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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-05

---Logopened Thu Feb 05 00:00:59 2015
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00:14<ST2>yup, the "nightly backup" has some issues
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00:16<ST2>there's 2 options: or the server is with problems or nightly posts are unwanted :S
00:16<ST2>anyway, I guess it's the 1st, so, best luck on solving it :)
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02:08<Eddi|zuHause>"this website is only open from 6 to 18 o'clock" :p
02:09<__ln__>that would conserve energy
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02:53<andythenorth>o/
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04:04<@planetmaker>moin
04:07<V453000>hy
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06:04<V453000>:D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/DOOM/DOOM_test_1_0000.png
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06:17<V453000>am starting to wonder if 72 sprites per vehicle is a great idea XD
06:24<@planetmaker>V453000, well, you cannot compose a vehicle view from several sprites - unless you count articulation; but there technically each part is a separate vehicle
06:24<V453000>they are articulated yes :)
06:24<@planetmaker>but then, I'm sure you know that
06:25<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki/DOOM
06:25<V453000>I want articulated vehicles made of 9 parts
06:25<V453000>1+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+1 lengths of consists (16/8 total)
06:25<V453000>bending everywhere XD
06:25<V453000>of course I can replace the central 2s to put there normal 2x8/8 at any point
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06:26<@planetmaker>aye
06:26<V453000>I just want to see how much WTF is bending everywhere going to be
06:27<V453000>so far I assume it could be glitch free XD
06:27<V453000>question is whether it would look good at all
06:27<V453000>my logic was that since I already always use the articulation, and since I already have to use at least 2 units to create full 16/8, might as well do the whole thing :D
06:28<V453000>because when the engine would bend in half I feel like it would feel more like a mistake than if it bent everywhere
06:28<V453000>thoughts?
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06:45<@planetmaker>definitely worth a try
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06:59<V453000>k :)
07:06-!-andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd
07:07<andythenorth>ho
07:08<andythenorth>makefile rule
07:08<andythenorth>INDUSTRY_PYPNML_SRC = $(INDUSTRY_PY_SRC:.py=.pypnml)
07:09<andythenorth>but now I have a an industry that doesn’t have .pypnml file
07:09<andythenorth>so make fails :)
07:10<andythenorth>sticking plaster is to leave an empty .pypnml file in
07:17<V453000>WTF = yes
07:18<V453000>vehicul turned to bits :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/DOOM/DOOM_test_1_0000.png
07:18<V453000>say something about over-engineered andythenorth ?
07:20<andythenorth>V453000: looks appropriately engineered
07:20<andythenorth>V453000: do you hate bendy trains still?
07:21<V453000>idk XD
07:21<andythenorth>I am thinking that bendy trains might be wtf awesome
07:21<V453000>yeah
07:21<andythenorth>eddi’s stuff with extra turning angles is impressive, but for a cartoon-esque game, I think bendy is the way to go
07:21<V453000>no glitches in tunnels and shit
07:21*andythenorth considers bendy trucks :P
07:21<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/DOOM/DOOM_test_2_0000.png
07:21<V453000>basic train cut to shit
07:21<andythenorth>call it FLOW :P
07:22<V453000>me likes doom :)
07:22<andythenorth>anyway, make them all organic-ish
07:22<andythenorth>job done
07:22<V453000>eventually :P
07:23<V453000>but yeah that is ze progress :D might attempt some coding in the evening
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07:35<DanMacK>Hey all
07:35<V453000>hihi
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07:40<@peter1138>Ew stretched
07:49<V453000>peter dont tell me you recognize 15,5% stretch :P
07:50<V453000>well ok it is somewhat visible, but not that terribly
07:50<V453000>as in, yes visible, but the rounded shapes dont get so ellipsoidy as they did before :D
07:51<V453000>PS I managed to write a simple javascript bullshit to position my sprites XD
07:51<V453000>feels awesome
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08:29<samu>hi
08:29<samu>main page copyright year: Copyright © 2005-2014 OpenTTD Team
08:29<samu>it's 2015
08:30<samu>http://www.openttd.org/en/
08:31<Flygon>andythenorth: Why not both bendy AND extra angles?
08:31<Flygon>El Pasó had the solution all along!
08:31<Flygon>And I? still getting used to this keyboard
08:36<@peter1138>samu, has the main page changed?
08:37<@peter1138>samu, maybe you need to read up on what the copyright date means?
08:38<samu>nop, still says 2014
08:38<@peter1138>That is not what I asked.
08:38<samu>ah
08:38<samu>what does it mean?
08:41<@peter1138>It's the copyright date...
08:41<@peter1138>Not the current year.
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08:42<@peter1138>If changes are made this year, then the date will be changed.
08:44<samu>what kind of changes?
08:44<samu>news posts?
08:46<@peter1138>Anything.
08:46<@peter1138>(But not automated stuff)
08:47<samu>okay
08:52<samu>interesting feature about oil rigs I noticed
08:53<samu>I can find the build date by land area information at the station tile
08:53<samu>but not on the industry itself
08:56<samu>how do I export game settings from a server that is not mine?
08:56<samu>wanted to recreate the landscape
08:57<samu>but apply a newgrf
09:01<samu>actually I wanted to recreate the world, not only landscape
09:01<samu>and also use the specific game settings for vehicles, industries etc~
09:04<samu>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/76220
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09:04<samu>this server
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10:44<samu>how do I export game settings from a server that is not mine?
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10:55<@planetmaker>samu, other than taking a savegame and looking at settings, there is no nice way to extract settings. Though you can load it and look then at settings and it will tell you the difference to default at least. Not sure whether to yours as well
10:56<samu>oh, good idea
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11:00<@Alberth>moin
11:11<samu>Setting with a different value than your new game settings :)
11:11<samu>useful
11:13<samu>any way to "use these settings with a different value than your new game settings" as the newer game settings? or must I set them all one by one?
11:25<samu>how do i find the sea quantity value?
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11:26<samu>Sea level
11:26<samu>it's not under World Generation
11:27<@Alberth>probably a variable that you can query in the console
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11:29<@Alberth>moin
11:30<frosch123>hola
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11:58<samu>hey, i managed to recreate the same landscape, but not the same spawning position of towns
11:58<samu>or industries
12:00<samu>wait, no, landscape is slightly different
12:00<samu>there's water in the SE borders
12:01<samu>the rest is equal
12:06<samu>aha, one step closer to recreate it equal, now the problem is the number of towns generated
12:07<samu>it creates the same town names in the same positions, but it is creating some extra ones, how do I figure out
12:13<samu>got it!
12:13<samu>muahahah, now starting to test stuff
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12:38<samu>hey, just had an idea for estimated cost
12:39<samu>merge it with tooltip
12:39<samu>and get rid of holding shift key
12:41<@Alberth>you have to press both mouse buttons instead?
12:41<samu>no, it would show up
12:42<@Alberth>not with my settings, I have to press rmb
12:42<samu>hold left click - the yellow thing shows up
12:42<samu>for example
12:42<samu>build a road from A to B, it shows lenght, then it could also show estimated cost in the same tooltip
12:43<samu>for single click
12:44<@Alberth>like I said, I have my tooltips connected to the rmb
12:44<samu>hold left click for the estimated cost popup, if you wanna build, release left click
12:44<samu>if you wanna cancel, drag over the toolbar
12:44<samu>and won't build
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27136 trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt (2015-02-05 17:45:18 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
12:45<@Alberth>I just HATE automagic popups, they're always covering pieces I want to see
12:45<samu>ah:(
12:45<@Alberth>I also don't display length
12:47<@Alberth>and cost isn't that interesting either, imho, I always have more than enough
12:48<samu>then, the shift-key would be free for some other use :)
12:48<samu>but oh well
12:49<@Alberth>magic keys like control or shift are not that useful any more, touch tablets etc don't have those keys
12:50<@Alberth>that's going to be increasingly a problem, I think
12:57<samu>rats, just noticed something odd
12:57<samu>the oil rig spawning is spawning
12:57<samu>not on the borders
12:58<samu>but futher inside the land
12:58<samu>the grf i created
12:58<samu>correction: not only on the borders, but also further inside mainland
13:04<@Alberth>there is a settings that controls how far from the border it may spawn, afaik
13:17-!-igorsenvad [~oftc-webi@177.137.227.198] has joined #openttd
13:17<igorsenvad>hello
13:18<igorsenvad>I need help
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13:20<@Alberth>ask a question, and you may get it
13:20<samu>no, that's only for Oil Refinery
13:20<samu>I missed some properties
13:20<samu>most likely
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13:24<@Alberth>oh, indeed, sorry
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13:27<igorsenvad>hello
13:27<igorsenvad>I have server default openttd, was wanting to put a game mode, style "Quick Goal" but I don't know how, I searched for gamescripts but it is complex. Want a server to play with my friends that who can achieve such value of firm WINS. How do I do it?
13:29<@Alberth>donwload a gamescript of your choice
13:30<@Alberth>in the intro screen, open the "ai/game" window, and activate the game script
13:30<@Alberth>back in the intro screen, start a MP game
13:30<igorsenvad>I don't think a gamescript in this style "quick goal"
13:31<@Alberth>what does that mean?
13:32<@Alberth>what is "quick goal" to you?
13:32<igorsenvad>Type a game mode where one reaches 15 million won
13:33<igorsenvad>15 million value company
13:33<@Alberth>oh, right
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13:33<@Alberth>you could be right, I don't remember seeing such a script
13:34<@Alberth>but I don't care for such goals either, so maybe my memory is wrong
13:34<andythenorth>I don’t know of that goal
13:34<andythenorth>not the hardest GS to code probably
13:35<andythenorth>igorsenvad: try NoCarGoal (NCG)
13:35<andythenorth>it’s not what you asked, but you can set it for a quick goal
13:35<andythenorth>it’s time based though, not ‘first to win'
13:35<igorsenvad>ok
13:36<andythenorth>Silicon Valley is also usable for quick goals
13:36<andythenorth>and is ‘first to win’
13:37<@Alberth>^^ those scripts make you build a good network and transport cargo
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13:42<igorsenvad>How to open .nut ? Note block?
13:43<@Alberth>notepad++ works well
13:43<samu>am I being paranoid or not?
13:43<samu>can oil rigs spawn anywhere in the map
13:43<samu>like, inland water?
13:43<samu>:(
13:43<@Alberth>I have seen them do that
13:43<samu>what ar the creation rules
13:44<@Alberth>> 1960, afaik
13:44<b_jonas>samu: I think there's a limit on how close to the map edge they have to be ... or maybe that applies only to oil refineries?
13:45<samu>I'm unsure now
13:45<samu>i'm sure that oil refineries behave like that, but not sure about oil rig
13:45<@Alberth>and on water, of course
13:46-!-shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:46<@Alberth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries#Special_industry_flags_to_define_special_behavior_.281A.29 <-- those flags exist for default industries
13:47<@Alberth>I just don't know which ones apply to the oil rig
13:48-!-Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5f764daa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:49<samu>i navigated into here: http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/src/industrytype.h
13:49<samu>Available procedures to check whether an industry may build at a given location.
13:50<@Alberth>same list :)
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13:52<samu>one thing is placing a oil rig in the scenario editor, apparently it lets me build anywhere there is water, into mainland
13:52<samu>another thing is seeing it spawn in a real game
13:52<samu>and i dont think it spawn in the interior
13:52<samu>only at border
13:53<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxjbdnins
13:54<@Alberth>you can add new restrictions to your grf
13:54<@Alberth>don't know how, though :(
13:55<samu>i just don't want to change the spawning rules
13:55<samu>keep the same rules
13:55<samu>pretty much
13:55-!-roidal [~roland@cm140-210.liwest.at] has joined #openttd
13:57<roidal>is there a way to change difficulty options during a game?
13:58<roidal>like vehicle running costs
13:59<@Alberth>if it is not greyed out, you can
14:01<samu>re-testing oil rig spawning
14:01<@Alberth>roidal: 3rd button on the main toolbar has a drop-down for selecting settings
14:01<samu>they're not spawning during the 1950-1960 period
14:01<samu>this part is correct
14:01<@Alberth>yay :)
14:02<samu>ok, so it's missing a check or maybe that 0xFF is wrong
14:02<samu>and should be clear instead?
14:03<samu>brb
14:04<samu>yeah, running two games in parallel with mucho water, I confirm that default oil rigs are only spawning near map borders
14:04<samu>and my version is letting them spawn everywhere there is water
14:04<samu>brb
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14:21<Wolf01>hi hi
14:22<roidal>Alberth: yes, but difficulty settings are grayed out
14:23<@Alberth>cannot be changed then
14:23<@Alberth>hi hi sir W
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14:30<samu>oh, just discovered nmlc.exe works with drag and drop
14:31<samu>using mouse to drag a .nml file into nmlc.exe and it creates a .grf
14:31<samu>awesome
14:32<samu>:( 'clear' vs '0xFF' - nothing different
14:33<Supercheese>Is not clear defined explicitly as 0xFF in NML constants?
14:34<samu>I don't know
14:35*Supercheese checks
14:35<@Alberth>if isinstance(tile, expression.Identifier) and tile.value == 'clear':
14:35<@Alberth> tile = expression.ConstantNumeric(0xFF)
14:35<@Alberth>looks that way
14:36<samu>oh, so 0xFF is the same as clear
14:36<samu>:(
14:36<@Alberth>or rather, 'clear' gets rewritten to 0xFF
14:36<Supercheese> if isinstance(tile, expression.Identifier) and tile.value == 'clear':
14:36<Supercheese> tile = expression.ConstantNumeric(0xFF)
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14:36<Supercheese>so, yeah
14:36<Supercheese>not quite as explicit as some NML constants, but it's there
14:36<samu>oil rigs must have had a special water type
14:37<@Alberth>that explains why nothing changed :)
14:37<samu>that tile probably can only be placed near map border
14:37<samu>i dunn
14:37<samu>o
14:38<samu>can you distinguish a water tile that is close to map border and another that is inside mainland?
14:39<samu>or maybe it's not the layout
14:39<samu>and the check
14:39<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxjbdnins
14:39<samu>this thing?
14:39<samu>how do I implement this text into the nml?
14:41-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
14:42<samu>http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/src/industrytype.h
14:43<samu>how was the industry created part also seems important
14:43<samu>4 ways to spawn a oil rig :(
14:43<@Alberth>derive your rig from the original oil rig industry, then you have the settings already
14:44<Supercheese>still on the oilrig stuff, eh?
14:44<Supercheese>and still going for tile layouts?
14:46<samu>yes, i discovered a different spawning behaviour
14:46<samu>and now i'm trying to figure it out
14:51<samu>isn't that what I've done already albert?
14:52<samu>how do I "derive"
14:53<@Alberth>you have to set an industry to use as template or something like that, iirc
14:54<@Alberth>which basically means the game copies all settings of that industry type to your new industry type
14:55<samu>all, except the layout?
14:55<samu>hmm, must investigate
14:55<@Alberth>all, as far as I know, but you then set a new layout?
14:57<samu>the layout is to replace the original, but still use all its rules
14:57<samu>creation rules, settings, properties, etc.. only the tilelayout map
14:57<samu>is edited
14:58<samu>I don't know the technical terms
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15:00<samu>Each layout have it's own placement check rules/properties?
15:01<@Alberth>don't know
15:04<samu>if it currently is not allowing me to build one oil rig adjacent to each other, then it is doing a placement check, right? Maybe the layout needs more properties on the layout
15:05<samu>lol redundancy, my head is exploding
15:05<samu>'layout settings'
15:08<samu>what exactly happens when the game spawns an industry? If I could understand this process, things would be easier
15:12<andythenorth>if you’re prepared to translate nfo -> nml, I still find it easier to read the nfo part of newgrf wiki
15:12<andythenorth>approximately (I might have the order wrong, but industry_cmd.cpp knows the order if you want to check):
15:13<andythenorth>- game randomly selects a tile for the N tile of the industry
15:13<andythenorth>- game sees if the tile meets the *industry* location check criteria
15:13<andythenorth>- game tries a random layout to see if it will physically fit the location
15:14<andythenorth>- can’t remember if the game cycles all layouts at that location, but the code will know
15:14<andythenorth>- game runs the *tile* location checks
15:14<andythenorth>(for every tile in the layout)
15:14<andythenorth>industry is built or fails
15:14<andythenorth>game will try n times to build before failing
15:14<andythenorth>if you want the canonical answer, read industry_cmd.cpp, not my summary
15:15<andythenorth>there are also some steps, like levelling land, and running the newgrf location cbs etc
15:19<samu>wow, i found the original oil rig layout static const IndustryTileTable _tile_table_oil_rig_0[] = {
15:19<samu>range differs slightly than mine
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15:20<samu>x goes from -4 to 5 and y from -5 to 6
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15:25<dreck>hi
15:25<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/IndustryDefaultProps#Industry_Layouts <- samu
15:27<samu>someone made a mistake, either me or the wiki is wrong
15:27<samu>let me draw
15:35<samu>yep, wiki layout is wrong
15:35<frosch123>what do you think is wrong?
15:35<samu>I'll show you, about to finish drawing it
15:35<samu>just dont know how to convert 0-255 to 0-FF
15:37<samu>24 in hexadecimal is 18?
15:37<frosch123>@base 10 16 24
15:37<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 18
15:37<samu>well, I'll assume those hex values are correct
15:38<frosch123>well, i assume you swapped x and y :p
15:40<samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phujr5bfx
15:40<samu>there it is
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15:40<frosch123>ah, you fell for that
15:40<frosch123>well, your mistake was to take numbers literally
15:40<frosch123>but ttd was programmed in assembly
15:41<dreck>1+1 is not literally 3? :) (sorry maybe bad joke)
15:41<frosch123>so you just work around two's compliment in randmo places
15:41<samu>ugh :(
15:41<__ln__>it's almost certainly complement, not compliment
15:41<samu>if only I knew better
15:42<@Alberth>__ln__: it is
15:43<frosch123>samu: you are lucky. assembler programmers are at least better than fortran programmers
15:44<samu>no idea what's a fortran or assembler, so, wiki is right after all, both are right
15:44<samu>?
15:45<samu>except my new draw
15:45<@Alberth>quite, writing an assembler program for assembly language is not so trivial
15:52<samu>it's the only tiletable with negative coordinates :(
15:53<samu>quite special that oil rig
15:56<frosch123>hmm, actually ottd could be wrong here
15:56<frosch123>it probably broke that magic around version 0.3 when adding bigger maps :p
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15:59<samu>i have no idea what you're talking about now
16:00<samu>which one is correct after all?
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16:10<frosch123>hmm, now i tracked it back to ottd 0.1, either ludde made a mistake, or cs and ttdp guys
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16:20<samu>so, which one do I trust now?
16:21<samu>wiki? my new draw?
16:22<samu>I have to edit upon one of those
16:22<samu>lel
16:29<b_jonas>trust nobody
16:29<samu>trying to decipher default oil rig placement in scenario editor
16:29<samu>brb
16:33<b_jonas>ah
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16:54<samu>frosch123: you there?
17:01<samu>frosch123: https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2phSxkwUVskAuW9C4o_Gd3P7ML7uTVC_5jdNl5OyY4W4ew9X22opw4lKUOGu_wW94BT1Lz6roH3xHHK95lRWaFXCcha7zRvdno5PNomL0aTc_Ydo472rLmGIehnSsu6qegDJJLTmuYV084a_N9e6ZhbQ/screenshot.png?psid=1
17:02<samu>this proves wiki is wrong
17:03<frosch123>who says ottd is right?
17:03<samu>it let me build exactly in that mold
17:04<frosch123>do you know the game "chinese whispers"?
17:04<samu>nop
17:04<frosch123>you don't know who is lying
17:05<frosch123>adding a grf to ottd is like chinese whispers
17:05<frosch123>nml source -> nml compiler -> ottd grf interpreter -> ottd code -> display
17:06<frosch123>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
17:09<samu>I'm confused with what you're trying to tell me
17:10<samu>isn't the svn the original one? the source?
17:11<@planetmaker>which may not be bug-free. Or the grf compiler produced a faulty grf. Or... :)
17:12<frosch123>clearly ottd does not what the grfspecs say
17:13<Wolf01>'night
17:13<frosch123>already ottd 0.1 did not do that
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17:13<frosch123>the grfspecs result in a sensible layout for the oil righ
17:13<frosch123>while the ottd layout is weird
17:13<frosch123>now there are two options:
17:13<frosch123>a) ottd 0.1 was already wrong
17:14<frosch123>b) cs already did it wrong and ttd was really that weird, and ttdp guys misinterpreted it for something real
17:17<samu>do you want me to install TTDLX in dosbox?
17:17<samu>I could check in there
17:17<samu>hopefully
17:18<samu>it has a scenario editor doesn't it?
17:18<frosch123>yes
17:18<samu>ok, brb
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17:24<andythenorth>bye
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17:37<samu>okay im drawing the mold in ttdx
17:38<samu>will take a while, signal placement is a bit different
17:38<samu>sign*
17:38<frosch123>nml seems to follow ottd behaviour
17:39<frosch123>though the grfspec behaviour makes a lot of sense for an assembler program on a 256x256 map
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17:48<DanMacK>@seen Pikka
17:48<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Pikka> splendide
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18:06<samu>bad news
18:06<samu>wiki is right
18:06<samu>ottd is wrong
18:07<samu>let me screenshot
18:08<samu>crap, how do i open a .pcx?
18:09<+glx>in an image viewer
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18:15<samu>i don't know how to open a .pcx
18:15<samu>https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!712&authkey=!AGkcGBUlH2VlVxY&ithint=file%2cPCX
18:15<samu>here's the file
18:19<samu>http://www.go2convert.com/converted/file/e7gcLEx1
18:22<samu>frosh quits?
18:22<samu>t.t
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18:32<samu>someone pass this link to frosch123 when he comes back? http://www.go2convert.com/converted/file/e7gcLEx1
18:33<samu>it has got the answers he was looking for
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 06 00:00:00 2015