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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-13

---Logopened Fri Feb 13 00:00:11 2015
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00:07<supermop>yo
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00:49<supermop>wow two eddis
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02:36<@peter1138># Hey, hey, marry me, archie
03:16-!-supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
03:16<supermop>hello
03:18<__ln__>hello supermop australis
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03:21<supermop>hello __ln__ somewhere
03:44<@planetmaker>moin
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04:51<supermop>hi planetmaker
05:35*Flygon Australias all over __Ln__
05:35<Flygon>__ln__*
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05:59<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: you've never seen someone randomly disconnect and reconnect before their ghost timed out?
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06:14<V453000>FRIDAY FRIDAY
06:14<V453000>fuck everything
06:14<V453000>bridge time
06:14<Diablo-D3>heh
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's friday the 13th
06:15<Diablo-D3>I should start up a openttd server that is like the rest and runs citybuilder....
06:15<Diablo-D3>but the goal is a 100k city.
06:15<Diablo-D3>and it starts the year that everything is available
06:15<Diablo-D3>either that, or starts in the brutal past
06:15<V453000>I need to get running the last piece of YETI in order to make it a true citybuilder :)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>you need yeti houses?
06:17<Diablo-D3>veti?
06:17<Diablo-D3>er yeti?
06:17<V453000>not really Eddi :)
06:17<Diablo-D3>what is this yeti
06:18<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>the Yeti Extremely Tedious Industries. or so :p
06:18<Diablo-D3>that looks interesting
06:18<Diablo-D3>but no basically I just want huger shit
06:18<Diablo-D3>like enable 14x14 stations
06:19<Diablo-D3>and other crazy shit
06:19<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7301 concept which should allow for stuff :)
06:19<V453000>14x14 isnt that huge
06:19<Diablo-D3>its huge when 7x7 just isnt cutting it for 25k =P
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's two tiles bigger than default!
06:19<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: er?
06:20<V453000>Diablo-D3: well building only one station per city is pretty boring on itself :P
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>default station spread is 12
06:20<Diablo-D3>er
06:22<@planetmaker>surprise, surprise. And eddi is right
06:22<V453000>:)
06:23<Diablo-D3>then why do servers use such small shit?
06:23<@planetmaker>because huge stations are easy-peasy
06:24<V453000>many players abuse the station spread more than utilize it
06:24<@planetmaker>allowing small stations is a difficulty setting of sorts
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: so, what's stopping you from running 100k city builder?
06:26-!-shirish [~quassel@117.222.5.27] has joined #openttd
06:26<Diablo-D3>nothing i guess
06:27<V453000>XD
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06:28<V453000>the problems are real
06:30<Diablo-D3>I dunno
06:31<Diablo-D3>last time I started a server no one ever joined
06:32<@planetmaker>a server running only very occasionally is not very attractive to the occasional player. They prefer to join servers which are there regularily and which they can rely on to provide the experience they expect
06:32<@planetmaker>and each server offers a different experience.
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, either you have a few friends that you agree on to join the server at the same time, or you have a regularly scheduled time for random people to rely on
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>part of the reason why city builder servers are popular is that they start over every few hours
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>so whenever you have time, you can join a fresh game
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>and when you can't, it doesn't matter
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>so, if you define something like "server runs every day from 18:00 CET to 0:00 CET" [that is probably the user peak hours, ca. 30 years of game time]
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>you might have more success
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06:59<Romazoon>Hi all,
07:01<V453000>hy
07:01<V453000>,
07:01<Romazoon>i wanted to know waht you guys think of the avalaible feature to update newgrf. i think it s nice, but it should also allow to update just a single newgrf and not the full list
07:01<V453000>it does allow that I thought?
07:02<Romazoon>how ? i tried highlighting just one newgrf and click on update newgrf, but it does update the all list not just the highlighted one
07:02<V453000>hm
07:03<V453000>guess not then :)
07:03<V453000>idk, but doing it manually is just one step aside :P
07:03<V453000>ah not in the preset though
07:03<V453000>2 clicks there
07:03<V453000>hm
07:03<Romazoon>yes that s how i do it ;)
07:03<V453000>rawr though :)
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>Romazoon: so how often do you think people want to keep an unupdated NewGRF, when they have the upgrade available?
07:05<Romazoon>hmm, as often as the upgrade break compatibility
07:05<V453000>^ that
07:05<supermop>night
07:05<V453000>you usually want to at least try it
07:05<V453000>change back eventually
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't want it, just delete the NewGRF
07:05<V453000>compatibility .. with old savegames?
07:05<Romazoon>some upgrade of newgrf are uncompatible with their oldervesion
07:06<Romazoon>Fish
07:06<Romazoon>as exemple
07:06<Romazoon>that became Squid
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>it should probably check that if done in a savegame...
07:06<@planetmaker>eh, you do not update the used newgrfs of a savegame anyway...
07:06<V453000>oh you can also update stuff in a savegame? :0
07:06<@planetmaker>no
07:07<V453000>I would have been surprised :D
07:07<@planetmaker>unless you want to break stuff and accepted to know what you do
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>outside the savegame, what does it matter?
07:07<@planetmaker>but that doesn't need an extra button
07:07<@planetmaker>and outside, indeed, breaking compatibility doesn't matter
07:07<Romazoon>ok you guys have make a valid point
07:08<Romazoon>*have made
07:08<@planetmaker>yeah. updating the preset doesn't mean that any file is deleted or that your saves will start using the new versions
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's still a difference between making a supposedly working update (according to compatible version), vs. a known broken update
07:09<Romazoon>yes i totally love that feature for my preset....
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07:09<@planetmaker>I don't understand what you try to say, Eddi|zuHause
07:09<Romazoon>but i just keep using nightlies of newgrfs...with update regularly
07:10<@planetmaker>that doesn't change anything of what was said
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: let's suppose i use two GRFs in a savegame, and i downloaded an update for both of them. grf A is marked compatible with its older version, and grf B is marked incompatible (by the author of the GRF)
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: now i want to update the grfs in the savegame
07:10<@planetmaker>unless *you* overwrite existing files, Romazoon. But that's nothing OpenTTD would do
07:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, don't update grfs in a savegame. You know what you do, when you do. That's the deal
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it should allow changing the compatible, but disallow changing the incompatible
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07:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's not about "knowing what you do"
07:11<Romazoon>Exactly what eddi said
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the premise is already that you "know what you do", because you enabled changing of NewGRFs ingame.
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but the game should still use this data of known compatible/incompatible that the author put in
07:13<@planetmaker>often the compatibility is only a claimed compatibility, I recon. Mistakes happen. And easily
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's also besides the point
07:13<@planetmaker>it is indeed
07:13<Romazoon>well i don t pretend to know what i do ;) i mess things up often... i try not to report when it s obvious it s my mistake that s it ;)
07:14<@planetmaker>in that case it's about newgrf authors knowing what they do. They often don't when it comes to indicating compatibility to earlier versions
07:14<Romazoon>thanks Eddi for finding the right words for me !
07:14<@planetmaker>and I cannot even blame them
07:15<@planetmaker>it's extremely easy to introduce small incmpatible updates
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you still miss the point
07:15<@planetmaker>anyhow, assuming that's not an issue, one cannot update compatibly marked newgrfs in a savegame.
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>under the premise that EVERYONE knows what they do, and ALL THE DATA is correct. the "upgrade" button should change compatible versions, and disregard incompatible ones
07:16<Romazoon>or let the player choose the ones he wants to upgrade (since he know what he s doing)
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>if used inside a savegame
07:16<@planetmaker>yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames
07:17<@planetmaker>Romazoon, no, we do not allow that unless you are a newgrf or scenario developer. Only those know what they do (by indicating they are a developer)
07:17<Romazoon>I am both
07:19<Romazoon>anyway, thanks for your answer, i wanted to hear your opinion before making a new flyspray suggestion
07:19<Romazoon>and i see it s not necessary to make one
07:19<Romazoon>i will update manually when i really need to, and fully enjoy the "uppgrade" for my preset list
07:19<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames <-- then the question is, why? all the data is there. use it.
07:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, because simply no-one wrote that patch yet
07:20<@planetmaker>yes, all data is there. And it could be used. At least for people who are scenario_ or newgrf_developer
07:21<@planetmaker>Romazoon, you heard about one opinion. Mine is neither official nor representative
07:22<@planetmaker>And the main point is: no-one wrote what you asked. So far I only described the is- state
07:23<Romazoon>i know, but i totally get your point in a way, i m asking for a feature that only "very" advanced player should use, i m not able to develop that patch, and there is a work around solution existing so why bother with it and bring more complexity to the ui
07:23<@planetmaker>because at least two people would like it?
07:23<@planetmaker>and I don't see much complexity in the UI. The current buttons would do
07:24<Romazoon>well that was also the point of me showing off in here and suggest it ;)
07:25<Romazoon>now the idea is in the air at least, not just in my mind (and Eddi's mind wich maybe also wanted that before)
07:26<Romazoon>while i m here, i have a question regarding opcodes...
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>i probably want something different from you...
07:28<Romazoon>what can i expect from putting more opcode than the "original" preset of 10K opcode ?
07:29<Romazoon>would it allow Ai to deal with bigger maps and more vehicles ?
07:31<@planetmaker>it's a setting to tune speed of ai and scripts
07:32<Romazoon>so i presume for a larger map i would probably want to set that up ?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>that may help, but it may also just clog your CPU
07:33<Romazoon>i experience often on large maps that AI are lazy
07:33<@planetmaker>humans are similarily lazy in comparison to map size
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, AIs have often not good heuristics in dealing with large amounts of data
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>so they spend ages analyzing the map, while not doing anything
07:34<@planetmaker>but yes, AI handle it worse. They are not taught to ignore most of the map and just getting started on a small part
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>they too often try to find "the best" solution, instead of going what's "good enough"
07:34<Romazoon>clog my CPU is not what i m looking for ( i m able to do it alone ;) don t need help from AI.)
07:35<@planetmaker>Which reminds me: it would be awesome to have a regular AI competition with some more visbility
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's also why two of the same AI personality get in each others way, not accomplishing anything
07:35<@planetmaker>AI development seems mostly stalled
07:35<Flygon>What if I told you
07:35<Flygon>I was actually a robot
07:35<Flygon>And I am an AI
07:35<@planetmaker>direct order: start competition now :P
07:35<V453000>robots dont have bad ideas
07:35<Romazoon>oh Eddi ! really ?? so that s i guess the problem i encounter with my "multiple Civil Ai"....
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>Romazoon: probably. AIs think too deterministicly, so they always try the same routes that the other one did already
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07:38<@planetmaker>Romazoon, if you play with AI it usually is a good idea to try a different one for each AI company you want
07:39<Romazoon>thanks guys for the answers, make things more clear now :)
07:40<Romazoon>planetmaker : i do use AI only for "eyecandy" purpose, not looking for competition, and i liked the way civil AI built roads, so running multiple of them usually create a nice road network without effort
07:41<Romazoon>but i understand the problem now
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07:43<Romazoon>thanks again guys for all your answer, this community rocks. got to go now bye
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07:44<andythenorth>peter1138: you didn’t change address since October, right?
07:45-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd
07:46*andythenorth also has a _shitload_ of 512MB, 1GB and 2GB SODIMMs (laptops), mostly DDR3 by the looks of it
07:46<andythenorth>if anybody wants, will post some, no warranty :D
07:46<SpComb>melt them for gold
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07:54<Diablo-D3>heh
07:54<Diablo-D3>sell em on ebay
07:54<andythenorth>they have -ve value
07:55<andythenorth>the listing fee probably outweighs the sell price
07:55<andythenorth>and the work to list them :P
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07:55<@peter1138>andythenorth, nope
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i always thought that ebay fees were a % of the selling price
07:56<andythenorth>plausible :)
07:56<andythenorth>years since I ebayed anything, loads of work to do it
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>or alternatively a % of the initial price
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10:25<Romazoon>i m about to start a small AI competition/test. any advice? any AI maker here that wants his product tested ? I m thinking to do that on a (not dedicated) server with 1.5 beta and common newgrfs,, so if someone is interested to watch it should be possible.
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10:32<samu>hi, what happened to Morloth, NoCab creator?
10:32<samu>is he still around?
10:33-!-Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
10:34<samu>there is some nasty problem with ships for this AI
10:34<samu>it slows down the game, he got 200+ ships blocked in a route he created himself, and instead of giving up, he keeps adding more and more
10:35<samu>slowing down the whole game more and more
10:35<samu>watch it > http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto
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10:48<Keen>Hi everyone, I have a question: I was playing on reddit Server 1 some hours ago and at one point my company just vanished and my aircrafts went over to a competitor. How? I had set a password. I was in negative balance at the time (maybe that matters?)
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10:54<samu>yes
10:54<samu>negative balance: you were being an offer for buyout to other companies
10:55<Keen>oh shiet ok. so, basically, never be in the red?
10:55<samu>yes, try to avoid it for prolongued time
10:55<Keen>I was just confused because there was no message no nothing, everything just vanished
10:56<samu>it should come up in the newspaper, about the merging
10:56<Keen>I deactivated some news messages, maybe that is why I didnt see it
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11:22<Keen>Is this game played competitively? If yes, are there VODs available?
11:23<@Alberth>some people play it that way
11:23<@Alberth>no idea what VODs are
11:24<Keen>Videos, replays
11:24<Keen>VOD = video on demand
11:24<samu>http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto
11:24<@Alberth>never seen any, but then again, I don't play competitvely
11:24<samu>keks
11:24<samu>i think nop
11:25<@Alberth>you should have a look at the various game servers that exist
11:25<Keen>yay twitch! :p
11:25<@Alberth>http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
11:25<samu>there's competitive servers, they maintain highscores, and stuff, but so far I don't know of any who makes vods
11:25<Keen>yeah spectating is one thing, but watching somebody play, maybe even with voice is more insightful
11:26<samu>games tend to last hours
11:27-!-shirish [~quassel@117.222.0.105] has joined #openttd
11:27<Keen>One does not simply become the mightiest landline in half an hour
11:27<Romazoon>i think you can find replay of the BTproserver on youtube
11:28<Romazoon>i think they compete for the fastest growed town (first one to reach the objective)
11:28<Keen>"OpenTTD CityBuilder 4000 on BTPro server 13 [3/3]" something like that?
11:29<@Alberth>yeah, city building is the newest form
11:30<samu>not really an engaging player versus player
11:30<samu>but
11:30<samu>if you're actually the player, it can be thrilling
11:31<samu>if you're spectating... meh, not so much
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11:33<Keen>I like to watch competitve players play in other games. You can learn so fast doing that.
11:34<Keen>especially when they comment themselves or somebody who knows what their thought process is
11:36-!-shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:37<samu>there's no one on my game, I'm gonna close NoCAB AI
11:37<samu>no one will notice
11:37<samu>:p
11:39<samu>much faster now
11:40<samu>woah my server is not listed
11:40<samu>http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
11:40-!-andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has left #openttd []
11:40<samu>sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't
11:41<samu>i hate dynamic ips
11:45<samu>local address 192.168.1.3
11:45<samu>bah, i have the port forward on 192.168.1.2
11:49-!-quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd
11:56<NGC3982>samu: Do you need help?
11:56<samu>my modem/router is so confusing to configure
11:56<samu>grr
11:59<samu>restarting this...
12:00-!-samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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12:33-!-samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd
12:33<samu>I need help, can you try join this game? http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856
12:33<samu>got several openttd's open and hosting, i wonder which one will you get in
12:34<NGC3982>Syre.
12:34<NGC3982>Sure.*
12:34<samu>no idea what's going on with these servers
12:34<NGC3982>Uh, 1.5.0-beta1.
12:35*NGC3982 downloads.
12:35<samu>oh, sorry
12:35<samu>i can't join my own server on my near computer
12:35<NGC3982>:-)
12:35<NGC3982>Why are you running the testing version on a dedicated server?
12:36<samu>not a dedicated server
12:36<NGC3982>Oh.
12:36<samu>this thing gets messed up with several OpenTTD's open at the same time, I don't know why
12:39<samu>85.139.81.208:3979
12:39<samu>server offline, i dont get it
12:39<samu>it's here http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856
12:39<samu>and i can't join my own server?
12:40<NGC3982>I can join your server.
12:40<samu>i noticed
12:40<samu>i closed one of openttds, the one where you didn't show
12:40<NGC3982>I do not think you can join your own server by connecting with external non-NAT address.
12:40<NGC3982>If that is your issue.
12:41<samu>funny
12:41<samu>the game is gone
12:41<samu>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856 - Online? No...
12:43<samu>openttd #1 - where you did show up
12:43<NGC3982>That server is online.
12:43<samu>openttd #2 - you did not show up here, I closed it
12:43<samu>and now openttd #1 is now offlin
12:43<NGC3982>Oh, you have two servers?
12:43<samu>i just dont get it
12:44<samu>that link shows openttd #1
12:44<samu>I closed openttd #2 and it made openttd #1 server go offline
12:45<samu>why?
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27145 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2015-02-13 17:45:22 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>malay - 11 changes by TheITChap
12:45<samu>if i start openttd #2 server again, you are re-directed to openttd #1, and it shows on the list
12:45-!-TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:46<samu>any ideas what could be wrong here?
12:47<@Alberth>they both use the same port?
12:47<samu>yes
12:47<@Alberth>that's what is wrong then
12:47<samu>how can i even configure that
12:48<samu>i can only chose 1 port
12:48<@Alberth>openttd has an option to set the port
12:48<@Alberth>(I think)
12:49<samu>there is only one openttd.cfg file
12:49<samu>i run the same openttd instance from the same folder multiple times
12:50<samu>multiple openttd's, one openttd.cfg
12:50<@Alberth>sounds quite wrong too :)
12:50<@Alberth>with option, I mean a command-line option, not an openttd.cfg option
12:50-!-TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
12:51<@Alberth>it's still wrong though, as you probably don't want to share passwords etc
12:51<samu>it's not a dedicated server
12:51<samu>no passwords
12:52<@Alberth>oh joy
12:52<samu>i only intend to have 1 server running
12:53<samu>all the other openttds are for single player testing stuff
12:53<samu>scenario editor, my usual test
12:54<samu>currently I must start two servers to make it work... that's so strange
12:54<samu>3979 is the port
12:54<samu>brb
12:56<samu>deleting windows firewall entries related to openttd
12:56<samu>it will re-create them on next run
12:58<samu>online: yes
12:58<samu>hmm now let me start a 2nd openttd
12:58-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
12:59-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
12:59<samu>can't join my own server with openttd 2, not listed
12:59<samu>i used to be able to do this
13:00<samu>not listed in game, but listed in the website
13:01<+glx>probably your router
13:01<samu>it becomes listed when i change advertised to no
13:02<samu>confused, it's working in some unintended way
13:02<samu>the game is advertised
13:05<samu>well, i can join it, that's all it matters, but it's strange that i have to list non-advertised games
13:06<samu>server addres 192.168.1.3:3979
13:06<samu>meh... it's not picking up the internet address
13:06<samu>that's the LAN address
13:13-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd
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13:18<samu>yay, desert tiles have an interesting property
13:19<samu>if I level all the terrain to level 0
13:19<samu>covering all of it in water, then level it back to 1
13:19<samu>the desert tiles will re-emerge exactly where they were before
13:20<samu>it's something like this that I need for river tiles
13:21<samu>nice to know that this behaviour is already implemented in the game
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>there's a pig in my minecart and it won't come out...
13:26<samu>woah, no matter what level, the desert tiles will always spawn in the same (x, y) coordinates
13:26-!-JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
13:27<samu>yay, this is such a welcome feature
13:29<samu>I need this for the terraforming river tiles, it will be usefull to maintain river tiles exactly where they were
13:29<samu>no matter the height
13:34-!-Keen [~Sedo@2a02:810b:340:3648:18c1:99d6:fca5:aa17] has joined #openttd
13:35<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: and you can't hit it withou breaking the minecart
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i was hoping i could wave a carrot and it would get out and join my other pigs in the farm... haven't tried hitting it yet
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13:55<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Just push the cart off a cliff ;D
13:57-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>what would that accomplish?
13:59<andythenorth>o/
13:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: just set fire to everything
13:59<andythenorth>with dynamite
14:00-!-shirish__ [~quassel@117.222.1.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:00*andythenorth has concluded that MC is most enjoyable for 7 year olds
14:02-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f747cf0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:04<@Alberth>o/
14:05<andythenorth>quak
14:05<andythenorth>etc
14:06<frosch123>hola
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you're telling me to not enjoy minecraft?
14:10-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.38.183] has joined #openttd
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>the funniest feature of minecraft i have seen so far is swimming up waterfalls :p
14:10<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not telling you anything :)
14:23<@Alberth>moin
14:37<samu>basecosts
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>cucumbers
14:38<samu>question, i know there is a basecosts newgrf, but in the original OpenTTD, why do canals, aqueducts and locks have such high costs in them?
14:38<@Alberth>broke
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>samu: somebody thought they should.
14:39<samu>are they dependent of water costs?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>samu: for the most part, prices in this game are completely arbitrary
14:39<samu>tied?
14:40<@Alberth>no simple way to move smoke of an engine, it seems
14:40<samu>if i want to reduce aqueduct cost, without affecting the cost of clearing water, I just cant?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i think there was a property where the smoke should emerge (along the engine's travelling direction
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: plus there is the new effects callback
14:41<@Alberth>yeah, just want to move the smoke to the chimney, instead of before it :)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Visual effects and wagon power (22) By default, the visual effect of train engines is determined by the traction type (property 19). With this option you can change the type of effect as well as the position of it relative to the vehicle."
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>nml probably has that encoded in some macro thingie
14:44<@Alberth>hmm, I am pretty sure andy used it, and he doesn't do nfo :)
14:44<@Alberth>let's see what fishes do
14:46-!-gelignite [~gelignite@i528C321F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>"visual_effect_and_powered (VISUAL_EFFECT_XXX, offset, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER or DISABLE_WAGON_POWER)"
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>"An offset of 0 is default, negative values mean more to the front and positive values are backwards. Minimum offset is -8, maximum is 7."
14:47<@Alberth>totally missed that, and it's in the middle of the page! thanks
14:47-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:48<frosch123>Alberth: i think the smoke position is often wrong for some directions
14:48<frosch123>either the alignment of the smoke-sprite is not centered to the spawning point
14:48<frosch123>or the vehicles do not have the chimney in the same position for all orientations
14:49<frosch123>of course the stretching does not make it easier :)
14:49<@Alberth>make longer smoke :p
14:49<frosch123>but if you want to commit to it, there is a callback to allow positioning depending on vehicle orientation :)
14:49-!-Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5f7674bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:49<samu>question, who came up with these prices for aqueducts? they're so prohibitive! there must be a reason for this to be the base price
14:50<@Alberth>samu: water is supposed to be an obstacle
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>samu: like i said. someone pulled a number out of his arse. and that became the price.
14:51<samu>hmm
14:51<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/px1iu8hht?/px1iu8hht <- ugly, but works
14:51<frosch123>no idea how to make it nicer
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: are you sure the toolbar is always initialized before the statusbar?
14:53<samu>I must have misconcepted something
14:53<samu>misunderstood
14:53<NGC3982>Are you sure you have not underconcepted it?
14:53<samu>the base price of aqueduct has nothing to do with the base price of wate?
14:53<samu>it's totally independent of each other
14:54<samu>?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>samu: there are probably two base costs, one for clearing and one for building
14:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, ShowVitalWindows
14:55<samu>so, I see
14:55<samu>darn... you just ruined my day
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>i resend that
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>resent?
14:56<samu>the prohibitive costs have a solution apparently
14:56<samu>just reduce their base cost, no side effects will happen
14:56<samu>no extra work, no brainstorming of ideas
14:56<samu>I just misconcepted it
14:57<samu>i feel so ashamed now
15:00<@Alberth>frosch123: quite ugly indeed :) shouldn't it do some 'max' ?
15:00<frosch123>where?
15:05-!-jonty-co1p is now known as jonty-comp
15:06<@Alberth>you're changing the window description, hmm, make a constant that is used at both places?
15:06-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
15:06<@Alberth>hi hi andy
15:07<@Alberth>and both descriptions have 640
15:09<frosch123>the toolbar did it like that also before
15:09<frosch123>no idea why
15:09<samu>suggestion, come up with better prices for ship routes
15:09<samu>seriously
15:10<samu>it's ok that they're expensive in relation to roads, rails, but the way it currently is, is just way... over the top
15:11<frosch123>i could try moving it to OnInitialPosition
15:11<samu>especially the aqueduct
15:12<samu>that thing brings down 10 years of money accumulation instantly
15:12<@Alberth>main toolbar is around 700 pixels here
15:12<frosch123>main toolbar sizes according to icon size
15:12<frosch123>the 640 means nothing
15:12<@Alberth>samu: use the already available sea instead
15:13<samu>why so much aversion to lowering prices?
15:13<@Alberth>frosch123: but you're copying default width, ie 640
15:14<frosch123>or i can make InitializePositionSize virtual, and put it there
15:14<@Alberth>samu: that's why there are basecost grfs
15:14<frosch123>Alberth: w->window_desc->default_width = nbuttons * this->smallest_x;
15:14<frosch123>default_width is not used, you can set it to 0
15:14<frosch123>probably i should do that, do avoid confusion
15:15<@Alberth>or add a comment :)
15:15<@Alberth>I can live with the current solution
15:16<@Alberth>virtual InitializeSizePosition has problems with getting the size of both windows?
15:17<samu>I don't understand the logic
15:17<frosch123>the toolbar is always available when the statusbar is
15:17<frosch123>the problem is resizing the window
15:17<frosch123>where to define its size
15:17<frosch123>InitializePositionSize seems to be the place, if not using default_width
15:18<@Alberth>I agree
15:18<@Alberth>perhaps that's a better place
15:20<samu>buoys are cheap, ship depots are cheap, docks are cheap, then suddenly canals and all the new added structures are overly expensive, don't really get why
15:20-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21-!-Tirili [~chatzilla@kel30.kel.studentenwerk-goettingen.de] has joined #openttd
15:21<samu>and i need a newgrf to adjust the pricing
15:21<samu>i thought it was something much more complex than just adjusting prices
15:22<samu>but if it's not, then I don't understand why they have these prices
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15:26<samu>they're ships, it's not like they're an aircraft going at 2000 km/h
15:26<samu>or super big trains at super speeds
15:28<Romazoon>well once upon a time, canal were the Highspeed lines of the ancient world
15:28<samu>and planning a water route in-land also needs some terraforming care, it needs quite some space, and flexibility
15:28<Romazoon>and they were damn expensive
15:28<Romazoon>in money, and especially in number of death
15:29<samu>it isn't always possible to have a ship going into some location
15:29<samu>the game won't suddenly turn into "everyone is making ships" if the costs were cheaper
15:29<Romazoon>and nowaday building a canal or an acqueduct is doubtly cheaper than it use to be (inflation is turned on in real world)
15:30<Keen>Reddit server one has a bunch of griefers on it, anyone here able to deal with them?
15:30<andythenorth>Alberth: smoke is easy to control
15:30<andythenorth>except there are some issues with vehicle length :P
15:31<andythenorth>at different rotations
15:31<andythenorth>but that probably only affects my sprites
15:31<andythenorth>I imagine everyone else draws them ‘correctly’
15:32-!-w1s [~will@211.25.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
15:32<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steam_front.png
15:33<@Alberth>no idea if they are correct, just trying to fix opengfx+trains stuff :)
15:34<frosch123>what do the bounding boxes say?
15:35<frosch123>do their positions make any sense? or is the smoke far away from the bounding boxes?
15:35<frosch123>btw, when do we delete the end-game and highscore windows completely? :p
15:35<samu>i think of ships as slow, yet large capacity buses / trucks
15:35<frosch123>just asking whether it is worth to fix them for zoomgui :)
15:36<samu>I don't see them profiting more than trains, or aircraft
15:36<NGC3982>The fantastic bickering going on the Reddit servers is something else.
15:36<samu>please consider lowering costs for
15:36<samu>water routes
15:37<samu>plese plese plese
15:37<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steam_front_boxes.png
15:38<@Alberth>I wouldn't mind to delete those windows, but it's original ttd stuff
15:38<frosch123>white boxes on white smoke :p
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>most likely the offsets in the code are just wrong, and should be fixed
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>if the smoke looks correct in /\ views
15:39*NGC3982 sees an opportunity to make a Tron mod with that.
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: have you tried the same with original vehicles/base set?
15:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: why? it's ogfx+, not ogfx
15:41<roidal>is there some debug-stuff inside the game? like debug-windows which shows internal data?
15:41<frosch123>yes
15:41<frosch123>search wiki for newgrf and ai debugging tools
15:42<roidal>ok, ty
15:42<frosch123>and the console, if you do not yet know that one
15:46<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/original_steam_front.png
15:46<roidal>console i know
15:47<@Alberth>also wrong :)
15:47<frosch123>original have the smoke all in the same place
15:48<@Alberth>ogfx+trains is faithfully reproducing errors :)
15:48<frosch123>so it must be wrong for shorter vehicles
15:48<@Alberth>ogfx+trains is older than the smoke extension, so that makes sense
15:49<frosch123>no, you could also position the smoke before ogfx+
15:49<frosch123>it's just more advanced now
15:53-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit []
15:56<@Alberth>silly NML parser :) visual_effect_and_powered: visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_STEAM, 0, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER);
15:57-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6BBB8.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
15:58<frosch123>funny how we only enforce a minimal ottd window size of 10x10
15:59<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pho6l0czv?/pho6l0czv <- much better version, now also including enter-chat window
16:01<andythenorth>interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation#Snark_mark
16:01*andythenorth needs a snark-mark
16:02<andythenorth>mostly for Lego forums
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16:04-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:f4da:517a:7790:224a] has quit [Quit: .]
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16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess a mirrored exclamation mark is most excellent for marking irony
16:07-!-Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5f7674bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
16:07<frosch123>!
16:07<andythenorth>ideal
16:07<andythenorth>I particularly like the inversion about the vertical axis
16:08<frosch123>'In algebraic chess notation, "?" denotes a bad move, and "??" a blunder, "?!" a dubious move and "!?" an interesting move. For details of all of the chess punctuation see punctuation (chess).' <- heh
16:09-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
16:10<@Alberth>looks good frosch123
16:11<frosch123>ok, thanks for review :)
16:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27146 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2015-02-13 21:13:45 UTC)
16:13<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Make statusbar and chat-entry window use the same width as the toolbar. Otherwise they lack a size definition.
16:18<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptibr0ltx?/ptibr0ltx <- scale default window sizes with gui zoom. custom stored sizes are not affected
16:20<@Alberth>methods coudl use a little doxygen
16:20<@Alberth>*could
16:21<@Alberth>otherwise fine
16:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27147 /trunk/src (window.cpp window_gui.h) (2015-02-13 21:25:48 UTC)
16:25<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Scale (non-custom) default window sizes according to GUI zoom.
16:26<frosch123>ok, now i have a clean working copy, so i can look at MHL again :p
16:26<@Alberth>:)
16:36<@Alberth>BB news needs a link to the location in the news :)
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16:37<samu>I was bored and went to check prices
16:37<samu>https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2prm1dn2_06IZAigcKIRpIxSNGp22oBda0sL2hp9IIFKBwzJZUCdMcBnwLHm9Vs56jARXaQppXFmded2Xe9y5DtQSYzaT4dA4nbfqkWhkxMxce8IKLMzHcUa9ypsEmzWH_ghU9GAvEWyfWVM__ebVSfA/comparing%20prices.png?psid=1
16:39<samu>used the most expensive bridge
16:39<samu>and yet...
16:40<samu>from 3997 to 52500 is a huge difference
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16:49<andythenorth>libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile
16:49<andythenorth>is a tedious warning
16:49<andythenorth>as I can neither suppress it (afaict)
16:49<andythenorth>nor does it tell me which files are affected
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16:56<andythenorth>how does nmlc print things to stdout?
16:56*andythenorth could probably look
16:57<andythenorth>hmm
16:57<andythenorth>maybe —quiet will shut up libpng
16:57<andythenorth>I can’t see valid errors right now due to acres of invalid errors
16:58<andythenorth>but eh, with —quiet, do I see anything? :P
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16:59<andythenorth>how do I figure out which libpng bundles is using?
17:00<andythenorth>and why does the Iron Horse build look broken :( https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/lastStableBuild/console
17:00<andythenorth>what _have_ I done
17:00*andythenorth is glum
17:11<@Alberth>hmm, how is the libpng of bundles of interest?
17:11<@Alberth>I wouldn't expect libpng to emit lines with sprite numbers
17:12<frosch>andythenorth: libpng 1.2
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17:13<frosch>yeah, those look like nforenum messages
17:13<frosch>do you do custom linking again?
17:13<andythenorth>yes
17:13<andythenorth>I’m sure I fixed this once
17:13<andythenorth>my browser url history is full of links to this stuff
17:14<andythenorth>I am now distracted though by why bundles appears to build everything thrice
17:14<andythenorth>I’m going to ignore that :P
17:15<andythenorth>it has been a week of fighting dependencies and ports, I thought I’d won :)
17:15<andythenorth>wrong
17:19<frosch>start using more chroots and vms
17:19<andythenorth>considered it
17:20<frosch>do you think i messed up my system by installing pyramid and other silly stuff for firs? :p
17:20<andythenorth>seriously, considered vagrant for dev environments
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17:20<andythenorth>it’s considered cheating at work though
17:26*andythenorth strips the bad sRGB profiles with photoshop action
17:26<andythenorth>yay
17:26<andythenorth>quick go to bed andythenorth before anythign else breaks :|
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17:52<supermop>hi
18:00<samu>im coming up with a balanced, and sensible price structure for canals, aqueducks and locks
18:00<samu>aqueducts*
18:00<samu>it also must make sense
18:01<samu>aqueducts have an exponential cost
18:02<samu>the longer it is, the costlier, this complicates things a bit for shorter ones, but it makes sense the way it is for long ones. They are not to be abused
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18:19<supermop>do people abuse canals?
18:19<supermop>i rarely build them
18:19<supermop>when i do its often to decorate the center of some city
18:19<samu>canals, no, though they're still expensive
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18:19<samu>cost is addictive, not exponential for canals
18:20<samu>it's exponential for aqueducts
18:20<samu>i dont wanna make a small aqueducts cheaper than an equivalent in canal tiles
18:20<supermop>in 8 years of playing openttd i don't think i have every built one aquaduct
18:21<samu>i also don't want to make canals so much cheap that they become better means of transportation
18:22<samu>but this exponential thing in aqueducts are complicating my math
18:22<samu>dont want them cheaper than rail or roads for example
18:23<samu>then there's locks, they have a fixed price
18:24<samu>aquaduct of 4 tiles + 2 canal tiles vs 2 locks, 6 tiles
18:25<samu>which one should be more expensive?
18:27<supermop>i dont know depends on what sort of canal you imagine the canals to be
18:27<samu>2 locks in a row take 6 tiles
18:28<samu>first lock lowers 1 level, second lock raises 1 level
18:28<supermop>a small one for small draft boats should be always cheaper to build aquaduct than any amount of locks, a large one for big ships an aquaduct should not even be alowed
18:28<samu>this can be done the same way with aquaduct
18:29<samu>starts with 1 canal tile, then a 4 sized aquaduct, and ends with 1 more canal tile
18:29<samu>which combination should cost more
18:30<samu>there's an advantage with the aquaduct
18:31<samu>under it, it's possible to create some other routes
18:31<samu>roads under aqueduct
18:31<samu>rails
18:31<samu>with the 2 locks, that way is barred
18:34<samu>in theory, the aquaduct method should cost more
18:35<samu>it's just that it quickly becomes too costly the longer they are, if I set it that way
18:40<samu>lock costs are also tied to the cost of 2 canal tiles, since 2 of the tiles are actually canals. part of the total cost comes from canal cost
18:40<samu>eh... confusing
18:43<samu>once i figure a good pricing scheme, i move on to removal costs, and in the end, maintenance costs
18:43<Wolf01>'night all
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20:08<samu>how do i calculate the cost of a tunnel?
20:08<samu>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp#L588
20:09<samu>is the aqueduct a tunnel or a bridge?
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>bridge, obviously
20:18<samu>:) well, okay, but
20:19<samu>what is the formula like
20:20<samu>2 tiles = 2500, 3 tiles = 3750, 4 tiles = 6250, 5 tiles = 8750, 6 tiles = 12500
20:20<samu>I can't follow this patern
20:21<samu>it is nearly exponential, but not quite
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, you have the source, find the calculation...
20:38<samu>okay
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfmvn0rlm <-- i have not checked whether this is correct
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose there's a quadratic formula for this
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, i mean upper-bound-wise
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>to this factor it adds a bit of fuzz for clearing the end tiles, and building foundations
20:53<samu>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_equation
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you probably have no idea how terribly huge an "exponential" function gets
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>if it were a quadratic equation, the delta would increase by the same amount in each step, this delta grows a bit slower, but is not constant
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>so the formula is inbetween linear and quadratic
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>asymptotically
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>might be nlogn, but i'm not checking this at this hour...
20:58<samu>don't worry much
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>i hope you see how the formula works...
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23:53<supermop>hi
---Logclosed Sat Feb 14 00:00:12 2015