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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-02-21

---Logopened Sat Feb 21 00:00:23 2015
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02:26<@Alberth>moin andy
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03:05<@planetmaker>moin moin
03:15<@planetmaker>Alberth, bridges in OpenTTD can have a maximum length. So yes, "too long for a bridge" is an actual error in OpenTTD :)
03:16<@planetmaker>however, of course, the cheat your mention works around that
03:16<@Alberth>hi hi
03:17<@Alberth>I know bridges have a quite finite max length :p I don't see building an island as a cheat, we do it too in RL with long bridges :p
03:17<Supercheese>RL OP, needs nerf
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03:19<@Alberth>hmm, maybe automatically build islands? :p
03:21<andythenorth>he really is just asking for boats no?
03:21<andythenorth>he wants an alternative to buses
03:22<andythenorth>he could also use planes
03:24<@Alberth>Supercheese: OP seems quite reasonable, it's more Sunshare hijaccking the thread :)
03:25<Supercheese>He started the thread, though
03:26<@Alberth>oh, indeed he did. I was thinking about the "connect two islands" thread recently, but I was wrong
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04:27<chillcore>hello all
04:28<chillcore>"int* const q = new int[10];" Now the array elements in q can be modified, but any change to q (like q++) is illegal, as it is with an ordinary array identifier.
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04:36<@Rubidium>chillcore: it's not like that's a new feature ;)
04:38<chillcore>true Rubidium ... I just kept getting confused as to why trying to modifie an array kept throwing me errors. :P
04:39<chillcore>If I understand correctly simply removing the asterix or ataching it to const will make it fail again ...
04:39<@Rubidium>but you're not modifying the array, you're modifying something that points to something else
04:40<@Rubidium>in the above case you have a pointer (that may not change) to an array (that may be changed)
04:41<@Rubidium>though I reckon it happens more often the other way around, i.e. a pointer that may change but the array (content) that may not be changed
04:41<@Rubidium>int q[] = new int[10] gives you the equivalent of int * const q = new int[10]
04:42<chillcore>thanks for the clarification. I really should do them exercises too next time I go through my books. ;)
04:43<@Rubidium>and const int * q = new int[10] makes little sense because you may modify q (but then you loose track of your array) but you may not modify the thing q points to (i.e. the array content)
04:44<@Rubidium>though you'll often see const int * q = <some const array> where q is used to iterate over that array
04:45<@Rubidium>and for the fun of it, you can also get things like const int ** const which'll get your mind all garbled up ;)
04:46<supermop>sunshare is our muse
04:47<supermop>oops day at beach means i missed pikka
04:48<andythenorth>I have these hot metal cars using the animated fire cycle when loaded
04:48<andythenorth>I could add smoke :P
04:48<supermop>hot wheels?
04:48<chillcore>Rubidium: the thing that gets me in most books is that arrays are in chapter 3 and what I quoted is in chapter 13 which I found after a detour through chapter 22.
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05:21<supermop>these may have looked better as trains, but then i miss out on the pun
05:21<supermop>yo Pikkaphone
05:21<Pikkaphone>what what
05:21<supermop>little coffee machines driving about!
05:22<Pikkaphone>Choo Choo!
05:22<Pikkaphone>are they acceptable then?
05:22<supermop>very cute
05:22<supermop>trying to get my head around applying liveries to the real trams
05:23<supermop>rhino 4 has a 'decal' feature that i will try to use
05:23<supermop>trams run all night tonight here
05:24<supermop>ran down to st kilda but then got rained out this afternoon
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05:24<supermop>anyway, the Z classes are 2m longer than the a class
05:25<supermop>to chibi or not to chibi
05:25<supermop>a is 14, w is 15, and z is 16
05:25<Pikkaphone>imo the a classes you have now are too long for ttd ;)
05:26<supermop>so i can move away from 16m/tile and re-render, or squish the Zs
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05:27<supermop>melbourne really seemed to drag its heels on just building an articulated tram
05:27<Pikkaphone>well if you're okay with how the a's look then might as well keep to your standard
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05:27<andythenorth>hello Pikkaphone
05:28<supermop>making the w and z also 14m may be a good solution as well
05:28<Pikkaphone>hallo andythenorth
05:28<supermop>just remove a window bau
05:28<Pikkaphone>that's a spicy meatball
05:29<andythenorth>I added some animated hot sauce
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05:36*andythenorth bbl
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06:24*chillcore invents "CC plus minus"
06:25<chillcore>ev erything can and will change unless you exxplicitely specifie it can not ... hmm
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06:46<chillcore>lol book ... "SelfReferential* sr; // Head spinning yet?"
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07:08<@Rubidium>chillcore: type* <name> is quite misleading
07:09<@Rubidium>you know about int x, y declaring two variables of type int? Now what types are x and y in: int* x, y
07:11<chillcore>memory adresses?
07:13<@Rubidium>x is an int pointer, y is just an int
07:13<chillcore>right I read that and forgot untill you mentioned it ...
07:14<@Rubidium>which is why openttd's coding style dictates that the * should be placed against the variable, i.e. int *x, y
07:15<chillcore>right ... I have some more reading to do soon-ish
07:16<@Alberth>it better expresses that * is part of x, rather than part of 'int'
07:16<@Alberth>very subtle, but it works
07:26<chillcore>thank you for the hint ... browses coding style
07:27<chillcore>if it were not for trying to fix already working code this would be more fun :P
07:29<chillcore>I guess that is why I always skip those things ^^^
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08:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: is that the ancient title game?
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08:20<CosmicRay>Hello folks. Been playing OpenTTD for awhile here, and I seem to have a problem where after awhile, the game grows so that all of my transport networks are completely overwhelmed. Regardless of whether I'm using cargodist. I can have intercontinental airports, 7-track train stations, and them both completely busy and still thousands of people waiting at stations. Even with streetcar grfs the in-city transport is overwhelmed too, usually w
08:20<CosmicRay>ith getting people to/from stations. ideas?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>house NewGRFs have a big influence on how many passengers are generated
08:22<CosmicRay>the only NewGRF I typically use is Generic Tram Set v0.4
08:23<CosmicRay>and on my most recent game I haven't even tended to mail or freight much, but that's always a problem too. the mines and farms keep producing more and more, the factories keep producing more and more...
08:23<CosmicRay>sort of a good but annoying problem
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>then i think the only solution is building more efficient networks :)
08:24<CosmicRay>I've had games with 8-track mainlines and massive train stations... or every town having an intercontinental airport.
08:24<CosmicRay>they always get overwhelmed in the end
08:25<CosmicRay>I'm playing with pretty much default settings, too. large maps (at least 256x256), mostly temperate zone
08:26<CosmicRay>I don't think I'm really tweaking settings in any impactful way
08:26<CosmicRay>I've tried the idea of transportation hubs with cargodist
08:27<CosmicRay>they get quickly overwhelmed
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that tends to happen
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>try vehicle sets with higher capacity
08:27<CosmicRay>any particular newgrf to recommend?
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>not really
08:28<CosmicRay>with the defaults my planes max out at 400 passengers and most of my maglev trains at 470 (because I run some mail cars on them too)
08:28<CosmicRay>AFAIK I am using the highest-capacity planes and best trains
08:28<CosmicRay>my game is up to year 2291 so there are plenty of nice vehicles ;-)
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08:36*chillcore points the pointer to the door, therefore the pointer is no more. or is it?
08:37<chillcore>did not work. nvm me
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08:41<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:20<samu>is anyone able to join my game
11:20<samu>i am wondering why no one is joining, it was open 2 hours ago
11:29<@Alberth>ever looked at the server list?
11:29<@Alberth>count the number of empty servers :p
11:33<samu>:(, for two hours, no one even tried to join
11:33<samu>nothing in console
11:35<@Alberth>"only ships" ? doesn't sound very inviting
11:35<samu>testing purposes
11:36<@Alberth>sure, but people want to play, not test
11:38<samu>can't test it too well because of that issue with middle tile on locks
11:38<samu>but it's something
11:40<samu>oh, speaking of that, I suppose I can submit the patch to bug tracker?
11:42<@Alberth>I guess you can
11:42<samu>it's a patch that prices middle lock tile based on canal price, not on clearing a river tile
11:43<samu>ok ty
11:43<@Alberth>I don't know whether it is worthwhile to include it
11:44<samu>when used with base costs, the problem is exposed clearer
11:44<samu>on it's own, makes no difference
11:53<samu>ok, with default prices, this patch results in locks costing less when building on river, but costing more when building on bareland
11:56<samu>it is basing the cost on canal which are still based on 5000, that's why it ends up costing more on bareland
11:56<samu>17500 becomes 22500
12:01<samu>17500 without patch, becomes 22500 when placed on bareland tiles
12:01<samu>17500 without patch, becomes 7500 when placed on river tiles
12:02<samu>plus the added cost for clearing grass/debris, etc...
12:02<samu>in the case of bareland
12:06<samu>which type of report is it? bug, patch, feature request?
12:06<samu>first time doing this
12:06<@Alberth>first check if there is a report bout it already
12:07<samu>ok, it's a bit of the three
12:07<@Alberth>if there is, attach the patch to it
12:07<@Alberth>a bit of the three?
12:08<samu>yes, bug is better exposed when used with a newgrf
12:08<samu>without any newgrf, it's hard to identify it
12:09<@Alberth>oh, right
12:09<@Alberth>if there is no open issue about it, make a new one
12:09<samu>the feature part is that it is changing prices
12:09<@Alberth>as you have a patch, label it patch
12:10<@Alberth>'feature request' means 'wanted feature'
12:10<@Alberth>not 'implemented feature'
12:10<samu>ah, ok I get it
12:14<samu>the patch is a little bit of opinionated
12:14<samu>if you will
12:14<samu>i'll tell about it in the description
12:14<@Alberth>that's why there is a description :)
12:25<samu>oh crap, big link
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12:37<samu>so when i search for locks, i get more crash results and other deadlocks rather than locks
12:37<samu>no one likes ships here
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12:43<samu>Status: Unreproducable, there's a typo there
12:48<samu>closest report that matches what this patch do is
12:48<samu>only the comment though
12:49<samu>this comment
12:50<samu>submit there?
12:50<samu>or create a new?
12:51<@Alberth>make a new one, and refer to FS#4711
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14:02<samu>Alberth: I don't know if this is the actual file I need to attach -
14:02<@Alberth>looks ok
14:03<@Alberth>hmm, it fixes 2 things eh?
14:03<@Alberth>for the next time, we prefer 1 patch to fix 1 thing
14:06<roidal_>does the production rate of a farm decrease it some field get destroyed by a player?
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15:43<Wolf01>hi hi
15:46<Wolf01>hah, today I attended a hobby modeling fair, the railroad layouts were awesome
15:47<frosch123>does that mean transportable railroad setups?
15:47<frosch123>or is it some kind of fixed installation
15:47<Wolf01>transportable ones, but really big
15:48<b_jonas>how many levels of nesting can there be where a railroad model is transported on a bigger railroad carriage?
15:49<Wolf01>the fair is this one:
15:52<FLHerne_>b_jonas: Not very many
15:52<b_jonas>is that the pianist one?
15:52<samu>I'm bored
15:52<b_jonas>no, it's not
15:53<b_jonas>ah, better
15:54<samu>it took 6 hours for someone to join my game and start building some ships
15:54<samu>there's no appeal apparently
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15:55<samu>they're slow in generating profit
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16:05<samu>he bankrupted :(
16:05<samu>ships not easy
16:10<samu>question: is it actually possible for a vehicle, say a single cargo ship, to store different types of cargo?
16:11-!-FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
16:11<samu>say, there's 50 mail, 30 coal and 100 livestock at a dock
16:11<FLHerne>samu: No
16:11<samu>could the... ok
16:11<FLHerne>samu: Aircraft can, because they cheat and use the shadow (!)
16:12<FLHerne>So they can store two cargos
16:13<samu>i was imagining this possibility
16:14<Wolf01>add shadows to every vehicle! double the amount ov vehicles in game!
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16:16<samu>the refit table would be changed somehow, into a different thing
16:16<samu>"allowed cargos to load"
16:16<samu>then toggle options for each type of cargo
16:17<samu>ship would load whatever those options were set to at stations
16:17<samu>but not those that were toggled off
16:17<samu>to a max of 160 "cargo units"
16:18<samu>but yeah... wishful thinking
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16:22<samu>default cargo toggled on would be goods
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17:55<samu>i'm bored
17:57<NGC3982>If you have nothing to do, i'd suggest fixing the we-can't-automate-Tasker-to-run-OpenTTD-by-autovoice issue.
17:57<NGC3982>Should be a plethora of forum posts about it.
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18:06<samu>whats' that
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18:17<samu>look -!727&authkey=!AGBG83CxA0fiT8A&ithint=file%2cxlsx~
18:18<samu>and now...
18:19<samu>... how do i link them
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18:33<Flygon__>samu: I'd use Dropbox
18:33-!-Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
18:33<Flygon>It's a spreadsheet
18:33<Flygon>Link works now
18:34<samu>file name is called aqueduct but it's no longer aqueduct stuff only, it's a bit of everything water related
18:34<samu>when I touch a depot tile
18:35<samu>hmm nevermind, I suck at this
18:35<samu>everything is interconnected
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18:39<samu>WATER_CLASS_SEA can be WATER_TILE_CLEAR and WATER_TILE_COAST, but since this is a depot, it can't be WATER_TILE_COAST
18:41<samu>I don't know, I can't interconnect this
18:42<samu>I can't see this~
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18:48<samu>i must focus on WATER_TILE_DEPOT and WATER_CLASS_CANAL only, and what interconnect these two
18:52<samu>where does the game store tile class owners?
18:53<samu>i give up, i don't know what to ask
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19:28<samu>i've a suggestion for ships
19:29<samu>I don't like to see them piling over each other
19:29<samu>give them a randomized acceleration so as to try to spread them
19:34<samu>same ship model, randomized acceleration for each depart
19:36<samu>for each time they depart*
19:37<Supercheese>There's A Patch For That™
19:37<Supercheese>lemme dig the link
19:38<samu>oh, nice
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19:40<Diablo-D3>hey guys
19:40<Diablo-D3>what AIs are worth looking at?
19:40<samu>let me look at my annotations
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19:43<samu>these annotations are a bit old, but
19:44<Supercheese>jeez can't find the patch, where was it..
19:44<samu>AroAI, except on sub-tropical
19:44<samu>Convoy, except on sub-tropical
19:45<samu>MogulAI, but this guy is very crazy
19:45<Diablo-D3>what about nocab or pathzilla?
19:45<samu>fills up 5000 vehicles in no time
19:45<Diablo-D3>I remember those being popular at one point
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19:47<samu>Clueless Plus except on toyland
19:47<samu>the rest are not as stable as I'd like
19:48<Diablo-D3>also, if I want to do citybuilder, should I go aphid or should I go simple citybuilder?
19:49<samu>NoCAB is buggy during rail upgrade
19:49<samu>almost always fail
19:49<samu>but before 2000 it's good
19:49<samu>past that, it kind of *dies
19:50<samu>stays idle with all trains stopped in depots
19:50<samu>i dont know what aphid is
19:51<Diablo-D3>a citybuilder script
19:51<samu>NoCAB is also terrible with ships
19:51<samu>it blocks itself with depots and reallly lags the game
19:52<samu>let me read more
19:53<samu>some of them require pre-set game settings
19:53<samu>to work better
19:55<Supercheese>Finally found it:
19:55<samu>forbit 90 degrees: turn it off
19:56<samu>it is preferrible for many of them which uses train
19:56<samu>super, ok, i'll look at it
19:56<samu>allow building on slopes and coasts: on
19:57<samu>allow drive-through road stops on town owned roads: on
19:57<samu>allow to join stations not directly adjacent: on
19:57<samu>Maximum bridge length: 20 tiles (for choo-choo)
19:57<samu>20 or more
19:57<samu>less than 20 it craps
19:59<samu>allow to join stations not directly adjacent: on (for AdmiralAI)
19:59<Diablo-D3>those are all default options
20:00<samu>vehicles never expire
20:00<samu>: on
20:00<samu>airports never expire: on
20:00<samu>for those who use airports
20:01<Diablo-D3>those two arent default
20:01*Diablo-D3 increases maximum station size
20:01<samu>Forbid trains and ships from making 90º turns: Off (for MailAI, though it almost never survive anyway)
20:02<Diablo-D3>you already said that one
20:02<samu>BorkAI is horrible with bus stations, don't let it build buses
20:02<samu>he spams bus stations in every road tile
20:02<samu>in a town
20:03<samu>unless that was fixed
20:03<samu>it works fine for trucks
20:04*Diablo-D3 starts a game and sees what happens
20:04<samu>WmDOT only works on Temperate
20:04-!-Ttech [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:04<samu>if it wants to survive, that is
20:04<samu>and that's it, i'm at the end of these notes
20:14<Flygon>Making 'tracks' in 1 tile wide channels would be... interesting
20:14<Flygon>As in
20:14<Flygon>Passing loops and all
20:14<Flygon>And signalling
20:14<Flygon>Doubt it'll ever happen tho @_@
20:14<samu>Pathzilla, you asked about it
20:15<samu>my observations is that it needs easy game settings, like a big loan, low construction costs
20:15<samu>it tends to bankrupt
20:15<samu>breakdowns off
20:16<samu>vehicles never expire
20:16<samu>that kind of settings
20:16<samu>it doesn't crash with errors
20:18<samu>oh, i have 1 instance where it crashed, it was in sub-tropical
20:19<samu>many AIs do bad in sub-tropical
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20:20<samu>sub-tropical is the worst tileset for AIs, statistically lol
20:21<samu>then toy land almost equally worse
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20:21<Rugnir_>anybody about?
20:21<samu>temperate and arctic are best for AIs
20:23<Rugnir_>I've been playing about with the game for a while now. I really wanna try a project, as i've made countless moneymaking rail systems.
20:23<Rugnir_>Anybody got any ideas? Know any servers for that kinda thing?
20:24<@planetmaker>Rugnir_, there's many many servers. Have a look at a few and stick to those where you like ti
20:25<@planetmaker>there's plenty with some kind of goals, often city builder or alike. But you can also get such game scripts from online content and then play that offline on your own w/o multiplayer servers involved
20:25<Rugnir_>I've not been playing multiplayer for very long but most of the servers I've found seem to be very temporary
20:26<Rugnir_>I was thinking something more like a large project
20:26<Rugnir_>I've been looking at trying to learn for openttdcoop but there's nobody about on their irc today
20:29<Rugnir_>I've been enjoying making rail systems as complex as possible. I've gotten up to 4 rails each way on my singleplayer games, but I'm sure its teribly inefficient
20:29<Diablo-D3>I forget how many years until AIs start up
20:30<@planetmaker>well, this is a bit night time compared to when coop is active, usually. But just stick around a bit... then maybe another person joins in and won't find it empty
20:32<Rugnir_>Okay thanks
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20:51<samu>woah, that looks suberb!
20:51<samu>patch for ships
20:52<samu>now as to convince devs to reduce canal prices...
21:08<samu>there's still room for improvements
21:11<samu>heh, some ships are doing a 360º turns
21:13<samu>a peninsula ahead + a nearby ship = 360 degree turn
21:13<samu>but woah, it looks spectacular to watch
21:24<samu>the path ai isn't helping
21:27<samu>forbidding 90 degrees is really really hurtful for ships
21:27<samu>YAPF doesn't handle this any good
21:32<samu>anybody here?
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21:33<Flygon>Most peeps are asleep
21:34<samu>watch 90 degrees on ships
21:34<Flygon>Australia here
21:34<ST2>samu is googling for what means "sleeping" xD
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21:37<Flygon>Is he like the villian from Die Another Day?
21:40<samu>i like the feature
21:40<samu>of that patch
21:40<samu>but it combines very bad with forbidden 90 degrees
21:41<samu>or actually, YAPF isn't gentle with that setting for ships
21:42<samu>not entirely the fault of the patch, but the patch requires forbidden 90 degrees :( too bad
21:43<samu>when there's a problem in the route, it becomes very difficult to find where the ship couldn't do a 90 degree turn
21:45<samu>0 viewers, nobody's watching t.t
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22:02<Flygon>Jusr like my art streams
22:02<Flygon>Everyone figures out I ran out of music when I get desperate and run Bond themes
22:11<samu>i hate to be forced into bed when i'm in the midst of something
22:14<samu>what I like on YAPF is that it looks quite fine-tuned for 90 degrees, with the exception of those fake ship is lost warnings when they're not lost.
22:16<samu>it does have some flaws from what I can remember - it fails when it has to pick a random depot for servicing at a random moment.
22:17<samu>it picks it, finds a route to it, but at the same time, it cancels it
22:17<samu>when it gets out of range
22:17<samu>ship then enters a dumb-looping back and forth
22:19<samu>when it goes back to his normal route, it re-enters the service range and triggers servicing, it picks the opposite route, going out of range
22:19<samu>it cancels service
22:19<samu>ship never gets serviced because it's on this dumb-loop
22:20<samu>and never returns back to its normal schedulle
22:21<samu>the problem is triggered when it needs to chose a depot to service
22:22<samu>if breakdowns are disabled and never service if breakdowns are disabled then I don't see any other flaw with YAPF and ships that I recall.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 22 00:00:24 2015