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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-22

---Logopened Thu Jan 22 00:00:38 2015
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04:38<andythenorth>o/
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04:53<andythenorth>where is cat?
04:56<V453000> watup
04:56<V453000>cat is under the tracks
04:57<andythenorth>yair V453000
04:57<argoneus>good morning train friends
04:57<andythenorth>so example of stupid FIRS thing because…reasons
04:57<andythenorth>Iron Works makes metal
04:57<andythenorth>but only 4t per 8t input, even when fully supplied
04:57<andythenorth>Steel Mill is 8t per 8t input if fully supplied
04:58<andythenorth>“because players should do extra work"
04:58<andythenorth>eh, what?
04:58<andythenorth>bad thinking by andythenorth
04:59<V453000>iron works is the early 1800s or something industry?
04:59<andythenorth>yeah
04:59<V453000>personally I dont like the changing industries over game date at all
04:59<andythenorth>no
04:59<andythenorth>you iz correct
04:59<V453000>one expires one becomes available :/
04:59<V453000>mezz
05:00<andythenorth>Iron Works is only one that does it
05:00<andythenorth>fucking up the production was retrospective justification for adding it
05:00<V453000>XD
05:00<andythenorth>there are lots that have intro dates, these are annoying too
05:00<andythenorth>broken chains before xyz
05:00<andythenorth>hard to balance
05:00<V453000>yes, especially the biorefinery
05:00<andythenorth>boring
05:01<V453000>recyclables is nice though
05:01<V453000>some spicing up for late game, that I like
05:01<andythenorth>reyclables is the joker in the pack
05:01<andythenorth>recyclables *
05:01<V453000>because it is quite independent of anything
05:01<andythenorth>example of not sticking to a rigid system, because that’s too boring
05:01<andythenorth>always need something different
05:01<V453000>recyclables are nice
05:01<andythenorth>but Iron Works isn’t
05:01<V453000>quite :P
05:02<andythenorth>nor is delaying some industries until 1900s, and the game rarely builds them
05:02<V453000>also fish should be done something about
05:02<V453000>fun cargo but no growth = boring
05:02<andythenorth>solve iron works first, we talk fish after
05:02<andythenorth>iron works, delete?
05:02<V453000>:)
05:02<V453000>replace with steel mill, easy :P
05:02<andythenorth>already is steel mill in game
05:02<V453000>exactly
05:02<andythenorth>downside of deleting, sad players, sad danmack
05:03<V453000>xd
05:03<andythenorth>upside of deleting: not much, it’s only in Full FIRS, and Full FIRS is out of control anyway
05:03<V453000>players are idiots, danmack needs to step up to 3D :P
05:03<andythenorth>noooo
05:03<andythenorth>he’s the best pixelator
05:03<andythenorth>so just make production not-fucked-up?
05:03<V453000>I guess
05:05<andythenorth>needs a third cargo
05:05<andythenorth>otherwise people will do excel spreadsheets showing why the logical choice is to use iron works not steel mill
05:05<andythenorth>as more output per input
05:05<V453000>XD
05:05<andythenorth>hmm they use sand for casting
05:06<andythenorth>and stone for smelting
05:06<andythenorth>and scrap metal
05:06<V453000>well, you do have two different industries producing the same thing, does it matter which one people use?
05:07<andythenorth>not if I make them roughly equivalent
05:07<andythenorth>let’s look at cargo flow chart
05:07<andythenorth>in my head
05:07<V453000>xd
05:07*V453000 demands image chart
05:08<andythenorth>inside of my head? you don’t want pictures of what’s in there
05:09<V453000>point taken
05:10<andythenorth>sand
05:10<andythenorth>because you can see the animation of the iron being cast
05:10<V453000>.
05:10<andythenorth>and it’s arbitrary choice, no real gameplay impact either way
05:10<V453000>cargo because animation
05:10<V453000>sense :P
05:10<andythenorth>sense left this industry a long time ago
05:10<V453000>I think sand is good actually
05:10<andythenorth>scrap metal already makes metal in two places
05:10<V453000>sand cant make any supplies otherwise right
05:10<andythenorth>no
05:11<andythenorth>well, I fucked up the chains by adding two kinds of port
05:11<V453000>off with it to the foundry then :D
05:11<andythenorth>so now sand can make supplies via goods
05:11<V453000>yes thats fun
05:11<andythenorth>err…building materials
05:11<andythenorth>not goods
05:11<V453000>sure
05:11<andythenorth>anyway
05:11<andythenorth>so fish?
05:11<V453000>fish should wreck all shit
05:11<V453000>nah just make the production have any chance of increasing
05:12<V453000>let it accept FMSP, let it increase randomly by itself, anything :)
05:12<andythenorth>then I have to build more boats
05:12<andythenorth>building fishing boats is serious yak-hsaving
05:12<andythenorth>need a fishing AI
05:12<V453000>._.
05:12<V453000>you can build trains :P
05:12<V453000>esp if you make FIRS set max distance from shore for marine industries to something like 10
05:12<andythenorth>fish is the cargo I do in early game for stable income with no network jams or need to babysit
05:12<V453000>slight walking etc, great stuff
05:13<V453000>boaring
05:13<andythenorth>you want a fish farm on land?
05:13<V453000>NO :D
05:13<V453000>fish farm in the sea is great
05:13<andythenorth>random increase, standard ttd mechanic?
05:13<V453000>but never used due tlow production
05:13<V453000>standard ttd mechanic wouldnt hurt
05:13<V453000>means you could grow them up to 2k but would take a long time
05:13<andythenorth>eh
05:13<andythenorth>so good service means more fish
05:13<V453000>would actually be really nice
05:13<andythenorth>that’s anti-realisms :)
05:13<V453000>yay
05:14<V453000>but good mechanics
05:14<andythenorth>realisms, more fishing, less fish
05:14<andythenorth>ho
05:14<andythenorth>quotas :P
05:14<andythenorth>supply exact right amount of transport, get more fish :P
05:14<V453000>XD
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05:14<andythenorth>not coding that
05:14<V453000>I would just let it have the original industry mechanism, that would be great
05:14<andythenorth>what, totally random?
05:15<andythenorth>or paying attention to transport rating?
05:15<V453000>the one with attention ot station ratings I suppose
05:15<V453000>XD broken as fuck with your 100% station rating hax
05:15<V453000>but k
05:15<andythenorth>I don’t use that hax
05:15<V453000>still better than current stuff
05:15<V453000>me neither :)
05:15<andythenorth>the 100% was filed under ‘players want options'
05:15<andythenorth>:P
05:16<V453000>players dont want to build 2 trains per industry
05:16<V453000>good players.
05:17<andythenorth>the ‘improved ratings’ are for when I play with NARS 2, and have 30 tile long trains on single-track rail with passing looooops
05:17<andythenorth>now I am building 5 tile high speed freight trains on fully signalled double track
05:17<andythenorth>must have been in too many coop games :(
05:17<andythenorth>sad
05:18<andythenorth>next game I’ll probably build overflow depots :(
05:18<V453000>: D
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07:58<andythenorth>oh
07:58*andythenorth finds some things wrong in FIRS
07:58<andythenorth>oops
07:59<V453000>XD
07:59<V453000>am almost done with all tracks meanwhile :)
07:59<V453000>roads to go
07:59*andythenorth has no idea how industry production works
07:59<andythenorth>but possibly lots of secondaries are doing it wrong currently
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08:00<deniz1a>hello
08:00<deniz1a>what do you do with your money in the game after a while? fund primary industries?
08:00<andythenorth>fortunately whoever wrote this left extended code comments
08:00<andythenorth>deniz1a: yes
08:00<andythenorth>that’s one of the better options
08:00<deniz1a>but they cost around 30 million. is it worth it?
08:01<andythenorth>‘worth it’ is subjective :)
08:01<andythenorth>you have more money than you need?
08:01<V453000>you have shitload of money, worth is indeed a bad word :P
08:01<deniz1a>do you get that much money from them?
08:01<V453000>just stop caring about money :) you have billions after a few decades anyway
08:02<V453000>build a nice, big network
08:02<V453000>the more trains you can get the better :)
08:02<deniz1a>yeah maybe it's more important in multiplayer
08:02<deniz1a>oh and about that
08:02<deniz1a>once darwin jumbo jets are available, what's the point of constructing anything else?
08:02<deniz1a>they bring 100 thousand dollars in one flight
08:03<V453000>exactly, quit regarding money
08:03<V453000>trains are interesting and fun :)
08:03<V453000>you can adjust any costs anyway, with newGRFs for example
08:03<deniz1a>yeah, i just learned how to use signals. it's so much fun
08:03<V453000>money will always be just a number
08:03<V453000>see
08:04<V453000>see openttdcoop.org how to build a big network, you might enjoy that if you want to really learn the game and play long while still interesting games
08:04<deniz1a>but still, it's the main point of the game, to make profits, isn't it?
08:04<deniz1a>ok i'll look at it
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08:04<V453000>not exactly
08:04<V453000>it is seemingly the point for beginners, but after a short while you discover that making money is very primitive
08:05<deniz1a>for example, i build rail networks to carry iron to steel mill then take that steel to a factory and also get grain and livestock to that factory
08:05<V453000>the game is one big sandbox, really :) you just do have to move things around :)
08:05<deniz1a>and all that brings very little compared to carrying passengers
08:05<andythenorth>if you’ve figured out winning at money, try a gamescript (GS)
08:06<V453000>sure, that points to various things
08:06<V453000>either you have newGRFs which just do not "balance" each other by costs
08:06<andythenorth>it gets boring fast once you know how to make money
08:06<deniz1a>gamescript? do you mean scenarios or newgrf?
08:06<V453000>or you simply have some settings which let planes get extreme profits, also constructing planes is easy
08:06<V453000>gamescript is a gamescript :)
08:07<andythenorth>Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal are two good ones
08:07<andythenorth>available from in-game content
08:07<deniz1a>oh ok i saw gamescripts in the online contents
08:07<andythenorth>there are also some about growing cities
08:07<deniz1a>ok
08:07<andythenorth>Busy Bee is a new one, in development, but there is no win condition
08:07<V453000>YETI is better at growing cities already :P
08:08<deniz1a>yeti has awesome graphics
08:08<V453000>thanks :)
08:08<deniz1a>but i think generally passenger transport fees should be reduced
08:08<V453000>there are newgrfs which do that :)
08:08<deniz1a>oh you did yeti? great work heh
08:08<V453000>but it is all very changeble
08:09<V453000>yes
08:09<V453000>e.g. you can have city size multiplier at 10 and make passengers outright profittable
08:09<V453000>or you can have very small towns and slow growth rate, multiplier 1 and you dont get as many
08:09<V453000>you cant really create a cost which would be "balanced"
08:10<deniz1a>oh ok. yes city growth would control passenger profits
08:10<V453000>many things do :) even date when you start, later date, faster vehicles, passengers are very unhappy when they travel with slow trains
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08:17<dreck>just wanted to check quickly as I'm not sure how to structure it at all.. how would you do something like this properly? rcon mypwd settingnewgame "disasters false"
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08:26<Eddi|zuHause>the "" are wrong
08:29<V453000>the "" are always wrong :D
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08:55<@peter1138>rcon password "command parameters"
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10:44<dreck>hmm weird .. rcon thinks disaster is on but the advanced setting says its off .. and same for several other settings
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11:13<dreck>meh I think I'll see if I can wait for ngc instead
11:13<dreck>console seem to be conflicting with what the advanced setting window shows
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>... with some people you really wonder how they could ever be functioning part of the society...
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11:36<TELK>Hello, may I have a question of some web-programming problem?
11:36<TELK>about finger.openttd.org?
11:36<@planetmaker>don't ask to ask, just ask
11:37<TELK>I can't get the contents of finger.openttd.org by using cURL in PHP
11:38<@planetmaker>you want finger.o.o or finger.o.o/versions.txt ?
11:38<@planetmaker>however, both are available by simple query
11:38<@Alberth>hi hi pm, thanks for making bb nightly-aware :)
11:39<TELK>mostly versions.txt, but I usually get some other pages, too.
11:39<@planetmaker>oh, my pleasure, alberth :)
11:40<@planetmaker>curl http://finger.openttd.org/versions.txt works like a charm for me. Thus must be some php oddity
11:40<TELK>It is very strange because some server allows to get versions.txt, but others are not.
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i might be going out of a limb here, and say the problem is php :p
11:44<TELK>For example, http://telk.kr/php/t.php this doesn't work, and http://telk.url.ph/t.php this works. two files have the same source. Very strange.
11:45<TELK>and sorry for Eddi ;)
11:52<@planetmaker>php version, other server-specirfic config...
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11:54<TELK>The thing is only finger.o.o doesn't work for telk.kr, other sites(eg. google) are works very well.
11:55<TELK>even a line $fp = fsockopen('finger.openttd.org', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); doesn't work, too. But $fp = fsockopen('google.com', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); works.
11:57<@Alberth>you may want to try a php-oriented channel?
11:58<TELK>If you think I shall, then I will.
12:00<@Alberth>I don't know, but this is #openttd, which is not really aimed at solving web access problems, afaik :)
12:01<TELK>I was wondering it only have problem when I fetch finger.opentttd.org... sorry for inconvenience :)
12:01<@Alberth>np
12:01<@Alberth>just because you have a problem with a site of ours doesn't imply our site is wrong
12:02<TELK>ok, i'll check further.
12:02<@Alberth>maybe you're doing something wrong, and eg google has added a work-around so it appears to work
12:02<TELK>I'm doubting it comes from IPv6...
12:04<@Alberth>so, what's 80 ?
12:04<@Alberth>isn't that http?
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12:05<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's soemthing to do with mirrors?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>but i have not enough knowledge about the server setup to even begin to diagnose that
12:08<@planetmaker>web isn't mirrored, only bananas + binaries
12:08<@planetmaker>hm, and he possibly shouldn't leave that quickly :D
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12:12<@Alberth>obviously, the entire Internet speaks http :p
12:13<@Alberth>oh, lol, == in php does implicit string -> numerical conversion :)
12:13<@Alberth>"a" == 0 is true
12:14<andythenorth>Alberth: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
12:14*Eddi|zuHause adds that to "list of things i never wanted to know about php"
12:15<andythenorth>that blog post ^ is worth skimming
12:15<andythenorth>mostly because it’s *so* long
12:15<andythenorth>and he finds *so* many well-reasoned criticisms
12:15<@Alberth>I have read that
12:15<andythenorth>based on what looks like actually a lot of experience using it
12:15<andythenorth>I have no experience of PHP :)
12:15<@Alberth>keep it that way :)
12:15<andythenorth>so many developers assert ‘x sucks’ with no real insight or reasoning
12:16<andythenorth>it was nice to see a total demolition job
12:16<@Alberth>:)
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12:38<deniz1a>hello. i can't connect to multiplayer server
12:40<deniz1a>:/
12:43<deniz1a>oh sorry, i didnt choose advertised yes
12:43<deniz1a>:/
12:43<deniz1a>so
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>glad to have been of help.
12:43<deniz1a>let's say a player has built a big network of transport in a city
12:44<deniz1a>and you have no stations or anything there
12:45<deniz1a>can you buy an exclusive transport right just to prevent him from earning money?
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27124 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt (2015-01-22 17:45:22 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 18 changes by 2rB
12:47<deniz1a>Eddi|zuHause: what do you say?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, the game certainly allows that
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>whether that's unsportsmanlike behaviour is up to the server rules
12:48<deniz1a>so you can disable exclusive rights in server settings?
12:49<deniz1a>there werent any options at server creation
12:50<deniz1a>or do you have to use newgrf?
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12:52<deniz1a>and you can prevent road vehicles with a train crossover. do people do that all the time?
12:53<deniz1a>how do you prevent that?
12:54<deniz1a>there is nothing you can do against that, right?
12:54<deniz1a>the only course of action open in that case is retaliation
12:54<deniz1a>so you block his vehicles with trains
12:55<deniz1a>people wouldnt use any road vehicles in competitive games then or it's a blocking game
12:56<deniz1a>you can't block trains, right?
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you should play on a moderated server
12:56<deniz1a>what's a moderated server?
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>there is no technical solution to people being dicks. a moderator will chime in and throw these people out and undo their damage
12:57<deniz1a>but why? it's part of the game
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>sure, if you want to play the game alone...
12:57<deniz1a>then there should be server settings to disable these things
12:58<deniz1a>or ok listen to this
12:58<deniz1a>a player has a train track, minding his own business, trying to make honest money
12:58<deniz1a>and you go and crossover his train track with a road
12:59<deniz1a>hmm ok this doesnt work
12:59<deniz1a>nevermind
12:59<deniz1a>you cant make it appear like he's blocking you
13:00<deniz1a>you can block ships too, although it would be expensive
13:00<deniz1a>you could raise land around the dock so ships cant reach it
13:01<deniz1a>or no
13:01<deniz1a>you build shipyards around his dock, blocking his ships
13:02<deniz1a>there are zeppelin crashes as disasters
13:02<deniz1a>can you deliberately crash your plane in his airport to block it?
13:02<deniz1a>no that doesnt work
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13:03<@Alberth>there are many ways to harass other players
13:03<deniz1a>oh and there are ufos as disasters too. who thought about that heh
13:03<@Alberth>you need a human to decide whether it is allowed
13:03<deniz1a>yeah but there arent any settings to disable them, so they're part of the game
13:03<deniz1a>and it could be fun
13:04<@Alberth>there is no way to detect all things, that's why there is no setting
13:04<deniz1a>ok
13:04<@Alberth>unless you count, you cannot build anything
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>there was a server a few years ago that had the rule "be a dick to each other as much as you can"
13:04<@Alberth>that would work
13:04<deniz1a>you can start ad campaigns to increase your ratings. can you also start negative ad campaigns to lower others' ratings?
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>no
13:05<deniz1a>Eddi|zuHause: that server sounds fun
13:05<@Alberth>I wouldn't know
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>but crashing their vehicles reduces the ratings to 0
13:05<deniz1a>you mean with trains?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes. airplane crashes as well, but you probably cannot cause those
13:06<deniz1a>it could be fun to make such things as game feature
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, it might be fun for you, but you'd quickly be alone
13:08<deniz1a>i think there would be other people who would want to play like that
13:09<deniz1a>well ok i just wanted to share these ideas i had
13:09<deniz1a>or how about this:
13:10<deniz1a>an agressive AI that blocks you and buys exclusive rights in towns you have networks
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>that exists
13:10<deniz1a>which one?
13:10<andythenorth>it’s a pretty quick end game
13:10<andythenorth>you all have no money quite fast
13:10<deniz1a>admiral AI is the best one right? it doesnt do such things
13:10<andythenorth>if you play aggressively
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i think the rondje AI did something like that
13:10<deniz1a>ok
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, exclusive rights is a bad way to do this, because the other person can immediately buy them back
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>this goes back and forth until one person runs out of money
13:12<deniz1a>oh you can do that? ok i didnt know that
13:12-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01012e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:12<deniz1a>but if you're financially better you could still do that
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>sure, if the game were about having the most money...
13:19<frosch123>money is good, you can exchange it for coffee and chocolate
13:20<frosch123>though not sure why the other guys actually take it
13:21<frosch123>maybe there is noone who does both coffee and chocolate
13:21<deniz1a>i like money
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>but in today's economy the way you make money is to spend money that you don't have yet
13:21<deniz1a>you can get goods and services in exchange!
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's called short-selling
13:22<deniz1a>how do you see chat history in multiplayer game?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>in the console
13:22<deniz1a>ok thanks
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13:51<andythenorth>how about FAD for FIRS 2.0?
13:52<andythenorth>FIRS Ain’t Dead
13:55<@Alberth>it's almost FUD :p
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13:56<Wolf01>hi o/
13:56<@Alberth>moin W
13:57<@Alberth>new release of firs would probably be welcomed, imho
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS Isn't Renamed, Stupid
14:01<andythenorth>ha ha
14:01<andythenorth>that is awesome
14:02<@Alberth>s/Renamed/Released/
14:03<andythenorth>FIRS 1.4.0 is a bit delayed
14:03<andythenorth>it’s waited 13 months
14:03<andythenorth>I want to make a few savegame breaking changes
14:03<andythenorth>and let translators catch up maybe?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>no. release it, and then make the breaking changes
14:04<andythenorth>that is a nice idea yes
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>if you always wait for the next changes before release, you never release anything
14:04<V453000>^
14:05<andythenorth>I dunno, I think there’s no especial rush
14:05<andythenorth>I already broke savegames, rather not do it twice in succession
14:05<V453000>THERE IS ALWAYS RUSH :P
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem, just say that the release isn't compatible with previous releases
14:05<andythenorth>are you all so keen to play it?
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14:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the release isn’t compatible with previous releases, already
14:06<V453000>I dont play at all anymore :0
14:06<andythenorth>immediately releasing a 1.5.0 and breaking all savegames again seems a bit…hasty
14:06<V453000>the old savegames can keep old firs
14:06<V453000>new savegames will use new
14:07<V453000>simple and easy
14:07<andythenorth>compared to, e.g. finishing the changes I am mid-way through, and then maybe actually playtesting it
14:07<andythenorth>releasing a broken economy seems daft tbh
14:07<V453000>for server games, they dont want to reload the save just cause of updating a newgrf anyway, they can wait the few days
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but if you constantly break savegame compatibility, a current stable release is better than an old stable release and a bunch of incompatible nightlies where nobody is sure which one to get and where to get it from
14:07<andythenorth>well
14:07<andythenorth>it’s on an annual release cycle
14:07<Supercheese>Iron works now takes sand, eh?
14:08<andythenorth>apparently
14:08<V453000>annual XD how good
14:08<andythenorth>FIRS is too painful to work on more than about 2 weeks of the year
14:08<andythenorth>really
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14:08<V453000>NUTS has version 79 after almost 3 years :P
14:08<V453000>xd
14:08<V453000>hm
14:08<andythenorth>79.0.0? :o
14:09<V453000>0.7.9 :)
14:09<andythenorth>ha ha
14:09<V453000>but it just means there were 78 precedessors
14:09<andythenorth>I didn’t look at FIRS, but it’s less releases than that
14:09<@Alberth>live on the edge, make the next one 0.7.10 :p
14:09<V453000>no, want to get to 1.0.0 :P
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>you make 1.0.0 when it's ready, not when you had 100 releases
14:10<V453000>originally I thought I never will, but now lets hope 9.9.9 is unreal :P
14:10<V453000>exactly Eddi, I dont :)
14:10<V453000>I like this numbering, period :P
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD went from 0.7 to 1.0
14:11<V453000>I could also give it names without numbers? :D
14:11<V453000>NUTS Bridgette
14:11*andythenorth should add the strings so translators can catch up
14:11<V453000>NUTS Antoinette
14:11<V453000>NUTS Claire
14:11<V453000>ALSO, perhaps it will reach full 32bpp conversion with 1.0.0 :P
14:12<@Alberth>with a bit of careful planning.... :)
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>CETS Bertha, CETS Dora, ...
14:13<V453000>no need to be careful, can postpone shit or release everything at the last moment XD
14:13<@Alberth>0.9.9 0.9.9.9 0.9.9.9.9 1.0.0!
14:14<V453000>no, just 0.9.9 Changelog: Added SECOND 32bpp engine!, 1.0.0 changelog: Added the remaining 150 32bpp engines!
14:14<@Alberth>haha :)
14:16<Supercheese>UKRS addon set does (did) that with versions
14:17<V453000>XD
14:17<Supercheese>version Gobi
14:17<Supercheese>version Eggnog
14:17<Supercheese>http://pikka.users.tt-forums.net/wiki/index.php?title=UK_Railway_Add-on_Set
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14:18<V453000>:)
14:19<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/NUTS/changelog.txt
14:22<@Alberth>oh dear, I am so much behind, it's nuts!
14:22<V453000>:) it is actually quite fun for me to read the changelog from the start XD
14:23<@Alberth>I can imagine, bringing back memories :)
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not actually sure i understood what eggnog is. it sounds like Eierlikör, just without alcohol, so they can spike it with alcohol.
14:23<@Alberth>I had the same experience reading all my freerct blog entries that I made
14:24<V453000>:)
14:24<V453000>0.1.2 Completely re-ordered the code of the whole newGRF so it can compile now without running out of action2 IDs. Added Cola, Beer and Plastic tankers for toyland - now with colours! Added cargo-specific Railflatbed3 Sweets.
14:24<V453000>this was seriously fucked up :D
14:24<frosch123>does freerct meanwhile use yeti graphics for customers?
14:24<Supercheese>I barely ever encounter eggnog with alcohol
14:25<Supercheese>although that's probably highly region-dependent even within the states
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>this is clearly a thing that does not exist at all in germany
14:25<Supercheese>yeah, likely an American thing
14:26<@Alberth>it doesn't frosch123, I suspect they don't want to come, given there are only a few shops available
14:26<frosch123>Supercheese: wiki lists luxembourg :o
14:26<Supercheese>it does?
14:27<Supercheese>I'm not immediately seeing that
14:27<frosch123>Alberth: maybe they are more keen on work :)
14:27<Supercheese>I see Englang, then Canada & US
14:27<Supercheese>England*
14:27<frosch123>i was reading the german version
14:27<Supercheese>ah
14:27<frosch123>maybe only germans think that luxembourgians drink that :p
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14:31<@Alberth>hmm, is "job satisfaction" really "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" in German, Dutch uses "Arbeidsvreugde" and I would expect that German also has a single word for it
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>you are not supposed to be happy at the job. :p
14:33<@Alberth>currently, I am quite not happy at my job :(
14:33<frosch123>Alberth: "Arbeitsfreude" is casual/slightly oldish. "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" is modern bureaucracy-german
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i've ever heard "Arbeitsfreude"
14:35<@Alberth>Arbeidsvreugde is also quite old-ish
14:35<frosch123>actually, Arbeitsfreude is also less specific. you also have "Arbeitsfreude" if you do crafting/gardening on every weekend
14:36<frosch123>while the other one refers specific to work only
14:36<@Alberth>as in paid work :)
14:37<@Alberth>Don't know of a word to express joy of work in your free time, in Dutch
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>"arbeit" is derived from protogermanic "urbo" which means "slave". it's also the root of the russian word "robota"
14:38<frosch123>there are actually two "Arbeitsfreude" and "Arbeitswut"
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>"Arbeitswut" is more like "workaholic
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>"
14:38<frosch123>yes, but it also works for work at home
14:38<frosch123>like you start doing things, and only notice 10 hours later that you are still doing stuff
14:39<@Alberth>hmm, I played CIV like that the first time :p
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>i played CIV like that the next 300 times as well :p
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>but i would use "-wut" in a context where people do nonsensical stuff out of the inner pressure to do *anything*
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>like throw out everything in the assumption that it is trash, without thinking about whether it may still be useful
14:43<frosch123>it does not need to be non-sense, it's enough that the person does not notice doing stuff
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, being non-sense is usually the point where other people notice it :)
14:47<andythenorth>what sense does sunshare make? In the FIRS thread
14:47<andythenorth>I have literally no idea
14:48<andythenorth>there’s non-English-native, and then there’s simply non-English
14:48*Supercheese agrees
14:48<andythenorth>the only thing I can understand is ‘he/she wants something'
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14:48*andythenorth goes back to styling tables
14:49<@Alberth>sunshare doesn't make a lot of sense in many threads :)
14:49<Supercheese>Yeah, I had the same experience in fake subways
14:49<Supercheese>"explain everything please" "errr, ok..."
14:50<Supercheese>Poor ReadMes, they never get read
14:50<@Alberth>he uses a translator probably
14:51<andythenorth>off-topic, so glad I learnt at least rudiments of shell scripts
14:51<@Alberth>off-topic? after a discussion on job satisfaction?
14:51<+glx>oh you stopped recreating wheel every time ?
14:52<andythenorth>I stopped typing long commands :P
14:52<Supercheese>The topic is a lie, much like the cake
14:52<andythenorth>most of my scripts are just ‘rm foo && mv src/foo foo’ or whatever
14:53<@Alberth>I call all of them "mk", so it's easy to find in a directory
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14:55<Eddi|zuHause>just call them Makefile?
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14:55<andythenorth>call them sudo
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why, but every day around 19:00 to 22:00, youtoube is too slow for 720p
14:56<andythenorth>you mean the busy part of the day? o_O
14:56<frosch123>was the same for me from sun to tue, was fixed yesterday
14:57<frosch123>though it was actually too slow for 360p :)
14:58<frosch123>so maybe they switched servers
14:58<frosch123>gave frankfurt a new one, and gave leipzig the old broken one
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, network topology is weird anyway. german telekom ever worked so hard not to be connected to DE-CIX
15:00<+glx>or peering issue, or ISP doing silly things
15:01<andythenorth>ISP traffic shaping
15:01<andythenorth>19:00 - 22:00 is when everybody goes home and watches
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's probably a play to convince people why net neutrality is a "bad" thing (in the eyes of the ISPs)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>glx: well, peering is the entire problem. because telekom has like 90% of the customers, they say: hold on, when you want to peer, you have to pay us.
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>and additionally to that, you can't peer at a place where everybody else peers, like DE-CIX
15:06<+glx>yeah I know same here
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15:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: does "Food processing plant" accept food or produce it? there doesn't seem to be other strings
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15:51<andythenorth>Produce
15:51<@Alberth>k
15:51<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#food_processor
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15:53<Eddi|zuHause>compound words are difficult. you never know whether they describe what it is, what goes into it, or who made it, or... :p
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>"Kinderdöner"
15:54<andythenorth>it’s 100% identical in principle to the one in default tropic
15:54<andythenorth>only input cargos vary
15:54<andythenorth>a sensible newgrf author would use the existing TTD strings
15:55<@Alberth>"Food processing" suggests to me it accepts food, no idea whatwould come out of the factory in that case
15:55<andythenorth>what’s it called in TTD? o_O
15:55*andythenorth would look but is writing edit-in-place in html :P
15:56<andythenorth>slightly work
15:56<@Alberth>STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT :Food Processing Plant <-- same
15:57<@Alberth>but I never had to translate that :)
15:57<frosch123>hmm, "Food Processing Plant" vs. "Food Processing Animal"?
15:58<@Alberth>in V his definition those are quite exchangable
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>i never quite understood the usage of that word, ever since i saw "power plant" in sim city for the first time
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>it also didn't match our english lessons in school, where it was "power station" or somesuch
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16:06<dreck>hi
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16:09<andythenorth>Alberth: I’ll swap it to use TTD string
16:09<andythenorth>sorry if you already translated it :)
16:09<@Alberth>:)
16:10<@Alberth>STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT :Voedselfabriek <-- it'll be the same translation :p
16:10<andythenorth>I need to fix my makefile :(
16:11<andythenorth>so it’s not stupid
16:11<dreck>heh
16:11<dreck>reminds me of "computers only as smart as we make them" quote
16:13<frosch123>"i am not worried about computers becoming smarter than humans, i am rather worried that they agree to meet in the middle" <- saw that today
16:14<dreck>heh not sure I have heard that one but makes sense
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16:52<deniz1a>hello, when transporting cargo, do you get more money if you transport to a more distant industry?
16:54<frosch123>indirectly
16:54<frosch123>you get money for vehicles running
16:54<frosch123>you do not get money for vehicles loading
16:54<deniz1a>so you get more money if you just loop the train around before delivering?
16:54<frosch123>having longer distances lowers the time percentage for loading
16:55<frosch123>no, the travel distance does not matter
16:55<frosch123>it's the distance between source and destination station
16:55<deniz1a>oh ok so when it comes back to load again it will already be ready to be transported
16:55<frosch123>if you do a detour, it's your loss :)
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16:56<frosch123>basically you get money for transporting cargo fast
16:56<frosch123>on longer distances you can reach a higher average speed
16:56<deniz1a>ok
16:56<naliao>just do
16:56<naliao>nothing but mail
16:56<frosch123>on direct routes you are also faster
16:56<deniz1a>and i was always looking for industries that are close to each other so i can transport quickly...
16:57<naliao>thats what i do
16:57<frosch123>for nearby industries the same holds
16:57<naliao>is that the wrong thing to do?
16:57<frosch123>you need to make the loading time shorter
16:57<frosch123>so on shorter routes you need vehicles with less capacity
16:57<naliao>farm > plant > town done right
16:57<frosch123>for very low capacities trains become inviable, because the engine is too expensive
16:57<deniz1a>ok thanks
16:58<deniz1a>ok so trains should be sent far away so there is time for the source to produce again
16:58<frosch123>usually you give cargo transport a "full load" order at the source
16:59<frosch123>then you need to adjust the vehicle capacity (i.e. train length) so that loading time is not a significant part of the total travel time
16:59<deniz1a>yes i do that but because i send them to a close destination when they come back empty they wait to reload
17:00<deniz1a>ok thanks i'll go back to the game
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>you want to have the empty train arriving when another train is just ready to leave
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>because during the time where no train is waiting, your rating drops, so you get less cargo
17:03<dreck>heh I always never understood why other people build massive 6-platform long stations when just 1-2 medium length ones would do for the exact same industry output
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>so if your train takes 40 days to make a trip (and 40 days back), and you want it to load in 20 days, then you need 5 trains on the line. if the industry produces 180 per month, then you need around 120 capacity per train
17:04<smoke_fumus>dreck: sometimes it's about syncing. and transfer. but if that's dead-end station for a coal mine....yeeaaaaa, we have a problem
17:05<dreck>yep ^
17:05<dreck>houston we have a problem! << hehehe
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>you can make the loading time shorter if you use more, shorter trains, but it may turn unprofitable, because only the engines create costs
17:05<smoke_fumus>Eddi|zuHause: hence why you need to use trucks for coal
17:05<dreck>or use the small locomotive :)
17:05<smoke_fumus>or at least sync up 2-4 coal mines with one train and pull coal from all of them to single electricstation
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is all possible
17:06<smoke_fumus>that usually nets at least few thousand per year
17:08<@planetmaker>hi hi
17:08<dreck>hi planetmaker
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>smoke_fumus: coal mines often have an output of 300 or more per month, and then even short distances are really really profitable by train
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>or you play FIRS with the 100% rating setting, then everything goes crazy
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17:30<dreck>well since ngc is likely still on business I'm going for now
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17:46<deniz1a>does production of primary industries increase with time?
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17:47<FLHerne>deniz1a: Yes, if well-served
17:48<FLHerne>deniz1a: Will increase on average if service is Good, decrease if Poor
17:48<deniz1a>you mean transported?
17:48<deniz1a>oh ok
17:48<FLHerne>https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Smooth_Economy_Rules
17:49<FLHerne>Oops, I shouldn't be capitalising good and poor, it does relate to transported rather than station ratings
17:50<Supercheese>Ffffffuuuu
17:50<Supercheese>Gamescripts still can't have cases
17:50<Supercheese>I desperately need accusative case for the translation....
17:50<andythenorth>also bye
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17:54<Wolf01>'night
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't quite understand it. NewGRFs can have cases, so why shouldn't GameScripts?
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19:51<Supercheese>a good question indeed...
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 23 00:00:40 2015