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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-18

---Logopened Wed Feb 18 00:00:18 2015
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02:40<chillcore><Alberth> no idea what to do with the numbers though
02:40<chillcore>albert think of it like shaking a sheet
02:41<chillcore>you take a corner and give it a whip
02:41<chillcore>hem ripples ...
02:41<chillcore>th first value is the largest
02:41<chillcore>then you take second sheet and whip it again
02:42<chillcore>half the aplitude and the waves ar two times shorter in lenght
02:42<chillcore>meld them
02:42<chillcore>thake the third ... rince repeat
02:42<chillcore>I don't think I can explain it easier
02:43<chillcore>that makes sence?
02:43<chillcore>that means that you can esily surpress the first three values too ...
02:43<chillcore>then the forth will have way more influence
02:44<chillcore>you gotta be lucky yoo with seed ...
02:44<chillcore>gosh spelling ...
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02:48<chillcore>alberth: just like with sheets ... if you shake too hard and the thig shoots off ... somewhere
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06:23<Xaroth|Work>oh ?
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07:57<samu>i'm going to do what albert told me
07:57<samu>add comments everywhere
08:37<samu>i have a question
08:37<samu>if (GetWaterClass(tile) != WATER_CLASS_CANAL) {
08:38<samu>what is the difference between WATER_CLASS_CANAL and WATER_CLASS_RIVER
08:39<samu>I've tested with both, and it appears to work either way
08:39<samu>can a tile be both classes at the same time?
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08:46<samu>here, at line 9:
08:47<samu>I tried WATER_CLASS_CANAL and WATER_CLASS_RIVER and it works either way when loading and saving
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09:07<samu>who can help me understand ?
09:08<@planetmaker>the difference is what type of water it is. Differently drawn. Different owners
09:09<@planetmaker>however there's no NewGRF which displays the water differently for canals or rivers - even though it's possible to do so
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09:15<samu>hmm, let me see if i understand. when the game checks that tile on load, it will only add +1 to water maintenance if the class of that tile is not ...
09:15<samu>for my purpose the logical answer would be RIVER
09:16<samu>but it works with canal as well... strange
09:17<samu>if the lock is built on bare land, does it become canal?
09:18<samu>class canal?
09:18<samu>let me look at the opposite way
09:21<samu>when the game checks that tile, i want it to decide if it adds +1 to water maintenance or not, based upon where it was built
09:21<samu>if built on a river, don't add +1
09:22<samu>if built on bare land, add +1
09:22<samu>this is what I believe to be the possible outcomes of that check
09:22<samu>am I missing something?
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09:30<samu>something is flawed here
09:30<samu>either my undertanding or...
09:32<samu>i'm leaving it as WATER_CLASS_RIVER
09:32<samu>but my doubt persists
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11:17<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:36<samu>i've added comments today -
11:37<samu>can you check out if they're clear enough to understand?
11:38<@Alberth>73-75 can be merged together onto one line
11:40<@Alberth>In general, comment like x = 1; // Give x the value 1 is useless, people can read code
11:40<@Alberth>You should not repeat what the code says, but instead *why* you do what you do (ie why is the code there, what case does it handle?)
11:41<@Alberth> // extra count. <-- that does not clarify anything for me
11:41<samu>all of them?
11:42<samu>it's a maintenance counting
11:42<@Alberth>Well, I can see you do counting, I want to know why it's there
11:43<@Alberth>line 93 is an example of comment explaining why some code isn't there
11:43<@Alberth>return cost; // final cost for this command <-- you can safely delete this comment :)
11:43<samu>I don't know what to write at that part
11:44<samu>at the last part, line 93 below
11:44<@Alberth>line 64 seems good comment, except you probably better merge it with the comment at line 63
11:45<@Alberth>Also, comment is English sentences, start with an upper case letter, and end with a dot
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11:45<@Alberth>wb andy
11:46<@Alberth>54 dependable variable I have no idea what that means
11:46<samu>dunno what to call it
11:47<samu>it's going to add a cost based on a check
11:47<samu>or it's not
11:48<@Alberth>it doesn't need comment imho
11:48<@Alberth>if code is clear already, no need to add comments
11:48<samu>hmm in the original code that line didn't exist
11:48<samu>or, well it existed at the bottom
11:49<@Alberth>afaik we have a 'cost' variable all over the code
11:49<@Alberth>so nothing 'new' :)
11:49<@Alberth>line 32, shouldn't it be just above line 37 ?
11:50<@Alberth>empty line between 11 and 12 ?
11:51<samu>hmm looks like i'm a terrible commenter
11:52<samu>i added those comments in relation to a previous version
11:52<@Alberth>84/85 can also be removed
11:52<@Alberth>no, you need to get used to commenting
11:53<@Alberth>most people that are not so experienced write comments just like you
11:54<@Alberth>the thing to keep in mind is that another coder should be able to understand what you wrote
11:54<@Alberth>preferably try to write code good enough such that you don't need comment
11:55<@Alberth>if some code is complicated, write down the piece of information that the coder should know about
11:56<@Alberth>the code tells already what exactly is done, so tell why you do it at that point instead
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11:57<@Terkhen>reading this conversation gave me a strong feeling of deja vu :P
11:57<samu>ok, editing some parts
11:58<@Alberth>Terkhen: :)
11:59<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
11:59<andythenorth>been a while :)
11:59<@Terkhen>andythenorth: hi, I mostly lurk nowadays
11:59<andythenorth>I know :)
11:59<andythenorth>it is mostly V453000 and andythenorth doing monologues these days
12:00<andythenorth>nobody actually talks about anything
12:01<@Terkhen>heh :P
12:01<andythenorth>but then again
12:02<andythenorth>when I first joined this channel, someone said same to me
12:02<andythenorth>only with different names
12:02<@Terkhen>it does not sound that different from what I remember, yep
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12:12*andythenorth has nearly placated pyflakes for Road Hog
12:12<andythenorth>and hopefully a python 3 compile also
12:13<andythenorth>Road Hog currently compiles quite fast
12:13<andythenorth>10s or so, with no fancy tricks
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12:27<@planetmaker>good evening
12:27<frosch123>nice news post :)
12:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, devzone has both pythons, py2 and py3. You don't need to switch explicitly. But the binary name of py3 is python3 (as usual and recommended by python devs)
12:27<@planetmaker>and python2 is aliased to python
12:27<@planetmaker>thanks :)
12:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth, and if you got an executable python script you need to adjust the shebang, of course
12:28<andythenorth>let’s see if I can just call python3 from the makefile
12:29<@planetmaker>hi hi :)
12:29<andythenorth>works locally
12:30*andythenorth will push
12:30<@planetmaker>heffer, blathijs, Ammler there's a new nml version out which will need packaging for the soon-to-be-released OpenGFX. If you want any changes to OpenGFX, can you please tell me which in a timely manner (preferably with patch :D ), please?
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12:30<heffer>planetmaker: will do. thanks
12:30<heffer>i hope that I can spend some time on this tonight
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12:31<@planetmaker>heffer, the new nml will need some work from you, for sure. It's based on py3 instead of py2 and has an - albeit optional - cython module
12:32<samu>i don't know what to do about 'extra counts'
12:32<andythenorth>ho a release :)
12:32<@Alberth>samu: delete them?
12:39<samu>here it is another go at it
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27154 /trunk/src/lang (indonesian.txt korean.txt) (2015-02-18 17:45:30 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 9 changes by UseYourIllusion
12:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 4 changes by telk5093
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12:54<samu>I had some questions about that load part
12:55<samu>earlier today
12:56<samu>what is better correct? WATER_CLASS_RIVER or WATER_CLASS_CANAL when counting
12:57<samu>either works, but I don't get why
12:57<samu>at line 14 in
12:58<@Alberth>you tried asking what it is?
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13:24<Pulec>what faster multiplayer games are mostly played?
13:24<Pulec>i mean in openttd
13:24<Pulec>some goals like reach $100 000 comapny value
13:25<@planetmaker>I would think the most popular MP games are citybuilders. Or maybe those with transport goals like BusyBee or SiliconValley
13:26<andythenorth>I think a game script with short goals like company value would be welcome
13:26<andythenorth>but none exists yet
13:26<andythenorth>it’s probably a relatively simple script
13:27<@Alberth>not sure you can get it exactly right, you probably have to poll company values
13:30<andythenorth>first one to exceed £x ?
13:30<andythenorth>at month end?
13:30<andythenorth>or such
13:33<@Alberth>most money above X at end of month seems doable
13:34<Pulec>andythenorth, what kinds of scripts are you talking about? are there any examples?
13:35<andythenorth>or GoalScripts
13:35<andythenorth>can’t remember which :P
13:35<@Alberth>game scripts :p
13:36<@Alberth>have a look at the online content
13:37<Pulec>xcool python
13:39<@Alberth>squirrel :)
13:46<samu>that is for counting as canal
13:46<Pulec>i mean its cool that new graph language looks pythonic
13:46<Pulec>*new graphics
13:47<samu>it counts +1 to water maintenance if the middle part of lock is built on bare land
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13:49<samu>I'm confused
13:49<samu>if it finds that it was built on a river, don't add +1
13:50<@Alberth>Pulec: oh, right, yes, somewhat if you ignore the { and } :)
13:51<samu>the question is, why does it also work if it checks against WATER_CLASS_CANAL
13:51<samu>are rivers also canals?
13:51<samu>I don't understand
13:51<Pulec>i can live with that, it could be much worse
13:51<Pulec>I doubt I will be writing anything soon anyway
13:52<Pulec>what community is making, new graphics, trains, cars?
13:52<@Alberth>some are here :)
13:53<andythenorth>some are elsewhere
13:54<andythenorth>the other places
13:54<samu>could I get some help, I'd like to get past this
13:54<samu>want to head into my next step
13:57<samu>WATER_CLASS_RIVER - replacing that to WATER_CLASS_CANAL also works, but I don't understand why, it confuses me why it works
13:58<samu>it feels like I'm doing something wrong
13:58<Pulec>what does this code supposed to do?
13:59<@Alberth>there are usually lots of values that are not some other value
13:59<samu>when loading a save game it will start counting all maintenance pieces of water
13:59<+glx>samu: because it has no class if it was not water
14:00<+glx>it's river or clear land
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14:00<Wolf01>hi hi
14:01<Pulec>i had this idea 2 years ago
14:03<samu>please explain me better
14:03<samu>it is a lock
14:03<samu>what class is this lock
14:05<samu>how could the game "guess" that canal was also river
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14:18<@Alberth>samu: != means testing *not* equal
14:19<@Alberth>Pulec: that's not new the simcity people also had that idea, but the other way around, and with their own game :)
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14:21<samu>my brain got stuck
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14:25<samu>I still don't undestand. I'm sorry, I'm really sorry
14:26<samu>I'm bothering you too much over this
14:27<@Alberth>say I have a number 5
14:27<@Alberth>how many numbers are equal to 5?
14:27<@Alberth>how many numbers are not equal to 5 ?
14:28<@Alberth>for simplicity, let's say between 1 and 9
14:28<samu>and 8?
14:28<@Alberth>yeah, something like that
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14:29<@Alberth>so now you have some mystery number X
14:29<@Alberth>how is it weird that X is not equal to 2 numbers WATER_CLASS_RIVER and WATER_CLASS_CANAL ?
14:30<@Alberth>there are lots of numbers not equal to some other number
14:30<@Alberth>and only one that is equal
14:37<samu>my mind is broke :(
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14:45<samu>that tile is X
14:46<+glx>lock middle tile class can be canal (if it was clear before building) or river (if it was river before building)
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14:47<+glx>well river or whatever as in the case of an already water tile it keeps de class when building the lock
14:52<samu>when X is built on clear land, it is canal?
14:52<samu>when X is built on river, it is river?
14:52<samu>hmm ok
14:53<samu>supposing X is built on clear land, it's canal testing against not canal
14:54<samu>X is built on river, it's river testing against not canal
14:54<samu>X is built on clear land, it's canal testing against not river
14:54<samu>X is built on river, it's river testing against not river
14:56<samu>1 - false, so it adds +1
14:56<+glx>maybe it's the way you test it, if you have 2 locks with 1 on river and 1 on land, the total will be the same
14:56<samu>2 - true, does not add
14:57<samu>3 - true, does not add
14:57<samu>4 - false, adds +1
14:57<samu>ok makes sense now, damn, this was not obvious for me
14:58<samu>thx albert and glx
14:59<+glx>with only 1 lock you'll see a difference if you change the line :)
15:02<samu>change the line, what do you mean
15:03<samu>there is an error
15:04<samu>ok let me testin in game
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15:06<+glx>[19:57:37] <samu> WATER_CLASS_RIVER - replacing that to WATER_CLASS_CANAL also works, but I don't understand why, it confuses me why it works <-- and test loading with only 1 lock
15:09<samu>im doing that right now
15:12<samu>canal is wrong
15:12<+glx>so using WATER_CLASS_RIVER was correct, and should not be changed ;)
15:13<samu>how the hell did i screw my testings
15:13<+glx>or if you wan't to change you need to also replace != with ==
15:13<samu>let it stay river
15:15<samu>it was initially canal
15:15<samu>but it was boggling my mind
15:15<samu>so i changed to river to see if it would make a difference, and it didn't
15:15<samu>that save game was not a good idea
15:16<samu>now i started fresh new games, test 1 lock at a time
15:17<samu>what was wrong was my testing procedure
15:19<samu>it lead to all this confusion
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15:29<samu>lines 94 and 100 might be wrong
15:31<andythenorth>samu is teddy bear coding :)
15:32<andythenorth>but to irc, not a bear
15:32*andythenorth does same, with mixed results
15:33<+glx>yeah teddy bear never answers
15:33<andythenorth>half the time I don’t need any answers
15:33<andythenorth>usually I realise my own stupid mistake after asking the question
15:33<andythenorth>and then rush to cover my tracks :P
15:35<samu>must merge a company 1 lock at a time
15:36<SpComb>it's rubber ducks, not teddy bears
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15:38<samu>i must bankrupt with trains
15:40<samu>bankrupting with buses is better
15:40<samu>there's already roads
15:40*andythenorth lost in the c2 wiki again :P
15:42<andythenorth>it’s a proper maze of links
15:43<andythenorth>I can get lost in their for hours
15:44<SpComb>like tvtropes, but more IT?
15:45<NGC3982>Wait, -that- is rubberducking?
15:46<SpComb>the link is right there
15:55<Wolf01>also called teddy bear programming if you have that instead of a rubber duck
15:56<Wolf01>instead I have a nice amount of lego minifigs sit under my display :P
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15:58<b_jonas>different from _duck typing_
15:59<samu>lines 94 and 100 are correct after all
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16:06<samu>is it supposed to display estimated costs during scenario editing?
16:06<samu>holdinsh shift
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16:23<samu>tests complete, everything is correct
16:24<samu>hopefully I tested this the right way
16:25<samu>up next: the upper tile
16:26<samu>if placing canals on rivers costs money, then placing a lock on river must also cost money for the upper tile and lower tiles
16:27<samu>exception is when upper tile and lower tile are already canals
16:27<samu>becomes free
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16:29<samu>and alberth flees
16:29<samu>I can't blame him
16:29<blathijs>planetmaker: Thanks for the headsup
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you might be better off removing all this tile special casing, and treating all the tiles the same
16:37<samu>hmm but there's a catch
16:37<samu>water maintenance
16:38<samu>on neutral canal tiles
16:38<samu>can't treat them all equal
16:38<samu>neutral or bankrupted canal tiles
16:39<samu>or are you refering something different than this?
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16:45<samu>imagine building a canal on this setup: upper tile is canal and owner is none + middle tile is bare land + lower tile is canal and ower is self
16:46<samu>for upper tile, add a 0 cost, add no maintenance cost
16:47<samu>for middle tile, add the lock structure price which is 7500, and 6 maintenance costs + 1 because it's not built on a river tile, so 7
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16:48<samu>for lower tile, add a 0 cost again, add no maintenance cost
16:48<samu>for middle tile also add that fake cost i created which is 5000
16:49<samu>becomes 12500 / 7
16:49<samu>this example looks terrible
16:50<samu>2nd example, upper tile is canal and owner is none + middle tile is bare land + lower tile is bare land
16:50<Wolf01>and if you consider the lock just the sloped tile and left the upper and the lower tiles untouched?
16:51<samu>lower tile in this case is bare land, when building the lower tile, it costs 5000 + 1 maintenance
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16:53<samu>i have to touch because when building a canal on a river, it costs something, 5000
16:53<samu>if upper tile is river, add the cost 5000, but 0 maintenance
16:54<samu>building canal on a river is currently costing 1 maintenance, i intend to change that at a later point
16:55<samu>should cost 5000, but 0 maintenance
16:55<samu>but right now i'm editing the lock
16:57<samu>... and moving forward... removing a canal that was built on a river, reverts back to river
16:58<samu>I can't do all this at once, I don't have the necessary skills to do all that at once
16:58<samu>noob coding skills here
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>samu: i mean you execute the same piece of code for all 3 tiles (check whether is already canal, add canal build cost, add canal maintenance cost, ...)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>samu: in a loop
16:59<samu>for ?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>samu: look at "tile loops"
17:00<samu>ah, oki
17:01<samu>i've seen a tile loop for when building canal pieces
17:01<samu>and I couldn't figure it out
17:01<samu>is that one?
17:02<Wolf01>when I was a noob and had to learn (not that I'm better now, OTTD is changed a lot and I might have to learn again), I looked for the code which worked like the feature I wanted to add, copied it, changed it and made the feature :D
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>samu: tile loops are special for loops
17:05<samu>ah, tile area loop, not the same thing
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17:07<heffer>planetmaker: okay. first thing i notice about the release is the annoying filename
17:07<samu>TileLoop_Water (TileIndex)
17:07<samu>it's this?
17:07<samu>TileLoop_Water (TileIndex)
17:07<heffer>means i need to touch the URL in my RPM spec file every time the revision or commit changes (i.e. every release)
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>samu: no
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>samu: that is a special tile loop that covers the whole map in a regular interval
17:08<heffer>just noticed that i already added a variable to my spec file called "version_foo"
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>samu: you don't need that. you need a tile loop that covers a small area
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>heffer: you probably complained about the exact same thing last time :p
17:10<samu>TILE_AREA_LOOP(tile, ta)
17:10<heffer>Eddi|zuHause: pretty sure about that actually :D
17:10<@planetmaker>yes probably :P
17:11<@planetmaker>but complain especially about building opengfx development branch. I haven't released that yet :)
17:11<samu>there is a TILE_AREA_LOOP in this part: CommandCost CmdBuildCanal(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text) {
17:12<samu>can't understand the heck of it
17:12<@planetmaker>anyway, please keep it coming that feedback... it's not pointless :)
17:12*planetmaker -> bed now, though. Good night. But I'll read back
17:12<samu>for (TileIndex tile = 0; tile < MapSize(); tile++)
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17:19<heffer>also make or python3 build gives me -> from nml import version_info \n ImportError: cannot import name 'version_info'
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17:21<+glx>samu: that loops over the whole map
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17:24<samu>tile - delta < tile + delta
17:25<samu>is there an example in water_cmd.cpp file?
17:27<@planetmaker>hm, that's bad, heffer :)
17:27<Wolf01>samu: try to understand the basic concepts, a "loop" statement uses a for, a while, or even recursion, a conditional statement does not loop, nor does a switch
17:28<@planetmaker>it works perfectly when building from the repository
17:28<@planetmaker>but not from... what I put on bundles server it seems
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: wrong handling of the case when hg is not present?
17:29<@planetmaker>no, it's worse
17:30<heffer>almost all of the files in ./nml/ are missing
17:30<@planetmaker>yeah :(
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17:33<samu>for (TileIndex tile = (tile - delta); (tile + delta); tile++) {
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17:33<@planetmaker>when did it get that broken? :S
17:33<l4urenz>so this is more dev chat then any other subject
17:34<samu>for (TileIndex tile = (tile - delta); (tile + delta); tile + delta) { ?
17:34<heffer>l4urenz: sometimes yes, sometimes no
17:34<@planetmaker>l4urenz, this is general openttd channel
17:34<samu>pff so confused
17:34<l4urenz>planetmaker, I was told yesterday
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>l4urenz: usually it's more other topics than anything else :p
17:34<l4urenz>but been lurking since then... mostly dev :)
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>l4urenz: but there are episodes of dev talk occasionally
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17:35<Wolf01>samu: yes, those look like loops, too bad that without context is difficult to tell what they are useful for
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>l4urenz: if by other subjects you mean playing the game. no, that barely ever happens :p
17:35<@planetmaker>l4urenz, it is not talk about specific servers usually - as they all have their own channels
17:35<l4urenz>ahaa, i still play offline or with friends locally
17:35<@planetmaker>however anything openttd is on-topic here
17:36<l4urenz>trying to read up on stuff how to act/play in a server
17:36<l4urenz>since most of them follow certain rules
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17:36<l4urenz>then again, my own rule is not to play openttd during the week because i seem to forget time
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17:37<l4urenz>which will result in only a few hours of sleep before work..
17:38<heffer>planetmaker: can confirm that nml builds OK from hg
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17:39<samu>ah, so what you're telling me is to re-write this whole block static CommandCost DoBuildLock(TileIndex tile, DiagDirection dir, DoCommandFlag flags)
17:39<samu>using for
17:39<samu>or so
17:39<samu>gee, I'm so gonna break the game
17:40<samu>is that it?
17:41<Wolf01>usually breaking the game and learn how to fix it is a good start point
17:42<samu>better not start doing it today
17:42<samu>will take hours, and I don't have time
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19:52<Pikka>monsieur le supermop
19:52<Pikka>I did start coding your tram, then I'm afraid I disappeared down to sydney for a week. but I'm back. :)
20:00<supermop>haha its ok
20:01<supermop>ive been modelling mmore
20:01<supermop>..and looking at flights to singapore
20:01<Pikka>if you have any more finished, send 'em over. ;)
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20:03<supermop>do you use google drive?
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20:11<Pikka>I do not
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21:01<supermop>ok no to singapore as my us passport expires in less than 6 months and it takes forever to get a new one here
21:11<Pikka>nearly got the offsets on these first trams sorted, then they're ready. :)
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21:17<Pulec>can anybody please try to access ?
21:17<Pulec>do you get simple white page or hosted by
21:23<+glx>a simple page
21:24<+glx>with only a <p>
21:24<Pulec>yes, thats correct
21:24<Pulec>for some reason when I try to access from my place I get different page
21:25<Pulec>its probably because I am still coneted to that vps
21:25<Pulec>thank you glx
21:25<Pulec>I do recommend this vps host
21:25<Pulec>€4.5 a year for good setup with no public ipv4
21:26<Pulec>you have to play with proxies and stuff, but it works :-)
21:33<supermop>haha watching this thing drive around is the best part of my day
21:34<supermop>question aabout coding - is it hard to code a segment that sort of overlaps other segments?
21:35<Pikka>"sort of overlaps"? well, you can't really do any sprite sorting. what did you have in mind?
21:37<supermop>the top option of those yellow ones, how best to do the round part
21:38<Pikka>put half on each so they line up when the vehicle is travelling straight, I'd say.
21:38<Pikka>ie cut the round part through the middle
21:42<supermop>what if i render the front and rear with the shape of the round part cut out, would that solve issues with sprite sorting?
21:43<Pikka>well, it'd look odd when going round corners. it's going to look odd going around corners no matter what. so I'd just think about what's easiest. :) making 2 parts with half the round section each would be easiest.
21:44<supermop>ok i guess with current way roads are set up trams spend little time in corners anyway
21:46<supermop>i may render these on a fake road so the aluminum bits and clear bits are less blue, then render without to create a mask to cut out the road
21:57<supermop>i sent you some stuff i need to re do, just in case you are curious as to what ive been working on
21:58<Pikka>nice :)
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 19 00:00:20 2015