to me that it is doing currently)
15:13<Elyon>s/sprite/sprite sheet
15:13<frosch123>andythenorth: obsolete with advanced sprite layouts and extended action1
15:14<andythenorth>hrm
15:14<andythenorth>does CHIPS need recoding? :P
15:14<andythenorth>probly not
15:14<andythenorth>it’s kind of done and dead
15:14<andythenorth>probably I should start CHIPS 2
15:15<andythenorth>CHIPS is horribly
15:15<andythenorth>horrible
15:15<Elyon>that is a lot of horror
15:15<andythenorth>yup
15:15<frosch123>Elyon: nml is faster in encoding than grfcodec, maybe you can code an nfo frontend for nml :p
15:15<Elyon>I've used it extensively
15:15<Elyon>frosch123: oh, so nml doesn't just build nfo and call grfcodec?
15:15<andythenorth>no
15:15<@planetmaker>it's two entirely different compilers
15:16<Elyon>wonderful
15:16<@planetmaker>like msvc to gcc to clang
15:16<andythenorth>although that route is possible, nml can output nfo
15:16<andythenorth>and imho it’s faster
15:16<andythenorth>currently
15:16<andythenorth>that might change
15:16<@planetmaker>you probably didn't test in the last 3 months, andythenorth ;)
15:16<Elyon>it's also built around the current design of ottd rather than endless extensions of grfcodec
15:16<Elyon>I think?
15:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: exactly not
15:17<Elyon>anyway I found 3000 sprites to compile in ~5 seconds, and ~40 minutes when I added alternates
15:17<andythenorth>have I missed an nml release? o_O
15:17<frosch123>Elyon: yes, grfcodec can only process one file at a time
15:17<Elyon>frosch123: makes aligning alternates a bit painful :/
15:18<frosch123>nml sorts the sprites per input file, and encodes them with opening each file only once, while not having to keep all files in memory
15:18<Elyon>although in fairness, it /does/ make you precalculate offsets quite intensively
15:18<Elyon>that sounds reasonable. So, nml stations it is. Eventually
15:18<andythenorth>you can make multiple calls to grfcodec and link the result, but it’s really ugly
15:18<frosch123>Elyon: if you have a useful intermediate format, we can patch nml to encode that instead
15:18<@planetmaker>dunno whether you missed frosch's performance commits, andythenorth :)
15:19<frosch123>i just don't like implementing a nfo reader, since it is not lr1
15:19<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes, reading devzone now
15:19<andythenorth>I knew it was being done, but then silence here, or I was away :)
15:19<frosch123>nfo is a horrible syntax to parse :)
15:19<@planetmaker>it probaby does not need entirely too much to teach stations to nml
15:19<frosch123>planetmaker: well, i did not commit the multi-threading :p
15:19<andythenorth>I’ll pull nml and compare later
15:19<andythenorth>where is the speed gain? parsing?
15:20<frosch123>no, sprite compression
15:20<Elyon>frosch123: I have no useful intermediate format. I have a python library that generates generic nfo stuff, but only very specific features are implemented; ie. the ones we need in CATS
15:20<andythenorth>ah
15:20<frosch123>the other improvements are uncommitted
15:20<andythenorth>someone had a much faster parser? Or did I imagine it?
15:20<frosch123>uncommited: some minor speedups to encoding, parser cache, ...
15:21<Elyon>is there a tentative spec for the nml stations other than http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Stations?
15:22<Elyon>or to put it differently: is there anything I can do while I wait for cats sprites? :3
15:23-!-dreck [~oftc-webi@bas1-ottawa08-1177885171.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
15:23<dreck>hi
15:23<Elyon>if nothing else then just toy around to gather experience about possible conundrums
15:23<Elyon>hiya
15:23<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2746 <-- there's this ancient issue, Elyon. But... as you see it's ancient and certainly it will need re-consideration
15:23<@planetmaker>or rather further thought
15:23<dreck>hows you elyon?
15:23<dreck>interesting nick too even
15:24<Elyon>?
15:24<Elyon>pm: hmm...
15:25<Elyon>well, that seems a bit old, yes. Although you don't want an interface for the nfo, but rather a further abstraction than what we see with houses/industries, yes?
15:25<Elyon>dreck: I'm fine, thanks. You?
15:25<dreck>doing ok..still trying sort a few different things out but mm eh
15:26<@planetmaker>there's nothing newer. And it's a start. And yes: an abstraction like for houses/industries is what will be nice
15:26<Elyon>mhm
15:26<Elyon>hmm
15:27<dreck>theres always that group grf project I still need to do a bit more of but meh it can always wait
15:27<Elyon>nml implementations are not subsets of what can be achieved with nfo, right?
15:27<Elyon>dreck, oh and which one is that?
15:28<@planetmaker>Elyon, nml needs to create a valid grf. Thus yes: nml can never do more than nfo. However nfo might require much more code lines
15:28<frosch123>that comparison does not work
15:29<frosch123>with nfo you can achieve everything by definition
15:29<Elyon>but I stated /subset/, not /superset/
15:29<frosch123>the goal of nml to achieve everything meaningful :)
15:29<Elyon>is nml intended to provide /exactly/ the same functionality eventually?
15:29<Elyon>ah, okay
15:29<Elyon>so deprecated/obsolete stuff is not implemented?
15:30<frosch123>nml lacks various minor things of various features
15:30<Elyon>such as ability to define new sprites or add vehicles
15:30<Elyon>>_>
15:30<Elyon><_<
15:30<frosch123>some things are handled automatically and not directly available to the user
15:30<frosch123>for example: nml does not allow to reserve vehicle ids via grm since that is obsolete
15:31<frosch123>nml does not allow encoding grfs with version != 8, since those are obsolete
15:31<Elyon>mm, that makes sense
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15:31<frosch123>nml does not implement the newer vehicle capacity system, since noone came up with a decent syntax
15:31<andythenorth>there’s a newer one? o_O
15:32<dreck>elyon well its basically a 'lite' japan set .. although someone did draw a few random individual sprites for usa too
15:32<andythenorth>oh two different cbs?
15:32<frosch123>andythenorth: i can link you to the two pretty pictures again :)
15:32<Elyon>dreck, what kind of set?
15:32<Elyon>full set?
15:32<andythenorth>frosch123: etched into my brain already
15:32<andythenorth>not an actual representation
15:32<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting <- 2.1 is the old one, 2.2. is the newer one
15:32<andythenorth>more like two spiders, fighting
15:33<andythenorth>yeah, fighting spiders
15:33<Elyon>:D
15:33<Elyon>for a db structure, it's not too bad
15:33<Elyon>but as a flowchart ... hrm
15:34<dreck>elyon full set but with a simplified trainset aside to localized industries
15:34<dreck>frosch heh interesting wiki page
15:34<Elyon>dreck, alright, sounds like quite a project
15:35<dreck>elyon not that much really. the only problem is its slow to get all the multi-piece sprites finished (and I'm not the one drawing due to little luck with diagonals on too many things myself heh)
15:35<frosch123>Elyon: 2.2. is my try of fixing the bugs with vehicle capacities and refitting. i achieved making it consistent, but i failed with making it easier :p
15:36<Elyon>relevantees: so, uhm, who or what or huh will a less ancient/vague specification make?
15:36<Elyon>frosch123, well consistency is pretty darn important
15:36<andythenorth>hmm, I should really scrap CHIPS, it’s rubbish. nml stations would be just what I needed....
15:38<Elyon>I was half tempted earlier to try and write some rudimentary grf compiler due to that ~40 minute compile time. I'd much rather work with nml, even if it turns out not-at-all fruitful
15:38<Elyon>worst case, I'll get some experience. Best case, you'll be one step closer to having nml station support :3
15:38*dreck is sticking to nfo for apparent compatibility reasons (but to our own)
15:39<Elyon>you have a choice?
15:41<dreck>not really
15:41-!-JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
15:44<V453000>dreck who will create such sprites? :0
15:44<V453000> "full set"
15:45<@planetmaker>dreck, what set requires nfo still?
15:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth, chips is anything but rubbish. It's my favourite station set when it comes to quickly eye-candying stations
15:48<andythenorth> /me is thinking what needs redesigned
15:48<@planetmaker>there's no other station set with a similar ease-to-use to effect ratio
15:48<andythenorth>first plan for next version is to offer individual tiles for every supported cargo type
15:48<andythenorth>I’m not sure if I can hide tiles in a game based on available cargos though
15:49<@planetmaker>isr is nice, but you spend ages clicking together your favourite stations. too much choice really ;)
15:49<andythenorth>having lots of tiles for non-available cargos would be ugly
15:49<@planetmaker>you can change availability based on that, I'd think
15:49<@planetmaker>thus effectively hide them
15:50<andythenorth>second idea is to offer three versions of each tile
15:50<@planetmaker>local_param = cargo_available("LABL")
15:50<andythenorth>low / medium / high capacity version of each tile
15:50<@planetmaker>if (local_param == 1) {
15:51<@planetmaker>err.... if (local_param != 1) { item(STATION, tile_id) { properties: { climate: 0; } } }
15:51<@planetmaker>or something
15:51<andythenorth>he
15:52<andythenorth>so CHIPS is really nice and easy to use, but in a game it looks hideous when a station has more than one cargo
15:52<andythenorth>constantly flipping between cargos, and looks worse on large stations
15:52<Elyon>cats will be a contender there, possibly
15:53<andythenorth>and the visual indicator for amounts waiting is barely useful
15:53<Elyon>if/when we get it done
15:53<andythenorth>because the information content of that varies so much by station
15:53<andythenorth>some stations 50t waiting is a lot, some stations 1000t waiting is not much at all
15:53<dreck>v453000 or can I still say mr.nut (heh?) a few different people actually. and planetmaker I still don't see anything in the tt threads/wiki about nml compatibility at all so with that in mind the sole choice was obvious anyway
15:54<dreck>andythenorth well I guess it depends on player..to me if the station has 1000t then theres clearly something too wrong with the train routing
15:54<Elyon>not really
15:54<andythenorth>yes it depends exactly on player
15:54<Elyon>could be a transfer station
15:54<Elyon>or anything really
15:54<andythenorth>or anything
15:54<dreck>elyon..a transfer station would have a pickup waiting :)
15:54<Elyon>maybe you want to amass the limit of cargo
15:54<Elyon>I wouldn't know, I don't play much :D
15:55<Elyon>anyway at some point between gamestart and gameend you're bound to have stations amassing cargo
15:55<dreck>oh and I dunno whats with the complain about isr...I just select one menu..click on station then its size...click it down and thats it
15:55<@planetmaker>dreck, nml needs no compatibility with anything... it simply implements the grf specs...
15:55<dreck>elyon...not me
15:55<Elyon>having a perfectly balanced system from the get-go can be tricky, especially for casual players
15:55<@planetmaker>not sure what compatibility you talk about at all
15:56<@planetmaker>but your choice to waste time on nfo :)
15:56<V453000>dreck: which people? :D
15:56*planetmaker only knows one relevant person who still codes in nfo :P
15:56<dreck>planetmarker then how come I can't even find it ANYWHERE in here? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=53
15:56<dreck>so hence there is indeed a compatibility issue
15:56<Elyon>what can't you find, again?
15:56<dreck>v453000 others working on the grf together with me? :)
15:57<V453000>that is obvious but who :)
15:57<dreck>they're not really on the forum either tho
15:57<andythenorth>eh? quite a few people still code in nfo
15:57<andythenorth>pikka, snail, MB
15:57<andythenorth>at leat
15:57<andythenorth>least *
15:57<@planetmaker>dreck, transport tycoon does not support *any* grf. So what should be about nml in that section?
15:57<V453000>andythenorth: that just represents their sanity XD
15:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, exactly one of those three is relevant ;)
15:58<dreck>oh yeah I almost forgot andy..pikka's wiki finally works again..about due time
15:58<dreck>planetmaker..it does support *nfo* grf
15:58<V453000>as pm said
15:58<andythenorth>I thought he’d delete it
15:58<dreck>but nml isn't anywhere to be found
15:58<@planetmaker>dreck, wrong ;)
15:58<andythenorth>pikka wiki is kind of dead afaik
15:58<@planetmaker>TT(D) does not support any grfs
15:58<dreck>andythenorth...yeah..its nice to be able to check the ukrs2 vehicles without having to run an empty map with cheat on to find out when a loco came out etc
15:58<Rubidium>lies!
15:58<V453000>pikka wiki shall get fixeth once it becomes enough of a priority :D
15:58<Elyon>the patch might be what you're thinking of?
15:58<frosch123>if you mean ttdp, which has a different forum, it only supports grf version 7
15:58<@planetmaker>ok, 5 grfs. But no newgrfs.
15:59<frosch123>so, yes, nml indeed requires ottd 1.2, and does not work with ttdp
15:59<@planetmaker>oh, you spoil it, frosch123 ;)
15:59<andythenorth>if you need to support TTDP, you do need nfo
15:59<Rubidium>though grfcodec can easily make grfs that aren't compatible with ttd/ttdp
15:59<dreck>andy...mind you I don't care if the wiki never gets updated...just as long as at least the ukrs2/etc vehicle list is accessible again
15:59<andythenorth>it was a choice I had to make
16:00<V453000>does anybody even play TTDP still? :0
16:00<dreck>funny enough the separate ukrs1 site is still up (its a different host)
16:00<andythenorth>V453000: yes
16:00<andythenorth>legions of people
16:00<andythenorth>due to superior features
16:00<frosch123>anyway, most modern nfo grfs like pikka's and isr do not work in ttdp either
16:01<dreck>eh? I have isr and it works fine (although its date is a bit old...might be why)
16:01<@planetmaker>isr > 0.9.x is OpenTTD only
16:02<Elyon>wow I really need nickcolors
16:02<dreck>andythenorth..I wouldn't always call it "superior" but yeah there seem to be tons of helpful things that ottd still has not copied like being able to curve tracks right from the bridge instead of after the bridgehead .. or the nice advanced signals .. etc
16:02<andythenorth>superior physics
16:02<dreck>at least I guess ottd does have some other things better tho
16:02<andythenorth>buildable tunnel heads
16:02<andythenorth>stuff
16:02<andythenorth>I dunno, never even see it
16:02<andythenorth>everything I have is hearsay
16:02<dreck>oh I almost forgot...track on top of tunnel portal..yeah I had to do that at times
16:03<frosch123>andythenorth: stop making fun of the physics
16:03<@planetmaker>no, he's right. Physics is superior ;)
16:03*Elyon suddenly recalls someone "translating" openttd en-gb and substituting every instance of "OpenTTD" with "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe"
16:03<@planetmaker>And it's fun
16:04<frosch123>planetmaker: too much involvement with real life, i prefer maths
16:04<@planetmaker>:)
16:04<frosch123>too much realism in physics
16:04<@planetmaker>yeah, it's pesky on that end indeed
16:05<@planetmaker>though if you get to string theory, the 'realism' part can be debated, too ;)
16:05<@planetmaker>But then, that's just math anyway :P
16:05<Rubidium>luckily the vast majority of numbers in maths are not real ;)
16:05<dreck>elyon heh..I've changed a few internal messages myself just out of humor. nothing that I would really want to release to anyone else tho. like how about "Are you trying to drown something else?" instead of the default "Can't raise land here"
16:06-!-tedjam2 [~tedjam@host-92-21-198-97.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
16:08<dreck>oh yeah..when will anyone reprogram the waypoint to work on diagonal tracks or hmm yeah :->
16:08<Elyon>it's /open/ttd
16:08<Elyon>you're free to patch it yourself :3
16:08<Rubidium>when someone figured out how to rotate graphics by 45 degrees without making them look ugly as hell?
16:08<dreck>I'll rather deal with one kind of code.. not two so I'll pass :->
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: even though the real numbers are so abundant, it's actually really hard to find one (that is not also in a much simpler class of numbers)
16:08<dreck>rubidium then why have diagonal trains at all? :)
16:08<Elyon>one kind of code, psh
16:09<Rubidium>dreck: because someone decided, in the 1990s, to draw 8 orientations of (some) vehicles
16:09<Elyon>wouldn't every factor of pi be a real number without being a rational one?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>almost all numbers that humans ever used are algebraic (including some non-real ones)
16:10<dreck>well...signals are diagonal :)
16:10<Rubidium>but that same person decided that stations are only to be drawn in 4 orientations (or for some only 2 or even 1)
16:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, finding non-real numbers is easy...
16:10<dreck>eddi...heh yeah :)
16:10<dreck>typical dices have six sides .. but there are a few other types for specific games/countries too tho
16:11<dreck>the ones with 14+ sides just....seem crazy .. like you have to throw them gentilely to avoid it rolling a long way :)
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: but with these dices you can only ever find natural numbers
16:11<Elyon>14?
16:11<Rubidium>regardless, there not being graphics is a major problem for other orientations...
16:11<Elyon>that seems... an unwieldy number for a die
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: typical dices come in 4,6,8,10,12 and 20
16:12<dreck>elyon one sec..
16:12<Elyon>dices?
16:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you forgot the coin
16:12<Elyon>I can agree to one dice, but not two dices
16:12<Elyon>:p
16:12<@planetmaker>I've recently seen a D3, too
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: true, but that's usually not called a dice :)
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16:13<frosch123>planetmaker: a D6 with same number on opposite sides? or something more fancy?
16:13<Rubidium>frosch123: most coins fall in the 14+ category
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>or die?
16:13<Elyon>the coin has an ill-defined number of discrete sides, as well
16:13<dreck>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Wuerfel5.jpg look at the blue and shiny green one for example
16:13<@planetmaker>frosch123, much more fancy. Like a D4 but with one side rounded
16:13<dreck>although that light blue one with multiply numbers to one face is odd
16:14<frosch123>ah, well, i prefer the 2xD10 with two colours, instead of the pure D100
16:14<frosch123>the D100 is hard to roll, and hard to read
16:14<@planetmaker>yup, my "D100" is also two D10
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: the green in the background is a D12, and the blue and the transparent green one are both D20
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "D100" seems really impractical :p
16:14<@planetmaker>and the left light blue one is a D4
16:15<@planetmaker>the number at the base is what counts
16:15<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, indeed it is. Yet I've once seen one. Very impractical
16:16<frosch123>i assume i already told the story of my colour-blind brother being surprised by my dice with no dots at all...
16:16<Elyon>meh, reserved/keywords :( :(
16:16<Elyon>I want `station.class = station_class`
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't think i heard that
16:16<@planetmaker>he, I don't think either
16:16<frosch123>i have really pretty red dice with black sparkles and green dots
16:16<dreck>about numbers..I think I've seen at least one game that had two "matched" dices .. one had a range of number and other had unique range of its own numbers too (eg 4 would be only on first dice and 9 on only other one)
16:16<dreck>not sure what people really call that sort of weirdo
16:17<frosch123>and my brother asked me, what's the point of dice without any numbers or dots :p
16:17<Elyon>at least they're not invisible, etc.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: you can have all sorts of things on the dice
16:17<dreck>about colored dices...take a old rube cube and bash it apart .. and there you go you got 10+ different color-only dices to play with? :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>games use all sorts of symbols on D6
16:18<dreck>hmm what was the name? I know it was 'r-something cube'
16:18<frosch123>rubicks
16:18<dreck>duh..goes to show how I never ever tried play these things ^
16:18<frosch123>i can solve the 3x3 one
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>i never seriously tried to solve one
16:18<frosch123>the 2x2 is a bitch, the 4x4 and 5x5 ones i did not even try
16:19<frosch123>i think there was even a 12 sided one
16:19<dreck>I do like blokus tho :) any sizes is fine with me
16:19<Elyon>5x5 is supposedly pretty unstable
16:19<dreck>the 3D version someone had (and I've played it with him a few times) is a bit amusing to say the least
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i think the general strategy to solve these things is to pick two fields that you want to flip, while everything else stays the same
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16:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the 3x3 one has 2 and 3-cycles
16:21<frosch123>so, you need to know the 3-cycle moves in both directions, or execute them twice
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>there is a proof that for any constellation of a 3x3 cube, you can solve it in 20 moves
16:22<Elyon>20, now? last I heard was 21
16:22<frosch123>oh, i can create a constellation that is unsolvable :p
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16:22<Elyon>and I believe the 'proof' is just bruteforce exhaustion
16:22<frosch123>like the class 20-19 puzzle, or how was it called?
16:23<frosch123>*classic
16:23<dreck>heh eddi...I can't recall where it came from but I remember someone stated that after a long time using an automated screen app to do it...he tested every single Freecell games in windows...
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: sure, there are "illegal" constellations when you take it apart and put it back together
16:23<dreck>and not surprisingly he came to one that could -not- even be solved at all as the aces were all the way in the back etc
16:23<dreck>I dunno why I remember this now ^
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: sure, it's easy to construct such an unsolvable game.
16:24<frosch123>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Rubik%27s_cube%2C_variations_2%C3%972%C3%972_-_7%C3%977%C3%977.jpg/1024px-Rubik%27s_cube%2C_variations_2%C3%972%C3%972_-_7%C3%977%C3%977.jpg <- oh, there are even 6x6 and 7x7
16:24<frosch123>the 7x7 looks fancy
16:24<__ln___>i'd prefer 1x1 for simplicity
16:26<dreck>oh wikipedia says there appears to be at least eight
16:26<dreck>thats not a surprise tho
16:26<frosch123>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zauberw%C3%BCrfel#Varianten <- that also features the 12 sided ones
16:27<Elyon>is there any downside to having all your sprites in one spriteset?
16:27-!-mgpl_ [~mgpl@176-58-16-246.net.e-cho.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:27<dreck>elyon if your filesize is over 60+ lines long..it could get a bit dense to upload/download basically?
16:27<dreck>thats the only thing I can think of
16:27<Elyon>what?
16:27<Elyon>filesize, lines?
16:28<Elyon>the twine are not related
16:28<dreck>well its only a few sprites per line no?
16:28<Elyon>I'm already doing 3700+ sprites in one set and that seems fine, I'm just wondering if I will have any issues down the line
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16:28<Elyon>and what does upload/download have to do with it?
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>Elyon: the usual problem with binary files is that you cannot have line-based diffs, but have to replace the whole file each time you change a single pixel
16:29<Elyon>hmm, true
16:29<dreck>eddi..ah yes..the update problem too...I almost forgot
16:29<frosch123>Elyon: you can only have 64k sprites in one spriteset :p and you cannot use the little/lots spriteset selection
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>and you're usually changing only a few sprites at a time
16:29<Elyon>but compile-time problems notwithstanding - any performance/similar issues I might run into?
16:30<Elyon>frosch123: little/lots is not precise enough for what I'm doing anyway - and I assume the cap is 65,536?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is what 64k means
16:30<Elyon>hmm ... I don't think we'll be hitting that. should be ~10,000, tops
16:30<dreck>this almost sounds like normal programming suggestions...use several multiply small/medium sized chunks than one big fat chunk .. etca
16:30<Elyon>64Ki would mean that, I think?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>nobody uses that
16:31<Elyon>>:(
16:31<frosch123>Elyon: unless you use register offsets, the limit may even be 8k
16:31<Elyon>I use yottagrammes in my gamedev
16:31<Elyon>frosch123, hmm. That could potentially become an issue
16:31<Elyon>is there any downside to having 10,000 spritesets then? :D
16:31<frosch123>the action0 spritelayout can only take numbers up to 8k i think
16:31<frosch123>after that you need to use registers
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elyon: why would you use an abbreviation and then make it longer for no reason?
16:32<frosch123>Elyon: you cannot choose from 10k spritesets easily
16:32<Elyon>the k abbreviation is usually understood to be kilo, though, right?
16:32<Elyon>km, kg etc.
16:32<frosch123>in this context it is binary kilo, so maybe "ki"?
16:32<Elyon>frosch123: the sprites may possibly all be used in the same layout
16:33<frosch123>one layout can use 4 spritesets at once at max
16:33<Elyon>binary 'kilo' is still pretty vague - hence apple harddrives of 250GB are only 250,000,000,000 bytes
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Elyon: i've never seen a context where it wasn't clear which base of k was meant, except for drive manufacturers which do not stick to the convention for marketing reason
16:33<frosch123>and that actually comes with a performance impact, though not sure whether it is relevant
16:33<frosch123>since the sprites are resolved for 4 differen var10 values
16:33<Elyon>yeah, well ... I'm just being picky. I know you meant 2^10
16:33<Elyon>s/picky/explicit
16:34<Elyon>:D
16:34<Elyon>D:
16:34<frosch123>oh, and you run into the custom foundation conflict
16:34<Elyon>hmm ...
16:34<frosch123>so, 10k per spriteset is better than 10k spritesets in about every case :p
16:35<Elyon>roger!
16:35<andythenorth>meh
16:35*andythenorth waits for a back up to back up
16:36<Eddi|zuHause># back down for what (*crash*)
16:37<andythenorth>:P
16:37<andythenorth>yesterday I saw behaviour that almost is an early smell of corrupt boot volume
16:37<dreck>:)
16:37<andythenorth>today I found that one of my two backups is dead dead dead dead :P
16:38<dreck>if you have a crash with no back to it....you're missing some prior procedures you were supposed to do :)
16:38<andythenorth>so now I have to sit and watch 450GB copy over slow USB 3
16:38<andythenorth>to a slow piece of spinning glass
16:39<frosch123>you can always ask the nsa for the backup
16:39<andythenorth>this is true
16:39<andythenorth>do they have a postal address?
16:39<andythenorth>or can I just tweet?
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16:41<@planetmaker>both works fine
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16:47<frosch123>andythenorth: just leave a post-it on your desk
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16:49<dreck>heh
16:50<andythenorth>I don’t have a desk
16:50<andythenorth>am I exempt?
16:51<Elyon>okay, since I don't know the first thing about the nml lexer/parser, I'm just going to generalise this nfo library to deal with all station properties
16:51<Elyon>that way maybe it'll actually be useful to others until such time as nml <- stations
16:53<@planetmaker>good night
16:53<Elyon>good night :)
16:53<andythenorth>if it handles similar cases to CHIPS, might be interesting
16:53<andythenorth>all my other compiles are python
16:54<Elyon>well ideally it would handle everything considered "not deprecated" or possibly just "not obsolete"
16:55<Elyon>albeit not meant as any sort of replacement for nml stations
16:56<andythenorth>407GB of 450GB done :P
16:56*andythenorth wants to go to bed
16:57<Elyon>\o/
16:57<andythenorth>phew, at least my microsoft IE VMs are backed up :P
16:57<andythenorth>wouldn’t want to lose those and have to freely download them again
16:57<andythenorth>also all my repos, thanks goodness, and my local copy of dropbox
16:57<andythenorth>and my gmail, which I never read
16:58<frosch123>yeah, the nsa should really get more customer oriented
16:58<andythenorth>and my OS, which is only available for free, on the internet
16:58<frosch123>and tell you if there is an important mail
16:58<andythenorth>frosch123: that’s the kind of service government should stay out of
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16:58<andythenorth>impedes private enterprise
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16:59<frosch123>aw, no competition?
16:59<andythenorth>state can cheat
16:59<andythenorth>especially the nsa
16:59<andythenorth>also, I know if there was an important mail, because someone phones me
16:59<frosch123>well, at least they don't walk by :p
17:00<andythenorth>the ones that can walk by don’t bother emailing
17:00<andythenorth>email is dead
17:00<andythenorth>just doesn’t know it yet
17:00<frosch123>you do not have email postmen?
17:01<frosch123>i know many who visit my desk and start with "i just sent you a mail"
17:01<andythenorth>ho, maybe I should make a tedious electronic messaging grf
17:01<frosch123>i believe i have done it myself as well :p
17:01<andythenorth>deliver 10k tweets to frodinghampton
17:01<andythenorth>deliver 1000t of email to gobblebridge
17:02<Elyon>:D
17:02<andythenorth>‘All MSN industries announce imminent closure'
17:02<frosch123>yeah, but the udp vehicles suck
17:02<frosch123>they have not increased capacity for years
17:03<andythenorth>such larks
17:03<andythenorth>ha backup completed
17:03<andythenorth>tfft
17:04<frosch123>would you include an refactoring plant?
17:04<andythenorth>IFTT?
17:04<andythenorth>https://ifttt.com
17:04<frosch123>or is bidirectional code transport between them too boring?
17:05<andythenorth>I think it’s an under-rated game mechanic
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17:20<andythenorth>also bye
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17:41<Elyon>okay hmm, I might just go with injecting raw NFO for varaction2/advanced
17:45<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 06 00:00:14 2015