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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-01

---Logopened Sun Mar 01 00:00:34 2015
00:12<supermop>rendering this 7x7 grid of tram parts is really turning my laptop into a space heater
00:23<supermop>4x4 went by really quick, 6x6 was a bit slow, but 7x7 is taking forever
00:24<supermop>of course adding a bunch of lights behind curved glass inside little boxes and some glowing surfaaces is probably not helping
00:29<Pokka>:D
00:29<Pokka>btw with the concertina parts just add them to the ends of the vehicles I reckon. half on each.
00:33<supermop>i noticed a sprite rotated the wrong way halfway through through render so had to start over
00:33<supermop>caving in and rendering at 256 instead of 512 px per tile
00:34<supermop>i was rendering at double size then rescaling in PS as it seemed to allow a better quality rayrace
00:34<supermop>trace
00:34<supermop>on the d class trams
00:35<supermop>the ends are the same for D1 and D2, and the center of D1 is the same as the second unit of D2
00:36<supermop>so should i provide separate sprites for D1 or can it just reference those from D2's set of sprites?
00:36<Pokka>if they're the same I only need one lot of sprites
00:36-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
00:36<supermop>im not going to render them separately but i can copy those sprites into a separate d1 folder
00:37<supermop>if that is more helpful than the filesize saved by omitting them
00:37<Pikka>sure, although you don't have to. I can code it with just one set of sprites used by both vehicles. reduce the file size a bit :)
00:39<supermop>thats the only tram where different subclasses share identical parts so i didn't know if a non-standard bit of code was more of a pain than the extra MBs
00:41<supermop>also a pain that the 2nd and 4th cars of the D2 are different lengths unlike the C2 - so it ends up asymetrical and requires 12 more sprites
00:41<Pikka>oh, well
00:41<Pikka>actually any shortened vehicle requires 8 views :)
00:42<Pikka>even if you only render 4 I have to double them up for the different offsets
00:42<supermop>ooff
00:43<supermop>for 180degree symetric segments ive been doing 4 views for running and 8 for loading (assuming that doors only open on platform side)
00:43<supermop>i can duplicate the running views if that helps though
00:44<Pikka>it's all good
00:44<supermop>for end cabs ive been doing 16 views so far - assuming that eventually i'll add taillights on 8 and headlights on 8
00:44<Pikka>I render my shortened vehicles with 8 views, positioned with the front in the same place as the full-length vehicles, because it allows using the same offsets. but I've already worked out offsets for your other trams and hopefully the new ones will be the same size? ;)
00:45<Pikka>cool :)
00:45<supermop>im just centering all of the segments
00:45<supermop>i could do differently
00:46<Pikka>nope, all good. as long as they're consistent :)
00:46<supermop>ok that took 17 min after halving (quartering) the size
00:50<supermop>sort of feel like going to bunnings
00:50<supermop>want a smaller chisel and some yello spray paint
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03:03<andythenorth>o/
03:03<Pikka>eek
03:03<andythenorth>ook
03:04<andythenorth>do the rest of you have ctrl-click for industry types in mini-map? Or is it just me?
03:05<Pikka>just you, obviously
03:05<Pikka>it works but I've never used it before
03:06<Supercheese>the magick of the ctrl key
03:06*andythenorth is wondering how much thread can be expended on a non-issue
03:06<Pikka>well I usually want to show a couple of different industries so I just disable all then reenable the ones I want
03:07<Supercheese>Yeah, that's the non-ctrl method
03:07<Supercheese>although even with the white blink, single-tile town industries are sometimes still elusive
03:08<andythenorth>town industries are a PITA
03:08<andythenorth>oh eh, I bet they’re using 1x GUI zoom as well
03:09<Supercheese>GUI zoom is pretty new eh
03:10<@Alberth>moin
03:11<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27174 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2015-03-01 08:17:14 UTC)
03:17<@DorpsGek>-Feature[FS#6236]: Display relative offset changes in the sprite aligner (juzza1).
03:17<andythenorth>:o
03:17<andythenorth>does that mean the numbers are actually useful?
03:18<@Alberth>I hope so, but I didn't do much :p
03:19<@Alberth>all praise should go to juzza :)
03:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: shall we make a new BB release?
03:20<andythenorth>yes :)
03:20<andythenorth>sorry, I’ve had no time to look at it even
03:20<andythenorth>maybe for GS, we have to release early and often?
03:20<andythenorth>let players find the bugs
03:20<andythenorth>play-testing is time consuming
03:21<@Alberth>I tried it, last friday or so, and the new feature of not dropping goals where you work on, works
03:22<@Alberth>hmm, maybe I need to push some stuff, let's see :p
03:23<@Alberth>oh, I needed the name for the new release, let's do "RC2" ?
03:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^
03:24<andythenorth>yes
03:24<andythenorth>eh, it’s a day of forum wrongness
03:24*andythenorth wonders about correcting all the wrong
03:24<@Alberth>unsubscribe :)
03:27<@Alberth>tagging and publishing, how was that again
03:27*andythenorth looks
03:28<andythenorth>do we have a changelog?
03:28*andythenorth looking
03:28<@Alberth>I added a 'features' in the readme
03:28<andythenorth>yay
03:28<andythenorth>hg tag RC2
03:28<andythenorth>hg up RC2
03:28<andythenorth>dunno how we do the build
03:29<andythenorth>oh we have Makefile now?
03:29<@Alberth>we have that for a long time already :p
03:29<@Alberth>not sure whether the bananas thingie works correctly
03:30<andythenorth>one way to find out…
03:34<@Alberth>bananas doesn't like me :(
03:35<andythenorth>oh
03:36<andythenorth>Busy Bee is on my account for some reason
03:36<andythenorth>that’s stupid
03:36<andythenorth>should be on coop account
03:36<andythenorth>not even sure how that happened
03:36<andythenorth>usually I am logged in as coop
03:36<andythenorth>can it be moved?
03:36<@Alberth>pushed rc2
03:37<@Alberth>I made the first release, with both of us as author
03:37<@Alberth>but something went wrong, apparently
03:39<andythenorth>hmm no musa here
03:39*andythenorth looks how to get musa
03:42<andythenorth>is there a correct way to install random python modules?
03:42*andythenorth has never found one
03:43<andythenorth>my nmlc only works due to luck
03:43<andythenorth>and backups
03:44<andythenorth>I somehow managed to make it work once, and now I fetch the backup when it breaks
03:45<@Alberth>add a user directory to PYTHONPATH, and install it there
03:45<andythenorth>ah words I don’t understand yet :D
03:45<@Alberth>nmlc is easier though, just leave it all in the project, and make a soft link to the nmlc program
03:46<andythenorth>the ‘problem’ is needing nmlc 0.3.x and 0.4.x
03:46<andythenorth>although I think I fixed that now
03:46<@Alberth>you can change the name while making a softlink :)
03:47*andythenorth ponders
03:47<andythenorth>I treat my python environments as disposable, I think that’s my problem here
03:47<@Alberth>ln -s /some/devzone/nml_trunk/nmlc nmlc_trunk
03:47<andythenorth>so everything that can be got with pip install is fine
03:48<andythenorth>but anything that needs configuration, I forget what I did
03:48*andythenorth wonders if we can pip install musa and nml
03:48<@Alberth>I make a script or Makefile to record that stuff :p
03:48*andythenorth considers sh make_my_python_work
03:49<andythenorth>https://pypi.python.org/pypi/nml/0.2.4
03:49<@Alberth>if you need more than one configuration, it's quite messy, often
03:49<andythenorth>yes
03:49<andythenorth>currently I have 5
03:49<andythenorth>hmm https://pypi.python.org/pypi/musa/3.4.1
03:50<andythenorth>we are missing someone who likes packaging :D
03:52<Pikka>http://pikkarail.com/openttd/among-the-gum-trees/
03:53<supermop>hmm, keep rendering, make bucatini, or go to a bar?
03:53<Pikka>bar, obv
03:53<supermop>dont feel like eating bucatini but its all i have on hand
03:54<andythenorth>Pikka: is that your standard Brisbane type house?
03:54<Pikka>maybe!
03:54<supermop>looks swampy
03:54<supermop>eaves should overhang more though?
03:55<Pikka>you wouldn't be able to see the sides at all if the eaves were much bigger :)
03:55<supermop>looks good
03:55<@Terkhen>good morning
03:55<supermop>what about those shade things hanging on veranda/porch
03:55<Pikka>it's a start, anyway...
03:55<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
03:55<@Alberth>good morning Terkhen
03:55<Pikka>good morning Terkhen
03:56*andythenorth considers Pineapple FIRS economy
03:56<supermop>is thing in back rainwater tank?
03:56<andythenorth>if you could just quicly render all the industry sprites
03:56<Pikka>si
03:56<Pikka>I can render them very quickly andy
03:56<Pikka>you just have to model and texture them :)
03:56<andythenorth>this is problem
03:56<andythenorth>I am busy see
03:56<@Alberth>s/see/bee/
03:56<andythenorth>helping explain to child why you can’t convert buses
03:56<andythenorth>also he has transfer-leg profit issues
03:57<@Alberth>oh dear, so young, and having money trouble arleady
03:57<supermop>andy if you want basic shapes similar to what you have now, i can model some and export as meshes for Pikka to render
03:57<andythenorth>he has built a route with about 7 transfer steps in it
03:58<andythenorth>including needlessly putting a train portage across a small peninsual
03:58<andythenorth>peninsula *
03:58<@Alberth>no doubt it looks pretty
03:58<andythenorth>toyland
03:58<andythenorth>original base set
03:58<andythenorth>draw your own conclusion
03:59<andythenorth>so can I ln musa.py from virtualenv/bin?
03:59<andythenorth>or does it go in site-packages
04:00<@Alberth>I have been playing toyland a lot in my youth :)
04:00<@Alberth>you can just link it
04:00<@Alberth>python imports packages from the directory containing the program
04:01<andythenorth>now it needs a config file
04:02*andythenorth reads docs
04:02<@Alberth>'make' provides one
04:02<andythenorth>oh
04:02<andythenorth>I tried ‘make bananas’
04:02<andythenorth>print "reading configuration file %s..." % options.config
04:02<andythenorth>oh it’s python 2
04:02<andythenorth>oops
04:03<Supercheese>make bananas -> you'll need quite the ripening time
04:05<@Alberth>that's why you first need to install musa :p
04:06<Supercheese>and apparently you need ethylene gas too, hmm
04:06<Supercheese>they should have mentioned that in chemistry class, it would have been more interesting
04:07<Supercheese>"Ethylene is the simplest alkene, and it is used to ripen bananas"
04:08<andythenorth>can’t get a working musa
04:08<andythenorth>might return to that later
04:08<andythenorth>‘problems with python packaging'
04:08<@Alberth>:(
04:08<@Alberth>ok
04:09<andythenorth>standard for me
04:09<Supercheese>I thought pythons were carnivorous, but it seems to have eaten your bananas
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04:10<andythenorth>my python is rejecting bananas
04:10<andythenorth>etc
04:13<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbft3mxmv
04:13<andythenorth>I need to declare an encoding?
04:14<andythenorth>line 2 is empty
04:15<andythenorth>hmm
04:15<andythenorth>dunno
04:16<andythenorth>“python2.7 musa.py —version” works in the musa repo I have checked out
04:16<andythenorth>but not when linked from Busy Bee
04:16<andythenorth>if I put it in the virtualenv bin dir it has insufficient permissions
04:17<@Alberth>yes, "python bla.py" runs from whereever you start the program, and that's thus where your imports are
04:17<@Alberth>or rather, should be
04:17<@Alberth>what's 'python' at your system?
04:17<@Alberth>ie the first line of musa.py uses that
04:18<andythenorth>depends on the active virtualenv
04:18<andythenorth>I’ll change the shebang in musa
04:18<@Alberth>that's one option :)
04:19<andythenorth>still need to put musa in the path somehow
04:19*andythenorth has to go do children things
04:19<andythenorth>bbl
04:19<andythenorth>:|
04:20<@Alberth>PATH=$PATH:/some/where/musa_dir
04:22<andythenorth>to make this work for newgrfs, I had a PATH in Makefile.config iirc
04:23<@Alberth>I have a $HOME/bin directory where I add my user scripts
04:24<@Alberth>and in the login startup script, I add that directory to my path
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04:38<andythenorth>no setup.py for musa
04:38*andythenorth was wondering about just installing it as a package
04:39<andythenorth>the old-fashioned way :P
04:43*andythenorth tries directly uploading BB to bananas
04:43<andythenorth>bananas won’t accept the .tar
04:43<andythenorth>Unknown file in pack: ._license.txt
04:44<andythenorth>software development: all joy, no fun
04:45*andythenorth admits defeat
04:45<andythenorth>won’t accept a zip either
04:46<andythenorth>zip doesn’t have _license.txt in it
04:46<andythenorth>:x
04:46<andythenorth>bbl :)
04:46<SpComb>you wouldn't upload unlicensed code, would you
04:46<SpComb>it's like stealing a car
04:46<andythenorth>eh, I think you’re missing the point
04:47<andythenorth>or I am
04:47<andythenorth>one of us anyway
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05:01<Wolf01>hi o/
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05:11<@Alberth>moin
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05:51<@Alberth>hai
05:51<@Alberth>I saw you did FS#6237 already, nice
05:56<frosch123>moin
05:56<frosch123>yes, though i wonder whether replacing the _cur_dpi backups with some conistructor/destructor magic
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06:00<@Alberth>which would imply your object would need a set of {} brackets. Not so nice imho
06:01<@Alberth>I can imagine a DrawLimitArea da; da.SetLimit(xpos, ypos, xsize, ysize); /* draw stuff */ da.ResetLimit();
06:02<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p1tainnyy <- i mean something like that
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06:03<frosch123>possibly derived from Backup<DrawPixelInfo>
06:03<frosch123>though Backup enforced explicit calls to Restore
06:03<frosch123>and only uses the destructor in case of errors
06:04<@Alberth>I like making things explicit, it's hard to see "}" drops the limit
06:05<@Alberth>especially if you fold it in something harmless like a 'then' if (...) { BackUp... ; ... ; ... ; }
06:08<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/paezrhq73 <- so, essentially that
06:09<frosch123>maybe i missed a * or & somewhere :)
06:11<@Alberth>pretty much, although I would expect some _dpi global
06:11<@Alberth>oh it's in the constructor, right
06:12<@Alberth>should work
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07:39<andythenorth>Alberth: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gs/
07:39<andythenorth>RC2
07:39<@Alberth>\o/
07:39<andythenorth>it’s still on the wrong account
07:39<andythenorth>should move it to coop
07:39<andythenorth>dunno how
07:40<@Alberth>"M" ?
07:40<@Alberth>ah well :)
07:40<andythenorth>I modified the Makefile to make it work
07:40<andythenorth>and there was only one way to check it worked :P
07:40<andythenorth>no dry run
07:41<@Alberth>musa does have that, but again it needs makefile editing :)
07:41<@Alberth>publishing needs more love
07:41<@Alberth>you want to make a post, or should I?
07:42<andythenorth>you
07:42<@Alberth>k
07:42*andythenorth is hanging out washing
07:42<andythenorth>sorry, I’m not much help on BB :P
07:42<@Alberth>concurrent processing :)
07:42<frosch123>andythenorth: it shows only the first account, no matter what
07:42<@Alberth>I am not helping much on firs, iron horse, road hog
07:43<andythenorth>frosch123: is there some way to move them? Edit MySQL or something?
07:43<andythenorth>HEQS was moved to coop account years ago iirc
07:44<frosch123>maybe if you change the sorting in bananas.ini
07:44<andythenorth>oh maybe we’re talking at cross purposes
07:44<andythenorth>you’re speaking wrt musa?
07:45<frosch123>yes
07:45<frosch123>are you not using musa?
07:45<andythenorth>yes, but I originally uploaded BB to bananas on my andythenorth account
07:45<andythenorth>for reasons I don’t understand, probably just a mistake
07:45<andythenorth>everything else is on the openttdcoop account
07:46<@Alberth>I did that
07:46<@Alberth>as you can see in bananas.ini
07:47<andythenorth>where?
07:47*andythenorth looking
07:58<andythenorth>so what am I missing?
07:58<@Alberth>posted http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1140822#p1140822
07:58<andythenorth>musa asks for auth creds when it runs
07:59<andythenorth>so I put in my account for RC2 because that’s where BB is already
07:59<andythenorth>does bananas.ini try and provide the account?
07:59<frosch123>bananas.ini contains a list of accounts, which may update
07:59<frosch123>you can use any account of those
07:59<frosch123>but the website will only show one
08:00<frosch123>no idea which, maybe the fist in the list in bananas.ini
08:00<frosch123>maybe it updates when uploading a new version
08:00<frosch123>but why do you even care what the website shows? :p
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08:02<@Alberth>it didn't like me, for some reason
08:03<@Alberth>so we wondered who owns BB :)
08:03<andythenorth>can bananas content be uploaded via more than one account? :o
08:03<andythenorth>I assumed it was tied to a specific account
08:04<@Alberth>in that case it would be buggy, as you didn't upload the first release :p
08:04<andythenorth>hmm
08:05<andythenorth>oh, so that’s why it’s linked to my account? Because of your musa upload of RC1?
08:05<@Alberth>but it's an option :)
08:05<andythenorth>I thought I’d done a bad
08:05<frosch123>andythenorth: what do you think the user list in bananas.ini is for?
08:05<andythenorth>dunno, trying to find out :)
08:05<andythenorth>Alberth: so how did you get my password?
08:05<andythenorth>or is it just ‘auth’
08:05<@Alberth>haha :D
08:05<andythenorth>rather than specific user auth
08:05*andythenorth wonders how bananas user model works :P
08:05<@planetmaker>o/
08:06<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
08:06<andythenorth>so it doesn’t matter that it’s on my account, it’s not ‘lost’ if I’m not around?
08:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth, bananas.ini gives a list of applicable users. You give on upload your own user + pw for authentication against bananas. It's independent
08:06<andythenorth>other people can still maintain BB?
08:06<@planetmaker>it's just a list of users who may update later
08:06<@planetmaker>users not in the list in bananas.ini may never update the content (unless added in a later bananas.ini)
08:06<@Alberth>planetmaker: yep, that's the theory
08:07<@Alberth>but it didn't like me
08:07<@planetmaker>did you do something bad? ;)
08:07<@Alberth>while I uploaded the first release
08:08<@Alberth>perhaps I should have made more openttd patches?
08:08<@Alberth>don't know if bananas counts those :p
08:09<andythenorth>so do Bananas content item have n owners?
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08:09<@Alberth>are there other items with more than one owner?
08:09<frosch123>Alberth: maybe it is case sensitive
08:10<frosch123>is your account lowercase?
08:10*andythenorth has that bananas VM somewhere
08:10<andythenorth>we need to improve Bananas soon anyway :P
08:10<andythenorth>could we do it by April 1?
08:10<@Alberth>soon(tm)
08:10<frosch123>the vm is older than musa :p
08:10<andythenorth>hmm
08:10<andythenorth>well what do we need to improve?
08:10<andythenorth>my main goal was to provide a html page for each item
08:11<@Alberth>frosch123: Uppercase "A"
08:11<frosch123>Alberth: bananas.ini has lowercase
08:11<frosch123>so, is that the problem?
08:11<@Alberth>could be, we'll find out on the next release :)
08:12<andythenorth>so what can I do to ‘fix’ the Makefile?
08:12<@Alberth>although you wonder why I could upload the first time then
08:12<SpComb>is this "subsidies" thing in the game some new GoalScripts feature? :P
08:12<frosch123>Alberth: because it was the first time?
08:12<frosch123>basically you uploaded with not granting you the right to update
08:12<andythenorth>Makefile diff
08:12<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjhkexhdg
08:13<frosch123>but, well, musad should probably check whether the accounts actually exist
08:13<andythenorth>basically I dumped musa into BusyBee dir, that’s not essential, but avoided an ugly path :P
08:13<andythenorth>I can’t find a way to install musa as a python module / package
08:13<@Alberth>quite possible, but then it either has "alberth" and "Alberth" accounts, or something along the way dropped the lower case after the login check
08:13<andythenorth>I tried giving it an __init__.py and putting it in bin or site-packages
08:14<frosch123>andythenorth: stop installing stuff
08:14<frosch123>just symlink them from /usr/local/bin
08:14<andythenorth>how will python find it as a package from there?
08:14<andythenorth>that’s not in the path?
08:14<@Alberth>python uses the directory of the program as import directory
08:15<andythenorth>am I conflating package and program?
08:15<@Alberth>for nml, "nmlc" is program, and "nml/" is package (directory)
08:16<@Alberth>since nmlc is right next to "nml" directory, it can "from nml import stuff"
08:17<andythenorth>so I don’t need musa to be available as a python package? It’s just a program on my box?
08:18<@Alberth>it imports several .py files directly, it seems
08:18*andythenorth looks up how to make symlinks
08:18<@Alberth>just keep the entire directory
08:18<juzza1>https://wiki.openttd.org/Strings#Lifecycle the last part is still valid? i.e. delete all the translated strings manually if the string is changed in english.txt
08:18<frosch123>wt3 does that as well
08:18<@Alberth>cd /usr/local/bin ; ln -s /path/to/musa/musa.py .
08:19<frosch123>anyway, everything on strings on the wiki is old stuff
08:19<@planetmaker>frosch123, can bananas.ini remove people again from bananas access?
08:19<frosch123>planetmaker: no idea, i did not write it
08:19<frosch123>and it was most likely not tested
08:19<@planetmaker>juzza1, yes-ish. Depends a bit whether the meaning changes or it's just a typo fix or amendment
08:20<@planetmaker>juzza1, if you want to force a new translation (thus make it obvious), then remove the translations. In a separate commit
08:20<juzza1>I'm amending "Ctrl+click to do this and that"
08:20<frosch123>juzza1: but don't even consider doing that, unless you know how to use "sed" or similar tools :p
08:21<andythenorth>ok, I’ve linked musa, that works
08:21<@planetmaker>juzza1, not sure that amending the ctrl+click information warrants to invalidate translations as that only is an amendment
08:21<andythenorth>no makefile changes needed
08:22<@planetmaker>juzza1, in that case imho it's sufficient if translators see them in the category of changed strings. The current translation isn't wrong in that case. Just not complete
08:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: great
08:23<@planetmaker>juzza1, but indeed removing strings from translations is two console commands with grep and sed :)
08:23<andythenorth>maybe one day I’ll understand computers
08:23<@Alberth>we'll understand how to publish a script eventually :p
08:23<juzza1>planetmaker: ok
08:23<juzza1>and yes, i did it with sed :P
08:23*andythenorth wonders if he could improve musa docs
08:23<andythenorth>not sure how
08:24<@Alberth>your time is better spent on a nicer web thingie, probably
08:24<andythenorth>my world contains a lot of python files, almost none of which can be called directly
08:25<andythenorth>so I set about musa.py all wrong:P
08:25<@Alberth>directly callable scripts are very nice, you may want to consider adding more in your world
08:32<andythenorth>well, it tends to cause issues with shebangs
08:32<@planetmaker>version RC2M, eh?
08:32<andythenorth>unless you have something like buildout that can set the shebang
08:32<andythenorth>also, mostly, modules modules modules :)
08:32<@planetmaker>the shebang is set in the script?
08:33<andythenorth>conventionally
08:33<andythenorth>is there a sys arg method?
08:33<@planetmaker>#! /usr/bin/env python3
08:33<@planetmaker>or something like that is a nice shebang
08:33<andythenorth>shebang
08:33<andythenorth>useless for isolation
08:34<andythenorth>:)
08:34<andythenorth>which python 3 is that? :P
08:35<andythenorth>although there is a hideous port select utility on OS X that let’s you set current python
08:35<@planetmaker>python should always be python2. And python3 is... well... python3. Isn't that the case with your ports?
08:36<@planetmaker>same broken-ness as with linux arch then :P
08:36<@Alberth>bdfl sees "python" as "the python interpreter" which ever version :p
08:37<@Alberth>so it may be wise to specifically set a version if required
08:38<andythenorth>he
08:38<andythenorth>for work I need python 2.4, 2.6 and 2.7
08:38<andythenorth>for newgrfs I need 3.2, 3.4, and 2.7 and 2.6
08:38<andythenorth>so eh :)
08:40<@Alberth>just buy 5 computers :p
08:41<andythenorth>got seriously close to using vagrant :P
08:41<andythenorth>virtualbox for each project
08:41<andythenorth>totally portable :P
08:41<@Alberth>but 2.6 -> 2.7 and 3.2 -> 3.4 should be feasible quite easily ?
08:41<andythenorth>ish yes
08:42<andythenorth>you have 3.4 though, and I rely on you to repro my current bugs :P
08:42<andythenorth>whereas devzone has 3.2
08:42<andythenorth>and the 2.6 stuff would need a full production QA run to be moved to 2.7, and the production environment redeployed
08:42<andythenorth>2.4 is best not mentioned :(
08:43<@Alberth>I didn't, for exactly that reason :p
08:44<andythenorth>every package you want to use….doesn’t exist :(
08:44<andythenorth>it’s like crippleware
08:44<@Alberth>indeed, open source tends to move very fast to the newest stuff
08:44<@planetmaker>well, depends on which / how it is used
08:45<@planetmaker>distros don't exactly update the python version they ship
08:45<@planetmaker>thus yes, 3.2 is still debian current. As is 2.7
08:45<andythenorth>there tends to be conservatism around databases and stuff which has to be zero defect
08:45<andythenorth>“let’s stick with the known bugs"
08:46<@planetmaker>makes sense, if your source of revenue depends on it :)
08:46<andythenorth>I dunno
08:46<andythenorth>playing it safe tends to cause a lot of trouble in the long run
08:46<andythenorth>to quote Banksy
08:46<@planetmaker>well, the point with production systems is: you want them running and you need to make sure they're safe
08:46*andythenorth is stuck with a large app in python 2.4, which is dead :P
08:47<@planetmaker>any single change in version of one of the software pieces used may change that
08:47<@planetmaker>thus... setup the system, let it run for a few years safe security backports
08:47<@planetmaker>then setup new system with newer stuff, test, and switch
08:48<@planetmaker>different probably for desktop... but then... yes, I don't want to re-install my workplace desktop too often either. It also takes time
08:49<andythenorth>so should we update bananas for April?
08:49<@planetmaker>please do :)
08:50<@planetmaker>if you ask TrueBrain nicely he might even give you a VM clone of bananas with a DB copy and have you experiment till it runs :)
08:50<@planetmaker>or ... there used to be a VM ... wasn't there, frosch123 ?
08:51<andythenorth>I have one
08:51<@planetmaker>there might have been the issue that it integrates with the rest of openttd web frontend
08:52<@planetmaker>but granted... that can possibly be separated
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08:54<TrueBrain>[14:49] <andythenorth> virtualbox for each project <- use virtualenv, and yo dont need a vm for each project ;)
08:54<andythenorth>exactly
08:54<andythenorth>also isolated pythons which can be rebuilt on demand
08:54<TrueBrain>[14:57] <andythenorth> so should we update bananas for April? <- why April, and what update?
08:54<andythenorth>but you do have to fight setuptools 6 times :(
08:55<andythenorth>April 1 is traditional release date?
08:55<TrueBrain>I run Python2.7, Python 2.6 and PyPy 2.5 in different virtualenvs, all isolated :D Main system doesn't even have Python running
08:55<TrueBrain>I love that shit :)
08:55<andythenorth>I love it now I have got it written down and repeatable :P
08:55<andythenorth>I didn’t love learning it
08:56<andythenorth>Bananas update: I have only the idea of a html page for each item, showing the description etc
08:56<TrueBrain>anyway, I have no clue what you guys talk about :)
08:56<andythenorth>like a web preview
08:56<TrueBrain>planetmaker: there inded is a dev VM, which should work fine
08:56<TrueBrain>a DB copy would be impropable to give :P
08:56<TrueBrain>but it cant be hard to fill the dev VM with dummy data ofc :)
08:57<@planetmaker>it would be nice to be able to give that to andy :)
08:57<TrueBrain>ah; well, feel free to improve BaNaNaS :)
08:57<andythenorth>and anyone else who wants to improve it…
08:57*andythenorth wonders about a reskin some time
08:57<TrueBrain>planetmaker: give what? Bit vague after my lines :D
08:57<@Alberth>DB scheme?
08:57<TrueBrain>should be in the VM
08:57<@Alberth>or, what dies if you change that?
08:58<TrueBrain>I at least assume frosch did a proper job there; I have no reason to doubt him :D
08:58<andythenorth>could we have a populate script? (first run, dummy data)
08:58<@planetmaker>the DB scheme with at least dummy DB, access to it, so that he can stab at it till it squeaks back
08:58<TrueBrain>the VM, as far as I understood, is a working version of BaNaNaS
08:58<TrueBrain>so .. that should be in there
08:58<TrueBrain>I doubt otherwise the dev VM would be useful :D
08:59<TrueBrain>so to me it seems that information is already supplied, wrapped in a nice VM :D
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08:59<TrueBrain>and as BaNaNaS is build on Django, any DB changes should be trivial to apply to live system :)
09:00<TrueBrain>django-admin syncdb *waits* :D
09:00<TrueBrain>so knock yourself out with it, and let us know any patches you cook up
09:00<@planetmaker>I think the idea is: python3 instead of 2 :P
09:00<TrueBrain>that is a very bad idea :)
09:00<TrueBrain>for so many reasons, but most importantly: django :)
09:00<Wolf01>andythenorth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m01_wVwmR6s
09:01<Wolf01>(not mine)
09:01<TrueBrain>and also, very few reasons to upgrade to Python 3 atm :)
09:01<TrueBrain>(and then I talk about BaNaNaS, not musa btw :P)
09:01<TrueBrain>musa would be nice if it also ran under Python3 ofc :)
09:01<@planetmaker>actually the reasons become more to also use py3
09:02<TrueBrain>and for a server-side only thing that is not really useful
09:02<TrueBrain>client-side stuff, I totally agree :)
09:02<TrueBrain>so I wonder if we are all talking about the same thing here :)
09:03<TrueBrain>so lets rewind, and let me ask: what piece of software do you want to give Python3 support?
09:06<andythenorth>afaik, none of the big Python web frameworks can port to Python 3 yet
09:06<TrueBrain>nope
09:07<andythenorth>too many deps stuck on python 2
09:07<TrueBrain>so making BaNaNaS Py3 compatible is silly atm :D
09:07<andythenorth>we are going to try moving a small web app to python 3 in 2016
09:07<andythenorth>at work
09:07<andythenorth>some stuff in python 3.4 makes it look slightly more possible
09:08<TrueBrain>Py3 is much nicer than Py2
09:08<TrueBrain>just too bad so many libs depend on CPython2 ..
09:09<TrueBrain>and I mention CPython explicitly, because working with PyPy can also be troublesome :D
09:09<TrueBrain>but so what does planetmaker want to port to Py3? (and why?, curious etc :D)
09:11<@planetmaker>oh, I thought that's what andy tried to suggest when saying rewrite as he port(ed) everything to py3. A mis-understanding on my part
09:11<TrueBrain>ah :)
09:12<TrueBrain>server-side stuff will be a while before they can be ported to Py3, sadly
09:12<TrueBrain>and Py3 is already at version .. what, 3.4?
09:12<TrueBrain>I mean ... slow moving shit there :(
09:12<@planetmaker>I also wasn't aware that things look so gloomy wrt the big frameworks and py3
09:13<TrueBrain>in general, I find very few projects running Py3 :(
09:13<@planetmaker>yeah, well.
09:14<frosch123>planetmaker: remember when devzone migrated to psql? :p
09:14<TrueBrain>anyway, andythenorth, the dev vm frosch made should be enough to work on anything BaNaNaS related, as far as I understood
09:14<andythenorth>k
09:14<andythenorth>I don’t even know how to start bananas
09:14<TrueBrain>if you need anything else/more, just poke me, and we will see what I can fix up for you :)
09:14<andythenorth>thanks :)
09:15<andythenorth>not today, today is lego + kids day
09:15<TrueBrain>hmm .. lega ...
09:15<frosch123>it's already running in the vm
09:15<TrueBrain>lego
09:15<TrueBrain>typing is hard :P
09:15<frosch123>but well, the vm is from before musa
09:15<andythenorth>has anyone else got any bananas (website) ideas?
09:15*andythenorth ponders reskinning it for amusement
09:15<frosch123>iirc the vm used psql, so no idea whether musad will actually work there
09:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, I do :)
09:16*andythenorth could apply Bootstrap styles, as http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
09:16<TrueBrain>might be nice to keep everything in the same style
09:17<TrueBrain>but I might be biased :D I hate that so many websites look like Bootstrap these days ..
09:17<andythenorth>there’s no real need to change
09:17<TrueBrain>it is like Frontpage all over again :P
09:17<andythenorth>Bootstrap can be made not like Bootstrap
09:17<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you could - however - be creative and suggest a new style for the whole web presence ;)
09:17<@planetmaker>suggest means, implementing, of course :P
09:17<TrueBrain>the current design is from 2008 I believe
09:17<TrueBrain>a total redesign is suggestable ;) :D
09:18<andythenorth>not by April 1
09:18<andythenorth>but yeah
09:18<@planetmaker>we could hire V453000 for some design elements. But he's been lagging with supplying the promised ones to #openttdcoop :P
09:18<TrueBrain>no, that would take a bit longer ;)
09:18<TrueBrain>hire suggests paying .. :P
09:18<@planetmaker>we pay with fame ;)
09:18<TrueBrain>that is not "hire", that is "volunteering" :P
09:18<TrueBrain>just saying :D
09:18<andythenorth>how is OpenTTD website stuff deployed?
09:18<frosch123>V is paid in beer
09:18<andythenorth>is it on a tag?
09:19<andythenorth>or is it just manual update to rev?
09:19<@planetmaker>true. beer
09:19<TrueBrain>svn update
09:19<TrueBrain>:D
09:19<frosch123>andythenorth: you have a vm with the complete website :p
09:19<andythenorth>I know
09:19<andythenorth>I haven’t looked in it though
09:19<TrueBrain>we used to run test and live, but it turned out the release cycles were so close together
09:19<TrueBrain>there was no use :P
09:19<andythenorth>is there any staging environment
09:19<andythenorth>?
09:19<TrueBrain>not anymore
09:19<TrueBrain>took more effort to maintain the test env than anything else :P
09:20<TrueBrain>(we are not mission critical etc)
09:20<@planetmaker>hm
09:20<TrueBrain>but then again, there hasnt been any real work on it either
09:20<TrueBrain>when there is some real work, which needs reviewing by others, we can dust off the test env
09:20<TrueBrain>shouldnt be a real issue
09:20<TrueBrain>I think test-www is only not routed .. but is still online etc :P
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09:22<Samu>hi
09:23<andythenorth>I can probably open a port in my router to show people local changes
09:23<andythenorth>staging is useful for getting an opinion
09:23<TrueBrain>yeah; like I said, we can always start it up if you want to
09:23<TrueBrain>not a real issue
09:24<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, that's why I suggested access to andy on some test VM. Easier to communicate. And possibly collaborate on that
09:24<@planetmaker>test VM as hosted on our server
09:24<TrueBrain>lets get there when we get there, tbh
09:25<frosch123>planetmaker: we already have a test vm
09:25<TrueBrain>he can start on his own VM; we can always launch a test VM on the server when he has results to show
09:25<frosch123>there is litterally nothing that prevents doing bananas website development
09:25<andythenorth>except lego
09:25<@planetmaker>kk
09:25<andythenorth>and a 5 year old
09:25<frosch123>it just needs someone to stop talking and start working :p
09:25<andythenorth>and a 3 year old
09:25<TrueBrain>lol @ frosch :D
09:25<@planetmaker>:P
09:25<andythenorth>two poos cleaned up since we started talking :P
09:25<andythenorth>you have no idea
09:26<TrueBrain>and seriously, if you start working on it, and have something to show, just poke me and we arrange something
09:26<TrueBrain>it takes relative little effort to setup the test env
09:26<andythenorth>is there any project tracker for the website?
09:26<TrueBrain>in what sense/way?
09:26<andythenorth>or should I just randomly work on stuff?
09:26<andythenorth>devzone project
09:27<frosch123>there is a project an fs and a project on devzone
09:27<TrueBrain>not much more clear :D
09:27<TrueBrain>but yeah, bugs.openttd.org has a Website category
09:27<TrueBrain>not of a lot of use, but .. its there :P
09:27<frosch123>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?project=4&do=index&switch=1
09:28<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-website
09:30<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-testenv <- that's the old vm
09:30<frosch123>hmm, repository is empty though :p
09:30<TrueBrain>that is just hateful :P
09:31<@planetmaker>hm...
09:31<frosch123>either it got lost on some devzone migration
09:31<frosch123>or i never pushed :p
09:31<@planetmaker>I *think* the latter. Due to safety concerns
09:32*andythenorth not so good at Latin: “Ensete ventricosum"
09:32<@planetmaker>banana ;)
09:32<TrueBrain>.....
09:32<TrueBrain>really? :P
09:32<frosch123>hmm, maybe musa was already around
09:33<frosch123>no other reason to pick such name otherwise :p
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09:39<@planetmaker>frosch123, definitely, in no backup however old it is, there is a commit in the openttd-testdev repository
09:40<@planetmaker>at least for what we still have. We've snapshots back to August 2013 of the repos
09:41<frosch123>yup, my repo has 2 commits, but no push location
09:43<@planetmaker>neither of those two projects is set as public. So... should rather be safe, I think
09:43<frosch123>was more a rhodecode issue back then or something
09:45<@planetmaker>yeah, just looking there
09:45<Samu>hi
09:46<Samu>here's the schematics for canal ownership: https://eag5jg.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pxAxqMQ1TyZ4Qgq0SsEQgyNktHiQtFSZSTOWeTGWj-7QO1wbNrRSh1oIn_iabAgtWY8PKOorF0lLcr0ErjjLGhnWcN6V-MvqSKYI1ISubMDUzucZTX5eeUGbakLeuActLTuNHqYoEPjEcrc5S93FP8A/canal%20owner%20bits%20table.png?psid=1
09:46<@planetmaker>but I can set projects there to private, too
09:46<Samu>now i can start asking questions how to code :)
09:46<@planetmaker>thus... can you - without login - see them now, both openttd-website as well as openttd-testenv?
09:47<@planetmaker>I can't, but ... :)
09:48<frosch123>both give my a login prompt :)
09:49<@planetmaker>do you have a rhodecode one?
09:49<@planetmaker>hm, yes :P
09:49<frosch123>pushed
09:49<Samu>locks waterclass is canal or river right?
09:50<@planetmaker>ok... so adding andy to the project people there?
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10:13<andythenorth>Pokka o/
10:19<supermop>hey is it better to organize sprites as Tram / Class / Segment / running or loading / livery or some other hierarchy?
10:24<@planetmaker>supermop, whatever suits you, really
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10:39<supermop>ok
10:39<supermop>i should get to bed
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11:33<Samu>uhmm...
11:34<Samu>I'm going to create a topic
11:38<Samu>going to concentrate all my ideas in one place, one topic
11:42<Samu>which objects can be built on water?
11:42<Samu>Class A tile type
11:42<Samu>can't think of any
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11:48<Samu>oops i dropped
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12:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27175 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-03-01 17:46:04 UTC)
12:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 14 changes by arnau
12:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
12:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 3 changes by telk5093
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13:28<Samu>so here's my gigantic topic
13:28<Samu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=72691&p=1143661#p1143661
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13:29<Samu>anyone cares to look?
13:37<@Alberth>so your unused bit is not unused at all, for you :)
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13:38<Samu>yeah
13:38<@Alberth>which means the reported bug is not a bug, but the first step in your patch
13:39<@Alberth>ie you should redefine the bits as being used, and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk
13:39<@Alberth>(ie what you did in your patch)
13:40<@Alberth>except you didn't update the documentation, probably
13:41<@Alberth>also, you need a place to store your changes in the code somewhere
13:41<@Alberth>although for now, it could be at your machine
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14:00<Samu>i'm storing in OneDrive
14:00<Samu>those patch-files
14:01<Samu>synced to my computer
14:01<Samu>"and thus fix the demolishing that happens in trunk", what do you mean with this?
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14:03<@Alberth>in trunk, the bits are not used, and can get any value they like
14:03<@Alberth>in your patch, you have given them meaning, so you care about the value of the bits
14:03<Samu>ah, i see
14:03<@Alberth>thus you should fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value
14:03<Samu>have to edit that html document
14:04<@Alberth>your patch in 6235 is not a bug in the trunk code
14:06<Samu>fix all cases where the bits are assigned a value, isn't that what I've done with that patch?
14:06<Samu>ok, i got it on my machine
14:06<Samu>you can delete the bug report
14:06<@Alberth>yes, but the patch doesn't belong in the bug tracker, as trunk has no meaning for the bits
14:10<@planetmaker>that patch in FS only starts to make sense in the context of *some* other patch(es) which utilize that bit and make use of that meaning
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14:29<Samu>hmm interesting
14:29<Samu>• m3 bits 7..4: owner of road type 1 (tram); OWNER_NONE (10) is stored as OWNER_TOWN (0F)
14:29<Samu>this, for roads
14:29<Samu>so it's possible :)
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16:00<@Terkhen>good night
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17:23<Wolf01>'night
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18:24<supermop>roll out of bed - first thing to do is wake up computer and start a render
18:24<supermop>now to make coffee
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19:14<supermop>come back upstairs from coffee to see that the render is wrong...
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20:47<supermop>this 7x7 512px/tile render took over an hour
20:47<supermop>the 6x6 512px/tiles ones take about 6-8 minutes....
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20:57<supermop>yo Pikkaphone
20:57<Pikkaphone>Guten tag
20:58<Pikkaphone>this bus sure has the rattles
21:01<supermop>bus rapid transit?
21:01<supermop>or regular bus
21:05<Pikkaphone>nothing rapid about old north road
21:05<Pikkaphone>regular
21:10<supermop>i never manange to get on a newish bus here
21:11<Pikkaphone>good old cng scania
21:11<Pikkaphone>I used to drive these ones
21:12<Pikkaphone>I guess now the b10ls and mercs have gone these are the second oldest buses on the network
21:14<supermop>the old ones here are something i didn't recognize
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21:39<chillcore>good morning all
21:39<chillcore>wakie wakie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MteSlpxCpo
21:39<supermop>hi
21:39<chillcore>:)
21:40<chillcore>hello
21:49<chillcore>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7PS_UN8Lo
21:50<chillcore>last one for today promissed ;)
22:01<chillcore>hmm ... not that I have implemented yet but just thinking about sliders from a users point of view ...
22:01<chillcore>if I replace button by a slider would it be annoying if double cliking a slider box opens a querybox?
22:02<chillcore>or would it be better to keep the button seperatly?
22:03<chillcore>querybox can be opened by clicking the label too but most peps would not expect this to be standard behavior ... it is mentoned in tooltips but still most peeps don't wait for that to pop up
22:03<chillcore>opinions?
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds totally weird
22:05<chillcore>ye ... that is why I ask
22:07<chillcore>I do not intend the click label functionality ... it is kinda convenient behaviour when missing the button with the pointer
22:07<chillcore>and hello eddi
22:08<chillcore>intend to remove*
22:09<chillcore>I'll start with trying to add sliders while pondering some more
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>didn't the settings gui add "..." buttons for opening the edit boxes?
22:13<chillcore>hmm ... I do not know really, I have a label and a button with the value it (times n)
22:14<chillcore>clicking either calls a querybox
22:14<chillcore>this works fine but sliders would be more convenient for quick and dirty messing about
22:16<chillcore>in the settings gui you click the value (which are not on buttons) ... IIRC
22:16<chillcore>^^^ or you use the little arrows
22:16<chillcore>but I can not use them ... int32
22:18<chillcore>I could but I would get sued for causing RSI most likely :P
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm, maybe thaat "..." button was a change that was discussed but not implemented
22:18<chillcore>lemme check
22:20<chillcore>I see dropdowns, arrows, values and toggleboxes
22:21<chillcore>the explanations pane could use some downsizing TBH, it takes up half the gui for just a few lines
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>it probably loops over all descriptions, and resizes to the longest one
22:26<chillcore>eddi: no "..." to be seen, unless I am overlooking it ;)
22:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, then not...
22:27<chillcore>maybe yes ... I have not checked what the longest is ... checking if I see one that fills up the box
22:28<chillcore>hmm brb ... the chat window keeps popping to top (again)
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22:35<chillcore>there are two cargodist settings that fill up the box almost completely.
22:36<chillcore>blow that 50% is max for a few ... "non stop orders" and "manual industry placement"
22:36<chillcore>below*
22:37<supermop>apparently a blu/purple color shifting car paint material was included with this circa 2008 renderer for one of the tutorial examples
22:37<chillcore>I don't think that can be changed easily other then by shortening the discription for cargodist
22:38<supermop>i must now make all trams in color shifting paint. even though I dont think it will really have any interesting effect when using parallel projection etc...
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>no, the description panel just needs a sensible maximum, like 20% of the window size
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>and add a scroll bar
22:38<supermop>i guess if the renderer came out in 2010 it would have been matte black instead
22:41<chillcore>eddi: that would be the most sensible solution yes
22:42<supermop>do they refill the sand on trams from above? some of the trams ive seen drive by and sand all over pat of the roof
22:42<supermop>have sand all over part of...
22:43<chillcore>just a guess but I think at 30% or 40% most descriptions would fit without having to scroll
22:43<chillcore>^^^ of the current explanations panel size that is
22:47<chillcore>supermop: I would not be suprised if they filled from the top now ... they used to be under the seats and filled manually but I guess that would be considered too labour instensive (read expensive) these days?
22:47<chillcore>not a tram driver me hehe
22:51<supermop>the siemens trams here store it in two colums in the walls just behind the driver here - there is a little window where you can see the sand level, i assume the other new trams are similar
22:51<supermop>but even on the 80s trams i occasionally see sand on the roof
22:54<chillcore>well yeah I was six in '80 so 'used' is in that pespective. :P
22:54<supermop>ok just looked at a combino out the window. there is a generic box on he roof over the area where you can see the sand window inside
22:55<supermop>cant tell if its electrical or if sand goes in there
22:55<supermop>unlike the citadis i saw a few minutes ago i did not see any on the roof of this one
22:55<chillcore>damn I am getting old ... turning 26 for the 15th time this year ...
22:56<supermop>haha
22:57<supermop>there were no tras in the city where i lived in the 80s
22:57<supermop>trams
22:57<supermop>unless you count the year i lived in boston in '89, and count the T green line as a tram
22:58<chillcore>next time I get on a tram I'll ask how they do it overhere. you made me curious now
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22:58<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't really used the tram in some years now. but i only remember under-the-seat storage of sand
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>the 80's generation of trams they phased out last year or so
23:01<chillcore>supermop: first operator here ... Les Tramways de la ville de Gand (1874-1897) ... :P
23:01<chillcore>^^^ horsies
23:02<supermop>im reading about the Boeing LRVs that were used in boston when i lived there now...
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23:15<chillcore>eddi: If I made the label a button and replace the current button with a slider (displaying the value) ... would that make more sense?
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably the wrong time to make such decisions
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>make the slider just a slider, and open the edit box when you click on the value
23:19<chillcore>maybe too soon yes ... it is just that if/when I make such change I need to go through all my patches and adjust comments and tooltips again
23:19<chillcore>but you are right that I should get sliders working first
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>i meant time of day/state of awakeness :p
23:39<chillcore>that too ... ;)
23:40<Flygon>Wait
23:40<Flygon>supermop was born outside of Australia? O_o
---Logclosed Mon Mar 02 00:00:35 2015