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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-11

---Logopened Wed Feb 11 00:00:08 2015
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03:25<supermop>yo andythenorth
03:26<supermop>hows the north bit of that island doing today?
03:27*andythenorth is not in the north
03:28<supermop>maybe i am remembering your old forum location of 'spiritual home of TT' which i always assumed was Glasgow
03:32<andythenorth>ha ha
03:32<andythenorth>chipping sodbury
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04:12<supermop>hi planetmaker
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04:28<Namekk>oh good
04:28<Namekk>Can you help me with something?:d
04:29-!-kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK
04:29<Namekk>Can someone tell me how to play open TTD with oponent computer
04:32<@peter1138>You need to download an AI with the in-game content downloader.
04:33<Namekk>What is AI and where i can download
04:34<@peter1138>AI is Artificial Intelligence
04:34<@peter1138>And... you download it in game.
04:37<Namekk>Content downloading from there i can download the AI?
04:38<V453000>just try it :)
04:43<Namekk>i heave many AI files to download what is the best one?
04:44<@planetmaker>what's your metric for a 'good AI'?
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04:58<Namekk>i download Nocab
04:58<Namekk>thnx for help
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06:41<V453000>WTF mess is at the bridge sprites ._.
06:41<V453000>some are recoloured, some stuff is re-used in other places
06:41<V453000>good stuff
06:44<@planetmaker>yep, very lovely
06:44<V453000>just holy shit :D
06:45<V453000>all bridge heads have 2 kinds per track/road?
06:45<V453000>wooden/normal ?
07:02<V453000>looks what way
07:07<V453000>right I think I understand how it works already
07:07<V453000>quite a wtf
07:12<V453000>and the 3-4 tile concrete bridge is just recoloured middle-part of suspension bridges XD
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07:18<supermop>the plain 48kmh one?
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07:21<V453000>just like
07:28<V453000>well the good news is that I probably can make very different bridges for every type of thing ... road / rail / monorail / maglev
07:28<V453000>which is grate
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07:31<V453000>actually not
07:31<V453000>nvm :D
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07:34<@planetmaker>@calc 74*365*21/12
07:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 47267.5
07:35<V453000>ticks for year? :P
07:35<V453000>times something :D
07:35<@planetmaker>yeah :P
07:36<@planetmaker> <-- I was wondering whether there was a data type reason for choosing 21 months :P
07:36<@planetmaker>@calc 74*365*2
07:36<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 54020
07:37<@planetmaker>@commit 26582
07:37<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Commit by rubidium :: r26582 /trunk/src (station_base.h station_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-11 18:35:34 UTC)
07:37<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: -Feature-ish: quickly decay cargo after about 21 months of not having picked any of the cargo, and prevent houses and industries providing more cargo
07:38<V453000>that is handy actually
07:38<V453000>as some dudes say there
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07:49<supermop>looks good to me
07:49<supermop>goodnight all up there
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 256*185
07:50<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 47360
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: close enough?
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>185 ticks is the usual cargo aging (and rating adjustment, etc.) step
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08:31<V453000>172 bridge sprites?
08:32<V453000>without gui
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08:44<@planetmaker>sounds reasonable. Though the 44 gui sprites don't hurt :)
08:44<@planetmaker>V453000, going for a 1:1 sprite replacement, yes? (Or planning some custom bridge re-definitions, going into nfo territory :P)?
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08:46<DanMacK>Hey all
08:47<raincomplex>is this channel usually this active?
08:48<@planetmaker>this is quite normal level, yes
08:48<raincomplex>i had no idea this game had such an active community
08:48<raincomplex>it's really cool
08:48<DanMacK>yeah this ain't the half of it... lol
08:48<@planetmaker>it's the usual crowd hanging around here ;)
08:48<@planetmaker>especially in EU evening
08:49<DanMacK>Some of us have been developing for the game for more than a decade
08:49<@planetmaker>he, yeah... I'm always astonished to find how long I'm around here already
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08:50<@planetmaker>but then, it only is alive as it is due to new people joining in all the time
08:51*LordAro feels obligated to be active
08:51<@planetmaker>good so!
08:51*DanMacK is active when he feels like it
08:51<LordAro>how's everyone today?
08:52<@planetmaker>drowning in burocracy today morning. hopefully better afternoon
08:53<V453000>planetmaker: is 1:1 the ONLY option for a base set, or are there other options?
08:53*LordAro is (hopefully) signing contract for job for the next year
08:53<V453000>I dont have huge problems with 1:1 and it easily tells me what needs to be done
08:53<V453000>perhaps some alternative stuff I can do later Eventually
08:54<V453000>but alternative stuff kind of neglects the main thing :) I would like to keep it simple and make the basic thing nice enough already, even though the "code" is limited in some parts
08:54<@planetmaker>V453000, for a base set there 1:1 is the only option
08:54<@planetmaker>(and the newgrf bridge specs aren't really spectacular... so not sure it's actually worth the trouble currently)
08:55<V453000>that is all I need to know :)
08:55<V453000>but yeah, 1:1 is fine
08:56<@planetmaker>everything 1:1 is what basesets do. You only have a choice of the looks. Not of how the sprites compose for them
08:56<V453000>sure, I understand that, I just asked since you suggested a different method :P
08:56<@planetmaker>the only notable exception is about a few things which go into the extra grf of the base set. Mainly rivers and canals
08:56<V453000>just replacing things is most convenient for me too, just replacing sprites is easy code
08:56<@planetmaker>yeah, quite :)
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08:57<@planetmaker>did I suggest a different method? I must have been out of my mind :)
08:57<V453000>eh not exactly, but you mentioned hellish nfo :P
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08:58<V453000>mentioning nfo is enough of a crime to consider it a suggestion already!
08:58<@planetmaker>nml doesn't know grfspecs for bridges yet
08:58<V453000>no problemo
08:58<@planetmaker>yup. with replacement it's simplissimo
08:59<V453000>... btw I do intend to do GUI at some point, but probably later :)
09:00<V453000>I want to handle that with some more care, when I have most of the things to go there
09:01<@planetmaker>V453000, especially, GUI also needs 4 sizes. But I thought it easiest to create the GUI sprites along with bridges... as they contain images of the bridge shown
09:02<@planetmaker>also... easy sizes: 20x20px as base or or 20x40 or 20x120 for the rectangular ones
09:05<V453000>yeah sure, everything easiest to provide with -thingrelated- :P
09:05<V453000>... why 4 sizes for gui?
09:05<V453000>... I just want to make gui as a whole later on, after I have the icons for everything I need :)
09:06<V453000>or at least for most of the things :)
09:06*DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
09:08<@planetmaker>hm, 3 sizes :)
09:08<@planetmaker>1x, 2x and 4x :)
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09:13<V453000>well then I will just make them in the same postproduction thingy I do everything else in :) auto generation ftw
09:16<@planetmaker>we have GUI zoom and want to properly support that, don't we? :D
09:16<@planetmaker>not that 4x GUI zoom is in any way sane to use IMHO
09:16<@planetmaker>imho it would need 1.5x zoom instead. But meh...
09:16<V453000>I cant say I am very amazed by that feature but sure, no problem for me to create those automatically
09:17<V453000>ALSO, I just realized that creating bridge GUI is usually a side-view, soooo need to render a bridge that way XD
09:17<V453000>--- which means I will probably make them already --- :P
09:18<V453000>ok so 8 extra basic gui sprites
09:18<V453000>7 bridge types + 1 arrow
09:19<V453000> arrow/cursor/yeti
09:19<V453000>70 sprites for suspension + concrete bridges ...
09:19<V453000>that is a lot.
09:22<@planetmaker>bridges need an aweful lot of composition when drawn on screen: pylons + base including backside + vehicle + front side
09:22<@planetmaker>and then the different bridge tiles along the length all look different :)
09:30<V453000>yeah that is all counted
09:33<V453000>I just need to set up some sane environment for the model layout :D but the bridges are so fucking inconsistent that it isnt exactly easy
09:35<V453000>btw the suspension bridge sprites seem to be very doubled
09:35<V453000>e.g. 2470 and 2472
09:35<V453000>what is the difference between them?
09:36<V453000>one is at the end and one at the start of a bridge I see
09:36<V453000>lets see how they are in original, in ogfx they are 100% identical
09:37<V453000>original has it different :>
09:38<V453000>the extra duplicates are cases for the end of bridge
09:38<V453000>that is nice.
09:39<@planetmaker>ok, so I can stop trying to find out :P
09:39<V453000>yeah :D ogfx wont show it
09:39<V453000>I wonder if zeph fixed that in zbase
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09:39<V453000>he did :)
09:40<V453000>so it is only ogfx
09:40<@planetmaker>V453000, it's just a matter of how you want the bridge to look. But yeah :)
09:40<V453000>yes. :) but the ends are quite important
09:40<@planetmaker>they are
09:41<V453000>especially since this means i can make this a lot more than just the small suspension-basement detail
09:41<V453000>think of the possibilitieS! :D
09:41*andythenorth puzzled still about railtypes
09:41<V453000>what puzzles you andy
09:41<LordAro>andythenorth: needs more roadtypes
09:41<andythenorth>got a case of an engine that could be built for either narrow gauge or standard gauge
09:41<andythenorth>but I have no idea if that’s possible
09:42<andythenorth>without introducing some wtf track type, and spamming the menu
09:42<V453000>hm there are some details that ofx also does for some kinds
09:42<andythenorth>currently I have to put the engine in twice, with different track types set
09:42<andythenorth>two IDs, etc
09:42<V453000>hm dont know about that :)
09:42<andythenorth>railtypes are completely mystery to me
09:42<V453000>I actually do
09:43<samu>I have a problem, need help solving -> "These vehicle models aren't sorted in the expected order in the purchase lists."
09:43<V453000>you sould be able to buy the vehicle from any compatible depot
09:43<andythenorth>samu: there’s a specific item block in nml for handling purchase sort order
09:43<andythenorth>should be findable in the wiki
09:43<andythenorth>common question :)
09:43<samu>I discovered a Sort ... yes that
09:43<samu>but how do I sort a mix?
09:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that depends on the railtypes alone: if the railtypes are deemed compatible and the vehicle powered on both: then it can be built i nthe depot of the other track type
09:45<@planetmaker>but that hardly sounds to be the case for standard and narrow gauge. Doesn't make sense. Thus you need to define the vehicle twice
09:45<andythenorth>same answer as last time :)
09:45<samu>problem is that it only sorts the vehicles I edited in relation to each other, and disregards the default untouched vehicle models
09:45<andythenorth>no idea what I thought would have changed
09:45<V453000>oh yeah I just realized I only do it with track type -> universal rail
09:46<andythenorth>V453000: so why would anybody build anything else instead of universal rail?
09:46<samu>edited vehiclews show up at the top of the list
09:46<andythenorth>is it speed limited or something?
09:46<V453000>visual look :)
09:46<samu>not what I intended
09:46<samu>wait, let me explain with a screenshot
09:46<V453000>also, for example my wetrail ships reduce their stats on any other track than wetrail
09:47<V453000>other vehicles dont care, they use universal tracks to full extent
09:47<V453000>visual variety is nice
09:47<V453000>and well, most people hate maglev so they build PURR instead
09:47<V453000>well people build PURR instead of all track types but yeah :P
09:47<andythenorth>so a ‘mixed’ railtype would solve this?
09:47<andythenorth>but then the buy menu is full of crap
09:47<andythenorth>(railtype menu)
09:48<V453000>yes everything is in the purchase menu of universal rail type
09:48<andythenorth>and I have no intention of drawing track
09:48<andythenorth>can I disable a railtype?
09:48<V453000>drawing track is easy
09:48<V453000>you can even take PURR sprites as templates
09:48<V453000>gets done quick
09:49<andythenorth>it has craploads of sprites
09:49<V453000>I dont think I define ALL sprites though - not tunnels, and bridge reserved track overlays
09:49<V453000>it isnt that many really
09:49<andythenorth>also then I have to redraw the other sprites in Termite, because they’re a bit not-good
09:50<V453000>render it? :P
09:50<andythenorth>won’t look good
09:50<V453000>can :)
09:50*andythenorth puzzled how metros work in Iron Horse
09:50<andythenorth>maybe they don’t
09:51<V453000>metros are just a wtf hack
09:51<samu>here it is ->
09:51<samu>the edited engine is dash
09:51<samu>it jumped to the top of the list
09:52<samu>the nml ->
09:52*andythenorth broke openttd
09:52<andythenorth>so can’t check metros
09:54<samu>how do I retain the original listing order?
09:55<@planetmaker>you have to specify it
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>samu: use the "sort_order" property
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>samu: "sort_order" takes another vehicle-id that this vehicle will be put in front of
09:57<V453000>ok XD I am really great at meth
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>so if the vehicle you override has the ID 16 and is normally put infront of 17, then put "sort_order: 17"
09:57<V453000>it is 234 bridge sprites, plus 8 gui. :) final number
09:57<samu>ah sort order
09:58<V453000>64 bridge heads ._.
09:58<samu>i was looking at Sort block instead
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>that is better for full vehicle sets
09:59<samu>ok, ty, will fix this
10:00<@planetmaker>"great at meth" sounds like you want a police visit at your home :P
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, that would explain why nowadays most of the meth in germany comes from czechia. :p
10:01<andythenorth>eh? So how come IH metros appear in a game without metro track?
10:01<andythenorth>they are buildable in electric depots
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because you set a fallback railtype in the railtype translation table?
10:02<andythenorth>I have absolutely no understanding of railtypes
10:02<andythenorth>let’s start from the position that everything I have understood previously is wrong
10:03<andythenorth>and stop there
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to understand it. just do it correctly :p
10:04<andythenorth>right now, it’s better to not do it
10:04<andythenorth>I have no idea what correct means here
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: as for your "either normal or narrow gauge" vehicle: you have to duplicate it. there is no other (sane) solution
10:04<andythenorth>ok that’s a good answer thanks
10:05<andythenorth>what are the insane solutions?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>we don't discuss those.
10:05<andythenorth>I tend to learn by avoiding mistakes
10:06<andythenorth>on the plus side, my crappy ports manager tool has managed to provide a viable version of freetype
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>the dual-gauge railtype idea could work, but that would imply that the vehicle has both sets of wheels under it at all time, or can easily be refitted (some wagons do that)
10:06<andythenorth>so now ottd compiles on OS X for me without omitting freetype
10:07<andythenorth>because the vehicle would seamlessly transition between types?
10:07<andythenorth>ok let’s not do that
10:07<andythenorth>it’s not a talgo
10:07<andythenorth>two IDs in that case
10:08*andythenorth makes friends with deepcopy()
10:08<andythenorth>OS X compile, for me at least, now needs hardly any bizarre configure flags
10:08*Eddi|zuHause gets a shuddery feeling in his neck
10:09<andythenorth>./configure LDFLAGS="-stdlib=libstdc++"
10:09<andythenorth>eh not bad
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10:29<V453000>._. My OpenTTD 3D folder has 35GB in total
10:30<V453000>models and textures for YETI/NUTS/RAWR/CATS/DOOM
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10:46<^Spike^>we should really let V pay per MB used on devzone...
10:46<^Spike^>oh wait wrong channel... ;)
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10:47<Eddi|zuHause>but hell will freeze over if MB is on devzone :p
10:49<^Spike^>.... :)
10:59<samu>Unknown property name: sort_order
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11:00<samu>Is it Item ... { ... properties {... sort_order: here ?
11:00<samu>where does it belong?
11:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: which python 3 are you running?
11:05*andythenorth is upgrading, and has options
11:06<andythenorth>don’t want to be too bleeding edge
11:06<samu>that sort block doesn't work as expected
11:07<samu>im editing one train engine per tileset
11:07<samu>can only sort it against itself? pointless
11:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, my debian has 3.2.3; jenkins on devzone has the same. At home I probably have python 3.4.x
11:07<@planetmaker>not sure
11:08<andythenorth>alberth has 3.4
11:08<andythenorth>I’ll stick there
11:08<andythenorth>not knowing anything about 3.5
11:09-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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11:11<juzza1>samu: how did you expect it to work?
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you really should learn how to read syntax diagrams and stuff
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>samu: then this question would be trivial to answer.
11:14*andythenorth should learn that too
11:16<@planetmaker>samu, it's a separate block. all on its own. outside any vehicle context
11:16<@Alberth>hi hi
11:16<samu>I'm confused
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: we already established that the sort block is not the right tool here.
11:18<@planetmaker>hi hi albert
11:18<samu>i changed a property for dash, set his model life to 99
11:18<@Alberth>Greeting: hi [ hi [ <nickname> ] ]
11:19<samu>by doing this, the purchase list jumped the dash to the top of the list, it didn't retain it's original order
11:19<andythenorth>lo Alberth
11:19<samu>how do i keep the original order
11:19<@Alberth>hi andy, that greeting doesn't fit in my syntax diagram :)
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>samu: just go back and read carefully what was already written.
11:20<@planetmaker>samu, by using the sort block. For *all* engines. One sort block to rule them all
11:20<@planetmaker>and yes. Every word in the documentation matters
11:21<@planetmaker>well. most
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11:21<samu>i don't even know their names
11:21<samu>how can i sort those vehicles I didn't touch
11:22<@planetmaker>use their IDs?
11:22<samu>ok, gonna try
11:22<@planetmaker>though you only will be able to sort those which you touch
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: really i don't know why you do this.
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11:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, do what?
11:23<andythenorth>eh is python 3.4 a shitload faster than 3.3?
11:23<andythenorth>FIRS compile time seems a bit reduced
11:23<@Alberth>oh noes, quickly go back to 3.3 :)
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>"i want to eat soup with a spoon, which way around do i hold the spoon?" - "use a fork"
11:24<@Alberth>tbh I don't know, but yeah, python3 is known to have speed problems, so people are likely working on that
11:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth, from what I remember, every python >= python3.2.3 should be fine. Any earlier will not work with nmlc
11:27<andythenorth>Alberth: so src/ works for you under 3.4? o_O
11:27<@Alberth>it did yesterday, or should I delete some files first?
11:28<andythenorth>try a make clean, but should not be significant tbh
11:28<andythenorth>same NameError for me
11:29<samu>sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, etc...]);
11:29<samu>like that?
11:29<andythenorth>oh it has a shebang
11:29<andythenorth>is that shebang a problem?
11:29<samu>up to 115?
11:31<@Alberth> /usr/bin/env should be fine, python is python2 for you?
11:31<andythenorth>removing shebang makes no difference anyway
11:32<@Alberth>make it "python2" ?
11:32<@Alberth>or some specific python2 version
11:32<andythenorth>works under python 2.6.8
11:32<andythenorth>but then that’s not a python 3 conversion :D
11:33<@Alberth>well, almost :)
11:33<andythenorth>only 0.3.2 away
11:33<andythenorth>less than 1
11:33<andythenorth>what is lambda anyway :P
11:33<andythenorth>some way to map a function across an iterable?
11:34<samu>sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, turner_turbo_diesel, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98
11:34<samu>doesn't fit
11:34<samu>ends in 115
11:34<andythenorth>Alberth: hg up snakebite
11:34<samu>will that work?
11:34<@Alberth>use a pastebin samu
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11:36<samu>oh, i forgot the aircraft
11:39<andythenorth>hmm lambda did change 2 to 3
11:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: hg up snakebite ; make clean; make -j1 works are equivalent
11:40<@planetmaker>samu, you could have tried 10 times now :)
11:40<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks, new error now, same issue I think, fixing
11:42<andythenorth>make will work because it calls my scripts under 2.6 or 2.7
11:43<andythenorth>new issue :)
11:43<andythenorth>unorderable types
11:43<andythenorth>class instances
11:43<@Alberth>yep, they fixed that
11:44<andythenorth>that function I wrote is hideous
11:44<@Alberth>implement __lt__(self, other) and __eq__(self, other), former should return True iff self < other, latter should return True iff self == other
11:45<@Alberth>(and False otherwise :p )
11:46<andythenorth>I can’t understand what data structure my code builds
11:46<andythenorth>but it’s probably horrible
11:49<@Alberth> saving a few lines
11:50<andythenorth>I can’t discern why I get a list of industries, then walk over it appending it to a new list
11:50<andythenorth>result is the lists per economy here
11:50<@Alberth>it works, and it was late :)
11:50<andythenorth>I think I am doing it ass-backwards
11:52<@Alberth>for each cargo, for each economy, get sorted source and target industries?
11:53<@Alberth>what's the sorting criterium for industries?
11:53<@Alberth>oh, perhaps?
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11:58<samu>it works
11:58<samu>so i can use numbers after all
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>i still think not using the sort block is better
12:01<samu>is there another way to do it?
12:02<@Alberth>yes, don't try to force the user into your ideas
12:03<samu>what does that mean?
12:03<@Alberth>but letting go of ideas is hard to do
12:05<@Alberth>systems normally have sane behavior. If you have to fight a system, it may be less wise what you want than you think
12:06*andythenorth will try and rewrite this docs rendering later
12:06<andythenorth>some of it looks crappy
12:07<samu>i have no idea if you're talking to me Alberth
12:07<@Alberth>samu: except for the "k", I was
12:09<samu>did I break the system or, I made a work around the system? erm? hmm
12:09<samu>hard to understand what you say
12:10<andythenorth>peter1138: found some random OS X DVDs, 10.5 and a 10.6 upgrade (newest that mac will take). Want them in the post
12:10<andythenorth>free to good home, no warranty :P
12:10<@Alberth>samu: you added a "sort" to force the system into sorting as you see, rather than let the system decide how to handle the new engines
12:11<@Alberth>and the sorting has nothing to do with lengthening model life
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12:13<samu>ah, I see
12:13-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:13<samu>yes, i wanted to retain the same order it had before, but if this is the only way to do it
12:13<samu>then... so be it
12:14<@Alberth>it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind
12:14<andythenorth>hrm, so just 2 functions to fix, and FIRS should work with python 3
12:14<andythenorth>Alberth the solution is to have a lot of ideas
12:14<andythenorth>mostly bad ones
12:14<andythenorth>then you get more used to killing them
12:14<andythenorth>then you’re prepared to kill even the good ones
12:15<@Alberth>Deriving from "(object)" isn't needed with Python3 either
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12:17<samu>if there's another way to do the same, please tell me
12:18<andythenorth>I might try 2to3 again later
12:18<andythenorth>once I have a stable point
12:18<@Alberth>samu: you're not reading what I say, but that's ok
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12:18<samu>I do, but maybe I just don't understand the whole thing
12:19<@Alberth>(18:14:15) Alberth: it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind <-- just this line
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12:32<andythenorth>huh, FIRS makefile hates me :)
12:33<andythenorth>removed PYTHONPATH2 and PYTHON2 vars
12:33<andythenorth>which are unused according to grep
12:33<andythenorth>I should learn to grep better
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12:34<NGC3982>So, is AI in dedicated multiplayer servers a good idea?
12:35<samu>yes, but it has to be a very slow AI, else it's too intrusive
12:35<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes please
12:36<samu>some of them lag when thinking :(
12:36<andythenorth>peter1138: I’ve got your address, NFI if they’ll work :)
12:36<samu>some others lag because they build too many vehicles
12:36<@peter1138>ok, thank you
12:37<andythenorth>so why does the FIRS makefile depend on python 2?
12:37<andythenorth>REPO_DAYS_SINCE_2000 ?= $(shell $(PYTHON2) -c "from datetime import date; print (date(`echo "$(REPO_DATE)" | sed s/-/,/g | sed s/,0/,/g`)-date(2000,1,1)).days")
12:38<NGC3982>samu: I see.
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12:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, hg also depends on python2. So it's a no-op
12:41<@planetmaker>it's pointless to determine version in hg's absence
12:42<samu>my 2nd grf
12:42<samu>lel, i bet no one will use them
12:44<andythenorth>planetmaker: thanks
12:45<andythenorth>hg not ported to python 3 yet?
12:45*andythenorth looks
12:45<@planetmaker>there are issues with handling byte streams in py3
12:45<@planetmaker>from what my memory serves me
12:45<andythenorth>“Python 3.x has proven notoriously difficult to support, due to our pervasive dependence on a byte-based encoding strategy and string manipulation.”
12:46<andythenorth>no serious plan to move
12:46<@planetmaker>no urgency. Though there is more than nothing. But nothing which is backward compatible
12:46<@planetmaker>and regressions in a VCS... that's a no-go 1st class :)
12:46<andythenorth>well, I’ll leave the python 2 thing in place
12:55<samu>i created a game with cargo dist + AIs + my newest grf, join me ->
12:56<samu>or not
12:56<@Alberth>there are very few players in #openttd :)
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12:58<samu>is it joinable at least?
12:58<@planetmaker>if it's in the server list there: yes
12:59<samu>what about the newgrf requirement
12:59<@Alberth>I can't join, don't have 1.5.0 beta-1
12:59<@Alberth>if it's on bananas, the game can automatically download it for the player
13:00<samu>hmm, okay
13:00<samu>those downloads kinda ruin it
13:00<samu>but ok
13:01<@Alberth>it's better than having to look through the forum and find all the newgrfs that a server uses
13:02<samu>AI's dont require downloads
13:02<samu>but newgrfs do
13:02<@planetmaker>yes, but so...?
13:02<@planetmaker>if I can download it right from the server join lobby, I don't see an obstacle there
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13:04<samu>oh i got a client
13:06<samu>ah crap i didn't start the AIs on time
13:06<samu>they took one of the AI slots
13:07<samu>why can't the game reserve slots for AIs
13:07<samu>prevent any player creating a company in those slots?
13:09<@Alberth>why is that a problem at all?
13:09<samu>for multiplayer it is
13:09<samu>but it's fine for singleplayer
13:10<@planetmaker>samu, there are no 'player slots' or 'ai slots'. There's only companies
13:14<samu>well, then I got a slightly different approach for the problem
13:15<samu>starting a multiplayer game will immediately start all AIs
13:15<samu>ignores the waiting
13:16<@Alberth>why is it a problem to have an AI company elsewhere in the company list?
13:17<samu>they won't spawn I believe
13:17<samu>I set 3 AIs
13:18<samu>but I believe they only spawn in the 3 next companies created after mine, so, company 2, 3 and 4
13:18<samu>unless things have changed
13:19<@Alberth>it hasn't changed, it has always worked, afaik
13:19<samu>if someone creates company 2 before the AI, there will be only 2 AIs
13:19<samu>I'm gonna wait and see what happens in this game
13:20<@Alberth>hmm, the problem is you don't set 3 AIs, you set 3 players
13:20<@Alberth>and a player can also be a human kplayer
13:23<raincomplex>does non-stop prevent maintenance?
13:23<raincomplex>only assigning an explicit service order?
13:23<@Alberth>it means it doesn't stop at intermediate stations
13:24<@Alberth>or disabling breakdowns, and enabling no service if no breakdowns
13:24<raincomplex>i'm having trouble hiding depots
13:25<raincomplex>could it be that they're just not far enough from the mainline?
13:25<raincomplex>it's on the exit-only side of a station
13:25<raincomplex>and some trains are going into the station to get to the depot
13:25<raincomplex>who shouldn't be
13:26<raincomplex>and because the exit isn't all-directions, they then get lost...
13:26<@Alberth>yep :)
13:26<samu>ah alberth, this is what happened
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13:26<samu>it pushed one slot below 4
13:27<@Alberth>raincomplex: I build all junctions such that a train can go in any direction it wants
13:27<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:27<Wolf01>hi hi
13:27<samu>but there's a problem
13:27<@Alberth>samu: type start_ai in the console
13:27<samu>slot 5 is set to Random AI, I didn't configure it at all
13:27<samu>and slot 2 is now occupied by a human player
13:28<samu>it was supposed to spawn Trans
13:28<samu>Trans is now gone
13:29<Wolf01>uhm, I might be a lot slow typing for some time, just changed the keyboard
13:29<+glx>start the ai and password protect the company before anybody joins
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13:30<samu>i mean, gone in the sense, it won't spawn
13:31<samu>because a player created a company first before the AI
13:31<+glx>you can spawn it manually elsewhere
13:31<samu>yes, manually :(
13:31<samu>wish it could be automated
13:32<+glx>use a script to do it on server start
13:33<raincomplex>i don't suppose anyone knows offhand how far away a train will look for a depot for automatic maintenance
13:33<+glx>not too far
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13:33<+glx>less that 30 tiles I think
13:34<raincomplex>i may have to just bite the bullet and make this junction go both ways
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's a setting
13:35<raincomplex>of all the solutions i've considered i think that's probably the most sane haha
13:35<raincomplex>oh neat
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>possibly a console-only setting
13:35<raincomplex>yeah i don't see it in the adv settings dialog
13:36<+glx>pf settings are not in the window usually :)
13:36<@Alberth>there are a zillion path finder settings :)
13:37<raincomplex>rail lookahead max signals?
13:37<raincomplex>or is it separate
13:37<raincomplex>max go to depot penalty
13:37<raincomplex>a combination of the two?
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds more like it
13:38<raincomplex>if my depots are over 10 signals away, will trains still see them if the penalty isn't above max goto depot
13:38<@Alberth>a signal is a penalty, how much is probably also configurable
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>there is a reason why these settings are hidden in the console. you should not change them if you're not absolutely sure what they do
13:38<raincomplex>haha, no i'm not going to change them
13:39<raincomplex>i'm just wondering about using them to my advantage
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>the signal lookahead has nothing to do with it, it basically says "ignore other trains beyond this point, just look at the raw tracks"
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>because chances are, the trains won't be there by the time you get there
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>imho, depot search should be changed so that it starts a new pathfinder run from the depot to the real destination, and then consider the difference to the direct route
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>this way, trains are not going to get lost as easily
13:44<raincomplex>is this on an old pathfinder?
13:44<raincomplex>the bit about depot hiding
13:45<raincomplex>because i'm doing that and my depots are still visible
13:47<V453000>it is very current :)
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause>raincomplex: that setup requires 90° turns to be disabled
13:49<raincomplex>yeah i've got them off
13:49<raincomplex>i'm getting a screenshot
13:51<raincomplex>so occasionally trains from the top station go to the problem depot
13:51<samu>did you remove the quantum effect for road vehicles?
13:51<samu>that option
13:51<samu>is gone :(
13:51<raincomplex>i believe it only happens if there's a space in problem depot's station
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>samu: the setting is gone, because it didn't actually affect the quantum effect anyway.
13:52<samu>it didn't?
13:52<samu>I really liked it :(
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>it was always enabled
13:53<samu>I like to disable it, that is
13:53<@planetmaker>no, you don't want that
13:53<@planetmaker>it'll leave you with unsolvable traffic jams
13:54<@planetmaker>by not being active
13:54<samu>it actually sorts it out
13:54<samu>I don't get it
13:54<@planetmaker>thus you want to have it active.
13:55<samu>if it's active, the trucks will wait for the one that is loading to depart, jamming every other truck behind that doesn't happen to head to that station
13:55<samu>I prefer when they're always moving
13:56<samu>what is the other case?
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>samu: that's not what the "quantum effect" is anyway.
13:58<samu>what was the option that changed this behaviour?
13:58<samu>I forget their names
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>pf.roadveh_queue on the console
14:00<samu>it would only work on loading bays
14:00<samu>the other drive-through stations aren't affected by this setting
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it's still in the GUI
14:00<samu>it's not, :(
14:01<samu>bring it back
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>why would you need it in the gui, if you run a dedicated server?
14:03<samu>i'm playing in the server
14:03<samu>client-server or so
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>so it's not a dedicated server? (you made it sound like that earlier)
14:04<samu>i went to multiplayer start new server, entered a name and that was it
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>right. that's not a dedicated server.
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if that is not enough information for you to change the setting, i cannot help you.
14:08<samu>it's fine, but why hide some settings from the gui
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>because some people think there are too many settings
14:10<samu>basic, advanced, expert
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14:10<samu>new category, insane
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>hiding from gui happens mainly for 2 reasons: 1) the setting is really dangerous, and should only be changed by people with a deep understanding of the game mechanics involved, or b) the setting is so rarely changed that it only wastes space
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14:13<Eddi|zuHause>in 1) are for example most of the pathfinder tweaks, or the developer options.
14:15<samu>insane category could have that warning in a big red window
14:15<samu>hmm :)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>warnings in big red windows happen to be completely ineffective.
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14:22<samu>I know, hide this insane preset from default installations, but let us see it if we set it to be displayed via console.
14:23<samu>setting I_want_to_see_the_insane_preset = on
14:25<samu>like a cheat code
14:31<samu>service helicopters at helipads is a bad setting when combined with never service if breakdowns are disabled
14:32<samu>when trying to replace an old model to a new model, the heli will never head to the hangar
14:32<samu>or, will almost never
14:32<andythenorth>hmm can’t use + operator on two python sets
14:32<andythenorth>makes sense I guess
14:33<samu>or even when trying to renew an aged model
14:34<samu>i disable the 2nd option
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14:37<andythenorth>Alberth: new, old. Less appalling? :)
14:38<andythenorth>eh it’s lost a bit of sorting I guess
14:40<@Alberth>industry_find_industries_active_in_economy_for_cargo make 'result' a set in the first place, instead of converting at the end?
14:41<andythenorth>never thought of doing that :)
14:41<andythenorth>can’t append to a set, must be some add method or such
14:42<@Alberth>I guess you want to sort accepted_by and produced_by ?
14:43<andythenorth>doing it
14:43<andythenorth>worryingly, I think I just understood key=
14:43<@Alberth>perhaps convert them to list before the condition
14:43<andythenorth>it takes a function as the arg :o
14:43<@Alberth>:O you're becoming expert :)
14:43<andythenorth>presumably that all goes wrong if the function number of args > 1
14:43<@Alberth>yes, it takes a function that is called while sorting
14:44<@Alberth>it is assumed to return a field from the elements you give to sort
14:44<@Alberth>ie the field you sort on
14:44<andythenorth>lucky that it does eh
14:45<andythenorth>just one function left to convert hopefully
14:46<@Alberth>it's always amazing how few lines you need in Python :)
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14:46<@Alberth>looking nice imho
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i usually put a lambda into key (or cmp)
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>cmp, if it's a little more complicated
14:56<andythenorth>python 3 seems angry about the existing lambdas
14:56<andythenorth>possibly the behaviour changed and they need migrated
14:58<andythenorth>anyway, barring bugs, FIRS is now python 3
14:58<andythenorth>maybe I should run 2to3 over it
15:00<samu>competition for a titlegame
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i have no experience with python3
15:01*andythenorth has 24 hours
15:01<samu>what do we win?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>samu: the satisfaction of fame and glory for a year
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>samu: really, the same as making a NewGRF, or a screenshot thread, or any other kind of contribution to the community
15:03<andythenorth>now I need to convert Squid, Road Hog, and Iron Horse
15:03<samu>i'm gonna submit tyland :)
15:03<andythenorth>I should write a code generator for all newgrfs
15:03<andythenorth>like a framework
15:03<andythenorth>highly configurable
15:04<samu>toyland submissions won't stand a chance, I bet
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>we had at least one in the past, it quickly fell out of the vote :p
15:05<Zuu>I once submitted a game with islands that made up the version number. 1.1 I think it was.
15:05<Zuu>I don't remember if it also was toyland or just wierd in that way. :-p
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>at the latest point, when people see the screenshot of toyland with the original base set.
15:07<Zuu>Given more heightlimits, a screen that is a large hill slope may be interesting to really convice players that there are more than 16 levels now.
15:07<Zuu>Or an ocean with only small islands. Hard to combine with more hegiht limits though. :-)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see long slopes working well on a relatively small title screen
15:08<samu>can the background title follow a vehicle?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>although that should be possible to implement
15:09<samu>I would put it following a ship, going to different places to "show" stuff
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle it would be following would always be hidden by the menu
15:10<samu>move the menu around
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>nobody does that...
15:11<samu>oh, :(
15:11-!-itsatacoshop247 [] has joined #openttd
15:11<Zuu>Still, even if you don't see the ship, you will get a moving tile screen.
15:11-!-zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, once upon a time there was a suggestion that the title screen could have signs, and jump to the location of a different sign every X seconds
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that was ever implemented
15:12<andythenorth>sounds awful :)
15:13<andythenorth>already I have enough with the crossing bells
15:13<andythenorth>I often have the title screen around for a long time when developing newgrfs
15:13<andythenorth>for reasons
15:13<Zuu>andythenorth: So you suggest that 'move screen' should be combined with a sound effect? :-)
15:14<andythenorth>eh why not
15:14<andythenorth>maybe boat horns
15:14<andythenorth>I think I set a config thing once to suppress the bells, or do I misremember?
15:14<Zuu>May have been a TTDP feature.
15:15<raincomplex>is there a demo mode, like following random vehicles for certain amounts of time?
15:15<raincomplex>i'm guessing no
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there might have been a NewGRF
15:15<Zuu>not until you make it :-)
15:15<andythenorth>never seen ttdp
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but NewGRFs cannot work on the main title anymore
15:20<andythenorth>urgh, I broke grfcodec
15:20<andythenorth>that will teach me to upgrade ports
15:21<andythenorth>make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng15/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop.
15:21<andythenorth>my libpng got upgraded today
15:22<@Alberth>make reconfigure ?
15:22<@Alberth>or rerun ./configure or os
15:22<andythenorth>no ./configure
15:22<@Alberth>oh, just an executable?
15:23*andythenorth wonders if there’s something src
15:24<@Alberth>devzone projects/grcodec
15:24<andythenorth>I have that checked out
15:24<andythenorth>wondering if I need a Makefile.local or something
15:25<andythenorth>never upgrade ports :(
15:25<@planetmaker>make reconfigure; make
15:25<@planetmaker>that should usually work
15:25<andythenorth>no target for reconfigure
15:25<@Alberth>libpng-config according to the make file, eg libpng-config --libs
15:26<@planetmaker>not after make clean. Then ./configure; make
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15:26<@planetmaker>with whatever flags you use(d)
15:26<andythenorth>there is no ./configure
15:26<@planetmaker>eh. *what* do you try to build?
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15:27<Eddi|zuHause>"never update" is not a solution
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he said grfcodec
15:27<andythenorth>I trade working freetype against non-compiling grfcodec
15:27<andythenorth>one step forward, one step backward
15:27<andythenorth>I now have libpng @1.6.16 (graphics)
15:28<andythenorth>libpng15 is expected
15:28<@planetmaker>did you clean?
15:28<andythenorth>maybe I can edit a .o file
15:28<@planetmaker>make clean; make
15:28<andythenorth>yeah, that kills the .o files thanks
15:28<andythenorth>I recall this issue last time I ran port upgrade
15:29<andythenorth>maybe I should alias ./configure :P
15:31<andythenorth>ho, new warnings
15:31<andythenorth>libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
15:31<andythenorth>bad pngs I guess
15:37<raincomplex>pretty sure you can safely ignore that
15:37<raincomplex>i get it all the time with PNGs output by photoshop
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15:38<andythenorth>these are from photoshop
15:38<raincomplex>no idea if there's actually some kind of minute color skewing occurring or not
15:38<andythenorth>they’re paletted, so no
15:38<raincomplex>but i haven't noticed anything obvious
15:39<raincomplex>well the palette could still not come through right
15:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r27143 /extra/website/templates (footer.html header.html) (2015-02-11 20:38:59 UTC)
15:39<@DorpsGek>[website] -Change: New links to and logo for our server sponsor OVH in header and footer
15:39<raincomplex>color is actually pretty complicated :P
15:39<andythenorth>the game can only show the colours it can show :)
15:40<andythenorth>actually, under 32bpp, that probably doesn’t hold :(
15:40*andythenorth is out of date
15:40<andythenorth>whatever the new title game is, it should feature *many* crossings
15:40<andythenorth>and *many* boats
15:40<andythenorth>and buses leaving depots
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16:02<samu>could this be done?
16:04<samu>that's photoshop
16:04<samu>not real
16:04<samu>but it's to explain something
16:10<samu>does the coal subsidence disaster destroy river tiles?
16:12<@Alberth>I wouldn't be surprised if it did
16:16<andythenorth>why is my computer slow :(
16:16<samu>I had an idea for rivers that has been evolving in my mind, theoryzing how they could be improved, but it's difficult to explain
16:16<andythenorth>only 100% of CPU is used :(
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16:17<samu>that photoshop image sums many of the ideas
16:18<Zuu>including water flows upwards?
16:18<samu>the river tile is "floodable"
16:19<samu>it can be "destroyed" but what it actually destroys, is the water in it
16:20<samu>it's like they're part of the landscape, much like desert tiles in tropic
16:20<samu>you destroy them, but they come back to its original form
16:20<Zuu>Sounds like a sound idea.
16:21<andythenorth>ImportError: cannot import name 'PixaColour'
16:21<andythenorth>trying to run Iron Horse under python 3
16:21<andythenorth>imports changed in python 3?
16:22<Zuu>The part about water flooding upwards can be discussed, but flodding on the same level and that it is part of the landscape sounds good.
16:22<andythenorth>module will import directly into python prompt
16:22<samu>then the costs for building ship infrastructure could hopefully be drastically reduced in price
16:22<samu>you build the structure, but not with water in it
16:22<samu>you let the water do its job
16:22<samu>it floods your infrastructure
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16:23<samu>hopefully this reduces the cost
16:23*andythenorth contemplates learning about imports
16:23<@Alberth>samu: use a basecost mod grf ?
16:24<andythenorth>guess who did from pixa import *
16:24<andythenorth>is that now banned?
16:24<@Alberth>it is?
16:24<andythenorth>or maybe people just gripe about it
16:24<@Alberth>not just highly discouraged?
16:24<samu>i don't know the whole basecost mod
16:24<samu>but when it involves water, it's quite complex
16:24<samu>it adds the cost of water
16:26<samu>my idea is to keep the cost of the water for cleaning the infrastructure, assuming it's already flooded
16:26<samu>difficult to explain
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is probably no good reason to do "from _ import *" in most cases
16:27<andythenorth>in the package
16:27<andythenorth>I have changed from pixa import *
16:27<andythenorth>to from pixa.pixa import *
16:27<andythenorth>which appears to work
16:27<andythenorth>something to do with relative imports
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in you probably want to hide internals, so only import the external interface
16:28<andythenorth>explicit import declarations?
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>"from _ import a,b,c,x"
16:29<samu>another problem I have with the current river tiles is upon map generation
16:30<samu>it's not friendly for locks
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>no, the current locks are just terrible
16:30<samu>if the lock is a 1x3 structure
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>it has nothing to do with how rivers are generated
16:31<samu>the tile where it is put could be 3x3 or 5x3, with entry and exit indicators, so to say where the next river tile will be put and where it came from
16:32<samu>i must draw it
16:32<samu>else it's too hard to explain
16:33<samu>brb, drawing
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, i had this idea of "traffic objects". which are placed like eyecandy objects, but they have a statemachine for vehicles travelling through them, like airports and bus stations
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>applications could be better locks, drawbridges, highways, ...
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>locks that actually lock, and move the ship vertically
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>more layout variations
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>or ship lifts that cover higher altitudes
16:36<andythenorth>vehicle ferries
16:36<andythenorth>non-linear tunnels
16:36<andythenorth>turntables and roundhouses
16:36<andythenorth>truck loading bays
16:37<andythenorth>clover leaf junctions
16:37*andythenorth words
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>funiculars: probably not, that's more like another traffic type (pipes). vehicle ferries: short river ferries maybe, but not long-distance ocean ones. tunnels: unlikely. roundhouses: would need an additional depot overhaul. truck loading bays: not talking about stations here, but it's kind of on the same lines. clover leaf junctions: kinda part of "highways"
16:40<@Alberth>no traffic object for loading a ferry, and another one for unloading?
16:40<@Alberth>hmm, intermediate storage is a problem of course
16:41<andythenorth>nah, just do limited-length ferries
16:41<@Alberth>perhaps a bit bridge-like :p
16:41<andythenorth>like a bridge
16:41<andythenorth>would be a nice transport type
16:41<andythenorth>being as the game is done
16:41<andythenorth>at least for v1
16:41<andythenorth>time for v2
16:43<samu>so that's an example. at the points 0,-2 and 0,2 there's no water tiles, but it would indicate where the world generating would continue the river
16:43<@Alberth>why would nature care for lock building?
16:43<samu>because no one likes ships
16:43<andythenorth>what time of day is ‘too late to be converting things to python 3’?
16:43<andythenorth>is it now?
16:44<@Alberth>:O that happens daily?
16:44<@Alberth>for me, it's too late for just about anything :p
16:44<andythenorth>I think I hit that point
16:44<@Alberth>then you stop, go to sleep, try again to morrow
16:45<samu>1,0 and -1,0 would have no possibility to the river generator spawn another waterfall
16:45<andythenorth>I wanted to see if Iron Horse compiles faster with py3 nml
16:45<andythenorth>but I cba to put the py2 + py3 makefile stuff in
16:45<andythenorth>converting seems…better…but slower
16:45<andythenorth>and more wtf?
16:45<@Alberth>still using py2 nml?
16:45<andythenorth>for Iron Horse
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16:46<andythenorth>I have to remember not to break it by over-writing it with 0.4x
16:46<@Alberth>build nml file, compile manually once with old nml, and once with new nml ?
16:46<andythenorth>good point
16:46<samu>also the tyles at 0,0, 0,1 and 0,-1 must have that shape exactly like that
16:47<andythenorth>also sleeping time soon
16:47<samu>that's some ideas for the river generator
16:47<samu>but I guess nature is nature
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16:49<samu>if I can't touch the way rivers are created, then... things become quite hard for the ideas I had theoryzed
16:49<@planetmaker>samu, Sure it can be touched. But it needs actually writing that code change
16:49<andythenorth>rivers need improved
16:49<andythenorth>but nobody knows how
16:51<samu>if, or when rivers are indestructible and part of the landscape, much like a desert tile and grass tile
16:51<samu>it would be preferable for them to spawn in a friendly way
16:51<samu>for locks
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17:01<andythenorth>ho bedtime
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17:04<samu>uhm, people fleeing because of river tiles
17:04<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> what time of day is ‘too late to be converting things to python 3’? <-- "it's 4 o'clock *somewhere*"?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>aw, i missed him.
17:05<Diablo-D3>its never 4 oclock
17:05<Diablo-D3>time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so
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17:06<samu>I would need something like this to check tiles, or structures: "is flooded", "is floodable", "must build on top of floodable"
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>samu: i don't think you're approaching this from the right angle
17:09<samu>rivers are already set in landscape
17:09<samu>they can only be cleansed of water
17:09<samu>so, "is flooded" = true/false
17:10<samu>yeah, this needs thinking
17:10<samu>how would you approach this
17:11<samu>a lock, upon placement, would require something like needing a "is floodable" = true tile
17:12<samu>but that tile could be currently dry, "is flooded" = false or true, doesnt' matter
17:13<samu>ships would only walk on "is flooded" tiles
17:13<samu>am i making sense?
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17:14<samu>if there is floodable tiles, but no water source that would actually flood those tiles, there would be no possibility to have ships in that route
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17:15<samu>water will spread when in contact with "is floodable" = true
17:15<samu>but a company can't build water, it needs a source
17:16<samu>all the company can do is build the infrastructure, which can be flooded
17:16<samu>it doesn't provide water immediately upon placement, you see what I mean?
17:16<@planetmaker>ah, that's what you mean
17:16<@planetmaker>you mean canals shouldn't be watered initially, but only when connected to water
17:17<samu>i hope this reduces the costs of building water lanes
17:17<samu>but i dunno how the costs work exactly
17:18<samu>if water is involved, I just don't understand the whole deal
17:18<samu>just attempting to drasticaly reduce the cost of building water routes this way
17:19<samu>but once you need to remove that infrastructure, and if it is currently in the state "is flooded" = true, that would cost MAJOR to clean, because it has water
17:19<Zuu>If it is all about cost, then use Ctrl + Alt + C
17:19<samu>upon construction = cheap, upon removing = costly
17:21<samu>when building a canal tile, it's actually built in a dried state
17:21<samu>if connected to a water tile, it floods
17:21<samu>so, yeah, pretty much all infrastructure would become cheaper to build
17:23<samu>i dont want to cheap to build water stuff
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17:26<samu>one other thing about river tiles which I am unsure how to deal with, is the terraforming
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17:27<samu>Ideally terraforming river tiles could become impossible
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i found when i dabbled in rivers, and the only sane conclusion was: don't terraform, allow rivers on any kind of tile instead. but that never happened
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17:29<samu>If I go back to the idea of making rivers more lock-friendly, terraforming would be better if forbidden, a compromise, which may suck, depending on the point of view
17:30<Diablo-D3>I kinda wish rivers flowed into bodies of water better
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>samu: but terraforming rivers happens all the time
17:30<Diablo-D3>or if you delete a river panel, it tries to reconnect by flowing around whatever you just built
17:31<samu>rivers can't be destroyed if they're part of landscape
17:31<samu>they can be cleared
17:31<Diablo-D3>it costs me like $20k to delete a damned river tile
17:31<samu>clear them = becomes dry, but does not really destroy the river
17:31<samu>just dries it
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>loads of people rerouted rivers
17:32<Diablo-D3>I dunno, I just kinda wish rivers could get bigger
17:32<Diablo-D3>like, wider
17:32<Diablo-D3>like two or three tiles wide
17:33<Diablo-D3>water has like no use during competitive play
17:34<samu>it's as if rivers were roads
17:34<Diablo-D3>yeah kinda.
17:35<Diablo-D3>but then rivers should like, expand on their own
17:35<Diablo-D3>like how cities grow roads
17:35<samu>they have two states, dried, flooded, no, they can't expand
17:35<samu>you can build canals connected to them
17:35<samu>canals start up as dry
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17:35<samu>they're flooded if adjacent to a source of water, in this case, a flooded river tile
17:35<Diablo-D3>yeah Ive built canals before
17:35<samu>my idea would be this
17:36<Diablo-D3>but wait, my canals started wet
17:36<samu>I know, I'm only theoryzing an idea for them
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17:36<Diablo-D3>that'd be interesting
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17:36<Diablo-D3>I dunno, its like
17:37<Diablo-D3>I want better water action
17:37<Diablo-D3>and we have good grfs for it
17:37<Diablo-D3>but no server uses the grfs =/
17:37<samu>you would be able to destroy your canals, it would actually remove the canal tile and the water with it
17:38<samu>and would COST YOU
17:38<Diablo-D3>if I put a canal over a river
17:38<Diablo-D3>does it cost $20k?
17:38<samu>that's a aqueduct
17:39<Diablo-D3>no I mean
17:39<Diablo-D3>place on that tile
17:39<Diablo-D3>is it the same as deleting a river?
17:39<samu>the lock? that 1x3 size structure?
17:40<Diablo-D3>I mean the 1x1 canal tiles
17:40<Diablo-D3>the man-made river tiles
17:40<Diablo-D3>Im not sure what the game calls them
17:40<samu>ah, you can
17:40<samu>but a ship won't traverse them unless you build a lock afterwards
17:40<Diablo-D3>you know, canals are useless
17:40<Diablo-D3>I just realized I cant plop a dock anywhere
17:41<samu>for me the current problem is the prohibitive costs
17:41<Diablo-D3>I can connect two lakes/oceans/whatever
17:41<Diablo-D3>but I cant spawn a lake somewhere
17:41<Diablo-D3>I cant fill a dry lakebed
17:42<samu>oh, you mean build a canal on top of a river tile?
17:42<samu>damn sorry I misunderstood
17:43<samu>for my theoryzed idea, I'd prefer to still be able to do that
17:44<samu>destroying it would rever back to river tile
17:44<Diablo-D3>yeah a canal on top of a river tile
17:44<Diablo-D3>do I still pay that $20k cost
17:44<Diablo-D3>the river deletion cost
17:45<Diablo-D3>because if I don't, then I think openttd might be broken
17:45<Diablo-D3>unless deleting a canal costs $20k
17:45<samu>let me check, i dont really know exact costs
17:45<Diablo-D3>I dont toy with canals, I just know river deletion is around $20k per tile
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17:46<Diablo-D3>which sucks because competitive servers leave rivers on
17:46<samu>costed me £3750 for 1x1 canal tile on a river tile
17:46<samu>also 3750 to clean it
17:46<samu>and it's gone forever, river tile included :(
17:47<Diablo-D3>okay so what happens if you bomb a river tile
17:47<Diablo-D3>how much did it cost
17:47<Diablo-D3>thats broken, but in the opposite direction
17:47<samu>oh, 7500
17:47<Diablo-D3>oh hrm
17:47<samu>destroying river tile = 7500
17:47<Diablo-D3>damnit still cant win
17:47<samu>destroying canal = 3750
17:47<Diablo-D3>building canal = 3750 too?
17:48<samu>destroying canal on river tile = 3750
17:48<Diablo-D3>3750 + 3750 = 7500 =/
17:48<Diablo-D3>cant win
17:48<Diablo-D3>I was hoping I thought of a way around paying that money
17:48<Diablo-D3>oh well
17:49<samu>back to my theorycrafting
17:50<samu>build a canal tile = something much cheaper than 3750, maybe 375?
17:50<Diablo-D3>I dunno, I just wish openttd had more of a ship game
17:50<samu>destroying a canal tile = depends on if it's currently dry or with water
17:51<samu>if watered = 3750, if dry = something around 375
17:51<Diablo-D3>samu: my problem is this
17:51<Diablo-D3>I cant build a lake
17:51<Diablo-D3>even if its near a river
17:55<samu>near a coast?
17:55<samu>grr get me a screenshot, :P
18:00<samu>Eddi|zuHause: i just noticed something, rivers do not traverse desert tiles, :)
18:01<samu>must look at arctic landscape
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>how do you mean?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>tiles around rivers are turned into non-desert during map generation
18:01<samu>create a new game in sub-tropic and you'll see
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think you got that backwards :p
18:02<samu>oh, that
18:04<samu>hmm arctic is non-caring if snow or not snow
18:04<samu>doesn't care
18:04<samu>river just goes anywhere
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>rivers are placed before snow/desert is decided
18:04<@planetmaker> <--- can contain traces of irony? ;)
18:05<samu>i can't german :(
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: exaggeration maybe, but not irony.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's my honest opinion that the opengfx release should be with the beta release
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's not like there are huge changes to be expected in the next 2 or 3 months anyway
18:07<@planetmaker>yes... should...yet all feedback I always get is along the lines of "sucks". Not motivating really
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know your feedback.
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18:08<@planetmaker>also, this is the first year that opengfx is *not* released along with the -beta1
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>really? i remember loads of times where people came here with "this reports missing sprites, but there is no update"
18:09<@planetmaker>they do that all the time during nightlies
18:10<@planetmaker>and even do so because they simply didn't find the ingame update option as they only look for newgrfs
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, sure nightly, but i specifically remember something about betas as well
18:11<@planetmaker>hm... maybe... hg log -r'tag()' is not entirely conclusive
18:14<@planetmaker>2009/10/11/12 all have tags immediately before Christmas. 2013/2014 don't
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>so, last year already had this problem and i didn't imagine it.
18:16<@planetmaker>it doesn't mean the problem existed... depends when new required sprites were added
18:18<@planetmaker>going by changelog it didn't exist in 2013/2014
18:18<@planetmaker>thus this *is* the first time it happens
18:18<@planetmaker>and those are all whiners. However they are right
18:18<samu>we're in 2015 :O
18:19<@planetmaker>yes, for 6 weeks
18:22<samu>river tiles
18:23<samu>dried river tile <=> railway track
18:23<samu>watered river tile <=> electrified railway track
18:25<samu>oh gosh, I wish I could code something as big as this
18:27<samu>Eddi|zuHause: something just crossed my mind about terraforming and rivers
18:27<samu>they start at some hill or fountain kind of object
18:28<samu>which doesn't exist currently
18:28<samu>this object is permanently fixed
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, the OpenTTD rivers kinda represent shipable rivers. real rivers continue along in a non-shipable way to their spring (and side streams)
18:29<samu>the river that spawn from it could be "terraformable"
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>so the point where the river starts is not the actual spring
18:30<samu>so it starts from the ocean
18:30<samu>and goes in-land
18:32<samu>what you call of real river is those level 0
18:32<samu>water? the ocean
18:32<samu>with coastal tiles?
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18:33<samu>I guess that's what you mean
18:34<samu>to terraform rivers or not to, that is the question
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, the game does not really have an opinion on where the river starts and ends, it just is there. it's not flowing in any direction
18:39<samu>what type of sacrifices would you see as aceptable, I want to make up my mind before starting to dwelve into coding (if I could actually manage to do something at all)
18:41<samu>terraforming is still the big question
18:41<samu>if players are forbidden to terraform river tiles, I can come up with a feasable model
18:42<samu>else, I need to think...
18:52<samu>I have to leave now, see ya tomorrow.
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