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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-02

---Logopened Mon Feb 02 00:00:54 2015
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04:11<supermop>V453000: i figured the frogs were not pointless invisible detail enough so now i am modelling the pointwork
04:11<V453000>good :D
04:12<V453000>side note: I am going to start a new train set with huge ass vehicles just to make them bigger and care about details moar :P
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04:14<supermop>i am only doing 12m scale on the roads becase i sort of settled on that for the houses
04:15<supermop>for rail infrastructure to be honest id rather do 8 or even 4
04:15<V453000>making everything in the same scale sounds like the way to go to me
04:15<V453000>comes especially handy when you have multiple projects and share models among them
04:16<supermop>i'd do 4 for houses if they could be 3x2 tiles
04:16<supermop>and if roads could be one lane per tile
04:16<V453000>as in 4m = 1 tile?
04:16<supermop>zoom all the way out to get something like 1x
04:17<V453000>well I am going to just make trains longer
04:17<V453000>8/8 with somewhat normal height and width looks just shrunk in length
04:17<V453000>needz 16/8
04:18<supermop>i once thought of that as a way to 'fix' the gap between rails - double track should be narrowed than a normal street not twice the width of street and sidewalks
04:18<supermop>i think the stubby chibi/sd look can work
04:18<supermop>the original trains are stubby
04:18<V453000>hm :)
04:18<supermop>super stubby could work
04:19<supermop>let me dig up something i did 5 y ago real quick
04:24<supermop>hmm dont have it on this computer
04:25<supermop>but a few trains each car only twice as long as it is wide
04:25<supermop>based on the tama monorail, a jr emu, and a nyc subway
04:26<supermop>basically only one door per side
04:27<V453000>yeah currently I basically use 4/8 width, sort of the same height, and 8/8 length
04:27<V453000>which is just not enough
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04:27<V453000>in my units it of course is 250cm, 250cm and 500cm
04:27<V453000>eh 2500 2500 and 5000 :) /relevant
04:27<V453000>and that is just ... stubby. :)
04:30<supermop>i sort of want to model impossible tram junctions, just in cae
04:31<supermop>if i ever get to a metabolist or melbourne rail set i think ill do the loading gauge at 4m/tiles but the trains a bit smaller
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04:48<Taede> <-- anyone have any idea what the error 32 represents?
04:50<V453000>running low on beer
04:53<supermop>i am learning about local culture
04:53<supermop>(drinking wine)
04:53<Taede>so when's the BEER newgrf coming?
04:56<V453000>BEER Enormously Exciting Reconvalescence?
05:09<NGC3982>We need that.
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06:14<andythenorth>big head
06:16<andythenorth>V453000: FIRS?
06:16<andythenorth>what haz opinions you haz?
06:17<V453000> trying the tropic economy on server now, looks very interesting
06:17<V453000>dont have time to actually play but from what I browsed through it, looks good
06:18<andythenorth>more circular chains
06:18<andythenorth>fewer linear chains
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06:18<V453000>I like the thing like that you create manufacturing supplies which boost production of food and food boosts FS again
06:18<V453000>that is a lot of fun
06:18<andythenorth>my 5 year old was playing yesterday
06:18<andythenorth>I’ve been teaching him not to just build random shit
06:18<andythenorth>so we joined ranch -> stockyard -> bulk terminal -> farms
06:19<andythenorth>and he said “that’s a circle!"
06:19<andythenorth>and was very pleased with the neatness
06:19<andythenorth>he likes neat
06:19<V453000>good shit
06:19<andythenorth>5 year old opinions probably worth slightly more than the average reddit player
06:19<andythenorth>fewer time to build stupid prejudices :P
06:20<V453000>also, I might be starting a new train set :P
06:20<V453000>moar realizms, moar details, even moar pixels
06:20<andythenorth>he now also nows what ‘double’ and ‘quadruple’ means
06:20<andythenorth>more realizms? :(
06:20<SpComb>does he know what a float is
06:20<andythenorth>not yet
06:20<V453000>not really :P but they will look more like normal trains at least to start with
06:20<andythenorth>actually I think the anti-realizms has gone far enough now, the point is made
06:21<V453000>am basically making NUTS, in simpler version and more functional in some places
06:21<andythenorth>as realizms as pikka? o_O
06:21<V453000>so realism isnt really relevant, but blueprints of real trains help with amking it look solid
06:21<V453000>in a way yes
06:21<andythenorth>smaller set?
06:22<V453000>but much less realistic than that, I will just and only take the blueprints, edit them, etc
06:22<V453000>until I can make a nice train from scratch just by imagination
06:22<V453000>it is hard to make nice relevant details without some real base at the start
06:22<V453000>the whole reason is that I hate how 8/8 looks when rendered
06:22<V453000>fat, tall, short
06:22<V453000>want 16/8 everywhere
06:23<V453000>+ ultimate wagon, one wagon you refit to anything, connects with any engine, adapts accordingly based on leading engine
06:23<andythenorth>V453000: instead of 16/8, can you compose it from units?
06:23<andythenorth>break things into chunks?
06:23<V453000>of course
06:23<andythenorth>dunno how to explain, but it’s like Lego spaceships
06:23<andythenorth>or FIRS industries
06:23<V453000>16/8 sprite would be just glitchfuck
06:23<V453000>lego spaceships? :D
06:24<andythenorth>yeah, the good ones are made up of modules
06:24<andythenorth>and you compose modules together to make the overall thing
06:24<andythenorth>FIRS started out with massive 2 or 4 tile buildings
06:25<andythenorth>now I mostly only do single tile
06:25<andythenorth>but they compose together well
06:26<andythenorth>will explain better another day :P
06:26<V453000>ah right
06:27<V453000>yeah well, I think rendering things into bits per-unit is rather eazy :)
06:27<andythenorth>I have a feeling that me and Dan have been drawing / \ ‘wrong’ for years
06:27<andythenorth>because the shortened dimension is non-intuitive
06:28*andythenorth is now pissed off with the whole angles issue, and only drawing buildings :P
06:28<V453000>it didnt pose an issue to me in pixel drawing
06:28<V453000>but the render looks just retarded
06:29<V453000>slugs look fine, that is about it though
06:29<V453000>when you want any resemblance to a real train, it gets wtf
06:29<V453000>hence I want to try some 16/8s
06:29<andythenorth>and this is why we can’t have nice things
06:29<andythenorth>oh no wait
06:30<V453000>oh we can :)
06:30<andythenorth>this is why I spent about 2 weeks recoding all of Iron Horse to support > 8/8
06:30<andythenorth>with a lot of help from Eddi, and other people saying ‘wtf, stop this madness'
06:30<andythenorth>but eh the Eddi route was worth it
06:30<V453000>I stand by the ideology that everything should be 8/8 or multiples
06:30<andythenorth>ideology ha
06:31<V453000>iz my own religion
06:31<andythenorth>we all have to have one
06:31<andythenorth>I wish the game didn’t show . length units :P
06:31<andythenorth>5.1 is untidy
06:31<andythenorth>4.9 is untidy
06:31<V453000>-> use 8/8 :) perfect
06:31<andythenorth>well yes
06:32<andythenorth>or 4/8
06:32<V453000>I might even make everything buyable only in 16/8 consists
06:32<V453000>sure 4/8 is nice for short vehicles
06:34<V453000>I want to also make all vehicle 1+2+2+2+1 = 8/8
06:34<V453000>wondering if it would be nicer to put 5 sprite consists in there
06:34<V453000>like, so the train would bend everywhere all the time
06:34<V453000>since I split the 16/8 into two halves already
06:34<V453000>splitting it into 10 parts could be even nicer
06:34<V453000>in other words, it would suggest less that it is split in half :D
06:35<V453000>the part which would be at the curve would just be bending
06:35<V453000>... would probably be seriously wtf
06:35<V453000>also quite a challenge to set up, but a LOT more consistent I feel
06:36<V453000>yay /monologue about ideas again
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06:38<V453000>I go have monologue with my wiki :D
06:38<V453000> /me writes wiki for himself and feels ok about it
06:38<V453000>no mental hospital necessary
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06:48<andythenorth>irc for monologues
06:48<andythenorth>I find it useful
06:48<NGC3982>V453000: I guess this is blatantly obvious somehwere else, but why is RAWR a NewGRF, and not a graphics pack?
06:48<andythenorth>sometimes people show up and point out where I’m wrong
06:49<V453000>NGC3982: for now it is a NewGRF, suitable to be used as a static newgrf. Eventually it could be transformed into a base set after it has all sprites ready for that
06:49<NGC3982>I see.
06:49<NGC3982>I guess creating a base set requires a lot more.
06:50<NGC3982>Not saying you have not already walked around the earth to create this one.
06:50<V453000>it will hopefully get there already :)
06:50*NGC3982 likes it.
06:50<V453000>:) nice to hear
06:50<V453000>just for illustration, I think landscape has about 3000 sprites ... the total of a base set is something around 10 000
06:51<V453000>but yeah, eventually :)
06:53<NGC3982>Good job, anyway.
06:55<V453000>thanks :) it has a lot of places to get better in though :)
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07:47<supermop>ok all points done
07:47<supermop>just filling in concrete
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11:05<samu>strange, I wasn't able to connect to IRC for 2 days
11:05<samu>suddenly I can
11:06<andythenorth>probably a bad ethernet cable?
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12:38<samu>is there an easy way to understand cargo distribution in practice? with examples?
12:39<@Alberth>how is it not understandable?
12:40<samu>i was transporting goods from a station to two towns
12:40<andythenorth>cdist has some quirks
12:40<samu>but.. i dunno, it's like the cargo wants to dictate where it wants to go and how
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12:41<andythenorth>strictly that’s not how it works, but I formed the same misunderstanding at first
12:41<@Alberth>that's the idea of cargo dist
12:41<samu>i had goods waiting at a town that was supposed to be its destination
12:41<samu>but had to go via itself
12:41<andythenorth>1. cargo will be assigned to routes in rough approximation to the estimated capacity on the route
12:42<andythenorth>2. there are some modifiers for distance etc
12:43<@Alberth>samu: if you change orders or add new lines, cargo dist needs to re-shuffle how cargo gets moved, that takes some time, and meanwhile you get these weird temporary cargo
12:43<@Alberth>it will sort itself out, if you wait a while
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12:43<andythenorth>3. cdist can do some odd backrouting
12:43<andythenorth>4. use ‘no loading’ at drop offs, to prevent bridging networks
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12:44<andythenorth>the effects of 3 can seem particularly odd, cargo can travel the wrong way
12:44<andythenorth>cdist probably only sees the link, and has no idea of map direction
12:45<andythenorth>so cargo for a destination can travel away from it
12:46<samu>okay, the server got asymmetric cargo for Goods
12:46<@Alberth>that makes sense
12:47<@Alberth>symmetric means you get more or less the same amount of cargo in both directions
12:47<@Alberth>works nicely for passengers between cities
12:47<samu>what are those directions?
12:48<@Alberth>lay a track between A and B A -> B one direction, B -> A the other direction
12:48<@Alberth>for cargo between A and B
12:49<@Alberth>with industry output, you normally don't have about the same amount of cargo to transport at both ends, so symmetric will transport nothing, or very little
12:49<@Alberth>asymmetric does not connect both directions
12:49<@Alberth>hi hy V
12:51<samu>I had it like this, Factory station, where trains would pick up goods, then a station at a town to the North of it, and another to the East. When one of the town stations stopped accepting Goods for a brief period, all those Goods went crazy, even when Goods became accepted again.
12:51<samu>i saw trains unloading goods with transfer / income at the same time
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12:52<@Alberth>yeah, cdist doesn't like it if acceptance gets turned off suddenly
12:52<andythenorth>cdist is much more understandable if you know about directed graphs :|
12:54<andythenorth>I’m not great at graph theory, but AIUI, freight cargo works better if you stick to a DAG
12:54<andythenorth>whereas PAX seems to work better on small worlds, maybe
12:54<samu>goods wanted then to go to town A via A, but the trains were only ordered to full load at factory and unoad at A if accepted, and the train was unloading/loading at both stations, it never really dropped the whole cargo at town without bringing some in it
12:55<samu>I never forced unload
12:55<samu>nor transfer
12:55<andythenorth>you need to prevent loading
12:55<andythenorth>otherwise you get unintended backloading from the destination
12:55<samu>no full loading then?
12:55<andythenorth>you want full loading at pick up
12:56<andythenorth>it helps if you picture links with arrows
12:56<andythenorth>pickup (full load) -> destination (no loading)
12:56<samu>ah, no loading :)
12:56<andythenorth>you might also need non-stop
12:56<andythenorth>if there are intermediate stations that accept goods
12:57<samu>the intermediate station was itself though :(
12:57<samu>let me try again, brb
12:58<samu>I didn't force no loading
12:58<samu>it was just going there
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12:59<V453000>I spewed monologous shit =D
13:01<andythenorth>iz plan
13:01<andythenorth>iz autoreft? o_O
13:02<V453000>I know, never say never but this is conclusive :P
13:03<V453000>I am most undecided whether to cut the 16/8 vehicle into 10 parts so every articulated part would get a visible sprite
13:03<V453000>ofc with depot sprites still being on the first part
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13:05<@Alberth>COOL DOOM
13:05<andythenorth>V453000: will you have a train called Hurt Me Plenty?
13:05<andythenorth>also Romero
13:05<andythenorth>and Carmack
13:06<andythenorth>maybe Daikatana
13:07<andythenorth>cacodemon train?
13:07<V453000>pinky perhapz
13:07<andythenorth>the possibilities are endless :P
13:08<V453000>the one in the website header is awesomely cute
13:08<andythenorth>toxic waste can train
13:09*andythenorth played a lot of DOOM
13:09<andythenorth>maybe you want to retitle? :P
13:09<andythenorth>otherwise I waste your time with suggestions
13:09<V453000>nay I like it :)
13:09<V453000>I had my fair share of doom as well
13:09<V453000>and, the flag train of the set will be the doombringer :P
13:09<@Alberth>it's a source of inspiration
13:09<V453000>relevance to nuts
13:13<samu>Go to, Go non-stop to, Go via, Go non-stop via - do these matter for delivering goods?
13:13<@Alberth>go versus go non-stop does
13:14<@Alberth>"go" means go to the destination, and stop at each station you encounter
13:14<@Alberth>"go non-stop" means don't stop at intermediate stations
13:15<@Alberth>"via" means (I think) that the final destination should also be skipped (like a waypoint), but I never tried that order, so not sure
13:18<andythenorth>“go non-stop to" is better for cdist, unless you definitely want links to intermediate stations
13:18<samu>what happens if a station stops accepting goods
13:18<samu>gonna try destroying some houses
13:19<@Alberth>depends on how you unload
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13:19<@Alberth>if you have unload if accepted, the cargo will stay on the train
13:19<@Alberth>if you force unloading, the cargo gets dumped onto the station, and stay there until you pick it up again
13:19<@Alberth>hi hi sir f
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13:32<samu>grr what happened yesterday isn't happening today
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13:33<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
13:33<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 15 minutes and 24 seconds ago: <andythenorth> “go non-stop to" is better for cdist, unless you definitely want links to intermediate stations
13:33<DanMacK>Gaaah just missed him, lol
13:35<samu>how long does it take for these crates of goods to disappear or change their destination preference. They want to go to a station that stopped accepting goods
13:35<V453000>he will back shortly most likely :P
13:36<samu>ah they just disappeared, spoke too early
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13:54<@Alberth>andy, it's safe again :)
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14:10<samu>so confusing
14:11<samu>if you can't see the screenshot, try the live stream
14:11<samu>look at the passengers
14:11<samu>is that really supposed to happen?
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14:26<samu>I'm lucky it's not transfer/cost
14:26<@Alberth>the red "to any station" ?
14:26<samu>no, look at where they wanna go
14:27<samu>all that split up
14:28<@Alberth>oh, no worries, the program knows how to handle it all
14:29<@Alberth>apparently you have several different services running between cities
14:29<samu>3 stations, 3 busses
14:29<samu>and still it manages to split into all that
14:30<@Alberth>select a different dropdown than "source - via - destination"
14:31<@Alberth>normally "via - destination" is more useful to see where they want to go
14:31<@Alberth>(ie which next stop)
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14:32<@Alberth>but yes, it looks good to me, at any station you seem to have new passengers wanting to leave, passengers from one station that want to continue to the other station, and passengers from the other station that want to go to the one station
14:33<@Alberth>ie 3 streams of passengers
14:34<@Alberth>this happens because your connection doesn't have enough capacity, so remaining cargo is routed by other ways
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14:38<samu>"via" = next stop, not necessarily the exact place it wants to go?
14:39<@Alberth>indeed, "destination" is the place where it wants to go
14:39<samu>I see
14:40<@Alberth>ie if you have several transfers, via and destination are different
14:40<samu>via C, to C
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14:40<@Alberth>those things are temporary when you change orders or add/remove routes
14:41<samu>I didn't touch it
14:41<samu>must I buy more buses?
14:41<samu>you say not enough capacity, it will fix itself with more buses?
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14:42<@Alberth>in theory it will, if buses can carry enough
14:42<samu>alright, gonna buy some more
14:42<@Alberth>passengers are a bit complicated often, as you get way too many very fast
14:46<V453000>some train sets have better amount of cargo capacity :P
14:49<@Alberth>pretty much all train sets have :)
14:51<samu>thanks albert
14:51<samu>I understand this a bit better
14:52<samu>the other day I had about 10 helicopters, 1 for each oilfield, but they all were returning to the same heliport
14:53<samu>the heliport had a giant split up of passengers/mail but now i see why
14:54<samu>helicopers didnt profit at all
14:54<samu>full loading took years sometimes
14:56<@Alberth>cdist distributes to all destinations that you have
14:56<@Alberth>with low amount of flow, and many destinations, full load is taking a long time then
14:56<samu>passengers from Oilfield A could want to go to Oilfield B even without any helicopter having such route set
14:57<samu>they would have to go through the heliport
14:57<samu>I see
14:57<@Alberth>they will
14:57<@Alberth>cargo dist works everywhere
14:57<@Alberth>not just where you think it should work :)
14:58<samu>another split up at Oilfield B
14:58<@Alberth>some people are annoyed by it, I like its surprises :)
14:58<samu>no wonder full loading was taking 5 years
14:58<@Alberth>oilfield is a source of passengers, and it can go to another oilfield through the central heliport
14:59<@Alberth>in fact it can go to all 9 other oilfields
14:59*andythenorth is +1 to cdist, although it has oddiities
14:59<@Alberth>the same happens at every oilfield
14:59<@Alberth>so passengers get nicely distributed between the fields :)
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15:00<@Alberth>full load fails in this situations, as you may be waiting at one side, while at the other side there are lots of people waiting
15:00<@Alberth>so typically you run a continuous service back and forth
15:01<@Alberth>or you could eg run passenger ships between oilfields
15:01<samu>I would do that, but I barely had passengers waiting, or if i had any, they wouldn't want to go into that helicopter
15:01<samu>not full loading
15:02<@Alberth>oilfields are not good passenger providers :)
15:06<@Alberth>but that's easily solved, add a transport link to some city :)
15:06<samu>I had the heliport
15:07<samu>it was in a town
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15:08<@Alberth>hmm, weird
15:08<@Alberth>maybe the town was small?
15:09<samu>it wasn't too big, about 1500-2000 population
15:09<samu>it was starting to develop
15:09<samu>but the srver had to restart :o
15:09<@Alberth>bummer :(
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15:21<andythenorth>Burma Horse?
15:22<@Alberth>it's nice to see those old steam engines are still being used
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15:39<frosch123>oh noes, someone took ownership of a fs task...
15:39<frosch123>now i will get at least 5 more mails of them trying to deassign themself
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16:17<DanMacK>Hey all
16:18<frosch123>too early
16:18<frosch123>andy is still here
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16:53<dreck>just asking for opinions sake but do you prefer separate wagons per cargo type and/or a universal wagon that refits to most cargos?
17:05<dreck>I'm guessing both? ^
17:05<Taede>so long as it has proper gfx for each cargotype
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17:05<Taede>i don't want to see cars hauled in a tanker for instance
17:06<dreck>taede of course..also nothing annoying than seeing wagons that look empty but is actually carrying cargos (seem to happen to various kinds of open wagons in some grfs)
17:07<dreck>cheers :)
17:07<andythenorth>you can haul everything in a box van
17:07<andythenorth>only one sprite needed
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: i generally prefer a open/closed/tank/... wagon set, each of the wagons refit to multiple cargos
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>but a generic wagon which refits to open/closed/tank/whatever based on which cargo it is refitted to might be fun in combination with autorefit (simulating shunting)
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17:18<dreck>hmm I forgot to think about that one too, refit per major category of cargos..cheers
17:18<andythenorth>depot sprite should be semi-transparent
17:18<andythenorth>for magic wagon
17:18<dreck>I'll see what I feel like code-wise and see from there
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17:22<samu>is it just me or the dark green land color used for the minimap is buggy?
17:22<samu>from 1,200 m to 1,400 the green goes darker
17:22<samu>not brighter
17:22<samu>or maybe it's my monitor?
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17:48<samu>what does it mean when a bus gets "Transfer: £xx / Income: £yy" in one go?
17:49<samu>and sometimes it's "Transfer: £xx / Cost: £yy"
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18:11<Eddi|zuHause>samu: "income" is for people who had this as destination station, "transfer" is when the people want to go on to a different station with another vehicle. "cost" is when the previous "transfer" overestimated the final income
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i always found the "cost" display misleading, because it doesn't actually deduct money from the bank
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18:28<samu>I see,makes sense
18:30<samu>Sometimes it's only "Transfer" and only "Cost" too, I've seen 4 different outcomes
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>sure, it would be silly to display "income: 0" or "transfer: 0"
18:32<dreck>thanks..I think I might go with your idea first eddi (re wagons)
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19:29<dreck>oh yeah now I remember why I asked about refit..
19:30<dreck>I know there could be some possible issues with gameplay visual (especially if you bought a wagon thinking it was good for one speed but found out that with the cargo you wanted it actually runs slower) but I take it that wagon refit could affect its maximum speed if wanting to tho right?
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19:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you probably shouldn't. for sanity's sake
19:35<dreck>yeah beside openttd doesn't have physics built in so noone would notice the superheavy cargo burning off the red hot axle bearings ;)
19:35<dreck>(silly idea I know)
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i never really got the UKRS way of making each wagon a different speed
19:36<dreck>also doing only 2kph uphill is another thing thats just a in-game thing for you
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>in my world, all wagons of the same generation have the same speed
19:36<dreck>eddi uk always had odd things so no comment
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think my generations are like 35/60/90/120
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>or something
19:39<dreck>the one small sane thing I've liked for myself gameplay-wise is brake systems tho..mainly re running a slow train with manual brakes or if you want to get ten wagons up to 70kph you'll have to either initially use a brakecar or later utilize airbraked type wagons instead
19:40<dreck>mm that sounds like a decent four generations of wagon there eddi
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>there might be 5 or 6 generations
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>after 1970 you don't find a lot of development anymore, except some niche high speed thingies for packaged stuff [mail]
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>or containers
19:45<dreck>1970+ hmm .. well I'll have to agree
19:45<dreck>there is still always some particular articlated wagonsets but these are relatively niche
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>passenger wagons have a similar problem with development shifting to MUs
19:48<dreck>the usa road-rail trailer thing is one rather interesting niche idea tho. problem for openttd is that openttd can't recognize how to physically move a wagon from the rail to the road :)
19:49<dreck>probably best for openttd to stick to the europe-style super-long speciality flatcars where lorries and/or only-the-trailer are parked onto it
19:51<dreck>I only found the shorter version but (just in case anyone here was wondering)
19:56<dreck>btw I don't have anything for or against them but sometimes an *MU is not always my favorite thing
19:57<dreck>especially regarding flexible consist for different times of day etc ... or just due to construction prices (hmm then again its no surprise that quite a lot of japan trains are made up of a healthy ratio of powered and unpowered pieces)
20:17<dreck>still have to clean up my locomotives list a bit but ah who cares...let it take as long as it need to :P
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 03 00:00:56 2015