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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-01-29

---Logopened Thu Jan 29 00:00:48 2015
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02:32<Supercheese>anyone else getting 504 errors on devzone?
02:35<V453000>yes
02:36<Supercheese>:(
02:36<Supercheese>It's dead, Jim
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02:45<@planetmaker>moin
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02:48<V453000>hi pm, devzone is being evil again :)
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02:51<Supercheese>Now it's 502...
02:55-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
02:56<andythenorth>bah
02:57<@planetmaker>yes, yes, I know
02:57<andythenorth>nah
02:57<andythenorth>not devzone keys
02:57<andythenorth>I have unexpected problems in FIRS :D
02:57<andythenorth>which are hard to fix properly
02:58<andythenorth>although lack of hg gives me an excuse ;)
03:01<Supercheese>ah, pages are loading now
03:10<andythenorth>hg and devzone working for me
03:14<^Spike^>they should
03:14<^Spike^>should anything be missing/not working highlght me or pm about it
03:14<andythenorth>will do
03:14<^Spike^>sry for the downtime i caused :)
03:14<andythenorth>eh np
03:14<andythenorth>what is our SLA anyway?
03:14<^Spike^>but hopefully improves performance
03:14<^Spike^>Best Effort at all times ;)
03:14<andythenorth>do I get a service credit? o_O
03:14<^Spike^>:)
03:15<andythenorth>1% of fees per hour downtime?
03:15<^Spike^>if you first pay my hourly rate we can consider something ;)
03:16<andythenorth>I’ll get back to you
03:17<andythenorth>so lesson from FIRS, you can’t easily have an industry set with more than 64 industries, using nml
03:17<^Spike^>hehe :)
03:17*andythenorth now trying to figure out if there’s a cheat
03:21<Supercheese>Oh, eints is down though
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03:21<^Spike^>still?
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03:22<^Spike^>should be running
03:22<andythenorth>503
03:22<@planetmaker>I get e-mails about eints exceptions. probably db connection or so
03:22<^Spike^>hmmm
03:22<^Spike^>which is weird.... considering db was up before eints
03:24<@planetmaker>trying reboot there?
03:25<@planetmaker>hm, no
03:26<@planetmaker>there
03:26<@planetmaker>dunno if ^Spike^ did anything concurrently, too, though ;)
03:28<^Spike^>nop
03:28<^Spike^>fixing a mysql cluster atm :)
03:28<^Spike^>i still also have to work my friend :D
03:28<@planetmaker>un-be-liev-able
03:29<^Spike^>considering dev works makes me believe that pgsql works :)
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03:29<@planetmaker>eints now works
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03:29<@planetmaker>windows-y behaviour. restart fixed it :P
03:29<^Spike^>lol
03:30<^Spike^>blame frosch/alberth ;)
03:30*andythenorth side steps FIRS problem, in similar fashion :P
03:35<andythenorth>sticking plaster applied
03:35<andythenorth>am *not* looking forward to the proper fix :|
03:36*V453000 is considering redoing everything in RAWR except models and textures
03:36<V453000>rendering / postproduction
03:37<andythenorth>this happens
03:37<andythenorth>the separate-grf-per-economy route is looking increasingly attractive for FIRS
03:37<V453000>=D
03:37<andythenorth>:(
03:38<V453000>well why not really
03:38<andythenorth>because also, what’s good about it?
03:38<V453000>having to manage 4 different files because wtf? :D
03:38<V453000>good about it is if you find it more feasible /attractive :D
03:38<andythenorth>seems lame
03:39<V453000>I considered separater RAWRs too
03:39<V453000>it already works that way basically
03:39<V453000>minus farms, those are (currently) the same for all climates
03:39<andythenorth>Cold RAWR, Hot RAWR, Goldilocks RAWR
03:39<V453000>each would have 100MB, not 300
03:40<V453000>the only thing it would miss is the automatic climate detection feature, but every dumass monkey can select the climate they want simply by adding that grf to the list
03:41<andythenorth>I would need a range of grfids
03:41<andythenorth>for my own use
03:41<andythenorth>reserved
03:42<V453000>XD
03:45<andythenorth>hmm
03:45<andythenorth>this all sucks
03:45<andythenorth>maybe I should go shopping or something
03:47<V453000>I am king of in the middle of wtf and wtf place
03:47<V453000>kind of*
03:48<V453000>the renders I make are then cut sprites from, as always
03:48<V453000>BUT to prevent alpha on the edges, the tile models have some extra bits around them, about 10% added
03:48<V453000>-> they are not precise pixel-wise in the results to be cut from anymore
03:49<V453000>so when tracks and everything aligns back, there are few-px differences
03:49<V453000>few-px being 2-subpixel
03:49<V453000>which is ass
03:49<V453000>could be "easily" solved by rendering 1 tile in 1 frame
03:49<V453000>but the amount of frames ._.
03:50<V453000>even that is not end of the world, but the postproduction then gets basically manual insanity
03:50<andythenorth>yeah no
03:50<andythenorth>don’t do that
03:50<V453000>well actually if I write a couple expressions :)
03:50<V453000>javascript powa
03:50<andythenorth>remind me, why do we do this?
03:54<V453000>many reasons
03:54<andythenorth>I think they’re bogus :|
03:54<andythenorth>we could just make simple little sets without pushing any boundaries
03:54<V453000>I enjoy creating it, I love the game, I learn a lot of interesting things, I do something that nobody else is doing, I get appreciation from some people, I spend my time productively,
03:56<andythenorth>he
03:56<V453000>with the aim to make it truly PROPER, I think it makes sense for me to go ultra insane on the postproduction ... though it will be more of slave labour than insane as in good idea
03:56<V453000>separate grfs are another matter, that is just a detail
03:58<andythenorth>first quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Darkness:_A_Filmmaker's_Apocalypse#Cultural_references
03:58<V453000>:)
04:00<andythenorth>does FIRS really need more than 64 industry types?
04:00<andythenorth>54 of them are stupid farms
04:00<V453000>if used sensibly, it can utilize them
04:00<V453000>does it need them to be good? no
04:01<@planetmaker>54 farms?
04:01*andythenorth exagerates
04:01<@planetmaker>the other 48 are mines :P
04:01<andythenorth>14 are farms
04:01<andythenorth>13 *
04:02<@planetmaker>nitrate, coal, iore, core, bauxite... :P
04:02<andythenorth>'mine'
04:02<andythenorth>single industry :P
04:02<@planetmaker>stuff digger, stuff grower, stuff user
04:02<andythenorth>trying to work out if I have to do this ‘properly’ (insane hard)
04:02<@planetmaker>3 industries, done
04:02<andythenorth>or if I can cheat for long enough to get away with it
04:03<andythenorth>‘proper’ means every cb chain has to have a switch checking which industry in which economy
04:03<andythenorth>and then route appropriately
04:04<V453000>I dont understand what are you aiming to do but I am afraid I do not want to? :D
04:04<V453000>izitsafe?
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04:05<andythenorth>I think it’s silly
04:05<andythenorth>I am questioning how many more industries FIRS might grow to
04:06<andythenorth>I was thinking quite a few more, maybe 15 or so
04:06<andythenorth>tyre factory, rice farm, olive farm, cheesemaker
04:06<andythenorth>maybe a ‘wtf’ economy of stupid things
04:06<V453000>XD
04:07<andythenorth>but eh, I’m fighting limits of game
04:07<andythenorth>or rather limits of nml
04:07<V453000>you can have SHITLOAD of industries really, and they can work well, just need some idea how to make them all useful
04:07<andythenorth>this is one thing that would be trivial in nfo
04:07<andythenorth>unusually
04:07<V453000>:)
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04:07<andythenorth>nfo I’d just put all the code for an economy into a single block
04:08<andythenorth>the varact 2 chains would just work
04:08<V453000>go code for SAC ::>
04:08<andythenorth>nice sprites
04:08<andythenorth>I’ve been watching them
04:08<andythenorth>they’re in the place you’re banned from
04:08<V453000>yes they look nice
04:08<V453000>yes
04:08<V453000>I see them for some reason though
04:08<andythenorth>she has pretty much nailed drawing trains
04:09<V453000>she draws nicely about everything, there is no doubt about that
04:09<V453000>but "help me create my own test.grf I will not share" is kind of silly :)
04:09<V453000>silly is politically correct expression of what I am thinking
04:10<andythenorth>cheating looks more and more the better route
04:10<andythenorth>unless we want to increase number of industries?
04:10<andythenorth>64 -> 255
04:10<andythenorth>or so
04:10<V453000>make a proper system to utilize all 64 first :)
04:11<V453000>the 64 are ever loaded at the same time in the game?
04:11<andythenorth>no
04:11<andythenorth>that would be silly
04:11<V453000>perhaps it would be nice to unify climates
04:11<andythenorth>politically correct ‘silly'
04:11<andythenorth>FIRS has 51 already
04:11<V453000>I dont think it is necessary for a newgrf to work differently in various climates
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04:11<andythenorth>and that is way the fuck too many
04:11<V453000>climate is just a cosmetic thing
04:11<andythenorth>climates are unified in FIRS
04:12<V453000>ah economiez arent
04:12<andythenorth>only change is Sugar Beet / Sugar Cane
04:12<V453000>rightr
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04:12<andythenorth>ugh, I thought I could unify all farms
04:12<andythenorth>because I thought they had same cb chain
04:13<andythenorth>but meh
04:13<andythenorth>different location rules
04:14<andythenorth>sometimes code is trying to tell you to stop doing what you’re doing
04:14<V453000>that is not code that is voices from the inside :P
04:14<andythenorth>voices
04:15<V453000>you need to inform them about shutting the fuck up and do it anyway
04:16*andythenorth wonders how much a Japanese economy is needed anyway
04:16<andythenorth>same for mediterranean
04:30*andythenorth wonders how much persistent storage is free
04:31<andythenorth>inventing fragile hax
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04:38<andythenorth>bad hax are bad
04:42<supermop>yo
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04:50<supermop>id rather have Japanese and Mediterranean than 4 more permutations of sort of central sort of western sort of northern europe
04:50<supermop>really SE asian would be better though
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04:55<andythenorth>ho
04:55<andythenorth>well with hax I can probably get about another 10 industry types
04:56<andythenorth>which isn’t enough to be worth it imho
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05:05<V453000>what do you need them for even
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05:32<andythenorth>variety between economies
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05:55<supermop>called to get a quote on a hexagonal prism of victorian bluestone today
05:56<supermop>cheaper to have a chunk of balsalt cut and shipped from china rather than from the quarry just outside the city unsurprisingly
05:57<andythenorth>you must be in Australia
05:57<supermop>everything is expensive here, so yes
05:58<supermop>i don't recall much flood basalts in england to be honest
05:58<supermop>although i do recall old volcanic plugs in yorkshire
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05:59<supermop>looking at just buying an old stone lintel from a demolished building and try to cut it myself
06:01<supermop>the odd projects i invent for myself to procrastinate are getting more exotic
06:02<supermop>what about a quarry that produces cut stone (bldg materials) and gravel (stone)?
06:02<andythenorth>valid, if there’s no cement plant
06:02<andythenorth>otherwise stone -> bldg materials is weird
06:03<supermop>only seems to make sense as an odd niche or a pre-modern thing
06:03<V453000>bdmt! :P
06:04<supermop>and even then only if you are using a GS that requires bldgmt and are before the advent of brickyards etc
06:05<supermop>is the fine stone quarry or my desire to take a prism of basalt home with me as a souvenir more weird
06:07<supermop>i think i am close to done with this busy bee game
06:08<andythenorth>any good?
06:08<supermop>yes, small map
06:09<supermop>1930-48
06:09<supermop>firs, sbb set, pipe, road hog
06:09<supermop>interesting cascading trains and ships down to different routes as network adjusts to new goals
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06:25<andythenorth>hmm
06:25<andythenorth>might have solved it all
06:25<andythenorth>all of it
06:25<andythenorth>ever
06:36<supermop>sounds about right
06:37*andythenorth wonders if 6 varact 2 chains will compile any faster than 66 varact 2 chains
06:37<andythenorth>the 6 will be moderately more complex than the 66, but probably a lot fewer total LOC
06:37<andythenorth>and much smaller total switch count
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07:01<supermop>http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/bluestones-/111583137356?pt=AU_Building_Materials&hash=item19fadf8e4c
07:05<andythenorth>I’d like 10
07:05<andythenorth>shipped to UK
07:05<andythenorth>thanks
07:06<supermop>no problem
07:06<supermop>i only ship via personal courier, first class airfare
07:06<andythenorth>:P
07:07<supermop>ticket+baggage for those probably cheaper than shipping
07:07<supermop>my flight to aus plus oversize fee for my bike in a box was cheaper than just shipping the bike on its own
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07:09<andythenorth>you should have gone somewhere closer
07:09<andythenorth>it makes no economic sense to pay more for travelling further
07:09<andythenorth>according to forums, nearly daily
07:10<supermop>nah, just need to make sure the plane goes slow enough that your airfare is cheap by the time you land
07:11<supermop>as they come around handing out cash refunds if they are delayed but demanding premium payment if they land early
07:11<andythenorth>what if your bike has aged though?
07:11<andythenorth>tyres might be flat
07:11<andythenorth>or it might just be uncool now
07:11<supermop>the industry doesnt mind
07:12<supermop>produces one unit smug satisfaction per unit bike delivered
07:12<supermop>production jumps up if craft beer is delivered within month
07:15*andythenorth trying to not start total rewrite of FIRS
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07:22<dreck>hi
07:27<argoneus>hi dreck
07:27<argoneus>how are you doing today
07:27<argoneus>my train friend
07:27<argoneus>RAWR
07:28<dreck>?
07:28<V453000>RAWR
07:30<andythenorth>V453000 is my train enemy, not my train friend
07:30<V453000>FOE
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07:30<andythenorth>yeah that
07:30*andythenorth will now rewite all of FIRS
07:30<andythenorth>oh no, wait
07:30*andythenorth will finish current release :|
07:32<dreck>anyway meant to ask this here seeing theres some people from europe too...generally what was the largest tank steam locomotive in operation? (non-mallet that is)
07:32<V453000>steam was run by slugs mainly
07:33<andythenorth>eh, nobody here knows much about trains
07:33<andythenorth>try wikipedia?
07:33<V453000>especially since 1935 when hitler started mass-taming of giant slugs
07:33<V453000>but since many people believed the slugs would be the doom of mankind, some evil countries fought against them and a world war became out of it
07:34<V453000>after that, giant slug population was eliminated and we only know it in memories, books and newgrfs now
07:34<V453000>the slug was a giant steam engine, it even had its own power unit - 1sp, slug power
07:34<V453000>1 slug power is about 3000hp
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>were there woolly slug remains found in sibiria?
07:35<andythenorth>V453000 I think you’re just being silly
07:35<andythenorth>wikipedia has nothing about this
07:35<V453000>but then some slugs in further development in the 1940s had up to 2,16sp (65k hp)
07:35<V453000>wikipedia has some missing parts yes
07:35<V453000>XD yes Eddi, furry slugs were in the northern lands
07:36<V453000>dreck was asking retarded question, I replied appropriately.
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: i don't know about "largest", but the german BR 61 was a high speed tank steam engine (only two were ever built)
07:37<andythenorth>it’s not a retarded question in rec.trains.foamers or something
07:37<dreck>eddi oh, I keep almost forgetting about that one..thanks I'll recheck it again
07:38<dreck>that was the one in purple/cream (purple/white? I forgot heh) to match its short distance express trainset right :)
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, purple/cream(-ish) was the livery of express trains of that era
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>this particular one operated between Berlin and Dresden
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>most of the rest of the network was operated by diesel MUs
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07:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can you think of any theoretical reason why industries can’t share switch chains where the behaviour is common (and industry-specific results can be written out by code generator)?
07:43<andythenorth>long q, sorry
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>i can think of loads of things...
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>but mostly of the type "things you could do wrong"
07:44<dreck>ah dmu .. that reminds me also of that almost-all-purple triangularish-shaped-front unit ..SVT1-something .. but anyway thanks for the BR61 tho .. back to more crunching now here :)
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>not "things that will utterly prevent this from existing"
07:44<andythenorth>can’t read any industry properties directly
07:44<andythenorth>everything that you want to read has to be stuffed into temp storage at start of chain afaict
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07:45<andythenorth>not even sure that holds though
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>why would you even need that? you already have the economy parameter to read
07:45<andythenorth>I don’t, and it’s nonsense
07:45<andythenorth>cb chain can be scoped to current industry anyway
07:46<andythenorth>confusing myself with how nml presents things, and how nfo actually works
07:47<andythenorth>nmlc is the wildcard here, doing this in nfo would be quite easy to work out
07:47<andythenorth>I don’t know what magic nmlc does to resolve varact 2 chains and ids
07:47<andythenorth>probably I just try it
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>try to keep industries that share varaction2 chains close together in the code, otherwise nmlc might run out of IDs
07:49<andythenorth>that is my primary concern
07:49<andythenorth>not enough varact 2 IDs
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's usually not a problem
07:49<andythenorth>I already hit that in the spritelayout switches
07:50<andythenorth>teach nmlc to handle it :P
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>add to the grfv9 specs that action2-ids are 16bit :p
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>or 32bit :)
07:51<andythenorth>or add an algorithm for reuse
07:52<andythenorth>must just be some kind of graph solver?
07:52*andythenorth can say words he doesn’t really understand
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's similar to "register pressure"
07:52<andythenorth>nfo we just reused IDs
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc does this as well
07:53<andythenorth>what is limit, if you recall?
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>but some IDs must stay valid because they are used later again
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>then you must reorder stuff
07:54<andythenorth>I could probably have the code generator arrange code correctly
07:54<andythenorth>would rather not, but eh
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>256 IDs can be "alive" at any time
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a linear chain, the whole chain uses 1 ID over and over again
07:54<andythenorth>that’s worth knowing
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>each branch adds an additional ID
07:55<andythenorth>also wondering how nmlc handles split action 0 blocks
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>action0 is irrelevant
07:55<andythenorth>ah this would be action 3
07:55*andythenorth translating nml -> nfo
07:55<andythenorth>whether splitting cb and graphics handling helps with ID consumption
07:56<andythenorth>it must consolidate them to a single action 3, surely?
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>action3 is the combination of all "graphics" block
07:56<andythenorth>one and only one action 3 per industry aiui
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:56<andythenorth>still easier to think in nfo
07:56<andythenorth>horrible syntax, easy structure & concepts
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>although in theory, you could action7 several action3
07:57<andythenorth>for industry ID reuse, action 7-ed action 3s are inevitable
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think nmlc does this
07:58<andythenorth>if I’ve counted correctly, I currently have ~66 sets of varact 2 chains
07:58<andythenorth>which can be reduced to 6 sets
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>but also i'm not really sure how nmlc generates action3
07:59<andythenorth>because nearly all behaviour is common, only the specific results need to change for most cbs
07:59<andythenorth>the results are either static and can be written at compile time
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds like you need "procedures", but afair, nmlc didn't implement those
08:00<andythenorth>I’ll just shared switch chains
08:00<andythenorth>share *
08:00<andythenorth>hopefully nmlc permits that
08:00<supermop>night
08:00<andythenorth>think it’s done already in some places in FIRS
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, nmlc should allow that
08:00<andythenorth>construction states use it currently I think
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CETS does something like this with the capacity callback
08:01<andythenorth>if I do this, it’s a lot of boring work
08:01<andythenorth>but conceptually quite simple
08:01<andythenorth>FIRS code in repo gets a lot smaller
08:01<andythenorth>FIRS nml gets a lot smaller
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "boring" work is the job for the code generator
08:01<andythenorth>well $somebody has to remove all the current manual code per industry
08:01<V453000>so Eddi when is CETS coming out? :P
08:02<andythenorth>and copy the values to a place where generator can read them :)
08:02<andythenorth>$someone = andythenorth
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: when... err... *hides*
08:02<andythenorth>the CPP defines & macros approach to grfs was a nice party trick
08:02<andythenorth>but ugh, scales horribly
08:05<andythenorth>all of this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/aluminium_plant.pypnml
08:06<andythenorth>gets moved to some python properties or just deleted
08:07<andythenorth>and repeat for 65 other industries
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>use a tracking table that contains all data...
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08:09<andythenorth>considered it
08:09<andythenorth>a tracking table is 2 dimensional, so in some ways is the perfect format
08:10<andythenorth>you can read per industry, or per economy
08:10<andythenorth>but eh I dunno, I tried that route with FISH and removed it, something weird about it
08:11<andythenorth>there’s always some case that needs ugly magic-character string handling
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that's because you see complex structures differently than i do...
08:15<andythenorth>think so
08:16<andythenorth>seems probable that you trust the code you write
08:16<andythenorth>whereas I don’t trust the code I write
08:16<andythenorth>so anything like building a list from string splits…makes me itch
08:16<andythenorth>although every csv and json parser must do the same
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08:28<dreck>hmm got a silly wording question .. would "express" and "fast express" be able to possibly mean different thing or its just really dictionary-style word duplicating?
08:29<andythenorth>tautology
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08:29<andythenorth>express implies fast
08:30<andythenorth>“very fast express” would be absolutely fine
08:30<andythenorth>English ‘rules’ are…special
08:31<dreck>heh, thanks..I'll have to rethink of some wording
08:35<dreck>local/domestic express .. international express ... hmm nah that doesn't sound good .. heh
08:37<andythenorth>what is it?
08:37<andythenorth>what does it do?
08:39<dreck>oh..sorry lacked a bit context .. just thinking if there was a simple word to differ the 120kph set from the 200kph set without having to bother with numbers .. but I'm thinking at a look now so ar that its probably not so simple to try do it that way
08:39<dreck>ar=far*
08:39<andythenorth>these are trains, or railtypes?
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08:40<dreck>trains
08:41<andythenorth>dunno, just give them names?
08:41<andythenorth>player can read speed in the buy menu
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08:46<dreck>yep going that way :)
08:47<andythenorth>bbl
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09:03<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: speed designations heavily depend on the timeframe.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: in 2000's DB speak, "regional express" is a sped up local train (about 160km/h, no on board service, usable with local train tickets etc.), and "inter city express" is a very fast long distance train (>200km/h, on board service, only usable with special long distance tickets)
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>but these definitions are fuzzy at best
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>these are complemented by "regional train" (usually up to 120km/h, with some faster exceptions, stops at any station), and "inter city" (up to 200km/h)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>but all these are rather bad categories for the game.
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09:23<dreck>yeah theres no 'real' passengers in openttd even if some grfs do try to make some cosmetic differences (such as a pullman coach with lower seat capacity than the standard coach in buy list)
09:33<argoneus>I wish I understood how simcity worked
09:33<argoneus>4
09:34<dreck>I think I might have figured it out..'generation I express' vs 'generation II express' .. seem to work .. I'll see what the list looks like later
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09:38<dreck>argoneus maybe try a simplier simcity version? not the best kind of answer I guess but heh
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09:38<argoneus>heh
09:39<dreck>tbh I still have my 2000 Collection cd+papers here :)
09:41<dreck>mind you I know its silly to thinka bout it but all these years I've known that on the back of the jewel case it clearly says "powermacintosh" at least two times but the one single window screenshot they used is from dos instead
09:42<dreck>anyway argoneus theres also always towns in openttd too..just not the kind you can manage as a mayor tho :P
09:42*dreck hehs
09:43<argoneus>I just don't understand
09:43<argoneus>the point of density zones
09:44<argoneus>but this isn't #opensimcity so yeah
09:44<dreck>density? how many does sc4 have?
09:44<argoneus>it has 3 types for each res, com, ind
09:44<argoneus>and different density things require different density things
09:44<argoneus>like low density residents require medium density commercial or some shit
09:44<dreck>argoneus I'm guessing at least 3+ densities for each types?
09:47<argoneus>yeah, 3 densities for each
09:47<dreck>mm I guess they wanted to go overboard with the population micro-management idea :/
09:48<dreck>does it nitpick you a lot on water supply?
09:48<argoneus>not really
09:48<argoneus>I didn't even get that far
09:48<argoneus>they only want electricity
09:48<dreck>argoneus mm mind if I ask what os you using?
09:48<argoneus>win7
09:49<dreck>ok
09:49<dreck>well argoneus just if you wanted to know..I've never really tried 3000 (although I recall the artworks suggested that was when farm fields were introduced) ... but 2000 is pretty simple that its easy to get the hang of...
09:50<argoneus>what about 4?
09:51<dreck>you only got low/high density which means low density only has houses or low-squat buildings while high density has a mix of lowdensity and tower-alike buildings altogether .. and water can be put off for the first few hundred people but electricity is always wanted early on
09:53<dreck>the only one small fault I do sometimes have with the design of things in 2000 was the slight lack of actual public street transport (you only get given a 2x2 bus station tile to build next to the road and thats it)
09:53<dreck>at least with simutrans and ttdxp/openttd you can actually build a real public transit system :)
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10:22<@Belugas>good day
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10:29<dreck>wb andy :)
10:30<V453000>hy Belugas
10:30<andythenorth>hmm FISH 2 seems to have high download count
10:30<andythenorth>I guess there are only 2 good ship sets
10:30<andythenorth>and that’s one of them
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10:32<V453000>XD he came to deliver this message.
10:32<V453000>I didnt even manage to respond quickly enough
10:32<dreck>sometimes some people seem to be like that on irc :)
10:34*dreck picks up phone, dial number, demands a burger, hangs up
10:34<dreck>:p
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10:54<andythenorth>food processor
10:54<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7041/food_processor_2.png
10:54<andythenorth>V453000: moar contrast, moar company colour?
10:57<V453000>bit more dark on the pipes on the right I think
10:57<V453000>and some very bright on the silos on the left
10:57<V453000>other than that looks amazing
10:57<andythenorth>Dan made it from bits we already had
10:58<V453000>:)
10:58<andythenorth>layout is exact copy of TTD food processor
10:58<andythenorth>for reasons
10:58<andythenorth>usually copy-paste from other industries requires unifying palette
10:58<andythenorth>I think this is same
10:58<V453000>XD
10:59<V453000>anyway, I gtfo homew
10:59<V453000>bai
10:59<andythenorth>k thanks bai
10:59<andythenorth>etc
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11:16<andythenorth>oops
11:18<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7042/oops.png
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem.
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11:19<andythenorth>waves will put the fire out
11:19<andythenorth>fortunately there are no waves in TTD
11:19<andythenorth>although….there is wind :o
11:19<andythenorth>inconsistent physics :P
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>there are waves
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's what changes the colour of water
11:20<andythenorth>not in my ottd
11:20<andythenorth>I have to disable animation these days
11:21<andythenorth>otherwise the game chugs
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11:24<andythenorth>also the smoke is wrong? o_O
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11:28<andythenorth>better? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7043/nitrate_mine_3.png
11:28*andythenorth feels like some props might be set wrong...
11:28<andythenorth>also they’re mining nitrate from sea water directly, it seems
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause>maybe there are so many people peeeing into the ocean
11:45<andythenorth>fish
11:45<andythenorth>piss in it
11:45*andythenorth has to check the fish tank levels
11:45<andythenorth>not even a fan of fish
11:46<andythenorth>ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph
11:46<andythenorth>nitrite spike = upside down floating fish
11:46*andythenorth has learnt about chemistry
11:46<andythenorth>my wife wanted fish
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11:52<Samu>hi! could we build a bridge over a lock in a future version?
11:55<@Alberth>wait until the future arrives, and you'll know
11:56<@Alberth>o/ all
11:57<Taede>ello
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11:59<andythenorth>FIRS translations anyone?
11:59<andythenorth>probably release at the weekend, unless bugs
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12:01<Eddi|zuHause>there are always bugs.
12:02<andythenorth>big bugs
12:02<andythenorth>like wrong cb handling :P
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12:16<@Alberth>dutch translation done
12:16<@Alberth>he! he left :(
12:16<@planetmaker> he's very volatile today :)
12:17<@Alberth>ah well, he'll be back then :)
12:18<@Alberth>time to worry about evenink food
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12:32<Propliner>Howdy. Is this the right place to ask a question about pathfinding?
12:38<@Alberth>you can try :)
12:45<Propliner>http://f.666kb.com/i/cvo6g05585ed3wwfp.png What's going on here, the pathfinder shouldn't penalize regular path signals that much, right?
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27128 trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt (2015-01-29 17:45:32 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 2 changes by kdzar
12:47<@Alberth>something coming from the other side?
12:48<@Alberth>you can enable display of path reservations, which makes it easier to see what tracks are reserved
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>that would also be my guess, something from the other side already reserved the platform
12:50<Propliner>There's another train on the other side, but it's past the signal and not heading for this platform
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>oh, you use waypoints, that's a problem, because the train will not add penalties beyond the waypoint, so it cannot distinguish full or empty platforms
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i think i reported that years ago, but i don't think anyone ever adressed this
12:52<@Alberth>good spot eddi
12:52<Propliner>Oh, I see. Thanks for the tip
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13:02<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>Propliner: instead of sorting by waypoint you might want to try sorting by platform length
13:10<Propliner>Hm. Is it guaranteed that the steamers wouldn't use the terminus platform, ever?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>penalties for too short platform must be higher than for full platform
13:12<Propliner>Could set up a quick test game for that, yeah
13:12<Propliner>Don't wanna risk messing up my timetables
13:12<@Alberth>you can always reload an old save game :)
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13:17<@Alberth>dutch done andy
13:20<andythenorth>yay
13:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: when you add the new open / closing stuff to opengfx+, you can add it to FIRS o_O :P
13:20<andythenorth>he just really wants somebody to do it
13:20<andythenorth>somewhere
13:20<andythenorth>he doesn’t really care where
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13:25<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7044/nitrate_mine_4.png
13:25<andythenorth>progress
13:26<Propliner>Eddi|zuHause: The platform length alone isn't, strangely enough
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13:26<Propliner>It does seem to work though if you also add the penalty of a regular path signal
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>Propliner: you can tweak the penalties
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>Propliner: there are absolute penalties (platform is too short or too long) and relative penalties (platform is X tiles too short or too long)
13:29<Propliner>Ah, in OpenTTD.cfg?
13:30<V453000>andythenorth: getting lost a bit in the ground at the moment :)
13:30<V453000>needz moar
13:30<V453000>but other than that, looks great
13:30<andythenorth>brown CC, on brown ground, with brown non-CC
13:30<andythenorth>:P
13:31<andythenorth>too many empty tiles, eh?
13:31<V453000>:)
13:31<Supercheese>better hire some professional Greeble Yetis
13:31<V453000>yeah kind of I think
13:31<V453000>put there some Nitrate heaps :P
13:31<Supercheese>they'll Greeble it what for
13:32<andythenorth>bloody nitrate heaps
13:32<andythenorth>I’m not drawing those
13:32<Supercheese>sounds explosive
13:32<V453000>ps prepare for your death as I will have to add you dumass caroges to NUTS :P
13:32<V453000>pff
13:32<V453000>if not drawing then enw cargoes are boring
13:32<Supercheese>just put giant block-letter N-O_3 on flat wagons
13:32<V453000>humanz want to see them
13:32<Supercheese>Nitrates
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>Propliner: openttd.cfg won't help your current game, you have to tweak them on the console for that
13:33<andythenorth>what do the nitrates look like?
13:33<andythenorth>:P
13:34<@Alberth>looks nice andy, open space makes clear the action is underground
13:34<V453000>exactly, leaving it just as a word and transporting it in coal wagons is just boring
13:34<V453000>it can look like anything, but make it look somehow
13:34<andythenorth>searching for pictures, nitrates are mostly…explodey
13:34<andythenorth>in an unwanted way
13:35<Supercheese>unless you're a terrorist
13:35<Supercheese>although even then they have accidents
13:35<@Alberth>also, you should add an crane builder industry :p
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>anything containing nitrogen is explosey
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>because molecular nitrogen is one of the most stable compounds on this earth
13:36<andythenorth>clearly it’s white http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/imfile/15622.jpg
13:36<Supercheese>except Nitrogen gas
13:36<Supercheese>pretty darn inert
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>there is this huge gap between nitrogen compounds and molecular nitrogen that is great for explodey stuff
13:37<andythenorth>V453000: covered or bagged… http://nick86235.smugmug.com/keyword/fctt/1689461686_3wjr4qm
13:37<V453000>covered is not visible :P
13:37<V453000>bagged at least :)
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: black and white pictures are notoriously inaccurate for guessing colours of things :p
13:37<@Alberth>just big white blocks?
13:37<V453000>nuts will have it on hoppers anyway :)
13:37<Supercheese>well, when the B&W is pure white....
13:37<V453000>it is a MINE -> it outputs HEAPS
13:38<Supercheese>Cargo production: 14 Spoonfulls
13:39<Propliner>Eddi|zuHause: Cheers, I'll tinker with the values when I've more time
13:39<Supercheese>most appropriate for toyland sugar mine
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13:39<Eddi|zuHause>tablespoons or teaspoons?
13:40<Supercheese>Yes.
13:43<andythenorth>nitrate looks pure white
13:44<andythenorth>I hate heaps
13:45<andythenorth>they always look bad
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>just reuse an existing heap, potentially recoloured
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>like from ISR
13:45<andythenorth>I cheat, and get them from baseset currently
13:45<andythenorth>I guess I have to use a CHIPS one
13:45<andythenorth>they suck
13:45<andythenorth>does baseset have sugar pile? o_O
13:46<andythenorth>toyland broke map gen :o
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know...
13:46<andythenorth>no town locations :)
13:47<andythenorth>ach come on
13:47<andythenorth>if I can’t have ‘normal’ towns then don’t provide the option :D
13:48<andythenorth>this is ridiculous :)
13:49<andythenorth>very flat, seal level medium, towns normal, industry high, height level 16, smoothness smooth
13:49<andythenorth>seal level? o_O
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13:51<Eddi|zuHause>is that involved with klum level?
13:51<andythenorth>plausible
13:51<andythenorth>industries now minimal, seal level 0, variety distribution none
13:51<andythenorth>still failing
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>you have no town names?
13:52<andythenorth>using ‘silly'
13:52<andythenorth>typically gets to 113 out of 116 industries, then ties up my cpu for a bit
13:52<andythenorth>then bails
13:53<andythenorth>“map generation aborted…no suitable town locations"
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>but industries are after towns?
13:53<andythenorth>gee it’s slow
13:53<andythenorth>since when was it this slow
13:54*andythenorth never normally uses toyland
13:55<andythenorth>same settings in tropic are near-instant
13:55<andythenorth>ditto sub-arctic, temperate
13:56<andythenorth>yeah toyland is just borked for me
13:56<andythenorth>no loss eh
13:59<frosch123>no houses available?
13:59<frosch123>or something like that
13:59<andythenorth>ho
13:59<andythenorth>maybe it’s TAI
13:59<andythenorth>blame pikka
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14:00<Wolf01>hello
14:01<andythenorth>4783
14:01<andythenorth>sugar
14:08<Wolf01>milk
14:09<@Alberth>tea
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>but E-numbers are usually 3 digits :p
14:10<Wolf01>in a cake?
14:10<andythenorth>base set sprite numbers are climate specific, eh?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are sprites that are only used in certain climates
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the original base set puts them in different files
14:11<andythenorth>sugar mine sugar being one I think
14:11<andythenorth>nvm
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14:31<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7045/nitrate_piles.png
14:32*andythenorth adding more processors
14:32<Wolf01>andythenorth, did you see the LEGO SHIELD helicarrier? I say it does have too much black, but it's really nice and well done
14:32<andythenorth>it’s interesting
14:32<andythenorth>I know nothing about these comics sets :)
14:32<Wolf01>also, nice industry
14:37<andythenorth>better http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7046/nitrate_mine_5.png
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>i've never in my life really followed superhero comics. i knew of batman, spiderman and superman, and suddenly there are hundreds of them everywhere
14:40<Wolf01>me too
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14:59<andythenorth>hmm
14:59<andythenorth>I want to locate nitrate mines in desert
14:59<andythenorth>but not break other climates
14:59<andythenorth>disallow rainforest?
15:00<frosch123>there is also normal land in tropic
15:00<frosch123>just check the climate as well :)
15:01<frosch123>climate != TROPIC || tropic_zone == DESERT
15:01<andythenorth>eh, I don’t know how the FIRS templates do that :)
15:01<andythenorth>I didn’t write them, not inclined to touch them
15:01<frosch123>i though you would know how to check for rainforest
15:02<frosch123>isn't there some location check somewhere?
15:02<andythenorth>I was just going to pass TILETYPE_RAIN_FOREST to the macro
15:02<andythenorth>and see what happened
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15:03<andythenorth>although…I’ve enforced flat land, mostly building in desert anyway
15:03<andythenorth>maybe I leave it be
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>"i randomly type letters until some combination shows an effect" sounds like a terrible approach
15:05<andythenorth>I dunno
15:06<andythenorth>apparently has results
15:06<andythenorth>correlation != causation
15:30<andythenorth>eh these mines don’t cluster
15:30<andythenorth>which looks better
15:30<andythenorth>maybe clustering is wrong
15:30<andythenorth>going to set them to cluster anyway, for consistent internal API
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15:52<andythenorth>oh
15:52<andythenorth>there’s a vehicle factory
15:52<andythenorth>they’re going to ask me if it can produce trains and provide them to depots :|
15:54<Wolf01>purchase trains from industries! You first need to set up a route to provide the raw materials... wheelbarrows?
15:56<andythenorth>“haters gonna hate"
15:56<andythenorth>“idiots gonna id"
15:59<@Alberth>vehicle != train
16:00<@Alberth>you need a wheelbarrow factory first
16:00<@Alberth>not to mention a factory factory
16:01<Wolf01>we could start with sticks and rocks
16:02<Wolf01>then tame some horses
16:03<andythenorth>lugs
16:03<andythenorth>slugs even
16:03<andythenorth>when compiling FIRS, my keyboard lags
16:03<andythenorth>which is odd because it’s only single threaded
16:03<andythenorth>and the other 3 thread units are doing bugger all
16:04<Wolf01>pfff when I use PHPStorm I type so fast I fill the buffer, so I need to switch the usb port to be able to type again
16:04<@Alberth>storm isn't that big thus :p
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16:05<Wolf01>tbh, I don't know why that does happen, it could be a problem with the keyboard, but it happen only when PHPStorm autocompletes stuff
16:06<Wolf01>and it blocks the keyboard system wise
16:07<@Alberth>sounds like it's doing real low level access
16:08<Wolf01>it could be the keyboard going stupid, it's a microsoft cordless one, works well while works
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16:18<andythenorth>eh, I think it’s probably done
16:18<andythenorth>more translations?
16:18<andythenorth>testing?
16:19<@Alberth>sleep
16:19<Wolf01>lego
16:19<andythenorth>both
16:25<@Alberth>dreaming about lego
16:26<andythenorth>:P
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16:48<andythenorth>eh changelog done
16:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: Any chance of this thing in SQUID? http://gcaptain.com/x-bow-carrier-concept-maritime/
16:50<FLHerne>Very futuristic-looking
16:54<andythenorth>it was planned as a fast coaster
16:54<andythenorth>but I can’t draw it
16:54<andythenorth>or cba
16:54<andythenorth>also, irl, not fast, just efficient and good at seaholding
16:56<FLHerne>Lower running costs?
16:56<FLHerne>Except no-one cares about those for ships anyway
16:57<FLHerne>Wasn't the Kwangtung tug one of those X-Bow thingies?
16:59<FLHerne>No, my memory is broken
17:00<andythenorth>if someone drew it, there would be X-Bow
17:00<andythenorth>or renderised
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17:49<Wolf01>'night
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18:37<@peter1138>Hmm, forgot how hard Episode 3 of Doom is...
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even know doom had "episodes"
18:45<@peter1138>Er, yeah... Episode 1 was the shareware part.
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>so basically it's "DLC" before there was "DL"?
19:31<@peter1138>Not really, you didn't pay for Episode 1...
19:36-!-dreck [~oftc-webi@bas1-ottawa08-1176110546.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
19:36<dreck>hi
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>so it was also "F2P"
19:47<dreck>whats the topic atm?
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>it says the topic when you join
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>(also, there are logs)
20:33<dreck>I don't see a f2p-something in the topic? and mm ... logs?
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21:07*dreck almost want to whack the wagon list into a pile of rubbish :-s
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21:18<dreck>oh well the loco list seem to be coming out nicely
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22:08<berndj>how do i read the cargo dist map? i have lines but how do i know which direction is which? i want to reinforce overloaded routes with more buses
22:11<Sylf>You set your distribution asymmetric?
22:14<berndj>yes, looks like it
22:22<Sylf>I really have no idea how to tell which line is which direction
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 30 00:00:50 2015