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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-11

---Logopened Sun Jan 11 00:00:22 2015
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02:49<Elyon>I am nearly at the point I was two days ago regarding nml stations
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02:54<andythenorth>going in circles? o_O
02:55<Elyon>well ...
02:55<Elyon>... kind of?
02:56<Elyon>I started from scratch by restructuring and abstracting the relevant parts of what was already there
02:56<Elyon>which means the process of actually reaching the point I was before is a lot more smooth, more general, and results in more robust code
02:59<Elyon>plus, the restructuring and abstraction was made with the stuff in mind that I /hadn't/ already done, precisely because a restructure was desirable before I did it
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03:12<Elyon>also while the current approach is slightly hack-ish, the previous one was downright dirty
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04:29<andythenorth>release day?
04:29<andythenorth>Alberth: do you want to write a post or should I?
04:30<@Alberth>please go ahead
04:31<andythenorth>will do shortly
04:32<andythenorth>I’ll upload it to bananas on the coop account
04:32<andythenorth>how to bundle it? .tar I assume
04:32<@Alberth>think so
04:33<V453000>t3h GS?
04:33<@Alberth>planetmaker: do you have time to look into bundling/version stuff for busybee?
04:41<@planetmaker>Maybe, what do you need Alberth? Not sure that GS need anything special. Tbh I never did that for a GS myself yet. Doesn't work what frosch uses for his?
04:44<@planetmaker>Usually a GS just needs bundling everything there is in the repo as tar and upload that to bananas (maybe except .devzone folder)
04:44<@Alberth>it seems too complicated, it has a version number derived from the tag as far as I can see, yet there are also version numbers in info,nut, and min-compatible version numbers
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04:45<@Alberth>we had the idea to have 1 number for the 'tag' version and the info.nut version. This implies we need to derive the tag version, and insert it into info.nut
04:45<@Alberth>using version.nut seems quite weird too tbh
04:46<@Alberth>a file with nothing else but a number used in another file
04:46<@planetmaker>version.nut is needed by openttd (or at least something like that)
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04:46<@planetmaker>it's how openttd knows about the GS' version
04:46<@Alberth>would be interesting, as so far, BB has no version.nut
04:46<@Alberth>you're probably confused with info.nut
04:47<@planetmaker> function GetVersion() { return 1; } <-- well, that line :)
04:47<@Alberth>I think version.nut exists because Zuu needed the number at 2 places
04:47<V453000>nutnut :)
04:47<@Alberth>yeah, and that number should be derived from the hg tag
04:48<V453000>it is well known that openttd requires some nut :P
04:49<@Alberth>if we add / update that number manually in the file, and then tag, we'll get tags with wrong numbers
04:50<@Alberth>since /me and andy will type "hg tag 123" rather than checking the number in the info.nut file
04:50<@planetmaker>right. And what version will un-tagged csets have?
04:50<@planetmaker>newgrf approach is to use dayssince2000 as version
04:51<@planetmaker>and tag as displayed version only
04:51<@Alberth>I can live with 0
04:51<@Alberth>@calc 15*365
04:51<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 5475
04:52<@Alberth>hmm, that includes development versions I guess
04:52<@planetmaker>one version per day
04:52<@planetmaker>it uses day of commit
04:53<@Alberth>we'd need to start at say 100,000 for releases or so
04:53<@Alberth>then we'll runinto trouble in 95*15 years :p
04:53<@planetmaker> <-- this is the commit-related data my 'findversion' script can produce currently. Anything useful?
04:53<@planetmaker>and why do you need 100k for releases?
04:54<@Alberth>if you use lower numbers for releases, development versions are by definition compatible, aren't they?
04:55<@Alberth>oh, maybe we need a high mincompatible number instead
04:55<@planetmaker>but you only want *newer* development versions marked as compatible, no?
04:56<@Alberth>you have these language string-name changes that break compatibility
04:56<@Alberth>as well as adding/shuffling/removing strings
04:57<@Alberth>ok, assume we use day-number as dev version
04:57<@Alberth>where do release numbers go then?
04:58<@planetmaker>in GetName
04:58<@Alberth>we keep the same day-numbers for releases? at least for compatibility that would be useful
04:59<@planetmaker>thus versions are monotonically increasing. Tags identify themselves by amending the name
04:59<@Alberth>right, that could work I think
05:01<V453000>hm, wondering what will I do with toyland :> got a couple ideas
05:01<@Alberth>so we derive the day-number and date from the repo, and insert it into info.nut
05:02<@Alberth>(hmm, use daynumber as date? :p )
05:02<@Alberth>then figure out language string compatibility for mincompatible
05:02<@planetmaker>I still suggest to use the ;)
05:03<@Alberth>that basically does "we derive the day-number and date from the repo" ?
05:03<@Alberth>if so, yes of course
05:03<@planetmaker>yes, among others. Up to you which of the 7 info it provides you use
05:04<@planetmaker>it's like openttd's
05:04<@planetmaker>it spams it all, the makefile makes use of the parts where needed
05:04<@Alberth>I'll do some experiments, thanks for playing talking teddybear :)
05:05<@Alberth>I tried to build SV, and it broke on my hg settings
05:05<@Alberth>distributing to all projects makes update quite cumbersome
05:07<@planetmaker>from what I understand now, what I would do: use frosch's implementation and change / amend slightly:
05:09<@Alberth>yep, drop version.nut, derive string file compatibility automagically
05:09<@planetmaker>you want version.nut, too. To hold the dayssince2000
05:09<@Alberth>build has access to the repo?
05:09<@planetmaker>there's no automatic build. And CF cannot push to repo
05:10<@planetmaker>though we can create automatic bundling and publishing to bundles server
05:11<@planetmaker>the only service which pushes to the repo is the translation service
05:11<@Alberth>oh :o
05:11<@Alberth>manual build is fine
05:12<@Alberth>don't expect major work for a long time, tbh
05:12<@planetmaker>well, it's all a matter of telling jenkins to build that project on push
05:12<@planetmaker>but that 'telling jenkins' is a manual step
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05:13<@planetmaker>it's a one-time thing
05:13<@Alberth>don't know what andy has in mind, let's consider that after we can automagically build something :)
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05:15<andythenorth>I have nothing in mind :)
05:15<andythenorth>literally blank :P
05:15<@Alberth>changing a file in the repo is trouble though, although that problem now also exists with version.nut
05:15<@Alberth>so it's nothing new in that respect
05:16<@Alberth>andy, you clearly haven't played enough BB games yet :p
05:19<@planetmaker>let me suggest a diff
05:19<@planetmaker>based on frosch's way
05:19<@planetmaker>but taking into account the tags / current version and see whether you like it
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05:46<@planetmaker>m @ Alberth
05:48<@Alberth>looking useful, thanks
05:49<@Alberth>want to go out for a walk now, will look at it afterwards
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06:25<Wolf01>hi hi
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07:21<Myhorta>is there any page that list all subdomains? I'm pretty sure I stumble on it once but I can't find it anymore.
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07:25<+michi_cc>@topic get 2
07:25<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger)
07:26<+michi_cc>Myhorta: ^
07:26<Rubidium>that's not all subdomains (not that a list of all sub domains is useful, or ever to be released in public)
07:27<Myhorta>:facepalm: thanks michi_cc
07:32<Myhorta>what is the compiler you use for win-64bits binaries?
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07:39<@planetmaker>Myhorta, our CF uses msvc. But you can also use any other, like gcc, or clang
07:39<@planetmaker>or icc or whatever. many compilers can build openttd
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07:47<Myhorta>hmmm ok, thanks. So in order to build in msvc is there any preferable version, or the most recent will do?
07:50<@planetmaker> might help :)
07:53<Myhorta>Thanks. So the most recent version that is supported is 2012.
07:58<@planetmaker>2012 is the most recent version s/o wrote a wiki page about
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08:32<Elyon>hrmeh, station prop 1A fails for 2+ referenced spritelayouts
08:33<Elyon>the first one compiles flawlessly and then it dies on the second
08:38<@planetmaker>thou shall not have other layouts besides me ;)
08:40<Elyon>the ten write_register commands
08:43<Elyon>it's probably (read: definitely) because I haven't yet implemented the registers for prop1A
08:43<Elyon>still, why does the first one not fail? Hmm...
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08:47<Elyon>two identical layouts. The first works, the second doesn't.
08:48<Elyon>for some reason get_register('sprite')[0] is a VarAction2 but its parameter is None
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09:46<frosch123>Alberth: planetmaker: i specifically do not use the result of 'findversion' for info.nut GetVersion
09:46<frosch123>using the repository version for savegame version is wrong
09:46<frosch123>the savegame version is rather the "branch"
09:47<frosch123>openttd also uses findversion to give it a name, but the savegame version in saveload.cpp is set manually, resp. is changed when branching etc
09:47<@Alberth>which "the result" ?
09:47<frosch123>the version number that changes daily
09:48<frosch123>what value does your GetVersion in info.nut return?
09:48<frosch123>when does it change? each commit? each branch?
09:49<@Alberth>that's what I was considering indeed
09:49<@Alberth>each commit would work if you don't do branching I think
09:51<@Alberth>asked differently, how do branch when you only have a single integer number
09:52<frosch123>like ottd, the savegame version stays constant in a branch
09:53<frosch123>anyway, my goal was also to not change version number when only updating translation
09:53<frosch123>i.e. giving the savegame version some meaning
09:53<frosch123>changes to it should be associated to a commit, that changes something incompatibly
09:53<@Alberth>fair enough
09:54<frosch123>if it changes automatically i have no idea how you would use it
09:54<frosch123>you would kind of have to commit the addition, see what version it gets
09:54<frosch123>and then insert the savegame conversion
09:54<frosch123>so, imho "version" and "savegame version" are very different things
09:55<@Alberth>/me adgrees
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09:57<@Alberth>so what you'd basically need is a check that the savegame version is still sane perhaps
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10:22<frosch123>hmm, maybe there is a problem with sv though
10:22<frosch123>i guess if you download multiple versions, ottd cannot tell which is the newest one :p
10:23<frosch123>so, it may need a full blown ottd version like SAVEGAME_VERSION * 100000 + DATE
10:38<@Alberth>don't make a new version without changing the save game version :p
10:38<@Alberth>but indeed, sounds like it
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11:00<__ln___>@seen ludde
11:00<@DorpsGek>__ln___: ludde was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 26 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 57 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <ludde> hej
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12:11<Eddi|zuHause>so, more wind makes it warmer?
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12:18<__ln___>i guess so
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13:46<@Alberth>andythenorth: pushed makefile + scripts for bundle and bananas; not sure it is all ok, probably needs further work (bananas not tested at all)
13:49<@Alberth>please also check the content of the new files, there are some new descriptions etc, made by our planet creator
13:51<frosch123> :o
13:54<@Alberth>furhter enhancements are probably possible, not fully awake any more
13:54<@Alberth>you may also want to update your, for handling the non-standard hg settings
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16:57<Elyon>yes, hmm
16:57<Elyon>I am beginning to dream about sprite registers and ConstantNumerics
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18:35<dreck>hm ok now thats a weird shows me joining twice 0_o
18:38<dreck>that aside, just wondering if its a road-only thing or can livery/cargo refit change a fixed train's length?
18:41<Supercheese>cargo subtype refits can indeed be coded to change vehicle length
18:41<Supercheese>for RV and trains
18:42<dreck>thanks supercheese. so I guess capacity/length can be easily changed without involving some kind of invisible cargo type as is with the nars-specific regear thinge, correct?
18:42<Supercheese>correct, that is no longer required
18:44<dreck>hmm I'll try a dumb test grf and see if it works well in both games. then see from there
18:44<Supercheese>I can point to some examples of cargo subtype being used to change capacity/length/power/etc. if you desire
18:44<Supercheese>in NML, of course
18:44<dreck>thanks anyway....I guess more wiki reading :-s
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18:50<dreck>so whats the big cheese up to now?
18:52<Supercheese>well, I still have to finish the Latin translation of FIRS
18:52<Supercheese>kinda stalled on that for a bit
18:55<dreck>ah :)
18:56<dreck>yeah getting a big grf into so many different languages doesn
18:56<dreck>doesn't seem to sound like a lot of fun*
18:56*dreck whacks the stupid Return key for getting in my way again!
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20:07<Eddi|zuHause>the idea is that everybody takes on a different language
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>not one takes all languages :p
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20:20<dysoco>So any ideas why my Train Depots won't let me create any engines (only wagons)? They were working one hour ago in the same game, is this a bug or did I mess something up?
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20:25<dysoco>hm apparently setting "never expire engines" and running "reset_engines" on the console fixes it.
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20:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, conventional engines run out with the default set. you should switch to maglev
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21:01<twb>I'm looking at giving openttd to prison inmates. They can't have a REPL (console) that can run arbitrary commands. Can openttd's console be used to run arbitrary commands?
21:01<twb>I see it can cd and ls, and I can get it to cd to /bin, but I'm not sure if I can get it to run something like curl
21:17<+glx>you can't run anything from openttd
21:18<twb>OK, thanks
21:18<+glx>cd and ls are just used to navigate and then load savegames
21:18<twb>(I saw exec and script commands and I wasn't sure if I could write an openttd script that then did arbitrary commands.)
21:20<+glx>scripts are just collections of openttd commands
21:20<twb>Okey dokey
21:29<twb>Does openttd make any noises, other than the music?
21:29<twb>(I'm not hearning any, but I'm not sure if that's my fault.)
21:30<twb>ldd says it's linked to libFLAC and libvorbis but I think that's just coming via SDL or so
21:37<Elyon>there is both a soundset and a musicset
21:37<Elyon>the soundset makes quite a lot of noises
21:37<twb>Hm, OK.
21:37<Elyon>I think it's called OpenSFX
21:37<twb>I'm running Debian 7 with openttd 1.2 and I can only see openmsx and opengfx
21:40<twb>Ah they're in the non-free section
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23:16<twb>This is weird. When I run openttd as root, I get both sound effects and music. When I run it as a normal user, only the music is working.
23:16<twb>(My test is to hit new game > generate, then click the fast forward button and listen for choo-choo noises.)
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23:19<Elyon>well, do you have anything generating the noises?
23:19<twb>Dunno. I don't really know how this game works, I was just told to install it
23:20<twb>When I run it as root it even makes noises on the start screen, actually
23:21<twb>lsof says root-owned openttd is using /dev/snd/ (ALSA) interface, which is world-writable...
23:22<twb>No error output when I run it as an inmate
23:24<twb>OK this play sound effects: su - p -s /bin/sh -c 'exec /usr/games/openttd -s sdl -S OpenSFX'
23:24<twb>But without -S OpenSFX it isn't doing so...
23:26<twb>Maybe because I ran it as p once without the sounds, so it has remembered that in his home... ?
23:26<twb>Aha, looks like it
23:26<twb>soundsset = "NoSound"
23:30<twb>works now
23:33<Elyon>ah :p
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23:53<twb>Grr. If I just put the opensfx .zip there, it doesn't see it. Debian's .tar works, but I don't really want to enable non-free just for that one file
---Logclosed Mon Jan 12 00:00:23 2015