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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-04

---Logopened Wed Feb 04 00:00:58 2015
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01:04<Pikkaphone>what happens
01:04<V453000>mayhem
01:05<V453000>whats wrong? :)
01:10<Pikkaphone>who can say?
01:11<V453000>question is good
01:12<Pikkaphone>what did you do to the forums?
01:19<V453000>oh forums borken :D
01:19<V453000>me, nothing :?>
01:19<V453000>also I might be starting a new project, I think rendered trains in 8/8 look just way too short
01:20<V453000>chubby-ish as you said or so
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01:27<V453000>just want to make everything longer
01:27<V453000>twice. :)
01:31<supermop>we need 4 tile long train cars...?
01:31<V453000>no everything 1 tile :P max
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01:40<supermop>textures are such a pain
01:40<supermop>want to render everything in uniform grey
01:45<V453000>the zbase way! :D
01:45<V453000>what issues are you having with textures?
01:45<V453000>mapping?
01:49<supermop>a little, but that i can slog through
01:49<supermop>more color correction
01:49<supermop>the stone i use for curbs and for cobbles should be same color
01:50<supermop>very hard to get that in PS
01:50<supermop>asphalt should be similar
01:50<supermop>and i only have one good bluestone for curbs/sidewalks
01:51<V453000>well the question is whether it is necessary to make them similar color :)
01:51<V453000>variety etc yknow
01:52<supermop>trying to find other images of the same stone for variety that are same exposure and color balance is a pain
01:52<V453000>I wouldnt bother with it that much
01:52<supermop>one think about this city is that they use the same rock for everything
01:53<supermop>next up is bricks on houses
01:53<supermop>and getting them to align with windows
01:54<V453000>that is relatively easy
01:54<V453000>but again, at x4 bricks are generally rather invisible
01:55<supermop>http://www.australianterrace.com/terrace-houses/leslie-cottage-4-cameron-street-coburg-melbourne-victoria/
01:55<supermop>they do this thing with patterns of yellow bricks set into dark bricks
01:56<supermop>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Terrace_houses_in_abbotsford_victoria.jpg
01:57<V453000>I dont know what options rhino has, but if you want to do this kind of details make sure you check out some form of UVW unwrapping
01:57<V453000>in 3DS MAX the function is called Unwrap UVW
01:58<supermop>i think thats in rhino just going to be some work figuring it out
01:58<V453000>helps a lot, lets you texture anything any way you like
01:59<V453000>I use it very often ... not for all objects, but often
01:59<V453000>e.g. Roads for RAWR ... I created the model, unwrapped it, and added the roads in photoshop
02:00<supermop>i am just debating those decorative bricks - if my facades are standardized i may be able to reuse the texture, but i may need to make the texture by hand in the first place
02:01<V453000>well sure, just pointing to a tool that could help you a ton
02:01<Flygon>supermop: I feel sorry for everyone that livees in Abbotsford
02:01*Flygon resumes figuring out how the hell muscles work
02:02<supermop>yeah ill try it
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02:30<Supercheese>Forum's dead, Jim
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02:40<V453000>död
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02:53<Celestar1>morning
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03:18<Supercheese>Forum yet lives
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03:58<supermop>rhino - at least v4 - does not really have that
03:59<supermop>something about how nurbs surfaces dont work that way
03:59<supermop>but v5 has a way to do emulate it
03:59<V453000>hm
03:59<V453000>idk I dont model in nurbs
04:00<supermop>there are all sorts of esoteric uvw mapping options in v4 that ive never touched before though
04:00<V453000>:)
04:00<supermop>so i think its just a matter of me exploring those
04:03<__ln__>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJNAx4BsUtE
04:04<supermop>off to print stuff
04:05<argoneus>good morning train friends
04:06<V453000>yeah probably :)
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05:38<andythenorth>oh he gone
06:00<supermop>elusive pikka
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06:00<andythenorth>and his phone
06:01<supermop>hmm i need an android irc client
06:04<supermop>i've found a coffee grinder that has a website reminiscent of audiophile woo peddlers, and now it is serving me ads on the fora
06:05<supermop>I wonder if a clever little clock would improve my coffee
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07:32*andythenorth wonders how to spell “over-engineering”
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07:36<V453000>no clue but as long as people understand what you mean ... :P
07:37*andythenorth is providing wtf amount of detail in nml code
07:37<andythenorth>probably a bad idea
07:37<V453000>... P.S. my over-engineered DOOM concept will bring utter madness :>
07:37<V453000>I already found wtf utility for the things
07:37<V453000>ultra articulated "horse" carriage?
07:37<V453000>priceless
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07:39<V453000>except pigcows are much stronger than some flimsy horses
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07:40<andythenorth>considered these in HEQS :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-mule_team
07:41<V453000>XD
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07:53<supermop>i used to see that stuf in stores and wonder what the hell kind of tagline that was
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08:09<supermop>night
08:13<V453000>hm, to model in 100% or 140% :)
08:13<V453000>question is big
08:14<andythenorth>140%
08:14<andythenorth>moar
08:14<V453000>and downscale it for 100% ? :D
08:14<V453000>sounds wtf
08:14<andythenorth>moar is better always
08:14<andythenorth>or is it? o_O
08:15<b_jonas>V453000: is this about diagonal carriages?
08:15<V453000>yes
08:15<V453000>diagonal is 140% of normal straight direction
08:15<V453000>in NUTS I just stretch the short version, and model in 100%
08:15<V453000>what if I model in 140% :D
08:16<V453000>and shrink down the normal tracks
08:17<V453000>I was just talking shit to supermop how 12m is a bad scale for 1 tile and I am going to use 14? :D
08:17<V453000>well done
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08:17<andythenorth>‘scale’?
08:17<andythenorth>wtf is scale?
08:18<andythenorth>this is some grid size thing in 3DSMax or what?
08:18<V453000>yeah, units :)
08:19<V453000>size of 1 model tile
08:20<andythenorth>do 16
08:20<andythenorth>or 8
08:20<andythenorth>powers of 2 innit
08:20<V453000>10 is nice
08:21*andythenorth has no clue why powers of 2 would be better, just saying words
08:23<andythenorth>FIRS location checks are wtf
08:39*andythenorth wonders why not automate conflicting industry check?
08:39<andythenorth>with a conflicting industries property
08:39<andythenorth>or by checking produced / accepted cargo at all other industries
08:50<V453000>hm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/DOOM/DOOM_00_0000.png
08:51<V453000>both are compromise-stretched XD
08:56<V453000>kind of.
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that cone shape is weird
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>all steam engines i have ever seen were cylindrical shape
09:00<andythenorth>too realisms
09:00<andythenorth>moar http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71ws2J362rL._SL1500_.jpg
09:01<andythenorth>or even (this is the only steam punk thing I really like) https://www.flickr.com/photos/68202935@N08/12527207444
09:01<V453000>yeah it looks strange to me too Eddi, it isnt my model, I just got it with some tutorial so I am testing stuff with it
09:01<V453000>more focused on the stretching atm :)
09:02<andythenorth>this is awesome https://www.flickr.com/photos/68202935@N08/6663368503/
09:02<V453000>yes :) design of the model is irrelevant now :P I like those things too
09:03<V453000>just took this cause showint it on a box isnt very helpful :P
09:04<V453000>hm I think I will end up with something like model in 120%
09:04<V453000>as a compromise
09:04<V453000>12m = 1 tile scale =D
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>i never had lego trains
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>only the monorail-ish airport shuttle
09:05<V453000>they are a bit short but it isnt a disaster I think https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/DOOM/DOOM_01_0000.png
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: my tiles are 32m
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>for train length purposes
09:06<V453000>your tiles dont exist :P
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>i was considering 24m, but that would have made trains too long
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>modern passenger wagons are ca. 26m
09:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if you have that shuttle still, it’s one of the most sought-after collectors items :P
09:08<andythenorth>V453000: that looks better, more chibi
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>it should be somewhere...
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i also have the space version
09:08<andythenorth>http://www.bricklink.com/search.asp?itemID=5006
09:08<V453000>yeah I like this more too
09:09<V453000>or do I
09:09<V453000>idk :)
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09:15<samu>hi
09:20<V453000>haha so I will model in 120% length, with 1 tile being 10m and I will just move camera to 83% so it renders correctly =D
09:20<V453000>compromise!
09:21<V453000>so in both views the vehicle will be streched by about 15,5% or such
09:21<V453000>one to be longer, one to be shorter :)
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09:44<samu>what is the paste site?
09:44<samu>openttdcop
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09:44<samu>ops, i closed this window
09:46<samu>ok, I got this
09:46<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfhxmdmaf
09:46<samu>the whole .nml file so far
09:48<samu>what is wrong and what is right?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the order is wrong, the tilelayout must be defined before it is used
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>i can't comment on whether "location_check" is right
09:58<samu>I switch item block with tilelayout block?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:00<samu>what is location_check?
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10:21<samu>←[Knmlc ERROR: Syntax error, unexpected end-of-file
10:22<samu>:(
10:30<samu>line 76 . unrecognized identifier 'oil_rig_layout'
10:30<samu>hmm :(
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10:47<@planetmaker>samu, a tile_layout is an industry property which describes how the industry looks like on the map. It is not a valid result for a location_check callback.
10:47<@planetmaker>check opengfx+industries, yeti or firs for examples
10:50<@planetmaker>actually, to be precise, the industry property is called layouts which takes a list of names of tilelayouts
10:53<samu>item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES or item (FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES?
10:54<samu>brb
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>you are running in circles.
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11:00<NGC3982>tjaba.
11:04<samu>let me see if I understand, I have the layout ready, now I have to give it a name, then this name is picked from a list by an industry property that choses layouts. which FEAT does this property belong to?
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11:07<samu>i downloaded opengfx+industries, but they're in .grf files, how do I convert that to .nml?
11:08<@Alberth>donwnload the sources from the project
11:09<samu>no idea what that means
11:09<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-industries/repository
11:10<@Alberth>^ are files that are written by the opengfx+industries authors and compiled to .grf
11:11<@Alberth>so use those as starting point or for examining how things are done
11:13<samu>i navigated to this
11:13<samu>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-industries/repository/revisions/d199b64b5ead/entry/src/tiles/oil_rig_tiles.pnml
11:14<@planetmaker>well. OpenGFX+Industries does not change much from the original oil rig. Thus what you look for is not found for *that* industry
11:15<@Alberth>hi hi
11:15<@planetmaker>hi hi :)
11:15<@Alberth>you finished step 1 already, samu?
11:16<@planetmaker>maybe, for your purpose yeti or firs are more suitable. most likely yeti is the simpler, thus easier to understand code
11:17<samu>for step 1, the grf was listed in OpenTTD, does it mean it works?
11:17<@Alberth>you could run a game too? nice!
11:18<samu>yes, it started, but I don't notice anything different, it just says it's running that grf
11:19<@Alberth>you can change something simple, like accepted or produced cargoes
11:19<samu>Active NewGRF files
11:19<samu>Oil Rig 1
11:19<samu>that was the name I put to i
11:19<samu>t
11:19<@Alberth>yeah, but did the game also build the oilrig you put into it?
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11:20<@Alberth>by making a simple change in the oilrig itself, you can find out
11:20<dreck>hi
11:20<@Alberth> o/
11:20<samu>no, step 1 was to see if grf would show up
11:20<dreck>eh samu still here? :)
11:20<samu>ya
11:20<dreck>heh thought so :P
11:20<dreck>alberth's first line for me coming in...I could guess too well
11:20<@Alberth>but getting it loading is a good start
11:20<samu>i had issues with utf-8 thingy
11:21<samu>but i am now using notepad ++
11:21<@Alberth>dreck: ? "o/" means "hello" (a person raising his arm waving hi)
11:22<dreck>alberth no I meant "change in the oilrig itself" .. that made me thinking ... 'is samu still here on the same coding project'? and sure I was right on
11:22<dreck>:)
11:23<@Alberth>ok :)
11:23<dreck>np anyway :)
11:23*dreck doesn't really have any coding problems just yet anyway
11:23<samu>i dont know the sites of those projects
11:23<samu>yeti?
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11:24<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects <-- contains a list of all projects there
11:25<@Alberth>but in general, re-use the same url, with a different project name :)
11:25<dreck>well...I may have to ask how to do the te-changing refit but thats for another week tho
11:26<@Alberth>stronger te if you load fuel? :)
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>te changing refit is a bad concept
11:26<samu>there is no Yeti
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>because refit needs a cargo, most engines don't load cargo.
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11:27<@Alberth>samu: try a case-insentive search
11:27<@Alberth>*insensitive
11:28<@Alberth>people use all kinds of upper and lower case letter combinations :)
11:32<dreck>I know that we talked about it before eddi but I'll wait and see what happens to the two sets of special case locomotives since this is still the early-draft tracking table yet
11:35<samu>layouts:
11:35<samu>ok, let's see
11:36<samu>if i want to mention the oil rig, i type 05D?
11:36<samu>no, not D
11:36<samu>05h
11:36<samu>item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES, 05h?
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11:37<@Alberth>I really don't know
11:37<samu>the example im looking at is this
11:37<samu>item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OIL_WELL, 10){
11:38<samu>where is the list of industries?
11:38<samu>what does 10 mean?
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11:45<@Alberth>the nml wiki on "item" should be able to answer such questions
11:50<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc78spoml
11:50<samu>it created a .grf with that
11:50<samu>now what will happen?
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12:01<andythenorth>o/
12:02<dreck>:)
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12:04<roidal>hi
12:04<samu>is it working?
12:04<samu>http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto
12:04<dreck>hi roidal
12:05<@Alberth>o/
12:05<roidal>i get a segfault with 1.4.4 64bit linux
12:06<roidal>are there any known issues?
12:06<@Alberth>could have a look at bugs.openttd.org
12:11<roidal>i see, this is new...it crashes if there is no graphic-set
12:12<@Alberth>that sounds like a problem :)
12:13<@Alberth>the sprite font is also in the graphics set, which makes it complicated to report anything, although maybe that got solved ?? I don't know
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12:13<@Alberth>please submit a bug report
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12:15<roidal>it can be something with the font, i cant 3 font-errors befor the segfault
12:15<roidal>cant -> get
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12:17<@Alberth>o/
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12:18<frosch123>hai
12:18<samu>looks like the grf is working
12:19<@planetmaker>\o
12:19<samu>in the scenario editor i couldn't place the oil rigs
12:19<samu>as close as I could without the grf
12:19<samu>watch ithttp://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto
12:19<@planetmaker>roidal, there seems to be one crash report related to the window size specified in the openttd.cfg as (1,1)
12:20<andythenorth>samu: 1 day’s work :)
12:20<andythenorth>I predicted 2
12:20<samu>oh
12:20<samu>one thing I noticed was the placement
12:21<samu>the tile I place the oil rig
12:21<samu>is the 0,0 ?
12:21<roidal>planetmaker: i deleted the openttd config/save directory
12:21<samu>it was water
12:21<samu>it wasn't centered
12:21<samu>the placement was not the center
12:21<roidal>planetmaker: so it was a try with clean config
12:22<samu>how do I define the central tile when placing industries in the scenario editor?
12:22<roidal>planetmaker: was able to fix it by puting opengfx-0.5.0.tar into the baseset directory
12:22<andythenorth>there isn’t a central tile
12:22<@planetmaker>uh-hu. sounds like a (new) bug, roidal. Or one I didn't yet see for a long time
12:22<andythenorth>0,0 is usually top-right of industry
12:23<samu>but there was a placement difference with my grf and without it
12:23<andythenorth>you added more magic water tiles around the edge?
12:23<samu>yes
12:24<andythenorth>how many rows?
12:24<samu>wait, i have it in the copy paste somewhere
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>samu: this may be a shot in the dark, but maybe the tilelayout accepts negative numbers, so you can put (0,0) on the actual oil rig tile
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>the one with [] in the original
12:24<andythenorth>if you added tiles, the layout will shift
12:24<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pifc4of5q
12:25<samu>that's my scheme
12:25<roidal>my english is to bad for good bugreports :P
12:25<samu>I added "xx" around the central thing
12:25<samu>oh, they're not there
12:25<samu>so a "xx" surrounding the oilrig
12:26<samu>let me draw, brb
12:26<andythenorth>that likely pushes the placement south
12:27<andythenorth>by 1 tile
12:27<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pca1yskke
12:28<samu>there, I wrote the text for the "xx" tiles with clear, and the others with 0xnn
12:28<samu>and nothing for the blank ones
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12:29<andythenorth>oh, that might not push the layout around
12:29<andythenorth>dunno then
12:29<samu>I started at tile 0,0
12:29<andythenorth>you’re just filling blanks, no expected change
12:29<roidal>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6226
12:29<roidal>hope thats ok so
12:29<samu>which tile does the real oil rig starts?
12:30<samu>it could be that
12:30<samu>0, 0, then 0, 1.. 0, 2... 0, 3...
12:30<samu>maybe the order matters
12:31<andythenorth>order shouldn’t be significant, only position in the grid matters
12:31<andythenorth>eh who understands railtypes?
12:31*andythenorth doesn't
12:33<samu>gonna try starting with coordinates 4, 4
12:33<samu>brb
12:33<andythenorth>can I have a track grf providing ‘RAIL’ and ‘NAAN’ (NG), with engines that can work with both type?
12:33<andythenorth>types *
12:34<andythenorth>the engine needs to be specifically a third track type, mixed, which is compatible with RAIL and NAAN somehow in the railtypes grf
12:34<andythenorth>but I don’t want the mixed railtype to appear in game
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot prevent the railtype from appearing
12:39<andythenorth>in the case of my grf, or general case?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>in general
12:39<andythenorth>that’s ok, I should have worded better
12:39<andythenorth>I don’t want to provide the railtype via Termite (railtype grf)
12:39<andythenorth>nor via Iron Horse
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>as soon as an engine is defined for that railtype, the railtype will appear
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>unless the railtype is not defined at all
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>then the engine will not appear
12:41<andythenorth>that figures
12:41<samu>tried coordinates 4, 4 for first tile, didn't work
12:42<andythenorth>mixed is a stupid idea anyway
12:42<@planetmaker>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/files/0abc76ad1dc9b95066f0b2c0a282819b262643ee/src/railtype_table.pnml <-- might come in handy, andythenorth (used in the vehicle grf)
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>mixed gauge rails are somewhat realistic
12:42<andythenorth>mixed gauge engines, only partly
12:42<andythenorth>quite rare
12:43<samu>how do I define the centered tile for industry placement? It is working correctly with the original oil rig, but not with my edited version
12:43<@planetmaker>you define the upper right tile, samu
12:44<@planetmaker>everything else is relative in the layouts
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you will have to dig for that yourself. oil rigs are somewhat of a special case that probably nobody here ever really investigated
12:44<andythenorth>main objection to adding mixed gauge is that the railtype list grows
12:44<andythenorth>rail, elrail, ng, elng, mixed, elmixed, metro
12:44<samu>define upper right tile?
12:45<andythenorth>Iron Horse and Termite are about limited choices, not excessive choices
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, a mixed gauge engine definitely does not fit a "limited choice" mentality
12:48<andythenorth>means fewer engines overally in the purchase list
12:49<andythenorth>so for one dimension of limited choice, it fits
12:49<andythenorth>given that it’s more universal, it’s also arguably less limited :P
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>but you are talking about two separate purchase lists that are almost never shown combined
12:49<andythenorth>agreed
12:49<andythenorth>I think the idea smells bad
12:49<andythenorth>now you have me convinced
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12:58<frosch123>Alberth: do you maybe have a nice idea for fs#6212 ? :)
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13:01<@Alberth>I looked at your patch an hour ago or so, it looks complicated
13:01<frosch123>exactly :)
13:01<@Alberth>so many different forms of sizes
13:02<frosch123>problem is that min_x and min_y should not be modified and should not depend on font size/gui zoom
13:02<frosch123>they are needed when resizing the window after changing the settings
13:04<@Alberth>? when I have a readme window open, and I increase fontsize, what happens?
13:04<@Alberth>or perhaps, should happen :)
13:04<frosch123>no idea, i meant regular windows like new game
13:04<frosch123>i.e. windows with fixed size, only depending on texts
13:05<@Alberth>ok, same question for say the intro screen window then?
13:05<samu>industry "tile" FFh
13:05<frosch123>well, it should resize to fit the text again
13:05<frosch123>or shrink to fit the text again
13:05<samu>maybe it's not clear, but FFh that I have to write?
13:06<frosch123>if yuo do not scale the window you either end up with huge text overflowing the window
13:06<@Alberth>ok, and how can min_[xy] not change?
13:06<samu>replace "clear" with "0xFF"?
13:06<frosch123>or with small text inside mostly empty panels
13:06<samu>is that what it means?
13:06<frosch123>min_x are those initialised from the widget tree
13:06<andythenorth>you only need FFh if you want to explicitly check that the tile is clear
13:07<andythenorth>over-use of FFh can make industries hard to build
13:07<frosch123>at some point they are copied to smallest_x including various dynamic scaling
13:07<@Alberth>oh, nested widgets parts
13:07<andythenorth>in my experience
13:07<frosch123>the scaling must be done when setting smallest_x, not when setting min_x
13:07<+glx>andythenorth: it's worth when the terrain must be in a precise shape
13:07<frosch123>because the original min_x is unknown after the window has finished construction
13:08<frosch123>so, min_x must only be set by the widget parts as constants, and not depend on font or sprite size or similar
13:08<@Alberth>I wonder why original min_x is not generalized, tbh
13:08<@Alberth>but that's perhaps another matter
13:08<frosch123>generalized?
13:09<samu>I found that here
13:09<samu>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/IndustryDefaultProps#cite_note-1
13:09<samu>the note says FFh for those "xx" tiles
13:09*andythenorth needs to know more about recursive tree structures :P
13:09<andythenorth>location checks for industries are a chain
13:09<samu>how do I write FFh?
13:09<samu>0xFF?
13:09<andythenorth>and to code generate the switch chain, I have to know the chain :P
13:09<andythenorth>this is currently handled manually
13:09<+glx>samu: just use "clear"
13:10<@Alberth>frosch123: current widget parts have sizes that aim for certain sizes of eg lists, but they do not take zoom etc into account
13:10<samu>but clear misaligned it
13:10<frosch123>Alberth: some do, there are widgetsparts to set number of lines
13:10<@Alberth>nice
13:10<frosch123>some widgets initialise themself with some sprite size, e.g. scrollbars
13:10<frosch123>some windows do even more magic (toolbar, server list)
13:11<@Alberth>would rebuilding the window from scratch work?
13:11<andythenorth>example current manual chain https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/industries/grain_mill.pypnml#L65
13:11<andythenorth>L65-69
13:11<@Alberth>the widget-tree, probably
13:11<andythenorth>I want to generate equivalent of that from a python structure
13:11<frosch123>you somehow need to reset the sizes to the original :)
13:11<andythenorth>I know of one way already, but it’s ugly
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you tried to understand CETS' tree.py yet?
13:12<frosch123>there are many windows which do magic in the constructor, i do not fancy calling the constructor again :)
13:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes and no
13:12<andythenorth>I’ve looked at it, remembered and understood nothing :)
13:12*andythenorth goes to look again
13:12<@Alberth>frosch123: right, magic constructors :)
13:13<frosch123>also, the window should not change as it, like selections or manual resizing
13:13<frosch123>just the new minimal sizes need accomodating
13:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: specifically Tree class?
13:13<frosch123>like we do when switching languages
13:13<@Alberth>ok, make a copy of min_[xy] somewhere?
13:13<frosch123>that's what i made :p
13:13<@Alberth>in the same tree shape, for example?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well the idea is that each node in the tree is represented by an object, and handles writing of this object into the resulting file as a switch
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and some function handles traversing the children of the node
13:14<frosch123>but since the input has different units, i need to store it in different members
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13:14<frosch123>remain the magic windows
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>so any line containing "for blah in self.children" handles the traversing
13:14<andythenorth>that is what would work for my case
13:14<@Alberth>makes sense
13:14<samu>glx: clear is how it is right now, but it disaligned the placement tile
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13:14<andythenorth>each location check is a node, and the switches are written by traversing
13:14<andythenorth>I can just do it ugly in the templating, it’s trivial
13:14<andythenorth>but ugly
13:15<andythenorth>I can’t see the required data structure in my head using simple python primitives though (list, dict)
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>and you can change whether the tree is unfold forward or backwards by placing the processing the node before or after the "for blah in self.children" line
13:16<andythenorth>hmm
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS, each node will write one switch, filling out the jump targets with what the children specified
13:17<andythenorth>I can’t see how to do my case without adding some classes for node types
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, one switch for the purchase chain, and one switch for the normal chain
13:17<andythenorth>which seems all wrong
13:17<@Alberth>make a condition class, one for each condition, and have a list of such objects?
13:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: node types are perfectly valid
13:17<andythenorth>yeah, isn’t that a bit architecture-astronaut?
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13:17<andythenorth>if nobody’s screaming “over-engineering” I’m just going to to classes
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have a special type for leaves (sprites)
13:18<andythenorth>doing it on the templating would rely on tracking current loop number, and using that as an index into the next item
13:18<andythenorth>ugly
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>and another type for templates, which sort of work like sprites, but need different processing
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>it might also be cleaner if i differentiated the internal nodes by condition type
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>which currently works more like an attribute
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>attributes i must handle in if-chains in the write function
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>whereas node types would have different write functions which are called polymorphic
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13:22<andythenorth>ok, you have me convinced
13:22<andythenorth>sky won’t fall if I add a location check type, and subclass it
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>there are many solutions to this
13:23<andythenorth>yes
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>CETS is probably not the structually best one
13:24<samu>hey, I just tried 0xFF, it also works, but made no difference
13:24<andythenorth>it’s barely a tree, really just a linear list, unless I grouped them by location check type
13:24<samu>the placement tile is still misaligned
13:24<@Alberth>frosch123: traverse the widget parts while following the tree, and pulling out the minimal sizes only? Will probably fail at a few points
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>samu: means you're probably hung up on a misconception, and the real solution is somewhere else
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13:26<andythenorth>so for your grf / default industries, you get different industry placement results for building on same tile?
13:26<andythenorth>your tile offsets are different to default industry, or the default industry is doing magic (unlikely, but possible)
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13:27*andythenorth ponders
13:27<andythenorth>I could ‘just’ calculate the incompatible industries based on accepted / produced cargo
13:27<andythenorth>TMWFTLB?
13:28<andythenorth>currently maintained manually, often forgotten when adding new types
13:28<@Alberth>sounds as a nice check at least
13:28<andythenorth>urgh
13:28<andythenorth>industries that randomise cargo on build
13:29<andythenorth>who’s stupid idea was that? :P
13:29<andythenorth>breaks industry chain view also
13:29<@Alberth>/me does not mention any names :p
13:29<andythenorth>industry chain view, one of my favourite feature additions ;)
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i assume i've always argued against it with exactly that reason
13:30<@Alberth>mine too, for alien industry sets :)
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13:30<andythenorth>should I remove it? :P
13:30<andythenorth>one industry only
13:30<andythenorth>eh, one thing at once
13:31<andythenorth>rewrite entire codebase, then change things
13:31<@Alberth>you could add checks for all possible cargoes
13:31*andythenorth remembers about not biting off too much refactoring at once
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13:31<andythenorth>due to leaving an unshippable mess
13:32<andythenorth>maybe I calculate incompatible cargos automatically later
13:32<andythenorth>maybe it’s just an assert :P
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13:33<@Alberth>assert False # make sure we don't generate a bad newgrf :p
13:33<andythenorth>assert Silly Ideas
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13:34<samu>tile offset
13:38<andythenorth>in your tile layout
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>"LEGO Doctor Who"... wtf?
13:41<samu>where is it?
13:42<andythenorth>http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/
13:42<andythenorth>http://www.brothers-brick.com
13:43<@Alberth>ha :)
13:43<samu>i'm gonna try something crazy
13:43<samu>negative coordinates
13:43<samu>lel
13:46<andythenorth>urgh, are all industries incompatible with self?
13:47<andythenorth>but eh, still need a distance
13:47<andythenorth>nvm, /me back to code
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: unless they are in clusters
13:47<andythenorth>that’s actually just an expression of distance
13:47<andythenorth>clusters still have a min separation on same type :)
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but distance within clusters may be different from distance to other incompatible industries
13:49*andythenorth needs a usable API for defining behaviour per industry, the internal API can be somewhat different ;)
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13:50<andythenorth>frosch123: any gut feeling on how number of switches affects nmlc compile time?
13:51<frosch123>nope
13:52*andythenorth should keep a log of current compile time
13:52<andythenorth>I have 66 industries
13:52<frosch123>you have a vcs :)
13:53<andythenorth>I am consolidating 66 production change and random production change cbs to about 6 :P
13:53<frosch123>recompile some older version, that way you use the same compiler
13:53<andythenorth>indeed
13:53<frosch123>smatz used to have logs for compile time of ottd
13:53<andythenorth>66 colour-handling cbs to 1
13:53<frosch123>then he bought a new faster computer, and let it run for a week to recompile thousands of revisions :)
13:54<andythenorth>probably at least a few hundred switches going to die
13:54<andythenorth>doesn’t sound that significant though
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13:55<andythenorth>each industry’s graphics chain probably has hundreds of switches in it just to handle things like snow and fences
13:57<@Alberth>count them in the resulting nml file?
13:58<andythenorth>they’re hidden inside the magic spritelayout calculation stuff
13:59<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/spritelayouts.pynml
13:59<andythenorth>the resulting nml is much more complex than that though :P
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CETS has in the order of 100000 switches
14:00<andythenorth>you can have a prize :)
14:00<andythenorth>stuff like this I suspect eats up switches
14:00<@Alberth>it's not simple grep "switch(" firs.nml | wc -l ?
14:00<andythenorth> hide_sprite: (climate != CLIMATE_ARCTIC) || (climate == CLIMATE_ARCTIC) && ((nearby_tile_height(0, 0) < (snowline_height + 1)) || (nearby_tile_height(0, 0) >= (snowline_height + 2)));
14:01<andythenorth>nah, these advanced spritelayouts are magical
14:01<andythenorth> hide_sprite: (construction_state != 3) || (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) >= 1920;
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14:02<samu>it worked
14:02<samu>:)
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14:02<andythenorth> hide_sprite: (climate != CLIMATE_TROPIC) || ((climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(0, 0) == TILETYPE_DESERT)) || ((climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(0, 0) == TILETYPE_NORMAL) && ((nearby_tile_terrain_type( 1, 0) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(-1, 0) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type( 0, 1) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_typ
14:02<andythenorth>0,-1) != TILETYPE_DESERT) ) );
14:02<andythenorth>:P
14:02<andythenorth>enough spam already
14:03<andythenorth>there are hundreds of lines of this per industry
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that may be fewer switches, but loads of advanced varaction 2
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>which may be computationally more expensive
14:03<andythenorth>yes
14:04<andythenorth>I’m guessing that cutting out a few hundred production cb switches is a drop in the ocean
14:04<andythenorth>‘guessing' being the significant word
14:04<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/puppcojlg
14:04<andythenorth>samu: still done within 1 day
14:04<samu>there it is, it works, placement tile works correctly like that
14:05<andythenorth>did you break anything? Default oil rig is date restricted
14:05<andythenorth>tile acceptance still correct?
14:05<andythenorth>production look correct?
14:05<samu>I have no idea
14:05<samu>i was only testing placement now
14:05<samu>ships are no longer blocked
14:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: remove one industry, and measure? that should be about 1/66 of the total number of switches
14:05<samu>and the center tile is 0,0
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>samu: well, i suggested that solution two hours ago
14:06<samu>ok, i am slow
14:06*andythenorth tests from unprimed caches
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you should work on your ability to extract the important bits of information
14:07<andythenorth>look at andythenorth, always listens first time
14:07<andythenorth>a shining example
14:12<samu>oil rig isn't being generated
14:12<samu>gah
14:12<samu>date thing?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>oil rigs are never generated on map start
14:14<andythenorth>adjust the probability so they are in this newgrf? o_O
14:14<andythenorth>prob_random iirc
14:14<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_properties
14:15<samu>i dont wanna change that, just use all other values for that
14:15<samu>ah nevermind, I didn't want long enough, two have spawned
14:15<samu>wait*
14:15<samu>3
14:15<samu>4
14:15<samu>fast forward is nice
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>oil rigs are meant to never be available at game start, but have an increased chance of spawning during the game
14:18<andythenorth>hmm /me building trees in head
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds unhealthy
14:23<@Alberth>with lego sounds much better :)
14:30<andythenorth>lego trees are one piece
14:30<andythenorth>shocking juniorisation
14:31<samu>question, how many oil rigs are supposed to spawn with medium water, high industries, 512x512?
14:31<samu>nevermind
14:32<samu>how to maintain the same map spawn?
14:32<samu>seed ?
14:32<samu>there is no seed option anymore
14:33<frosch123>console
14:33<frosch123>you read the seed via console
14:33<frosch123>you set it via console
14:33<frosch123>getseed
14:33<frosch123>newgame 12345
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>or just "restart"
14:34<samu>i wanna compare oil rig grf vs default
14:34<samu>how many would spawn in each
14:36<Supercheese>then yeah, run game with newgrf for X years, check num oil rigs (perhaps repeat and average), then check the seed, remove grf and start newgame with same seed, repeat
14:37<Supercheese>it'll be subject to randomness, so beware
14:40<samu>31 with grf, 32 without
14:40<samu>but yeah, there's some variances here
14:40<samu>36 banks vs 32 banks
14:40<Supercheese>but probably no statistically significant difference
14:41<Supercheese>if you increased sample size
14:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: lego trees were already a single piece 30+ years ago when I played with it :)
14:41<andythenorth>it’s a standard lego troll :)
14:41<andythenorth>people complain about ‘modern lego is all one big piece'
14:41<@Alberth>:D
14:42<frosch123>sell lego saws
14:42<@Alberth>don't use glue?
14:42<andythenorth>my (python not lego) tree is suffering from some andythenorth issues
14:43<andythenorth>I want a trivial way to get the next node while in a loop
14:43<andythenorth>I can’t see one :P
14:43<samu>empty world fast forwarding to 2051
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "yield"
14:44<andythenorth>you mean I have to read the itertools docs? :P
14:44<andythenorth>I have been avoiding this
14:44<andythenorth> ${location_checks[repeat.location_check.index+1]}
14:44<andythenorth>tends to exceed the length of the list on last iteration :P
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>have a sentinel in the list
14:45<andythenorth>sentinel says ‘go no further'?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:45<andythenorth>how to implement
14:45<andythenorth>oh, I could just use ternary op
14:45<andythenorth>not for sentinel, but in the template
14:45<andythenorth>:P
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>in the easiest case, sentinel is just "None"
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, you could also use get()
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>instead of [] operator
14:47<andythenorth>no get on lists
14:47<andythenorth>unless it was added since I checked 2 mins ago
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>try/except would work also
14:48<andythenorth>not in single line template code
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you clearly could use an iterator here
14:48<andythenorth> ${location_checks[repeat.location_check.index+1].industry_type if index < len(location_checks) else 'CB_RESULT_LOCATION_ALLOW'}
14:48<andythenorth>seems to work
14:49<andythenorth>or fail silently :(
14:50*andythenorth fixes
14:51<samu>year 2051 on both, heh, I'm surprised
14:51<andythenorth>hrm
14:51<andythenorth>this is ugly
14:51<samu>55 oil rigs with fix, 47 default oil rig
14:52-!-garb [~oftc-webi@193.255.88.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:52<samu>okay, so it is working, what now? will you put it in the game?
14:52<andythenorth>is it really wrong for a node to store a reference to the next node directly?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you are the author, what happens next is all on you
14:52<andythenorth>instead of buggering around looking up using list indices?
14:53<@Alberth>it defeats the idea of having a list :p
14:53<@Alberth>otherwise, it's fine :)
14:53<@Alberth>bit C-ish, though
14:53<samu>what do you mean? where do I upload this thing?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: .next()
14:53<Supercheese>you can put it on Bananas if you want
14:54<samu>bananas ? isn't it going to be part of the main game?
14:54-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:54<samu>t.t
14:54<Supercheese>a newgrf cannot be directly made a part of trunk
14:55<Supercheese>a source patch would be required
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>samu: generally, the default industries will not be changed
14:56<andythenorth>potentially breaks AIs, scenarios, gamescripts, newgrfs
14:57<@Alberth>making a patch for opengfx+industries is also an option, perhaps the authors of opengfx+industries want to add it
14:57*andythenorth gives in and reads itertools docs
14:57<andythenorth>:(
14:57<@Alberth>is that any good?
14:57<andythenorth>if you can’t do it with ‘for..in’ it’s not worth doing :(
14:58<andythenorth>eh there’s loads of that, forget it
14:58<samu>hmm, so ships will always be blocked
14:58<samu>because ... gah... :(
14:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: ${ ..... } doesn't mean anything to me
14:58<andythenorth>nah it wouldn’t
14:58<@Alberth>samu: that's why many people don't play with default industries
14:59<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc78spoml is this the source?
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14:59<samu>no that's not the right one, oops
14:59<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/puppcojlg
15:00<@Alberth>if nml accepts it, yes, it counts as source :)
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>samu: the source must include all used files (e.g. english.lng), and scripts used for compilation
15:00<Supercheese>a patch for opengfx+ industries seems like a decent idea
15:01<samu>ok, bananas is where I put source stuff?
15:01<samu>where is that bananas
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>no, on bananas you put the .grf
15:01<V453000>holy fuck XD my quest: Create one train model, render it in 8 rotations while all 8 are in some way scaled, and render those in 10 various cuts for each articulated part XD everything in one click
15:01<V453000>setting up = mind explodes
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i do the cutting in nml
15:02<samu>http://bananas.openttd.org/en
15:03<V453000>that is certainly an option Eddi, but I 1. dont want to do that because tedious and ugh numbers :P and 2. will have some easter eggs inside of the trains, only seen when turning
15:03<V453000>idk if it will be visible when turning
15:03<V453000>but yeah :D
15:03<V453000>though at the same time it is probably stupid wasting of grfsize
15:03<V453000>well, I can always assign a matter material to the inside cut
15:03<V453000>matte*
15:05<@Alberth>samu: you can also make a post in the newgrf releases forum
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, if they split anyway when turning, just model the two halves separately
15:05<V453000>nice :> made it work + learned something new :)
15:05<V453000>Eddi that is less manageable, better to have one model which is split automatically
15:06<V453000>easier edits, ...
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine your render apparatus has the concept of "layers" which you can just enable or disable
15:06<V453000>yes
15:06<V453000>I set up an automatic way which switches between layers automatically now :)
15:06<V453000>manual would be hell
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:06<andythenorth>remarkably stupid, but it works https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnduplzx4
15:06<V453000>and even better, it can also switch between trains :)
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15:09<samu>nope, i'm banned from the forum
15:09<samu>or restricted
15:09<samu>something like that
15:10<samu>orudge is taking care of my account
15:10<V453000>the only problem I am having so far is how to easily select just some trains to render XD
15:10<V453000>currently selecting/deselecting one is 10 clicks
15:10<V453000>which is a lot considering a mass of trains
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15:11<Wolf01>hi hi
15:12<@Alberth>o/
15:12<samu>i'm fïguring out a decent title for this grf
15:13<andythenorth>ho ho
15:13<samu>"Oil Rig Layout That Won't Block Ships"?
15:13<andythenorth>I always forget you can’t do ‘return list.reverse()’ :P
15:13<@Alberth>too techy
15:13<andythenorth>More Navigable Oil Rigs
15:14<@Alberth>Spacy Oil Rigs
15:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: list(reversed([1,2,3])) :)
15:14<samu>Fixed Oil Rig Layout for Ships?
15:15<samu>hmm
15:15<samu>Oil Rig for Ships
15:15<@Alberth>Oil Rig implies ships already :)
15:15<andythenorth>oh yeah I have to call list on it again
15:15<samu>eh, ok
15:15<andythenorth>do I actually care that it’s a list?
15:15<andythenorth>iterable would do, but the order needs to be reliable
15:16<@Alberth>outer "list" is only to force the iterator to get unfolded to a list
15:16*andythenorth adds the list
15:16<@Alberth>order is decided by whatever you put as argument in reversed
15:16<andythenorth>yes
15:17<andythenorth>it always puzzles me that I can’t call list.reverse() on the same operation as anything else
15:17<andythenorth>on / in /s
15:17<andythenorth>but eh
15:17<andythenorth>nvm
15:17<@Alberth>just like you cannot return list.sort()
15:17<andythenorth>that trips me up often also :)
15:17<andythenorth>nvm
15:18<@Alberth>your code looks like there should be a nicer alternative, but I cannot come up with one
15:19<samu>"Improved Oil Rig Layout"
15:19<samu>that's it
15:19<andythenorth>Alberth: there will be fancier ones :P
15:19<andythenorth>stupid can be simple
15:21<@Alberth>yeah, alternatives don't look like they are going to be easier to understand
15:22<@Alberth>reversed order would fail I guess?
15:22<@Alberth>that would be much easier
15:22<andythenorth>reversed order?
15:23<andythenorth>of the result?
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15:25<samu>help me at english
15:25<samu>docking in? docking on?
15:25<andythenorth>docking at
15:26<samu>STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION :v{VERSION} - This Oil Rig Layout won't block ships docking on when an Oil Rig is spawned in front of another Oil Rig.
15:26<samu>at
15:26<samu>ok thx
15:26<andythenorth>or just ‘docking’ in that sentence
15:26<andythenorth>- on
15:26<samu>ty
15:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pmbcr4rmo this should just work, as I don't change result itself, I think
15:27*andythenorth tests
15:28<andythenorth>does need reversed
15:28<andythenorth>when rendered, last switch is first and so on
15:29<andythenorth>logical order of chain is inverted w.r.t to how templating loops
15:29<samu>how do I upload the 4 files to bananas?
15:29<samu>it only lets me pick one
15:30<andythenorth>tar
15:30*andythenorth just calls reversed on result
15:30<samu>tar?
15:30<samu>i need 7-zip for that?
15:30<samu>grr
15:30<@Alberth>no, tar
15:31<samu>isn't tar an archive?
15:31<samu>do you accept zip?
15:31<@Alberth>yes, and zip is another one, and rar is another one, and 7z is another one
15:32<@Alberth>no, just tar
15:32<@Alberth>afaik
15:33<samu>license? I have no idea
15:34<samu>what license do i pick
15:35<andythenorth>ho, now I have a node without industry_type prop
15:35<andythenorth>interesting
15:35<frosch123>http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Wayne-Alan-magic-show-lady-saw-in-half.jpg <- V453000: will your wagons look like that? :p
15:35<V453000>they could. :)
15:38<samu>minimum openttd version? I have no idea
15:38<samu>i tested in 1.5.0-beta1
15:38<samu>what do i put there
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15:40<samu>License: this field is required
15:40<samu>what goes there?
15:42<@Alberth>does it accept 1.5 ?
15:42<samu>no, highest version is 1.4.4
15:42<@Alberth>(version)
15:44<samu>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/new
15:44<samu>im using this
15:44<samu>do i put the .grf file inside the tar?
15:44<samu>or just the others?
15:46<andythenorth>ho ho https://paste.openttdcoop.org/podilmqzz
15:46<andythenorth>seems to work
15:46<andythenorth>I hate the string concatenation
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably put 1.2.0 in the version
15:46<andythenorth>that can die later
15:46<andythenorth>assembling CPP with python :P
15:46<andythenorth>bonkers
15:48<andythenorth>ah fricking hg branches
15:48<andythenorth>how did I end up on default?
15:49<andythenorth>now I have to revert commits and cherry pick
15:49<samu>what license?
15:50<andythenorth>can I even cherrry pick?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>samu: license is a very complicated issue
15:50*andythenorth sad face
15:50<samu>there should be a none
15:51<samu>i'd pick that
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>there cannot be a none
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>samu: with "none" you would forbid bananas to send the file to the players.
15:52<frosch123>samu: use "cc-by", if that is an option
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you have to thoroughly study the license you pick
15:52<frosch123>that is likely the most "none" you can get
15:52<frosch123>i.e. it allows about everything for everyone
15:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: incompatible is a dict? that's not stable
15:54<samu>"I don't care" license
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>samu: that would be the WTFPL
15:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I know, doesn’t matter, because I build the tree later
15:54<frosch123>samu: "cc-0" then
15:54<@Alberth>WTFPL :p
15:55<andythenorth>only the order of the nodes types in the tree matters, if that makes sense, order of individual nodes within their type is insignificant
15:55<@Alberth>ok
15:55<samu>•Unknown file in pack: custom_tags.txt
15:55<samu>:(
15:55<samu>how come
15:55<frosch123>do you have a readme or changelog?
15:55<andythenorth>I now have a reusable template for tertiary industries :D
15:55<samu>nop
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>samu: that's a source file, that should not be in there
15:55<andythenorth>instead of a template for every tertiary industry
15:55<frosch123>if you only have a grf, you can directly upload that one, don't bother abuot tar
15:56<samu>ok, I see
15:56<@Alberth>andythenorth: progress :)
15:56<andythenorth>been bothering me
15:56<andythenorth>6 industry templates shows flexibility
15:56<andythenorth>66 templates is bonkers
15:56<@Alberth>make a meta-template :p
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15:57<andythenorth>been there, done that :P
15:57<@Alberth>:D
15:57<andythenorth>I could code generate the meta-template
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>there's not much point in a template if it's only used once...
15:57<andythenorth>I could code-generate the code-generator
15:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +lots
15:57<samu>its uploaded, what is that dependency thing?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>samu: dependency is probably nothing you have to worry about
15:58<frosch123>it's for scenarios and scripts
15:58<frosch123>newgrfs never have dependencies
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>samu: it's "when you download this, it should automatically download that and that"
15:59<samu>ah, how do I delete it?
15:59<frosch123>there is some edit button somewhere
16:01<samu>what are those tunnel whatever dependency? how did they get there? omg i screwed
16:01<frosch123>on your manager page you can press edit
16:02<frosch123>and edit the description, version requirements and dependencies
16:02<samu>how do i remove all those dependencies? I don't see how
16:02<samu>it's a huge list
16:02<frosch123>don't select any
16:03<frosch123>it always lists everything, it matters what you select :p
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16:03<samu>•!! BK Enhanced Tunnels
16:04<samu>screw that, I don't know how to remove that
16:04<samu>I keep pressing edit
16:05<frosch123>well, are you sure you even added it?
16:05<frosch123>as said, it lists "options", that does not mean "selected options"
16:06<samu>i can only select
16:06<samu>can't unselect
16:06<frosch123>well, then don't select :p
16:06<frosch123>it resets when editing
16:06<samu>it is already selected when I press Edit
16:06<samu>so i want to unselect
16:10<frosch123>ctrl+click?
16:10<samu>COOL, that was it
16:17<samu>Unhandled Exception
16:17<samu>An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
16:18<samu>nevermind, version had to be 2
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16:20<samu>how do i delete version 1?
16:20<samu>version 2 has better descriptions and name
16:20<frosch123>you don't care
16:20<samu>ok
16:20<frosch123>version 2 hides version 1
16:21<samu>delete it for me if you can
16:21<frosch123>it's the intention of bananas to never delete things
16:21<frosch123>it's essentially the reason it exists
16:22<samu>it didn't hide version 1
16:22<samu>now i see two different grfs
16:22<samu>:(
16:23<samu>Improved Oil Rig Layout and Oil Rig 1
16:23<samu>they do the same, it's just how I titled it
16:23<samu>how do i remove the oil rig 1?
16:24<frosch123>just logout, then you don't see it anymore
16:25<frosch123>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/newgrf/ <- as you can see, there is only version 2
16:27<samu>gah, v2 says v1
16:27<samu>this is confusing
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16:32<samu>min_compatible_version must be equal to itself?
16:32<samu>ifi want to hide the previous versoons?
16:32<frosch123>no
16:32<frosch123>previous version are always hidden
16:33<samu>why can I see it then?
16:36<samu>https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pQFjahWgN1kVuFvT17XqldkgUkjCJgDPU6C-3wAZCt4IQRXbU0HvHBe8VHeVad_rM1BaTc78GmjtXL_CMnzedHnXc6Pwc37C3vt1xu-AygZrGZDIKEqtj99941z2PIEt-mCkY8KNQq9P3zjIgHvZ98Q/Two%20Oil%20Rig%20versions.png?psid=1
16:36<samu>I see two versions listed
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16:42<samu>0
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16:45<samu>sorry, I closed this window
16:45<samu>was there an answer?
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17:07<samu>ah, is this it? http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Starting_an_NML_file#OpenTTD_targeted_NewGRFs
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17:18<samu>got it
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17:19<samu>version 3 uploaded, I hope all versions match
17:19<samu>everywhere
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17:31<Wolf01>'night
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18:02<NGC3982>dude bro
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18:03<NGC3982>dis is the best metroid game ever
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18:53<dreck>hi
18:59<dreck>just for the sake of trying to use an uniform scale would you probably say that for example a 2-axle wagon was a length of 1 .. typical trucks wagon would be 2 .. and 3-axle coaches might sit at 1.5 (as to fudge things so two of these would be an even length)
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to go a overlong wagon way, the long wagon could be 12lu (meaning 1.5 times a default wagon)
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>short wagon would then be 6lu, and medium wagon 8lu
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>where lu is a "length unit"
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>16lu make one tile
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>long wagons, however, are tricky to code and might glitch
19:05<samu>aircraft refited to mail gives too much money
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>aircraft [...] gives too much money.
19:05<samu>way much more then
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>aircraft are boring
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>you can't organize them properly
19:06<dreck>samu...airplanes are meant to be paired with basecost to put it in blunt terms...
19:07<dreck>they came too cheap in all numbers by default and even grfs still follow the same path too :->
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>use maintenance cost for airports. go bankrupt.
19:07<samu>I remember the other time I was here, last year or 2, complaining about refiting aircraft to mail
19:07<samu>the ratio
19:07<dreck>eddi ah...didn't think I've heard of this 'lu' measurement before..makes more sense...thanks :)
19:07*dreck will look it up
19:07<samu>in comparison with TTDX
19:08<samu>forgot what it was exactly, grr
19:08<samu>my head
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: i was trying to spread it, but nobody ever caught on. everybody calls it "/8"
19:08<dreck>samu..one thing I liked in the true original planes tho was that you could refit for any freights and not only mail/goods :)
19:08<dreck>at least russiaplanes (forgot exact grf name) has some good all-freight planes in its buylist
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>av8 definitely has some all-cargo aircraft
19:09<samu>the refiting cargo in openttd mismatch the values of ttdx
19:09<samu>and I was trying to figure the formula, do you remember ?
19:10<dreck>samu mind you the one thing that still annoys me is how noone can make a passenger-only plane :-s but heh no comment
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>no
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: well, you can easily set the mail capacity to 0... but passenger planes are meant to carry mail...
19:10<samu>I even used dosbox
19:11<dreck>so eddi.. 16lu is 1.0 ... 8lu would be 0.5 etc?
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: yes
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>8lu is a standard wagon
19:11<dreck>eddi...the problem is when you have a passenger-only network and now your station is messed up with lot of mail piling up :-s
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>wagons longer than that need to be made of parts, and then trickery added to make them not bend or glitch (that much)
19:11<dreck>making you have to either compound the runaway traffic with mail-only planes to clear the load out or ..convert some trains to less passenger capacity just to get mail ...etca ... heh -_-
19:12<dreck>ah yeah articulated sprites..I've seen a few samples of these so I know what you mean
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>this is the early steps of that: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53511 parts of that are now outdated, others are better developed
19:15<samu>my memory really sucks
19:15<Supercheese>get more RAM then ;)
19:16<samu>do you have a log of this chat of 2 years ago or so? want to find where I talked about it
19:16<Supercheese> @logs may have it
19:16<samu>@logs?
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>@logs
19:16<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
19:16<Supercheese>^ those
19:19<samu>An error occured, which was not logged, and was not reported to anybody. It might be your fault, or it might be mine.
19:19<samu>i can't search
19:22<dreck>eddi mm thanks for that small thread .. I don't think I even got anything long planned for yet ... other than maybe one or two garratt-style locomotives but cheers :)
19:22<samu>according to some dosbox screenshots it was around May 2015
19:22<samu>oops 2014
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19:46<+glx>you can browse by date
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20:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think the backup bugged out again
20:42<Supercheese>Indeed...
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21:05<dreck>backup?
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21:58<samu>aha, i found it
21:58<samu>http://i.imgur.com/CWMyrmj.jpg
22:01<samu>http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2014-05-10?page=2
22:01<samu>bottom part of that page
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23:28<Pikkaphone>orudge: does "the nightly backup" now take several hours? It was the same yesterday afternoon...
---Logclosed Thu Feb 05 00:00:59 2015