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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-25

---Logopened Sun Jan 25 00:00:43 2015
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02:39<andythenorth>o/
02:50<@Alberth>hi hi
02:51<@Alberth>I promised to look at something, but I totally forgot what it was
02:51<andythenorth>docs :)
02:51<andythenorth>specifically the existing doc target in the makefile
02:51<andythenorth>I wonder if it’s something where pm just knows the answer though
02:52<andythenorth>I know makefiles have had a lot of changes since 2009, I wonder if FIRS one is just a fossil full of string
02:54<V453000>y000
02:54*andythenorth still has not had coffee
02:54<andythenorth>and it’s nearly the middle of the day
02:55<@Alberth>/me gives andy a cup of coffee
02:55<@Alberth>hi V
02:58<V453000>just trying to make a curved road texture from a straight road texture, isnt as simple asI thought XD
02:58<@Alberth>Makefiles got simplified a lot
02:58<andythenorth>sunshare is really making no sense in forums
02:58*Supercheese agrees
02:59<andythenorth>there’s ‘not-native-English’ and there’s “putting useless stuff in the forums"
02:59*andythenorth can’t think how to not be rude about it though
03:00<@Alberth>he just has absoloutely 0 clue about how things work
03:00<V453000>andy half of the forum makes no sense, that isnt anything new :P
03:01<@Alberth>so he looks at it purely from the outside
03:02<@Alberth>which is a valid way of looking at things
03:04<V453000>hm photoshop warp ftw :)
03:04<@Alberth>beats making pixels by hand :)
03:06*andythenorth rethinks an economy
03:12*andythenorth wonders if Vehicle Factory should accept petrol
03:12<andythenorth>completely not realism, but eh
03:13<@Alberth>a little bit can be exaplained
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03:14<andythenorth>maybe as a boost cargo
03:14<@Alberth>sounds good + fun
03:14<andythenorth>I am trying to make a nice set of cargo flows, but stick to an arbitrary limit on number of industries and cargos
03:14<andythenorth>constraints are fun
03:15<V453000>my factory accepts petrol, but that is because the cars are one use only, once the industry processes them with their limited petrol, they are demolished and thrown away ecologically, alongside with dying workers
03:15<andythenorth>awesome
03:15<andythenorth>pop quiz: what’s better than a > 3 minute compile?
03:16<V453000>30 minute compile
03:16<andythenorth>wrong
03:16<andythenorth>a 1m 20s compile
03:18<andythenorth>V453000: doesn’t that compile drive you fricking insane? :D
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03:19<andythenorth>I make way too many typos in my code for that much compile time
03:21<andythenorth>ho I broke the FIRS makefile
03:21<@Alberth>believe me, suddenly you'll get much more careful :)
03:22<andythenorth>docs are only compiled if I call ‘make docs’ target directly
03:23<andythenorth>maybe docs has to be a dep for firs.grf or whatever?
03:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnzxnoeln ok to remove Makefile.config ?
03:24<andythenorth>if we’re happy to edit the Makefile, yes
03:24<andythenorth>AIUI, the .config was there because the Makefile was not to be touched
03:24<@Alberth>depends on when you want to build docs
03:25<andythenorth>feel free to commit makefile changes btw :)
03:25<@Alberth>hmm
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03:27<@Alberth>an alternative is to take the current Makefiles of the generic newgrf project, and use those
03:33<andythenorth>Alberth: I do wonder if it would be easier to start from a better place :)
03:33<andythenorth>instead of picking out old string
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03:54<V453000>andythenorth: it doesnt exactly :P I have enough stuff to do while I wait for the compile
03:54<V453000>and since rendering whole rawr now takes 20 hours, ... :)
03:55<V453000>I just continue doing stuff when it compile, best thing
03:57<andythenorth>your attention span is better than me
04:07<V453000>xd
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04:10*andythenorth needs a chemical plant
04:10<andythenorth>wonder where I can find sprites for that
04:10<andythenorth>also, it breaks my constraint of 17 industries :|
04:13<andythenorth>chemical plant? file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/industries.html#fertiliser_plant
04:13<andythenorth>oops http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#fertiliser_plant
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04:23<supermop>chemical plant is a pretty nebulous concept
04:23<supermop>could be anything
04:25<supermop>bits of that and the plastic plant could look a good late 20th C one
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04:29<supermop>bits of machine shop with tanks/distilation columns for early 20th c
04:36<andythenorth>breaks my rules
04:37<andythenorth>basic economies have 18 cargos and 17 industries
04:37<andythenorth>this one will have 17 cargos and 18 industries :P
04:37<V453000>... :)
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04:39<Wolf01>hi hi
04:39<@Alberth>moin
04:42<supermop>need to pick abar to go to
04:43<supermop>my iron ore mine in the desert is surrounded by a strip of grass
04:44<andythenorth>yes
04:44<andythenorth>a future FIRS will solve that for you
04:45<supermop>also the quarry in the desert is full of water - which seems like would be more valuable than the stone
04:46<andythenorth>less likely to be solved
04:47<andythenorth>still, it does seem to make the grass grow nearby, eh?
04:48<andythenorth>fruit plantations suck currently
04:48<andythenorth>hmm
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04:59*andythenorth considers Urban economy
04:59<V453000>wtfizdat :D
04:59<andythenorth>coffee, milk -> coffee shop -> latte
04:59<V453000>asdf
05:00<andythenorth>chemicals -> spray paint -> graffiti -> art shop
05:00<V453000>well to be fair, toyland has one of the most interesting cargo systems of the original industries :P
05:00<andythenorth>components -> factory -> apple store -> hipster
05:00<andythenorth>hmm
05:00*andythenorth considers a hipster economy
05:01<andythenorth>except it’s not actually funny to mock hipsters, just boring and obvious :P
05:01<V453000>produce as much stuff that nobody wants as you can? :D
05:01<supermop>off to bar latere
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05:02<andythenorth>so many possibilities
05:02<andythenorth>so little time :P
05:03*andythenorth steps away from chemical plant idea
05:03<andythenorth>makes the chains too long for basic
05:04<V453000>I still think the trading economy chart I made for you would do great :P
05:04<andythenorth>where is it?
05:04<andythenorth>ticket?
05:05<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&start=3460#p1117925
05:06<V453000>can be majorly extended ofc
05:07<andythenorth>V453000: I like that it has only 4 industries
05:07<andythenorth>might be good for really intense wtf cargo amount games
05:07<V453000>it can have 16 :)
05:07<V453000>or whatever number
05:07<andythenorth>oh actually more than 4
05:07<andythenorth>it’s about 12
05:07<V453000>4 are the processing "ports" here
05:07<andythenorth>6 primaries
05:07<andythenorth>2 town
05:08<andythenorth>keep it safe
05:08<andythenorth>not doing it now, but maybe later
05:08<V453000>you can easily add another chain, e.g. 3 primaries which go to $factory, and that $factory goes to one of the ports
05:08<andythenorth>I think it’s better small
05:08<V453000>just trying to show what is an example of good system
05:08<V453000>well, sure it could have a parameter saying how many chains there are :P
05:08<V453000>small, larger, holyshitbig
05:09<andythenorth>silly parameters
05:09<V453000>while still having clear system
05:09<V453000>winwin
05:09<andythenorth>FIRS compile is now so much faster, I can’t spend enough time talking bollocks while I wait :(
05:09<V453000>XD
05:10<andythenorth>hrm
05:10<andythenorth>I dunno
05:10<andythenorth>Vehicle Factory accepting petrol, some logical part of my brain is screaming NO NO NO
05:10<andythenorth>but in game it looks ok
05:11<V453000>will "YETI does it" help as a justification? :D
05:11<andythenorth>umm
05:11<andythenorth>might count against it actually :P
05:11<andythenorth>no it helps
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05:14<andythenorth>meh, in this economy, petrol and chemicals should just one cargo
05:14<andythenorth>petrochemicals
05:14<andythenorth>that is the problem
05:15<andythenorth>petrol is doing nothing useful, it’s just there because the refinery produces it
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>then remove it?
05:16<V453000>call it refined products?
05:18<andythenorth>eh, FIRS compile doesn’t support removing a cargo in an economy for this kind of industry
05:18<andythenorth>V453000: maybe
05:19<V453000>xd
05:20<andythenorth>eh, that means I have bugs :(
05:20<andythenorth>already
05:21<andythenorth>problem with deadlines
05:21<andythenorth>abandoning refactoring in favour of making deadline
05:24<andythenorth>bah
05:25<andythenorth>this chain would work really well: chemicals, oil -> chemical processor -> refined products
05:25<andythenorth>but for reasons
05:25<andythenorth>FIRS implements chemicals as RFPR, which is also refined products
05:25<andythenorth>so label is already claimed
05:26<andythenorth>also, the guano mine is a primary, but I have it producing RFRP
05:26<andythenorth>primary cargo isn’t refined :P
05:26<andythenorth>izz problems
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05:28<andythenorth>guano mine chemicals are NPK-ish (nitrates, phosphates, potash)
05:29<andythenorth>dunno what name covers that other than ‘chemicals'
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>there is no deadline.
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's all in your mind
05:30<andythenorth>eh, last week I was told to release already
05:31<andythenorth>and that I was delaying unnecessarily
05:31<V453000>LOL
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, i said release before you break everything
05:31<andythenorth>oh that ship had sailed :D
05:31<V453000>:D
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>but you've already broken everything
05:31<andythenorth>yeah
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05:33<andythenorth>so is there a composite term covering NPK that is dug out of the ground?
05:34<andythenorth>or shall I just call it Nitrates?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't know what you're trying to model
05:35<andythenorth>Guano Mine
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>and even if i did, i don't know the english name of chemicals
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the "big picture"
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>why do you need to specialize it instead of just calling it "chemicals"?
05:36<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano#Composition
05:36<andythenorth>because chemicals -> chemical processor -> chemicals is odd
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>then obviously a "guano mine" would produce "guano"
05:39<andythenorth>this is a good conclusion
05:43<b_jonas>andythenorth: would "fertilizer" be a good name?
05:44<andythenorth>not for processing
05:44<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/RAWR/ROADZ1.png :D wip
05:44<b_jonas>ok
05:44<andythenorth>fertiliser -> refined products
05:44<andythenorth>bit odd :)
05:48<andythenorth>I should copout and call it a phosphate mine
05:48<andythenorth>then it can be used in Canada and such also
05:51<andythenorth>translators going to hate me :D
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05:55<andythenorth>hmm
05:55<andythenorth>game already has potash
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05:59<andythenorth>Saltpeter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter
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06:02<andythenorth>sounds antiquated :)
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06:05<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_saltpeter_works_in_Tarapacá_and_Antofagasta
06:07<andythenorth>I should probably call it Nitrates though, eh :(
06:07<andythenorth>for dumbing-down reasons
06:12<@Alberth>I think I translated it as such already :)
06:13<andythenorth>Saltpeter is more intriguing
06:13<andythenorth>sounds like a Victorian novel
06:14*andythenorth wonders how references like ‘Victorian’ work for non-English people
06:20<@Alberth>British empire ?
06:20<andythenorth>yup
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06:25<@peter1138>Brrr, coldded
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06:28<andythenorth>don’t go outside
06:28<andythenorth>ever
06:31<Midnight101>hes obviously just playing the snow climate
06:32<andythenorth>V453000: nice lego roads you’ve made
06:32<andythenorth>http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100828160539/lego/images/9/93/6321-Road_Plates,_Curved.jpg
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06:38<@peter1138>It's cold indoors...
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:38<V453000>lego roads :D
06:39<@peter1138>V453000, you can't include the one stop-line...
06:39<@peter1138>er... *white* not one...
06:39<V453000>what why not
06:39<@peter1138>Drive side is changable.
06:39<V453000>oh, good point
06:39<V453000>thanks
06:39<V453000>didnt realize that
06:39<V453000>LEFT IS WRONG THOUGH
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06:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, "LEFT IS RIGHT" would be terrible :p
06:52<Midnight101>TTD in the temperate climate is set in the UK, where driving on the left is the correct way. for good reason
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>then how come the original game offered "drive on right" since the beginning?
06:54<Midnight101>for the same reason it offered different currencies :P
06:54<Midnight101>but still defaulted to GBP
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>it also offered different town name sets
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>no. it defaulted to DM :p
06:55<krinn>funny: i've been told driving to left was because of military holding swords on their right and it prevent accident when they were passing by next to pedestrian
06:55<Midnight101>Chris Sawyer was British, thats why :P
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, almost nothing in the game, except for the original vehicle names, suggests that the game is "set in the UK"
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>and even that was gone when the obfuscated vehicle names were introduced
06:58<V453000>I REMOVED THE STOP LINES ALREADY QUIT ARGUING
06:58<V453000>:PPP
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR STOP LINES
06:59<V453000>OH
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>i think some road sets include stop signs, but they probably check the driving side with action7/9
06:59<V453000>idk, but cba to do that
06:59<V453000>either right or nothing :P
07:01<Midnight101>https://wiki.openttd.org/Climates#Temperate
07:01<Midnight101>:P
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>IT'S IN THE WIKI!! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!
07:03<Midnight101>"I disagree, therefore i must be right"
07:04<V453000>toyland is completely mature not just childs world
07:04<frosch123>V453000: you can provide graphics for both left and right
07:04<frosch123>grfs can check for roaddriving side, and select graphics
07:04<@Alberth>just add them both :)
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: somewhere inbetween LEGO and MLP?
07:04<frosch123>same issue for signal side
07:05<V453000>I know frosch123, Eddi said that :)
07:05<V453000>MLP is utter horseshit
07:05<Midnight101>Ponyshit
07:05<V453000>LEGO is good stuff as andythenorth and other brick nerds prove
07:05<frosch123>what? eddi said something that makes sense?
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>more often than not.
07:07<V453000>frog is left
07:07<supermop>too often
07:07<supermop>goodnight
07:15<@peter1138>frosch123, he's doing a baseset though, I thought.
07:16<frosch123>yes, the extra grf also needs to check signalside to provide semaphore graphics
07:16<frosch123>ogfx extra checks dozen of settings to provide different graphics :p
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>action7/9 is static-safe, so can be used in baseset
07:28<@peter1138>Oh right, forgot there was a mandatory newgrf in basesets :p
07:30<V453000>hm :)
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08:25<andythenorth>nitrates, cargo unit
08:25<andythenorth>tons, litres?
08:26<andythenorth>I think they’re typically mineral powder
08:26<andythenorth>not liquid
08:26<V453000>what the fuck is that even XD
08:27<frosch123>horsepee
08:28<andythenorth>http://gosouthamerica.about.com/library/blChihistpix1j.htm
08:28<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=515774&nseq=0
08:29<V453000>._.
08:29<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=465784&nseq=19
08:29<V453000>cute pictures but how does that illustrate a cargo? :D
08:30<andythenorth>dunno
08:30<frosch123>well, what's your nitrate source?
08:30<frosch123>if it's a mine -> raw tons
08:30<frosch123>if it's a farm -> liquid litres
08:31<andythenorth>it’s a mine
08:31<andythenorth>tons
08:31<frosch123>anyway, i prefer the name "fertilizer"
08:31<andythenorth>http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/358679/350wm/T8500132-Maria_Elena_Nitrate_Mine,_Chile-SPL.jpg
08:31<frosch123>that's how railroad tycoon called it
08:33<andythenorth>neat industry http://www.nileguide.com/blog/files/2011/06/santa-laura-nitrate-mine-3.jpg
08:35<andythenorth>frosch123: so what other nmlc speed ups do you have in your back pocket? o_O
08:38<frosch123>1) reading of sprite cache files, actually doing it just now
08:38<frosch123>2) speed up of "tile compression" by factor 2
08:38<frosch123>3) multi-threaded encoding
08:38<andythenorth>great :)
08:38<frosch123>4) parser-cache, but likely not worth it in bigger picture
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08:39<frosch123>other stuff is designed, but not even experimentally coded
08:39<V453000>:>
08:40<V453000>me is looking forward
08:42<andythenorth>< 1 min FIRS, I’d be very happy
08:43<frosch123>well, all grfs are different :p most near-future benefits are for grfs with big and many real sprites
08:43<frosch123>grfs with more code than sprites have to wait :)
08:44<andythenorth>I can improve the FIRS code to get a 20s compile of a subset of industries
08:44<andythenorth>between that, and a 1 min full-grf compile, it’s good
08:49<V453000>:>
08:49<V453000>MOAR PICTURZ
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09:03<deniz1a>why is it beneficial to transport your cargo far away than to bring it to the closest destination?
09:03<deniz1a>that's counterintuitive, idn't it?
09:04<deniz1a>let's say you have a train full of coal ready to go and you have two power stations linked with tracks
09:04<frosch123>no, your car is also more efficient on long routes
09:04<+michi_cc>Only if you believe you are buying and selling cargo, but your aren't. You're payed for the transport, not the goods.
09:05<frosch123>you are paid for average cargo speed
09:05<deniz1a>you should bring it to the closer one and get more profit
09:05<deniz1a>ok
09:05<frosch123>and the average speed is better on longer routes, since loading has less impact
09:05<deniz1a>but why would the seller of that cargo pay you more to transport it farther away than is necessary*
09:06<frosch123>because they ordered it
09:06<frosch123>as michi said, they do not buy the coal from you
09:06<deniz1a>but the cargo has no specific destination? it just has to be dumped at a power station, doesnt matter which one
09:06<deniz1a>i know but the seller of the coal pays you for transport
09:07<frosch123>well, play with cargo distribution/destinattions then
09:07<frosch123>then you won't get anything to transport
09:07<deniz1a>then each cargo has a specific destination?
09:08<frosch123>there are patches where you get only 1% of cargo to transport, if your network does not offer enough/sutiable connections
09:08<Midnight101>denizla, if you can only transport your goods to a place, you have to sell your goods to that place
09:09<deniz1a>but it is beneficial to bring your cargo as far as possible once you have it, isn't it?
09:09<frosch123>no
09:09<frosch123>your task is to transport cargo as fast as possible
09:10<frosch123>"fast" as in "distance per time"
09:10<deniz1a>ok but let's say you have the same train
09:10<deniz1a>one time you bring the same cargo to a close destination and then to a far away one
09:11<frosch123>if loading is instant, then both trains get about the same
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09:12<frosch123>"same" as in "same per year"
09:12<deniz1a>ok
09:12<frosch123>of course the far-distance one makes more per trip, but the short-distance one makes more trips per year
09:12<Midnight101>actually you get paid a specific amount per 20 squares covered
09:12<Midnight101>this amount decreases over time from loading to unloading\
09:15<Midnight101>and different goods are worth more depending on how long you take to transport them
09:15<deniz1a>ok. is there a way to make each cargo have a specific destination?
09:15<deniz1a>so you have to take it to a specific power station for example and not just any one
09:16<frosch123>search for "cargo destinations"
09:16<frosch123>you will find some ancient forum topics
09:16<frosch123>don't confuse it with "cargo distribution" though
09:16-!-liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit []
09:17<deniz1a>ok thanks
09:17<Midnight101>denizla, you could make it your own personal challenge to deliver only to the closest receiving potential destination
09:34<deniz1a>can you see how long a train took to deliver its last cargo? or the average delivery time?
09:34<deniz1a>average loading time would also be nice
09:39<frosch123>if you have 1.5 then cargodist will automatically record a timetable
09:41<deniz1a>oh ok. i'll try that. is it stable?
09:41<frosch123>it's beta
09:45<deniz1a>where can I find the changelog for 1.5 beta?
09:45<deniz1a>http://hu.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/releases/1.5.0-beta1/changelog.txt is empty
09:45<frosch123>there is a link in the newspost
09:45<frosch123>or you can look on the wiki
09:48-!-psusi [~psusi@72-238-77-169.res.bhn.net] has joined #openttd
09:49<psusi>so I have set up a two track one way loop with two trains circling to transport coal from the mine to a power plant... I'm constantly picking up all of the coal at the station, but the mine complains that I'm only transporting 48% of its output and its max output drops.. wtf?
09:49<psusi>how am I supposed to transport all of their output if they won't give it to me?
09:49<deniz1a>yeah it was right on the main page
09:50<+michi_cc>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
09:54<psusi>wait, so the station loses rating if the trains pull in too fast?
09:56<andythenorth>just use FIRS instead
09:56<andythenorth>it has a stupid 100% station rating option
09:56<andythenorth>problem goes away
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09:58<psusi>I'm confused... it looks like it isn't possible to get more than 67% station rating, at least if you don't count the temporary boost from advertising
09:58<frosch123>you need a faster engine
09:59<frosch123>you get 100% if you build a statue and your trani does 200 km/h, and there is always a train loading
10:00<frosch123>67% is the normal rating if you have no statue
10:00<andythenorth>so use maglev
10:00<andythenorth>and build a station
10:00<andythenorth>statue *
10:00<psusi>ahh... and how much do you need to take the full output of the industry?
10:01<frosch123>100%
10:01<psusi>oh shite
10:01<frosch123>you don't get 100% in early game without cheating :)
10:01<psusi>so... early in the game, before you get the high speed fancy trains... it's impossible to grow an industry without constantly doing advertising campeigns?
10:02<frosch123>advertising does not work particulary well for industries
10:02<frosch123>it only affects stations near the town center, so usually not industries
10:02<andythenorth>eh, why am I allocating IDs :P
10:02<psusi>well it seems to be the only way to boost the station rating other than building a statue
10:02<andythenorth>code should manage IDs for me
10:02<andythenorth>that has to change
10:03<andythenorth>I could just let nml do it?
10:03<andythenorth>is nml trustworthy?
10:03<frosch123>andythenorth: savegame compatibility?
10:03<psusi>well yea, so if the industry is far from a town center, then it is impossible to get the station rating high enough to transport enough cargo to make the industry grow? that seems fscked up
10:03<frosch123>andythenorth: if yuo assign them automatically, they change when reordering code
10:03<andythenorth>frosch123: yeah. But it’s flawed thinking by me :) If an industry or cargo is added/changed/removed, assume savgame is broken
10:04<andythenorth>my assumption was that nml assigns them on something like parse order
10:04<andythenorth>or alphabetised
10:04<frosch123>i think it does on parse order
10:04<andythenorth>I think I might manage my own locally
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10:05<frosch123>but cargos are tricky in any case, due to pax/mail magic
10:05<andythenorth>assuming python imports can be trusted to be deteministic for any given order, I can maintain order as much as I need
10:05<andythenorth>dunno if that holds though
10:05<andythenorth>ah actually nml has no idea about FIRS economies, so I’ll manage IDs in any case
10:06<frosch123>manually assigned ids also make it easier for add-on grfs :)
10:06<andythenorth>yeah, they are going to have a sad time :)
10:06<frosch123>and for try-hard game scripts
10:06<andythenorth>IDs are already overlapping
10:06<andythenorth>unless the GS also checks economy parameter, and maintains a mapping, it’s out of luck :)
10:07<frosch123>there are gs with 32 settings to configure behaviour for cargo 0 to 31
10:07<frosch123>they then refer to the industry readme to figure out what ids are which
10:07<andythenorth>that is fun
10:08<andythenorth>bah, I’ve broken the online docs
10:08<andythenorth>Jenkins should be whining at me
10:11-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
10:18*andythenorth wonders about an industry that can build on land or at sea
10:18<andythenorth>can’t remember if build on water is an XOR or just a flag permitting
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>just have different layouts?
10:19<V453000>=== quarry/dredging site? :D
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>"build on water" is per industrytile, not per industry
10:19<andythenorth>V453000: you think that should just be one type?
10:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
10:20-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:b0ad:1f72:c407:d69b] has quit [Quit: .]
10:28<__ln__>the dutch ... http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/554096/Adolf-Hitler-Norfolk-second-world-war
10:30<andythenorth>not all the Dutch
10:32<andythenorth>Alberth: got any uncommitted changes to FIRS makefile? o_O
10:32<@Alberth>no
10:33<@Alberth>removing the makefile.config didn't look like a good idea any more
10:33<@Alberth>and I am not sure how to move on
10:34<@planetmaker>o/
10:34<@Alberth>hihi
10:34<@planetmaker>what's your issue with the Makefile?
10:34<@planetmaker>or the aim of changes?
10:35-!-KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
10:35<andythenorth>(1) is the FIRS makefile in a state you’d consider good, or is it aging? (2) making some changes to fix stupid I have done
10:35<@planetmaker>possibly not 100% up to date, but as long as it does its job it's good enough. So: what needs fixing?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>those are both unhelpful answers
10:37<andythenorth>if I just state what I’m trying to do, we might get bogged down in that before establishing whether it’s wise :)
10:37<andythenorth>my current ‘problem’ is that I need to make docs build, for which there is code I have written, and code that exists, and the two need refactoring to be one
10:38<@planetmaker>you mean docs are not properly built?
10:38<andythenorth>also I am trying to do this without editing Makefile because my understanding is I should never touch Makefile, but that might be bogus
10:38<@planetmaker>by make docs?
10:38<andythenorth>make doc is the pre-existing target in makefile
10:39<andythenorth>that doesn’t build my docs
10:39<@planetmaker>ok
10:39<andythenorth>to make it build my docs I can probably do it via Makefile.in
10:39<andythenorth>or Makefile.config
10:39<andythenorth>but I’m not sure
10:39<@planetmaker>depends a bit on how old the Makefile is :D
10:40<andythenorth>some
10:41<andythenorth>last major rework looks like 2012 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/changes/Makefile
10:41<@planetmaker>looks new enough
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>makefile.config should be for everybody's local checkout, makefile.in (or _in) for the project's special code
10:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, Makefile.local for local config. Makefile.config for the project-specific stuff when using the standard NewGRF Makefile
10:42<@planetmaker>Makefile.in to make amendments to the rules
10:42<andythenorth>and is Makefile.in append or replace for existing rules?
10:42<@Alberth>you know autotools use *.in as source for *, right?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know who came up with .in
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>it always felt out of place
10:43<andythenorth>I’ve seen it used in projects 100% unrelated to ours :)
10:43<andythenorth>for exact same purpose
10:43<@Alberth>yes, all autotools projects :p
10:44<@Alberth>and given that autotools is kind of standard at Unix, that's a lot of projects
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, *.in as input for * is also used in OpenTTD, but the Makefile.in from the makefile never had that semantics
10:45<@planetmaker>the Makefile is my crime ;)
10:46<@planetmaker>but yes, I might have spotted it other places and gone from there
10:46<@planetmaker>anyhow: Makefile.in can be used as both. But Makefile rules usually works as replacement
10:46<@Alberth>for newgrf projects having a Makefile is probably a lot better than having to deal with autotools
10:47<@planetmaker>amend is difficult as you then cannot control the order of execution of the parts which get amended which usually is very troublesome
10:47-!-pxr [~Mychomize@46-236-110-230.customer.t3.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:47<andythenorth>in this case I need replace
10:48<andythenorth>the rules for building docs make assumptions that hold elsewhere, but not in FIRS
10:49<andythenorth>I wasn’t sure how that would work, so I have dumped a ‘docs’ target into Makefile.in
10:49<psusi>sigh... so I had a train bring passengers up to a station that doesn't accept them and forced them to unload... planning on linking a bus station to transfer them to... the train dropped them off and picked them right back up to return them to their point of origin
10:49<andythenorth>rather than the standard ‘doc'
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>psusi: you should use "transfer and no loading"
10:50<psusi>but then won't it refuse to pick up passengers heading the other way?
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that won't work
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>if you want that to work, you need to enable cargo distribution
10:51<psusi>ummm....
10:51<psusi>what's that?
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>so people actually have a sense of where they want to go
10:51<@planetmaker>brb ... food
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's a setting, if you use 1.4 or newer
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>psusi: cargodist makes people have an opinion on where they want to go, rather than just getting off at the next station. so they will stay in the train for more than one station, or use multiple trains/busses to get to their destination
10:55<andythenorth>somewhat of an opinion
10:55*andythenorth wonders when next hop is actually calculated
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: afaik, on unloading, the cargo packet will get a next hop
10:57<andythenorth>mostly I find it helps in a game to not think how cdist works, but rather how it behaves
10:57<andythenorth>trying to manage it is fruitless, but building more vehicles is easy
10:58<andythenorth>also accept that pax stations will never clear
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's just like in real life. building more roads will not lead to less traffic jam. just to more traffic
11:01<andythenorth>ha ha Iron Horse gives you hopper cars for Beans
11:01*andythenorth testing new stuff
11:03<andythenorth>ho, Sugar Refinery processes to produces more output than amount input
11:03<andythenorth>shall I leave that bug as a feature? o_O
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you told it beans were bulk...
11:04<andythenorth>yup
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11:21<andythenorth>herp, maybe no chemicals from sugar refinery in this economy
11:21<andythenorth>adding more string to the production code, meh
11:44<andythenorth>oh a free industry slot
12:11<andythenorth>so can someone update newgrf wiki cargo labels page for me? Needs “BEAN” and “NITR” adding
12:11<andythenorth>BEAN is Beans, NITR is Nitrate
12:11<andythenorth>can’t log in
12:12<andythenorth>I hardened my passwords for tt-forums last year, does the wiki use an auth provider, or does it copy hashes?
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12:19*Eddi|zuHause vaguely remembers something about LDAP
12:20<frosch123>andythenorth: what cargo classes?
12:21<andythenorth>Beans: bulk
12:21<andythenorth>Nitrates: Bulk
12:21<andythenorth>if anyone wants to chip in with suggestions for classes, now is the time
12:22<andythenorth>nitrates: covered?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>covered,powdered
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>beans: piece,bulk
12:23<frosch123>piece :p
12:23<frosch123>10k pieces of beans
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, bags :)
12:25<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/index.php?title=CargoTypes&diff=3610&oldid=3595 <- well, both BULK only for now
12:25<andythenorth>countable beans
12:25<frosch123>don't see how piece+bulk makes sense, i don't see any of the existing cargos do that
12:25<frosch123>though there are some with +liquid
12:26<frosch123>oh, FERT and FIRC are
12:26<frosch123>ECS has fertiliser
12:27<andythenorth>rationale for adding piece is beans in vans
12:27<andythenorth>but eh
12:28<andythenorth>fruit is piece, because crates
12:28<andythenorth>anyway frosch123 thanks :)
12:29<frosch123>i think we didn't have a cargo class discusssion for about a year :p
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's the proof: openttd is dieing
12:30<andythenorth>or we solved it :(
12:30<andythenorth>sometimes we do that
12:33<frosch123>well, we passed the tipping point of ttd
12:34<frosch123>maybe already the tipping point of ttdp?
12:34<andythenorth>searching for nitrate trucks, turns out nitrates are explosive
12:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: The Soham disaster proved that, didn't it?
12:35<FLHerne>No, it didn't
12:35<andythenorth>frosch123: I think we’re past a dev tipping point
12:35<andythenorth>but by no means a player tipping point
12:35<andythenorth>I think dev tipping point is probably ~2 years back
12:36<andythenorth>all the big interesting problems are gone
12:36<andythenorth>and we lost a bunch of people to jobs and real life
12:37<andythenorth>T*rkhen, yex*, and such
12:38-!-Biolunar_ [Biolunar@blfd-5d822989.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Yo.]
12:39<andythenorth>but eh, FIRS Ain’t Dead, it turns out
12:39<andythenorth>mostly because Busy Bee
12:49<frosch123>hmm, someone knows the exact release date of ttd?
12:49<frosch123>it gets 20 somewhen this year
12:50<andythenorth>I can’t find a date on google
12:51<frosch123>i assume noone has an hold sales receipt? :p
12:53*andythenorth considers buying this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transport-Tycoon-Replay-Deluxe-PC/dp/B00005LDJB/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422208369&sr=8-1&keywords=transport+tycoon+deluxe
12:55<frosch123>the listed features are hillarious :)
12:55<frosch123>"Company buy outs" <- how is that important?
12:57<andythenorth>Feature, not Benefit :)
12:57<andythenorth>box ticking
12:58-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:1c04:8c55:7036:5e8e] has joined #openttd
13:00<frosch123>anyway, ottd is only 11, ttdp was 12 when it was solid dead, so we have 1 year left to die :)
13:01<andythenorth>eh
13:01<andythenorth>well
13:01<andythenorth>better get working on it :P
13:01<frosch123>ttdp was 8 when it effectively died, no idea what ottd did in 2012
13:01<NGC3982>ttdp?
13:01<andythenorth>cba to look in svn logs
13:01<frosch123>i think 2012 was grf8 and game scripts, right? so one of the best?
13:02<andythenorth>"GS will be the death of ottd"
13:02<@planetmaker>1.2 was grf v8
13:02<andythenorth>no ttdp, no competition
13:02<andythenorth>no competition, no impetus to compete? o_O
13:04<andythenorth>also, fewer commits, less discussion
13:04<andythenorth>less discussion, less inspiration to patch
13:04<andythenorth>and less kudos for those who patch
13:06<andythenorth>but eh, we also have a lot of other tools and ecosystem, and that’s not dying yet
13:07<Rubidium>I reckon the major problem is that OpenTTD is currently hindered enormously by choices made long ago that can't be changed without major effects
13:08<Rubidium>but... then those choices make it OpenTTD
13:08<andythenorth>name some? o_O
13:08<andythenorth>I don’t feel hindered particularly
13:09<frosch123>vehicle lengths on diagonals?
13:09<V453000>vehicle can only move by 1/16th of a tile at a time :(
13:09<NGC3982>Does anyone really feel the game has major problems? The consensus among me and my non-developer friends is that the game is one of the most well worked trough.
13:09<Rubidium>vehicle clipping due to completely wrong bounding boxes
13:09<NGC3982>Ever.
13:09<andythenorth>oh yeah
13:09<andythenorth>actually
13:10<andythenorth>the mess around diagonals makes me no longer want to draw vehicles
13:10<Wolf01>no map rotation and fully termaformable terrain...
13:10<andythenorth>now I know that whatever I do is wrong :|
13:10<andythenorth>I ask how long a \ view should be and the answers suck
13:10<V453000>andythenorth: render them :>
13:10<andythenorth>:P
13:10<andythenorth>V453000: that’s not a solution
13:10<V453000>it is
13:10<V453000>once the openttd feature is fixed, you can re-render just with changing one value
13:11<andythenorth>ha
13:11<andythenorth>ok good argument
13:11<andythenorth>but rendering sucks
13:11<V453000>nope :)
13:11<V453000>full class of wagons 3 days vs 3 weeks :P ding
13:11<andythenorth>yeah but I have to re-learn CGI
13:11<andythenorth>I am over 30, I can’t learn anything
13:12<V453000>not like it is that complicated
13:12<andythenorth>also, do you really think I could put up with the compile times?
13:12<V453000>you dont really need anything super elaborate to make openttd stuff
13:12<V453000>yes :>
13:12<V453000>attention span ++
13:12<Rubidium>furthermore many peculiarities w.r.t. NewGRFs and multiplayer
13:13<V453000>I think with increasing amount of 32bpp/EZ newGRFs it will come more clear that the sprites are hell in filesize for such zooms etc
13:13<V453000>just my 3 newGRFs will have like 500MB soon
13:13<V453000>including RAWR as a newgrf for now
13:14<andythenorth>svg renderer?
13:14<andythenorth>:P
13:14<V453000>.. :)
13:14<andythenorth>I do wonder if 32bpp is what will kill ottd
13:14<V453000>no is the answer :)
13:14<NGC3982>I notice that all players connected to my servers are at the moment spectators. min_active_clients is 1. Is pause-on-spectate configurable?
13:14<andythenorth>really?
13:14<V453000>sure, why would it
13:14<Rubidium>oh... palette animation is such a fun feature as well ;)
13:14<V453000>it isnt mandatory
13:15<andythenorth>I think it will end up pushing the pixel art to the same place TTDP has gone
13:15<V453000>XD yes Rubi
13:15<andythenorth>increasingly marginalised
13:15<andythenorth>the people doing it will be pushed out
13:15<V453000>I dont think so andythenorth, at all
13:15<andythenorth>I do, it’s a people thing, not an art thing
13:15<V453000>1. 3D just requires a lot of experience and effort to even get it started
13:15<V453000>2. pixel drawing is simple for everybody, even if it looks bad, it has results
13:15<V453000>3. there is a lot of people who prefer the pixely look
13:16<andythenorth>yeah, but pixels will be seen as wrong and old-fashioned
13:16<andythenorth>and those doing it will be seen as weird and cranky
13:16<V453000>oldfashioned yes but that does not mean wrong
13:16<andythenorth>a bit like we see some of the people who are associated mostly with TTDP
13:16<V453000>oldfashioned can be nice
13:16<NGC3982>Pixels seems very hip at the moment?
13:16<V453000>I think the only question is what is done better, the pure quality
13:16<andythenorth>nobody will bother drawing bad pixels, because they’re not rendering
13:16<V453000>if pixel art is done well, then it will be great
13:17<andythenorth>yeah but nobody will
13:17<V453000>if 3D is done very well, then it will be used
13:17<V453000>they will, you have whole plethora of bad pixel art
13:17<andythenorth>this is a prediction, not an argument :)
13:17<V453000>sure
13:17<andythenorth>we could put €25 on it
13:17<andythenorth>I’d give it 7 years
13:17<V453000>XD
13:17<V453000>so what exactly do you say? :D
13:18<andythenorth>2 things
13:18<V453000>OpenTTD will die in 7 years with 32bpp on its tombstone? :P
13:18<frosch123>V453000: andy is correct. the amount of people on reddit (i.e. the younger ones) who prefer zbase just because it has zoom-in is hillarious
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>... i have a feeling computers get slower over time...
13:18<andythenorth>(1) we’ll end roughly where simutrans is, with a mess of paks
13:18<V453000>frosch123: hm :)
13:18<andythenorth>and no coherent art
13:18<andythenorth>(2) nobody will want to do pixels, but very few people will be able to work with rendered art well
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>i started this laptop after half a year, and it takes half an hour to boot, and i'm not even done clicking through a flash player update
13:18<V453000> andy that is where we are already and where we have been ever since opengfx started to exist
13:19<andythenorth>(3) we’ll be here in 7 years hoping Bad Brett ships something, and saves the game
13:19<V453000>XD
13:19<V453000>I dont think BB will release stuff in the next 7 years
13:19<andythenorth>we’ll increasingly hope he does
13:19<andythenorth>because it’s the last way out of what will seem a mess
13:19<Rubidium>will P1SIM be done by then?
13:20<V453000>perhaps I will stop being bad at 3D and save it instead :P
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>will DBSet 0.9 be done by then?
13:20<andythenorth>nearly
13:20<andythenorth>if you read the German forums enough
13:20<V453000>not on bananas though
13:20<andythenorth>there will be a new version of FIRS by then as well
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>... also, there is a windows update running every time i start the computer, but it always fails, and starts again next time...
13:21<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: make me wonders whether Microsoft gets slower over time...
13:22<frosch123>good point, does ms still exist in 7 years?
13:22<Rubidium>... I remember the good old days that you would get 400 kBps downloads from Microsoft, now you're happy when they reach 300 kBps
13:22<V453000>am going to confirm andythenorths predictions with a 8,3% beer =D
13:22<frosch123>V453000: 8.3% beer, 91.7% water? bah :p
13:23<andythenorth>wine is stronger
13:23<V453000>:)
13:23<andythenorth>ms exists in 7 years :P
13:23<Rubidium>frosch123: what about nitrogen instead of water?
13:23<andythenorth>they probably have maintenance contracts on IE 7 for that long :P
13:23<Rubidium>makes it pretty foamy I'd reckon
13:23*andythenorth waits for IE 7 to get out of his life
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: you're breathing 70% nitrogen. does nothing at all.
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you're rising from large depths)
13:25<andythenorth>also
13:25<andythenorth>we can’t please the reddit crowd
13:25<andythenorth>nor can we please the foamers
13:25<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but 8.3% beer + 91.7% nitrogen properly mixed in a (beer) glass will be quite foamy, wouldn't it be?
13:25<andythenorth>but we do please my 5 year old
13:26<andythenorth>who is also right now sitting playing Worms on iPad, which is what? 15 years old? 20?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'd rather say you get a bottom half 8.3% alcohol and a top half 91.7% nitrogen rather quickly
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the ipad or the kid? :p
13:27<frosch123>andythenorth: the best one (worms 2) is from 1997
13:27<andythenorth>this is worms armageddon
13:27<andythenorth>looks roughly like the one I remember
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyone have a clue how i get this broken update out of my system?
13:28<andythenorth>backups
13:28<frosch123>only use vms
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>i played a bit of worms 3D on some lan partys
13:29<FLHerne>andythenorth: And we're all here on IRC, which is older than the Web, and still far better than all other messaging 'apps' LD
13:29<andythenorth>snapshot all the things, in virtualbox
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>this laptop doesn't do virtualization
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>this runs windows vista, i think.
13:33*andythenorth should have put potash into Arctic Basic, not Iron Ore
13:33<andythenorth>still, could go back and forth forever on this eh?
13:35<frosch123>ah, i see, armageddon fixed the mortar cheat, but also removed all the cusomisation options
13:35<andythenorth>dunno what this iOS version does
13:35<andythenorth>quite playable though
13:35<andythenorth>apart from achingly slow load times, nothing I’d much change
13:35<andythenorth>dunno why it’s *so* slow
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so according to the logs, the constantly failing update is "Microsoft .NET Framework 4.5.1 for Windows Vista (KB2858725)"
13:36<andythenorth>is there some manifest where you can delete that entry?H
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know anything about how windows works anymore...
13:40<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that one sounds vaguely familiar to me
13:41<Rubidium>though on Windows 7... but I have no idea how I actually fixed the issue
13:42<Rubidium>it definitely took a lot of time to figure out, but was mostly done by google + trying everything that seems reasonable
13:42<Rubidium>i.e. everything that doesn't require installing something that isn't made by Microsoft
13:43-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
13:44<Samu>hi
13:44<Samu>is bukkit a bot?
13:44<Samu>i was on the wrong channel
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm currently reading http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/2721187
13:52<+michi_cc>Google the error number (80....) which you should get?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>there is no error number
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>it just takes forever
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>uses lots of memory
13:59<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I remember that booting went much faster without internet connectivity (though not 100% sure it was with the same patch)
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14:03<deniz1a>hello. i have a question here: http://i.imgur.com/pBLgoZi.png can anyone help?
14:03<Progman>deniz1a: thats right, because the whole block is occupied by trains in the station
14:04<Progman>its a "huge" junction, which even reach in the station, and when there is a train in it its blocked
14:04<deniz1a>but it doesnt do that on the other station where it's the same
14:05<Progman>not by the path signal, but by the normal signals
14:05<Progman>then the other station is designed differently
14:06<deniz1a>no it's the same
14:06<Progman>please show a screenshot of that other station
14:09<deniz1a>here's the other station: http://i.imgur.com/uz4pqQJ.png
14:10<Progman>its the same
14:10<@planetmaker>deniz1a, yes, the block is then governed by the *block* signal on the return track
14:10<@planetmaker>use a path signal there, too, and you'll be fine
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: that's green because there are no trains in the station
14:10<Progman>put a train in the station and the signal gets red
14:11<@planetmaker>or simply only use path signals
14:11<deniz1a>but why is the station part of that signal block?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: because "block" is anything that is between two signals
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: even if a train cannot go that way
14:12<deniz1a>yeah you're right when the train leaves the station light turns green
14:12<deniz1a>so a block is defined by the position on the map and not by the track layout?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>any connected set of tracks counts as a block
14:14<deniz1a>ok
14:15<andythenorth>how much food for 8t of beans?
14:15<andythenorth>6t?
14:15<+michi_cc>Trains might not be able to switch tracks on a diagonal X, but they can still crash into each other, which is why connected does not mean "can move from A to B".
14:15<andythenorth>also fruit
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14:17<@planetmaker>6/8 production rate sounds alright, I think
14:18<andythenorth>yeah, matches existing similar industries
14:19<@planetmaker>yup :)
14:19<@planetmaker>may I be so lazy to ask where nitrate and beans come from and go to?
14:19-!-gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3209.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:28<andythenorth>if I hadn’t broken the makefile, I’d reward your laziness with a link to the docs
14:28<andythenorth>Nitrate Mine -> Nitrates -> Chemical Works
14:28<andythenorth>Arable Farms -> Beans -> Food Processing Plant
14:37<@planetmaker>ah. nice
14:37<andythenorth>it’s so much more fun making 4 smaller economies than 1 giant one :P
14:38<@planetmaker>yup :)
14:39<@planetmaker>would I have permission to mess with makefile?
14:40<andythenorth>absolutely
14:40<andythenorth>I might want to read the diff, for learning
14:40<@planetmaker>he... make: *** No rule to make target `graphics_sources/aluminium', needed by `firs.nml'. Stop.
14:40<V453000>Alberth: :)
14:41<@Alberth>yw :)
14:41<@planetmaker>ok, so the update to makefile broke that :P
14:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: ho, I don’t have that :)
14:44<V453000>thanks :) a lot
14:44<V453000>making some dirt roadz now :P
14:45<andythenorth>for toyland, you need slot car track?
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14:48<Samu>question
14:48<Samu>https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pFw1ZJL1TwWjXKJLotHL5FykNjEo-MYVGSTHk7hHLGi8_wQGVhrLYbCEnlIeCmYn5L99cAcvKavpxFca1l-GyKUbjuIUgvb30geHBj6XeWC6OdextTyLOL930CRjZ0TrW4ayDpbX5W7XXRX1FzIKp7w/train%20coming%20out%20of%20station.png?psid=1
14:48-!-Flygon__ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd
14:48<Samu>on that screenshot, the train coming out of the station is occupying the other lane
14:48<Samu>why?
14:49<frosch123>who knows, noone can see tracks on maglev
14:49<frosch123>maybe a piece is missing
14:49<Samu>it's not missing anything
14:50<Samu>it is forcing train 1 to wait :(
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14:52<andythenorth>shame about maglev tracks
14:52<andythenorth>I would provide maglev if there were nice track sprites
14:53<Samu>ok, let me downgrade to monorail
14:55<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I understand that you want the html docs rendered. Do you want them in the normal bundle, too, which is distributed? Or does it suffice when CF builds and publishes them?
14:55-!-Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:55<@planetmaker>(the latter is easier)
14:55<Samu>https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2p6DTxtrQv_GxaK1F3xJJfZUy4c1WwrEKFbBdlwhHctweYknLTjffN67e_wrEdc7y7MsCYryA6fIbvE-x9OfsopIZSybEezbYrvnpbEtSGoVCswGzryBXGj3kdwYF7dI13Iyf3ik9iwTy1rp7kaAQSCA/train%20coming%20out%20of%20station%20monorail.png?psid=1
14:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: they are not currently shipped in the .tar, no need to change that. They’re 2MB
14:56<andythenorth>and they can be found online anyway
14:56<@planetmaker>ok
14:56<Samu>monorail'ed that place temporarily for the screenshot
14:57<andythenorth>I think FIRS release is closer
14:57<andythenorth>if anyone plans translating, now would be good
14:58<andythenorth>won’t get picked up until tomorrow, and I might be done with the grf by then :)
14:58<andythenorth>I’ve pushed all the string changes that I’m planning
14:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, docs/*.txt are meaningful for the shipped bundle nevertheless, yes?
14:59<@planetmaker>(license/changelog/readme)
14:59<andythenorth>currently not shipping, but should be included
14:59<andythenorth>I think they’re only recently excluded by me poking at makefile
14:59<@Alberth>Samu: apparently it prefers to go straight rather than go into a corner
15:00<Samu>yes, why's that :(
15:01<@Alberth>random guess, the path finder attaches less costs to straight paths, as it allows mono trains to go faster
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15:01<@Alberth>I don't see why it's a problem, it rarely happens that trains meet this way
15:02<Samu>it's maglev
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>man, i should probably just trash this laptop and install a new windows. but i don't have any installation CDs. or license keys..
15:02<@Alberth>s/mono/maglev/
15:02<Samu>would it not do that with rail?
15:02<@Alberth>I never play either of these :)
15:02<@Alberth>no idea, I don't care about such things
15:02<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: wow, a laptop without a windows license in the bottom? must be a mac.
15:03<@Alberth>breakdowns and servicing has a much bigger impact than this waiting
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it does. but that's a really old one...
15:03<@planetmaker>pull, andy. I had to rebase my makefile change twice within 30 seconds ;)
15:03<andythenorth>someone donate Eddi a windows license
15:04<andythenorth>pulled
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>also, it's a "home", but i'd rather have a "professional"
15:04-!-pxr [~Mychomize@46-236-110-230.customer.t3.se] has joined #openttd
15:05<__ln__>xp, 7, 8?
15:05<Samu>there's windows 10 preview available
15:05<Samu>for free if u sign up to whatever microsoft wants
15:05<Samu>an account
15:06<__ln__>you don't need an account to either download it or use it
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i'm surely going to install an experimental windows beta on a work laptop
15:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: afk for 10 mins
15:06<andythenorth>:)
15:06<Samu>oh then i don't think you can find a free windows
15:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth, can you confirm that it now does what it's supposed to do? ok :)
15:07<andythenorth>will do
15:07<__ln__>Samu: nonsense
15:07<+glx>__ln__: many recent laptop don't have the license in the bottom, it's stored somewhere inside the hardware
15:08<@planetmaker>it worked for me, but meh... one never knows :)
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15:09<@planetmaker>hm...
15:12<Samu>https://insider.windows.com/
15:12<Samu>create an account, download :p
15:12<Samu>i guess that's just it
15:15<@planetmaker>andythenorth, is there still somewhere readme / license / changelog in the repo? Or generated?
15:15<@planetmaker>I fell over purge not deleting actively ignored files
15:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: (back) all docs are templates in src/docs_templates
15:16-!-DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
15:17<andythenorth>so generated
15:17<@planetmaker>ok
15:17<@planetmaker>thus my diff is somewhat wrong, but worked locally on a not totally virgin checkout
15:18<andythenorth>yeah, I think that’s my finding here
15:18<andythenorth>also
15:18<Samu>http://iso.esd.microsoft.com/W9TPI/B6B0A0278A90510669EAB90ABF80B22A/Windows10_TechnicalPreview_x64_EN-US_9926.iso
15:18<Samu>Product key: NKJFK-GPHP7-G8C3J-P6JXR-HQRJR
15:18<Samu>there it is
15:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but there's no txt files, just .pt files
15:19<frosch123>Samu: in case you wondered, noone here is interested in windows
15:19<Samu>Eddi|zuHause: wanted windows
15:19<andythenorth>there is one, compiling_firs.txt, but I think it’s an orphan
15:20<@planetmaker>oh, nvm
15:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: are you trying to find an appropriate target, or the deps?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: but i also said i won't use windows 10
15:20<Wolf01>frosch123, I am, but since the retail version will be drastically different from the technical preview, I won't waste my time :)
15:20<Samu>that's the only free windows I know of
15:20<Samu>ok, sorry then
15:21<andythenorth>can you even buy old Windows any more?
15:21<Wolf01>if stores sell it, why not?
15:22<Wolf01>also, seem they removed the three strike activation limit for XP, so it's nice to test it on VMs
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15:31<@planetmaker>so... another commit. Let's see how that works :)
15:32<andythenorth>:)
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: usually they only sell the newest windows (8.1 at this time), but the license includes the right to downgrade
15:33<andythenorth>oic
15:35<frosch123>really? who included the right to downgrade? :o
15:35<frosch123>did ms do that?
15:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: the correct target for just docs is now html_docs?
15:36<andythenorth>or doc?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, at least in the professional line
15:36<andythenorth>for people who run a massive fleet, and need to keep buying XP licenses
15:37<andythenorth>it’s quite neat
15:37<frosch123>ah, yeah, makes sense for professional line
15:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, html_docs
15:37<andythenorth>ok that does exactly what I expect
15:37<@planetmaker>it needs some different name from doc
15:37<andythenorth>that’s fine
15:37<@planetmaker>and doc / docs is too similar for my liking
15:37<frosch123>well, i keep on wondering whether win10 will be the death for ms. i just do not see that working in a professional environment
15:37<andythenorth>‘make doc’ seems to build whole grf
15:37<@planetmaker>yes, it does
15:38<@planetmaker>as docs depend on the grf
15:38<@planetmaker>that's default. Not necessarily sane. But allows to include the md5sum
15:38<andythenorth>ok
15:38<andythenorth>we’ll leave that then :)
15:47<andythenorth>anyone recognise these rocks? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/graphics_sources/guano_mine/GuanoMine1.png
15:47<andythenorth>I assume opengfx, but not sure
15:47<@planetmaker>no, I do not know them at all
15:49<V453000>diamond mine opengfx
15:49<@planetmaker>hm... :P
15:49<V453000>90% sure :P
15:49<@planetmaker>seems I seldomly dig for diamonds :P
15:49<V453000>I could be wrong
15:49<V453000>but they are very similar at least
15:50*andythenorth checks
15:51<andythenorth>yup thanks
15:51<V453000>:) yw
15:52<@planetmaker>yup, very much so. Thanks, too :)
15:54<andythenorth>V453000: so can you render me a Nitrate Mine? o_O
15:55<V453000>I have no idea how should that look
15:55<V453000>but eventually, perhaps :P though I dont like the idea of being communitys pet 3D monkey :P
15:55<V453000>for You it is worth considering :p
15:56<V453000>but wtf will you do with 1 rendered industry? :D
15:56<andythenorth>paint pixels over all of it
15:56-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-11-25.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
15:56<V453000>xd
15:56<andythenorth>tbh, I can use the one that Dan has done
15:56<andythenorth>but I have to fix those rocks
15:56<@planetmaker>why fix?
15:57<@planetmaker>err-doesn't-fit-style?
15:57<andythenorth>nothing like that in original TTD base set
15:58<andythenorth>needs some thought
15:59<V453000>.
15:59<andythenorth>also the mockup includes grass
15:59<andythenorth>which is inside the industry
15:59<andythenorth>base set conflicts :)
16:02-!-tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:09<andythenorth>V453000: ? http://www.thesettlersonlinecompendium.com/static/TSOK/b/SaltpetreMine-4.png
16:11<frosch123>V453000: you should make sure that andy has to use whatever you draw, and then draw a yeti shitting nitrate
16:12<andythenorth>http://m4.i.pbase.com/v3/93/329493/1/45160944.DSC_2476.JPG
16:13<andythenorth>maybe just rock base
16:14<andythenorth>possibly I should do land version first, easier
16:14<andythenorth>then I can release this
16:18<Supercheese>Yet more strings
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16:24<V453000>frosch123: good idea
16:26<andythenorth>Supercheese: it’s done, barring mistakes
16:26<Supercheese>roger
16:31<andythenorth>hmm
16:31<andythenorth>building industries at sea, which provide an island
16:31<andythenorth>is weird
16:32<andythenorth>no island
16:32<andythenorth>fund industry, new island appears
16:32<andythenorth>eh?
16:32<andythenorth>not good
16:35<Supercheese>sounds neat to me
16:36<Supercheese>new Tourist Center
16:36<Supercheese>Private Island
16:36<andythenorth>this is a mine :P
16:36<Supercheese>provide plenty of pax, alcohol, and food
16:36<Supercheese>:P
16:36<Supercheese>It would even have the helipad and dock built in eh
16:36<andythenorth>yeah
16:37<@planetmaker>German translation updated
16:37<andythenorth>\o/
16:37<Supercheese>I still have to figure out how they retrotranslate "Nitrate" back to Latin
16:38<@planetmaker>nitrati?
16:39<@planetmaker>nitrates?
16:39-!-KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@162.253.129.10] has joined #openttd
16:39<Supercheese>Well, the dictionary says "Nitrum" for e.g. potash
16:39<Supercheese>is that appropriate here?
16:40<Supercheese>Guano mine...?
16:40<@planetmaker>probably
16:41<andythenorth>specifics vary
16:41<andythenorth>try looking up saltpetre or saltpeter
16:42<Supercheese>Well, that would probably just be directly "Sal Petrae"
16:43<Supercheese>Probably use Nitrum
16:43<@planetmaker>my dict says nitrates: nitratus, -i
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16:45<Supercheese>Is this specifically for the extracts from the Guano mine, I haven't checked latest push builds yet
16:45<Supercheese>I'll check now
16:47<Supercheese>oh Guano mine has disappeared
16:56<andythenorth>Nitrate Mine now
16:56<andythenorth>it’s ok
16:57<andythenorth>less overall work :)
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17:04<andythenorth>maybe I can coerce this industry to build on small islands
17:04<andythenorth>harbour industries do it
17:09<Wolf01>'night
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17:13<@planetmaker>g'night
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just remember that the more restrictive the locations are, the less likely the game will actually find a location
17:14<andythenorth>yes
17:15<andythenorth>if I provide alternative layouts, some for islands and some for mainland
17:15<andythenorth>might be ok
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>"That train looks quite horsey" <- irony :p
17:15<andythenorth>bit more work
17:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: and they say Germans aren’t funny :o
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>only people who are not funny say that
17:15<andythenorth>that might be irc comment of the year so far :)
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17:40<Supercheese>Why does FIRS have its own STR_CARGO_*_FRUITS strings, rather than using OTTD default Fruit strings?
17:40<Supercheese>they seem to be identical
17:41<andythenorth>hysterical raisins
17:41<andythenorth>was Fruit & Vegetables
17:41<Supercheese>aah
17:41<andythenorth>then the veg was dropped
17:41<andythenorth>could be changed tbh
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17:43<Supercheese>Odd that the vehicle factory outputs crates. Must ship their vehicles disassembled ;)
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17:45<+glx>maybe they are assembled and put in big boxes
17:45<andythenorth>? http://assets.blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/12/COPOCamaroConcept01_1000.jpg
17:45<Supercheese>Oh very nice
17:46<Supercheese>although that seems like it could have been a publicity stunt
17:46<Supercheese>anyway, not a problem
17:46<andythenorth>cars are shipped in ISO containers sometimes, but yeah
17:46<andythenorth>thing is that it’s goods
17:46<andythenorth>so eh
17:48<Supercheese>Not complaining, just had a funny image of a fully assembled tractor but then, "wellp, gotta break it down for shippinng now"
17:48<Supercheese>mental image*
17:48<Supercheese>shipping*
17:48<Supercheese> typing :U
17:49<andythenorth>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r7X8Qf0AheQ/TZz8a4c25ZI/AAAAAAAAD74/v0slImK1Nbg/s1600/IMG_0488%20Liebherr.jpg
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17:50<Supercheese>"DO NOT HUMP" :O
17:50<Supercheese>also, axels, axels everywhere
17:52*andythenorth -> bed
17:52<andythenorth>bye
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 26 00:00:44 2015