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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-03

---Logopened Tue Feb 03 00:00:56 2015
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00:57<supermop>i think after a few more bits of road im just going to model coffee apparatus in stead
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01:07<Supercheese>So, a filter, a cone to hold the filter, and a carafe? That's my coffee apparatus
01:07<Supercheese>also a grinder, but that's ancillary
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01:43<supermop>need a 3d print some upgrades to my hand grinder
01:44<supermop>but i am envisioning some modular stand/bracket/tower system
01:45<supermop>i usually use v60 cone and kono carafe, but sometimes mix it up with an aeropress
01:45<supermop>but the aeropress looks cheesy
01:45<supermop>so i can make some glass and metal version, and have it mount in a small tower like a cold drip set up
01:46<supermop>switch out parts and use the same tower for cold brew, or to hold a cone, or to hold the ginder?
01:48<supermop>first step is get some thing to clamp grinder to wall or counter, then some gears to orient the crank vertically
01:48<supermop>then make it so other apparatus can mount into the same system
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03:18<@peter1138>Did someone mention coffee?
03:37<V453000>beer
03:37<V453000>java
03:37<V453000>vehicle parts
03:37<V453000>manufacturing supplies
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03:58<@planetmaker>moin
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04:19<Celestar>good day :)
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04:27<@planetmaker>o/
04:29<Xaroth|Work>o/
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04:58<__ln__>@seen Celestar
04:58<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 38 minutes and 26 seconds ago: <Celestar> good day :)
04:58<Celestar>?
04:58<__ln__>oh, hi :)
04:59<Celestar>how ya doing?
04:59<__ln__>nvm, i didn't notice you spoke already and wondered when the last time was
04:59<__ln__>i'm operating within normal parameters
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06:28<Sacro>omfg it's Celestar
06:29<Sacro>What next, DarkVater and Bjarni?
06:31<Celestar>haha :P
06:32<@planetmaker>Sacro, now, don't exagerate :P
06:32<Sacro>it'd be like 1998 in here
06:48-!-samu [~oftc-webi@po1-84-90-249-192.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
06:48<samu>hi
06:52-!-deniz1a [~kvirc@78.181.133.206] has joined #openttd
06:52<deniz1a>hello
06:53<deniz1a>what's a .grf file?
06:53<Sacro>deniz1a: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what%27s+a+grf+file&oq=what%27s+a+grf+file&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2071j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
06:54<deniz1a>why does openttd use a format from Microsoft GraphEdit?
06:55<Ketsuban>It doesn't.
06:55<deniz1a>but sacro said it does
06:56<deniz1a>are you calling sacro a liar?
06:56<Sacro>You're asking a question with many possible answers
06:56<deniz1a>ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files?
06:57<Ketsuban>Hysterical raisins.
06:57<Sacro>inefficiency
06:57<deniz1a>heh ok
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06:59<deniz1a>does .grf file include some other stuff?
07:00<deniz1a>wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface?
07:00<Ketsuban>Probably, but AIUI the devs don't want to break compatibility.
07:01<deniz1a>there could still be converters to old .grf files
07:01<deniz1a>and back probably?
07:03<deniz1a>there doesnt seem to be a feature request to replace .grf s with simple text and graphics files
07:06<deniz1a>so are you saying i should make this a feature request?
07:06<Ketsuban>Everyone is pretty happy with GRFs, all in all. Masochists can keep writing NFO files, the rest of us can learn NML, and the openttdcoop people can keep writing Makefiles that don't work on anyone else's computer and read like line noise.
07:07<Ketsuban>I may or may not be biased from personal experience trying to make a patch for one of their projects. :)
07:07<deniz1a>and why is there a special language just for openttd scripts?
07:07<Ketsuban>Hysterical raisins.
07:08<Ketsuban>The problem with your feature request is that your proposed text files would just be another kind of special language.
07:08<deniz1a>maybe we should break compatibility with hystery
07:08<Ketsuban>It's not like there's an ISO standard for transport simulation games.
07:08<deniz1a>there doesn't need to be. there are general scripting languages like lua or something else
07:09<Ketsuban>What are the pros of embedding Lua that counterbalance the cons of requiring new code be written and breaking compatibility with TTDPatch and all currently-available mods?
07:10<deniz1a>the advantage would be easier add-ons. they would just be graphic files and their accompanying text script files
07:10<deniz1a>you could directly see them
07:11<Ketsuban>If you write NML then you can directly see them in your source directory.
07:11<deniz1a>but arent they also made into .grf?
07:11<deniz1a>when i download a newgrf file i cant see its contents without special tools, right?
07:12<Ketsuban>Sure.
07:12<deniz1a>how?
07:12<Ketsuban>I dunno, I'm not into reverse-engineering other peoples' mods.
07:12<Ketsuban>But I'm okay with it being a modder's decision whether you get to see the human-readable resource files for their work or not.
07:12<deniz1a>what about your own? can you see the contents of your newgrf mods without any tools?
07:13<Ketsuban>Sure. http://github.com/Ketsuban/random-english-town-names
07:13<deniz1a>so the purpose of .grf is to obfuscate the code?
07:13<deniz1a>ok that's great but that's not a .grf file
07:14<Ketsuban>"Purpose" is misleading - it was originally to speed up access on 90s computers. That's the only relevant function it still has, yes.
07:14<Ketsuban>Yes, I use a compiler (nmlc) to produce the grf file.
07:14<Ketsuban>The same way if I write Rust code I use a compiler (rustc) to produce an executable.
07:14<deniz1a>so why is it even necessary to compile these addons
07:14<deniz1a>ok just to speed it up?
07:14<Ketsuban>Historical reasons. What I say three times is true.
07:15<deniz1a>but i guess that's not necessary with today's computers
07:15<Ketsuban>It's not, but the code is already there and there's a community set up to make compiling GRFs painless, so the opportunity cost for not using Lua or whatever is amortised.
07:16<deniz1a>but there could be converters for .grf to lua and new development could be done in lua
07:16<deniz1a>and the add-ons would be png+plain text
07:16<deniz1a>easier to see the contents and modify
07:17<Ketsuban>Except seeing the contents and modifying them is already easy. I can edit a plaintext NML file, and the graphics are PNG files.
07:18<Ketsuban>You're really just complaining it's mildly annoying to edit a mod you already got off Bananas. Open-source people would suggest you use the source they already made available, and closed-source people object to you wanting to mess with their code in the first place.
07:20<deniz1a>or python could also be used instead of lua
07:20<deniz1a>but i dont get the nml file when i doanload a newgrf. i only get .grf files
07:22<deniz1a>actually you can even compile python if you give types to variables and it runs almost as fast as c
07:22<deniz1a>it's called cython
07:23<deniz1a>so you could have the benefits of both: fast compiled runtime+easy readable text files
07:24<deniz1a>or no if you compile it you still dont get the source. but it could be like this: you download the source and the game compiles it the first time it uses the addon
07:26<@planetmaker>orudge, any news on http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=71543&start=40 date(s)?
07:26<deniz1a>and i think lua can also be compiled?
07:27<@planetmaker><deniz1a> wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface? <-- getting rid of some historical quirks would be nice; however it wouldn't really get simpler, if you want to have the possibilities NewGRFs have
07:28<deniz1a>wouldn't it be possible to have all newgrf features in a lua or python script?
07:30<@planetmaker>it would also be possible to rewrite OpenTTD to use a 3D engine. It would just need a few fulltime years of work
07:30<@planetmaker>and it wouldn't be OpenTTD anymore
07:30<deniz1a>i have already completed half the work needed for that
07:30<@planetmaker>loool, you do?
07:31<Eddi|zuHause><deniz1a> ok just to speed it up? <-- NewGRFs are already one of the slowest parts of the game, you want to make it even slower, for a non-existing benefit of "human-readability"?
07:31<deniz1a>yes. i have found a 3d model set for all openttd graphics
07:31<@planetmaker>no, you don't
07:32<@planetmaker>maybe for a base set. But not for all OpenTTD graphics
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: including all NewGRFs ever created?
07:32<deniz1a>zbase has 3d models of all the graphics
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: and even if it does, doesn't mean they're good.
07:32<@planetmaker>deniz1a, that's not the work I meant...
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07:32<@planetmaker>I talked about OpenTTD engine. Not the models
07:32<deniz1a>and since i've completed half the work, i'm taking a break
07:33<@planetmaker>frankly, you did no work on zBase.
07:33<deniz1a>it doesnt matter, important thing is it's done
07:34<@planetmaker>and re newGRFs: there does exist a complete language, two compilers for it, a nice interface... so why yet a 3rd one?
07:35<@planetmaker>AI and game scripts can be written in squirrel, so... there really is no benefit in using lua or python script for any newgrf related stuff
07:35<deniz1a>because it's a language specific to openttd. if a general language were used, getting new developers would be easier
07:35<deniz1a>squirrel is a lang?
07:35<b_jonas>deniz1a: python would probably be impossible because you couldn't run it sandboxed easily.
07:35<@planetmaker>it's an animal ;)
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>"there exists a solution" is a very mathematical way to adress a problem :p
07:36<@planetmaker>:)
07:36<@planetmaker>+1 @ Eddi|zuHause
07:36<deniz1a>oh eddi's here
07:36<deniz1a>Eddi|zuHause: good news, i have already completed half the work for 3d openttd
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: if you're a skilled developer, the language you program in doesn't matter a lot
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>squirrel was chosen because it's close to C++
07:38<deniz1a>that's true. but it would be better to design the game so that it uses general languages instead of a specific one
07:38<@planetmaker>deniz1a, if you are really interested in changing something, I strongly recommend, to get your hands dirty on real code than just bullshit talk
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's always a specific language.
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07:39<deniz1a>so why arent newgrfs also written in squirrel?
07:39<@planetmaker>your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented
07:39<deniz1a>and why develop a new lang nml?
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>because squirrel is not suited for what NewGRFs do.
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>neither is LUA
07:39<deniz1a>isn't squirrel a general purpose lang?
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and GRFs are not general-purpose
07:40<deniz1a>any general purpose lang should be able to do what newgrfs do
07:40<@planetmaker>with loads and loads of boilerplate
07:40<deniz1a>the specifics could be done in game code
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but they wouldn't be as good at that job
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>you wouldn't catch a random person off the street to cook in a 5-star restaurant
07:41<@planetmaker>hihi, I like the analogy of the "general purpose cook" :)
07:41<deniz1a>but if i knew how to catch one, i could have cooks for a life time
07:42<deniz1a>but you could have this: a master cook who can coordinate any number of general cooks
07:43<deniz1a>that master cook would be the game code and the general cooks would be any general scripting language
07:43<deniz1a>so you would only need to have one master cook and could then easily expand by finding general cooks
07:43<@planetmaker>OpenTTD does a quite decent job at being the 'master cook'
07:43<deniz1a>how's that analogy?
07:44<deniz1a>ok
07:44<@planetmaker>and the grf spec cook a decent job at describing how the NewGRF should work
07:44<@planetmaker>and similarly the GS and AI cooks
07:44<@planetmaker>anyhow, this is not going anywhere
07:44<deniz1a>but you can't see the recipe of the food you get in newgrf
07:45<@planetmaker>I do see that very well
07:45<deniz1a>but not the users. they only get .grf files
07:46<@planetmaker>users also don't see how a town grows or a tree or how a signal works or a whatever
07:46<deniz1a>those should also be in text config files
07:46<deniz1a>are those in compiled code?
07:46<@planetmaker>we can do that. And limit map size to 64x64 tiles.
07:47<deniz1a>what does that have to do with map size?
07:47<@planetmaker>you basically advocate an interpreted language. Go ahead. Rewrite OpenTTD in one. And enjoy the speed of execution
07:47<deniz1a>no i'm not advocating interpreted language. i say put those settings in text files and the compiled game reads from those
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's what an interpreted language is
07:48<deniz1a>no it's just some game parameters, not the game code or logic
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>"i don't advocate swimming, i'm just saying go in the water and move your arms"
07:49<@planetmaker>there is openttd.cfg. Thus we already do what you advocate, deniz1a ;)
07:49<@planetmaker>do you understand from it how path finding works?
07:49<@planetmaker>all parameters are there
07:49<deniz1a>ok then another task is completed!. i'm doing so much work!
07:50*planetmaker ponders to look up how ignore lists work in xchat
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>right-click->ignore :p
07:50<deniz1a>who are you going to ignore?
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>also: /ignore <mask>
07:52<@planetmaker>nah, not with right-click, Eddi|zuHause. There is only ban/kick/info
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>get a useful client :p
07:52<deniz1a>kvirc has ignore in right click menu
07:54<deniz1a>so who are you going to ignore?
07:55<deniz1a>guys?
07:56<deniz1a>it can't be me because my ideas are awesome, right?
07:57<@planetmaker><planetmaker> your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented
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07:57<deniz1a>i'll do that if i ever have time
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: do you contact car factories and ask them: "if you made your cars of wood, people could customize them with hammer and nails."
07:59<deniz1a>no but i would write angry mails to those companies that cover their engines with plastic covers
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>"wood is general purpose, and used by lots of other products"
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08:04*Ketsuban returns from lunch
08:05<Ketsuban>Nah, denizia has at no point suggested OpenTTD itself should be written in an interpreted language.
08:05<deniz1a>yes
08:05<Ketsuban>They're talking about the extent to which it's data-oriented.
08:06<deniz1a>i just said config variables should be in text files
08:07<Ketsuban>The advanced settings pane is a UI for openttd.cfg. They're arguing that other aspects should be plaintext rather than an opaque binary, and my point remains that's a lot of work for very little gain.
08:07<deniz1a>ok it was just a side point
08:08<deniz1a>but it would be better if the add-ons you download would be in plaintext form
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>better for who?
08:11<deniz1a>for everyone
08:11<Ketsuban>I'd argue that even if that's true, much of the benefit of plaintext mods is already provided by NML files, since most mods are released under the terms of the GPL.
08:11<deniz1a>but you have to get the source file separately. when you download a newgrf, you only get compiled .grf files
08:12<deniz1a>and you can't easily modify newgrfs
08:12<Ketsuban>You're yet to make a convincing argument for that actually being a drawback.
08:12<deniz1a>you have to get the source, modify it and then use some tools to generate .grf file
08:12<Ketsuban>Open-source people already provide a file you can easily compile yourself; closed-source people would rather you not edit it at all.
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes. because when you want to modify things, you know where to get the source files. and all other people benefit more from .grf because it's more efficient
08:13<deniz1a>is there a big performance difference between script and compiled newgrfs?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: about the difference of a PC vs. a mainframe needed to play the game.
08:14<Ketsuban>That's not a very helpful comparison. :P By the standards of the time when "mainframe" and "PC" still had meaning, we all have supercomputers.
08:15<deniz1a>for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set
08:16<Ketsuban>Um. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase Third or fourth result on Google for "openttd zbase".
08:16<deniz1a>actually you can already make a supercomputer at home. you have to connect multiple processors in parallel
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ketsuban: yes, but the 1000 times the computers got faster since 1994, you have 1000 times bigger maps and 1000 times more vehicles
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: except that openttd cannot ever use the parallel processors
08:17<deniz1a>yes. building the hardware is not enough, the programs should also be able to support parallel execution
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: the link to the source is right there on bananas.
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: sure, just solve one of the biggest problems in computer science of today.
08:19<deniz1a>added to my task list
08:19<deniz1a>or todo list
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08:19<@planetmaker>deniz1a, if you are unable to skim a readme of a package you are interested in for a link to its sources, I'm afraid, then also plain text files wouldn't help you.
08:20<@planetmaker>Yes, zBase comes with a readme, readable from ingame, with a link to its sources. It's even one of the *headings* in the readme
08:20<deniz1a>i wasnt looking for the source files, i just realized it's not in the newgrf file
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and you expect someone who wants text files for easier modification be able to read a text file? preposterous!
08:21<@planetmaker>yeah, I think I was presumptious
08:21<@planetmaker><deniz1a> for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set <-- and yes, you were, deniz1a
08:21<deniz1a>you should try being postsumptious
08:22<deniz1a>yes from the content download window you cant get the source
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you get a link to the source.
08:22<deniz1a>no
08:23<deniz1a>it says visit website and the page doesnt exist
08:23<deniz1a>isn't that postposterous?
08:25<deniz1a>preposterous has the prefixes pre and post in it!
08:25<deniz1a>so is it before or after the fact?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>then report that error of the missing website.
08:28<deniz1a>ok
08:28<deniz1a>where?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>on the website :p
08:29*Eddi|zuHause gets a "there's a hole in the bucket" vibe
08:29<deniz1a>how do i file a bug report on http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase?
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>probably have to log in
08:31<deniz1a>meh
08:31<deniz1a>can you tell them the link has zBase in it but it should be zbase
08:31<deniz1a>capital b makes the link incorrect
08:35<@planetmaker>so you have been lamenting 2 hours to tell us that http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zBase doesn't work (while http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase works)
08:36<deniz1a>was i not clear about that at the beginning?
08:36<@planetmaker>I can't answer that without insult
08:37<deniz1a>retort
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>backstab
08:38<deniz1a>sad face
08:38<deniz1a>"<deniz1a> ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files?" i thought you would get that the link was wrong from that sentence
08:39<deniz1a>but still having a special language just for openttd seems weird
08:39<samu>hey i have a question about cargo dist again
08:40<deniz1a>yes i love questions
08:40<samu>I have a helicopter trying to full loadpassengers at an airport, but those passengers are from another station
08:41<samu>now the airport also have some passengers that are going via any station to any station
08:41<samu>why won't the helicopter load those?
08:41<deniz1a>what kind of passengers are those?
08:41<deniz1a>they just want to go anywhere?
08:41<deniz1a>it doesn't?
08:41<samu>yes, I think that's the thing
08:41<samu>the helicopter is still trying to load
08:41<samu>from the other station
08:42<deniz1a>maybe that's a bug
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>you should avoid passengers "to any station"
08:42<deniz1a>yeah, they're trouble
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>they break your feeder systems and stuff
08:42<deniz1a>why would they? dont they get off at the first station?
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can try "unload all" orders
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>deniz1a: not when that station doesn't actually accept them
08:43<samu>I don't have transfer
08:43<deniz1a>stations have accept restrictions? oh you mean no passengers?
08:43<samu>they're transfered there though
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist turns all orders to "transfer" implicitly
08:43<deniz1a>yeah you get transfers automatically
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08:46<samu>gasp, nevermind, i'm looking at this wrong
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08:46<andythenorth>V453000: transition effects are Worst Thing Eva
08:46<andythenorth>don’t do it
08:46<samu>sorry, i have several windows open and trying to follow them all
08:46<samu>was looking at the wrong station
08:46<V453000>what are transition effects andy?
08:47<andythenorth>forums
08:47<andythenorth>it’s a method for making everything ugly
08:49<samu>so it happens there's no "any station" after all at this airport, that "any station" was from another airport. False alarm
08:49<samu>following all this is confusing
08:51<V453000>LOL XD
08:51<V453000>andythenorth: how would I even do that XD extra industry tiles? :D
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>so when does andythenorth learn that "forums" is a terrible location descriptor
08:51<V453000>newobjects?
08:51<V453000>Eddi I found it :P
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, i don't even get what that guy is asking for
08:52<V453000>so his location descriptor was top notch :D
08:52<V453000>I guess newobjects which transition from thing A to thing B
08:52<andythenorth>he wants holes in your ground tiles
08:52<V453000>for all combination, all slopes, everything
08:52<V453000>I dont think he knows what he wants :D
08:52<andythenorth>holes
08:53<samu>holes what?
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think what he means is that the edge of the ISR tile looks less obvious, because the whole ISR tile is not opaque and thus the ground shines through
08:54<V453000>ah right
08:55<samu>roads that deteriorate over time creating holes that slows down traffic?
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>samu: this is not sim city :p
08:55<samu>ok
08:57<deniz1a>simcity gets boring after a while
08:58<deniz1a>if openttd had some gameplay changes it could be the best game
08:58<V453000>hm so andythenorth why is it such a bad idea? :D doesnt sounds THAT bad to me
08:58<@planetmaker>V453000, you do that by providing two ground sprites basically
08:59<andythenorth>V453000: looks ugly
08:59<V453000>I already do that pm, the top one just is 100% fulltile :)
08:59<@planetmaker>first draw the normal grass as lowest ground sprite. Then draw on top the concrete one which has some transparent holes in it at the appropriate borders
08:59<@planetmaker>hehe :)
08:59<V453000>idk it doesnt have to look ugly I suppose :)
08:59<V453000>yeah
08:59<@planetmaker>and I do think he has a point that it can look better in some cases
08:59*andythenorth hates it
08:59<V453000>Probably
09:00*planetmaker loves it :)
09:00<andythenorth>one of the reasons I don’t use ISR ever
09:00<V453000>:0
09:00<V453000>andythenorth never uses ISR
09:00<V453000>infidel
09:00<deniz1a>what's isr?
09:00<andythenorth>can’t stand the sight of it
09:00<andythenorth>I was hoping to fix it, but the work is too much
09:00<V453000>looks like I got a job to do to annoy andy XD
09:01<@planetmaker>:)
09:01<@planetmaker>V453000, where did your station coder vanish to?
09:01<V453000>has work, is busy
09:01<V453000>has not stated that they arent coming back, but I dont think cats will be done anytime soon at all :)
09:02<@planetmaker>:( he started so nice on nml stations :)
09:02<@planetmaker>it all sounded promising
09:03<V453000>well it was the same a year ago :(
09:04<@planetmaker>hm, was it the same guy?
09:04<V453000>yes
09:07<andythenorth>was a she no?
09:07<V453000>yes
09:07<V453000>matters now :)
09:07<V453000>not
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10:14<samu>cargo flow legend is interesting
10:15<samu>the color is an estimate?
10:16<samu>that green to yellow to red
10:17<samu>red means I need more vehicles transporting on that route, right? it is not necessarily the amount of waiting cargo
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10:18<samu>wiki
10:20<samu>http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist
10:27<samu>yep, it's simple
10:28<samu>"The yellow and red shades are only shown if Cargodist is enabled for the selected cargoes and the link graph calculation has determined that the link has too little capacity for the amount of cargo to be transported there"
10:28<samu>this is too much information to digest all at once
10:28<samu>but ends up being simple
10:34<samu>I have a suggestion, add a tool tip when mousing over that legend
10:34<samu>explaining what to do
10:35<samu>when there's a light green or a dark red
10:35<samu>would be helpful to understand what the colors mean
10:38<samu>also, green at first gave me the wrong perception of it
10:38<samu>I was thinking, "so it's green, everything is good then"
10:38<samu>it's not quite that
10:39<samu>should have been in shades of blue
10:40<samu>the saturated point should be the brightest, I guess
10:43<samu>the over capacity point should be in a strong blue
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10:44<samu>as for the unused, hmm I have no idea, but something that doesn't resemble blue, red or white
10:46<samu>eww feels like im alone on here, well those are my ideas and first impressions of cargo flow, hope someone reads them
10:48<V453000>everybody does but nobody cares about them
10:52<andythenorth>we’re just amazed it works
10:53<V453000>just grab notepad++ and get working samu :)
10:54<samu>notepad++ hmm what am i gonna do?
10:55<V453000>code changes :)
11:00<samu>ugh, i rather not
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11:02<V453000>then go draw sprites :P
11:14<@Alberth>frez sprites are alwayz tasty
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11:54<samu>Oilfield is blocking another Oilfield. Ship can't dock there
11:54<samu>I thought this had been fixed
11:54<samu>:(
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12:06<Eddi|zuHause>how and where did you get that impression?
12:08<samu>the 1 tile border
12:09<samu>flat area around industries: 1
12:09<samu>tile
12:10<@Alberth>not enough to turn a ship
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>samu: i don't think that applies to oil rigs.
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>oil rigs have some special creation rules that make sure they are in a larger body of water. but this is like the border of a rectangle of 8x8 (or so) around the oil rig, so another oil rig may be within this ring
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>the "flat area" is just a check that it's flat. there may be other obstacles within this area
12:16<samu>I see t.t
12:19<samu>could it be fixed?
12:19-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd
12:19<samu>or improved
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. you could override the layout for the oil rig with one that checks more tiles for being water
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>this involves writing a NewGRF
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause>might be a nice beginner's exercise on industry NewGRFs
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13:22<@Alberth>o/
13:23<andythenorth>o/
13:23<NGC3982>_o
13:24<samu>hmm how do I do that
13:25<samu>beginner's exercise on industry newgrf
13:25<samu>if it's easy, i can try to do it
13:25<@Alberth>read about making newgrfs?
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13:27<samu>no, it's for the oil rig creation
13:27<samu>it should check for water tiles nearby
13:28<samu>to avoid blocking another oilrig
13:28<samu>change a layout or something, meh you help me?
13:29<@Alberth>suggesting to read about making newgrfs is not helping?
13:29<andythenorth>assuming default industries, not other newgrfs
13:30<andythenorth>(1) set up a newgrf that modifies existing oil rig
13:30<andythenorth>(2) copy the layouts (they can probably be found in nfo wiki) and add more magic tiles
13:30<andythenorth>done
13:30<@Alberth>(3) profit!
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>(4) ?
13:31<andythenorth>probably about 2 days work
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13:32<@Alberth>(4) world domination
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that would be (5) then
13:33<@Alberth>samu: the point with these journeys is that the end-result is not that important, it's the journey that counts
13:34<@Alberth>oh, you want to keep a ? item in, eh? :)
13:34<andythenorth>(6) release, put on forums, receive endless feature request
13:34<andythenorth>+s
13:34<samu>is this only going to work for oil rig vs oil rig?
13:35<samu>if I can actually manage to do it
13:35<andythenorth>this will only work for default oil rig, or oil rigs in newgrfs that redefine default (if your grf is after that one in the newgrf window)
13:36<samu>ah, so it has nothing to do with the "flat area around industries" setting?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it wouldn't be much of a running gag (or new-wordy: "meme") otherwise :p
13:36<@Alberth>fair enough :)
13:37<samu>ok let me try
13:37<samu>where is that wiki
13:37<@Alberth>and so the journey starts....
13:38<samu>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.nfo ?
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it will never work with other NewGRFs. each NewGRF operates on a new copy of the default industries
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13:43<samu>is this? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main
13:44<andythenorth>oic
13:58<andythenorth>meh
13:58*andythenorth waits for steam activation email
14:04<samu>i still couldn't figure out where to start
14:04<samu>well I downloaded NML
14:04<samu>now what do I need? Some layout of a Oil Rig thing?
14:05<@Alberth>step 1 of andy
14:06<samu>how?
14:08<@Alberth>be less concerned about the end result, and enjoying the journey of finding the answer to "how"
14:08<@Alberth>more concretely, start reading things, like the manual/wiki
14:08<samu>where do I find that layout? I must edit upon it
14:09<andythenorth>first you must make a basic grf that you can get into gam
14:09<andythenorth>game *
14:09<@Alberth>step 1 does not mention layout at all, afaik
14:09<andythenorth>it can have zero features
14:09<andythenorth>but it must compile and appear in game correctly
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14:15<Wolf01>hello
14:16<@Alberth>moin
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14:32<andythenorth>hmm
14:32<andythenorth>has FIRS makefile lost TEST_INDUSTRY support again?
14:32<andythenorth>it’s a compile time flag
14:35*andythenorth investigates
14:48<andythenorth>hmm works if the other args are supplied
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15:20<samu>C:\Users\Ricardo\Downloads\nml-v5465-windows-win32
15:20<samu>oops
15:20<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/fs6212.diff <- hmm
15:21<frosch123>anyone ever used the chat window width setting?
15:21<frosch123>it makes no sense to me :p
15:21<samu>←[Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
15:21<samu>i fail
15:21<frosch123>i wonder whether it should be replaced by some "percentage of screen width" settings instead
15:21<samu>double gui size doesn't double that
15:21<frosch123>some of the custom sizing things like multiplayer list likely need to be rewritten
15:22<frosch123>no idea actually why they are done like that
15:22<samu>so what am i doing wrong here? I tried to follow the tutorial
15:23<samu>undefined command "VERSION"
15:23<frosch123>oi, albert isn't here. am i alone then? :p
15:23<samu>i am here
15:24<V453000>yes frosch alone :P
15:24<samu>line 2 says
15:24<samu>STR_GRF_NAME :Oil Rig {VERSION}
15:26<+michi_cc>Don't skip the section about custom_tags.txt (or read it more carefully :)
15:29<samu>custom_tags.txt
15:29<samu>VERSION :1
15:29<samu>just that
15:29<samu>does it need name ?
15:30<samu>TITLE :
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15:36<samu>undefined command "VERSION" I dont know why
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15:40<samu>now I added a TITTLE :Oil Rig
15:41<samu>it still complains about undeficed command "VERSION"
15:41<samu>TITLE
15:41<samu>one t
15:41<samu>undefined*
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15:42<samu>wait, let me upload this thing
15:44<samu>https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!708&authkey=!AOjM0fTPgymtzzc&ithint=file%2czip
15:47<andythenorth>does it work?
15:47<andythenorth>o_O
15:47<samu>nop
15:47<samu>and i dont know why
15:48<samu>can you look at it
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15:52<+michi_cc>samu: custom_tags.txt: UTF-8 Unicode (with BOM) text, with CRLF line terminators
15:52<samu>what?
15:52<+michi_cc>samu: i.e. don't save your stuff with a byte order mark.
15:52<samu>what the hell is that? I just saved as UTF-8
15:53<+michi_cc>Use a real text editor then :)
15:53<samu>notepad?
15:54<+michi_cc>That would be a not-real text editor (which assumes UTF-8 with byte order mark, even if almost nothing except Microsoft does).
15:55<samu>hmm
15:55<samu>i will try the other options
15:55<+michi_cc>Notepad++ should work.
15:55<+michi_cc>It will do with and without BOM just fine.
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15:56<samu>there's ANSI, Unicode, Unicode Big Endian and UTF-8 to pick from in Notepad, would any of these work?
15:56<+michi_cc>ANSI, as long as you stay within a - z.
15:56<+michi_cc>It's a strict subset of UTF-8. Don't try accents though.
15:57<samu>ok
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15:57<samu>←[Kting output ...←[KK
15:58<samu>what does this mean? it worked?
15:58<samu>i see a oilrig.grf now
16:01<samu>i guess it's working
16:01<samu>it's listed in OpenTTD menu
16:06<samu>what must I do now?
16:10<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/diff?utf8=%E2%9C%93&rev_to=9879a2a88737&rev=d4bb7a333937 <- andythenorth: did you remove those strings from english.txt? why did eints delete them?
16:11<frosch123>hmm, that's a reverse diff... so they were added
16:11<frosch123>just eints failed to set an author
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16:14<samu>so, about that oil rig layout
16:14<samu>what to do?
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16:22<andythenorth>frosch123: dunno :)
16:33<samu>my grf lel
16:33<samu>http://1drv.ms/1BT1VWQ
16:34<samu>the tutorial is teaching me to create a truck, I don't want to do that :(
16:37<andythenorth>I’d say look at FIRS, but it’s way to complex
16:38<andythenorth>look at ogfx + industries
16:38<andythenorth>or manpower industries maybe
16:38<andythenorth>or manual industries (name?)
16:42<@planetmaker>g'evening
16:49<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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17:06*andythenorth needs a varaction 2 chain that loops by reading a counter in a register
17:06<andythenorth>and reads values from other registers, the register location incrementing 1 per loop
17:06<andythenorth>this is probably an Eddi thing :P
17:07<andythenorth>given that can’t loop back to same varact 2, this idea may be flawed
17:08<andythenorth>there is another, horrible, solution, but it might run out of varact 2 IDs maybe
17:08-!-tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08*andythenorth will try another day
17:13<andythenorth>what’s the varact 2 ID limit in nml? 255?
17:13<andythenorth>wiki doesn’t seem to know
17:14<Wolf01>'night
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17:14<frosch123>andythenorth: nml outputs it on every run :p
17:14<andythenorth>oh that nice new display :)
17:14<andythenorth>that is nice btw
17:15*andythenorth needs to find his glasses
17:16<andythenorth>frosch123: what’s it labelled as? Concurrent Action2 registers?
17:17<frosch123>spritesets = action1 ids
17:17<frosch123>spritegroups = varact2 ids
17:17<andythenorth>ah
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17:17<frosch123>action2 registers = temporary storage = complexity inside a single switch / spritelayout
17:18<andythenorth>yeah, that’s what I first assumed, was looking for some other action 2 stat as well
17:18<andythenorth>spritegroup makes sense now
17:19<andythenorth>the count reported for spritegroup, I assume is total in a single chain?
17:19<frosch123>it's the branching factor of a chain
17:19<frosch123>how flat can you punch the tree :)
17:20<andythenorth>so (theoretically), if I wanted a switch with 255 possible results (to other unique switches)
17:20<andythenorth>that’s just possible
17:20<frosch123>yes, but no switch after it can refer to some other switch before
17:21<frosch123>the 256 is a wall no other switch can pass over
17:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 255 is a hard limit
17:21<andythenorth>no switch anywhere, or no switch in that chain?
17:21<frosch123>grfv9 suggests to increase that limit btw :p
17:21*frosch123 hides
17:21<@planetmaker>:)
17:21<andythenorth>no switch anywhere
17:21*andythenorth sees how it works
17:22<andythenorth>much easier to model it as nfo :P
17:22<andythenorth>in my head
17:22<andythenorth>the pointer location got reset :P
17:22<andythenorth>that is going to be somewhat interesting to handle
17:23<andythenorth>can I reliably organise my nml input, placing switches in the file to workaround this?
17:23<andythenorth>or is that doomed?
17:23<frosch123>nml does not reorder switches
17:24<frosch123>(currently)
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17:24<frosch123>so, it's up to you to optimise the maximum active switches
17:24<andythenorth>so if I needed a massive 255 ID switch, and it’s the first chain in the file...
17:25<andythenorth>later (unrelated) chains still work
17:25<frosch123>yes
17:25<frosch123>anyway, it's likely more clever to compute results than using huge switches :)
17:25<andythenorth>this is only coming up because I’ve exceeded max industries
17:25<andythenorth>:P
17:25<andythenorth>so I have to reuse IDs
17:26<andythenorth>so all industries have to now share the same switches
17:26<andythenorth>all / most /s
17:26<andythenorth>fun times
17:27<andythenorth>so I have to stuff a uid into a register at the start of each switch chain
17:27<andythenorth>then switch on the uid later
17:27<andythenorth>uid can be > 64
17:27<andythenorth>problem solved
17:27<andythenorth>until I hit the switch limit
17:27<frosch123>why?
17:27<frosch123>just add a if and definite separate items
17:28<andythenorth>can’t if switches
17:28<frosch123>why?
17:28<andythenorth>spec
17:28<andythenorth>says
17:28<andythenorth>may not wrap action 2 of any kind in action D
17:28<andythenorth>may have misunderstood
17:28<frosch123>manual industries does if around items everywhere
17:28<andythenorth>misunderstanding would be optimum outcome here
17:28<frosch123>"item" is not action2
17:28<frosch123>"item" is action3
17:29*andythenorth thinks
17:29<andythenorth>I saw this problem in game, maybe I’m mis-solving it
17:31*andythenorth checks own code
17:31<andythenorth>when reusing IDs, I had wrong industry window text
17:32<andythenorth>but item with that cb isn’t in an if block
17:32<andythenorth>which would explain it
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17:33<andythenorth>props block is wrapped in if
17:33<andythenorth>graphics not
17:33<andythenorth>eh, problem solved if that works
17:34<andythenorth>thanks
17:35<samu>am i looking at the right place?
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17:35*andythenorth looking for bed
17:35<andythenorth>bye
17:35<samu>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:IndustryTiles
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17:42<samu>where would I place the 'item {' line?
17:43<samu>this block
17:43<samu>goes inside 'grf {' part?
17:43<Supercheese>http://pastebin.com/XjbTehww
17:43<Supercheese>Just by itself like that
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17:43<Supercheese>not within grf block
17:46<samu>ah, what is the difference between industry tiles and industries?
17:46<samu>features
17:46<samu>which one am I to edit?
17:47<Supercheese>Well, the industries feature will require tile layouts comprised of industry tile(s)
17:47<Supercheese>layout(s)
17:47<samu>oh, layouts
17:47<samu>ok it's tiles
17:48<Supercheese>So if defining a completely new industry, you need the item block for the industry, at least one tile layout, and at least one item block with an industrytile
17:51<@planetmaker>you can re-use the pre-defined default industry tiles. In principle
17:52<Supercheese>yes, but "completely new"
17:53<samu>The objective is, I wanted to modify the creation rules for oil rig, they shouldn't be able to spawn adjacent to other oil rigs
17:53<Supercheese>you could even use a default industry and just tweak it a bit
17:53<Supercheese>oh that may be what you want
17:53<samu>to leave a room of water for ships to dock
17:53<Supercheese>you can probably just override the properties
17:54<Supercheese>mightn't need to mess with tiles
17:54<Supercheese>could mess with location_check callback
17:55<samu>it's FEAT_INDUSTRIES then?
17:56<Supercheese>let me paste some code
17:56<Supercheese>sec
17:57<Supercheese>http://pastebin.com/fGHgHD8a
17:57<Supercheese>and then define the callback
17:58<Supercheese>which I believe must be done above that block in the file
18:01<Supercheese>which should look something like http://pastebin.com/ERk2sK0P
18:02<Supercheese>where you can change the 6 to whatever value
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18:02<Supercheese>note I have not checked any of this code, just my initial hunch
18:04<Supercheese>Hmm, maybe I should be using the ottdcoop paste...
18:04<Supercheese>oh well
18:04<samu>i believe there's two ways for doing this
18:05<samu>make the oil rig fatter to occupy more water tiles to let ships docks when another one is spawning nearby
18:05<samu>or alter the rules to the oil rig
18:05<samu>upon creaton
18:05<samu>which one is better?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think changing the layout is easier
18:06<samu>or am I missing something I'm not aware
18:06<Supercheese>the callback method would probably take fewer lines of code
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>changing the creation rules needs some learning about how the NewGRF logic works
18:06<Supercheese>although I'm not sure
18:07<Supercheese>and not that that's an imperative metric...
18:07<samu>how would a ship go into that tile?
18:08<samu>it's a station
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>the ship goes adjacent to the station tile
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18:12<samu>if i increase the oil rig size with one more tile, the one in front of the station, can i configure that tile to allow ships to go into it? gah, this is starting to look complicated
18:12<samu>a path_map
18:12<samu>kind of thing
18:12<samu>pathable terrain
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the tiles are special placeholders for construcion. after construction they are plain water tiles
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause>they are not actually part of the resulting industry
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18:41<samu>aha, here it is the thing
18:41<samu>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/IndustryDefaultProps
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18:46<dreck>hi
18:47<dreck>I know its a bit unrelated but hmm any of you know if 4-axle trucks (versus the more common 2- and 3-axles) were ever used on anything outside oversized/transformer load flatcars?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>oversized/flatcars can have 12 axles or more
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, i have no helpful information...
18:52<samu>Oil rigs are slightly special industries, since they have industry "tile" FFh, which doesn't create anything on the landscape, but the tile is still checked, and construction fails if it isn't a clear water tile.
18:52<samu>there is a xx behind the oil rig
18:52<samu>are you looking at it?
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that only affects the new oil rig, existing oil rigs might still be blocked this way
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>replicate the xx around the whole oil rig to prevent this
18:55<samu>oh, other question, where can I open this to edit it
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>what are you hoping to edit?
18:55<samu>must i create one from scratch
18:56<samu>put xx around
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>this must go into your NewGRF
18:56<dreck>eddi yeah there are some big monster of transformer carriers like hows THIS? http://zierke.com/shasta_route/pics/schnabel.jpg
18:56<samu>:)
18:56<dreck>heh
18:57<samu>ah, so it must be copy pasted, then adjust
18:57<samu>grr, what exactly am I copying, lol sorry for so many questions
18:58<dreck>heh samu well sometimes you just learn by trial and error right? :)
18:58<dreck>thats somewhat why I like grfcodec...plop my grf into the game and if no errors or bugs then I know I got it
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, the syntax will be a bit different, so i'm not sure what copying would achieve
18:58<samu>i want to pick the original footprint, and edit from it
18:59<samu>oh, it's a syntax
18:59<samu>great :o
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19:04<samu>what does the [] in the grid mean? the [18] thing
19:04<samu>that's not where the station is
19:05<samu>the north corner is not [18], it's 19
19:06<samu>oh crap, i mean 1A
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19:06<samu>that's also where the station is, i believe, if im interpreting this correctly
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>north is not where you think it is
19:07<samu>station is located at 1A? at least when I observe on the minimap, that's where it is
19:08<samu>then is it simulating an invisible docks?
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:08<samu>1A, then [18], then water
19:08<samu>that water to the left of [18] is where the ship dicks
19:08<samu>oops docks
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>no
19:09<samu>no? yes
19:09<dreck>well samu how else did it have that not-company-owned station name hoving above the oilrig you know, right? ;)
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>the ship docks where the "xx" is
19:09<dreck>same thing used by the fishing ground in mb and andy's industry grfs
19:09<samu>no, that's not there
19:09<samu>are you sure? doesn't make sense then, when i look at the others
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's just mirrored and rotated in a weird way
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19:15<samu>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Tilelayout :) I'm getting there
19:17<samu>so i need to write all those tiles? even the blank ones? or just add the "xx"?
19:17<samu>ones
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can skip the empty tiles
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>for the "xx" tiles you write "clear", for the other tiles, you write 0x18 etc.
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20:20<samu>anyone here?
20:21*dreck pokes samu with some pixels?
20:21<dreck>heh
20:22<samu>http://pastebin.com/zknumKPf
20:22<samu>is it something like this?
20:22<samu>i just tried to figure out the syntax for the first line but no idea what goes there
20:30<Sylf>for nml code sharing, try https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ - it supports nml syntax highlighting :)
20:37<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptlav8dzn
20:37<samu>so... whatever
20:38<samu>what goes into the first line?
20:38<samu>and is the rest to be like that?
20:39<Sylf>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Tilelayout
20:39<Sylf>so yes, it's like that
20:40<Sylf>of course, if you set all tiles to "clear", you won't have anything on the map
20:40<samu>hmm so what do i do with this piece of text?
20:40<samu>it's for the oil rig
20:40<Sylf>let me go read the backlog first
20:41<Sylf>that chunk of code by itself doesn't tell me anything
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20:43<Sylf>you're trying to recreate oil rig?
20:43<samu>yes, but with those "xx" tiles around it
20:43<Supercheese>trying to prevent oil rigs from being created too close to each other
20:44<Sylf>so, we can reuse the default oil rig sprites
20:44<samu>yes
20:45<Sylf>but in order to use them, I think the sprites need to be defined, and specify that you're using those graphics
20:45<samu>that's the part I don't understand
20:45<Supercheese>he can use the override & substitute
20:45<samu>i know i am missing something
20:45<Supercheese>to re-use the sprites
20:46-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6D0B6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>samu: sprites are used by IndustryTile, not by Industry
20:47<Sylf>it would be easiest to download the opengfx+ industries source and study that
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>samu: since you're reusing the default IndustryTiles, you don't need to add anything
20:48<samu>my head is attempting to decipher what you're telling me...
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>samu: however, your tilelayout must be used by an actual industry that you override
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20:50<dreck>sorry to ask this (especially to eddi perhaps) but can you set a single wagon to have different capacity per assigned cargotypes or its a bit complex to bother doing that code-wise? (eg it could be 20 tonnes of coal but only 17 tonnes of ore for example)
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: there's a capacity callback for that
20:50<Sylf>OpenGFX+ trains might do some of that - not too sure
20:51<Sylf>On flat car, only some steel, but much more capacity for wood, etc
20:52<Supercheese>yeah, vary capacity based on cargo_type_in_veh
20:52<dreck>oh, geeze I was thinking vars not callbacks..I see it now
20:52<dreck>thanks a lot -_-
20:55<dreck>supercheese nothing like an entire wagonload of one cargo weighting the same as one single crate of machines in the same wagon :)
20:55<dreck>(just saying..I dunno why I had to heh)
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>1 ton of feathers weighs the same as 1 ton of steel
20:58<Supercheese>1 ton of metal does not weigh the same as one bag of mail
20:58<Supercheese>or bale of wool
20:58<Supercheese>or crate of farm supplies, etc.
20:58<samu>im reading here, http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Property
20:59<samu>item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES?
21:00<Supercheese>I guess the cargo weight parameter sort of compensates for the discrepancies
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>samu: so what is the question?
21:00<samu>no idea i really don't know
21:01<samu>i don't understand what I need to look for
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>samu: so maybe you should read the tutorial?
21:01<samu>i don't have time now
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have time either.
21:02<samu>i mean i have to go sleep
21:02<samu>is it far from finished?
21:03<Supercheese>NML tutorial is great
21:03<samu>wanted to finish this part today and continue tomorrow
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>about 10 minutes if you're skilled
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>about 2 hours if you're not
21:03<samu>ouch, i really have to go though, sorry, parents are hurrying me
21:05<dreck>supercheese you're exactly right about everything you just said about weight :)
21:05<samu>well, cyas all, thx for the help so far. I'll do the rest tomorrow, promise.
21:06<dreck>but anyway think I pretty much got no pending issues left ... going see when I'll finish the first draft of the vehicles list before passing it onto friend for coding
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21:33<dreck>anyway break for bedtime
21:34*dreck lets several random wagons loose in here
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21:38<Eddi|zuHause>how or why is the forum backup running at this time?
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22:36<Sylf>the forum backup is sure taking a long time tonight
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22:42<supermop>yo
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