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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-17

---Logopened Tue Feb 17 00:00:17 2015
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04:39<chillcore>not safe for work if people around you understand/speak french
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04:46<@Alberth>I don't understand it :)
04:46<chillcore>still nice melody I hope ;)
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04:54<@planetmaker> <-- Alberth that's nmlc's current changelog. Is there anything you think needs doing before it can be released?
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04:55<@Alberth>nice :)
04:56<@Alberth>I wouldn't know, nml & newgrf is still a big mystery to me :)
04:56<@Alberth>frosch would have a better idea about it, probably
04:57<@planetmaker>last evening I found out a new OpenGFX really needs a new NML, no sensible way around. And it can easier be 0.4.0 than 0.3.2
05:00<@Alberth>makes sense :)
05:00<V453000>hy humanz
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07:18<@Alberth>birds-eye view :)
07:24<chillcore>hehe, talking about birds, I have one in the back that likes cookies. This morning it flew down instead of up when opening the door. yay
07:24<chillcore>Don't know what it is called in english. Merel in dutch
07:24<chillcore>so much rewriting to be done still ...
07:25<chillcore>first fixing this crash
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07:28<andythenorth>did I upload Busy Bee on my bananas account, not coop?
07:28<V453000>BURN IN HELL
07:29<andythenorth>I only have a bananas account by accident
07:30<chillcore>imagine what would have happened had you chosen too ... ;)
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07:34<chillcore>andy: about them million USB drives ... would be so I could rip out all these hardrives out of them public computers and have those that have no computers at home bring their own OS and storage?
07:35<chillcore>that weay they can be stupid as much as they want without infecting others
07:35<chillcore>not that I have the money ... nor jurisdiction to do that ...
07:36<chillcore>those that run these pcs can still check traffic ...
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07:37<chillcore>or limit
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07:43<samu>i want to read yesterday's night chat log, forgot what I was going to do today
07:44<samu>broken mind
07:44<samu>found it
07:51<chillcore>Thx andy.
08:32<samu>hmm before advancing into my next step
08:33<samu>which is canal tiles built on top of river tiles to have a different cost than canal tiles built on non-river tiles
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08:33<samu>i need to know how would the game handle destruction of a canal tile that was built on a river tile
08:34<samu>it currently removed all, doesn't revert back to river
08:34<samu>that is, in my opinion, wrong
08:35<chillcore>ared you using buldozer or removal tool?
08:35<samu>there's no remove
08:36<chillcore>ctrl+build click?
08:36<samu>doesn't turn red
08:36<chillcore>a challange ...
08:36<samu>removing isn't implemented on rivers
08:36<samu>oops, canals
08:39<samu>thinking of my future finalized mission, I would have river tiles that are permanent, but terraformable
08:40<samu>have to do this in steps towards that goal
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08:43<samu>i imagine i will have a hell of a job understanding slopes
08:43<samu>and terraform
08:44<chillcore>and rivers :P
08:46<samu>if everything goes as planned, then the final thing to do is dried and watered river tiles, canals, locks, everything related to having water pretty much, and letting water flood up-level
08:46<samu>up-level and down-level
08:47<samu>then, the pricing structure
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08:47<samu>i guess
08:47<samu>and it's done, lel
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09:03<@Alberth>isn't the point of rivers that you cannot change them?
09:03<@Alberth>just like antennas and light houses?
09:04<@Alberth>ie making rivers non-deletable would be a good step
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09:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but then, why allow terraforming water at all?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>also, there may be cases for rerouting rivers, i.e. building a canal and then cutting off the river from its old flow
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i'd much rather have an algorithm that checks whether the river spring is still connected to the sea, and forbid destroying if not
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, same algorithm for city roads being connected to the city center
09:23<@Alberth>gets quite complicated perhaps
09:23<chillcore>maybe just remember that this was a water tile when building canals to restore it in that case only?
09:23<@Alberth>ie you shouldn't be able to destroy the canal
09:24<chillcore>even not if it reverted to river?
09:24<chillcore>i like eddi's idea
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: there should be enough bits available to store whether a canal is used for river flow, to prevent destroying the canal in that case
09:25<@Alberth>chillcore: I was talking about eddi's idea, build a canal around something, destroy the river, and prevent then destroying the canal
09:25<chillcore>if spring destroyed remove 'was river' flag form tiles
09:26<chillcore>ah like that ye that is still a good idea
09:26<chillcore>spring connect to sea whenever and always
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>if destroying a canal/river with the flag set, invoke the pathfinder from the left to the right tile
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>if alternate path found, invert the flag on this alternate path, otherwise, forbid destruction
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09:27<chillcore>then just make those destroyed canals rivers automatically when if it is the last connextion to sea
09:28<chillcore>might get heavy on the patchfinder?
09:28<chillcore>i dunn
09:28<andythenorth>are silly
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>invoking the pathfinder on user interaction shouldn't be significant...
09:30*andythenorth usually just bulldozes rivers
09:30<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's easier not to make them :)
09:31<chillcore>building rivers will then be very expensive too
09:31<chillcore>first yuou needd to build canal then destroy it
09:32<chillcore>only available on feb 29
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: i don't think the player should be able to degrade canals into rivers
09:35<andythenorth>simplest idea
09:35<andythenorth>remove them from the game
09:36<andythenorth>just lower land instead
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you find that this is not simple at all.
09:36<@planetmaker>except on February 30th, of course
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so only when playing with swedish localization in the 1700s? :p
09:37<@planetmaker>dunno, maybe? :)
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>"if halloween falls on a friday the 13th"
09:39<andythenorth>eh, how hard can it be to diff out rivers and canals? o_O
09:39<andythenorth>break savegames
09:39<andythenorth>problem solved
09:40<samu>:) nice chat
09:40<chillcore>it would clean out afterload ... two flies xD
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>can we ban andythenorth? so many problems solved.
09:41<andythenorth>there is no easy reverse diff for andythenorth
09:42<andythenorth>rivers are rubbish currently
09:43<samu>ah, when clearing a river, it clears it of water, but the river foundation stays
09:44<samu>it will re-flood
09:44<samu>in my vision, all rivers will be re-flooded no mater how much you clear them
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>i can't imagine why comments are disabled on this song: (probably NSFW)
09:46<samu>canal tiles won't be terraformable, even if they're built on river
09:46<samu>I imagine the procedure to be like this: remove canal first, then terraform
09:46<andythenorth>I’m really unconvinced that rivers are ‘solvable'
09:47<samu>removing canal will not destroy the river tile, but will revert to river tile
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>samu: then really, why even allow clearing them?
09:47<andythenorth>respawn is problematic
09:47<samu>because of pricing structure
09:47<andythenorth>pathfinding to enforce flow is problematic
09:47<andythenorth>making them immovables is problematic
09:47<samu>must be cheap when clearing dry tiles
09:48*andythenorth considers a hack
09:48<andythenorth>enforcing an edge connection check when clearing
09:48<andythenorth>horrible, pathfinder would be more elegant, but would be simple to understand
09:48<andythenorth>so a river could be moved, but not broken
09:49<andythenorth>an edge connection check (or pathfinder) should be able to enforce that the flow cannot be interrupted
09:50<samu>terraforming a river is the bigger puzzle that i need to solve
09:50<samu>in my head
09:51<samu>in essence, I want the river to be always connected
09:51<andythenorth>enforce that flow cannot be broken
09:51<samu>what can chance is the slope directions
09:52<samu>and drying them of water
09:52<andythenorth>basically I am +lots to Eddi’s suggestion
09:52<andythenorth>we need canals that are not so ugly :P
09:52<samu>typo: what can change* are the slope directions
09:53<@Alberth>samu how do propose to have a slope changed?
09:54<samu>that is part of the puzzle
09:54<@Alberth>since a non-flat, non-steep slope has exactly 2 corners raised at all times
09:54<samu>it needs to know direction, via drag and drop
09:54<andythenorth>also I should make that rivers grf
09:54<andythenorth>with custom corners
09:54<samu>similar to path signals
09:54<andythenorth>so they look less terrible
09:55<andythenorth>and locks should be two tiles
09:55<samu>minimum is 2 tiles
09:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: make a newobject river :p
09:55<andythenorth>and rivers should carve a canyon
09:55<@Alberth>too bad you cannot bridge them :p
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: better locks need state machines
09:55*andythenorth hates rivers
09:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if we live long enough, someone will do your state machines :)
09:55<andythenorth>so many use cases
09:56<samu>terraforming river tiles needs direction, and this is gonna be my headache
09:58<samu>terraform will need some special capability to "mold" a river into a slope direction
09:59<samu>there is no possibility to build a river tile
09:59<samu>but I imagine that's something that I will need, and it's only available for the terraforming tool
09:59<@Alberth>start with drag/drop rivers in the SE ?
09:59<andythenorth>you want river to follow contour?
10:00<andythenorth>so when changing contour, river adapts?
10:00<samu>i mean it like this: raise 2 corner of a flat river tile
10:01<samu>what terraform will do is: destroy the river tile, not just dry it, but remove it, raise those 2 corners, then re-build the river tole as a slope
10:01<samu>river tile*
10:01<samu>demolishing via dynamite however, will only dry the river
10:02<samu>so, this ability to really destroy the river is only for this terraforming specialty
10:02*andythenorth goes back to something else
10:02<andythenorth>but yeah, rivers. Maybe a new class of thing - not immovables, but uninterruptables
10:03<andythenorth>also, why don’t we have glaciers?
10:03<andythenorth>and lava flows?
10:03<@Alberth>/me has disasters disabled
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>samu: i don't think you need to destroy the river tile for that
10:04<samu>and the pricing must also make sense
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>samu: but only allow changing both corners is... problematic
10:05<andythenorth>lava flow might be a disaster
10:05<andythenorth>glacier is just an obstacle :)
10:05<andythenorth>also transport type
10:05*andythenorth has been on that Brewster bus
10:07<samu>changing both corners?
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, we have glaciers in the alps, but not for long anymore :p
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>samu: terraforming is done per corner. so in your "imagination" checking to change one corner requires to check whether the other corner gets changed during the same command at a later time (which may have currently unknown restrictions), and also checking that the other corners will not change
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>so requiring to change two corners is both unweildy from a user's point of view, as well as from a programmers point of view
10:11<samu>ah, I see, it needs to know which direction it is terraforming
10:11<berndj>is there a way to set up bus routes so they don't cross rails? when maglevs get fast enough eventually collisions become inevitable when the train zooms in out of nowhere
10:11<samu>if it knows, then I believe it can work for the remaining tiles, at least in theory, it's just that I'm not really totally sure of it
10:12<andythenorth>berndj: bridges
10:13<berndj>if i provide a road network that's grade-separated and dense enough, is the city guaranteed not to build its own crashy roads?
10:13<V453000>just dont allow towns to build roads, easy enough
10:14*andythenorth wonders how python handles circular refs
10:14<andythenorth>I have a Consist object, which I store in a list in Roster object
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10:14<andythenorth>and the Consist also has the Roster object in a property...
10:15<andythenorth>I know it’s all references, but still
10:15<andythenorth>seems like an easy route to infinite recursion
10:15<andythenorth>or is that ‘programmer beware'?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>berndj: busses avoid level crossings, if a nearby route does not have any. and you can forbid towns from building level crossings
10:16*chillcore hides from anything that has exceptions
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>berndj: also, fast railtypes can forbid level crossings, if the NewGRF chooses to do so
10:16<berndj>ah, if i can find that setting then i'll just use that - it feels undemocratic to not allow them to build at all
10:16<@Alberth>andythenorth: sounds fine to me, except perhaps some consistency problems
10:18<@Alberth>circular references are handled fine in newer pythons, since python 2.<ages-ago>
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>circular references are sometimes an issue with garbage collection.
10:19<@Alberth>if worried, just remove the list reference
10:20<samu>dragging signals works
10:21<samu>something similar will be needed for this
10:21<samu>dragging corners
10:21<@Alberth>dragging signals?
10:22<@Alberth>I usually drag just 2-3 tiles
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you can already do that
10:23<samu>to decide which direction to terraform a specific river tile, it must know the direction at which it will slope the river
10:23<@Alberth>dragging road is more similar, imho
10:23<samu>ah yeh, road yes
10:23<samu>they have one-way
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>that will probably not help you at all
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>you should better invest your time into removing the restriction of rivers needing both corners raised in a slope
10:26<samu>but there are no graphics for that
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, but they could be made
10:33<samu>it would simplify terraform, I see
10:33<@planetmaker>getting those river sprites for the other slopes is not *that* difficult
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>needs potentially a bit of fuzz for legacy NewGRFs
10:35*andythenorth would draw them for TTD base set style
10:35<andythenorth>I drew all the other bloody river sprites for the base set :)
10:35<andythenorth>in all the variations :P
10:35<andythenorth>drew / fixed
10:36<samu>is water painted onto a river tile?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's all one sprite
10:36<samu>crap :(
10:36<andythenorth>it’s many many sprites :P
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, potentially the shores are drawn on top of a water sprite
10:39<samu>how does the snow gets painted in a river
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>no idea. actually
10:40<samu>don't paint water, paint ice
10:40<samu>if on snow
10:41<samu>i don't wanna draw
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>flowing rivers don't freeze that easily
10:41<samu>it shouldn't be painting a brown thingy if it's dry though
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i still have no idea what you need dry rivers for
10:43<samu>ok, back to yesterday
10:43<samu>i have something to finish
10:45<samu>+glx told me i have to improve this coding block static void ChangeTileOwner_Water(TileIndex tile, Owner old_owner, Owner new_owner)
10:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so uninterruptables? Simple pathfinder check?
10:48<andythenorth>can’t be much more sophisticated than the ship routing check on adding orders
10:48<andythenorth>is there any pathological case where a river has two outlets to the sea?
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>a delta.
10:49*andythenorth wonders if there is no routing check on adding orders
10:49<andythenorth>maybe it’s just crow-flies distance to next bouy / dock
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>the order check is manhattan distance, probably
10:50<andythenorth>where many rivers converge, the pathfinder could spend a lot of time evaluating dead ends
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the way i imagine it, a river gets (on map generation, scenario editor might need some handling of this as well) a spring and a sink assigned, and every tile in a pathfinder run between them gets a flag set that this river tile is part of a flow (potentially with direction)
10:51<@planetmaker>not sure that the sink needs assignment a priori
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>if a river converges with another one, the pathfinder stops at this converging point
10:51<andythenorth>so it’s cached, rather than checked on bulldoze?
10:52<andythenorth>if tile knew next tile(s), then it’s just a list
10:52<andythenorth>and the list can’t be broken
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, each tile has exactly 4 adjacent tiles
10:53<andythenorth>hrm multiprocessing really does break object refs
10:54<andythenorth>urgh, does mercurial actually feature revert?
10:55<@planetmaker>of course
10:55<@planetmaker>hg revert (for uncommitted); hg backout (for committed some time ago)
10:56<andythenorth>ah backout :)
10:56<@Alberth>hg rollback for undoing the last commit-ish action
10:56<andythenorth>searching for revert just got me pages of people who haven’t pushed yet :P
10:56<@planetmaker>Alberth, with evolve there's hg uncommit ;)
10:57<@planetmaker>or you could hg qimport the last changeset
10:57<@planetmaker>many roads to Rome
10:58*andythenorth uses backout
10:58<andythenorth>see if that works :P
10:58<andythenorth>that = Iron Horse broken compile
10:59<samu>a river slope blocks pathing for ships
11:00<samu>no matter what
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>samu: so?
11:01<samu>i don't know about the pathfinding
11:01<samu>what I observe is that it needs a lock
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinding is heavily customizable in that matter
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. a river flow pathfinder can have much different restrictions than a ship pathfinder
11:03<samu>so there must be two
11:03<samu>one for water, one for ships
11:05<samu>i thought water flooding behaviour was already done
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>water flooding does not have (or need) a pathfinder
11:08<samu>it needs to check the next tile adjacent to it, if it can flood it or not, and how to transform that tile when it floods, I guess
11:09<andythenorth>that’s just ‘next tile’
11:09<andythenorth>no pathfinder really
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>samu: there would be no flooding in my suggestion
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>samu: just a search for an alternate connection that already is water
11:10<samu>coast tiles are transformed a little bit
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>that has no connection to the problem...
11:10<samu>every river will become "coasts"-alike, except how they're drawn
11:11<samu>i think
11:11<samu>but i'm not expert on that matter
11:11*andythenorth whips the horse a bit
11:13<@planetmaker> <-- that will happen, andythenorth ;)
11:16<andythenorth>apparently I broke it
11:16<andythenorth>bundles is cross with me
11:18*andythenorth looks at Jenkins
11:22<andythenorth>yeah, it’s going to fail on the failing commit :P
11:23<andythenorth>it hasn’t built the 2 most recent
11:23<samu>will this subtract 1 water maintenance to the owner_none?
11:23<samu>ah the lines 39-41
11:25<samu>i guess not
11:26<samu>damn i forgot what I had to do
11:30<samu>DoCommand(tile, 0, 0, DC_EXEC | DC_BANKRUPT, CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR);
11:30<samu>what's a do comand
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11:31<samu>the tile bankrupts?
11:31<andythenorth>company bankrupts
11:31<andythenorth>dunno what that actually relates to though
11:31<samu>it destroys a ship depot on bankrupt
11:32<samu>it is pointing to tile
11:32<@planetmaker>I can try look later, andythenorth. But no promise I manage today
11:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think it’s just failed to build on push
11:33<andythenorth>oh actually no
11:33<andythenorth>1083: Codechange: move to a python 3 compile (experimental)
11:33<andythenorth>will be the offender :)
11:34*andythenorth forgot about bundles python version
11:34<andythenorth>FIRS may have same issue
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>samu: the command that it executes is the last parameter of DoCommand(P)
11:36<andythenorth>ah no, FIRS has a branch for python 3, so default branch still builds
11:36<andythenorth>ho ho
11:36<andythenorth>‘progress’ :)
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>samu: before that are the "flags", which usually means DC_EXEC: actually do it (don't just check how much it costs). DC_BANKRUPT probably means don't let lack of money prevent it
11:38<samu>ah, makes sense now
11:41<samu>how could I tell the game is doing the right thing for the old_owner if this company bankrupts
11:42<samu>i have no way to visualize it in-game
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11:48<samu>bug or intended? start a game via Play scenario, then type in console restart. it doesn't restart that scenario
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, it starts a new game with the same random seed as the old game
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>that may or may not result in the same map, depending on other circumstances (like game version, settings, newgrfs, ...)
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12:10<samu>doo dee
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>dabadee dabadai
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12:11<samu>i'm confused at my own code lol
12:12<samu>i threw it in, and it works
12:12<samu>but i can't verify if it works for every case
12:12<samu>how do I play as the owner_none, if that is even possible
12:14<@planetmaker>you can't. owner_none is the game itself
12:16<samu>i rather ask
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12:17<samu>i have the code like this
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you can make tests like that by setting a breakpoint, and wait for the program to go through that line of code, then single step and watch what the variables do
12:19<samu>i forgot
12:20<samu>if (!IsTileOwner(tile, old_owner)) return;
12:20<samu>what does this mean
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>that means skip tiles that are not owned by old_owner
12:21<@Alberth>that's why have generated documentation samu, there are tooooo many functions to know them all
12:21<@Alberth>so you can look up what functions do
12:22<samu>old_owner must be a company? or can it also be a no_owner?
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
12:24<@Alberth>don't know either
12:24<@Alberth>read the source code :)
12:26<chillcore>hmm if I allow changing values in scenarioeditor like in r27151 ... I do not need that _game_mode hack no more?
12:26<@planetmaker>what values?
12:27<chillcore>smoothness ... for starters ...
12:27<chillcore>just smoothness for now
12:27<chillcore>i go into menu mode change and back to SE mode
12:27<@planetmaker>smoothness is a thing used during map gen... thus it's pointless when there's already a map. But it makes sense to allow setting those in SE when you're about to generate a map
12:28<chillcore>^^^ that ... i need to be able to change or this patch is pretty much useles haha
12:28<chillcore>just that that hack is ugly
12:29<chillcore>just the diffuculty setting though noy so for the params
12:30<samu>i think +glx is wrong on this, or i don't see what he meant
12:32<samu>there are two ways to transfer ownership. Bankrupt and company merge. I always have to subtract watermaintenance no matter the case
12:32<samu>why do i have to do it per case'
12:32<andythenorth>not many translator commits in FIRS :P
12:34<samu>subtract once, no matter the case, then if it's a merge, add once
12:34<samu>if it's a bankrupt... leave it be
12:35<samu>or am i missing the point?
12:36<samu>what am i doing wrong, can you help
12:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: change more strings :p
12:38<samu>this was correct already, and now it's not
12:38<samu>unless I'm missing something
12:39<samu>let me show you my two versions
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12:42<samu>today's version ->
12:42<samu>yesterday's version ->
12:44<samu>which one is correct? or are they both doing the same?
12:44<chillcore>Alberth I edited two pictures in my last post. thoughts?
12:45<chillcore>that one still has a very still slope I know ... more shape of terrain there
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12:46<chillcore>that is at level 199
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12:48<@Alberth>the detailed one looks quite useless?
12:48<chillcore>with our without smallmap? the one without has the wwhole map like that ... almost no steaap slopes
12:49<chillcore>IIRC. there is a lot of finetuning left i agree
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12:50<@Alberth>without smallmap
12:50<chillcore> it is stiil rough yes
12:51<@Alberth>you're generating a world, zooooming to a specific spot is probably less useful
12:51<@Alberth>(although no doubt there are users claiming the opposite :) )
12:52<chillcore>prob is when I start toying with that I get mesmerized and no much coding happens :P
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12:53<chillcore>in the end it is still simply going up yes, but you sometimes have to think wat route to take because the terrain is hardly terraformable
12:53<chillcore>once towns and industries come into play
12:53<@Alberth>oh, toying has its merits too :)
12:53<chillcore>industries create flats, which causes terraforming
12:54<@Alberth>maybe we need other terraforming tools too now
12:54<chillcore>so they create and inaccesible side sometimes
12:54<chillcore>yes ... still a few niggles
12:54<@Alberth>ie 16 levels high is quite doable by raising a single point
12:54<chillcore>need shortening save load code
12:54<chillcore>and loading presets
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12:55<chillcore>probably yes
12:55<samu>glx: hi
12:55<chillcore>but for trunk I think these presets have priority
12:55<chillcore>bugs me that peeps see that terrain as default
12:56<chillcore>as custom it is your choice
12:56<chillcore>anyhoo ... removing ugly hack
12:57<samu>i am in need of help
13:00<chillcore><Alberth> ie 16 levels high is quite doable by raising a single point <- unless you are raising a really really long slope
13:00<chillcore>then it hangs a bit ... at least it used to
13:01<chillcore>unless you want to build a pyramide ... that does not happen much
13:03<samu>glx, yesterday night you told me that I had to fix transfer ownership. today i look into it but i think there's nothing to fix
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13:05<frosch123>[18:28] <chillcore> ^^^ that ... i need to be able to change or this patch is pretty much useles haha <- there is a difference between "current game" settings, and "new game" settings
13:05<frosch123>you can change smoothness for "new game" settings, but it is pointless for "current game" settings
13:06<chillcore>if I try to change smoothness settinh without my hack the game happily crashes
13:07<+glx>samu: it's not a fix, but an optimisation
13:07<chillcore>I did not yet try after adding the SE flag
13:07<samu>00:05:16 <+glx> maybe you could merge the tests in ChangeOwner
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>samu: the + is not acually prt of the nick :p
13:09<chillcore>frosh: when you generate a new scnewrio you stat from scratch and the difficulty is changed
13:09<+glx>yes you have an if (is_lock_middle) followed by an if (canal && is_lock_middle)
13:09<chillcore>but while messing wwith my gui the "game" has already started
13:09<@planetmaker>difficulty is a deprecated thing. It can't be different than 'custom' (=3?)
13:10<chillcore>in a later stage the game is restarted again and that is fine, setting are kept
13:11<chillcore>in my gui yes
13:11<chillcore>not in the game
13:11<chillcore>I load them in defaults
13:11<chillcore>in custom I mean
13:11<samu>aha, i think i understand what you mean, ok let me edit it
13:12<chillcore>but for as far as the code is concerned if you select eg smooth and not change nothing you are not in custom mode for that setting
13:12<chillcore>think ... score
13:12<chillcore>it is disconnected somewhat
13:13<chillcore>hmm how do I explain this ...
13:13<chillcore>in tgen gui all is custom ... if settings match easy ... difficulty remains easy in score
13:15<chillcore>I kept that behaviour intact ... i hope
13:15<frosch123>there is no difficulty setting anymore that affects smoothness
13:15<chillcore>hmm ok
13:16<samu>here it is
13:17<frosch123>savegame version 177 removes the difficulty level
13:17<+glx>samu: yes, but you forgot the new one :)
13:18<samu>new one?
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13:19<+glx>3 lines later
13:19<andythenorth>bloody garratts :)
13:19*andythenorth is having issues with articulated engines
13:20<frosch123>are they better than issues with liveries?
13:20<samu>ah, this part? if (GetWaterClass(tile) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL && is_lock_middle) {
13:20<andythenorth>frosch123: yes, they are :P
13:20<chillcore>frosh only 2.5k revisions ago eh ... :P
13:21<andythenorth>just wrong length sprites, with wrong offsets
13:21<samu>it needs to be inside the if (new_owner != INVALID_OWNER) {
13:21<+glx>but you can do the same thing
13:24<samu>oh yah, i am idiot, it was right between these 2
13:24<samu>ok let me do
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* you can't skip songs on the radio
13:28<+glx>alignment ;)
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>is that just me or should canals be not removed upon bankrupcy, because they are common infrastructure (like roads)?
13:33<samu>they're not removed already
13:33<+glx>they are not removed, they get OWNER_NONE
13:33<@planetmaker>frosch123, I meant to ask you: anything you want to see done before nml 0.4.0?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>then that comment is probably misleading
13:34<@planetmaker>I need it for OpenGFX-next
13:34<frosch123>- Feature: Cache position where previous search ended for more speed. <- what's that?
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>/* Only subtract from the old owner here if the new owner is valid,otherwise we clear ship depots and canal water below. */
13:34<@planetmaker>frosch123, check commit logs. Dunno :)
13:34<frosch123>not english, is it? :p
13:34<+glx>depot is removed
13:34<+glx>but canal stay
13:34<@planetmaker>probably your own words ;)
13:35<frosch123>anyway, i have nothing that needs to make 0.4 or something
13:35<frosch123>not sure how much work you want to put into the changelog
13:35<frosch123>but it has a lot of redundancy
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: in english, word order is probably a bit more relevant than in german :p
13:36<samu>where is the dock being removed in the code?
13:37<chillcore>is it? Fun are words when mangled much.
13:37<samu>is it a station?
13:38<frosch123>planetmaker: no, by albert
13:38<frosch123>still no idea what it is, even after looking at the diff :p
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: well, "die katze beißt der hund" means something different than "the cat bites the dog" :p
13:39<+glx>it's a station yes
13:39<samu>docks disappear but I don't see it in this part of the code
13:39<@planetmaker>frosch123, I think something with the position attached to each line (which also is reported in case of errors)
13:39<samu>is it somewhere else?
13:39<@planetmaker>thus data usually not exposed from internal structures
13:39<+glx>it's somewhere in station_cmd.cpp I think
13:39<samu>ah, ok then
13:40<@planetmaker>but ok, thanks. I'll then try to come up with a release in the next days.
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: in german you can flip around subject and object of the sentence, should you want to put more emphasis on the object. in english you can't do that
13:40<@planetmaker>Not sure I want to spend much time on the changelog. What I pasted was mostly automatically gathered with very limited manual retouching
13:41<@planetmaker>However I updated man page and readme
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: because english got rid of the cases that designate which word is the object, and puts this semantics into the word order
13:42<chillcore>I see. eddi
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>(although in german it can get ambiguous, too, if both words are female)
13:45<@planetmaker>neuter, too
13:45<chillcore>I can hardly understand the peeps i my own country, I doubt I would notive the difference :P
13:45<chillcore>still intersting though
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: the difference is the article. "die katze [object] beißt der hund [subject]" vs. "die katze [subject] beißt den hund [object]"
13:54<frosch123>now explain "die katze beißt die giraffe"
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>i did that already
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>if both words are female [or neutral], you also have to rely on word order in german
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13:56<frosch123>sounds sexist
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>the reverse order is also pretty rare
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13:59<@Alberth>hi hi
14:05<Wolf01>bah, why people don't remember they own email addresses and use MINE to do their stuff FOR MONTHS and they won't change also if you notice them?
14:05<frosch123>s/people/your girlfriend/
14:07<frosch123>though, grandpa would also work
14:07<Wolf01>in my case is a guy with the same name who lives in another city and we don't know each other...
14:07<chillcore>hmm contact your email provider?
14:07<chillcore>first come first serve?
14:08<frosch123>ah, you mean they registered your address somewhere
14:08<chillcore>depends who it is yes ... google
14:08<frosch123>i thought they hacked your account to use it to send mails :)
14:08<Wolf01>the problem is they put the wrong address in outlook or such
14:08<chillcore>it should not be possible ...
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14:09<Wolf01>if you set that as "reply to" address, yes, it is
14:10<frosch123>well, someone registered my ottd address to some archaeology conference :)
14:10<frosch123>possibly a pun about the ottd code/interface :p
14:10<Pici>Attend as that person then.
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14:11<Wolf01>when somebody register your address to a service, you should be able to unsubscribe or at least dissable the account (as I did multiple times with facebook and the other "game" address)
14:11<Wolf01>the problem is when they use it in their cliend and use it for their job
14:12<frosch123>na, always ignore unknown mails, put them in a filter, don't answer
14:12<Wolf01>so you also get lots of reserved stuff, notify them, still get lots of reserved stuff
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14:16<samu>i need to know what I can do about how would the game handle destruction of a canal tile that was built on a river tile
14:17<abc>Am I right for asking a question to OpenTTD here?
14:17<samu>more specificaly, i need authorization
14:18<frosch123>sometimes this channel is about openttd
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14:18<chillcore><frosch123> na, always ignore unknown mails, put them in a filter, don't answer <- +1
14:19<samu>can i change the way demolish works for river tiles?
14:19<samu>oops, canal tiles
14:20<frosch123>though i have special folder for very authentic fake mails
14:20<frosch123>i like spam/scam, if it is done good :p
14:21<chillcore>first you need to store 'river' tiles ... then everytime you demolish a canal compare tot that list samu
14:21<frosch123>same as ads really, they are fine if they are good :)
14:21<abc>i use OpenTTD version 1.4.4 and I am not able to find the option to build more than one industry of the same kind in a city in the extended options. (sorrx if my English is bad)
14:21<abc>where can I find this option?
14:22<frosch123>there are some filter options in the settings window
14:22<frosch123>make sure to select "all settings"
14:22<chillcore>needs digging in the code and compiling
14:22<abc>where can I select "all settings"?
14:22<frosch123>dropdown at the top
14:23<samu>let me look at river
14:25<abc>if you refer to chillcore: Where do I find the code and how can I compile it? I'm an IT-noob only wanting to play a nice game :(
14:25<@Alberth>samu: ?
14:26<chillcore>I was talking to samu abc. sorry for the confusion
14:26<abc>oh, OK
14:27<abc>can frosch123 answer my question?
14:28<chillcore> since you asked. ;)
14:28<chillcore>have fun paying ;)
14:28<frosch123> <- abc
14:28<chillcore>playing* woops
14:30<@Alberth>chillcore: unable to read Temp_Adjust_API.diff <-- removed it from the patch set, but not from series?
14:31<chillcore>hmm let me check the zip ...I may have forgotten that one
14:31<chillcore>it should be fine without though
14:33<abc>frosch123, thank you for the link it was a great solution. sorry chillcore, this was to hard for me. I didn't realized the dropdown button at "Show" could be the solution. Now it works
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14:35<chillcore>Alberth: uploaded
14:35-!-abc [] has left #openttd [Leaving]
14:35<@Alberth>should I try that one instead?
14:36<chillcore>just stick the temp file it in you patches folder
14:36<chillcore>if there is one ... it should be the same
14:37<chillcore>I did not add widgets yet so
14:37<@Alberth>I did rm *.diff :p
14:37<chillcore>it is the third attachment in my last post
14:37<chillcore>or adjust series .. as you wwish
14:38<chillcore>there is no ai/scripts using smoothness? yet :P
14:38<chillcore>I made it to be sure as moki was using NewGRF ..
14:39<@Alberth>that shouldn't crash worldgen, as there are no newgrfs at that stage
14:40<chillcore>unless someone has a mofified menugame?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>menu game cannot use NewGRFs
14:40<@Alberth>windowy stuff is quite free of newgrf-specifics, except for the newgrf window :)
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>the menu game is loaded before the game can find NewGRFs
14:41<chillcore>less worries then
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>[the only way to fix this is to run the NewGRF search on a black background]
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>there is one exception: ActionF (town name) NewGRFs get activated on the menu, to get the entries into the dropdown selection
14:42<chillcore>I had to move my data folder because of that ... grrr
14:42<frosch123>except it is half broken for 2 years :p
14:42<frosch123>well, actually for 5 years
14:42<chillcore>a few GB takes a bit
14:43<frosch123>since 1.0 :)
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14:43<chillcore>then again ... if I am just playing i care less
14:44<chillcore>start game ... grab coffee ...
14:44<chillcore>when testeing it is another story hehe
14:45<@Alberth>grab tgen zip, put in patch directory, hit make, start chatting :p
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: could you specify "it"?
14:45<chillcore>I hope I fixed it ...
14:46<frosch123>fs#5819 - townname newgrfs fail to activate if the titlegame is a post 0.6 titlegame
14:46<frosch123>i.e. it works in nightlies, but fails in all stable releases :p
14:48<frosch123>we should adjust the rules for the titlegame competition
14:48<frosch123>savegames may not be made with ottd newer than 0.4
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
14:48<frosch123>(i believe it is 0.4, not 0.6, it must be from before newgrf were stored in the savegame)=
14:49<chillcore>creatief met kurk ... sounds good frosch
14:50<samu>can i build ship depots on canals owned by competitors?
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14:50<samu>let me check
14:51<@Alberth>chillcore: it fails to crash with me, so that's good :p
14:51<@Alberth>no idea what to do with the numbers though
14:51<chillcore>picj somethings as first
14:51<chillcore>then the next is half the aplitude
14:52<chillcore>so for staying flat you go
14:52<chillcore>1000, 2000
14:52<chillcore>try to keep your values in a range of 2
14:53<@Alberth>what I mean, it's not in user terms "more height", or "less water", or so
14:53<chillcore>your pick ...
14:53<@Alberth>but maybe that's not feasible with these parameters
14:53<@Alberth>hmm, let me try again
14:53<chillcore>I usually go for littlest water, no or little variation
14:53<@Alberth>I press "generate", the map is all wrong
14:54<@Alberth>now, which number to change?
14:54<chillcore>hmm ...
14:54<chillcore>it depends what you want ...
14:54<@Alberth>you know, because you understand the meaning of the numbers
14:55<chillcore>I do not see your screen ... hehe
14:55<samu>allow-drive through road stops on roads owned by competitors
14:55<@Alberth>but as I said, maybe it's not possible to make it more user oriented
14:55<chillcore>hmm how to eplain this ...
14:55<chillcore>set everything to 1
14:55<chillcore>mapsize 2048 squared
14:56<@Alberth>write a wiki page is probably the solution here :)
14:56<chillcore>heightlevel 199 or so
14:56<chillcore>it is hard to explain
14:56<@Alberth>there you have room to explain things
14:56<chillcore>you have to see it
14:56<@Alberth>but once the patch is done, imho
14:56<samu>I might need a "allow water structure stuff on canals owned by competitors" setting
14:56<samu>unsure yet
14:56<chillcore>yeah that sound good
14:57<chillcore>for now set scale to max
14:57<chillcore>rest to 1 and generate
14:57<chillcore>then start making your way down
14:58<chillcore>1 by 1 ann see how that influenceds things
14:58<chillcore>maybe try to find some nice seed first
14:58<chillcore>with default values
14:59<chillcore>then keep seed ... while making our way through
14:59<chillcore>limit yourself to a factor of two up or down
14:59<chillcore>taking into account that the next value is halved
15:00<+glx><frosch123> well, someone registered my ottd address to some archaeology conference :) <-- oh mine too
15:00<samu>how many owners can there be for a single tile?
15:00<chillcore>it becomes obvious real quick
15:00<chillcore>but you go out of bounds real quick too
15:00<chillcore>them flats and steep cliffs
15:01<chillcore>I believe safe would be 1.4 up max and 2 down
15:01<@Alberth> I need a little more practice I think :)
15:01<chillcore>^^^ factors, but don't pin me on that
15:02<samu>is it possible to have 3 owners on a single tile at all?
15:02<@Alberth>what does "keep" mean, isn't that "ok", or "close" or so?
15:02<frosch123>glx: it does not include a flight ticket though :)
15:02<chillcore>hehe up the scale a bit if you can
15:02<+glx>indeed :)
15:02<chillcore>that or lower first parameter followed by rest
15:03<chillcore>Keep closes this gui and opens worldgen
15:03<@Alberth>chillcore: it's ok, I don't have time for real experimentation now, will try another day
15:03<samu>upper lock tile: owner 1, canal under upper lock tile: owner 2, bridge over upper lock tile: owner 3, is this possible?
15:03<chillcore>no problem ;)
15:03<chillcore>thank for testing anyway, much aprecciated
15:04<samu>and possibly a 4th owner, river tile under canal tile under upper lock tile under bridge
15:04<chillcore>one more bug ticked of the list yay
15:05<samu>tell me
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15:06<samu>is this an impossible request?
15:06<chillcore>multiple owners of the same object ... that gonna be fun
15:07<frosch123>roal tiles can have up to 3 owners
15:07<frosch123>1 for road, 1 for tram, 1 for additional structure (like rail crossing, bridge, ...)
15:07<chillcore>read: with infrastucture sharing I do not mind you running on my rails, I'd rather you not move them ...
15:07<samu>i guess the answer is yes
15:08<chillcore>yeah like that
15:09<samu>there's no possibility to build a bridge over the upper lock tile right now, i ask why
15:10<samu>was it because nobody thought of it, or is there some technical issue
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15:11<samu>with enough bridge height, it could even be possible to build over the lower and middle lock tiles
15:12<samu>so, can i do this?
15:13<samu>start messing with game code to make this happen?
15:13<samu>and pester you for help :p
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>samu: look at how the code allows bridges over objects?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>"objects" being the eyecandy objects that NewGRFs provide
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15:21<NGC3982>One of my servers are filled up with this:
15:21<NGC3982>I cannot join the unnamed company, and the log does not fortell of any unnamed user or company being created
15:21<NGC3982>Did i somehow configure this myself?
15:24*NGC3982 should have Googled first.
15:24<frosch123>what's the answer?
15:25<frosch123>are they ais?
15:26<NGC3982>Yeah, i managed to enable ai_in_multiplayer without an actual AI present.
15:26<NGC3982>That's why i should never copy my local openttd.cfg to the server one.
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15:34<samu>can you guys test this patch?
15:35<samu>or how I submit it? is it
15:35<samu>i don't consider it finalized though
15:37<samu>the pricing structure for the lock makes "better" sense, but it's still not totally perfect
15:39<chillcore>post it on the forums while perfecting it?
15:39<samu>forum? i can't
15:39<chillcore>not sure if FS is supposed to be used for developing patches ...
15:39<chillcore>why not samu?
15:39<chillcore>you are still locked out of your account?
15:39<samu>i need my account to be unbanned
15:39<samu>yes unlocked
15:39<chillcore>I see ... I know what happened not going to explain here
15:40<chillcore>contact orudge
15:40<@Alberth>I am sure we don't want non-finished patches at FS
15:41<samu>orudge: hi
15:41<samu>i doubt he will unlock it
15:41<chillcore>yes he will but you need to contact him privatly
15:41<chillcore>I can send him a reminder np ... but first contact him yourself
15:41<chillcore>it is your account not mine
15:44<samu>here on irc
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15:44<chillcore>tt-forums support iss not here no samu
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15:46<samu>this chat is in the forum
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15:47<chillcore>ye but you do not ask for a account restore ina chat do you now?
15:47<chillcore>email him?
15:47<frosch123>chillcore: he closed the tab
15:48<andythenorth>urgh, broken offsets
15:48*andythenorth will defer that until another day
15:48<chillcore>ok ... new account then?
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15:49<samu>#tycoon ?
15:49<samu>who's that bukkit guy?
15:52<samu>i give up
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16:40<l4urenz>haven't been on irc for years
16:40<l4urenz>but saw that openttd had its own chat xD
16:41<frosch123>well, there are like 10 openttd related channels
16:41<l4urenz>the website only mentioned this one :)
16:42<frosch123>let's call it the newbie channel then :p
16:42<frosch123>or is it the gate to trap you in the ottd hell?
16:43<frosch123>where you have to build tracks all day?
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16:45<l4urenz>thats more like a bonus i guess :)
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>say that again when you're still here in 10 years :p
16:45<frosch123>l4urenz: that's the trick :) until you read the fineprint about backseat gamers
16:46<l4urenz>used to be on quakenet wayback
16:46<l4urenz>but thats pretty much dead
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose the kiddies are not introduced to irc anymore
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>too much new social media
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>or online games have their own chats
16:49<l4urenz>exactly. its more like fb messenger
16:55<chillcore>goodnight all
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17:22<samu>:( i'm going back to pricing canal tiles
17:26<ST2>dnt think, play BusyBee :P
17:26<samu>void MakeWaterKeepingClass(TileIndex tile, Owner o)
17:28<samu>my brain is stuck atm
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17:30<samu>* Only river water should be restored on appropriate slopes. Other water would be invalid on slopes */
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17:36<samu>ah, the game restores rivers via this void MakeWaterKeepingClass(TileIndex tile, Owner o)?
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17:39<samu> this comment: If we clear the canal, we have to remove it from the infrastructure count as well.
17:39<samu>but there is no way to clear canals, only demolish canal
17:41<samu>MakeWaterKeepingClass - must understand what is this for
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17:59<samu>question: Money base_cost = IsCanal(tile) ? _price[PR_CLEAR_CANAL] : _price[PR_CLEAR_WATER];
17:59<samu>what does ? do in thhis
17:59<samu>it picks one of the prices?
18:01<samu>what is being decided there?
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18:08<samu>question: Money base_cost = IsCanal(tile) ? _price[PR_CLEAR_CANAL] : _price[PR_CLEAR_WATER];
18:08<samu>do you know what that ? do?
18:08<samu>? symbol
18:08<samu>and the :
18:10<supermop>no idea
18:12<samu>is it deciding one of the prices for the base cost?
18:13<samu>ok, it is
18:13<samu>just tested in-game
18:22<+glx>it's the ?: operator
18:23<+glx>it's a simple if then else with assignation
18:26<@planetmaker>the ternary operator is nice. And a bitch. At the same time :)
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19:39<samu>if (IsTileType(tile, MP_WATER) && (!IsTileOwner(tile, OWNER_WATER) || wc == WATER_CLASS_SEA)) continue;.
19:40<samu>what is ||
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19:47*Pici blinks
19:50<supermop>should i make the bellows joints between tram cars short little vehicles or just draw as part of the main cars? I've done one tram one way, and another the other
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 18 00:00:18 2015