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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-21

---Logopened Wed Jan 21 00:00:37 2015
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02:20<andythenorth>o/
02:22<Supercheese>beans
02:24<V453000>nuts
02:28<andythenorth>don’t have nuts yet
02:28<andythenorth>maybe in some economy
02:28<andythenorth>thought of olives
02:28<andythenorth>also wine
02:28<andythenorth>and rice
02:31<andythenorth>hrm
02:32<SpComb>employed professional squirrels
02:34<V453000>my unirail is looking fabulous as fuck
02:35<V453000>should include unicorns
02:38<andythenorth>no pictures, didn’t happen
02:40<V453000>iz renduring
02:40<V453000>on hang you
02:40<@planetmaker>moin
02:40<V453000>hi
02:42<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/RAWR/A_0029.png
02:43<SpComb>I wouldn't want to ride those curves
02:43<SpComb>the unicorns would fall off the tracks
02:43<V453000>mhm :)
02:45<V453000>PS just after I set up the infrastructure yesterday, I suddenly realized I could make tunnels properly SO easily
02:45<V453000>xd
02:45<V453000>redoredoredo
02:50<V453000>I remain amazed at how much forum people shit on rawr though XD
02:54<andythenorth>:9
02:54<andythenorth>:(
02:55<andythenorth>V453000: road crossings for monorail? o_O
02:55<andythenorth>SpComb: unicorns can turn instantly
02:57<V453000>sure
02:57<V453000>road crossings for everything :) dont have roads yet though
02:57<V453000>but roads will be quick stuff
03:00<V453000>also, disallowing road crossings is just a stupid feature, if someone doesnt want to build them, nobody is forcing them
03:03<Supercheese>Hmm, off
03:03<Supercheese>odd*
03:04<Supercheese>OTTD isn't properly grabbing the genetive forms of FIRS cargoes & industries
03:04<andythenorth>so I need another industry and cargo for Tropic Basic
03:04<andythenorth>file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/economies.html
03:04<andythenorth>oops that wn’t work
03:04<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#BASIC_TROPIC
03:04<andythenorth>thinking about Vehicle Factory and adding Vehicle Parts cargo
03:05<Supercheese>with cars that run on alcohol
03:05<andythenorth>well yes
03:05<andythenorth>exactly
03:05<andythenorth>except petrol
03:06<Supercheese>I think those are popular in, like, Brazil
03:06<andythenorth>sugar refinery produces petrol...
03:06<andythenorth>in that economy
03:06<Supercheese>ah
03:06<andythenorth>been looking at Brazil and Argentina for realisms
03:06<andythenorth>they have a lot of agriculture, and quite a lot of secondary industry
03:06<andythenorth>vehicles, planes, electronics etc
03:07*andythenorth has talked self into it
03:08<supermop>is it right that "many rivers" in SE on tropic generates zero rivers?
03:08<V453000>make a scheme. :)
03:08<V453000>see in the chart what goes where and which links you need for good system
03:08<V453000>realisms wont help
03:09<V453000>you will end exactly where you are now :P
03:09<Supercheese>now it works just fine... that was odd
03:09<Supercheese>perhaps I am simply going mad
03:09<andythenorth>V453000: charts are bollocks :)
03:09<andythenorth>make the chart in your head
03:10<V453000>no system = bad newgrf :P
03:10<andythenorth>system is boring
03:10<V453000>does not have to be :)
03:10<andythenorth>honestly, I just don’t have that systematic thinking
03:10<andythenorth>I can’t do it
03:11<V453000>:(
03:11<andythenorth>also systems have stupid rules
03:11<andythenorth>like ‘there cannot be off-map industries like ports’. wrong
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03:11<andythenorth>and ‘you can never create a direct feedback of delivery:supplies for boost’. wrong
03:11<V453000>not really that doesnt have to be a system criteria :)
03:12<V453000>you just need to make every part of the set useful
03:13<andythenorth>also, every design is a system of some sort
03:13<andythenorth>so how do you know which systems are good or bad?
03:13<andythenorth>just having a system isn’t enough
03:13<V453000>you look and ask yourself e.g. is it possible to start with farms, and grow them nicely on their own?
03:14<V453000>OR, you look into the systematic chart and see if any parts have too many/no connections going to them :P
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03:14<Supercheese>whoops
03:14<andythenorth>so .e.g. should farms be able to grow on their own, or not? Which is the good answer?
03:14<V453000>none, you need to see what other chains do :P
03:15<V453000>if other chains are able to grow themselves, then farms should as well, OR they must have a MASSIVE advantage in some other regard
03:15<Supercheese>well, they do grow crops, but does their crop growing growth rate grow or does it just grow at a constant growth rate...
03:15<V453000>some downsides, some bright sides
03:15<V453000>constant unless given supplies from other chains
03:15<V453000>ignoring biorefinery from 2000+
03:16<Supercheese>or just growing without growing growing
03:16<andythenorth>I just broke the farm chain in Full FIRS, I’m playing a game, it’s much better
03:18<andythenorth>some chains are still lame, pointless and boring
03:18<andythenorth>but there’s no dominant chain any more
03:18<V453000>should there be a dominant chain?
03:18<V453000>still, pointless and boring doesnt sound great :P
03:19<andythenorth>I hate the dominant chain thing. That bugs you too, no?
03:19<andythenorth>oil or metal, depending on your map
03:19<V453000>quite
03:19<andythenorth>meh
03:19<andythenorth>and then ENSP just gives you….EVEN MOAR OIL AND METAL
03:19<andythenorth>so 4 track mainlines for iron ore everywhere, and farms aren’t worth bothering with
03:19<andythenorth>boring
03:20<andythenorth>56 industries, and you only need 7 of them
03:20<V453000>yes that is basically what everybody is doing
03:24<andythenorth>V453000: so what is system in YETI?
03:24<andythenorth>I don’t mean flow chart, I’ve seen that on wiki somewhere ;)
03:24<andythenorth>what are the design principles?
03:25<V453000>1. there is one huge mechanism of supplying
03:25<V453000>2. every industry contributes to the mechanism somehow
03:25<V453000>3. the more industry kinds you connect, the more efficient your mechanism will be
03:25<andythenorth>see, that makes sense
03:25<V453000>4. every chain is self-sufficient, just not efficiently
03:25<V453000>4. means you can start with anything you like
03:26<V453000>-> variety
03:26<andythenorth>ok
03:26<andythenorth>so Iron Horse, Road Hog etc have principles
03:26<andythenorth>1. no boring choices
03:26<andythenorth>2. but some choices are good
03:27<andythenorth>3. inspired by realism, but gameplay first w.r.t stats, dates etc
03:27<andythenorth>end of
03:27<andythenorth>FIRS has no principles
03:27<andythenorth>just a giant blob of cargos and industries
03:27<V453000>well the idea of supplies is nice but it could be refined :P
03:28<andythenorth>FIRS is just this http://www.thedancelady.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/20140313_115725.jpg
03:28<V453000>omg XD
03:29<andythenorth>FIRS had some principles originally
03:29<andythenorth>1. provides reason to put off-road vehicles into HEQS, and supply ships into FISH
03:29<andythenorth>2. has many more chains than default ttd
03:29<V453000>1. not exactly, dudes often do it with trains :P
03:29<andythenorth>3. does not include annoying behaviours from other known industry sets
03:30<V453000>2. undoubtedly :D
03:30<V453000>3. is great fun compared to other shit
03:30<andythenorth>3. caused a lot of behaviour to be designed as ‘is not like xyz’
03:31<andythenorth>none of those principles are interesting or good
03:31<V453000>many people with lesser knowledge still play firs? :P
03:34<andythenorth>I still play FIRS :P
03:34<andythenorth>even
03:34<V453000>isnt that enough? :)
03:35<andythenorth>nah, needs new principles
03:35<andythenorth>otherwise just goes round in circles or such
03:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the principle of FIRS is excellent. If it needs another one, it might well be another set :)
03:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: the principles 1-3 above?
03:36<andythenorth>or some other?
03:37<@planetmaker>well :)
03:37<V453000>yeah why not make a new set and let FIRS live :D
03:37<@planetmaker>I mostly talk of how "playing with it feels"
03:37<@planetmaker>to me it seems quite well-balanced
03:39<andythenorth>V453000: FIRS 2.0.0 is somewhere in the future, not right now, but opportunity to change things
03:40<andythenorth>FIRS 1.x.x I’m not changing the supplies mechanics or production or anything, just tweaking economies
03:40<andythenorth>and sprites
03:40<V453000>it doesnt even need to be firs 2.0 :P
03:40<V453000>something completely different
03:40<V453000>not to carry any old feature wtf with you
03:40<andythenorth>apparently brand awareness is important :P
03:40<andythenorth>but eh
03:41<V453000>for one, I would say the production callback produce_256 is way superior :P
03:41<andythenorth>for?
03:41<V453000>you are the brand, people are very aware which newGRFs are from you :)
03:41<V453000>for everything
03:41<andythenorth>instead of on delivery?
03:41<V453000>a TON of control over how much you are producing
03:42<V453000>see how YETI works, no production_multiplier shizzle
03:42<V453000>delivered amount -> produced amount
03:42<V453000>always
03:42<V453000>sure, primaries can be a bit different
03:42<V453000>but the dynamic thing when they can change production is nice
03:43*andythenorth wonders what FIRS is using
03:43<V453000>the production multipliers probably
03:43<andythenorth>nah
03:43<V453000>if supplies delivered in month whatever, set multiplier of production to XY
03:43<V453000>no?
03:43<andythenorth>primaries are on 256
03:44<andythenorth>my plan was to change that
03:44<andythenorth>so that they used production multiplier correctly
03:44<andythenorth>so GS could control them
03:44<andythenorth>but I never did it, because I don’t understand current code
03:45<andythenorth>and also, is it good?
03:45<V453000>idk, to me 3 production stages just sounds not enough
03:45<andythenorth>you mean the boost options?
03:45<V453000>especially if I reach the third after 2 years of playing
03:45<andythenorth>they suck currently
03:45<V453000>needs moar depth
03:45*andythenorth is not understanding :)
03:48<andythenorth>V453000 you mean the FIRS boosts, or the standard prod. multiplier behaviour?
03:49<V453000>FIRS boosts
03:49<V453000>you get normal-extra-gungho
03:49<V453000>needs moar stages
03:50<V453000>and the player should need to care over the industries for longer time in order to get to the highest stages imo
03:50<andythenorth>I dunno
03:50<andythenorth>I am thinking that might be a valid parameter
03:50<andythenorth>if you play NCG or SV, especially in multiplayer competitive
03:50<andythenorth>then you just want max boost fast
03:51<V453000>meeh
03:51<V453000>short term players :)
03:51<andythenorth>I have played almost-sandbox games, and quadruple is stupid
03:51<andythenorth>when you just want to build vehicles and watch them, then quadruple is a PITA
03:51<V453000>but yeah at least having it parametrized would be nice:P
03:51<V453000>quadruple is quite low still, very manageable
03:51<andythenorth>quadruple means cloning shitloads of vehicles
03:51<andythenorth>but if your supply fails, then you have massive jams
03:51<andythenorth>not relaxing
03:51<V453000>esp compared to what YETI does to you once you connect at least 2 chains :P
03:52<andythenorth>I know in coop games, supply never fails :P
03:52<andythenorth>and train jams are unheard of
03:52<andythenorth>but still, it’s work
03:52<V453000>if you do it right. :)
03:53<andythenorth>I think whatever new FIRS is, it needs supplies thought about a lot
03:54<V453000>cant do anything wrong with thinking about stuff :P
03:54<andythenorth>fuck thinking about it
03:54<andythenorth>needs new ideas coding and testing
03:55<andythenorth>so you’d want something like…Current Production Level: Epic
03:55<andythenorth>>?
03:55<V453000>well the max could raise slightly, but would have to become harder to reach, much harder to reach
03:55<V453000>but I would like to see e.g. 10 stages of production instead of 3
03:56<andythenorth>and what, quite fragile, like current supplies (miss a few months and you’re back on normal), or more robust?
03:56<Supercheese>Current Production Level: >9,000
03:56<V453000>there it gets more various
03:57<V453000>you could keep delivered in month Y -> give output, delivered amount was X -> give amount
03:57<V453000>buuut
03:57<V453000>you could have some form of delivered supplies getting instantly processed
03:57<V453000>but yeah then it becomes Yeti :)
03:59<andythenorth>yeah, not that
03:59<andythenorth>I don’t want in:out for primaries
04:00<andythenorth>that’s better done elsewhere
04:00<andythenorth>hmm
04:00<andythenorth>stockpiling
04:00<andythenorth>and acceptance refusal
04:00<andythenorth>are both awesome no?
04:01<V453000>no XD
04:03<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=183062
04:03<V453000>there are some not so great things like missing shadows on the overlay sprites, but other than that.. :)
04:03<V453000>could be worse
04:04<V453000>needs moar specular on the track though
04:06<andythenorth>fundations are nice
04:06*andythenorth -> shower, work etc
04:06<andythenorth>stockpiling in FIRS
04:06<andythenorth>probably
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04:07<andythenorth>then one station can cover multiple industries, super-useful feature, no more feeders
04:07<V453000>omfg
04:07<V453000>that is totally not a good idea
04:07<V453000>I mean, noobs will love it but that is really, really bad
04:07<andythenorth>they won’t love it :P
04:07<andythenorth>“why did my industry stop accepting"
04:08<andythenorth>“because the game can’t deliver to multiple industries from one station"
04:08<andythenorth>“wtf"
04:08<V453000>well sure but they can build LESS to get the same result
04:08<V453000>lazy -> will love
04:08<andythenorth>nah
04:08<andythenorth>it only works for the case where you have multiple industry accepting same cargo for one station
04:08<andythenorth>which is not that common
04:08<andythenorth>it fricking sucks for the common case
04:09<andythenorth>lazy -> will have to deliver their cargo elsewhere
04:09<V453000>station walk ftw sure
04:09<andythenorth>nah, have to learn conditional orders
04:09<andythenorth>which are impossible for actual humans to use
04:09<V453000>xd
04:09<andythenorth>what is the point of conditional orders?
04:10<V453000>amazing things you can do
04:10<V453000>esp in city networks
04:10<V453000>also in refit networks
04:10<V453000>also in any place where you want to do some check :>
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04:11<andythenorth>idk
04:11<andythenorth>it just seems to be a very odd solution to ‘load some number < 100%'
04:11<andythenorth>instead of providing ‘load 50%'
04:11<andythenorth>send trains in a circle to other stations, checking the loaded amount each time
04:11<V453000>when full, go drop :)
04:12<V453000>go to every station in a city, go unload passengers when full :)
04:12<V453000>great usefulness
04:12<andythenorth>seems to be under the ‘gameplay should not be fun, it’s supposed to be serious work’ school of thinking
04:12<andythenorth>which pops up here sometimes
04:12<V453000>skip a loop in refit orders when train is empty and ahs no point to continue
04:12<V453000>not really
04:12<V453000>just allows for more complicated things, that is all
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04:13<V453000>you are asking for a feature which would add something new, but altering conditional orders would probably disable them from being able to do what they do now, which is good
04:13<V453000>you dont want to alter conditional orders, you want something new :)
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04:14<andythenorth>no argument
04:15<andythenorth>I’m just perplexed why conditional orders were seen as best solution to partial loading
04:15<V453000>is partial loading useful for anything?
04:15<V453000>you want partial unloading mainly, I assume
04:15<andythenorth>:o
04:15<andythenorth>that would be awesome too
04:16<andythenorth>also timetables are apparently the solution to partial loading
04:16<andythenorth>but timetables don’t work
04:16<andythenorth>partial loading is for cases like, this ship won’t make money with < 30% loaded
04:17<V453000>that doesnt make sense
04:17<V453000>why would you then make the ship load e.g. 60%
04:17<V453000>while you could load 100%
04:17<andythenorth>yes
04:17<andythenorth>exactly
04:18<andythenorth>you set a partial load %
04:18<andythenorth>to handle that case
04:18<V453000>-> when would you want to load only e.g. 30%?
04:18<V453000>no, why? :D
04:18<V453000>what would that help
04:18<andythenorth>because at < 30% you don’t make money? o_O
04:18<V453000>you can just get a smaller capacity vehicle
04:18<V453000>sure, but the ship is loading 100%
04:18<andythenorth>disproportionate supply at one end of the route?
04:18<V453000>xd
04:18<andythenorth>large town > small town
04:19<andythenorth>industry with varying production
04:19<andythenorth>etc
04:19<V453000>then nothing will help
04:19<V453000>if you set any requirement to the smaller town it can always be bad
04:19<andythenorth>well the current solutions are:
04:19<V453000>just loading whatever is there currently is best
04:19<andythenorth>- run the vehicle empty a lot of the time
04:19<V453000>because there isnt anything extra? :P
04:19<andythenorth>- weird conditional orders with stations that are literally just there so some code can run
04:19<andythenorth>- timetables, which don’t work
04:20<andythenorth>currently I choose timetables
04:20<andythenorth>but they suck so much
04:21<V453000>you dont need to solve the situation XD
04:21<V453000>just full load a t the bigger town and done
04:21<V453000>load anything at the smaller town, you pick up everything at both ends
04:21<V453000>sure, the smaller town will have poor ratings because stuff arrives less
04:21<V453000>can be fixed with a transfer station
04:21<V453000>which is also nicer when the town grows real big
04:22<andythenorth>you could be right
04:23<andythenorth>could be one of those features that is wanted, and turns out to be useless
04:23<andythenorth>does this also mean I can stop using timetables, which are broken?
04:23<V453000>yes? :D
04:23<V453000>perhaps you are trying to fix a nonexistent issue
04:24<V453000>you can easily make both towns satisfied
04:27<andythenorth>problem isn’t town satisfaction :)
04:27<andythenorth>it’s vehicle profit
04:27<andythenorth>but maybe that’s a non issue
04:27<andythenorth>over-optimising the wrong thing
04:27<andythenorth>anyway, gtg
04:27<andythenorth>fun chat
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07:04<__ln__>http://imgur.com/gallery/CSYak5Q
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07:59<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/UX9oVCj.png
07:59<NGC3982>Critisism, please.
08:00<lastmikoi>lacks purple.
08:00<shempi>i r8 8/8
08:00<NGC3982>Gr8.
08:01<lastmikoi>still, it lacks purple.
08:05<NGC3982>Bah, the usual we-accept-goods-now-but-not-later issue.
08:05<NGC3982>:(
08:13<Flygon_>NGC2982: You need more smokestacks
08:13<Flygon_>Preferably purple
08:13-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:13<NGC3982>S..smokestacks? :)
08:14<shempi>Flygon: oh hey, you play openttd?
08:14<shempi>...not sure why I'm surprised at that, heh
08:21<Flygon>shempi?
08:21<Flygon>S-s-shempi s-senpai?
08:21<shempi>:3
08:21<Flygon>Who are you in the other world? :P
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09:34<@Belugas>hello
09:42<V453000>heyoo
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12:41<andythenorth>V453000: lo
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12:57<frosch123>V453000: don't your tunnels glitch horribly with vehicles?
12:57<frosch123>i beliefe the roof has to extent at least half into the tile
12:57<frosch123>vehicles are hidden at that point
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14:00<andythenorth>o/
14:01<andythenorth>where is V453000 (whose opinion I want)
14:01*andythenorth also avoiding doing tax return
14:10<andythenorth>desert http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=515343&nseq=0
14:21<@Alberth>looks a bit grey
14:26<andythenorth>they should change the render settings
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14:41<Wolf01>hi hi
14:41<@Alberth>o/
14:47<Wolf01>to transfer or to not transfer the nintendo netowrk account on the new 3ds.. this is the real problem
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14:53<andythenorth>hmm
14:53*andythenorth plays
14:54<andythenorth>Alberth: can’t give you my savegame, uses local dev grfs, but it’s interesting how a BB network develops
14:55<@Alberth>all over the map, I suppose?
14:57<frosch123>does it consider the areas you already service? or does it result in a lot of disconnected single lines?
15:00<andythenorth>this is 40 years in https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7027/BB_game.png
15:00<andythenorth>cargo flow chart is probably best explanation for network style :)
15:00<andythenorth>everything there is prompted originally by BB, then making supporting connections
15:00<frosch123>looks like ships+rv+aircraft :p no trains
15:01<andythenorth>nearly all trains
15:01<andythenorth>no aircraft
15:01<andythenorth>98 trains
15:01<andythenorth>86 RVs
15:01<andythenorth>108 ships
15:01<andythenorth>so not nearly all trains :P
15:01*andythenorth wrong
15:03<@Alberth>it doesn't look for extending your network in particular, it's just simple random cargo, random distance, find a nice destination
15:04<@Alberth>but you can build your own connections as well
15:04<andythenorth>hmm, where is my SV game screenshot? :P
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15:05<andythenorth>last game I played was an awesome SV manufacturing supplies game, everything focussed on one corner of map
15:05<andythenorth>so the cargo flow was a very large set of primary nodes, delivering to a smaller set of secondary
15:05<@Alberth>got a bit crowded in the corner :p
15:05<andythenorth>then all secondary to one hub, with 5 tertiary nodes for goal delivery
15:05<andythenorth>very pretty
15:06<@Alberth>sounds very neat
15:06<andythenorth>BB is the total opposite
15:06<andythenorth>both are good
15:06<andythenorth>also I’ve messed with FIRS, breaking the neat flow of metal / oil -> supplies
15:06<andythenorth>which is better imho
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15:12<dreck>hi ngc :)
15:15<NGC3982>Hi :-)
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16:17<dreck>quick question: I'm rechecking wiki to see what I did not remember but anyway...if you rcon-change a game setting does it take effect immediately or only in next game?
16:19<frosch123>depends whether you use the setting or settingnewgame command
16:19<dreck>ah, will look that up. thanks
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16:38<dreck>frosch sorry to ask but I think maybe I'm misunderstanding something .. how does one actually use ]rcon <pwd> "content state"?
16:39<frosch123>check the help page
16:39<frosch123>help content state
16:39<frosch123>i don't know the commands by heart :p
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16:40<dreck>:p
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16:58<dreck>guess I'll poke around more with the console later on tonight...thanks anyway :)
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17:24<dreck>going off for a bit now anyway
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>is that just my impression or was that a really unconstructive discussion?
17:29<andythenorth>he :)
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18:28<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 22 00:00:38 2015