| --- | Log | opened Tue Feb 03 00:00:56 2015 |
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| 00:57 | <supermop> | i think after a few more bits of road im just going to model coffee apparatus in stead |
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| 01:07 | <Supercheese> | So, a filter, a cone to hold the filter, and a carafe? That's my coffee apparatus |
| 01:07 | <Supercheese> | also a grinder, but that's ancillary |
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| 01:43 | <supermop> | need a 3d print some upgrades to my hand grinder |
| 01:44 | <supermop> | but i am envisioning some modular stand/bracket/tower system |
| 01:45 | <supermop> | i usually use v60 cone and kono carafe, but sometimes mix it up with an aeropress |
| 01:45 | <supermop> | but the aeropress looks cheesy |
| 01:45 | <supermop> | so i can make some glass and metal version, and have it mount in a small tower like a cold drip set up |
| 01:46 | <supermop> | switch out parts and use the same tower for cold brew, or to hold a cone, or to hold the ginder? |
| 01:48 | <supermop> | first step is get some thing to clamp grinder to wall or counter, then some gears to orient the crank vertically |
| 01:48 | <supermop> | then make it so other apparatus can mount into the same system |
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| 03:18 | <@peter1138> | Did someone mention coffee? |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | beer |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | java |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | vehicle parts |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | manufacturing supplies |
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| 03:58 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
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| 04:19 | <Celestar> | good day :) |
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| 04:27 | <@planetmaker> | o/ |
| 04:29 | <Xaroth|Work> | o/ |
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| 04:58 | <__ln__> | @seen Celestar |
| 04:58 | <@DorpsGek> | __ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 38 minutes and 26 seconds ago: <Celestar> good day :) |
| 04:58 | <Celestar> | ? |
| 04:58 | <__ln__> | oh, hi :) |
| 04:59 | <Celestar> | how ya doing? |
| 04:59 | <__ln__> | nvm, i didn't notice you spoke already and wondered when the last time was |
| 04:59 | <__ln__> | i'm operating within normal parameters |
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| 06:28 | <Sacro> | omfg it's Celestar |
| 06:29 | <Sacro> | What next, DarkVater and Bjarni? |
| 06:31 | <Celestar> | haha :P |
| 06:32 | <@planetmaker> | Sacro, now, don't exagerate :P |
| 06:32 | <Sacro> | it'd be like 1998 in here |
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| 06:48 | <samu> | hi |
| 06:52 | -!- | deniz1a [~kvirc@78.181.133.206] has joined #openttd |
| 06:52 | <deniz1a> | hello |
| 06:53 | <deniz1a> | what's a .grf file? |
| 06:53 | <Sacro> | deniz1a: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what%27s+a+grf+file&oq=what%27s+a+grf+file&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2071j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8 |
| 06:54 | <deniz1a> | why does openttd use a format from Microsoft GraphEdit? |
| 06:55 | <Ketsuban> | It doesn't. |
| 06:55 | <deniz1a> | but sacro said it does |
| 06:56 | <deniz1a> | are you calling sacro a liar? |
| 06:56 | <Sacro> | You're asking a question with many possible answers |
| 06:56 | <deniz1a> | ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files? |
| 06:57 | <Ketsuban> | Hysterical raisins. |
| 06:57 | <Sacro> | inefficiency |
| 06:57 | <deniz1a> | heh ok |
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| 06:59 | <deniz1a> | does .grf file include some other stuff? |
| 07:00 | <deniz1a> | wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface? |
| 07:00 | <Ketsuban> | Probably, but AIUI the devs don't want to break compatibility. |
| 07:01 | <deniz1a> | there could still be converters to old .grf files |
| 07:01 | <deniz1a> | and back probably? |
| 07:03 | <deniz1a> | there doesnt seem to be a feature request to replace .grf s with simple text and graphics files |
| 07:06 | <deniz1a> | so are you saying i should make this a feature request? |
| 07:06 | <Ketsuban> | Everyone is pretty happy with GRFs, all in all. Masochists can keep writing NFO files, the rest of us can learn NML, and the openttdcoop people can keep writing Makefiles that don't work on anyone else's computer and read like line noise. |
| 07:07 | <Ketsuban> | I may or may not be biased from personal experience trying to make a patch for one of their projects. :) |
| 07:07 | <deniz1a> | and why is there a special language just for openttd scripts? |
| 07:07 | <Ketsuban> | Hysterical raisins. |
| 07:08 | <Ketsuban> | The problem with your feature request is that your proposed text files would just be another kind of special language. |
| 07:08 | <deniz1a> | maybe we should break compatibility with hystery |
| 07:08 | <Ketsuban> | It's not like there's an ISO standard for transport simulation games. |
| 07:08 | <deniz1a> | there doesn't need to be. there are general scripting languages like lua or something else |
| 07:09 | <Ketsuban> | What are the pros of embedding Lua that counterbalance the cons of requiring new code be written and breaking compatibility with TTDPatch and all currently-available mods? |
| 07:10 | <deniz1a> | the advantage would be easier add-ons. they would just be graphic files and their accompanying text script files |
| 07:10 | <deniz1a> | you could directly see them |
| 07:11 | <Ketsuban> | If you write NML then you can directly see them in your source directory. |
| 07:11 | <deniz1a> | but arent they also made into .grf? |
| 07:11 | <deniz1a> | when i download a newgrf file i cant see its contents without special tools, right? |
| 07:12 | <Ketsuban> | Sure. |
| 07:12 | <deniz1a> | how? |
| 07:12 | <Ketsuban> | I dunno, I'm not into reverse-engineering other peoples' mods. |
| 07:12 | <Ketsuban> | But I'm okay with it being a modder's decision whether you get to see the human-readable resource files for their work or not. |
| 07:12 | <deniz1a> | what about your own? can you see the contents of your newgrf mods without any tools? |
| 07:13 | <Ketsuban> | Sure. http://github.com/Ketsuban/random-english-town-names |
| 07:13 | <deniz1a> | so the purpose of .grf is to obfuscate the code? |
| 07:13 | <deniz1a> | ok that's great but that's not a .grf file |
| 07:14 | <Ketsuban> | "Purpose" is misleading - it was originally to speed up access on 90s computers. That's the only relevant function it still has, yes. |
| 07:14 | <Ketsuban> | Yes, I use a compiler (nmlc) to produce the grf file. |
| 07:14 | <Ketsuban> | The same way if I write Rust code I use a compiler (rustc) to produce an executable. |
| 07:14 | <deniz1a> | so why is it even necessary to compile these addons |
| 07:14 | <deniz1a> | ok just to speed it up? |
| 07:14 | <Ketsuban> | Historical reasons. What I say three times is true. |
| 07:15 | <deniz1a> | but i guess that's not necessary with today's computers |
| 07:15 | <Ketsuban> | It's not, but the code is already there and there's a community set up to make compiling GRFs painless, so the opportunity cost for not using Lua or whatever is amortised. |
| 07:16 | <deniz1a> | but there could be converters for .grf to lua and new development could be done in lua |
| 07:16 | <deniz1a> | and the add-ons would be png+plain text |
| 07:16 | <deniz1a> | easier to see the contents and modify |
| 07:17 | <Ketsuban> | Except seeing the contents and modifying them is already easy. I can edit a plaintext NML file, and the graphics are PNG files. |
| 07:18 | <Ketsuban> | You're really just complaining it's mildly annoying to edit a mod you already got off Bananas. Open-source people would suggest you use the source they already made available, and closed-source people object to you wanting to mess with their code in the first place. |
| 07:20 | <deniz1a> | or python could also be used instead of lua |
| 07:20 | <deniz1a> | but i dont get the nml file when i doanload a newgrf. i only get .grf files |
| 07:22 | <deniz1a> | actually you can even compile python if you give types to variables and it runs almost as fast as c |
| 07:22 | <deniz1a> | it's called cython |
| 07:23 | <deniz1a> | so you could have the benefits of both: fast compiled runtime+easy readable text files |
| 07:24 | <deniz1a> | or no if you compile it you still dont get the source. but it could be like this: you download the source and the game compiles it the first time it uses the addon |
| 07:26 | <@planetmaker> | orudge, any news on http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=71543&start=40 date(s)? |
| 07:26 | <deniz1a> | and i think lua can also be compiled? |
| 07:27 | <@planetmaker> | <deniz1a> wouldnt it be better to simplify the addon interface? <-- getting rid of some historical quirks would be nice; however it wouldn't really get simpler, if you want to have the possibilities NewGRFs have |
| 07:28 | <deniz1a> | wouldn't it be possible to have all newgrf features in a lua or python script? |
| 07:30 | <@planetmaker> | it would also be possible to rewrite OpenTTD to use a 3D engine. It would just need a few fulltime years of work |
| 07:30 | <@planetmaker> | and it wouldn't be OpenTTD anymore |
| 07:30 | <deniz1a> | i have already completed half the work needed for that |
| 07:30 | <@planetmaker> | loool, you do? |
| 07:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <deniz1a> ok just to speed it up? <-- NewGRFs are already one of the slowest parts of the game, you want to make it even slower, for a non-existing benefit of "human-readability"? |
| 07:31 | <deniz1a> | yes. i have found a 3d model set for all openttd graphics |
| 07:31 | <@planetmaker> | no, you don't |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | maybe for a base set. But not for all OpenTTD graphics |
| 07:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: including all NewGRFs ever created? |
| 07:32 | <deniz1a> | zbase has 3d models of all the graphics |
| 07:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: and even if it does, doesn't mean they're good. |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | deniz1a, that's not the work I meant... |
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| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | I talked about OpenTTD engine. Not the models |
| 07:32 | <deniz1a> | and since i've completed half the work, i'm taking a break |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | frankly, you did no work on zBase. |
| 07:33 | <deniz1a> | it doesnt matter, important thing is it's done |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | and re newGRFs: there does exist a complete language, two compilers for it, a nice interface... so why yet a 3rd one? |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | AI and game scripts can be written in squirrel, so... there really is no benefit in using lua or python script for any newgrf related stuff |
| 07:35 | <deniz1a> | because it's a language specific to openttd. if a general language were used, getting new developers would be easier |
| 07:35 | <deniz1a> | squirrel is a lang? |
| 07:35 | <b_jonas> | deniz1a: python would probably be impossible because you couldn't run it sandboxed easily. |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | it's an animal ;) |
| 07:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "there exists a solution" is a very mathematical way to adress a problem :p |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | +1 @ Eddi|zuHause |
| 07:36 | <deniz1a> | oh eddi's here |
| 07:36 | <deniz1a> | Eddi|zuHause: good news, i have already completed half the work for 3d openttd |
| 07:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: if you're a skilled developer, the language you program in doesn't matter a lot |
| 07:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | squirrel was chosen because it's close to C++ |
| 07:38 | <deniz1a> | that's true. but it would be better to design the game so that it uses general languages instead of a specific one |
| 07:38 | <@planetmaker> | deniz1a, if you are really interested in changing something, I strongly recommend, to get your hands dirty on real code than just bullshit talk |
| 07:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's always a specific language. |
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| 07:39 | <deniz1a> | so why arent newgrfs also written in squirrel? |
| 07:39 | <@planetmaker> | your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented |
| 07:39 | <deniz1a> | and why develop a new lang nml? |
| 07:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because squirrel is not suited for what NewGRFs do. |
| 07:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | neither is LUA |
| 07:39 | <deniz1a> | isn't squirrel a general purpose lang? |
| 07:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, and GRFs are not general-purpose |
| 07:40 | <deniz1a> | any general purpose lang should be able to do what newgrfs do |
| 07:40 | <@planetmaker> | with loads and loads of boilerplate |
| 07:40 | <deniz1a> | the specifics could be done in game code |
| 07:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe, but they wouldn't be as good at that job |
| 07:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you wouldn't catch a random person off the street to cook in a 5-star restaurant |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | hihi, I like the analogy of the "general purpose cook" :) |
| 07:41 | <deniz1a> | but if i knew how to catch one, i could have cooks for a life time |
| 07:42 | <deniz1a> | but you could have this: a master cook who can coordinate any number of general cooks |
| 07:43 | <deniz1a> | that master cook would be the game code and the general cooks would be any general scripting language |
| 07:43 | <deniz1a> | so you would only need to have one master cook and could then easily expand by finding general cooks |
| 07:43 | <@planetmaker> | OpenTTD does a quite decent job at being the 'master cook' |
| 07:43 | <deniz1a> | how's that analogy? |
| 07:44 | <deniz1a> | ok |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | and the grf spec cook a decent job at describing how the NewGRF should work |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | and similarly the GS and AI cooks |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | anyhow, this is not going anywhere |
| 07:44 | <deniz1a> | but you can't see the recipe of the food you get in newgrf |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | I do see that very well |
| 07:45 | <deniz1a> | but not the users. they only get .grf files |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | users also don't see how a town grows or a tree or how a signal works or a whatever |
| 07:46 | <deniz1a> | those should also be in text config files |
| 07:46 | <deniz1a> | are those in compiled code? |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | we can do that. And limit map size to 64x64 tiles. |
| 07:47 | <deniz1a> | what does that have to do with map size? |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | you basically advocate an interpreted language. Go ahead. Rewrite OpenTTD in one. And enjoy the speed of execution |
| 07:47 | <deniz1a> | no i'm not advocating interpreted language. i say put those settings in text files and the compiled game reads from those |
| 07:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's what an interpreted language is |
| 07:48 | <deniz1a> | no it's just some game parameters, not the game code or logic |
| 07:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "i don't advocate swimming, i'm just saying go in the water and move your arms" |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | there is openttd.cfg. Thus we already do what you advocate, deniz1a ;) |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | do you understand from it how path finding works? |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | all parameters are there |
| 07:49 | <deniz1a> | ok then another task is completed!. i'm doing so much work! |
| 07:50 | * | planetmaker ponders to look up how ignore lists work in xchat |
| 07:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | right-click->ignore :p |
| 07:50 | <deniz1a> | who are you going to ignore? |
| 07:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also: /ignore <mask> |
| 07:52 | <@planetmaker> | nah, not with right-click, Eddi|zuHause. There is only ban/kick/info |
| 07:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | get a useful client :p |
| 07:52 | <deniz1a> | kvirc has ignore in right click menu |
| 07:54 | <deniz1a> | so who are you going to ignore? |
| 07:55 | <deniz1a> | guys? |
| 07:56 | <deniz1a> | it can't be me because my ideas are awesome, right? |
| 07:57 | <@planetmaker> | <planetmaker> your discussion base would profit a lot, if you learned a few basics of how OpenTTD works internally and how its APIs for NewGRF, GS and AI are implemented |
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| 07:57 | <deniz1a> | i'll do that if i ever have time |
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| 07:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: do you contact car factories and ask them: "if you made your cars of wood, people could customize them with hammer and nails." |
| 07:59 | <deniz1a> | no but i would write angry mails to those companies that cover their engines with plastic covers |
| 07:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "wood is general purpose, and used by lots of other products" |
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| 08:04 | * | Ketsuban returns from lunch |
| 08:05 | <Ketsuban> | Nah, denizia has at no point suggested OpenTTD itself should be written in an interpreted language. |
| 08:05 | <deniz1a> | yes |
| 08:05 | <Ketsuban> | They're talking about the extent to which it's data-oriented. |
| 08:06 | <deniz1a> | i just said config variables should be in text files |
| 08:07 | <Ketsuban> | The advanced settings pane is a UI for openttd.cfg. They're arguing that other aspects should be plaintext rather than an opaque binary, and my point remains that's a lot of work for very little gain. |
| 08:07 | <deniz1a> | ok it was just a side point |
| 08:08 | <deniz1a> | but it would be better if the add-ons you download would be in plaintext form |
| 08:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | better for who? |
| 08:11 | <deniz1a> | for everyone |
| 08:11 | <Ketsuban> | I'd argue that even if that's true, much of the benefit of plaintext mods is already provided by NML files, since most mods are released under the terms of the GPL. |
| 08:11 | <deniz1a> | but you have to get the source file separately. when you download a newgrf, you only get compiled .grf files |
| 08:12 | <deniz1a> | and you can't easily modify newgrfs |
| 08:12 | <Ketsuban> | You're yet to make a convincing argument for that actually being a drawback. |
| 08:12 | <deniz1a> | you have to get the source, modify it and then use some tools to generate .grf file |
| 08:12 | <Ketsuban> | Open-source people already provide a file you can easily compile yourself; closed-source people would rather you not edit it at all. |
| 08:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. because when you want to modify things, you know where to get the source files. and all other people benefit more from .grf because it's more efficient |
| 08:13 | <deniz1a> | is there a big performance difference between script and compiled newgrfs? |
| 08:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: about the difference of a PC vs. a mainframe needed to play the game. |
| 08:14 | <Ketsuban> | That's not a very helpful comparison. :P By the standards of the time when "mainframe" and "PC" still had meaning, we all have supercomputers. |
| 08:15 | <deniz1a> | for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set |
| 08:16 | <Ketsuban> | Um. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase Third or fourth result on Google for "openttd zbase". |
| 08:16 | <deniz1a> | actually you can already make a supercomputer at home. you have to connect multiple processors in parallel |
| 08:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ketsuban: yes, but the 1000 times the computers got faster since 1994, you have 1000 times bigger maps and 1000 times more vehicles |
| 08:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: except that openttd cannot ever use the parallel processors |
| 08:17 | <deniz1a> | yes. building the hardware is not enough, the programs should also be able to support parallel execution |
| 08:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: the link to the source is right there on bananas. |
| 08:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: sure, just solve one of the biggest problems in computer science of today. |
| 08:19 | <deniz1a> | added to my task list |
| 08:19 | <deniz1a> | or todo list |
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| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | deniz1a, if you are unable to skim a readme of a package you are interested in for a link to its sources, I'm afraid, then also plain text files wouldn't help you. |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | Yes, zBase comes with a readme, readable from ingame, with a link to its sources. It's even one of the *headings* in the readme |
| 08:20 | <deniz1a> | i wasnt looking for the source files, i just realized it's not in the newgrf file |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: and you expect someone who wants text files for easier modification be able to read a text file? preposterous! |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | yeah, I think I was presumptious |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | <deniz1a> for example it is not clear where you get the source files for zbase set <-- and yes, you were, deniz1a |
| 08:21 | <deniz1a> | you should try being postsumptious |
| 08:22 | <deniz1a> | yes from the content download window you cant get the source |
| 08:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, but you get a link to the source. |
| 08:22 | <deniz1a> | no |
| 08:23 | <deniz1a> | it says visit website and the page doesnt exist |
| 08:23 | <deniz1a> | isn't that postposterous? |
| 08:25 | <deniz1a> | preposterous has the prefixes pre and post in it! |
| 08:25 | <deniz1a> | so is it before or after the fact? |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then report that error of the missing website. |
| 08:28 | <deniz1a> | ok |
| 08:28 | <deniz1a> | where? |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | on the website :p |
| 08:29 | * | Eddi|zuHause gets a "there's a hole in the bucket" vibe |
| 08:29 | <deniz1a> | how do i file a bug report on http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase? |
| 08:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | probably have to log in |
| 08:31 | <deniz1a> | meh |
| 08:31 | <deniz1a> | can you tell them the link has zBase in it but it should be zbase |
| 08:31 | <deniz1a> | capital b makes the link incorrect |
| 08:35 | <@planetmaker> | so you have been lamenting 2 hours to tell us that http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zBase doesn't work (while http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/zbase works) |
| 08:36 | <deniz1a> | was i not clear about that at the beginning? |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | I can't answer that without insult |
| 08:37 | <deniz1a> | retort |
| 08:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | backstab |
| 08:38 | <deniz1a> | sad face |
| 08:38 | <deniz1a> | "<deniz1a> ok. what ii mean is, why arent graphics base sets not in plain png and text files?" i thought you would get that the link was wrong from that sentence |
| 08:39 | <deniz1a> | but still having a special language just for openttd seems weird |
| 08:39 | <samu> | hey i have a question about cargo dist again |
| 08:40 | <deniz1a> | yes i love questions |
| 08:40 | <samu> | I have a helicopter trying to full loadpassengers at an airport, but those passengers are from another station |
| 08:41 | <samu> | now the airport also have some passengers that are going via any station to any station |
| 08:41 | <samu> | why won't the helicopter load those? |
| 08:41 | <deniz1a> | what kind of passengers are those? |
| 08:41 | <deniz1a> | they just want to go anywhere? |
| 08:41 | <deniz1a> | it doesn't? |
| 08:41 | <samu> | yes, I think that's the thing |
| 08:41 | <samu> | the helicopter is still trying to load |
| 08:41 | <samu> | from the other station |
| 08:42 | <deniz1a> | maybe that's a bug |
| 08:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you should avoid passengers "to any station" |
| 08:42 | <deniz1a> | yeah, they're trouble |
| 08:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they break your feeder systems and stuff |
| 08:42 | <deniz1a> | why would they? dont they get off at the first station? |
| 08:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can try "unload all" orders |
| 08:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | deniz1a: not when that station doesn't actually accept them |
| 08:43 | <samu> | I don't have transfer |
| 08:43 | <deniz1a> | stations have accept restrictions? oh you mean no passengers? |
| 08:43 | <samu> | they're transfered there though |
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| 08:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | cargodist turns all orders to "transfer" implicitly |
| 08:43 | <deniz1a> | yeah you get transfers automatically |
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| 08:46 | <samu> | gasp, nevermind, i'm looking at this wrong |
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| 08:46 | <andythenorth> | V453000: transition effects are Worst Thing Eva |
| 08:46 | <andythenorth> | don’t do it |
| 08:46 | <samu> | sorry, i have several windows open and trying to follow them all |
| 08:46 | <samu> | was looking at the wrong station |
| 08:46 | <V453000> | what are transition effects andy? |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | forums |
| 08:47 | <andythenorth> | it’s a method for making everything ugly |
| 08:49 | <samu> | so it happens there's no "any station" after all at this airport, that "any station" was from another airport. False alarm |
| 08:49 | <samu> | following all this is confusing |
| 08:51 | <V453000> | LOL XD |
| 08:51 | <V453000> | andythenorth: how would I even do that XD extra industry tiles? :D |
| 08:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so when does andythenorth learn that "forums" is a terrible location descriptor |
| 08:51 | <V453000> | newobjects? |
| 08:51 | <V453000> | Eddi I found it :P |
| 08:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, i don't even get what that guy is asking for |
| 08:52 | <V453000> | so his location descriptor was top notch :D |
| 08:52 | <V453000> | I guess newobjects which transition from thing A to thing B |
| 08:52 | <andythenorth> | he wants holes in your ground tiles |
| 08:52 | <V453000> | for all combination, all slopes, everything |
| 08:52 | <V453000> | I dont think he knows what he wants :D |
| 08:52 | <andythenorth> | holes |
| 08:53 | <samu> | holes what? |
| 08:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think what he means is that the edge of the ISR tile looks less obvious, because the whole ISR tile is not opaque and thus the ground shines through |
| 08:54 | <V453000> | ah right |
| 08:55 | <samu> | roads that deteriorate over time creating holes that slows down traffic? |
| 08:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: this is not sim city :p |
| 08:55 | <samu> | ok |
| 08:57 | <deniz1a> | simcity gets boring after a while |
| 08:58 | <deniz1a> | if openttd had some gameplay changes it could be the best game |
| 08:58 | <V453000> | hm so andythenorth why is it such a bad idea? :D doesnt sounds THAT bad to me |
| 08:58 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, you do that by providing two ground sprites basically |
| 08:59 | <andythenorth> | V453000: looks ugly |
| 08:59 | <V453000> | I already do that pm, the top one just is 100% fulltile :) |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | first draw the normal grass as lowest ground sprite. Then draw on top the concrete one which has some transparent holes in it at the appropriate borders |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | hehe :) |
| 08:59 | <V453000> | idk it doesnt have to look ugly I suppose :) |
| 08:59 | <V453000> | yeah |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | and I do think he has a point that it can look better in some cases |
| 08:59 | * | andythenorth hates it |
| 08:59 | <V453000> | Probably |
| 09:00 | * | planetmaker loves it :) |
| 09:00 | <andythenorth> | one of the reasons I don’t use ISR ever |
| 09:00 | <V453000> | :0 |
| 09:00 | <V453000> | andythenorth never uses ISR |
| 09:00 | <V453000> | infidel |
| 09:00 | <deniz1a> | what's isr? |
| 09:00 | <andythenorth> | can’t stand the sight of it |
| 09:00 | <andythenorth> | I was hoping to fix it, but the work is too much |
| 09:00 | <V453000> | looks like I got a job to do to annoy andy XD |
| 09:01 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 09:01 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, where did your station coder vanish to? |
| 09:01 | <V453000> | has work, is busy |
| 09:01 | <V453000> | has not stated that they arent coming back, but I dont think cats will be done anytime soon at all :) |
| 09:02 | <@planetmaker> | :( he started so nice on nml stations :) |
| 09:02 | <@planetmaker> | it all sounded promising |
| 09:03 | <V453000> | well it was the same a year ago :( |
| 09:04 | <@planetmaker> | hm, was it the same guy? |
| 09:04 | <V453000> | yes |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | was a she no? |
| 09:07 | <V453000> | yes |
| 09:07 | <V453000> | matters now :) |
| 09:07 | <V453000> | not |
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| 10:14 | <samu> | cargo flow legend is interesting |
| 10:15 | <samu> | the color is an estimate? |
| 10:16 | <samu> | that green to yellow to red |
| 10:17 | <samu> | red means I need more vehicles transporting on that route, right? it is not necessarily the amount of waiting cargo |
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| 10:18 | <samu> | wiki |
| 10:20 | <samu> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist |
| 10:27 | <samu> | yep, it's simple |
| 10:28 | <samu> | "The yellow and red shades are only shown if Cargodist is enabled for the selected cargoes and the link graph calculation has determined that the link has too little capacity for the amount of cargo to be transported there" |
| 10:28 | <samu> | this is too much information to digest all at once |
| 10:28 | <samu> | but ends up being simple |
| 10:34 | <samu> | I have a suggestion, add a tool tip when mousing over that legend |
| 10:34 | <samu> | explaining what to do |
| 10:35 | <samu> | when there's a light green or a dark red |
| 10:35 | <samu> | would be helpful to understand what the colors mean |
| 10:38 | <samu> | also, green at first gave me the wrong perception of it |
| 10:38 | <samu> | I was thinking, "so it's green, everything is good then" |
| 10:38 | <samu> | it's not quite that |
| 10:39 | <samu> | should have been in shades of blue |
| 10:40 | <samu> | the saturated point should be the brightest, I guess |
| 10:43 | <samu> | the over capacity point should be in a strong blue |
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| 10:44 | <samu> | as for the unused, hmm I have no idea, but something that doesn't resemble blue, red or white |
| 10:46 | <samu> | eww feels like im alone on here, well those are my ideas and first impressions of cargo flow, hope someone reads them |
| 10:48 | <V453000> | everybody does but nobody cares about them |
| 10:52 | <andythenorth> | we’re just amazed it works |
| 10:53 | <V453000> | just grab notepad++ and get working samu :) |
| 10:54 | <samu> | notepad++ hmm what am i gonna do? |
| 10:55 | <V453000> | code changes :) |
| 11:00 | <samu> | ugh, i rather not |
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| 11:02 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 11:02 | <V453000> | then go draw sprites :P |
| 11:14 | <@Alberth> | frez sprites are alwayz tasty |
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| 11:54 | <samu> | Oilfield is blocking another Oilfield. Ship can't dock there |
| 11:54 | <samu> | I thought this had been fixed |
| 11:54 | <samu> | :( |
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| 12:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how and where did you get that impression? |
| 12:08 | <samu> | the 1 tile border |
| 12:09 | <samu> | flat area around industries: 1 |
| 12:09 | <samu> | tile |
| 12:10 | <@Alberth> | not enough to turn a ship |
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| 12:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: i don't think that applies to oil rigs. |
| 12:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | oil rigs have some special creation rules that make sure they are in a larger body of water. but this is like the border of a rectangle of 8x8 (or so) around the oil rig, so another oil rig may be within this ring |
| 12:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the "flat area" is just a check that it's flat. there may be other obstacles within this area |
| 12:16 | <samu> | I see t.t |
| 12:19 | <samu> | could it be fixed? |
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| 12:19 | <samu> | or improved |
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| 12:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah. you could override the layout for the oil rig with one that checks more tiles for being water |
| 12:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this involves writing a NewGRF |
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| 12:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | might be a nice beginner's exercise on industry NewGRFs |
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| 13:22 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
| 13:23 | <NGC3982> | _o |
| 13:24 | <samu> | hmm how do I do that |
| 13:25 | <samu> | beginner's exercise on industry newgrf |
| 13:25 | <samu> | if it's easy, i can try to do it |
| 13:25 | <@Alberth> | read about making newgrfs? |
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| 13:27 | <samu> | no, it's for the oil rig creation |
| 13:27 | <samu> | it should check for water tiles nearby |
| 13:28 | <samu> | to avoid blocking another oilrig |
| 13:28 | <samu> | change a layout or something, meh you help me? |
| 13:29 | <@Alberth> | suggesting to read about making newgrfs is not helping? |
| 13:29 | <andythenorth> | assuming default industries, not other newgrfs |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | (1) set up a newgrf that modifies existing oil rig |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | (2) copy the layouts (they can probably be found in nfo wiki) and add more magic tiles |
| 13:30 | <andythenorth> | done |
| 13:30 | <@Alberth> | (3) profit! |
| 13:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (4) ? |
| 13:31 | <andythenorth> | probably about 2 days work |
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| 13:32 | <@Alberth> | (4) world domination |
| 13:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: that would be (5) then |
| 13:33 | <@Alberth> | samu: the point with these journeys is that the end-result is not that important, it's the journey that counts |
| 13:34 | <@Alberth> | oh, you want to keep a ? item in, eh? :) |
| 13:34 | <andythenorth> | (6) release, put on forums, receive endless feature request |
| 13:34 | <andythenorth> | +s |
| 13:34 | <samu> | is this only going to work for oil rig vs oil rig? |
| 13:35 | <samu> | if I can actually manage to do it |
| 13:35 | <andythenorth> | this will only work for default oil rig, or oil rigs in newgrfs that redefine default (if your grf is after that one in the newgrf window) |
| 13:36 | <samu> | ah, so it has nothing to do with the "flat area around industries" setting? |
| 13:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Alberth: it wouldn't be much of a running gag (or new-wordy: "meme") otherwise :p |
| 13:36 | <@Alberth> | fair enough :) |
| 13:37 | <samu> | ok let me try |
| 13:37 | <samu> | where is that wiki |
| 13:37 | <@Alberth> | and so the journey starts.... |
| 13:38 | <samu> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.nfo ? |
| 13:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: it will never work with other NewGRFs. each NewGRF operates on a new copy of the default industries |
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| 13:43 | <samu> | is this? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main |
| 13:44 | <andythenorth> | oic |
| 13:58 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 13:58 | * | andythenorth waits for steam activation email |
| 14:04 | <samu> | i still couldn't figure out where to start |
| 14:04 | <samu> | well I downloaded NML |
| 14:04 | <samu> | now what do I need? Some layout of a Oil Rig thing? |
| 14:05 | <@Alberth> | step 1 of andy |
| 14:06 | <samu> | how? |
| 14:08 | <@Alberth> | be less concerned about the end result, and enjoying the journey of finding the answer to "how" |
| 14:08 | <@Alberth> | more concretely, start reading things, like the manual/wiki |
| 14:08 | <samu> | where do I find that layout? I must edit upon it |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | first you must make a basic grf that you can get into gam |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | game * |
| 14:09 | <@Alberth> | step 1 does not mention layout at all, afaik |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | it can have zero features |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | but it must compile and appear in game correctly |
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| 14:15 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 14:16 | <@Alberth> | moin |
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| 14:32 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 14:32 | <andythenorth> | has FIRS makefile lost TEST_INDUSTRY support again? |
| 14:32 | <andythenorth> | it’s a compile time flag |
| 14:35 | * | andythenorth investigates |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | hmm works if the other args are supplied |
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| 15:20 | <samu> | C:\Users\Ricardo\Downloads\nml-v5465-windows-win32 |
| 15:20 | <samu> | oops |
| 15:20 | <frosch123> | http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/fs6212.diff <- hmm |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | anyone ever used the chat window width setting? |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | it makes no sense to me :p |
| 15:21 | <samu> | ←[Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION" |
| 15:21 | <samu> | i fail |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | i wonder whether it should be replaced by some "percentage of screen width" settings instead |
| 15:21 | <samu> | double gui size doesn't double that |
| 15:21 | <frosch123> | some of the custom sizing things like multiplayer list likely need to be rewritten |
| 15:22 | <frosch123> | no idea actually why they are done like that |
| 15:22 | <samu> | so what am i doing wrong here? I tried to follow the tutorial |
| 15:23 | <samu> | undefined command "VERSION" |
| 15:23 | <frosch123> | oi, albert isn't here. am i alone then? :p |
| 15:23 | <samu> | i am here |
| 15:24 | <V453000> | yes frosch alone :P |
| 15:24 | <samu> | line 2 says |
| 15:24 | <samu> | STR_GRF_NAME :Oil Rig {VERSION} |
| 15:26 | <+michi_cc> | Don't skip the section about custom_tags.txt (or read it more carefully :) |
| 15:29 | <samu> | custom_tags.txt |
| 15:29 | <samu> | VERSION :1 |
| 15:29 | <samu> | just that |
| 15:29 | <samu> | does it need name ? |
| 15:30 | <samu> | TITLE : |
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| 15:36 | <samu> | undefined command "VERSION" I dont know why |
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| 15:40 | <samu> | now I added a TITTLE :Oil Rig |
| 15:41 | <samu> | it still complains about undeficed command "VERSION" |
| 15:41 | <samu> | TITLE |
| 15:41 | <samu> | one t |
| 15:41 | <samu> | undefined* |
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| 15:42 | -!- | Progman_ is now known as Progman |
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| 15:42 | <samu> | wait, let me upload this thing |
| 15:44 | <samu> | https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!708&authkey=!AOjM0fTPgymtzzc&ithint=file%2czip |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | does it work? |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | o_O |
| 15:47 | <samu> | nop |
| 15:47 | <samu> | and i dont know why |
| 15:48 | <samu> | can you look at it |
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| 15:52 | <+michi_cc> | samu: custom_tags.txt: UTF-8 Unicode (with BOM) text, with CRLF line terminators |
| 15:52 | <samu> | what? |
| 15:52 | <+michi_cc> | samu: i.e. don't save your stuff with a byte order mark. |
| 15:52 | <samu> | what the hell is that? I just saved as UTF-8 |
| 15:53 | <+michi_cc> | Use a real text editor then :) |
| 15:53 | <samu> | notepad? |
| 15:54 | <+michi_cc> | That would be a not-real text editor (which assumes UTF-8 with byte order mark, even if almost nothing except Microsoft does). |
| 15:55 | <samu> | hmm |
| 15:55 | <samu> | i will try the other options |
| 15:55 | <+michi_cc> | Notepad++ should work. |
| 15:55 | <+michi_cc> | It will do with and without BOM just fine. |
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| 15:56 | <samu> | there's ANSI, Unicode, Unicode Big Endian and UTF-8 to pick from in Notepad, would any of these work? |
| 15:56 | <+michi_cc> | ANSI, as long as you stay within a - z. |
| 15:56 | <+michi_cc> | It's a strict subset of UTF-8. Don't try accents though. |
| 15:57 | <samu> | ok |
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| 15:57 | <samu> | ←[Kting output ...←[KK |
| 15:58 | <samu> | what does this mean? it worked? |
| 15:58 | <samu> | i see a oilrig.grf now |
| 16:01 | <samu> | i guess it's working |
| 16:01 | <samu> | it's listed in OpenTTD menu |
| 16:06 | <samu> | what must I do now? |
| 16:10 | <frosch123> | https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/diff?utf8=%E2%9C%93&rev_to=9879a2a88737&rev=d4bb7a333937 <- andythenorth: did you remove those strings from english.txt? why did eints delete them? |
| 16:11 | <frosch123> | hmm, that's a reverse diff... so they were added |
| 16:11 | <frosch123> | just eints failed to set an author |
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| 16:14 | <samu> | so, about that oil rig layout |
| 16:14 | <samu> | what to do? |
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| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: dunno :) |
| 16:33 | <samu> | my grf lel |
| 16:33 | <samu> | http://1drv.ms/1BT1VWQ |
| 16:34 | <samu> | the tutorial is teaching me to create a truck, I don't want to do that :( |
| 16:37 | <andythenorth> | I’d say look at FIRS, but it’s way to complex |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | look at ogfx + industries |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | or manpower industries maybe |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | or manual industries (name?) |
| 16:42 | <@planetmaker> | g'evening |
| 16:49 | <andythenorth> | lo planetmaker |
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| 17:06 | * | andythenorth needs a varaction 2 chain that loops by reading a counter in a register |
| 17:06 | <andythenorth> | and reads values from other registers, the register location incrementing 1 per loop |
| 17:06 | <andythenorth> | this is probably an Eddi thing :P |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | given that can’t loop back to same varact 2, this idea may be flawed |
| 17:08 | <andythenorth> | there is another, horrible, solution, but it might run out of varact 2 IDs maybe |
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| 17:08 | * | andythenorth will try another day |
| 17:13 | <andythenorth> | what’s the varact 2 ID limit in nml? 255? |
| 17:13 | <andythenorth> | wiki doesn’t seem to know |
| 17:14 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 17:14 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: nml outputs it on every run :p |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | oh that nice new display :) |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | that is nice btw |
| 17:15 | * | andythenorth needs to find his glasses |
| 17:16 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: what’s it labelled as? Concurrent Action2 registers? |
| 17:17 | <frosch123> | spritesets = action1 ids |
| 17:17 | <frosch123> | spritegroups = varact2 ids |
| 17:17 | <andythenorth> | ah |
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| 17:17 | <frosch123> | action2 registers = temporary storage = complexity inside a single switch / spritelayout |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | yeah, that’s what I first assumed, was looking for some other action 2 stat as well |
| 17:18 | <andythenorth> | spritegroup makes sense now |
| 17:19 | <andythenorth> | the count reported for spritegroup, I assume is total in a single chain? |
| 17:19 | <frosch123> | it's the branching factor of a chain |
| 17:19 | <frosch123> | how flat can you punch the tree :) |
| 17:20 | <andythenorth> | so (theoretically), if I wanted a switch with 255 possible results (to other unique switches) |
| 17:20 | <andythenorth> | that’s just possible |
| 17:20 | <frosch123> | yes, but no switch after it can refer to some other switch before |
| 17:21 | <frosch123> | the 256 is a wall no other switch can pass over |
| 17:21 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, 255 is a hard limit |
| 17:21 | <andythenorth> | no switch anywhere, or no switch in that chain? |
| 17:21 | <frosch123> | grfv9 suggests to increase that limit btw :p |
| 17:21 | * | frosch123 hides |
| 17:21 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 17:21 | <andythenorth> | no switch anywhere |
| 17:21 | * | andythenorth sees how it works |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | much easier to model it as nfo :P |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | in my head |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | the pointer location got reset :P |
| 17:22 | <andythenorth> | that is going to be somewhat interesting to handle |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | can I reliably organise my nml input, placing switches in the file to workaround this? |
| 17:23 | <andythenorth> | or is that doomed? |
| 17:23 | <frosch123> | nml does not reorder switches |
| 17:24 | <frosch123> | (currently) |
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| 17:24 | <frosch123> | so, it's up to you to optimise the maximum active switches |
| 17:24 | <andythenorth> | so if I needed a massive 255 ID switch, and it’s the first chain in the file... |
| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | later (unrelated) chains still work |
| 17:25 | <frosch123> | yes |
| 17:25 | <frosch123> | anyway, it's likely more clever to compute results than using huge switches :) |
| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | this is only coming up because I’ve exceeded max industries |
| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | so I have to reuse IDs |
| 17:26 | <andythenorth> | so all industries have to now share the same switches |
| 17:26 | <andythenorth> | all / most /s |
| 17:26 | <andythenorth> | fun times |
| 17:27 | <andythenorth> | so I have to stuff a uid into a register at the start of each switch chain |
| 17:27 | <andythenorth> | then switch on the uid later |
| 17:27 | <andythenorth> | uid can be > 64 |
| 17:27 | <andythenorth> | problem solved |
| 17:27 | <andythenorth> | until I hit the switch limit |
| 17:27 | <frosch123> | why? |
| 17:27 | <frosch123> | just add a if and definite separate items |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | can’t if switches |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | why? |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | spec |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | says |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | may not wrap action 2 of any kind in action D |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | may have misunderstood |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | manual industries does if around items everywhere |
| 17:28 | <andythenorth> | misunderstanding would be optimum outcome here |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | "item" is not action2 |
| 17:28 | <frosch123> | "item" is action3 |
| 17:29 | * | andythenorth thinks |
| 17:29 | <andythenorth> | I saw this problem in game, maybe I’m mis-solving it |
| 17:31 | * | andythenorth checks own code |
| 17:31 | <andythenorth> | when reusing IDs, I had wrong industry window text |
| 17:32 | <andythenorth> | but item with that cb isn’t in an if block |
| 17:32 | <andythenorth> | which would explain it |
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| 17:33 | <andythenorth> | props block is wrapped in if |
| 17:33 | <andythenorth> | graphics not |
| 17:33 | <andythenorth> | eh, problem solved if that works |
| 17:34 | <andythenorth> | thanks |
| 17:35 | <samu> | am i looking at the right place? |
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| 17:35 | * | andythenorth looking for bed |
| 17:35 | <andythenorth> | bye |
| 17:35 | <samu> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:IndustryTiles |
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| 17:42 | <samu> | where would I place the 'item {' line? |
| 17:43 | <samu> | this block |
| 17:43 | <samu> | goes inside 'grf {' part? |
| 17:43 | <Supercheese> | http://pastebin.com/XjbTehww |
| 17:43 | <Supercheese> | Just by itself like that |
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| 17:43 | <Supercheese> | not within grf block |
| 17:46 | <samu> | ah, what is the difference between industry tiles and industries? |
| 17:46 | <samu> | features |
| 17:46 | <samu> | which one am I to edit? |
| 17:47 | <Supercheese> | Well, the industries feature will require tile layouts comprised of industry tile(s) |
| 17:47 | <Supercheese> | layout(s) |
| 17:47 | <samu> | oh, layouts |
| 17:47 | <samu> | ok it's tiles |
| 17:48 | <Supercheese> | So if defining a completely new industry, you need the item block for the industry, at least one tile layout, and at least one item block with an industrytile |
| 17:51 | <@planetmaker> | you can re-use the pre-defined default industry tiles. In principle |
| 17:52 | <Supercheese> | yes, but "completely new" |
| 17:53 | <samu> | The objective is, I wanted to modify the creation rules for oil rig, they shouldn't be able to spawn adjacent to other oil rigs |
| 17:53 | <Supercheese> | you could even use a default industry and just tweak it a bit |
| 17:53 | <Supercheese> | oh that may be what you want |
| 17:53 | <samu> | to leave a room of water for ships to dock |
| 17:53 | <Supercheese> | you can probably just override the properties |
| 17:54 | <Supercheese> | mightn't need to mess with tiles |
| 17:54 | <Supercheese> | could mess with location_check callback |
| 17:55 | <samu> | it's FEAT_INDUSTRIES then? |
| 17:56 | <Supercheese> | let me paste some code |
| 17:56 | <Supercheese> | sec |
| 17:57 | <Supercheese> | http://pastebin.com/fGHgHD8a |
| 17:57 | <Supercheese> | and then define the callback |
| 17:58 | <Supercheese> | which I believe must be done above that block in the file |
| 18:01 | <Supercheese> | which should look something like http://pastebin.com/ERk2sK0P |
| 18:02 | <Supercheese> | where you can change the 6 to whatever value |
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| 18:02 | <Supercheese> | note I have not checked any of this code, just my initial hunch |
| 18:04 | <Supercheese> | Hmm, maybe I should be using the ottdcoop paste... |
| 18:04 | <Supercheese> | oh well |
| 18:04 | <samu> | i believe there's two ways for doing this |
| 18:05 | <samu> | make the oil rig fatter to occupy more water tiles to let ships docks when another one is spawning nearby |
| 18:05 | <samu> | or alter the rules to the oil rig |
| 18:05 | <samu> | upon creaton |
| 18:05 | <samu> | which one is better? |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think changing the layout is easier |
| 18:06 | <samu> | or am I missing something I'm not aware |
| 18:06 | <Supercheese> | the callback method would probably take fewer lines of code |
| 18:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | changing the creation rules needs some learning about how the NewGRF logic works |
| 18:06 | <Supercheese> | although I'm not sure |
| 18:07 | <Supercheese> | and not that that's an imperative metric... |
| 18:07 | <samu> | how would a ship go into that tile? |
| 18:08 | <samu> | it's a station |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the ship goes adjacent to the station tile |
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| 18:12 | <samu> | if i increase the oil rig size with one more tile, the one in front of the station, can i configure that tile to allow ships to go into it? gah, this is starting to look complicated |
| 18:12 | <samu> | a path_map |
| 18:12 | <samu> | kind of thing |
| 18:12 | <samu> | pathable terrain |
| 18:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, the tiles are special placeholders for construcion. after construction they are plain water tiles |
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| 18:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they are not actually part of the resulting industry |
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| 18:41 | <samu> | aha, here it is the thing |
| 18:41 | <samu> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/IndustryDefaultProps |
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| 18:46 | <dreck> | hi |
| 18:47 | <dreck> | I know its a bit unrelated but hmm any of you know if 4-axle trucks (versus the more common 2- and 3-axles) were ever used on anything outside oversized/transformer load flatcars? |
| 18:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | oversized/flatcars can have 12 axles or more |
| 18:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | otherwise, i have no helpful information... |
| 18:52 | <samu> | Oil rigs are slightly special industries, since they have industry "tile" FFh, which doesn't create anything on the landscape, but the tile is still checked, and construction fails if it isn't a clear water tile. |
| 18:52 | <samu> | there is a xx behind the oil rig |
| 18:52 | <samu> | are you looking at it? |
| 18:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but that only affects the new oil rig, existing oil rigs might still be blocked this way |
| 18:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | replicate the xx around the whole oil rig to prevent this |
| 18:55 | <samu> | oh, other question, where can I open this to edit it |
| 18:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what are you hoping to edit? |
| 18:55 | <samu> | must i create one from scratch |
| 18:56 | <samu> | put xx around |
| 18:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this must go into your NewGRF |
| 18:56 | <dreck> | eddi yeah there are some big monster of transformer carriers like hows THIS? http://zierke.com/shasta_route/pics/schnabel.jpg |
| 18:56 | <samu> | :) |
| 18:56 | <dreck> | heh |
| 18:57 | <samu> | ah, so it must be copy pasted, then adjust |
| 18:57 | <samu> | grr, what exactly am I copying, lol sorry for so many questions |
| 18:58 | <dreck> | heh samu well sometimes you just learn by trial and error right? :) |
| 18:58 | <dreck> | thats somewhat why I like grfcodec...plop my grf into the game and if no errors or bugs then I know I got it |
| 18:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, the syntax will be a bit different, so i'm not sure what copying would achieve |
| 18:58 | <samu> | i want to pick the original footprint, and edit from it |
| 18:59 | <samu> | oh, it's a syntax |
| 18:59 | <samu> | great :o |
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| 19:04 | <samu> | what does the [] in the grid mean? the [18] thing |
| 19:04 | <samu> | that's not where the station is |
| 19:05 | <samu> | the north corner is not [18], it's 19 |
| 19:06 | <samu> | oh crap, i mean 1A |
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| 19:06 | <samu> | that's also where the station is, i believe, if im interpreting this correctly |
| 19:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | north is not where you think it is |
| 19:07 | <samu> | station is located at 1A? at least when I observe on the minimap, that's where it is |
| 19:08 | <samu> | then is it simulating an invisible docks? |
| 19:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 19:08 | <samu> | 1A, then [18], then water |
| 19:08 | <samu> | that water to the left of [18] is where the ship dicks |
| 19:08 | <samu> | oops docks |
| 19:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 19:09 | <samu> | no? yes |
| 19:09 | <dreck> | well samu how else did it have that not-company-owned station name hoving above the oilrig you know, right? ;) |
| 19:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the ship docks where the "xx" is |
| 19:09 | <dreck> | same thing used by the fishing ground in mb and andy's industry grfs |
| 19:09 | <samu> | no, that's not there |
| 19:09 | <samu> | are you sure? doesn't make sense then, when i look at the others |
| 19:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, it's just mirrored and rotated in a weird way |
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| 19:15 | <samu> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Tilelayout :) I'm getting there |
| 19:17 | <samu> | so i need to write all those tiles? even the blank ones? or just add the "xx"? |
| 19:17 | <samu> | ones |
| 19:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can skip the empty tiles |
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| 19:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for the "xx" tiles you write "clear", for the other tiles, you write 0x18 etc. |
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| 20:20 | <samu> | anyone here? |
| 20:21 | * | dreck pokes samu with some pixels? |
| 20:21 | <dreck> | heh |
| 20:22 | <samu> | http://pastebin.com/zknumKPf |
| 20:22 | <samu> | is it something like this? |
| 20:22 | <samu> | i just tried to figure out the syntax for the first line but no idea what goes there |
| 20:30 | <Sylf> | for nml code sharing, try https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ - it supports nml syntax highlighting :) |
| 20:37 | <samu> | https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptlav8dzn |
| 20:37 | <samu> | so... whatever |
| 20:38 | <samu> | what goes into the first line? |
| 20:38 | <samu> | and is the rest to be like that? |
| 20:39 | <Sylf> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Tilelayout |
| 20:39 | <Sylf> | so yes, it's like that |
| 20:40 | <Sylf> | of course, if you set all tiles to "clear", you won't have anything on the map |
| 20:40 | <samu> | hmm so what do i do with this piece of text? |
| 20:40 | <samu> | it's for the oil rig |
| 20:40 | <Sylf> | let me go read the backlog first |
| 20:41 | <Sylf> | that chunk of code by itself doesn't tell me anything |
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| 20:43 | <Sylf> | you're trying to recreate oil rig? |
| 20:43 | <samu> | yes, but with those "xx" tiles around it |
| 20:43 | <Supercheese> | trying to prevent oil rigs from being created too close to each other |
| 20:44 | <Sylf> | so, we can reuse the default oil rig sprites |
| 20:44 | <samu> | yes |
| 20:45 | <Sylf> | but in order to use them, I think the sprites need to be defined, and specify that you're using those graphics |
| 20:45 | <samu> | that's the part I don't understand |
| 20:45 | <Supercheese> | he can use the override & substitute |
| 20:45 | <samu> | i know i am missing something |
| 20:45 | <Supercheese> | to re-use the sprites |
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| 20:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: sprites are used by IndustryTile, not by Industry |
| 20:47 | <Sylf> | it would be easiest to download the opengfx+ industries source and study that |
| 20:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: since you're reusing the default IndustryTiles, you don't need to add anything |
| 20:48 | <samu> | my head is attempting to decipher what you're telling me... |
| 20:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: however, your tilelayout must be used by an actual industry that you override |
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| 20:50 | <dreck> | sorry to ask this (especially to eddi perhaps) but can you set a single wagon to have different capacity per assigned cargotypes or its a bit complex to bother doing that code-wise? (eg it could be 20 tonnes of coal but only 17 tonnes of ore for example) |
| 20:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dreck: there's a capacity callback for that |
| 20:50 | <Sylf> | OpenGFX+ trains might do some of that - not too sure |
| 20:51 | <Sylf> | On flat car, only some steel, but much more capacity for wood, etc |
| 20:52 | <Supercheese> | yeah, vary capacity based on cargo_type_in_veh |
| 20:52 | <dreck> | oh, geeze I was thinking vars not callbacks..I see it now |
| 20:52 | <dreck> | thanks a lot -_- |
| 20:55 | <dreck> | supercheese nothing like an entire wagonload of one cargo weighting the same as one single crate of machines in the same wagon :) |
| 20:55 | <dreck> | (just saying..I dunno why I had to heh) |
| 20:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 1 ton of feathers weighs the same as 1 ton of steel |
| 20:58 | <Supercheese> | 1 ton of metal does not weigh the same as one bag of mail |
| 20:58 | <Supercheese> | or bale of wool |
| 20:58 | <Supercheese> | or crate of farm supplies, etc. |
| 20:58 | <samu> | im reading here, http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Property |
| 20:59 | <samu> | item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES? |
| 21:00 | <Supercheese> | I guess the cargo weight parameter sort of compensates for the discrepancies |
| 21:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: so what is the question? |
| 21:00 | <samu> | no idea i really don't know |
| 21:01 | <samu> | i don't understand what I need to look for |
| 21:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | samu: so maybe you should read the tutorial? |
| 21:01 | <samu> | i don't have time now |
| 21:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't have time either. |
| 21:02 | <samu> | i mean i have to go sleep |
| 21:02 | <samu> | is it far from finished? |
| 21:03 | <Supercheese> | NML tutorial is great |
| 21:03 | <samu> | wanted to finish this part today and continue tomorrow |
| 21:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | about 10 minutes if you're skilled |
| 21:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | about 2 hours if you're not |
| 21:03 | <samu> | ouch, i really have to go though, sorry, parents are hurrying me |
| 21:05 | <dreck> | supercheese you're exactly right about everything you just said about weight :) |
| 21:05 | <samu> | well, cyas all, thx for the help so far. I'll do the rest tomorrow, promise. |
| 21:06 | <dreck> | but anyway think I pretty much got no pending issues left ... going see when I'll finish the first draft of the vehicles list before passing it onto friend for coding |
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| 21:33 | <dreck> | anyway break for bedtime |
| 21:34 | * | dreck lets several random wagons loose in here |
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| 21:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how or why is the forum backup running at this time? |
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| 22:36 | <Sylf> | the forum backup is sure taking a long time tonight |
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| 22:42 | <supermop> | yo |
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| --- | Log | closed Wed Feb 04 00:00:58 2015 |
