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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-18

---Logopened Sun Jan 18 00:00:32 2015
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02:17<andythenorth>o/
02:18<Supercheese>29 strings left...
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02:26<andythenorth>k
02:26<andythenorth>I won’t release yet then :)
02:31<Supercheese>Is the Supermarket even used in any economy?
02:31<Supercheese>I cannot recall seeing it
02:31<Supercheese>only Grocery Stores
02:32<Supercheese>seemingly a pointless string, then?
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02:33<ST2>replace cargo names to "Heroin", "Cocain", "Weed", etc
02:33<ST2>and will work better ^^
02:34<ST2>won't hurt, it's a game anyway :P
02:34<andythenorth>Supercheese: no, not used
02:35<@Alberth>hi andy
02:35<Supercheese>Roger, I won't bother with STR_IND_SUPERMARKET then
02:35<andythenorth>removing that string
02:35<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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03:01*andythenorth cracks knuckles, starts changelog
03:01<andythenorth>does hg view on devzone have dubious handling of branches?
03:02<andythenorth>in bitbucket I can view commits for specific branches
03:02<andythenorth>can’t see how to do that on devzone
03:07<@Alberth>/me uses thg for viewing repository
03:13<andythenorth>I could get a local client I guess
03:13<andythenorth>I’ve always resisted getting a GUI client for VCS, I think they hide away too much
03:14<andythenorth>click button, magic happens
03:14<@Alberth>http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GraphlogExtension
03:16<andythenorth>ah that one :)
03:16<andythenorth>that works
03:17<andythenorth>I could probably filter on default branch if I bothered to read the manual :D
03:18<@Alberth>you could :)
03:19<@Alberth>I use thg only for browsing and annotations, I tried a few other things, but the cmd line was just as simple
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03:49<andythenorth>Supercheese: how’s the translation going? o_O
03:50<Supercheese>18 strings remain
03:50*andythenorth has done changelog etc
03:51<andythenorth>ping me when you’re done
03:51<Supercheese>17, roger
03:51*andythenorth wonders what the players will think of this release
03:52<andythenorth>changes Full FIRS a bit
03:53<andythenorth>hmm
03:53<andythenorth>repeatable asserts on the industry chain view
03:54<andythenorth>just not sure how I’m repeating them
03:54<andythenorth>also changed newgrfs in the savegame, so might be spurious
03:55<andythenorth>seems to be if I use the cargo drop-down, then use the industry drop-down
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04:14<andythenorth>hrm
04:14*andythenorth ponders
04:35<Supercheese>just 5 more now
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04:43<andythenorth>Tropic Basic economy is probably wrong
04:43<andythenorth>but not convinced yet
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04:57<andythenorth>hrm, should just rework it
04:58<Supercheese>and the last one, "bulk terminal" hmmm
04:58<andythenorth>yeah tricky one that
04:58<Supercheese>remove it then I won't have to translate it :P
04:59<andythenorth>you can use variants on harbour
04:59<andythenorth>or whatever
04:59<andythenorth>I gave it a clunky name to distinguish it clearly from the more generic Port
05:01<andythenorth>Supercheese: you could interpret: Big Ships Harbour or something
05:01<Supercheese>indeed
05:01<andythenorth>or just Big Harbour
05:01<andythenorth>these industries change cargos in every economy
05:01<andythenorth>all that matters is that player can tell them apart
05:01<andythenorth>meaning in every case is ‘some kind of harbour’
05:11<Supercheese>Ok, all are now translated
05:13<Supercheese>and I can't see any obvious errors - though chances are I'll discover some silly mistakes I made later :P
05:14<Supercheese>oh guess I should ping like you said andythenorth
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05:17<andythenorth>k ta
05:17*andythenorth not in the mood to rework a whole economy
05:17<andythenorth>so going to release
05:18<andythenorth>hmm
05:18<andythenorth>Alberth: do you know a way to force eints to commit changes to a project repo?
05:18<andythenorth>otherwise tag will be missing today’s updates
05:18<@Alberth>nope
05:19<@Alberth>could download the languages manually
05:19<andythenorth>or tag tonight
05:19<andythenorth>it’s not that pressing, it’s > 12 months since last tag
05:19<@Alberth>or ask nicely to an admin :)
05:20<@Alberth>but haven't seen those yet :)
05:25<Supercheese>I think Attenborough once did a special on the rare species of S. admin ;)
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05:26<Wolf01>moin
05:36<andythenorth>meh, FIRS Tropic Basic should be called “Tropic boring economy where you connect all the farms up to FMSP”
05:37<NGC3982>FMSP?
05:37<andythenorth>farm supplies
05:37<NGC3982>Ah
06:02<@Alberth>moin
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06:19<supermop>yo
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06:43<supermop>rode a track bike for 40km on a gravel trail because i am an idiot today
06:47<NGC3982>:D
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07:06<supermop>ok im beat, good night
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07:58<andythenorth>quak
07:58<frosch123>moin
07:58<V453000>hy
07:59<andythenorth>lo V453000 also
07:59<V453000>hihi :)ú
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08:01<V453000>roads/tracks time :)
08:17*andythenorth remaking Tropic economy time
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08:24<V453000>:D
08:24<V453000>werent you remaking something else just a while back?
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>so, you're just now realizing that andy has one of the most unstable minds on this planet? :p
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08:32<@planetmaker>moin
08:33<@planetmaker>frosch123: got the link to the credits script or me again?
08:33<NGC3982>Three marks for muster mark.
08:33<frosch123>planetmaker: i am just improving it :)
08:33<@planetmaker>ah... nvm. my memory worked
08:35<@planetmaker>frosch123: you can commit that to http://hg.openttdcoop.org/misc in the 'compiler' folder?
08:36<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: no but I didnt want to be cruel and pretend otherwise :P
08:36<@planetmaker>in principle you can then also modify jenkins_build.sh, call that script in the appropriate place and modify jenkins_postbuild.sh to copy the credits.txt and you're done adding it to all newgrf projects
08:37<@planetmaker>if you don't I shall have a look either late today or tomorrow; I'm not home right now and I'm expected for tea and dinner soon
08:38<andythenorth>V453000: what did I remake? I don’t remember remaking anything ever
08:38<V453000>XD
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08:43<Flygon>How long does a coal mine typically last if it doesn't supply anything?
08:45<andythenorth>there is no typically
08:45<andythenorth>it’s probabilistic, depends also on number on map, economy settings etc
08:46<andythenorth>it might have a statistical pattern if someone ran enough games and logged closures
08:46<andythenorth>:)
08:47<Flygon>Oh
08:47<Flygon>Damn.
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08:57<andythenorth>meh
08:57<andythenorth>I’ve tried two configurations of port industries in Full FIRS economy
08:57<andythenorth>one is illogical but fun to play
08:57<andythenorth>the other is highly logical, but tedious
09:00*andythenorth puzzled
09:01<@Alberth>2 full economies?
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: there's a grace period of about 5 years, then it could close any month
09:02<andythenorth>Alberth: nah :)
09:02*Flygon nod
09:02<Flygon>Thanks, man
09:02<andythenorth>the only reason I’m doing this is because Full FIRS is the result of one rational decision after another
09:03<andythenorth>and it’s boring
09:03<andythenorth>:P
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: split it into "Fun FIRS" and "Logical FIRS" economies
09:03<andythenorth>it needs some kind of shortcuts
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>the name "full" is problematic anyway, get rid of it sooner rather than later
09:05<andythenorth>good point
09:05<andythenorth>now would be a good time
09:05<andythenorth>call it what?
09:06<andythenorth>complex? intense?
09:06-!-gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3741.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>"complex" seems fine, and in line with "basic"
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>make "basic (climate dependent)" the default, then allow "basic (specific climate)" and the other economies as parameter options
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>you could also have "complex (specific climate)" later...
09:11<andythenorth>+1
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09:22<frosch123>andythenorth: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/credits.txt :)
09:23<andythenorth>hurrah
09:23<andythenorth>I went through the translations in changelog this morning, some contributors are missing, but probably pre-dating eints, so probably not in the commit messages
09:24<andythenorth>frosch123: that file is 100% auto-generated?
09:25*andythenorth ponders processing it with FIRS compiler to add the known-missing contributors
09:26<frosch123>yes, it's now generated for almost all projects on devzone
09:26<andythenorth>is the output destination adjustable?
09:27<frosch123>no, not exactly
09:27<andythenorth>nvm
09:27<frosch123>if you want to use it yourself, rather add a copy to firs, and call it there
09:28<andythenorth>ok ta
09:32<frosch123>hmm, oh, right.. there are no jenkins build for gamescripts... so, also no automatic credit files for them
09:33<andythenorth>a project? o_O
09:33<andythenorth>we are having more gamescripts now
09:33<andythenorth>I have at least two ideas beyond Busy Bee, one probably sucks but eh
09:33<frosch123>it also fails for projects using subrepositories, like opengfx-mars; but i guess i don't care about them
09:34<andythenorth>edge cases
09:34<andythenorth>subrepos are always odd
09:50<andythenorth>eh controversial idea
09:50<andythenorth>a FIRS economy without fishing
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>why is that controversial?
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>"landlocked FIRS"
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>no oil rigs, no fishing stuff
09:59<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: andy is an english man, no water is unrealistic for him
09:59<andythenorth>this is a very good point
10:00<andythenorth>can’t imagine being stuck in a continent
10:00<andythenorth>being in the middle of Canada for three months freaked me out
10:00<andythenorth>don’t like boats much mind
10:00<andythenorth>also
10:00<andythenorth>I am revamping FIRS Tropic Basic
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>never played that
10:01<andythenorth>in Brazil & Argentina, the sugar refineries produce ethanol
10:01<andythenorth>which is handy because there’s one in the game, and I’m consolidating some things
10:01<andythenorth>but is ethanol Chemicals or Petrol, for gameplay purposes?
10:01<andythenorth>probably petrol
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>fuel
10:01<andythenorth>yeah, petrol is a coverall term for fuel
10:02<andythenorth>I originally had fuel oil, but people found it weird
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the nuances of these terms
10:03<andythenorth>don’t think it matters much
10:03<andythenorth>just using irc to think out loud
10:03<andythenorth>there is a small child here pushing around a box on wheels
10:03<andythenorth>he is not much use at game design
10:03<andythenorth>actually, that’s untrue, he’s inventing his own game as I watch
10:03<andythenorth>but it’s not good
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10:17<andythenorth>hrm, loads of possibilities for this economy
10:28-!-pxr [~Mychomize@46-236-110-230.customer.t3.se] has joined #openttd
11:11<andythenorth>hmm can’t log in to newgrf wiki
11:11<andythenorth>says I need a TTD account
11:11<andythenorth>but I’m using my TTD auth creds
11:12<andythenorth>TTF / TTD /S
11:13<frosch123>works for me
11:16<V453000>BANNED
11:18<andythenorth>I reset my forums password last year
11:19<andythenorth>dunno if I’ve logged into the wiki since then
11:19<andythenorth>was going to add BEAN to the cargo labels
11:20<andythenorth>or BNZZ
11:28<andythenorth>Supercheese: sorry, making more translations :D
11:28<andythenorth>going to delay a FIRS release
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12:33<FUZxxl_>Hello!
12:33<FUZxxl_>How many rating points do I need to demolish a church?
12:38<andythenorth>ha ha the FIRS compile is such a lot of gaffer tape and string
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27121 /trunk/src/lang (irish.txt latin.txt) (2015-01-18 17:45:32 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>irish - 2 changes by tem
12:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 1 changes by Supercheese
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12:56<FUZxxl_>:-(
12:56<FUZxxl_>So I will suffer
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>church needs very high rating.
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>but there's a wiki page for that.
13:02<FUZxxl_>which?
13:02<FUZxxl_>I haven't found one.
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>probably the game mechanics one
13:20<FUZxxl>well, that page does not list the minimal rating for each building. It just says “Destroy a building / Rating Required: 40 to 300”
13:20<FUZxxl>It doesn't say what buildings require what rating.
13:26<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/DefaultHouseProps <- FUZxxl: second to last column
13:28<frosch123>the positive score is devided in steps of 200 from 0 to 1000 with mediocre (0-200), good, very good, execellent, outstanding (800-1000)
13:28<frosch123>so, for most houses you need mediocre, for some you need good
13:29<frosch123>though you need to be upper-mediocre, or upper-good :p
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13:36<FUZxxl>thank you
13:46<andythenorth>hrm
13:46<andythenorth>these farm clusters just ain’t fun
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>"horrible ressource management"?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they are
13:47<andythenorth>deliving tedious supplies?
13:47<andythenorth>delivering *
13:47<andythenorth>also the initial production is sized for trucks, but with supplies it’s big enough for a train
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>so?
13:48<andythenorth>boring to rebuild
13:48<andythenorth>and supplies are very fragile, so easy to have a lot of stuck trains
13:49<andythenorth>how to make supplies less fragile? o_O
13:49*NGC3982 buys his first game in ten years.
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>stockpiling for supplies
13:50<andythenorth>looking increasingly plausible
13:50<andythenorth>with acceptance refusal?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>supplies are consumed every month, but you can deliver every three months
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>stockpiles above three months are discarded unused (but still paid for)
13:51<andythenorth>this looks really tedious to play http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7023/farm_cluster.png
13:52<andythenorth>have to provide delivery at every station, observing industry north tile rules where overlap can’t be avoided
13:52<andythenorth>also two kinds of pickup
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>looks fine to me
13:52<andythenorth>and it’s on slopes, so routing is harder
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe increase the minimum distance between farms
13:53<andythenorth>well
13:53<andythenorth>then I can’t station walk :P
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>the slopiness you cannot change from the newgrf
13:53<andythenorth>ah I see a problem
13:53<andythenorth>I want all the cluster within station walking distance for pickup
13:53<andythenorth>but far enough apart for delivering supplies to each
13:53<andythenorth>this is a bad design goal
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds silly
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>use a feeder system, not station walking
13:53<andythenorth>flawed
13:53<andythenorth>feeders are not very fun
13:54<@Alberth>not in 1883, where trains can't climb a 1 tile hill :p
13:54<andythenorth>lots of clicking
13:54<andythenorth>yak-shaving
13:54<andythenorth>how about
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>i love feeders
13:54<@Alberth>why do you have clusters then?
13:54<andythenorth>fewer farms per cluster, higher production, slightly more spaced out?
13:54<andythenorth>Alberth: because often I am wrong
13:54<@Alberth>(I do like clusters though)
13:55<andythenorth>I have ideas
13:55<andythenorth>then we find why they’re flawed
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make it a setting?
13:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: maybe
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>the whole point of clusters was feeder systems...
13:56<andythenorth>yes, but I’ve neglected scaling them properly
13:56<andythenorth>in Full FIRS (complex, whatever we call it), there are many more industries
13:56<andythenorth>so each cluster is much smaller
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13:56<@Alberth>oh, you're using the original baseset of course, the screen shot looked different :)
13:57<andythenorth>there’s another option? :P
13:57<andythenorth>in the basic economies, many fewer industries (~18 vs 51)
13:57<@Alberth>/me ponders answering zBase
13:57<andythenorth>I should handle the scaling
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>scaling by map size, number of industry types, etc.
13:58<@Alberth>sounds nice to scale
13:58<@Alberth>makes the basic economies also more different to play
13:59<andythenorth>scales by map size, but not num industry types
14:00<V453000>zbase ._.
14:01<V453000>actually I will start using zbase soon :D
14:01<V453000>once I finish RAWR :)
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: num types that take part in the cluster
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so for farm cluster, count all farm types
14:02*andythenorth is looking for the map size scaling code
14:02<andythenorth>this is a bit of FIRS I didn’t write
14:02<andythenorth>it’s all CPP
14:02<andythenorth>it doesn’t have any concept of economies and such
14:02<@Alberth>V: No need to make a new baseset before you're allowed to use a different one :)
14:02<andythenorth>it looks worth coming back to this in future though
14:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if I convert the cluster code generation to python in future…I am wondering if an algorithm can be devised to reliably cluster for any industry type in any economy for any map size....
14:04<andythenorth>seems like it should be possible
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>needs more specification of what goes in and what comes out
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>out: number of clusters, average cluster size
14:05<andythenorth>I’d need to understand current code first :)
14:06<andythenorth>I think you wrote the original spec
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>in: number of industries, size of industry, map size, ...
14:06<andythenorth>number of clusters is a define somewhere, scaled by map size, I think
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>i might have made some suggestions, but i certainly didn't write anything...
14:07<andythenorth>someone wrote a map scaling routing, not me :)
14:07<andythenorth>what’s the optimum number of industries in a cluster? About 5?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>there are afair two kinds of clusters. mine clusters and agriculture clusters
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>mine clusters have fewer but larger industries
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>where agriculture clusters have more smaller industries
14:08<andythenorth>yes, that’s handled somewhere
14:08<V453000>Alberth: no but it is just utter shit, my eyes are dying when looking at the emptiness of zbase
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to make cluster generation more flexible, you should unify those
14:09<@Alberth>V453000: yep, I fully agree :)
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>so this algorithm can output numbers for any kind of cluster
14:09<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69
14:10<andythenorth>dunno what that’s doing
14:10<andythenorth>mindistance and maxdistance are obvious
14:10<andythenorth>tweaking those gives better results, at least for the map size I just tested, in multiple economies
14:10<frosch123>V453000: do you know about static newgrf?
14:10<andythenorth>where is industry_clusters coming from, /me wonders
14:10<V453000>frosch123: which newgrf to use? :P
14:10<andythenorth>ah industry_clusters = (relative_map_size / 2) + 1;
14:11<V453000>yes I know about it ... never used it though
14:11<andythenorth>dunno what mult and div do
14:11<frosch123>V453000: well, it's the thing you should do as long as rawr is no complete baseset
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14:11<V453000>yeah I will :)
14:13<V453000>most of the time I will just add RAWR to the game though :P
14:13<V453000>simple nuff
14:13<andythenorth>hrm
14:13<andythenorth>mult and div are set higher for mines
14:14<andythenorth>and some farms
14:14<andythenorth>dunno what that means
14:14<andythenorth>hmm some secondaries use CHECK_NEARBY_CLUSTER
14:15<andythenorth>it’s fun having a codebase where I don’t understand 30% of it
14:15<@Alberth>multi and div is just a factor ( x * mult / div )
14:16<@Alberth>but split into 2 numbers for more precision
14:17<andythenorth>so somehow that code is controlling the number of clusters to build?
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14:21<V453000>hm do diagonal tracks need to be wider than normal full-tile tracks? :d
14:22<V453000>I guess they do, same reason as with trains being 141% longer
14:22<NGC3982>I just realized what alt+Enter did to OpenTTD.
14:23<frosch123>it's a standard hotkey, though recently it is getting replaced by F11 i think
14:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sound like a reasonable solution to this repeatedly-complained-about problem? :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7410
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you can fuzz it a tiny bit, but if you make the scaling too exact, the changes between diagonal and straight will be off...
14:33<V453000>yeah that is what I figure
14:34<V453000>I will try the precise thing for now
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>Alt+Enter was already a standard hotkey in Win 3.1
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it grew out of fashion with the reduction of DOS applications
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>the F11 thing seems to come from browsers
14:38<frosch123>hotkeys change over time, the worst example that comes to mind is the acrobat reader
14:38<frosch123>"goto page" has always been ctrl+g or ctrl+l, in acrobat it was changed to ctrl+shift+n or something silly
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>in the DOS version of WordPerfect, "help" was F3.
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>WordPerfect was fun, it came with a bar that you could place above F1..F12 keys that showed the functions they would do, with Alt,Shift and Ctrl modifiers. so 4 functions per key
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14:48<Wolf01>heh, do you remember the hotkeys for saving in notepad, wordpad and office (word, excel..)?
14:50<frosch123>it's F2 in turbo pascal
14:51<frosch123>help - save - open - step until line - maximize - switch window - step - next - run - menu
14:51<frosch123>all correct?
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember using ctrl+F9 regularly
14:51<frosch123>not sure about maximize/switch window, maybe they were the other way around :p
14:52<frosch123>i belive F9 is comile, ctrl+f9 is compile and run or so
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>F5 for maximize sounds right
14:54<frosch123>http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/user/userse32.html <- yup, all correct
14:54<frosch123>can't remember using F11 or F12
14:54<frosch123>also i would have difficulties with the ctrl+Fx ones
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, i know some of the starwriter commands (Ctrl+K,<whatever>)
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember the Ctrl+Q ones
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, i never used freepascal. i had borland pascal 7 (dos&windows), delphi 2 and later delphi 6
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>but it's at least 10 years ago since i used that
14:59<frosch123>the freepascal hotkeys are identical to turbo pascal
15:00<frosch123>i also never used the freepascal ide
15:01<shempi>hmm, is there a way to have vehicles automatically replaced when they get old?
15:01<shempi>particularly buses
15:01<frosch123>yes, look on the wiki for "autorenew"
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>there are two methods to replace vehicles. a) when they are old, they get replaced with the same type, or b) any time they go to the depot they will be replaced by another type
15:05<Wolf01>"Windows +CTRL+SHIFT+[number]: run as administrator the [number] app on the app bar" nice one, I missed that
15:07<shempi>frosch123: Eddi|zuHause: cool, thanks
15:07<Wolf01>and now I need a shortcut to resize a window to a quadrant, instead of half screen, on ubuntu 9 (last time I used it, lol) I had that one
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15:15<V453000>hm tunnels look awful low :D
15:15<V453000>hax
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>tunnel portals are already visually enlarged
15:19<V453000>yeah I just noticed :D
15:20<V453000>looking at the sloped tile shows that quite well :D
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15:55<@planetmaker>g'evening
15:56<V453000>hi :)
15:56<Taede>ello
16:01<XeryusTC>yo
16:03<frosch123>planetmaker: to summarize, gen_credits works for most newgrf :) it fails for obvious reasons with projects using subrepos, and for game scripts since none of them are build on jenkins
16:03<andythenorth>ugh, /me made an outsized diff
16:04<andythenorth>had to fix bugs mid-way through revising an economy :(
16:04<@planetmaker>Well, that's expected for sub-repos. Could be checked for by checking the project type in .devzone/build/type. But... meh :)
16:04<frosch123>well, it's no error
16:04<@planetmaker>and for GS: they can easily be added to Jenkins. Just no-one requested that yet. I'm not against that, not at all. Actually I like that :)
16:05<frosch123>well, gs are all different :p
16:05<@planetmaker>they are :)
16:05<frosch123>busy-bee requires to run make bundle, while most others just need a source bundle
16:05<@planetmaker>yep. But easy to add busy-bee
16:05<@planetmaker>It's not like GS need much...
16:05<frosch123>well, problem is the version number
16:06<@Alberth>/me ponders adding some graphics
16:06<frosch123>if ottd shall display them reliably it needs an increasing version number
16:06<frosch123>so, actually busy-bee is the only one working :p
16:06<@Alberth>\o/ :D
16:06<andythenorth>running make on bundles is a nice basic regression test
16:06<andythenorth>for common case of, e.g. “I forgot to add file”
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: doesn't work for gs
16:07<andythenorth>currently, or ever?
16:07<V453000>hm, putting everything in one file is not the most fortunate for compiling either :)
16:07<V453000>one change = no cache :D
16:07<V453000>buuuut meh :)
16:08<frosch123>well, we have no squirrel compiler that checks whether all files dynamically imported files are present
16:08<@planetmaker>V453000, for graphics, for sure. No good idea. Some intermediate approach is usually fine. Like one tileset for landscape per file. If you change one, you change the others likely, too, anyway
16:08<@planetmaker>could be added, such compiler, though
16:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: planetmaker: I have no objections if you want to experiment with busy bee building
16:09<V453000>idk how to mass-convert 32bpp files to 8bpp though
16:09<@planetmaker>aye :)
16:09<V453000>so since I do it manually, less files == more convenient
16:09<andythenorth>after un-breaking FIRS, I might have a look at Busy Bee
16:09<@planetmaker>you're not using a script?
16:09<V453000>not going to remake stuff :)
16:09<V453000>no? :)
16:09<andythenorth>part of me wants to finish converting FIRS to python
16:09<V453000>everything I do is manual
16:09<andythenorth>but probably TMWFTLB, and will add bugs :P
16:10<V453000>well, except the automated stuff through graphics programs
16:10<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1140964#p1140964 <-- frosch123 do you have a nice reply there? And to discourage use of GEAR cargo?
16:10<@Alberth>there goes you banner "all pixels are hand made" V :)
16:10<V453000>XD
16:11<@Alberth>make an industry set for it, with real cargo :p
16:12<andythenorth>I replied
16:12<frosch123>planetmaker: there is no way to check for free cargo id slots. i am not aware of anyone ever using grm for cargos, since it was weirdly incomplete or so. if he wants to use gear, the obvious approach is to use the same cargo id as other sets using gear, since it is most likely that that id is free then. other than that, i do not care, there is no good reply for subtype related stuff :)
16:13<@planetmaker>:)
16:13<@planetmaker>Just write that :P
16:14*andythenorth unbreaks FIRS :|
16:14<andythenorth>frigging slow compile to test the unbreaking
16:14<andythenorth>my computer has compiled FIRS for about 2 hours today
16:15<andythenorth>I have found a lot of things to do meanwhile :P
16:16<@Alberth>multitasking bees
16:17*andythenorth wonders if building one FIRS grf per economy would be faster on average
16:17<andythenorth>more grfs in the wild though
16:17<andythenorth>just realised I have only one industry slot left
16:17<andythenorth>that game-overs some of the planned economies
16:18<andythenorth>can’t overlap industry IDs even in different economies, because one nml compile
16:18<frosch123>untrue
16:18<andythenorth>will lead to spurious results on location checks (which use IDs)
16:19<frosch123>you just need some "if"
16:19<andythenorth>I have a lot of ‘if’ already
16:19<andythenorth>getting a bit scared of the if :(
16:20*andythenorth wonders what the cost is of declaring industry properties multiple times for same industry
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16:21<andythenorth>ho
16:21<andythenorth>if I convert the CPP location checks to python, I can put the ‘if’ in
16:21<andythenorth>AND I can support compiling a subset of the industries
16:21<andythenorth>which is much faster for testing when developing
16:22<andythenorth>currently I can compile a single industry, but I have to comment out location check code in actual src
16:22<andythenorth>which is easily forgotten :P
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16:23<andythenorth>a single industry compile is ~20s, versus > 3 mins for full grf
16:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but you really don't make use of the graphics cache? Or is that being usedß
16:25<@planetmaker>s/ß/?/g
16:26<andythenorth>good q
16:26<frosch123>encoding time is irrelevant for 8bpp 1x grfs :)
16:26<andythenorth>I can’t see nml cache file though for FIRS
16:27<andythenorth>other grfs have it
16:27<andythenorth>hmm, I just ran clean though, and I’m waiting for compile
16:27<frosch123>just add 32bpp 4x sprites to firs, then you won't complain about 3 minutes anymore :p
16:27<andythenorth>ho, I have to run make clean every time
16:28<andythenorth>because I made the makefile ‘properly’
16:28<andythenorth>that can’t be good
16:28<andythenorth>I should revert that commit
16:30<andythenorth>I think it was this one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/105e49f096e8/diff/
16:31<andythenorth>unless I run clean, make won’t build any changes after an initial build
16:31<andythenorth>it ‘builds’, but doesn’t call the python compile
16:32<+glx>then you cleaned the dependancies
16:34<andythenorth>I don’t really understand what the dependencies are :)
16:34<andythenorth>I have tried to understand make before, but it’s just magic
16:34<+glx> $(_V) mv generated/pnml/firs.pnml firs.pnml
16:34<+glx>this line is needed
16:35<andythenorth>that just moves a file somewhere it shouldn’t be?
16:37<+glx>but no lines in this section seems to create the file except mv
16:38<andythenorth>file isn’t needed
16:38<andythenorth>firs.pnml is dead
16:39<+glx>but generated/pnml/firs.pnml is used by the rule
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16:40<andythenorth>yes :)
16:41<andythenorth>that is created by preprocess.py
16:41<andythenorth>but make doesn’t seem to understand that, for the way I this configured
16:41<andythenorth>so it doesn’t call preprocess.py
16:41<andythenorth>* have
16:42<+glx>it runs it if preprocess.py has been modified
16:42<+glx>that's what the rule says
16:42<andythenorth>ah
16:42<andythenorth>so if I edit my compiler, it will be run by make
16:42<andythenorth>but I don’t usually edit my compiler :)
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16:45<andythenorth>this was done previously with a PHONY target
16:45<andythenorth>which worked fine
16:45<andythenorth>but then I learnt that PHONY targets shouldn’t be used
16:46<andythenorth>so I did it ‘properly’
16:46<andythenorth>hmm
16:46<+glx>well you need add the "sources" in dependancies
16:46<andythenorth>maybe I don’t have to run ‘make clean’, maybe I can just manually remove the generated folder every time I want to compile
16:46<+glx>else it won't detect it needs to rebuild
16:47<__ln___>*dependencies
16:47<andythenorth>yeah, I recall being told I needed to list deps before
16:47<+glx>__ln___: I'm french, it's a "a" here ;)
16:47<andythenorth>but manually maintaining deps, I dunno
16:47<andythenorth>writing out a long list of files?
16:47<andythenorth>sounds really dull
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16:48<andythenorth>maybe I can patch my makefile to remove the generated stuff every time
16:48<andythenorth>clean removes the cache files too, which is sad
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16:49<+glx>that's why many projects (including openttd) use tools to generate deps ;)
16:49<andythenorth>I dunno how to do that :)
16:49<+glx>but IIRC you can just add *.ext as dep
16:49<andythenorth>I was already told not to write my own dep checks in python, because it will likely be wrong
16:50<andythenorth>I could just do *.* I guess
16:50<andythenorth>or just *
16:56<andythenorth>ho ho, ‘beans’, the tropic cargo everyone was waiting for
16:56<andythenorth>not
16:56*andythenorth adds it anyway
16:56<frosch123>i like beans
16:58<andythenorth>do you like putting them in trains? o_O
16:59*andythenorth has been making work for FIRS translators
16:59<andythenorth>:P
16:59<frosch123>well, there are multiple colours for beans
16:59<frosch123>so, make a complete bean economy
17:00<frosch123>call it bohnanza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohnanza
17:00<andythenorth>ha
17:03<Supercheese>surprised they didn't change it to Beananza for English
17:03<Supercheese>maybe was a copyright conflict
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17:12<andythenorth>do the cargo IDs (slot numbers) have any significance at all?
17:13<frosch123>only for industry sets
17:13<andythenorth>or rather, can I set them to arbitrary (but stable) values per economy?
17:13<andythenorth>does it matter if COAL is 8 in one economy and 32 in another?
17:13<frosch123>pax/mail are fixed, the rest does not matter
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17:14<andythenorth>worth knowing thanks :)
17:14<frosch123>need to be constant for savegame reasons ofc
17:14<andythenorth>yup
17:14<andythenorth>I’m breaking savegames this release, so might be a nice time to clean them up
17:14<andythenorth>already they overlap, now I’m chasing my tale designing economies because of conflicts
17:15<andythenorth>“no you can’t have coffee, same ID as wool” :P
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17:16<andythenorth>shame I can’t do it based on position in a python list :P
17:16<andythenorth>but not stable
17:16<frosch123>night
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17:16<andythenorth>also
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18:15<Wolf01>'night all
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18:22<Samu>hi, i found a bug, and I think I know how to do it
18:22<Samu>it requires 2 players on the same company but with different company settings
18:23<@planetmaker>Samu, then please create an issue in our bug tracker and describe the procedure how to encounter / reproduce
18:23<Samu>ok, it's about autoreplace
18:23<Samu>will do
18:27<Samu>now that I think about it, maybe it's not a bug
18:28<+glx>lol an autoreplace bug, how surprising ;)
18:28<Samu>he had his own autorenew as off
18:30<@planetmaker>autorenew != autoreplace
18:30<Samu>it was about the money limit
18:31<Samu>I had the game to replace a train engine with a newer one that came available
18:31<Samu>the train "I" created, was replaced immediately at £0 which is what I have for me
18:31<Samu>but the train already in the company when I joined it, created by the other player, was only replaced at £100,000
18:32<Samu>intended or bug?
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18:41<@planetmaker>dunno really
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19:10<Samu>here it is: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6215
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23:14<supermop>yo
---Logclosed Mon Jan 19 00:00:34 2015