| --- | Log | opened Sun Jan 18 00:00:32 2015 |
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| 02:17 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
| 02:18 | <Supercheese> | 29 strings left... |
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| 02:26 | <andythenorth> | k |
| 02:26 | <andythenorth> | I won’t release yet then :) |
| 02:31 | <Supercheese> | Is the Supermarket even used in any economy? |
| 02:31 | <Supercheese> | I cannot recall seeing it |
| 02:31 | <Supercheese> | only Grocery Stores |
| 02:32 | <Supercheese> | seemingly a pointless string, then? |
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| 02:33 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 02:33 | <ST2> | replace cargo names to "Heroin", "Cocain", "Weed", etc |
| 02:33 | <ST2> | and will work better ^^ |
| 02:34 | <ST2> | won't hurt, it's a game anyway :P |
| 02:34 | <andythenorth> | Supercheese: no, not used |
| 02:35 | <@Alberth> | hi andy |
| 02:35 | <Supercheese> | Roger, I won't bother with STR_IND_SUPERMARKET then |
| 02:35 | <andythenorth> | removing that string |
| 02:35 | <andythenorth> | lo Alberth |
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| 03:01 | * | andythenorth cracks knuckles, starts changelog |
| 03:01 | <andythenorth> | does hg view on devzone have dubious handling of branches? |
| 03:02 | <andythenorth> | in bitbucket I can view commits for specific branches |
| 03:02 | <andythenorth> | can’t see how to do that on devzone |
| 03:07 | <@Alberth> | /me uses thg for viewing repository |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | I could get a local client I guess |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | I’ve always resisted getting a GUI client for VCS, I think they hide away too much |
| 03:14 | <andythenorth> | click button, magic happens |
| 03:14 | <@Alberth> | http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GraphlogExtension |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | ah that one :) |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | that works |
| 03:17 | <andythenorth> | I could probably filter on default branch if I bothered to read the manual :D |
| 03:18 | <@Alberth> | you could :) |
| 03:19 | <@Alberth> | I use thg only for browsing and annotations, I tried a few other things, but the cmd line was just as simple |
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| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | Supercheese: how’s the translation going? o_O |
| 03:50 | <Supercheese> | 18 strings remain |
| 03:50 | * | andythenorth has done changelog etc |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | ping me when you’re done |
| 03:51 | <Supercheese> | 17, roger |
| 03:51 | * | andythenorth wonders what the players will think of this release |
| 03:52 | <andythenorth> | changes Full FIRS a bit |
| 03:53 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 03:53 | <andythenorth> | repeatable asserts on the industry chain view |
| 03:54 | <andythenorth> | just not sure how I’m repeating them |
| 03:54 | <andythenorth> | also changed newgrfs in the savegame, so might be spurious |
| 03:55 | <andythenorth> | seems to be if I use the cargo drop-down, then use the industry drop-down |
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| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | hrm |
| 04:14 | * | andythenorth ponders |
| 04:35 | <Supercheese> | just 5 more now |
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| 04:43 | <andythenorth> | Tropic Basic economy is probably wrong |
| 04:43 | <andythenorth> | but not convinced yet |
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| 04:57 | <andythenorth> | hrm, should just rework it |
| 04:58 | <Supercheese> | and the last one, "bulk terminal" hmmm |
| 04:58 | <andythenorth> | yeah tricky one that |
| 04:58 | <Supercheese> | remove it then I won't have to translate it :P |
| 04:59 | <andythenorth> | you can use variants on harbour |
| 04:59 | <andythenorth> | or whatever |
| 04:59 | <andythenorth> | I gave it a clunky name to distinguish it clearly from the more generic Port |
| 05:01 | <andythenorth> | Supercheese: you could interpret: Big Ships Harbour or something |
| 05:01 | <Supercheese> | indeed |
| 05:01 | <andythenorth> | or just Big Harbour |
| 05:01 | <andythenorth> | these industries change cargos in every economy |
| 05:01 | <andythenorth> | all that matters is that player can tell them apart |
| 05:01 | <andythenorth> | meaning in every case is ‘some kind of harbour’ |
| 05:11 | <Supercheese> | Ok, all are now translated |
| 05:13 | <Supercheese> | and I can't see any obvious errors - though chances are I'll discover some silly mistakes I made later :P |
| 05:14 | <Supercheese> | oh guess I should ping like you said andythenorth |
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| 05:17 | <andythenorth> | k ta |
| 05:17 | * | andythenorth not in the mood to rework a whole economy |
| 05:17 | <andythenorth> | so going to release |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: do you know a way to force eints to commit changes to a project repo? |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | otherwise tag will be missing today’s updates |
| 05:18 | <@Alberth> | nope |
| 05:19 | <@Alberth> | could download the languages manually |
| 05:19 | <andythenorth> | or tag tonight |
| 05:19 | <andythenorth> | it’s not that pressing, it’s > 12 months since last tag |
| 05:19 | <@Alberth> | or ask nicely to an admin :) |
| 05:20 | <@Alberth> | but haven't seen those yet :) |
| 05:25 | <Supercheese> | I think Attenborough once did a special on the rare species of S. admin ;) |
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| 05:26 | <Wolf01> | moin |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | meh, FIRS Tropic Basic should be called “Tropic boring economy where you connect all the farms up to FMSP” |
| 05:37 | <NGC3982> | FMSP? |
| 05:37 | <andythenorth> | farm supplies |
| 05:37 | <NGC3982> | Ah |
| 06:02 | <@Alberth> | moin |
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| 06:19 | <supermop> | yo |
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| 06:43 | <supermop> | rode a track bike for 40km on a gravel trail because i am an idiot today |
| 06:47 | <NGC3982> | :D |
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| 07:06 | <supermop> | ok im beat, good night |
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| 07:58 | <andythenorth> | quak |
| 07:58 | <frosch123> | moin |
| 07:58 | <V453000> | hy |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | lo V453000 also |
| 07:59 | <V453000> | hihi :)ú |
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| 08:01 | <V453000> | roads/tracks time :) |
| 08:17 | * | andythenorth remaking Tropic economy time |
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| 08:24 | <V453000> | :D |
| 08:24 | <V453000> | werent you remaking something else just a while back? |
| 08:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so, you're just now realizing that andy has one of the most unstable minds on this planet? :p |
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| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
| 08:33 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: got the link to the credits script or me again? |
| 08:33 | <NGC3982> | Three marks for muster mark. |
| 08:33 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: i am just improving it :) |
| 08:33 | <@planetmaker> | ah... nvm. my memory worked |
| 08:35 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: you can commit that to http://hg.openttdcoop.org/misc in the 'compiler' folder? |
| 08:36 | <V453000> | Eddi|zuHause: no but I didnt want to be cruel and pretend otherwise :P |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | in principle you can then also modify jenkins_build.sh, call that script in the appropriate place and modify jenkins_postbuild.sh to copy the credits.txt and you're done adding it to all newgrf projects |
| 08:37 | <@planetmaker> | if you don't I shall have a look either late today or tomorrow; I'm not home right now and I'm expected for tea and dinner soon |
| 08:38 | <andythenorth> | V453000: what did I remake? I don’t remember remaking anything ever |
| 08:38 | <V453000> | XD |
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| 08:43 | <Flygon> | How long does a coal mine typically last if it doesn't supply anything? |
| 08:45 | <andythenorth> | there is no typically |
| 08:45 | <andythenorth> | it’s probabilistic, depends also on number on map, economy settings etc |
| 08:46 | <andythenorth> | it might have a statistical pattern if someone ran enough games and logged closures |
| 08:46 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 08:47 | <Flygon> | Oh |
| 08:47 | <Flygon> | Damn. |
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| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | I’ve tried two configurations of port industries in Full FIRS economy |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | one is illogical but fun to play |
| 08:57 | <andythenorth> | the other is highly logical, but tedious |
| 09:00 | * | andythenorth puzzled |
| 09:01 | <@Alberth> | 2 full economies? |
| 09:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: there's a grace period of about 5 years, then it could close any month |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: nah :) |
| 09:02 | * | Flygon nod |
| 09:02 | <Flygon> | Thanks, man |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | the only reason I’m doing this is because Full FIRS is the result of one rational decision after another |
| 09:03 | <andythenorth> | and it’s boring |
| 09:03 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 09:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: split it into "Fun FIRS" and "Logical FIRS" economies |
| 09:03 | <andythenorth> | it needs some kind of shortcuts |
| 09:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the name "full" is problematic anyway, get rid of it sooner rather than later |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | good point |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | now would be a good time |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | call it what? |
| 09:06 | <andythenorth> | complex? intense? |
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| 09:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "complex" seems fine, and in line with "basic" |
| 09:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | make "basic (climate dependent)" the default, then allow "basic (specific climate)" and the other economies as parameter options |
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| 09:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you could also have "complex (specific climate)" later... |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
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| 09:22 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/credits.txt :) |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | hurrah |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | I went through the translations in changelog this morning, some contributors are missing, but probably pre-dating eints, so probably not in the commit messages |
| 09:24 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: that file is 100% auto-generated? |
| 09:25 | * | andythenorth ponders processing it with FIRS compiler to add the known-missing contributors |
| 09:26 | <frosch123> | yes, it's now generated for almost all projects on devzone |
| 09:26 | <andythenorth> | is the output destination adjustable? |
| 09:27 | <frosch123> | no, not exactly |
| 09:27 | <andythenorth> | nvm |
| 09:27 | <frosch123> | if you want to use it yourself, rather add a copy to firs, and call it there |
| 09:28 | <andythenorth> | ok ta |
| 09:32 | <frosch123> | hmm, oh, right.. there are no jenkins build for gamescripts... so, also no automatic credit files for them |
| 09:33 | <andythenorth> | a project? o_O |
| 09:33 | <andythenorth> | we are having more gamescripts now |
| 09:33 | <andythenorth> | I have at least two ideas beyond Busy Bee, one probably sucks but eh |
| 09:33 | <frosch123> | it also fails for projects using subrepositories, like opengfx-mars; but i guess i don't care about them |
| 09:34 | <andythenorth> | edge cases |
| 09:34 | <andythenorth> | subrepos are always odd |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | eh controversial idea |
| 09:50 | <andythenorth> | a FIRS economy without fishing |
| 09:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why is that controversial? |
| 09:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "landlocked FIRS" |
| 09:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no oil rigs, no fishing stuff |
| 09:59 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: andy is an english man, no water is unrealistic for him |
| 09:59 | <andythenorth> | this is a very good point |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | can’t imagine being stuck in a continent |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | being in the middle of Canada for three months freaked me out |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | don’t like boats much mind |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | also |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | I am revamping FIRS Tropic Basic |
| 10:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | never played that |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | in Brazil & Argentina, the sugar refineries produce ethanol |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | which is handy because there’s one in the game, and I’m consolidating some things |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | but is ethanol Chemicals or Petrol, for gameplay purposes? |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | probably petrol |
| 10:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | fuel |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | yeah, petrol is a coverall term for fuel |
| 10:02 | <andythenorth> | I originally had fuel oil, but people found it weird |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't know the nuances of these terms |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | don’t think it matters much |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | just using irc to think out loud |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | there is a small child here pushing around a box on wheels |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | he is not much use at game design |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | actually, that’s untrue, he’s inventing his own game as I watch |
| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | but it’s not good |
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| 10:17 | <andythenorth> | hrm, loads of possibilities for this economy |
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| 11:11 | <andythenorth> | hmm can’t log in to newgrf wiki |
| 11:11 | <andythenorth> | says I need a TTD account |
| 11:11 | <andythenorth> | but I’m using my TTD auth creds |
| 11:12 | <andythenorth> | TTF / TTD /S |
| 11:13 | <frosch123> | works for me |
| 11:16 | <V453000> | BANNED |
| 11:18 | <andythenorth> | I reset my forums password last year |
| 11:19 | <andythenorth> | dunno if I’ve logged into the wiki since then |
| 11:19 | <andythenorth> | was going to add BEAN to the cargo labels |
| 11:20 | <andythenorth> | or BNZZ |
| 11:28 | <andythenorth> | Supercheese: sorry, making more translations :D |
| 11:28 | <andythenorth> | going to delay a FIRS release |
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| 12:33 | <FUZxxl_> | Hello! |
| 12:33 | <FUZxxl_> | How many rating points do I need to demolish a church? |
| 12:38 | <andythenorth> | ha ha the FIRS compile is such a lot of gaffer tape and string |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by translators :: r27121 /trunk/src/lang (irish.txt latin.txt) (2015-01-18 17:45:32 UTC) |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | irish - 2 changes by tem |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | latin - 1 changes by Supercheese |
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| 12:56 | <FUZxxl_> | :-( |
| 12:56 | <FUZxxl_> | So I will suffer |
| 12:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | church needs very high rating. |
| 12:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but there's a wiki page for that. |
| 13:02 | <FUZxxl_> | which? |
| 13:02 | <FUZxxl_> | I haven't found one. |
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| 13:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | probably the game mechanics one |
| 13:20 | <FUZxxl> | well, that page does not list the minimal rating for each building. It just says “Destroy a building / Rating Required: 40 to 300” |
| 13:20 | <FUZxxl> | It doesn't say what buildings require what rating. |
| 13:26 | <frosch123> | https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/DefaultHouseProps <- FUZxxl: second to last column |
| 13:28 | <frosch123> | the positive score is devided in steps of 200 from 0 to 1000 with mediocre (0-200), good, very good, execellent, outstanding (800-1000) |
| 13:28 | <frosch123> | so, for most houses you need mediocre, for some you need good |
| 13:29 | <frosch123> | though you need to be upper-mediocre, or upper-good :p |
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| 13:36 | <FUZxxl> | thank you |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | hrm |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | these farm clusters just ain’t fun |
| 13:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "horrible ressource management"? |
| 13:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, they are |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | deliving tedious supplies? |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | delivering * |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | also the initial production is sized for trucks, but with supplies it’s big enough for a train |
| 13:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so? |
| 13:48 | <andythenorth> | boring to rebuild |
| 13:48 | <andythenorth> | and supplies are very fragile, so easy to have a lot of stuck trains |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | how to make supplies less fragile? o_O |
| 13:49 | * | NGC3982 buys his first game in ten years. |
| 13:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | stockpiling for supplies |
| 13:50 | <andythenorth> | looking increasingly plausible |
| 13:50 | <andythenorth> | with acceptance refusal? |
| 13:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | supplies are consumed every month, but you can deliver every three months |
| 13:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | stockpiles above three months are discarded unused (but still paid for) |
| 13:51 | <andythenorth> | this looks really tedious to play http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7023/farm_cluster.png |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | have to provide delivery at every station, observing industry north tile rules where overlap can’t be avoided |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | also two kinds of pickup |
| 13:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | looks fine to me |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | and it’s on slopes, so routing is harder |
| 13:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe increase the minimum distance between farms |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | well |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | then I can’t station walk :P |
| 13:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the slopiness you cannot change from the newgrf |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | ah I see a problem |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | I want all the cluster within station walking distance for pickup |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | but far enough apart for delivering supplies to each |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | this is a bad design goal |
| 13:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds silly |
| 13:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | use a feeder system, not station walking |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | flawed |
| 13:53 | <andythenorth> | feeders are not very fun |
| 13:54 | <@Alberth> | not in 1883, where trains can't climb a 1 tile hill :p |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | lots of clicking |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | yak-shaving |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | how about |
| 13:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i love feeders |
| 13:54 | <@Alberth> | why do you have clusters then? |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | fewer farms per cluster, higher production, slightly more spaced out? |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: because often I am wrong |
| 13:54 | <@Alberth> | (I do like clusters though) |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | I have ideas |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | then we find why they’re flawed |
| 13:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: make it a setting? |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: maybe |
| 13:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the whole point of clusters was feeder systems... |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | yes, but I’ve neglected scaling them properly |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | in Full FIRS (complex, whatever we call it), there are many more industries |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | so each cluster is much smaller |
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| 13:56 | <@Alberth> | oh, you're using the original baseset of course, the screen shot looked different :) |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | there’s another option? :P |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | in the basic economies, many fewer industries (~18 vs 51) |
| 13:57 | <@Alberth> | /me ponders answering zBase |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | I should handle the scaling |
| 13:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | scaling by map size, number of industry types, etc. |
| 13:58 | <@Alberth> | sounds nice to scale |
| 13:58 | <@Alberth> | makes the basic economies also more different to play |
| 13:59 | <andythenorth> | scales by map size, but not num industry types |
| 14:00 | <V453000> | zbase ._. |
| 14:01 | <V453000> | actually I will start using zbase soon :D |
| 14:01 | <V453000> | once I finish RAWR :) |
| 14:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: num types that take part in the cluster |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: so for farm cluster, count all farm types |
| 14:02 | * | andythenorth is looking for the map size scaling code |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | this is a bit of FIRS I didn’t write |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | it’s all CPP |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | it doesn’t have any concept of economies and such |
| 14:02 | <@Alberth> | V: No need to make a new baseset before you're allowed to use a different one :) |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | it looks worth coming back to this in future though |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: if I convert the cluster code generation to python in future…I am wondering if an algorithm can be devised to reliably cluster for any industry type in any economy for any map size.... |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | seems like it should be possible |
| 14:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | needs more specification of what goes in and what comes out |
| 14:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | out: number of clusters, average cluster size |
| 14:05 | <andythenorth> | I’d need to understand current code first :) |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | I think you wrote the original spec |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in: number of industries, size of industry, map size, ... |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | number of clusters is a define somewhere, scaled by map size, I think |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i might have made some suggestions, but i certainly didn't write anything... |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | someone wrote a map scaling routing, not me :) |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | what’s the optimum number of industries in a cluster? About 5? |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are afair two kinds of clusters. mine clusters and agriculture clusters |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | mine clusters have fewer but larger industries |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | where agriculture clusters have more smaller industries |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | yes, that’s handled somewhere |
| 14:08 | <V453000> | Alberth: no but it is just utter shit, my eyes are dying when looking at the emptiness of zbase |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you want to make cluster generation more flexible, you should unify those |
| 14:09 | <@Alberth> | V453000: yep, I fully agree :) |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so this algorithm can output numbers for any kind of cluster |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69 |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | dunno what that’s doing |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | mindistance and maxdistance are obvious |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | tweaking those gives better results, at least for the map size I just tested, in multiple economies |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | V453000: do you know about static newgrf? |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | where is industry_clusters coming from, /me wonders |
| 14:10 | <V453000> | frosch123: which newgrf to use? :P |
| 14:10 | <andythenorth> | ah industry_clusters = (relative_map_size / 2) + 1; |
| 14:11 | <V453000> | yes I know about it ... never used it though |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | dunno what mult and div do |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | V453000: well, it's the thing you should do as long as rawr is no complete baseset |
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| 14:11 | <V453000> | yeah I will :) |
| 14:13 | <V453000> | most of the time I will just add RAWR to the game though :P |
| 14:13 | <V453000> | simple nuff |
| 14:13 | <andythenorth> | hrm |
| 14:13 | <andythenorth> | mult and div are set higher for mines |
| 14:14 | <andythenorth> | and some farms |
| 14:14 | <andythenorth> | dunno what that means |
| 14:14 | <andythenorth> | hmm some secondaries use CHECK_NEARBY_CLUSTER |
| 14:15 | <andythenorth> | it’s fun having a codebase where I don’t understand 30% of it |
| 14:15 | <@Alberth> | multi and div is just a factor ( x * mult / div ) |
| 14:16 | <@Alberth> | but split into 2 numbers for more precision |
| 14:17 | <andythenorth> | so somehow that code is controlling the number of clusters to build? |
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| 14:21 | <V453000> | hm do diagonal tracks need to be wider than normal full-tile tracks? :d |
| 14:22 | <V453000> | I guess they do, same reason as with trains being 141% longer |
| 14:22 | <NGC3982> | I just realized what alt+Enter did to OpenTTD. |
| 14:23 | <frosch123> | it's a standard hotkey, though recently it is getting replaced by F11 i think |
| 14:31 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: sound like a reasonable solution to this repeatedly-complained-about problem? :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7410 |
| 14:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: you can fuzz it a tiny bit, but if you make the scaling too exact, the changes between diagonal and straight will be off... |
| 14:33 | <V453000> | yeah that is what I figure |
| 14:34 | <V453000> | I will try the precise thing for now |
| 14:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alt+Enter was already a standard hotkey in Win 3.1 |
| 14:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i guess it grew out of fashion with the reduction of DOS applications |
| 14:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the F11 thing seems to come from browsers |
| 14:38 | <frosch123> | hotkeys change over time, the worst example that comes to mind is the acrobat reader |
| 14:38 | <frosch123> | "goto page" has always been ctrl+g or ctrl+l, in acrobat it was changed to ctrl+shift+n or something silly |
| 14:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the DOS version of WordPerfect, "help" was F3. |
| 14:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | WordPerfect was fun, it came with a bar that you could place above F1..F12 keys that showed the functions they would do, with Alt,Shift and Ctrl modifiers. so 4 functions per key |
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| 14:48 | <Wolf01> | heh, do you remember the hotkeys for saving in notepad, wordpad and office (word, excel..)? |
| 14:50 | <frosch123> | it's F2 in turbo pascal |
| 14:51 | <frosch123> | help - save - open - step until line - maximize - switch window - step - next - run - menu |
| 14:51 | <frosch123> | all correct? |
| 14:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i vaguely remember using ctrl+F9 regularly |
| 14:51 | <frosch123> | not sure about maximize/switch window, maybe they were the other way around :p |
| 14:52 | <frosch123> | i belive F9 is comile, ctrl+f9 is compile and run or so |
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| 14:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | F5 for maximize sounds right |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/user/userse32.html <- yup, all correct |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | can't remember using F11 or F12 |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | also i would have difficulties with the ctrl+Fx ones |
| 14:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, i know some of the starwriter commands (Ctrl+K,<whatever>) |
| 14:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't remember the Ctrl+Q ones |
| 14:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, i never used freepascal. i had borland pascal 7 (dos&windows), delphi 2 and later delphi 6 |
| 14:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it's at least 10 years ago since i used that |
| 14:59 | <frosch123> | the freepascal hotkeys are identical to turbo pascal |
| 15:00 | <frosch123> | i also never used the freepascal ide |
| 15:01 | <shempi> | hmm, is there a way to have vehicles automatically replaced when they get old? |
| 15:01 | <shempi> | particularly buses |
| 15:01 | <frosch123> | yes, look on the wiki for "autorenew" |
| 15:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are two methods to replace vehicles. a) when they are old, they get replaced with the same type, or b) any time they go to the depot they will be replaced by another type |
| 15:05 | <Wolf01> | "Windows +CTRL+SHIFT+[number]: run as administrator the [number] app on the app bar" nice one, I missed that |
| 15:07 | <shempi> | frosch123: Eddi|zuHause: cool, thanks |
| 15:07 | <Wolf01> | and now I need a shortcut to resize a window to a quadrant, instead of half screen, on ubuntu 9 (last time I used it, lol) I had that one |
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| 15:15 | <V453000> | hm tunnels look awful low :D |
| 15:15 | <V453000> | hax |
| 15:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | tunnel portals are already visually enlarged |
| 15:19 | <V453000> | yeah I just noticed :D |
| 15:20 | <V453000> | looking at the sloped tile shows that quite well :D |
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| 15:55 | <@planetmaker> | g'evening |
| 15:56 | <V453000> | hi :) |
| 15:56 | <Taede> | ello |
| 16:01 | <XeryusTC> | yo |
| 16:03 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: to summarize, gen_credits works for most newgrf :) it fails for obvious reasons with projects using subrepos, and for game scripts since none of them are build on jenkins |
| 16:03 | <andythenorth> | ugh, /me made an outsized diff |
| 16:04 | <andythenorth> | had to fix bugs mid-way through revising an economy :( |
| 16:04 | <@planetmaker> | Well, that's expected for sub-repos. Could be checked for by checking the project type in .devzone/build/type. But... meh :) |
| 16:04 | <frosch123> | well, it's no error |
| 16:04 | <@planetmaker> | and for GS: they can easily be added to Jenkins. Just no-one requested that yet. I'm not against that, not at all. Actually I like that :) |
| 16:05 | <frosch123> | well, gs are all different :p |
| 16:05 | <@planetmaker> | they are :) |
| 16:05 | <frosch123> | busy-bee requires to run make bundle, while most others just need a source bundle |
| 16:05 | <@planetmaker> | yep. But easy to add busy-bee |
| 16:05 | <@planetmaker> | It's not like GS need much... |
| 16:05 | <frosch123> | well, problem is the version number |
| 16:06 | <@Alberth> | /me ponders adding some graphics |
| 16:06 | <frosch123> | if ottd shall display them reliably it needs an increasing version number |
| 16:06 | <frosch123> | so, actually busy-bee is the only one working :p |
| 16:06 | <@Alberth> | \o/ :D |
| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | running make on bundles is a nice basic regression test |
| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | for common case of, e.g. “I forgot to add file” |
| 16:07 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: doesn't work for gs |
| 16:07 | <andythenorth> | currently, or ever? |
| 16:07 | <V453000> | hm, putting everything in one file is not the most fortunate for compiling either :) |
| 16:07 | <V453000> | one change = no cache :D |
| 16:07 | <V453000> | buuuut meh :) |
| 16:08 | <frosch123> | well, we have no squirrel compiler that checks whether all files dynamically imported files are present |
| 16:08 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, for graphics, for sure. No good idea. Some intermediate approach is usually fine. Like one tileset for landscape per file. If you change one, you change the others likely, too, anyway |
| 16:08 | <@planetmaker> | could be added, such compiler, though |
| 16:08 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: planetmaker: I have no objections if you want to experiment with busy bee building |
| 16:09 | <V453000> | idk how to mass-convert 32bpp files to 8bpp though |
| 16:09 | <@planetmaker> | aye :) |
| 16:09 | <V453000> | so since I do it manually, less files == more convenient |
| 16:09 | <andythenorth> | after un-breaking FIRS, I might have a look at Busy Bee |
| 16:09 | <@planetmaker> | you're not using a script? |
| 16:09 | <V453000> | not going to remake stuff :) |
| 16:09 | <V453000> | no? :) |
| 16:09 | <andythenorth> | part of me wants to finish converting FIRS to python |
| 16:09 | <V453000> | everything I do is manual |
| 16:09 | <andythenorth> | but probably TMWFTLB, and will add bugs :P |
| 16:10 | <V453000> | well, except the automated stuff through graphics programs |
| 16:10 | <@planetmaker> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1140964#p1140964 <-- frosch123 do you have a nice reply there? And to discourage use of GEAR cargo? |
| 16:10 | <@Alberth> | there goes you banner "all pixels are hand made" V :) |
| 16:10 | <V453000> | XD |
| 16:11 | <@Alberth> | make an industry set for it, with real cargo :p |
| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | I replied |
| 16:12 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: there is no way to check for free cargo id slots. i am not aware of anyone ever using grm for cargos, since it was weirdly incomplete or so. if he wants to use gear, the obvious approach is to use the same cargo id as other sets using gear, since it is most likely that that id is free then. other than that, i do not care, there is no good reply for subtype related stuff :) |
| 16:13 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 16:13 | <@planetmaker> | Just write that :P |
| 16:14 | * | andythenorth unbreaks FIRS :| |
| 16:14 | <andythenorth> | frigging slow compile to test the unbreaking |
| 16:14 | <andythenorth> | my computer has compiled FIRS for about 2 hours today |
| 16:15 | <andythenorth> | I have found a lot of things to do meanwhile :P |
| 16:16 | <@Alberth> | multitasking bees |
| 16:17 | * | andythenorth wonders if building one FIRS grf per economy would be faster on average |
| 16:17 | <andythenorth> | more grfs in the wild though |
| 16:17 | <andythenorth> | just realised I have only one industry slot left |
| 16:17 | <andythenorth> | that game-overs some of the planned economies |
| 16:18 | <andythenorth> | can’t overlap industry IDs even in different economies, because one nml compile |
| 16:18 | <frosch123> | untrue |
| 16:18 | <andythenorth> | will lead to spurious results on location checks (which use IDs) |
| 16:19 | <frosch123> | you just need some "if" |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | I have a lot of ‘if’ already |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | getting a bit scared of the if :( |
| 16:20 | * | andythenorth wonders what the cost is of declaring industry properties multiple times for same industry |
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| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | if I convert the CPP location checks to python, I can put the ‘if’ in |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | AND I can support compiling a subset of the industries |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | which is much faster for testing when developing |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | currently I can compile a single industry, but I have to comment out location check code in actual src |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | which is easily forgotten :P |
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| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | a single industry compile is ~20s, versus > 3 mins for full grf |
| 16:25 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, but you really don't make use of the graphics cache? Or is that being usedß |
| 16:25 | <@planetmaker> | s/ß/?/g |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | good q |
| 16:26 | <frosch123> | encoding time is irrelevant for 8bpp 1x grfs :) |
| 16:26 | <andythenorth> | I can’t see nml cache file though for FIRS |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | other grfs have it |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | hmm, I just ran clean though, and I’m waiting for compile |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | just add 32bpp 4x sprites to firs, then you won't complain about 3 minutes anymore :p |
| 16:27 | <andythenorth> | ho, I have to run make clean every time |
| 16:28 | <andythenorth> | because I made the makefile ‘properly’ |
| 16:28 | <andythenorth> | that can’t be good |
| 16:28 | <andythenorth> | I should revert that commit |
| 16:30 | <andythenorth> | I think it was this one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/105e49f096e8/diff/ |
| 16:31 | <andythenorth> | unless I run clean, make won’t build any changes after an initial build |
| 16:31 | <andythenorth> | it ‘builds’, but doesn’t call the python compile |
| 16:32 | <+glx> | then you cleaned the dependancies |
| 16:34 | <andythenorth> | I don’t really understand what the dependencies are :) |
| 16:34 | <andythenorth> | I have tried to understand make before, but it’s just magic |
| 16:34 | <+glx> | $(_V) mv generated/pnml/firs.pnml firs.pnml |
| 16:34 | <+glx> | this line is needed |
| 16:35 | <andythenorth> | that just moves a file somewhere it shouldn’t be? |
| 16:37 | <+glx> | but no lines in this section seems to create the file except mv |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | file isn’t needed |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | firs.pnml is dead |
| 16:39 | <+glx> | but generated/pnml/firs.pnml is used by the rule |
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| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | yes :) |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | that is created by preprocess.py |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | but make doesn’t seem to understand that, for the way I this configured |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | so it doesn’t call preprocess.py |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | * have |
| 16:42 | <+glx> | it runs it if preprocess.py has been modified |
| 16:42 | <+glx> | that's what the rule says |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | ah |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | so if I edit my compiler, it will be run by make |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | but I don’t usually edit my compiler :) |
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| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | this was done previously with a PHONY target |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | which worked fine |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | but then I learnt that PHONY targets shouldn’t be used |
| 16:46 | <andythenorth> | so I did it ‘properly’ |
| 16:46 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 16:46 | <+glx> | well you need add the "sources" in dependancies |
| 16:46 | <andythenorth> | maybe I don’t have to run ‘make clean’, maybe I can just manually remove the generated folder every time I want to compile |
| 16:46 | <+glx> | else it won't detect it needs to rebuild |
| 16:47 | <__ln___> | *dependencies |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | yeah, I recall being told I needed to list deps before |
| 16:47 | <+glx> | __ln___: I'm french, it's a "a" here ;) |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | but manually maintaining deps, I dunno |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | writing out a long list of files? |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | sounds really dull |
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| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | maybe I can patch my makefile to remove the generated stuff every time |
| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | clean removes the cache files too, which is sad |
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| 16:49 | <+glx> | that's why many projects (including openttd) use tools to generate deps ;) |
| 16:49 | <andythenorth> | I dunno how to do that :) |
| 16:49 | <+glx> | but IIRC you can just add *.ext as dep |
| 16:49 | <andythenorth> | I was already told not to write my own dep checks in python, because it will likely be wrong |
| 16:50 | <andythenorth> | I could just do *.* I guess |
| 16:50 | <andythenorth> | or just * |
| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | ho ho, ‘beans’, the tropic cargo everyone was waiting for |
| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | not |
| 16:56 | * | andythenorth adds it anyway |
| 16:56 | <frosch123> | i like beans |
| 16:58 | <andythenorth> | do you like putting them in trains? o_O |
| 16:59 | * | andythenorth has been making work for FIRS translators |
| 16:59 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 16:59 | <frosch123> | well, there are multiple colours for beans |
| 16:59 | <frosch123> | so, make a complete bean economy |
| 17:00 | <frosch123> | call it bohnanza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohnanza |
| 17:00 | <andythenorth> | ha |
| 17:03 | <Supercheese> | surprised they didn't change it to Beananza for English |
| 17:03 | <Supercheese> | maybe was a copyright conflict |
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| 17:12 | <andythenorth> | do the cargo IDs (slot numbers) have any significance at all? |
| 17:13 | <frosch123> | only for industry sets |
| 17:13 | <andythenorth> | or rather, can I set them to arbitrary (but stable) values per economy? |
| 17:13 | <andythenorth> | does it matter if COAL is 8 in one economy and 32 in another? |
| 17:13 | <frosch123> | pax/mail are fixed, the rest does not matter |
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| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | worth knowing thanks :) |
| 17:14 | <frosch123> | need to be constant for savegame reasons ofc |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | I’m breaking savegames this release, so might be a nice time to clean them up |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | already they overlap, now I’m chasing my tale designing economies because of conflicts |
| 17:15 | <andythenorth> | “no you can’t have coffee, same ID as wool” :P |
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| 17:16 | <andythenorth> | shame I can’t do it based on position in a python list :P |
| 17:16 | <andythenorth> | but not stable |
| 17:16 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 17:16 | <andythenorth> | also |
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| 18:15 | <Wolf01> | 'night all |
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| 18:22 | <Samu> | hi, i found a bug, and I think I know how to do it |
| 18:22 | <Samu> | it requires 2 players on the same company but with different company settings |
| 18:23 | <@planetmaker> | Samu, then please create an issue in our bug tracker and describe the procedure how to encounter / reproduce |
| 18:23 | <Samu> | ok, it's about autoreplace |
| 18:23 | <Samu> | will do |
| 18:27 | <Samu> | now that I think about it, maybe it's not a bug |
| 18:28 | <+glx> | lol an autoreplace bug, how surprising ;) |
| 18:28 | <Samu> | he had his own autorenew as off |
| 18:30 | <@planetmaker> | autorenew != autoreplace |
| 18:30 | <Samu> | it was about the money limit |
| 18:31 | <Samu> | I had the game to replace a train engine with a newer one that came available |
| 18:31 | <Samu> | the train "I" created, was replaced immediately at £0 which is what I have for me |
| 18:31 | <Samu> | but the train already in the company when I joined it, created by the other player, was only replaced at £100,000 |
| 18:32 | <Samu> | intended or bug? |
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| 18:41 | <@planetmaker> | dunno really |
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| 19:10 | <Samu> | here it is: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6215 |
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| 23:14 | <supermop> | yo |
| --- | Log | closed Mon Jan 19 00:00:34 2015 |
