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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-24

---Logopened Sat Jan 24 00:00:41 2015
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00:57<@Alberth>hihi
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02:01<supermop>hi
02:05<@Alberth>o/
02:11<supermop>hows it going Alberth ?
02:12<@Alberth>awake too early, fighting git, snow outside, otherwise spiffy :)
02:13<supermop>is 85 or so here
02:13<supermop>so 30-something
02:14<supermop>was going to go surfing but all of the rental cars in the city are sold out so just played openttd, bought tortillas pork and fruit at the market, got some beer and more openttd
02:14<supermop>so a nice day
02:15<@Alberth>hmm, -1 celcius here at 8 am, going up to 5 or so I believe
02:15<@Alberth>lots of openttd can't be bad :)
02:17<supermop>small map with busy bee, full firs (no room for all industries at map creation so i've had to fund a few), pipe and sbb set
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02:17<supermop>and the beer is a new one with some pretty good graphic design
02:21<@Alberth>how do you like bb?
02:22<supermop>good, although it does feel a bit pointless? less pointless that a regular game though
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02:23<supermop>on this small map its hard to resist connecting industries other than the goals
02:23<@Alberth>:) it's still sandbox play with bb
02:23<supermop>if i get a goal to deliver bauxite, i feel i should go ahead and deliver the aluminum to get more money
02:24<supermop>although i am resisting the urge
02:24<supermop>but after 10 years there are few possible goals not already served
02:24<@Alberth>I found it gives out the same goals after some time
02:25<supermop>maybe its better on a huge map
02:25<@Alberth>probably the script is too picky
02:25<@Alberth>or it should improve on analyzing what's already there
02:25<supermop>i like the idea of ending up with a big legacy network after some years that results from all of these small routes you had to build
02:26<@Alberth>on a small map, the lower bound on the distance may be too large
02:26<supermop>rather than planning the comprehensive network from the start
02:26<@Alberth>andythenorth and I had the same experience :)
02:26<supermop>as it is challanging to make the lines you built for that first clay goal now make sense for 4 other services as well
02:27<supermop>do you terminate service after the goal is met? i don't
02:27<supermop>maybe i should to receive new goals
02:27<@Alberth>local distance = GSBase.RandRange(200) + 50; // Distance 50 .. 250 tiles. <-- that's its aim
02:27<supermop>i like using the sbb sets expensive an slower trains as well
02:29<supermop>with this as i am in the 1930s and i carefully cascade steam engines to new branches when a goal opens up, and replace the mainline service with a $$$ electric
02:29<@Alberth>I also keep the service running afterwards, it's more work to take it down again
02:29<supermop>and forcing myself to timetable around 66kmh crocodiles is more fun than just having everything at 100kmh
02:29<supermop>indeed
02:30<supermop>if money were tighter i would move the trains elsewhere
02:31<supermop>the map only has three towns and ive only had one passenger goal though
02:31<@Alberth>I like playing with few industries which makes the number of useful lines quite small perhaps
02:31<supermop>and the mainland with most industries has only one town
02:32<supermop>so i am missing passenger transit
02:32<supermop>and the towns seem to languish a bit
02:32<@Alberth>pax is one cargo, compared to 30(?) non-pax cargoes :)
02:32<@Alberth>perhaps it should allow tuning pax importance in some way?
02:33<supermop>true but i aim to improve the quality of life for all those poor souls growing up in a town with no roads to anywhere!
02:33<supermop>well i usually focus mostly on pax because i feel industries are not urban-focused enough in most games
02:33<supermop>this game i am focused on industries
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02:34<@Alberth>bb does filter cargos without production, but that fails with firs, as it makes all industries produce something
02:34<supermop>but i thought maybe there could be a town related reward for goal completion though
02:34<supermop>extra money is worthless
02:35<@Alberth>that's why you don't get that :)
02:35<supermop>but maybe a short boost to town growth if a pax goal is met
02:35<supermop>or something
02:35<supermop>although i like the idea of being paid only for my goals
02:36<supermop>thats not sandbox really though
02:36<@Alberth>yeah, but it means changing openttd itself
02:36<@Alberth>as currently you cannot control that
02:36<@Alberth>the script doesn't even know how much money you get
02:36<supermop>well there is the cashdrain method of just clawing back payments
02:37<@Alberth>it only knows the amount
02:37<@Alberth>yeah, but it's an ugly work around, imho
02:37<supermop>i guess you would need a gs+newgrf
02:38<supermop>newgrf set payment rate to zero or very small, then gs gives you money?
02:38<@Alberth>interesting idea
02:38<@Alberth>basecost mod to reduce payments
02:39<@Alberth>sounds like a nice experiment :)
02:39<@Alberth>oh, there was a topic about cargo payments in the forum I think
02:40<supermop>the gs would even work without
02:40<supermop>without it just gives you huge rewards of extra money, with you only get money from gs
02:41<@Alberth>you'd be back to giving you money for the goal, which we just established as not-useful
02:41<supermop>and it could pay in various ways though rather than just distance*tile
02:42<@Alberth>true
02:42<@Alberth>I still have the idea of having contracts to deliver built into openttd
02:42<@Alberth>too bad cargo-dist breaks such things :(
02:42<supermop>me too but i assume no one wants to put that in
02:43<supermop>can gs ask you if you want a goal?
02:43<@Alberth>it can open a query window, I think
02:43<supermop>what if it asks if i want to deliver coal to x
02:44<@Alberth>there is also the story book, I don't know what you can do there
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02:45<@Alberth>I do want to add such a thing, but as usual I have too many things that I am doing and I want to do
02:45<supermop>i say yes, then it grants me 100 million
02:46<supermop>then i try to run a service for less than that
02:46<supermop>i keep the left over or take a loss
02:46<supermop>and if i fail the goal gs takes the 100M back
02:46<@Alberth>that would be the idea, indeed
02:47<@Alberth>but you need full control over payments to push a user into that
02:47<@Alberth>currently you can just add a random line to make money
02:47<supermop>yeah
02:48<@Alberth>thus gs needs to be able to change payment policies
02:49<supermop>this map would really benefit from articulated ships
02:49<@Alberth>like I said, I have lots of things I want to work on :p
02:49<@Alberth>it would make ships much more fun
02:50<@Alberth>I have been playing with this idea with trains, but it's not really working nicely
02:50<@Alberth>you cannot dynamically change the train orders
02:50<supermop>auto refit to more than one cargo would also be good
02:51<@Alberth>it does that, doesn't it (each wagon can change to a different cargo afaik)
02:51<supermop>not really
02:51<@Alberth>hmm, ok
02:52<@Alberth>I should experiment more with it perhaps
02:52<supermop>if i want it to carry engineering supplies and building materials one way, but lumber and farm supplies on the way back
02:52<supermop>i can only say refit to lumber or refit to farm supplies
02:52<@Alberth>ah, right
02:53<@Alberth>yes, you need more flexible orders
02:53<supermop>if i do refit to any available it could work, but only if CD has already established that both of those cargoes go that way
02:53<@Alberth>the current system pushes all options into one order line, which is bound to becomes extremely complicated
02:53<supermop>yes
02:54<@Alberth>that needs to change into a more modular system
02:54<@Alberth>having several lines at one station, in some way
02:54<@Alberth>*order lines, that is
02:55<supermop>heres a thing that bugs me:
02:55<supermop>often i upgrade before an engines is too old
02:55<supermop>because i need a bigger one on that route, or a bigger ship or whatever
02:56<supermop>and i like to reuse the old one elsewhere
02:56<supermop>but autoreplace just sells the old vehicle, even if it has life left in it,
02:56<supermop>leaving me to buy a new small one for the small line
02:57<supermop>I'd like a 'cascade' option as part of autoreplace
02:57<@Alberth>that's a new one :)
02:57<supermop>where it replaces the old vehicle with a new one, but does not sell the old one
02:57<supermop>instead leaves it in the depot with no orders
02:58<@Alberth>nice idea
02:58<supermop>so train 1 has a steam locomotive but after 3 years i need it to be faster, so it goes to depot and switches for a new crocodile
02:59<@Alberth>I understand the idea :)
02:59<supermop>leave with same train number, same timetable, new locomotive
02:59<supermop>but the old steam locomotive is now train 2 and has no orders
02:59<@Alberth>autoreplace should learn about consists, imho
03:00<supermop>as it stands i have to do it by hand, which is ok except for lining up with the timetable in a shared group
03:01<@Alberth>adding an option in the autoreplace window not to sell the old engine shouldn't be too hard
03:01<@Alberth>that is, until you have several replacements going on, and you only want it for some of the old engines, etc
03:03<supermop>well i can always sell the extra old ones
03:03<@Alberth>one step further, you want to use the old engine for auto-replacing of another consist
03:03<supermop>yes
03:04<@Alberth>and then it gets REALLY complicated :p
03:04<supermop>autoreplace with "SH 25" - use old one if one is in depot, otherwise buy a new one....
03:04<@Alberth>or "wait until one arrives"
03:05<@Alberth>number of options explodes somewhat :)
03:05<supermop>or autoreplace and tell the old one to drive to a depot where someone is waiting for it.... hehe
03:05<@Alberth>but you'd have the concept of "idle rolling stock" in some way
03:06<supermop>i dont mind just having a pile of old engines and figuring out what to do with them myself
03:08<supermop>i like this game as my little branch lines and dockrailways have an odd assortment of mixmatched old stock from various places
03:09<@Alberth>yeah, autoreplace isn't really designed to handle that, currently
03:10<@Alberth>I don't even bother with groups, and just do a global auto replace of engines
03:14<supermop>what have you been working on with trains?
03:18<@Alberth>in the game, or in programming?
03:18<supermop>either i guess
03:18<@Alberth>:)
03:18<@Alberth>in programming, nothing really
03:19<@Alberth>mostly doing GUI things, like adding hide buttons for vehicle purchases, presets that you can save now
03:20<@Alberth>currently working on the "new game" window, but a bit stuck on the MHL changes that are coming
03:21<@Alberth>in the game, I normally focus on industries, trying to make a "move everything to everywhere" concept for all industrial cargoes
03:21<@Alberth>I never succeed though :)
03:21<@Alberth>I can't play it for very long
03:21<supermop>container trains everywhere?
03:22<@Alberth>that would be the simple solution of course
03:22<@Alberth>but also somewhat boring, except for the insane amounts of cargoes you'd have to move
03:23<@Alberth>I am also trying to understand newgrfs, but nfo language is so terribly unreadable
03:24<@Alberth>the nml compiler is written in terms of nfo concepts as well, which is not helping if you don't understand nfo :p
03:25<@Alberth>but I do things like writing Eints, writing busy bee, coding in FreeRCT, and dabbling in the Corsix-TH code fighting with GIT
03:26<@Alberth>and a lot of chatting / reading forum :)
03:28<supermop>heh
03:29<supermop>is it possible to shade certain sprites based on slope?
03:30<@Alberth>each slope is a different sprite, afaik
03:30<supermop>so trees on a NW W or SW slope get darkened by x%?
03:30<@Alberth>ah, you mean other sprites than the slope :)
03:31<supermop>as it is now, trees completely camouflage the terrain
03:31<@Alberth>no idea at all, sorry
03:31<supermop>and there is no way to see if an area is hilly or flat if covered in trees
03:31<@Alberth>you need a newgrf guru for that question
03:32<@Alberth>seems like a nice idea if it can be done
03:33<supermop>maybe i will post a suggestion
03:35<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/generate_world_wip.png <-- WIP for the world gen window
03:36<@Alberth>it mostly depends on whether you can make a nice preview of the world quickly
03:37<supermop>cool
03:37<supermop>well it could just look like the minimap right?
03:37<supermop>1px per tile of so?
03:38<supermop>"decorate land"?
03:39<supermop>add new objects?
03:39<@Alberth>1px per tile wouldn't work for 4096x4096
03:39<@Alberth>but just like the minimap, mostly, is the idea
03:40<supermop>yeah, minimap can zoom out though
03:40<supermop>i guess you'd want tan px for desert and white px for snowy areas
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03:41<@Alberth>idea is to first make the bare landscape, do a preview, until happy
03:41<@Alberth>then add all other things, like towns, industries, canals, etc
03:41<@Alberth>the latter part takes a long time
03:42<@Alberth>I was thinking just heightmap, but desert/snow could be useful too
03:43<@Alberth>first problem is however to put the entire map in a very small area, yet be able to see how it looks
03:44<@Alberth>pixel colours are not difficult to change :)
03:46<@Alberth>because of this, I was toying with the original map generator, and found it offers very different game play than terra genesis
03:47<@Alberth>lots of small raised areas with little gaps every where
03:54<supermop>i like to play heightmaaps but spend so long correcting them that i lose interest before i even start to play
03:58<@Alberth>play an "old" heightmap instead of making a new one :)
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04:02<andythenorth>o/
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04:12<@Alberth>moin
04:13<andythenorth>oops
04:13*andythenorth is out of industry IDs
04:13<andythenorth>64 used
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04:14<@Alberth>full firs is too full :)
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04:15<andythenorth>nah
04:15<andythenorth>this is because multiple economies
04:15<andythenorth>I can manually re-used IDs carefully
04:15<andythenorth>but eh, it needs ficing fixing properly
04:15<andythenorth>fixing * :)
04:18<andythenorth>the list of FIRS fixes grows :)
04:18<andythenorth>broken makefil
04:18<andythenorth>slow compile
04:18<andythenorth>incomplete templating
04:19<@Alberth>lots of challenges!
04:19<andythenorth>I can sit and poke at it after this release
04:19<andythenorth>first….fix the makefile
04:19<supermop>Alberth: but then i am stuck with new grfs
04:19<andythenorth>requiring ‘make clean’ every time is not helpful :|
04:19<@Alberth>supermop: with a heightmap???
04:20<supermop>need to do finescale work with valleys and rivers in SE
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04:20<@Alberth>hmm, good point
04:21<supermop>andythenorth: can i take the sand/clay bunkers from firs industries and throw them on chips tiles?
04:21<supermop>would look better than random piles everywhere in the station
04:21<andythenorth>supermop: probably
04:22<andythenorth>I’m not adding them to CHIPS right now
04:22<andythenorth>got enough things up in the air
04:22<andythenorth>but yeah, if you want to make your own grf
04:22<andythenorth>or fork CHIPS and provide a patch on a ticket
04:23<supermop>pipeline from lime kiln to alu plant looks funny
04:23<supermop>waiting for a coal goal to get this thing going though
04:24<andythenorth>pipelines ftw
04:24*andythenorth going to do a pipe grf in future
04:24<andythenorth>that sounds like super-realisms, a pipeline for lime slurry
04:24<@Alberth>s/fork/clone/
04:24<supermop>needs conveyors and log flumes
04:24<supermop>logs refit to logs
04:24<supermop>or to people riding logs
04:25<andythenorth>http://forum.bulk-online.com/showthread.php?805-Milk-of-Lime-Slurry-10km-Pipeline
04:25<supermop>log has 0hp and cant go uphill
04:26<andythenorth>major problem with fake pipe transport (using trains) is that you have to build double track for the empty return journey
04:26<andythenorth>which is frankly just boring :P
04:27<supermop>im doing ok with just arrow shuttling back and forth
04:28<andythenorth>works for short routes
04:28<supermop>i love how this forum is serving me ads for snack food conveyor systems
04:28<andythenorth>whatever I design, I’m going to try and support single track pipe routes
04:28<andythenorth>probably has to use ridiculously high speed
04:28<supermop>should the pipe even be that viable over long routs
04:28<andythenorth>high capacity is undesirable, takes too long to load
04:28<supermop>routs
04:28<andythenorth>yes
04:28<andythenorth>it should
04:28<supermop>routes
04:29<andythenorth>oh, nmlc hates me
04:29<supermop>i mostly use when the oil well is so close to the refinery it just looks silly to have a train
04:29<andythenorth>FIRS is actually going to hit a hard limit on industry tiles, because nmlc won’t permit double-assignment on them
04:30<supermop>previously i used heqs trams in tunnels hidden behind the refinery
04:30<andythenorth>or maybe it’s just the string identifiers, not the numerics
04:30*andythenorth thinking out loud sorry
04:30*andythenorth -> obligations, bbl
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04:35<supermop>i guess its more accurate to supply the aluminum plant with chemicals derived from stone rather than oil
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04:40<@Alberth>I don't think accuracy is one of the design goals of firs :)
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04:59<Wolf01>hello
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05:05<supermop>yo
05:06<@Alberth>o/
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05:52<supermop>off for now
05:57<@Alberth>bye
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06:13<andythenorth>hmm
06:13<andythenorth>is red industry minimap colour good for water industry?
06:13<andythenorth>short on good options
06:17<@Alberth>it beats blue :p
06:18<@Alberth>green with red is more problematic for many colour-blind people
06:20*andythenorth tries dark green
06:20<andythenorth>might be rubbish
06:25<@Alberth>full colour industry colours!
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06:30<dreck>hi
06:37<andythenorth>animated industry colours!
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06:54<andythenorth>I should really fix this makefile
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06:55<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/Makefile.in
06:55<andythenorth>so should make rm generated/pnml/firs.pnml when called?
06:56<andythenorth>oh, the issue is that make sees no changes when called any time after first run
06:56<andythenorth>so if it only works when it finds changes in firs.pnml, I should remove firs.pnml on each make?
06:58<andythenorth>currently I have to call ‘make clean && make install’ which is really inefficient, because it deletes all caches
06:59<andythenorth>so compiles are about 20-40s longer than they need to be
07:04<@Alberth>where does firs.pnml come from?
07:04<@Alberth>scripts/preprocess.py generates it?
07:05<@Alberth>you're not editing that python script ?
07:06<andythenorth>very rarely
07:06<andythenorth>very very rarely
07:07<andythenorth>it used to be a phony target iirc, which worked fine
07:07<andythenorth>but apparently this method is the correct one so I changed it
07:07<@Alberth>generated/pnml/firs.pnml: scripts/preprocess.py <-- that means that "generated/pnml/firs.pnml" needs to be rebuild when "scripts/preprocess.py" is changed
07:07<andythenorth>yes
07:08<@Alberth>so what are you changing instead, and what needs to be done then?
07:08<andythenorth>so it’s behaving as expected
07:08<andythenorth>but not usefully
07:08<andythenorth>I change the things in src/industries, src/cargos, src/graphics
07:08<@Alberth>well, it assumes the list dependencies behind the : is complete
07:08<andythenorth>and more rarely, global_constants, and the compile scripts
07:09<@Alberth>time to update firs checkout :)
07:10*andythenorth reads history of own changes
07:10<andythenorth>maybe I was being stupid
07:10<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/35038ae89eb9/diff/Makefile.in
07:10<andythenorth>looks suspect
07:10<@Alberth>maybe add ".nmlcache" in the .hgignore file?
07:11<andythenorth>o_O
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07:11<andythenorth>would that cause the makefile to not clean it?
07:12<V453000>rewrite it all
07:12<@Alberth>don't know what the script does, so cannot judge that change
07:12<V453000>everything
07:12<@Alberth>no, it prevents hg from listing all cached files as untracked :)
07:12<andythenorth>doesn’t do that for me
07:12<andythenorth>ah, different nml versions?
07:12<andythenorth>mine is aging
07:13<@Alberth>it is about hg, not about nml
07:13<andythenorth>hmm
07:13<@Alberth>maybe you have ~/.hgignore with a .nmlcache entry
07:13<andythenorth>I have no .nmlcache :)
07:13<@Alberth>hmm, that also helps :p
07:13<andythenorth>I have firs.grf.cache
07:14<andythenorth>I am on ancient nml, 0.3.0
07:14<@Alberth>frosch changed cache stuff quite dramatically iirc
07:15<andythenorth>I also need to update my nml
07:15<andythenorth>which means a hybrid python2/3 compile, but I have that working in Squid
07:16<@Alberth>what in src in actual source, and what is generated?
07:16<andythenorth>99% of src is src, or 100%
07:16<andythenorth>I’m just checking
07:16<andythenorth>nothing generated in src
07:17<andythenorth>I got rid of that silly mistake :)
07:17<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pyi64tbxa <-- .pyc are not generated? :)
07:17<andythenorth>ach
07:17<andythenorth>sorry :)
07:17<@Alberth>but .py and .pnml are both source?
07:18-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
07:18<@Alberth>oh .pypnml
07:18<andythenorth>all of them
07:18<@Alberth>ok
07:18<andythenorth>preventing the .pyc would probably be…sub-optimal :)
07:18<andythenorth>I guess
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07:19<@Alberth>it's no problem
07:20<andythenorth>are you thinking of doing something like src/* as deps list?
07:22<Samu>hi! issue: i was leveling a huge block of terrain in the scenario editor from a height of 255 to 0 and the game went zzzz. Waited 30 minutes and it was still not over and gave up, I forced close openttd.exe
07:22<Samu>:(
07:23<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptj0seopv
07:23<Samu>leveling up was not as intensive as leveling down
07:25<@Alberth>INDUSTRY_PY_SRC = $(wildcard src/industries/[a-z]*.py) collects all industry .py files
07:25<andythenorth>hmm, I can never curl patches from pastebin and have them apply successfully
07:25<@Alberth>INDUSTRY_PYPNML_SRC = $(INDUSTRY_PY_SRC:.py=.pypnml) same collection, but .py -> .pypnml
07:25<andythenorth>nvm
07:26<@Alberth>line 10 and 13 then add both collections as dependencies to the target
07:26<@Alberth>if you change any of the src/industry/*.py[pnml] files, the target will be rebuild
07:27*andythenorth tests
07:31<andythenorth>takes a while :) slow compile
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07:37<andythenorth>Alberth: appears to work, I haven’t tested if it’s picking up changes to deps properly
07:37<andythenorth>before patch: 3m12s
07:37<andythenorth>after patch: 2m 35s
07:38<andythenorth>because the caches are intact and primed
07:38-!-Guest3076 [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:38<andythenorth>serious speed up
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07:39<@Alberth>the other files can be added in a similar way
07:40<andythenorth>plausibly I could remove preprocess .py and call the python render scripts directly from make
07:40<andythenorth>I’m reticent because I fail to make progress with make every time I try
07:40<andythenorth>and also because it’s fundamentally a monolithic compile, no partial compiling, so checking deps is of very low value
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07:46*andythenorth wonders how the rest of it works
07:47<andythenorth>the graphics aren’t deps for the .nml file, so if only graphics have changed, no need to process all the nml deps
07:49<@Alberth>you need to check being up-to-date of the deps wrt the nml file
07:49<@Alberth>or rather, the other way around
07:49<andythenorth>so first I need to make sure all the other .py files are caught
07:49<andythenorth>including src/cargos
07:49<andythenorth>and then figure out how to handle the graphics deps
07:50<andythenorth>urgh there are random legacy files still needed
07:50<andythenorth>like basetiles.pnml
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08:04<andythenorth>Alberth: correct approach? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/1952aa678cc3/diff/Makefile.in
08:05<@Alberth>no .pypnml files there?
08:05<andythenorth>nah
08:05<andythenorth>properly templated
08:05<@Alberth>seems fine
08:05<andythenorth>this would be easier if I un-messed the FIRS structure
08:05<andythenorth>but testing that is too slow to bear :)
08:06<andythenorth>I’ll do the rest
08:06<andythenorth>so I shouldn’t worry about weird special cases in these deps?
08:06<andythenorth>one-off files with no proper home etc
08:07<@Alberth>just add all files where the target depends on
08:08<@Alberth>the $(wildcard ...) thing is just a short hand for writing all filenames in full
08:08<andythenorth>handy
08:08<andythenorth>so I could add a target for docs too?
08:08<@Alberth>if you want
08:08<andythenorth>baby steps first I think
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08:16<andythenorth>probably some of these files aren’t actually deps for the preprocess.py
08:16<andythenorth>but I’m terrified of having a really fragile, detailed deps list
08:19<@Alberth>preprocess ?
08:19-!-urdh [urdh@00013d7a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: boom]
08:19<@Alberth>or are you making a new preprocess.py target?
08:20<andythenorth>no
08:20<andythenorth>more likely I misunderstand make
08:21<@Alberth>make thinks in terms of files that change due to changes in other files
08:21<andythenorth>there are some pnml files that are untouched by preprocess.py
08:21<andythenorth>yet they will appear in the deps list that causes preprocess.py to be called
08:21<andythenorth>or at least, that’s how I understand it
08:21<andythenorth>:)
08:21<andythenorth>untouched / unrelated /s
08:22<andythenorth>I am not worried about that right now, more a question about my understanding
08:22<@Alberth>the only thing that's wrong in your reasoning is that preprocess is not a target, it doesn't change
08:23<andythenorth>the target is “generated/pnml/firs.pnml”?
08:23<@Alberth>yes
08:23<andythenorth>and scripts/preprocess.py is one of the rule steps for generating it?
08:24<@Alberth>generated/pnml/firs.pnml gets rebuild if the scripts/preprocess.py generator script changes, or when one of the .py or .pypnml files changes that you add at the end
08:25<@Alberth>the procedure to rebuild the generated/pnml/firs.pnml is then to call the generator script
08:25<andythenorth>ok so my blanket deps rules are including files that can change without needing generated/pnml/firs.pnml to be rebuilt
08:25<andythenorth>but I am electing to not lose sleep over that
08:25<@Alberth>with all the .py and .pypnml files are internal in the generator script, you don't need to list them as arguments to the generator script
08:26<@Alberth>that causes unneeded rebuilds at worst
08:26<@Alberth>worry about it when it happens often :)
08:32<andythenorth>as arguments? o_O
08:32<andythenorth>the sysargs?
08:32*andythenorth is dense, sorry
08:32<@Alberth>just like c compilers, gcc -o result.exe *.c :p
08:33<@Alberth>sys.argv for python
08:33<andythenorth>ok, I think that’s fine
08:33-!-Eddi|zuHause is now known as Eddi|zuHause2
08:33-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause3
08:33<@Alberth>but importing .py files that you get as filename is not so simple
08:33-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a terrible idea
08:34<@Alberth>I never looked into that, as I don't trust user-provided input enough
08:34<@Alberth>but some people do it
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>but i think it should be easy
08:35<andythenorth>I wouldn’t do it that way if I was doing it :)
08:35<Samu>hi again.I can't find the setting to have cargo waiting in stations without the need of a vehicle
08:35<andythenorth>I’d look up the name in the existing list I have of modules
08:35<Samu>was it removed?
08:35-!-Absolutis [~Absolutis@dsl-tkubrasgw3-54f96a-247.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
08:35<Absolutis>Hey
08:35<@Alberth>ho
08:36<Absolutis>I'm trying to move the openttd data folder from my c: drive to another drive
08:36<Absolutis>Could anyone help me with that?
08:36*andythenorth looks up how to give make just a list of known filenames, no wildcard
08:36<@Alberth>your windows system does not know how to move a file?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: it's called like "deliver cargo only if there is demand"
08:37-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
08:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: BLA = a.x b.x c.x etc just a space as separator
08:37<Samu>ah
08:37-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d0095f5.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #openttd
08:37<Absolutis>I know how to physically move it, but how to make openttd look for it in that 2nd drive?
08:38<Samu>that setting yes, I can't find it
08:38<@planetmaker>Absolutis, the folders where OpenTTD looks for files are described in readme section 4
08:38<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks
08:38<@planetmaker>there's no config setting. but close to cfg
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08:39<frosch123>hai
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08:40<Samu>i filter with string "deliver" no results, I'm listing expert category and all setting types
08:41<@Alberth>deliver is wrong, you never deliver to a station
08:41<@Alberth>try station or cargo or so
08:43<Samu>it's gone
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>Absolutis: you probably want to set "working directory" in your desktop/menu link that you use to start openttd with
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>Absolutis: alternatively, you could tell windows to move your entire "documents" folder to the other drive
08:45<Samu>tried station, cargo, demand, deliver, and it doesn't come up. It shows other results that aren't what I'm looking for
08:46-!-shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.111.147] has joined #openttd
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>is this known?
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>In file included from /mnt/disk2/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk_clean/src/crashlog.cpp:193:0:
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>/usr/include/libpng12/png.h:2659:31: warning: invalid suffix on literal; C++11 requires a space between literal and identifier [-Wliteral-suffix]
08:47<Eddi|zuHause> fprintf(PNG_DEBUG_FILE,"%s"m PNG_STRING_NEWLINE,(num_tabs==1 ? "\t" : \
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how and where that comes from
08:48<@Alberth>looks like png.h
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08:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that warning makes little sense, it's within a macro, so there is actually no suffix
08:51<@Alberth>Samu: true
08:51<frosch123>anyway, it's libpng, so no worries for us
08:52<Samu>t.t - I liked that feature for doing vehicle vs vehicle comparisons
08:53<Samu>it was nive to have cargo already waiting
08:53<Samu>nice*
08:53<@Alberth>Samu: you can change it in openttd.cfg or in the console with a variable that ends with order.selectgoods
08:53<@Alberth>it was also nice to get negative rating due to cargo you didn't pick up
09:16*andythenorth ponders sorting out the makefile more
09:18<andythenorth>giving docs own target would seem wise
09:18<andythenorth>but main makefile already has one, with assumptions that don’t match FIRS
09:18<andythenorth>maybe I can over-ride that without breaking it?
09:21<@Alberth>you can use a target as dependency elsewhere
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09:24<deniz1a>is there a rail signal that is one way but is ignored in the reverse direction? so a do not enter sign?
09:25<deniz1a>or a go to command but in a negative way: avoid this waypoint for example
09:26<Samu>I found a minor bug. Vehicle age isn't counted correctly. I bought an aircraft on 01-01-2051, and it only became 25 years old on 20-01-2076. 19 days difference.
09:26<deniz1a>i would use one way block signal to stop trains from entering in the reverse direction but that also creates another signal block
09:27<andythenorth>Samu: how many leap years in that period?
09:27<Samu>no idea, seriously
09:27<andythenorth>probably not that
09:27<andythenorth>that is a shocking difference though
09:27*andythenorth is disappointed
09:27<dreck>deniz1a a normal one-way signal can't be used from the back side so I'm not too sure I understand what you're asking
09:27<deniz1a>maybe the vehicle was traveling really fast
09:29<deniz1a>dreck: normal one way signal works to block trains entering from the reverse direction but in the forward direction it also creates another signal block or divides the existing block into two smaller parts
09:29<dreck>deniz1a are you not using one-way signal in the first place for your one block?
09:30<dreck>you don't need some "two smaller parts"
09:30<deniz1a>i use it and it works for blocking the trains. but i had already set up the signals and signal blocks. it changes the existing signal blocks
09:31<dreck>mind posting a screenshot?
09:31<deniz1a>so each pair of signals create a signal block, right?
09:31<@Alberth>a signal at an end of a track is also a block
09:31<deniz1a>it's not about the shape of the tracks actually. wait i'll explain
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09:32<deniz1a>Alberth: but you don't need a signal at the end of a track, right? it already ends the signal block
09:32<andythenorth>hmm
09:32<andythenorth>broke my nml
09:33<@Alberth>deniz1a: that was just a counter-example for your claim
09:33<@Alberth>you can easily make other counter examples, by adding junctions
09:34<@Alberth>I don't know if your formulation is wrong, or if you have the wrong idea about signal blocks
09:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: need glue?
09:35<andythenorth>too much string
09:35<andythenorth>I have multiple nmlc installs, for valid reasons
09:36<andythenorth>and ‘make install’ provides none of them correctly :P
09:36<dreck>alberth thats why I asked for a screenshot..would make things easier no?
09:36<@Alberth>dreck: quite likely :)
09:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: hard-code the NML path in the Makefile ?
09:39<@Alberth>although your "compiling_firs.txt" seems to mention adding the right nml to the path :p
09:40<andythenorth>currently it’s just broken in my nml checkout
09:40<andythenorth>haven’t got as far as FIRS yet
09:40<andythenorth>./nmlc works
09:40<andythenorth>but nmlc fails
09:41<@Alberth>the former doesn't use the PATH variable
09:42<@Alberth>PATH=.:$PATH make if you want to live very dangerously
09:42<andythenorth>I am intrigued
09:42<andythenorth>it worked
09:42<andythenorth>I pulled
09:42<andythenorth>I ran make install
09:42<andythenorth>I broke it
09:42<@Alberth>(ie add "." as first directory to search for a command)
09:44<@Alberth>how does ./nmlc end up in your firs directory?
09:44<andythenorth>it doesn’t
09:44<andythenorth>this is in my nml checkout :)
09:44<andythenorth>I broke Squid and Road Hog and such
09:44<andythenorth>I should never upgrade nml
09:44<andythenorth>ever :|
09:44<Samu>according to my understanding, leap years are 2052 2056 2060 2064 2068 2072 2076
09:44<@Alberth>cd firs-checkout; PATH=nml-checkout make
09:45<andythenorth>nah
09:45<andythenorth>won’t work
09:45<andythenorth>nmlc is broken
09:45<andythenorth>oh maybe not
09:45<Samu>but the place became 25 years old before February 2076, so 6 leap years
09:45<Samu>place*
09:45<Samu>omg plane*
09:45<andythenorth>open .
09:45<andythenorth>eh, wrong window :)
09:45<@Alberth>if you want different nmls for different parts, you cannot use one PATH variable
09:46<@Alberth>somewhere you have to state which one you want for each part
09:46<andythenorth>yes
09:47<andythenorth>I have all that figured out before
09:47<andythenorth>but with a broken nmlc it’s of no use :D
09:47<@Alberth>Samu: so you also go back to the shop when food lasts a few days longer than it says on the package?
09:47<andythenorth>I think I have to go find my backup disk
09:48<@Alberth>hmm, theoretically, you could 'up' the nml checkout while building the newgrf :p
09:48<Samu>what?
09:49<@Alberth>(15:26:35) Samu: I found a minor bug. Vehicle age isn't counted correctly. I bought an aircraft on 01-01-2051, and it only became 25 years old on 20-01-2076. 19 days difference. <-- why is it a bug that the lifespan is 19 days longer than advertised?
09:50<Samu>hmm 19+6=25
09:52<andythenorth>spinning disks are slow
09:53<andythenorth>hurrah
09:53<andythenorth>I replaced my python (virtualenv-ed) bin dir with the one from my backup
09:53<andythenorth>and it works
09:53<@Alberth>\o/
09:53<andythenorth>so make install must have broken my python somehow
09:53<@Alberth>backup test succeeded :p
09:54<@Alberth>disable writing in such directories :)
09:56<andythenorth>ha ha new nml warns about animated pixels \o/
10:02<andythenorth>don’t have old stats for Squid, but new nml seems faster
10:02<andythenorth>8s
10:04<@Alberth>fr0sch has been busy :p
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10:39<Samu>... and the most profitable aircraft is... dependable on the time it takes in an airport, it actually hurts income on some aircraft types
10:40<Samu>by quite some margin
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10:43<deniz1a>can you in reality carry cargo using maglev trains?
10:44<deniz1a>doesn't it have to be relatively light?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>you can, but it's never going to be economically viable
10:44<deniz1a>and are the railway cargo wagons the same as maglev ones?
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>no
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>you need closed/airflow optimized wagons
10:45<deniz1a>i mean in the game
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>also no, rail wagons cannot go on maglev and vice versa
10:46<deniz1a>ok
10:47<deniz1a>wouldn't it be better if train depos were like stations but with different graphics? maintanence stations...
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but nobody implemented it
10:47<deniz1a>it just looks funny how multiple very long trains fit into a single tile depot
10:50<deniz1a>then you could choose the length of the depos and they would behave like stations
10:51<deniz1a>but then again, these are not actual vehicles, right? they're just representations of where they are.
10:52<deniz1a>because each tile represents ~600 km
10:53<deniz1a>but if that is true then what about 7 tile long trains?
10:54<@Alberth>there is no single distance that a tile represents
10:54<@Alberth>scale changes depending on what you look at
10:54<deniz1a>game mechanics wiki says this:
10:54<deniz1a>A tile is, for vehicle speed purposes 664.(216) km-ish, 668 km or 415 miles long.
10:55<@Alberth>so, scale for vehicle speed is that
10:55<@Alberth>scale for vehicle size is different
10:55<@Alberth>scale for house is different
10:55<deniz1a>so there are different scales?
10:55<@Alberth>scale for track is different, etc etct
10:55<deniz1a>oh yeah i hadnt thought about that
10:55<deniz1a>those would be some giant houses
10:56<deniz1a>so there are scale inconsistancies
10:56<@Alberth>that's why 512x512 is enough for SP
10:57<@Alberth>game doesn't gain anything if you make long stretches of track
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>"there are scale inconsistencies" is an understatement if i ever heard one :p
10:57<@Alberth>there is no game play in making endless stretches of straight tracks
10:58<@Alberth>there are no scale inconsistencies, as there is no attempt to use a universal scale for eveything
10:58<@Alberth>*everything
10:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: actually I think there might be a freight maglev test line being built in California
10:58<@Alberth>it doesn't work for the game
10:58<andythenorth>flat platforms moving ISO containers at low speed
10:58<deniz1a>oh and building long train tracks is really hard
10:58<andythenorth>between ports
10:59<deniz1a>you have to correct many terrain issues
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>the true breakthrough of maglev will be when there is a room-temperature superconductor
11:00<@Alberth>as long as it's not required to work at that temperature, we have one :p
11:00<deniz1a>it's like flying right above the ground!
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, obviously that's the requirement :p
11:00<deniz1a>but what if there's some power outage?
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: that's the beauty of it, it doesn't need power
11:01<deniz1a>it doesn't?
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: the power induced by the gravity of the object is enough to lift it up
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>you need a permanent magnet in the levitation platform
11:02<andythenorth>doesn’t that somehow violate a physical principle?
11:02<andythenorth>or does it assume 100% efficiency?
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, sort of, because it assumes the permanent magnet keeps its magnetization
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a perpetuum mobile
11:03<deniz1a>if they don't need power to levitate then that's great
11:04<deniz1a>or at least not much power
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>but with current technology, you need liquid-nitrogen-ish temperatures
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>which is not cost effective by any means
11:04<andythenorth>which requires an input
11:05<Samu>I had an idea! Rather than comparing aircraft vs aircraft, I'm gonna go compare the different airport types and evaluate their efficiency
11:05<Samu>since im bored
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure someone did that already, but please go ahead
11:05<Samu>which airport wield better profit :)
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11:09<deniz1a>what's the point of constructing a headquarters building? does it bring anything?
11:09<andythenorth>Samu: your boredom threshold is actually remarkably high imho :)
11:09<@Alberth>a Tycoon needs a place to live!
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11:11<deniz1a>i always build my hq as the first thing
11:11<andythenorth>it’s just a thing
11:11<andythenorth>you need to put a flag in the ground
11:11<andythenorth>the game benefits from certain things that aren’t purposeful
11:11<deniz1a>yes, no flag no country
11:12<andythenorth>in fact, we might want more things that are not purposeful
11:12<Samu>it accepts passengers
11:12<andythenorth>I wonder if the trend to pure economic or train-based rationalism is helpful to the fun
11:12<andythenorth>it’s not the only trend, but it is a trend
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>the HQ also produces passengers
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think overzealous nonrealism is a bad trend
11:14<andythenorth>equally, perhaps
11:14<Samu>i tried to host an impossible scenario once, but then the players still managed to survive by placing HQs :(
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it may be a helpful corrective
11:14<andythenorth>there is no single trend, given the number of core devs, the absence of a dictator for life, and the way non-core addons are developed
11:14<andythenorth>but there are definitely trends :)
11:16<Samu>btw there is an issue with infrastructure maintenance costs with autocliff
11:16<deniz1a>on one side, game graphics are being improved to make them more realistic but on the other side gameplay is generally not realistic
11:16<Samu>an opponent can raise the cost considerably for the other opponent
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11:17<Samu>an exploit
11:17<Samu>:p
11:17<deniz1a>gameplay realism is more important than graphics i think. which is also nice but it's not everything
11:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: rejecting things solely because they’re realistic is not particularly useful, but yes, a useful antidote to some approaches
11:18<deniz1a>why would something be rejected because it's realistic?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: as said previously, there is no technological way to remove all "exploits"
11:19<andythenorth>deniz1a: because reasons
11:19<andythenorth>bloody hg
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: realistic gameplay and fun gameplay are sometimes conflicting goals
11:20<@Alberth>realistic is not a design goal
11:20<andythenorth>or rather, my bad understanding of how to use the mercurial
11:20<@Alberth>don't eat or drink it :p
11:20<andythenorth>I have uncommited local changes, that are not ready to commit
11:20<andythenorth>but I want to push a fix
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: overly realistic games may turn out to be incredibly boring
11:20<andythenorth>but I can’t because I have to pull and merge
11:20<andythenorth>but I can’t merge because uncommitted local changes
11:20<deniz1a>yes that's true sometimes but it wouldnt be rejected just because it's realistic.. there would be other reasons
11:20<andythenorth>but my local changes break the grf currently
11:20<andythenorth>why is it so hard?
11:20<@Alberth>hg diff > patchfile
11:21<andythenorth>yes
11:21<@Alberth>hg revert stuff
11:21<andythenorth>which is bizarre
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: hg diff > tmp.diff; hg revert, hg merge
11:21<andythenorth>that is stone age :P
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: alternatively, make an mq
11:22<deniz1a>openttd also uses git, right?
11:22<@Alberth>no, openttd uses trains
11:22<andythenorth>ha :)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: there is a git mirror of the openttd svn repo
11:22<deniz1a>ha :)
11:23<deniz1a>why dont they migrate to git or mercurial?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>most people here use hg to develop
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>but svn has some benefits for a central repository
11:23<deniz1a>why do they keep svn?
11:23<deniz1a>oh ok
11:24*andythenorth reverts and bins local changes
11:24<@Alberth>no hg diff > patchfile ?
11:24<andythenorth>faff
11:25<@Alberth>time to make a little light, and some dinner
11:25<andythenorth>I need the extension pm told me about, provides equivalent of git stash
11:25*andythenorth needs to get off hg
11:27<@Alberth>no git <-> hg bridge ?
11:27<@Alberth>although hg stores more information than git, so that may be a little difficult
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: one of the reasons for not migrating to hg or git is that people won't be able to agree on one or the other
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: the other one is that an svn as "master" repository has a clean incremental revision
11:29<deniz1a>but you can have that in git too?
11:29<deniz1a>is there something you can do in svn that you cant in git?
11:31<andythenorth>it’s not about svn is better
11:31<andythenorth>it’s about hg vs git
11:31<+michi_cc>Alberth: There are several converts/importers, but completely bidirectional bridges not so much AFAIK. hg branches/tags work differently than in git while a git merge can have more than two parents and has distinct author and commiter.
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: it's just what i said, the lack of distributedness stuff is what makes svn better as the "master" repository
11:33<Samu>at first glance, it looks like the commuter is very efficient
11:33<andythenorth>I think if I tried a git-hg bridge I’d probably break the hg repo :)
11:34<deniz1a>ok
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: yes, but it requires small airplanes
11:34*andythenorth wishes he’d measured old nmlc speed
11:36<@Alberth>michi_cc: ah so there are more differences thus. I know of only one true bridge, a company like GH, aiming at companies, handles the bridge at storage level at their servers
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: so it's more like a new dvcs which offers both hg and git interfaces?
11:37<@Alberth>yes, and everybody can use either hg or git it doesn't matter
11:38<@Alberth>or at least that's what they claim :)
11:38<@Alberth>it's a company owned by the PLY author, but I cannot find the company
11:39<+michi_cc>There's git-remote-hg for accessing hg repos with git, but I don't know how complete/data-loss-safe it is.
11:39<Samu>aircraft is in flight? now that' simply not true! it's inside depot!
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11:40<@Alberth>hg <-> remote git is awful
11:41<@Alberth>the git semantics creep in everywhere
11:41<andythenorth>nml tip is marginally faster than 2202 which I had before
11:41<andythenorth>it’s not significant so far
11:41<andythenorth>but it seems much faster, because it has more status output
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11:42<@Alberth>due to the makefile?
11:42<andythenorth>nah, this is on Squid and Road Hog
11:42<andythenorth>which are fast anyway
11:42<@Alberth>oh :)
11:42<andythenorth>7s and 9s
11:43<@Alberth>you can\t even have a cup of tea
11:43<andythenorth>annoyingly, last time I tested, there was no specific piece of nml code that made FIRS slow
11:43<andythenorth>it’s just big
11:43<andythenorth>I thought I could maybe drop some features for faster compiling, but no
11:43<@Alberth>65 industries :p
11:44<Samu>aircraft is in flight error: https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2p_Zb87gOD1A2hvODrP8EJBQ6ZxIpayHGFZ5WYmR4uo-xFDGBwvEcewB9T7Xq7njKmIk2pVZbzm_jZCgfpK65DxH1wzGSX0SGr1FyuOyViXAaPj3bDkF_k920huV_ZTCDwAFaWpxZqaaG1tdO5fAGKuw/Aircraft%20in%20flight%20error.png?psid=1
11:44<Samu>is that supposed to happen?
11:44<andythenorth>I tried partial compiles at the nfo / nml level and failed
11:44<andythenorth>my next plan is to limit the input, so compile only a subset of industries and cargos
11:44<andythenorth>that is very likely to help
11:45<@Alberth>I don't know if fr0sch has any plans there
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>don't you already have that?
11:45<andythenorth>I have it for the case of single industry
11:45<andythenorth>but it also requires commenting out nml and CPP macros to make it work
11:45<andythenorth>due to coupling between industries
11:46<andythenorth>it is hugely beneficial when doing stuff like setting up sprite layouts, or testing animation
11:48<andythenorth>I have been slightly inspired by a test runner I have been using
11:48<andythenorth>which can take -t arg with list of tests, or -m with whole module
11:48<Samu>lol, an helicopter just intersected the other in the commuter, one was heading to depot, the other was heading to helipad
11:49<andythenorth>I think ‘proper’ partial compiles with linker are game-over until the string IDs are no longer randomly assigned
11:49<andythenorth>and it might be tmwftlb
11:49<@Alberth>it's probably not
11:50<@Alberth>since partial compilation means you can compile in parallel
11:52<andythenorth>afaict, string IDs were the only significant blocker
11:52<andythenorth>Iron Horse is using the nml-nfo-grfcodec partial compile route
11:53<Samu>im going to report a bug, i think it is a bug
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>but that's only because you didn't properly follow through with my system of defining the string-IDs
11:54<andythenorth>I don’t think it works meaningfully
11:54<andythenorth>or at least, you didn’t like my solutions, which require bringing all strings in to every compile
11:54<Samu>which category do i pick? NewStation?
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, because it's not NewGRF related
11:55<andythenorth>it needs all cargos, and a stub of every industry that uses strings in props or cbs
11:55<andythenorth>and a horrible split on some arbitrary nfo
11:55<andythenorth>which might never go wrong, but seems like The Wrong Thing To Do
11:56<andythenorth>also I got bored of being told I was spending more time than I’d save
11:56<andythenorth>there’s only so much irc mocking any person can take before they abandon a project :P
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was more about you spending more time than was actually necessary to implement it :p
11:57<andythenorth>that’s because I am a mediocre developer
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>because you fell into a pit of dependency tar
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>that was keeping you from doing anything at all
11:58<andythenorth>I still have a branch sitting there
11:58<andythenorth>it’s not far behind
11:59<andythenorth>feel free to merge it and try :)
11:59<andythenorth>the fragile splitting really bothers me though
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12:06<Samu>bug reported: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6219
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12:12<@Alberth>Samu: can you provide a save game as well?
12:13<@Alberth>ie we like a quick way to reproduce the error, so we can concentrate on fixing the problem
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12:15<Samu>ok, sent
12:15<@Alberth>it is also better at reporting in the sense that you may have a setting specific for this behaviour that you forget to mention
12:15<@Alberth>in a save game it's easy to find it
12:15<@Alberth>thank you
12:16<Samu>oh, that save is not showing the bug, darn
12:16<Samu>the helicopters must be built for the bug to happen
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12:16<Samu>if they go to hangar after being out, the bug won't happen
12:17<Samu>i will create another savegame, brb
12:17<@Alberth>ok
12:22<Samu>damn, I failed one step
12:22<Samu>can you edit the bug?
12:22<@Alberth>just add a comment
12:22<Samu>ok, i guess I should have foolproffed this bug first
12:25<Samu>k, apparently I need 2 airports
12:26<Samu>brb
12:26<andythenorth>is there a bug in your bug? o_O
12:26<@Alberth>lol
12:27<andythenorth>buggy bugs
12:27<@Alberth>meta bugs
12:27<andythenorth>more fun than buggy tests
12:27<andythenorth>buggy tests are boring
12:27<@Alberth>indeed
12:27<@Alberth>non buggy tests are boring too
12:28<@Alberth>so many cases to consider
12:28<andythenorth>I only break them, not write them
12:28<andythenorth>as a consumer, I love tests
12:28<@Alberth>:D
12:30<andythenorth>all the cases I’d otherwise forget, or not understand
12:30<Samu>okay basically I need 2 airports. 3rd helicopter must not head to the local commuter, its order must be to a distant airport
12:32<Samu>a skip order is needed on the 3rd helicopter before starting all three, and it must be the 3rd to leave the hangar
12:33<@Alberth>I hope you write all that in the ticket :)
12:33<NGC3982>Are you guys affiliated with the CorsixTH project?
12:34<@Alberth>I code a little there
12:34<NGC3982>I found it this instant and sufferd a minor deja vu.
12:34<NGC3982>:-)
12:34<@Alberth>ok, never played the original
12:35<@Alberth>heck, I barely played CorsixTH either :)
12:35<@Alberth>I still have to reach the level of an epidemic :)
12:35<@Alberth>s/of/with/
12:40<Samu>sent again
12:40<Samu>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6219
12:40<Samu>now it should work
12:40<Samu>or "not work"
12:41<Samu>erm... yeh
12:41<@Alberth>:)
12:41<Samu>display the bug
12:43<andythenorth>FIRS doesn’t like being compiled with python 2
12:43<andythenorth>python 3 *
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12:43<andythenorth>AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'days'
12:44<andythenorth>.. /bin/bash: let: x=5502 days, 0:00:00 + 65536 * 0: syntax error in expression (error token is "days, 0:00:00 + 65536 * 0")
12:45*andythenorth digs
12:45<@Alberth>wrong filename?
12:45<andythenorth>custom_tags.txt
12:45<andythenorth>dunno what that does
12:46<andythenorth>ah found it
12:46<NGC3982>Alberth: I'm just about to try the Origin DOSBOX version out.
12:46<andythenorth>not understanding yet, but it’s a python call in makefile
12:47<andythenorth>python 2 prints
12:47<@Alberth>NGC3982: that's not CorsixTH :p but close enough :)
12:47<Samu>heh, the screenshot was actually "telling me" that the 3rd helicopter was going to another airport, dumb me.
12:47<andythenorth>L142 + 143 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/Makefile#L143
12:48<Samu>so is the bug happening there?
12:48<Samu>I hope it is
12:48*andythenorth bandages this with python2
12:48<andythenorth>but not sure what that call is doing
12:48<andythenorth>Squid et al don’t use it
12:48<@Alberth>computes the number of days since 1-1-2000
12:49<@Alberth>so you have an incrementing number
12:49*andythenorth wonders how the other grfs are doing that
12:49<@Alberth>BB uses findversion.sh for that
12:50<@Alberth>although I don't know how findversion does it :p
12:50<andythenorth>maybe Squid just doesn’t have that feature
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12:51<andythenorth>I kind of wonder about the FIRS makefile, I think it’s been around in various forms since 2009 or so
12:51<andythenorth>through a lot of changes
12:51<andythenorth>wow
12:51<andythenorth>with primed caches, FIRS build time is…
12:51<andythenorth>place your bets?
12:52<andythenorth>previous was 2m 35s after fixing makefile, fairly consistently
12:52<@Alberth>20s
12:52<andythenorth>optimist
12:52<andythenorth>:)
12:52<@Alberth>1m30s
12:52<andythenorth>1m11.536s
12:52<andythenorth>oh that’s for User
12:52<@Alberth>:O
12:52<andythenorth>Real is a bit slower
12:52<andythenorth>1m 18s
12:53<@Alberth>it needs to load python files :)
12:53*andythenorth tests with no cache
12:53<@Alberth>and the big nml file
12:54<andythenorth>frosch123: the recent nml changes cut Squid and Road Hog compile times by maybe 5%
12:54<andythenorth>but FIRS compile time by 50% :o :)
12:54<@Alberth>it does graphics more efficient, but vehicles are too small to benefit much, iirc
12:55<andythenorth>with non-primed caches, User is 2m 11s, and Real is 1m 43s
12:55<frosch123>well, there is still potential left :p
12:55<@Alberth>this user is living in the future :p
12:56<frosch123>actually i am surprised it speeds up firs
12:56<frosch123>i thought it only affects x4 sprites
12:56<@Alberth>make bigger sprites to get more speed :p
12:57<andythenorth>can anyone else replicate my results?
12:57<andythenorth>previous tests were against r2202
12:58<andythenorth>new numbers are from 2267
12:58<@Alberth>r2202 nml, right?
12:58<andythenorth>yes
12:58<andythenorth>I need to push the combined python2/python3 FIRS makefile
12:59<@Alberth>oh dear it needs chameleon and friends
12:59<andythenorth>I’ve pushed makefile change
12:59<andythenorth>wonder if any of the difference is purely down to python3?
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13:01<@Alberth>it's a pyramid thing? I have 3 chameleon packages
13:01<@Alberth>python3 is slower than python2, I think
13:01<@Alberth>hg hasn't switched due to that
13:05<NGC3982>There is something i hate with GitHub
13:06<NGC3982>There is never an actual "Hey, download this by pressing this button"
13:06<andythenorth>reading some presentations, python 3 is on average faster or the same
13:06<NGC3982>Took me like two years of linux before i realized i wasn't supposed to.
13:06<andythenorth>but some things benchmark significantly slower
13:07<andythenorth>Alberth: chameleon a pyramid thing https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Chameleon#downloads
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13:09<andythenorth>maybe I could move my python compile scripts to python 3 also
13:10<@Alberth>your dependencies are broken https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ppl8984o4
13:10<andythenorth>oh that’s interesting
13:10<@Alberth>I run parallel make jobs, and one job needs a file produced by another job
13:11<andythenorth>make -j?
13:11*andythenorth tests
13:11<@Alberth>and a number
13:11<@Alberth>MAKEFLAGS=-j4
13:12<andythenorth>ok so docs need a target
13:12<andythenorth>I left a comment in Makefile.in about why I did it this way
13:12<andythenorth>bad
13:12<andythenorth>I think I should remove preprocess.py, it just makes calls to other python scripts
13:12<andythenorth>makefile should do that
13:13<@Alberth>it's not something you discover easily yourself
13:13<andythenorth>I need to put the kids in the bath soon
13:13<andythenorth>then look at adding a doc target
13:15<@Alberth>k
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13:25<andythenorth>Alberth: does it work with -j1? o_O
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13:26<@Alberth>it should
13:27<@Alberth>yep, it does
13:27<andythenorth>thanks
13:29<andythenorth>in Makefile.in, does it work if you remove ‘$(DOCS)’ from the deps for firs.pnml?
13:29<andythenorth>(works for me)
13:31<andythenorth>hmm
13:31<andythenorth>it shouldn’t though
13:32<@Alberth>indeed, you have too few dependencies, removing more won't fix that :)
13:32<@Alberth>unless you are removing parts of the output
13:33<andythenorth>I think it’s only an accident that it’s working for me
13:33<@Alberth>try -j4 ?
13:33<andythenorth>I just did :)
13:33<@Alberth>ok
13:33<andythenorth>it works, but I don’t understand why
13:34<@Alberth>luck
13:34<andythenorth>unless it happens to be accidentally the correct execution order
13:35<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjbh3op2l 'old' nml
13:35<@Alberth>it's a race condition, no way to say who will win
13:35<@Alberth>is this what you wanted for one nml version?
13:36<andythenorth>yes :)
13:36<@Alberth>trying tip now
13:38<andythenorth>yay, /me found a reliable way to trip up make on missing docs
13:38<andythenorth>good
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13:42<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptsc0jchk
13:43<andythenorth>so for the cases of primed cache, old and tip are about the same for you? o_O
13:44<@Alberth>looks that way
13:45<andythenorth>interesting
13:46<andythenorth>I have very poor performance compared to yours
13:46<andythenorth>CPU? o-O
13:47<@Alberth>model name : AMD A10-6800K APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics
13:47<@Alberth>cpu MHz : 2000.000
13:47<@Alberth>cache size : 2048 KB
13:47<@Alberth>bogomips : 8184.64
13:48<@Alberth>as reported by my OS
13:49<andythenorth>don’t know how to compare that with mine :)
13:49<@Alberth>your's is way prettier than mine :)
13:49<@Alberth>s/'//
13:50<andythenorth>he
13:50<andythenorth>I suspect my first results reflect an older python 2 nml that FIRS was using
13:50<andythenorth>too much string here
13:50<@Alberth>could be
13:53*andythenorth tries calling python doc generating script directly
13:53<andythenorth>there is a doc target in the makefile but I’m scared of it tbh
13:54<andythenorth>it’s doing sed and such
13:58<@Alberth>{{GRF_TITLE}} {{GRF_ID}} {{REPO_REVISION}} {{FILENAME}} <-- seems to replace these strings by the actual values in the documentation
13:59<@Alberth>and some unix / windows line endings stuff
14:01<andythenorth>yeah
14:01<andythenorth>none of that is used in FIRS
14:05<andythenorth>wow I have a lot of realsprites to fix :)
14:05<andythenorth>need to set ANIM flag
14:06<@Alberth>you don't want to give nml the pleasure of finding an animated pixel? :)
14:08<andythenorth>I do love those errors
14:09<@Alberth>ha, the ships move in the vehicle list of a dock, depending on whether they are moving themselves :)
14:10<andythenorth>could probably fix that :P
14:10<andythenorth>probably won't
14:10<@Alberth>the front wave is a few pixels left of the ship, so the ship moves to the right
14:10<@Alberth>it's fun to watch :)
14:15<Supercheese>Nothing to fix, I like that feature
14:15<andythenorth>ho ho, nml adds useful animated pixels check, and I immediately suppress it
14:17<Supercheese>Ho, more strings
14:25<Samu>http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto
14:42<andythenorth>so I need a docs target that depends on a lot of things
14:43<andythenorth>anything changes, docs should change
14:45<andythenorth>target can’t be a wildcard list, that would be meaningless?
14:54<andythenorth>can a target be a dir?
14:55<@Alberth>the problem I told you? that's the other way around, something needs the generated docs before it exists
14:55<andythenorth>it’s the existing docs handling in the makefile
14:55<@Alberth>one solution can be to always build it
14:56<andythenorth>which has only wrong ideas about how to build the docs
14:56<andythenorth>making the docs build correctly, independently, is in theory trivial
14:56<andythenorth>but I don’t understand the existing stuff
14:56<@Alberth>I can have a look tomorrow
14:56<andythenorth>and I need to use a directory as a target :)
14:56<@Alberth>and explain things
14:56<andythenorth>trying now
14:57<@Alberth>$(wildcard dir/*) ?
14:57<andythenorth>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3275449/can-a-makefile-have-a-directory-as-a-target
14:57<andythenorth>suggest it can be done
14:58<@Alberth>but that's about the directory itself, not its contents
14:59<andythenorth>contents are all known by the python script that creates them
15:00<andythenorth>it could even write out a manifest for make, but that’s maybe circular :)
15:00<andythenorth>ok, I had to modify the Makefile
15:00<andythenorth>I think that’s bad, but eh
15:01<andythenorth>oh seems to work :O
15:01*andythenorth might have understood a little more
15:02<andythenorth>turning out to be a productive day :)
15:02<@Alberth>yay :)
15:03*andythenorth pushes
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15:07<nbeee>Hellloo
15:08<nbeee>Who can help us??
15:08<FLHerne>nbeee: With?
15:08<nbeee>wed like to create a server for connected gaming
15:08<nbeee>with openttd
15:08<nbeee>but we cant
15:09<FLHerne>nbeee: Are you trying to run a dedicated (headless) server?
15:09<nbeee>Please tell us how to do it
15:09<FLHerne>Or host from the normal client?
15:09<FLHerne>!ports
15:09<FLHerne>@ports
15:09<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:10<FLHerne>In either case, unless you're on the same LAN, you need to configure your router to forward the above ports to the hosting computer
15:11<nbeee>we are on the same lan
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15:13<FLHerne>nbeee: In that case, what exactly goes wrong?
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15:13<nbeee_>sorry
15:13<FLHerne>What steps do you take, what does/doesn't happen?
15:13<nbeee_>somehow i was logged out
15:13<nbeee_>sooo
15:13<nbeee_>we are on the same lan
15:14<nbeee_>but we cant create a server
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15:17<nbeee_>I could create a server, but its offline....
15:17<nbeee_>nobody can connect it, neither myself
15:18<nbeee_>I tried to create an "internet" server, but I couldnt
15:18<FLHerne>nbeee_: That sounds like it might be a firewall issue
15:18<FLHerne>On the computer, can't be the router if you're on the same LAN
15:19<FLHerne>Are you sure you're trying to connect to the right IP?
15:22<nbeee_>I shut down my firewall now
15:22<nbeee_>We are coneccted to the same IP
15:23<nbeee_>We tried with version 1.4.4, now I am in the version 1.1.4
15:23<nbeee_>two options are different: 1.4.4: advertised Yes or no, 1.1.4 I can choose once LAN or Internet
15:24<nbeee_>Shall we try 1.1.4?
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15:25<FLHerne>nbeee_: Ah, both client and server must be the same version
15:27<nbeee_>sure, we do, we both tried with 1.4.4 first, but didnt work
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15:28<FLHerne>nbeee_: If connecting on the same LAN, client needs to connect to the server's LAN IP
15:28<andythenorth>oops
15:28<FLHerne>Rather than external IP of the router
15:29*andythenorth is now tempted to refactor all of FIRS
15:29<andythenorth>instead of releasing :P
15:29<FLHerne>nbeee_: Or am I misunderstanding "We are coneccted to the same IP"
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15:31<nbeee_>"If connecting on the same LAN, client needs to connect to the server's LAN IP" yes, we did it too
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15:58<Samu>bets airport for heli
15:58<Samu>is commuter, other than helipads
15:59<Samu>just tested
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16:32<andythenorth>Guano mine as source of chemicals, too weird
16:32<andythenorth>in combination with the destination
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17:35<minimoo_>1.5 beta, "Error: Assertion failed at line 141 of /bamboo/src/core/math_func.hpp: min <= max", when trying to start a dedi server instance - known issue or i doing something wrong? ;/
17:35<deniz1a>is there a mod that lets you easily build diagonal train tracks by automatically terraforming the ground?
17:37<FLHerne>deniz1a: ctrl-drag works for terraforming tools
17:37<FLHerne>deniz1a: But otherwise, no
17:38<deniz1a>what does ctrl+drag do?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: we probably need your .cfg
17:38<minimoo_>Eddi|zuHause: well, that could be issue - i used config from 1.44
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>that should not be an issue
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>but we need it, so we know your settings
17:39<deniz1a>ok holding ctrl lets you do it diagonally, thanks
17:40<supermop>good morning
17:41<minimoo_>http://pastebin.com/WXV2z0ca
17:41<deniz1a>and there is no way to build diagonal tunnels and bridges, right?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: no
17:41<deniz1a>ok
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17:44<minimoo_>Eddi|zuHause: I guess i might need to raise a bug report with that
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: that is probably best
17:47<ST2>sidenote: BTPro.nl- #XX - 1.5.0-beta1 TEST was started with a 1.4.4 cfg file and no issues till now - only needed a shutdown to save version in cfg (that's used by server controller software)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: i can reproduce the crash with your .cfg, but not with mine
17:51-!-Jyggalag is now known as Sheogorath
17:51<+glx>oh maybe you can get a call stack then ;)
17:51<minimoo_>it's something in the misc section
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>hm. it doesn't reproduce in gdb :p
17:52<minimoo_>resolution = 1,1
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>ah, there it goes
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17:53<minimoo_>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6220
17:53<minimoo_>i created that btw
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbhhwlank
17:54<minimoo_>so yea, removing the linke resosultion resovles
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: fine. but it shouldn't crash with that line anyway
17:55<minimoo_>nods
17:55<minimoo_>probably trying to set a resolution on a windowsless display or something :P
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: no, it's trying to resize the window to fit in that resolution
17:56<minimoo_>yea, which for a server running in -D there's no window right?
17:56<+glx>doesn't matter :)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's still lots of stubs for window handling, it's just not drawn to a screen
17:56<+glx>internally the game has it's own windows
17:56<minimoo_>ahh
17:57<minimoo_>in any case, I guess I can play and I suspect you guys will probably have fixed in an hour if you are dev's at least :P
17:58<+glx>I won't count on it
17:58<+glx>it's late here
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>the devs that are likely to dig into that are probably asleep
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>but we have enough information to reliably reproduce it, so it should go its way...
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>minimoo_: for the future, you can attach the .cfg as file, you don't need to paste it into the report
18:03<+glx>same for crash log
18:03<minimoo_>both were on a remote server so being lazy, pasting was actually easiest ;p
18:04<minimoo_>but yea, point taken
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>you can attach links to remote files as file
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18:07<krinn>late hi
18:08<krinn>I think TOWN_ACTION_BUY_RIGHTS add an issue to gameplay
18:09<krinn>i've just check, buying rights for town X will disallow anyone to even work with industries the town have authority on
18:10<+glx>seems legit
18:10<krinn>just like human, the problem is when you comes with an AI implementing it, it's not human that need to click on each town/each year
18:10<krinn>but a robot that could buys rights of every town in day
18:11<krinn>and the gameplay gets ruins then (you simply have no town to work with)
18:11<+glx>but another company can still buy exclusive rights
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18:12<krinn>i've just tried, when you brought them, the old rights remains, maybe next year is for you
18:13<krinn>but you will have to do it for every towns, every years
18:14<krinn>(in the meanwhile, all work with that town gets nothing)
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19:04<Wolf01>'night
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19:14<Samu>hi
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20:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have the feeling "deranged brony" [username on tt-f] is a bit redundant
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 25 00:00:43 2015