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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-23

---Logopened Fri Jan 23 00:00:40 2015
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02:48<Supercheese>greeble is apparently now a verb
02:48<andythenorth>I’ve verbised a noun?
02:49*andythenorth needs a Vehicle Plant
02:49<andythenorth>V453000: should I put yours in from YETI? Looks very FIRS-style, no?
02:49<Supercheese>'Go ahead, greeble my day.'
02:53<andythenorth>unless your day is an unrelieved plane, or low number of intersecting unrelieved planes, it is already greebled ;)
02:54<Supercheese>Greeble the World™
02:55<andythenorth>Vehicle Factory. Accepts: Metal, Vehicle Parts; Produces: Goods, Engineering Supplies
02:55<andythenorth>sound good?
02:55<andythenorth>dunno if it should accept a third cargo. Not petrol
02:56<andythenorth>maybe MNSP, but tends to have overlapping sources with Vehicle Parts
02:56<Supercheese>Hmm no glass in FIRS
02:56<andythenorth>Glass is Building Materials, Goods, MNSP or Vehicle Parts
02:56<andythenorth>I considered Tyres, but they’re Vehicle Parts
02:56<andythenorth>I considered Chemicals (paint)
02:57<andythenorth>that is consistent with two other metal industries
02:57<andythenorth>but eh, consistency :P
02:57<Supercheese>if chemicals, it would have a low conversion ratio
02:58<Supercheese>also, what economy? Full FIRS?
02:58<andythenorth>Tropic Basic
02:58<andythenorth>Full FIRS is full
03:00<Supercheese>well, chemicals would otherwise only go to Ports for export, no?
03:00<Supercheese>so adding a domestic pathway would be nice
03:01<Supercheese>unless something has changed since the nightly I have grabbed
03:01<Supercheese>which is entirely possible
03:06<Supercheese>ah, indeed yet no domestic pathway for chemicals, so +1 to vehicle factory accepting them
03:33<supermop>andy should just make a second industry set
03:37<andythenorth>supermop: probably will at some point
03:38<Supercheese>FIRS is already like 5 industry sets
03:38<andythenorth>got some tweaks to FIRS, want to add some more economies, then freeze it as ‘working and finished’
03:38<andythenorth>then do a new one
03:40<supermop>really just need a way for people to cobble together the occasional new economy
03:40<andythenorth>it’s non-trivial currently
03:40<andythenorth>due to reasons
03:40<andythenorth>dunno if new set would be new, or just FIRS 2.0
03:41<andythenorth>depends if there’s any radical new concepts
03:41<supermop>the black holes and offshore industries a a good way to patch up an otherwise niche idea that someone may want for a particular circumstance
03:41<andythenorth>changing the name makes it easier to break old behaviours without upsetting people
03:41<supermop>thats the best part
03:42<andythenorth>the flip side is, I have no radical new concepts yet
03:42<andythenorth>so, eh
03:43<andythenorth>anyway gtg
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03:43<supermop>i bet pikka could have saved himself some complaints from some people if the last nars was just called "nars-inspired"
03:43<supermop>firs needs some pointless detours thrown in
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04:08<qwffffffff>can someone answer a quick question, does delivery time take into account the time when waiting for 100% load?
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06:17<@planetmaker>hi hi
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06:37<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
06:40<@planetmaker>o/ :)
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07:20<TELK>Hello, thanks for yesterday (or today maybe), Whom should I ask to if my site's IP is blocked/banned by
07:22<@peter1138>Why do you think it's blocked?
07:24<TELK>Because I was tend to fetch by PHP's curl or fsockopen but it doesn't work
07:26<@planetmaker>TELK, we don't block anyone accessing
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>so, have you tried non-php ways of accessing, and what sort of error messages do you get?
07:27<@planetmaker>run a normal curl without php for instance to check
07:27<@planetmaker>from command line
07:27<TELK>like a shell?
07:27<andythenorth>like a shell
07:27<@planetmaker>like a shell
07:27<andythenorth>like a boss
07:28<TELK>I tried but it didn't work, too.
07:28<@peter1138>What does "didn't work" mean?
07:29<TELK>It returns connection timeout.
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>and a traceroute?
07:29<andythenorth>paste the command you’re using
07:30<TELK>Sorry, now it works.... what happened :(
07:30<andythenorth>connection timeout?
07:30<andythenorth>I would guess
07:30<@planetmaker>connection timeout is also not what you get for being banned :)
07:32<TELK>thx for your help, I couldn't find what was a problem yesterday eventually...
07:32<TELK>but now it works.... what the world....
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>someone secretly lifted the ban to make you look stupid :p
07:33<V453000>wat up andythenorth
07:33<V453000>vehicle plant from yeti? too many pixels? :P
07:33<andythenorth>V453000: definitely FIRS style eh?
07:34*andythenorth considers special treatement of ground sprites in FIRS
07:34<andythenorth>so that invisible reveals yetis
07:34<V453000>idk what to imagine with FIRS style :P
07:34<andythenorth>treatment *
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07:36<TELK>Thanks for all of you, bye :)
07:37<TELK>espacially to planetmaker :D:D
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07:41<__ln__>ok, he's gone, you can re-ban now
07:45<@planetmaker>:) psst, __ln__
07:57<V453000>got a new keyboard =D time to write documentation about RAWR
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>new keyboards are terrible, no key is where it used to be :p
08:00<V453000>I have the one where everything is where it used to be . :)
08:00<V453000> :P
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not speaking about the keyboard layout, i'm speaking about keys being some miniscule distance away, so you don't hit them
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>unless you type by one-finger-search-system :p
08:05<andythenorth>that is the best way
08:05<andythenorth>fewere errors
08:06<V453000>idk I feel like keys are still the same distance apart :D
08:06<V453000>esp this one with the more traditional layouts
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>idk either, whenever i get a new keyboard, even if it's the same model as before, i need an adjustment time, until my muscle memory adapts
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09:05<andythenorth>V453000: also Iron Works can’t be built after 1901, shall I remove that restriction (for player funding only, preventing game building it)
09:11<@planetmaker>that would be nice :)
09:11<@planetmaker>or at least wouldn't hurt, I think
09:12<andythenorth>I think restricting player building has costs, with not many upsides
09:12<andythenorth>mostly imposing a not useful realism
09:13<@planetmaker>yeah. It costs nothing to not build it, if you don't like it. And the game won't force it onto you, if you play realistically. Thus +1
09:19<V453000>good move
09:20<andythenorth>I wonder if that solves broken chains where some industries have intro dates set?
09:20<andythenorth>game won’t build them, but player can always build?
09:21<V453000>yeah thats nice
09:21<andythenorth>so if you want fertiliser plant in 1492, you have to build one
09:21<V453000>what bout biorefinery? :P
09:21<V453000>ah right
09:21<V453000>that is very good
09:21<andythenorth>biorefinery too?
09:21<V453000>well sure
09:21<V453000>it is what makes farms self-reproduce
09:21<V453000>all would be best :P
09:22<andythenorth>or stupid parameter?
09:22<andythenorth>dunno how people want server play
09:22<andythenorth>I nearly said ruder word
09:22<andythenorth>I bet most parameters never get set
09:22<andythenorth>nor even looked at
09:22<V453000>they can increase the costs of industry funding if they so desire
09:22<andythenorth>they can use FIRS 1.3.0 if they so desire
09:23<V453000>XD topo
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> I bet most parameters never get set <-- if you go by that logic, NewGRFs are practically not used at all.
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>also, the universe is practically empty.
09:41<andythenorth>this is a good counter point
09:41<andythenorth>but parameters have quite a cost
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>that said, i don't think the previous discussion warrants a parameter
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09:43<@planetmaker>nice new harbours
09:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn’t mind if you could fund industries at unrealistic dates?
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually fund industries
09:47<V453000>how do I apply a static newgrf?
09:47<__ln__>"i don't usually ..., but when i do, __________________"?
09:48<V453000>andythenorth: ports are nice but they seem still very similar to me :P looks good though
09:48<andythenorth>need more slugs
09:48<@planetmaker>V453000, edit openttd.cfg
09:48<V453000>well sure but what do I put there? :)
09:48<V453000>I found newgrf-static section
09:49<V453000>I did put there newgrf\RAWR.grf and it didnt like it
09:49<@planetmaker>activate as normal newgrf, exit openttd, look at the newgrf section and move the line to newgrf-static section
09:49<@planetmaker>and do not use \ but use /
09:50<@planetmaker>and make sure it's actually a newgrf which *can* be used static ;)
09:50<V453000>yay it works \o/
09:50<V453000>rawr so fabulous
09:51<V453000>SNAILS EVERYWHERE :D bloody FIRS farms
09:55<andythenorth>also what about the realisms?
09:55<andythenorth>V453000: bloody FIRS
09:55<andythenorth>sounds good though
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10:57<deniz1a>hello, is it possible to adjust cargo ratings of the game?
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10:57<deniz1a>like you can adjust building costs with basecosts mod
10:59<deniz1a>and can you change the ingame day to an hour for example?
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11:00<Samu>I have 2 questions~
11:01<Samu>i am trying to host a 4096x4096 game but it takes 32 MBytes for someone to join
11:01<Samu>they get an error saying it took too long to download
11:01<Samu>how do I increase this time?
11:01<@planetmaker>max_join_time or so in openttd.cfg / via rcon
11:02<Samu>the other question is how do I cap my upload ratio?
11:03<Samu>say, to a max of 500 kbps
11:04<@planetmaker>ask in the channel dedicated to your OS / distribution
11:05<@planetmaker>mind, if you limit upload ratio, the download time for others will increase *even more*
11:08<Samu>autosave is taking about ~15 game days lol
11:13<@planetmaker>that's what you get for using an over-sized map
11:13<Samu>another error, processing map took too long, what does this mean?
11:16<Samu>this error was from the autosave
11:22<andythenorth>deniz1a: cargo ratings?
11:23<Samu>how do I increase the processing map took too long error?
11:23<Samu>downloaded ~16 MBytes when it happened, then the host sends that error
11:24<Samu>the client joining gets a network-connection lost
11:24<Samu>not true
11:26<@peter1138>Enable pause_on_join?
11:27<Samu>ah the console says client #3 is dropped because it took longer than 500 ticks to join. I set the download time to 32000 :(
11:27<Samu>it is on
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11:29<@peter1138>There should be no ticks when paused.
11:30<deniz1a>andythenorth: yes cargo payment rates. is it possible to adjust them?
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11:30<andythenorth>newgrfs do it
11:30<deniz1a>which one?
11:30<andythenorth>FIRS does it
11:30<andythenorth>probably others
11:30<deniz1a>firs doesnt have such an option
11:30<andythenorth>if you want to set them yourself, you’d need to write a newgrf, unless one exists already
11:31<Samu>mistery solved
11:31<Samu>had to change 2 settings
11:32<Samu>setting network.max_join_time 32000
11:32<Samu>setting network.max_download_time 32000
11:32<@peter1138>Cool. Now stop playing stupid size maps.
11:33<Samu>how long is 32000 ticks though?
11:33<@planetmaker>30 per second
11:33<andythenorth>why play a 4096x4096 map in MP :o
11:33<@planetmaker>@calc 32000/30/60
11:33<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 17.7777777778
11:33<andythenorth>we don’t have sharding
11:33<@planetmaker>so... 17 minutes :D
11:34<@planetmaker>sounds like something which one could easily DOS with a fast connection :)
11:35<@peter1138>Or even a slow connection...
11:35<Samu>gonna try disabling pause on join
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11:37<Samu>oh, the server autosaving is throwing "possible connections losts, no answering for ~14 seconds" - it is saving during that time
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11:49<Samu>gotta disable autosave
11:49<@Alberth>not sure why a server should autosave at all
11:50<@Alberth>also, did you force the program to use a single core?
11:50<Samu>no idea
11:50<Samu>where do I check that
11:50<@Alberth>in your operating system
11:50<Samu>ah, no
11:51<Samu>using all 8
11:51<skrzyp>Samu: \o/
11:51<@Alberth>ha, not possible with openttd
11:51<@Alberth>maybe it moves between cores every now and then
11:52<Samu>6% cpu usage
11:52<Samu>but affinity is set to use all cores
11:53<@Alberth>afaik it makes a copy of the map, and then saves the map in a separate thread
11:53<@Alberth>unless you don't give it room to spawn a new thread of course
11:54<Samu>18% usage during savegame
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11:56<@Alberth>that seems to work thus
11:57<Samu>cannot queue a client in front of another
11:58<Samu>throwing "possible connections losts, no answering for" up to 20 seconds and disconnects :(
11:59<Samu>client 1 is downloading, client 2 gets "possible connection lost" timer :(
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12:00<Samu>anyway to avoid that disconnection?
12:00<@peter1138>Use a smaller map.
12:01<andythenorth>play on a LAN?
12:01<Samu>i am connecting to myself
12:01<Samu>still, the data goes through the internet
12:01<@peter1138>To yourself how?
12:01<Samu>run several openttds
12:02<@peter1138>No, I mean, is it the same machine?
12:02<@peter1138>Then it's not going via the Internet.
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12:02<Samu>strange, the upload rate was deemed too slow
12:02<@peter1138>Where would it be going?
12:03<Samu>about 300 kb/s
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12:06<Samu>you're right
12:06<@planetmaker>o/ Alberth
12:07<Samu>there's something capping the upload to about 300 kb/s
12:07<@Alberth>hi hi
12:07<@planetmaker>autosave on a server makes perfect sense imho: you got saves to go back to in case of griefers or other trouble
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12:07<@Alberth>good point
12:07<@planetmaker>players get angry, if you destroy their stuff
12:07<@peter1138>Maybe not with 4096x4096 maps though :)
12:08<@planetmaker>well. I would not begin with a map that size in the first place :)
12:09<andythenorth>it is an unusual chice
12:09<andythenorth>choice *
12:09<Samu>just testing
12:10<Samu>i like to test stuff
12:10<@Alberth>you need that size, you don't want to run into other players by accident, do you?
12:11<Samu>Client #7 is dropped because the client's game state is more than 501 ticks behind.
12:11<Samu>what is this? how to fix?
12:12<Samu>that was someone named P.J.Bush, do you know him?
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12:15<Samu>is it max_lag_time?
12:15<Samu>network.max_lag_time = 500?
12:16<@Alberth>I know a G.W. Bush
12:17<Samu>setting network.max_lag_time = 32000
12:17<Samu>too bad he's not rejoining :(
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12:20<@Alberth>@calc 32000 / 74
12:20<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 432.432432432
12:21<@Alberth>you want to play catch up when behind for more than a year?
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12:23<Samu>i turned off autosave but it's still saving from time to time, is that normal?
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12:32<Samu>I got it
12:33<Samu>without pause on join, the client is playing fastforward lol
12:33<Samu>after downloading
12:33<Samu>it was behind about 2 game months
12:34<@Alberth>@calc 60 * 74
12:34<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 4440
12:34<@Alberth>still a lot more than 500
12:35<Samu>game is quite unresponsive
12:37<Samu>during fastforward that is
12:38<@Alberth>ever tried playing openttd in single player in fast forward?
12:38<@Alberth>hmm, that is probably working
12:39<@Alberth>the point is that if you are 2 months behind, and you add a track, it means you are placing track two months ago for the other players
12:39<@Alberth>since the game doesn't go back, it postpones your build operation by 2 months instead
12:40<Samu>not that kind of unresponsive, but it was almost frozen
12:41<@Alberth>sure, that's what happens, you push the cpu to the limit
12:41<Samu>12% cpu :(
12:42<@peter1138>8 core?
12:42<@Alberth>with a lot of internal network traffic
12:42<@peter1138>So 100% of 1 core.
12:43<Samu>could we see stuff animating in fast forward instead? that would be a bit more pleasant
12:43<Samu>just saying
12:43<@Alberth>in general, you should be in fast forward at all
12:45<Samu>that near-freeze right after the download while I can't do anything
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27125 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2015-01-23 17:45:19 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 3 changes by Supercheese
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12:48<Samu>how do I avoid the "possible connection lost"?
12:48<Samu>can't queue clients because of this 20-second timer
12:50<@Alberth>buy a bigger network pipe, or reduce the amount of data you need to transfer
12:53<andythenorth>ho ho
12:53<Samu>autosaving in fastforward screws things even more
12:53<andythenorth>what about that theory that banning trees from the map solves network issues? o_O
12:53<andythenorth>maybe that will help him :)
12:54<Samu>could autosave be temporarily off when fastforwarding?
12:55<Samu>for the client
13:00<Samu>nice, 25% cpu usage, during both actions
13:00<Samu>i thought i'd never see the day OpenTTD going over 20%
13:01<@Alberth>run 8 instances, and it will hit 100% :p
13:02<Samu>during fastfowarding + autosaving
13:04<Samu>autosave off is irrelevant then for a dual core system
13:04<Samu>I see
13:04<@Alberth>it saves copying the map
13:04<@Alberth>and spamming files to the disk :p
13:11<Samu>hmm, could OpenTTD upload to several clients at once?
13:12<Samu>to avoid the client queue
13:13<Samu>there is an issue with the pause on join turned on
13:14<Samu>the queueing guy was dropped after that "possible connection lost" timer, but in the server, it is in it
13:14<Samu>game is paused
13:14<Samu>and doesn't unpause
13:18<Samu>can't manually unpause either, it is saying connecting clients)
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13:33<Wolf01>hi hi
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13:37<@Alberth>quak quak
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13:38<Wolf01>bah, my coworker beat me on lego purchases... he spent about 400€ since the first of january, I spent only 230€
13:39<@Alberth>outsmart him by making nice new pieces of art?
13:39<Wolf01>that's what I do everytime :D
13:39<@Alberth>everybody can win at buying lego
13:41<@Alberth>just needs money and storage
13:41<Wolf01>now I'm out of ideas and I'm improving this one:$main$
13:42<Wolf01>I'm trying to make the front to open without doing any noticeable external change
13:43<@Alberth>would be useful for freeing the person trapped in the front glass :)
13:44<Wolf01>I'm also studying to build a modular set based on TT, but not with "real" tracks since they are really too big and every tile will be a lego baseplate
13:45<@Alberth>that will need a lot of room :)
13:46<@Alberth>depending on the size of the base plate
13:46<Wolf01>yes, that's why I want to keep the tile like 4x4 studs
13:46<@Alberth>oh, quite manageable :)
13:46<Wolf01>which is like my brickland baseset
13:47<Wolf01>(except that is made thinking of duplo, which mean the tile is 8x8 in lego studs)
13:47<@Alberth>using openttd to design a landscape for the tiles
13:48<Wolf01>mmh, dinner time
13:51<frosch123>V453000: what happened to your wasd keyboard?
13:51<frosch123>did you break it? :p
13:52<V453000>no, I bought the daskeyboard for work
13:52<V453000>wasd is just fine at home :)
13:52<V453000>but since I spend most of the day at work I couldnt stand the one there :D
13:53<frosch123>ok, i was worried they do not last V for a year
13:53<V453000>bonus is that I still have all of the custom keycaps twice, so I can replace some :P
13:53<V453000>yeah :) no worries there
13:53<V453000>I got brown switches for work though
13:53<V453000>less noize
13:55<frosch123>hmm, true, i guess keyboards noises cannot cover the phone ringing
13:56<V453000>eh our phone doesnt ring that often, but keyboard is constant :P it would be quite annoying
13:56<V453000>the browns are quite ok
13:56<V453000>and the extra media keys are super useful for me to put volume down quickly when someone wants something etc
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14:57<andythenorth>Vehicle Parts: crates or tons?
14:57<andythenorth>implies tyres, windscreens, panels, engines etc
14:57<@Alberth>crates, imho
14:57<@Alberth>give 1 tonne of windscreens :p
14:58<andythenorth>eh I still can’t login to newgrf wiki :)
14:58<andythenorth>no docs updates from me then
15:00<dreck>yeah I would say 'crates' too
15:01<dreck>tons would be more like for the iron ore used to create the engine block with etc
15:02<dreck>I'll say VHPT as its VeH ParTs?
15:03<dreck>dunno tbh :)
15:05<andythenorth>doesn’t that game over anyone who wants to make generic ‘parts'?
15:05<andythenorth>FIRS had parts once upon a time
15:06<andythenorth>eh, they won’t know the label exists anyway :)
15:06<V453000>use GEAR
15:08<dreck>actually Railroad Tycoon 2 as I recall had cars .. but nothing specific for 'car parts' because you only did rubber>tire>factory and coal+ore>steel>factory ..then the car factory produced automobiles that could be sold to towns or to the import/export docks
15:08<dreck>just a bit OT quibbing :)
15:09<andythenorth>I have the RT3 cargo chart here
15:09*andythenorth looks
15:09<dreck>heh I have RT2+expansion .. still keep trying to find someone with the other special version I would love to trade for :->
15:09<andythenorth>tyres -> auto plant
15:09<dreck>and also the disks for RT too .. never used it for a long time tho
15:09<andythenorth>cars -> town
15:10<V453000>everybody knows vehicles come out of balls of steel, petrol and batteries
15:10<dreck>yeah I think RT2 and RT3 shared a lot of similar industry system
15:10<V453000>no cars to fmsp/ensp ? :P
15:10<dreck>different vehicles and how these were purchased tho..especially something about "freight type" and "passenger type"
15:10<andythenorth>V453000: fuck no
15:10<V453000>goods cargoes are boring, just profit meh
15:10<dreck>that was why I never really went into RT3 as I didn't like the idea a lot
15:10<V453000>export them to port! :D
15:11<andythenorth>goods -> port
15:11<andythenorth>get useful stuff back
15:11<andythenorth>ports solve all ills
15:11<andythenorth>at expense of realisms, enforced chains blah blah
15:11<andythenorth>BUT IT’S NOT LOGICAL!
15:12<dreck>andy yeah the Port in RT2 could produce weird things from time to time
15:12<dreck>such as trading passengers in return for ore ..or goods>steel (and send steel back to the die factory to make more goods to send back to same port...weird loop! heh)
15:12<@Alberth>space port in dune could do that too
15:12<frosch123>how about a completely unspecific economy? cargo types are stuff, parts, things, goods, gadgets, ...
15:12<V453000>port is perfectly logical export/import economy
15:12<frosch123>may drive vehicle authors insane :p
15:12<V453000>I like it frosch123
15:12<andythenorth>frosch123: in FIRS 2.0 :)
15:13<andythenorth>me and V453000 will collaborate
15:13<andythenorth>that would be insane
15:15<@Alberth>can we have magic too?
15:15<@Alberth>I wonder if that counts as familiy-friendly....
15:16<@Alberth>Some people didn't want their children to read Harry Potter, as it contains stories about wizards and witches
15:16<frosch123>ah, yeah, "magic", "energy", "air", "pressure", "temperature", ... all good cargos :)
15:16<@Alberth>we already have "air", as bubble
15:19<V453000>I quite liked the idea of Alberth to create generic box-ish cargoes :)
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15:19<andythenorth>so what’s the magic hg command to merge without it complaining about uncommited changes?
15:19<andythenorth>nvm :P
15:19<V453000>at the asme time it doesnt exactly fit my plans though :P
15:19<andythenorth>I can’t push atomic commits with hg
15:19<andythenorth>probably using it wrong
15:20<andythenorth>user error
15:20<@Alberth>just brewing plans for whatever you do next, V :)
15:20<V453000>plans are at ? position :P
15:20<V453000>chronologically sorted
15:21<V453000>from the left to right.
15:21<@Alberth>yeah, I had BLOCKy but that obviously doesn't fit
15:21<@Alberth>BLKy ?
15:21<V453000>CUBE Ultimately Boring Economy? :D
15:21<@Alberth>+1 on CUBE
15:21<V453000>Utterly Boxxy econome? :)
15:22<@Alberth>nah, boxxy is much better
15:22<V453000>well then Eventually! :D
15:23*andythenorth might make HAXX
15:23<V453000>all of your newgrfs are haxx
15:23<V453000> /TOP LEVEL INSULT
15:23<andythenorth>some of them I didn’t get chance to do haxx yet
15:24<andythenorth>but I’m working on it
15:25<andythenorth>Vehicle Factory or Vehicle Plant?
15:25<@Alberth>Vehicle Plant as in Power Plant?
15:25<andythenorth>makes vehicles
15:26<@Alberth>factory sounds nicer to me, tbh
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15:27<@Alberth>perhaps british <-> american ?
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15:27<deniz1a>hi. is there a guide that explains how to develop newgrf extensions?
15:29<V453000>tt-wiki has some coding documentation sortoftutorials, I have written tutorials on how to create stuff in 3D postproduction, and there might be a couple pixel drawing tutorials around everywhere :)
15:29<dreck>deniz1a old tutorials here too if you want
15:29<deniz1a>ok thanks. i couldn't find that from the web site...
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15:50*andythenorth plans a big FIRS rewrite
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15:52<V453000>to newNML?
15:52<V453000>or to NFO?
15:53<andythenorth>to something that isn’t a horrible mix of python and CPP
15:54<andythenorth>half of which manages things like IDs automatically
15:54<andythenorth>and the other half manually
15:54<deniz1a>will it have 32 bit graphics?
15:55<andythenorth>absolutely not
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16:01<andythenorth>zero interest
16:01<andythenorth>2x zoom pixel art, then we’d be talking
16:01<deniz1a>why not? no graphics designers or is it a decision not to?
16:01<andythenorth>but I’m not doing the whole bloody game
16:01<andythenorth>I like pixel art
16:01<andythenorth>it would be way easier in some respects to render sprites
16:02<andythenorth>but eh no
16:02<deniz1a>yeah it looks good as long as you dont zoom. is there a way to convert pixelart to vector svg?
16:02<deniz1a>then it could be converted to png
16:02<andythenorth>it already is png
16:03<deniz1a>i mean with high resolution
16:03<V453000>3D is useful, really :) but pixel art is unmatched in x1
16:03<andythenorth>polgyons and rendering
16:03<deniz1a>what's x1?
16:04<deniz1a>but 3d doesnt have much to do with that? you can zoom with 2d graphics too
16:04<deniz1a>3d would make it easier to see behind buildings
16:05<deniz1a>you could rotate camera
16:05<frosch123>32bpp also has nothing to do with zoom-in :p
16:05<deniz1a>yeah that's right, it's just the colors
16:06<deniz1a>but 32bit graphics are also made in high resolution
16:06<V453000>basically, if you create extra zoom, it is more convenient to render things and have them in 32bpp, simply because drawing x4 32bpp is just pure insanity in terms of time consumption
16:06<V453000>on the other hand is traditional x1 zoom pixel drawing
16:06<V453000>from personal experience, once you get a 3D project set up, the newGRF set grows VERY quickly
16:07<V453000>e.g. I drew a full generation of wagons for all cargoes in the game for 3 weeks of hardcore work in pixel art, now I have it in 2 days in 3D models
16:07<deniz1a>are there programs that automatically convert bitmap to vector graphics?
16:07<deniz1a>then all the old pixelart could be made high res
16:07<V453000>I dont think they would do well and it would still lack details, it would just be higher resolution but nothing to see there
16:07<deniz1a>yeah ok
16:07<V453000>we already have zbase which does that
16:08<V453000>of course not by vector, but same result
16:08<deniz1a>and it's much better then opengfx
16:08<V453000>not really
16:08<V453000>it looks utterly horrible
16:09<V453000>there is nothing to see, textures are almost nonexistent, models are nothing new
16:09<deniz1a>but you can zoom..
16:09<V453000>yes, only more pixels, but without extra content
16:09<deniz1a>still better than blocky pixels when zoomed in
16:10<V453000>yeah but in any other zoom than x4 it looks outright awful
16:11<V453000>and since normally players spend most of the time in x1 with some occassional x2 and rather rare marveling at graphics at x4, I think the focus should remain at x1
16:11<deniz1a>yes it lacks detail compared to standard graphics but i still prefer zoom
16:11<V453000>note that I am saying this as probably the largest scale 32bpp/extra zoom graphics author at the moment
16:12<deniz1a>oh i constantly zoom in on my vehicles doing their work, earning me money
16:12<V453000>sure but how long is that going to last :) after you have seen all of them and you play the game for a longer time, you will stay in more normal zooms more often
16:13<andythenorth>the game already converts 1x graphics to 4x
16:13<V453000>extra zooms are nice and cute and all, but the x1 is still pivotal
16:13<andythenorth>that’s how it zooms
16:13<frosch123> <- deniz1a: V prefers that kind of look :p
16:13<andythenorth>opengfx is nothing to compare against
16:13<deniz1a>i sometimes click on a train and maximize its following window and watch
16:13<deniz1a>it's very relaxing
16:13<andythenorth>sometimes I have to test FIRS with OpenGFX
16:14<andythenorth>then I realise why so many players think the game looks dated and want 32bpp
16:14<V453000>yes OpenGFX isnt the best either
16:14<V453000>been saying that for years
16:14<andythenorth>it’s on the edge
16:14<andythenorth>as an achievement, it’s pretty awesome
16:14<andythenorth>but compared to original TTD sprites, no comparison
16:15<V453000>well sure zbase as an achievement is cool as well, considering it took 350 hours
16:15<V453000>and zephyris deserves all the respect as nobody did anything more useful even until now, but that doesnt mean it is actually good :)
16:15*andythenorth wonders how long Simon Foster had to draw original sprites
16:15<andythenorth>maybe 1 year?
16:15<Samu>i like my gpu upscalling from 1280x720
16:16<andythenorth>probably in DPaint on an Amiga?
16:16<V453000>idk really but must have been a while, I would assume something like a year
16:17<V453000>holy shit at your signalling Samu
16:17<andythenorth>perhaps he used MS Paint
16:17<andythenorth>or MacDraw
16:17<andythenorth>or even :o Corel
16:17<Samu>oh I got a viewer
16:18<V453000>software is quite irrelevant for pixel art tbh :)
16:18<frosch123>andythenorth: did it support scroll lock?
16:20<V453000>also, the filesizes with 32bpp/extra zoom are quite wtf too
16:20<frosch123>i only remember one software that ever made use of scroll lock, some weird dos paint program
16:20<V453000>RAWR will probably not get under 300MB
16:20<V453000>even with the first versions of only landscape/tracks/roads
16:21<V453000>not even all the shitload of other stuff
16:22<V453000>and if you suddenly have an industry set with 200MB, train set with 200MB, landscape with 200MB, station set with 200MB, it adds up quickly ._.
16:22<V453000>some people are complaining about my newgrfs already :D
16:22<frosch123>yeah, i worry 1.6 will have to deal with more 32bpp stuff :)
16:23<V453000>that is probably inevitable as time passes
16:24<V453000>at the same time there arent really any people who actually do create 32bpp/ez on a serious scale
16:24<frosch123>oh, don't worry, that's only a matter of time
16:25<frosch123>old people do pixel drawing, young people do not even consider that
16:25<V453000>well lets see :) if bad brett releases at least something lets see how useful will that be :)
16:26<Samu>did i get any reply the other day about dried river tiles?
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16:27<deniz1a>are train wagons the same for all track types?
16:27<frosch123>not necessarily
16:27<frosch123>usually they are the same for elrail/normal rail
16:27<frosch123>but it's up to the newgrf
16:28<Samu>guess not
16:29<deniz1a>is the source code of reduced passenger rate newgrf available?
16:29<frosch123>check it's website link, if it has any
16:30<deniz1a>there isn't any link in description
16:30<frosch123>no link in the content download either?
16:31<frosch123>no idea then
16:31*dreck points to grfcodec
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16:37<Samu>oh nice, timetables are autofilled now
16:40<Samu>I feel like photoshopping something in the orders menu, it's a bit clumsy
16:40<Samu>for a suggestion
16:42*andythenorth adds Birdshit Mine
16:42<andythenorth>or Batshit Mine
16:42<frosch123>Guano Mine
16:42<andythenorth>good guess
16:44<frosch123>give it the clay pit/quarry graphics, just with a white-greenish lake
16:48<frosch123>so a car park under some trees instead?
16:49<andythenorth>waiting for V453000 to render me something
16:49<andythenorth>a _giant_ bat
16:49<andythenorth>if that doesn’t happen, Dan has drawn this
16:49<andythenorth>needs some more shading
16:50<andythenorth>intended to be built on water, maybe I can make it build on land too
16:50<andythenorth>not sure if I can permit both
16:50<andythenorth>but I am hoping for the giant bat, in a FIRS style
16:50<V453000>I am a selfish cunt and I only render for meself and CATS and sending Pikka yeti meshes :P
16:51<Samu>ms paint-shop suggestion:
16:51<Samu>0, 25, 50, 75, 100, as presets
16:51<andythenorth>ah that
16:51<andythenorth>V453000 has ruled that out already
16:52<Samu>maybe improve upon the others as well
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17:03<Samu>more photoshop suggestions:
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17:17<Samu>someone went crazy and planted trees everywhere, it is increasing my stream upload rate considerably during motion
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17:47<Samu>windows 10 will be free for owners of windows 7 :)
17:47<Samu>I am pleased
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18:11<Samu>can i post suggestions in the bug tracker, under feature request or better not?
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>a post in the tracker is better for developer response, a post in the forum is better for user/community response. if you have nothing that benefits the development effort, a post on the tracker is probably useless
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18:38<Samu>the suggestion is about conditional orders with buttons instead of drop down, like in the image I edited
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think there is already a larger topic about order gui restructuring
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18:48<Samu>order gui restructuring
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19:10<Samu>there is a bug with the listing of vehicle number post 99 in the depot
19:10<Samu>it shrinks from 6x4 size to 5x4
19:11<Samu>for road vehicles
19:15<Samu>I suck at explaining things. Example: build road vehicle 100 -> the grid-list of vehicles changes from 6x4 to 5x4 and the width shrinks
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 24 00:00:41 2015