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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-05

---Logopened Thu Mar 05 00:00:40 2015
00:12-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1048:5400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has joined #openttd
00:15<chillcore>wood morning all
00:17<chillcore>wakie wakie interwebz ...
00:17<chillcore>^^^ one of belgiums best guitar players and maybe in the world too
00:19<chillcore>hello supermop o/
00:20<supermop>hows it going chillcore ?
00:21<chillcore>fine fine thank you for asking, and you?
00:22<supermop>had to frantically design a fake suburban home over the past couple days, now have a lull in work for another day
00:23<chillcore>nice to hear. did I see you discussing tileheight with V the other day?
00:23<supermop>want to get a quick a rough version of a road/track track grf out in next day or so
00:23<supermop>so i need to do the slopes
00:23<chillcore>1 level is 8 pixels at zoom level 1
00:23<supermop>i ended up calculating it geometrically
00:23<chillcore>vehicles should not be higher than 7
00:24<supermop>because in a 3d program, the height is not the true hight
00:24<chillcore>yeah indeed
00:24<supermop>if i saw 1 px is 1m
00:24<supermop>and draw an 8m tall pole,
00:25<supermop>it will be less than 8px due to looking at it from an angle
00:25<supermop>so drew some circles and triangles, and trimmed some lines between them to get the right height to use
00:26<chillcore>still if you make vehicles the same height they might come peeking through the roofs of tunnel entrances and floors of bridges
00:26<supermop>of course
00:26<chillcore>I believe you can see this when building bridges over objects in trunk ;)
00:26<chillcore>last time I checked anyway
00:27<supermop>there are work arounds for that, but drawing tram tracks at wrong slope cannot be fixed
00:27<supermop>for example the default tunnel use an illusion to be taller than 8 px
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00:28<chillcore>wrong slopes? surely you can not build them on steep slopes?
00:28<supermop>was the ability to bridge objects of specific heights ever added?
00:28<chillcore>you can set the height of an object in newgrf
00:29<supermop>no i mean, if i draw a sloped tile that is 7px tall instead of 8, it will never look ok in game
00:29<chillcore>ah is see
00:29<supermop>so i needed to be sure of height before i drew the slopes
00:29<chillcore>8 pixels
00:29<chillcore>aat zoom 1
00:30<supermop>now the issue is, it is hard to make the metal of the tracks look good
00:30<chillcore>don't make it too shiny ;)
00:30<supermop>in real life it changes from grey to brown to almost blue depending on the light and way you look at it
00:31<chillcore>but yeah metalic objects are rather difficult to get right
00:31<supermop>but because there is no perspective in game you always see a surface from exact same angle with same light
00:31<supermop>so it looks flat
00:31<chillcore>ah like that
00:32<supermop>but if you add some extra fake shiny, you get the problem that overhead wires have
00:32<supermop>the shine repeats regularly every tile
00:32<chillcore>I always seem to forget trams are there
00:32<chillcore>because there is no default set for them, unless that has changed too
00:33<supermop>never will be default trams unfortunately
00:33<supermop>im working on a tram set
00:33<chillcore>ye ... but never say never :P
00:33<supermop>but now i need better tracks for them to run on
00:35<chillcore>hehe, what are you using for 3d prog? just curious
00:35<Flygon>Why did I read that as 3D Prog Rock
00:35<supermop>rhinoceros 4
00:35<supermop>cannot afford to upgrade to 5
00:35<chillcore>music that is at level 15 playing flygon?
00:35<Flygon> Also relevant
00:36<chillcore>or rather *playing at level 15
00:36<Flygon>chillcore: Dunno!
00:36<Flygon>I mean
00:36<Flygon>I might stream later
00:36<Flygon>But it might be a different OST
00:36<Flygon>So probably not Plok
00:37<Flygon>Probably Journey to Silius
00:37<chillcore>hehe nice warning on tram
00:38<Supercheese>So many dumb ways to die
00:38<Flygon> Full sized Tram
00:39<chillcore>ye I see that a lot, peeps passing i front of tram thinking it will stop on a dime like busses do
00:39<Flygon>Wait, I'm confused
00:39<Flygon>What nationality are you? O_o
00:39<Flygon>Your IP is like, secretive
00:40<Flygon>And I doubt you're British
00:40<Flygon>The British don't know what a Tram is
00:40<Flygon>They think they're just buses with different wheels
00:40<Flygon>Unless they live in Blackpool...
00:40<chillcore>belgian ... yeah I noticed that too since yeterday ... IP
00:40<Flygon>In which case they think Trams are actually Landboats
00:40<chillcore>it showed a few days back
00:40<chillcore>me likes
00:40<Flygon>Belgian, alright
00:40<Flygon>Explains a lot :3
00:41<chillcore>file not found ...
00:42<chillcore>most likely my browser being locked down good :)
00:42<Flygon>Damn x.x
00:43<chillcore>typing it manually on ipad ...
00:43<chillcore>not locked down so much
00:43<chillcore>read: browser on pc forces https
00:46<chillcore>hmm blank page ... maybe I need to allow pics hehe
00:48<chillcore>ye that was it ... needed to re-enable them and reboot pad
00:49<chillcore>cool tram
00:53<chillcore>whish they had warning like that here too ... but advertising wifi on the tram seems more important
00:54<chillcore>talking of public transport ... our gov in all its wiseness has decided on an index freeze for incomes
00:55<chillcore>while the price for a single trip went up 50%
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00:56<chillcore>we were doing better during that record breaking period without government :P
00:56<chillcore>we the people I mean
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00:57<chillcore>anyhoo ...
00:59<Flygon>chillcore: Still bet the jobs market is better than Australia :P
01:00<supermop>hmm rails just end up blue trying to make them reflective
01:01<supermop>which i guess is fine, but looks weird in a game where you never see the sky
01:01<chillcore><supermop> rhinoceros 4 cannot afford to upgrade to 5 <- try unity? it is free till you make 10k with your project?
01:01<chillcore>flygon: I do not know about that, unemplayment rate is pretty high here
01:02<chillcore>like everywhere I gues
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01:02<chillcore>supermop: make sky darker?
01:03<supermop>Flygon: 6% would be considered very low in many countries
01:03<chillcore>it is higher here I believe, I honestly have no clue on exact figures
01:03<Flygon>It's still impossible to get a job here >_>
01:03<supermop>in spain it is close to 30% for young peoplw
01:04<chillcore>6.8 of total pop, 13.5% of peeps that should be working
01:05<chillcore>depends how you count really
01:05<V453000> hate this already
01:05<V453000>asdf and it doesnt come up as a link
01:05<supermop>V453000: iron is a pain
01:05<chillcore>hmm no wait that is dutchland
01:05<supermop>what color is iron
01:06<supermop>grey isn't a real color
01:06<V453000>you mean a texture?
01:06<chillcore>7.3% for belgium
01:06<supermop>by that i mean, put a not rusty piece of iron outside and you think "it looks dark grey"
01:06<supermop>put it inside and you think "it looks dark grey"
01:07<V453000>something like that I guess, reflective I would assume
01:07<supermop>but outside it is blue and inside it is yellow
01:07<chillcore>iron is brown-ish with spots of shiny on the inside of bends and on top
01:07<supermop>because that is what it is reflecting
01:07<V453000> buuuut eh, the surface usually is brushed / rusty / scratched / ...
01:07<supermop>but we correct for that
01:07<V453000>yeah joys of reflective shit
01:08<supermop>what im saying is, something reflective metal in game - even brushed - is going to be essentially the color of its environment
01:08<supermop>looks normal with your eyes ouutside, but as a sprite it looks weird
01:08<supermop>just too blue
01:09<V453000>yes :)
01:09<V453000>especially with orthographic projection it is just weird
01:09<supermop>idk when i see chrome trim on a car i never think, that metal is blue on top and asphalt colored on bottom - i think it's silver
01:09<V453000>just dont make it reflect that much :)
01:09<supermop>but silver is not a color
01:10<V453000>atm I have a very reflective material for steel-ish
01:10<V453000>no fancy shit, no maps, 154/255 reflectivity
01:10<supermop>these rails look too boring as grey-brown
01:10<V453000>no fresnel reflections
01:10<V453000>give them a texture :)
01:10<V453000>textures for everything
01:10<V453000>it doesnt need to make sense, it needs to look fancy
01:11<supermop>but because most of what you see on tram tracks is only the top flat surface you only get one color
01:11<V453000>yes sure
01:11<V453000>reflection maps also exist :P
01:12<supermop>right now ive got bronze color that fades to rflective grey at shallow angles, with slight hammered bump
01:12<V453000>my current reflective shit
01:13<V453000>eh details :P
01:13<supermop>pondering filleting all edges so the curvature is reflective an tops are dull
01:13<V453000>yeah, chamfers and fillets add a nice touch
01:14<supermop>chrome pipes are reflective?
01:14<V453000>idk, for now they are XD
01:14<supermop>looks good as accent on a drab vehicle
01:14<supermop>chrome stripes on the road looks odd
01:14<chillcore>that chrome on that little pipe looks very good V
01:15<chillcore>too shiny for rails though
01:15<V453000>it is a very simple material, nothing complex
01:15<V453000>yeah on tracks it wont look good
01:15<supermop>hells yes chrome the whole damn train
01:16<supermop>there is a color shifting metallic carpaint as example material in flamingo
01:16<V453000>my rails
01:16<V453000>bottom rusty, top reflective
01:16<supermop>i want to make trams available in that as secret livery
01:17<V453000>texture is basically this
01:17<V453000>secret livery
01:17<chillcore>that may be a nice easter egg
01:17<V453000>I dont like single-no-texture-material things because it means you have to make the model very detailed to make it interesting
01:18<V453000>the textures sell a lot
01:18<chillcore>that and lighting ye
01:19<V453000>eh idk, lighting is important but in case of openttd I prefer to keep one sun
01:19<V453000>and thats it
01:19<V453000>proper unwrapped texture just makes it look real
01:19<chillcore>usually less is more ... and depends what you are doing really
01:22<V453000>well some 3-point lighting etc is nice stuff, but yeah ... also, more interesting lighting means your scene has to stay at that point if you want to render various things
01:22<V453000>for example RAWR scene is gigantic all over the place
01:24<chillcore>most of the detail comes from the textures
01:25<chillcore>the body is "just" three boxes
01:25<V453000>what the actual fuck though XD
01:25<chillcore>could not sleep one night ... :P
01:26<chillcore>it is a modified creeper lol
01:26<chillcore>except it does not go boom
01:26<V453000>I was more talking about realistic textures vs
01:27<V453000>with this.
01:27<chillcore>that looks nice too
01:28<chillcore>rails are almost spot on, them could use a little noise really
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01:53<supermop>hard to get much texture to show up on a rail though
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02:01<V453000>yeah if you got them dived into concrete as tram tracks
02:01<V453000>buuut still, can make some difference
02:02<V453000>ädd it as a reflection map at some low effect perhaps
02:02<V453000>for more variety
02:04<chillcore>you've got wally (or similar) to create tiled textures supermop?
02:05<supermop>im using a hammered metal bumpmap to alter reflectivity
02:05<supermop>whats wally?
02:05<chillcore>j you do not ... it was very pouplar to make nice looking HL1 and quake textures
02:05<V453000>photoshop eazy chillcore :P
02:06<chillcore>I don't have photoshop ... way too expensive for my hobbying stuffs
02:06<chillcore>and I do not model as much as I used too
02:07<chillcore>^^^ not that I was very good at it but I liked messing about a lot
02:11<chillcore>@calc 281 * 20
02:11<@DorpsGek>chillcore: 5620
02:13<chillcore>not sure if the link is dead or not supermop
02:17<supermop>ah nice
02:17<supermop>maybe i should add sand in the bottom of the tram tracks
02:17<supermop>i need to work on my concrete textures
02:18<supermop>beer time
02:44<chillcore>woot found another bugsie ...
02:45<chillcore>any noise parameters should ever be 0 ... or map becomes pancake
02:47<chillcore>maybe some day I will be able to explain too :P
02:55<V453000>browsing through the 32bpp thread I get a bit sad
02:55<V453000>1. so much stuff lost
02:55<V453000>2. zephyris actually had nice models, in contrast to what zbase is
02:55<supermop>scales were all over the place then
02:55<WhiteHand>3. it's not 8bpp
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02:56<supermop>also i understand zbase as different that zeph's 32bpp stuff
02:56<BobDendry>I kid ofcourse.
02:56<supermop>zbase is a coherent style, not intended to be at all photo-realistic, ad intended to produce a uniform 32b base set expediently
02:57<chillcore>lost is relative needs someone coding the licensed sprites
02:57<chillcore>there is a repo on coop?
02:57<supermop>i think the way zbase turned out was certainly intentional
02:58<V453000>intentional, sure, but graphically horrible
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03:00<chillcore>sure IIRC zephyris requested no help modelling untilll he got things complete? at least when he started
03:00<chillcore>not sure what his stance is now
03:01<supermop>he was working on a different base set
03:01<chillcore>ah ok ... I have been gone for a while so I am kinda out of the loop
03:04<V453000>there isnt really much to miss
03:04<V453000>got stuff done as version 1, end of work
03:04<V453000>of course not exactly that, but kind of
03:04<chillcore>I tried importing one of his trains in Unity last year (messing about to see what the unity fuzz was about) but it is not one file one model so that did not turn out very well
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03:07<chillcore>at least I know that unity imports blender models just fine, even if there were no textures ;)
03:10<chillcore>I guess zbase is made using some script, did not dive into it much as one can only do so much
03:11<juzza1>in the case of large blender projects, assets are usually linked across multiple files
03:13<juzza1>but yeah i think there's a lot of other magic too in zbase rendering
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03:21<chillcore>ye this one model had like 4 trains in it, when loaded in unity they were all 4 in the same spot while in blender they were not
03:22<chillcore>no much experience with blender ...
03:22<chillcore>nor with unity for that matter
03:24<chillcore>hmm maybe I will not need a second array afterall for small maps ... yay
03:25<chillcore>testing more seeds to test ...
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03:31<chillcore>yep ... suspicion confirmed ... just need to exclude zero form the params now and force it to being 1 if entered manually
03:34<chillcore>might still need a seprate array to hold values but I do not need to only use six params for small maps, much easier to maintain afterwards
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05:03<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> my current reflective shit <-- that engine needs a leading and trailing axle
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05:34<supermop>can i provide tramway and road already composited together?
05:34<supermop>and likewise tram by itself
05:35<chillcore>int32 ForceOneIfZero(int32 x) { <- this is obvious what it does or it needs documentation?
05:35<chillcore>you should not supermop ... you can build tramways on tiles without road ;)
05:35<chillcore>you could but ...
05:36<blathijs>chillcore: Force one what?
05:36<blathijs>chillcore: Does it do if (x == 0) return 1; else return x; ?
05:36<supermop>i know, but can i have a separate tile for combines, so tram on road looks different than tram by itself
05:37<chillcore>yes blathijs, perlin noise params are int32 at the moment but entering any param (of 9) as zero will result in a flat map
05:38<chillcore>except I do ... if (x == 0) x = 1; return x;
05:39<chillcore>will change it to what you wrote if prefered
05:39<juzza1>is ?: ternary not enough for that?
05:40<chillcore>yeah except that in my case the if else is skipped if not 0 so it should be faster?µ
05:41<chillcore>not sure ...
05:41<blathijs>chillcore: Doesn't really matter, it all looks the same after compiler optimizations probably
05:45<chillcore>I could move it out of the window class and make it a global function, if there is a use for it. for now it resides just above OnQueryTextFinished where it is used
05:46<chillcore>and it is documented on first call too
05:47<juzza1>supermop: would indicate that it's possible
05:47<juzza1>from sprite 1327
05:48<juzza1>or rather, you _have_ to provide two sets of sprites
05:49<Eddi|zuHause><supermop> can i provide tramway and road already composited together? <-- might make difficulties on road crossings when not all road bits are covered by tram, or level crossings
05:54<juzza1>right, the other set of sprites is only meant for compositing over roads
05:56<supermop>i thought there were no tram only level crossings
05:56<supermop>it always creates a road tile if you try to build level crossing with tram
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i mean graphically
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the level crossing is drawn by first drawing the road, then the rail, then the tram
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: so you end up drawing the road over the rails, making the rails invisible
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05:58<supermop>i can provide tram alone easily, was jus hoping for a cleaver work around to let me tram other tram related stuff on the road part
06:02<chillcore>you can do that without providing road bits?
06:02<supermop>i dont know
06:03<chillcore>that way if someone chooses another road set your extras are still there and the actual used road set remains uniform in style
06:04<chillcore>do your extras on a transparant layer just like the actual tramtracks?
06:04<chillcore>not sure if you can detect if track is being built on road or not ... depends that really?
06:05<supermop>if tram is built on its own through a city, do the sidewalks on it come from the tramway grf, the road grf, or the baseset?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose from the tram grf
06:06<juzza1>it comes from the set defines the road graphics
06:10<juzza1>"tram grf" or "road grf" could override any baseset graphics, but if you assume only "road grf" provides road graphics, then the road grf would define the sidewalks
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06:27<supermop>cant get these rounded corners to look good
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's because of the pixels
06:34<supermop>i imagine it may be better to just roughly model cobblestones going around a radius than trying to map this image i took to a quarter circle
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07:28<@planetmaker><supermop> can i provide tramway and road already composited together? <-- no, not really. Tram tracks are separate and always an overlay
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07:45<chillcore>bbl o/
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10:12<Samu>my afterload is wrong isn't it?
10:12<Samu>I'm reverting this
10:13<@planetmaker>fixing might be more appropriate
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>all you need is a "for all tiles [ getoldowner; setnewowner; }"
10:14<Samu>better revert first
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>possibly a "fixremainingbit"
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>but there are more things wrong with your patch
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>in setowner you write more bits than you are allowed to
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>and you don't assert on "owner is not 0-14 or NONE"
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>which is the whole basis of your "we assume that we can write this in 4 bits" ploy
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10:29<Samu>reverted Afterload to trunk version, then patched the industry bit thing
10:29<Samu> if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(195)) {
10:29<Samu> for (TileIndex t = 0; t < map_size; t++) {
10:30<Samu>and now... I'm a bit lost what to write
10:30<Samu>get the old owner, how?
10:32<Samu>get the old owner which uses 5 bits
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>you know how.
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>because you already wrote it down
10:32<Samu>set new owner to use 4 bits, and... something is amiss
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, i told you several things that might be amiss
10:39<Samu>if ((IsTileType(t, MP_STATION) || IsTileType(t, MP_WATER) || IsTileType(t, MP_OBJECT)) && GetWaterClass(t) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL) {
10:40<Samu>Owner old = something 5 bits
10:40<Samu>set owner new = something 4 bits?
10:40<Samu>damn, i hope this is what you mean
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>you already have functions for both of these jobs
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>use them
10:42<Samu>how come, I don't
10:43<Samu>i can't put GetWaterClass at tile_map.h
10:43<Samu>but i can in afterload
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>but why would you?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>anything related with water, you should put in water_map.h
10:45<Samu>tile_map.h function is incomplete
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>then make a SetWaterTileOwner, and find all places that use SetTileOwner to check for water first
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>but that has nothing to do with converting old savegames
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11:06<Samu>didn't work
11:08<Samu>error: expected a declaration
11:10<Samu>map_size is undefined
11:10<Samu>I don't know what to do
11:11<Samu>why is it so hard to do somethnig so easy
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11:25<Samu>how did I do it before? I don't understand, I just don't
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11:25<Samu>so depressed
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11:29<Leander_>are you sure you are assigning the values in your if ?
11:30<Leander_>I'm pretty sure you meant == instead of =
11:30<Samu>fixing it
11:31<Samu>where am I supposed to put this piece
11:32<Samu>when i put it before the first GetTileOwner
11:32<Samu>doesn't even compile
11:33<Samu>at line 425 -> error, expected a declaration
11:34<Samu>at line 433 -> error, identifier 'map_size' is undefined
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11:53<Samu>sorry, i can't do it
11:54<Samu>can't even boot now
11:58<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
12:03<Samu>hi :(
12:06<LordAro>Samu: suggestion: read the errors more carefully
12:06<LordAro>well, the first error message
12:07<Samu>too many errors to count
12:07<LordAro>the first error message on your screen
12:07<@Alberth>you have more than one first error??
12:08<Samu>if i place the part at line 3000
12:08<Samu>it can actually compile
12:09<@planetmaker>hihi, Alberth :)
12:09<@planetmaker>beware of time-space configurations with loops. Difficult to define time then, and thus first ;)
12:09<LordAro>"it compiles, ship it!"
12:10<@planetmaker>LordAro: I tried that with NML :P
12:10<Samu>Assertion failed
12:10<Samu>same as yesterday
12:10<@planetmaker>package maintainers complain(ed) :P
12:10<Samu>so i know this is not the place to put
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12:10<Samu>have to place it somewhere else
12:11<@Alberth>I tried packaging a python package too this week, it failed quite hard
12:11<Samu>pool.type hpp line 113
12:11<LordAro>Samu: without seeing your code, or the exact error message, we cant help much
12:11<Samu>oh, it's horrible
12:11<Samu>ok, copy paste
12:12<LordAro>paste the i
12:12<LordAro>output of the diff
12:12<LordAro>svn/git/whatever command
12:14<Samu>the error is too many to count
12:14<@planetmaker>did you eventuelly succeed, Alberth ?
12:15<Samu>i have GetTileOwner incomplete
12:15<Samu>at tile_map
12:15<Samu>wanted to GetWaterClass, but it doesn't work inside tile_map
12:15<@Alberth>planetmaker: well, manually populating a directory, and 'tar czvf' always works :p
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12:16<Samu>if the GetTileOwner function is incomplete, how can I work on the Afterload
12:16<Samu>i dont get this
12:17<@Alberth>at some point, I may try it again, but for 3 people, it's just tmwftlb
12:17<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah, likely
12:18<@Alberth>python packaging is quite messy at the moment
12:18<@planetmaker>you can try with NML. There's three package maintainers currently sad about it :P
12:18<@Alberth>yeah :(
12:18<@planetmaker>i(t) must have broken it somewhen during the py2to3 conversion
12:19<@Alberth>I had problems with quite elementary stuff, ie adding non-python files to the package just fails
12:19<@Alberth>no reason why is given
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12:20<@planetmaker>for that, you might look indeed at nml. That part seems to work
12:20-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
12:21<@planetmaker>they all need to be mentioned in the
12:21<@planetmaker>and possibly like: ext_modules = [Extension("nml_lz77", ["nml/_lz77.c"])],
12:21<@Alberth>hmm, maybe that's it, the documentation seems to claim it's not needed
12:22<@planetmaker>and/or entry_points
12:22<@Alberth>in the past, simple distutils did work
12:22<@planetmaker>but nml's is also more a try&error than anything else :P
12:23<@planetmaker>hack, read, try, cry, read, hack, try, cry, read, hack, heureka! Or something like that was the process
12:23<@Alberth>yeah, while not working: try random improvement
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12:24<Samu>i'm in a similar situation
12:24<@planetmaker>well... let's say: semi-random, inspired by python wiki and stackoverflow and similar
12:24<Samu>the more i look, the less i know
12:24<@planetmaker>that actually was different when I tackled ;)
12:25<@Alberth>Samu: that's where you start studying the things you use
12:25<@planetmaker>I thought I started to get it :P
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12:25<@Alberth>probably you did, so they had to change it again :p
12:25<@planetmaker>nah, I didn't properly test the source bundles. I made sure it built properly, though from
12:26<@planetmaker>it just looked alright and I assumed it was alright :P
12:26<@planetmaker>It shows that assuming != knowing ;)
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12:31<Samu>How did I do it before?
12:31<Samu>why do you say I have it done already?
12:31<Samu>I don't understand what you mean with that...
12:32<Samu>I haven't done anything that works
12:32<Samu>and you say I have it done
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12:34<Samu>what's done isnt' working exactly as I expect
12:36<Samu>this part here
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12:36<Samu>is a failure
12:37<LordAro>i think youve just "thrown yourself in at the deep end" a bit
12:37<Samu>GetTileOwnerOld is the real GetTileOwner
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12:38<Samu>my version of GetTileOwner SUCKS
12:38<LordAro>you need to learn more about C(++) first
12:38<Samu>it's not complete
12:38<LordAro>then youll be able to work out where you're going wrong better
12:41<Samu>I can't change GetTileOwner, it's used almost everywhere by the game
12:41<Samu>but if I don't change it, I can't implement what I want to do
12:42<LordAro>you could modify it inplace
12:42<LordAro>that is allowed...
12:42<@Alberth>of course you can change it, but you have to be careful not to break it
12:45<LordAro>well, that goes without saying :p
12:46<Samu>and I was thinking m6 would be the hardest part to do
12:46<Samu>turns out m1 is becoming a nightmare
12:47<@Alberth>that's normal, there are always nice unexpected things that you also have to do, and usually the nice things are way more difficult than the first steps
12:49<LordAro>so much this ^
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12:50<LordAro>"yay, ive finished this rewrite, the program should be so much faster now"
12:51<LordAro>"what do you mean it's 3 times slower?"
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12:52<@planetmaker>hehe, LordAro :)
12:53<@planetmaker>from that POV we should possibly still have nml in py2 (from what I think I know). But from a look of what we can do with py3... no :) and it's faster now than in py2 times
12:54<Samu>old version of water, station, object: m1 = x 01 10000
12:55<Samu>new version of water, station, object: m1 = x 01 ? 1111
12:55<Samu>new version of water, station, object: m6 = 11 xxxx 11
12:55<@planetmaker>Samu, it really is not helping that you keep writing here a stream of thought-trails...
12:56<@planetmaker>for one, focus on what you do. Read on how things work, think it through. And if that does not help, ask concise questions. Otherwise there's no way *anyone* can help you
12:57<@planetmaker>with your eternal stream of musings and what-not, no-one can follow what you do, what is your current state, what is the current problem. And that includes you yourself
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13:00<@planetmaker>people are happy to help usually, that includes myself. But it's extremely difficult to filter through a stream of trivia the real questions. It's exhausting on everyone
13:01<Samu>objective is the same as of a week ago
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13:06<V453000>so what form of wtf are you working on andythenorth
13:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not sure I told you. However might be good for some of your py3 projects:
13:10<@planetmaker>removes an explicit py2 dependency
13:10<Samu>convert owners from 5 bits to 4 bits, to free up a bit
13:10<Samu>convert that free bit to have meaning
13:11<Samu>only convert when waterclass is canal, else don't do anything
13:12<+glx>hmm how can you store 16 companies and special owners in 4 bits ??
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13:12<@planetmaker>glx, we only have 15
13:12<Samu>there's owner none for canal
13:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: eh yes that would be useful
13:12<+glx>ha right 0xF is not a company
13:12<andythenorth>then python 2 is gone
13:13<andythenorth>V453000: I am wtf-ing nothing today
13:13<andythenorth>brain elsewhere
13:13<andythenorth>I had a nice game going, but I got bored
13:14<andythenorth>Alberth made a new Busy Bee which fixes the bugs in mine
13:14<andythenorth>but GS can’t be swapped on a game :P
13:15<@planetmaker>he... but you don't use it seems :D
13:15<andythenorth>I don’t?
13:15<andythenorth>iirc some makefiles blow up if I remove PYTHONPATH or such
13:15<@planetmaker>seems not. Probably older Makefiles with that one explicitly in the Makefile
13:15<andythenorth>didn’t test today though
13:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: tried just copying the .nut files?
13:21<@Alberth>(be sure to make a backup copy)
13:21<@planetmaker>he... VMWare is being sued for GPL violation... using kernel code without publishing code it seems
13:22<andythenorth>Alberth: last time I tried it, OpenTTD just disabled the GS
13:22<andythenorth>didn’t try again :D
13:22<andythenorth>if the data structures have evolved, it’s probably a bad idea
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13:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh, some fields in info.nut are likely critical
13:23<@Alberth>load/save data has not changed
13:24<@Alberth>so you should be able to load an old savegame into the new BB
13:24<@planetmaker>if they lose the case, they have to publish sources of ESXi...
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13:29<chillcore>hello all o/
13:29-!-Pereba_ [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
13:31*chillcore did a good deed and infected public pc with OpenTTD :P
13:31<chillcore>hello frosch and planetmaker
13:32<@planetmaker>hehe :)
13:33<chillcore>I have a point to prove ... I also rigged a so called protected bios to boot from USB tommorow morning :(
13:33<chillcore>but I will undo that before harm is done ;)
13:34<chillcore>I did notify one person ...
13:34<@planetmaker>evilzzz hackorrzz, you ;)
13:34<chillcore>to see if that so calld security company will even notice and call them to disable pc at all ... :sadface:
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13:35<chillcore>the funny part is that that bios prog is called "gag" which means joke in french ... the irony
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13:42<Samu>my draft
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13:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, "gag" in english is either a joke, or something you put in someone's mouth so they can't speak
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13:45<chillcore>I guess they meant the latter ... it is supposed to either let you boot os or enter password to access bios
13:45<chillcore>ofcourse if you press 'that' button ... sigh
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13:52<Samu>my draft is misleading grrr
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13:52<chillcore>in better news ... I have two bugsies left ... some minor todos (cleanup and documentation) and then tuning
13:53<chillcore>besides shortening the code and later the addons
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13:55<@Alberth>nice :)
13:55<chillcore>also no need no more to use only six parameters to get terrain generation for small maps working properly thanks to int32
13:56<chillcore>^^^ yiehaa for cleaner code and maintenance later on
13:57<chillcore>I posted some screenshots of small maps in my topic alberth ... better?
13:59<Samu>i can't do this. if my life depended on this, I would be dead
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14:00<Samu>i created a draft to better visualize my goal
14:00<chillcore>'good thing your life does not depend on it and you have all the time in the world ;)
14:00<@Alberth>looks ok-ish. I should play with a big mountain some day
14:01<Samu>from old behaviour to new behaviour, there has to be convertions
14:02<Samu>maybe this way, it's easier to point out what i must work on
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14:04<@Alberth>I would start with learning c++ if I were you
14:05*andythenorth tried writing a patch once
14:05<andythenorth>not knowing c++ was only the second problem
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14:10<@peter1138>Fucking stupid truck, drove into the side of me :(
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14:11<chillcore>ouch ... you are fine yourself I hope?
14:13<Samu>i can't learn c++
14:15<Samu>if i couldn't before, then it's not now that i could
14:16<@Alberth>under that assumption, you will not be able to do anything
14:17<Samu>i dropped university because i failed at everything, i felt i was in the wrong department
14:18<@peter1138>chillcore, eh, ETS2
14:19<chillcore>oO o...k
14:19<chillcore>you did not say that at first peter
14:21<@Alberth>these videogames get so live-like nowadays :p
14:22<chillcore>hehe xD
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14:27<andythenorth>peter1138: is it any good? I can’t play it, runs like a dog
14:27<andythenorth>clearly Apple hardware isn’t up to it
14:31<Samu>i must have been the most horrible person to ever be on this chat, i just feel that way
14:31<Samu>cant get anything done right
14:32<Samu>i demand too much
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14:32<andythenorth>award for most persistence with least result :)
14:32<andythenorth>there have been many worse, offensive, hopeless, idiots
14:32<Samu>yes, but i drag you with me
14:33<andythenorth>mostly this channel is me or V453000 typing monologues
14:33<Samu>sometimes I wonder why do I even try
14:33<andythenorth>or Eddi|zuHause blathering about cats
14:33<@Alberth>or andy asking about cats :)
14:33<andythenorth>I never do that
14:34<Samu>i know the end resut is that I won't go anywhere without guidance
14:34<chillcore>and? none of us was born a coder or graphics artist or musisian ...
14:34<@Alberth>it's not guidance you seek
14:35<@Alberth>at least, that's how it looks to me
14:36<@Alberth>with guidance, a hint in the right direction is sufficient, you seem to ignore what we say
14:37<Samu>i dont ignore, it's just that I don't get what youmean
14:37<@Alberth>unless we tell you exactly what to do
14:37<Samu>yes, i noticed
14:37<Samu>i have to stop this
14:37<andythenorth>this is approximately what happens to me when patching OpenTTD
14:37<andythenorth>only faster
14:37<@Alberth>but that's not helping any of us
14:38<@Alberth>it's not helping me, as I can do it quicker by myself, and it's not helping you, as you don't learn how things work
14:38<@Alberth>you just learn tricks without understanding why or how
14:40<@Alberth>which means at the slightest change you're stuck again
14:40<@Alberth>I don't know how to help you
14:42<ST2>imo the best help/suggestion was already made, many times. learn at least the C(++) basics
14:42<ST2>that would help Samu alot :)
14:42<+glx><@peter1138> Fucking stupid truck, drove into the side of me :( <-- toll booth ?
14:42<ST2>hi all :)
14:42<@Alberth>hi hi
14:43<+glx>the only place where they ignore mirrors
14:43*andythenorth now has ETS 2 rage
14:43<andythenorth>I have bought it but can’t play
14:43<andythenorth>you’re all playing it
14:43<@Alberth>buy a new computer :p
14:43<+glx>even when lowering graphics ?
14:44<andythenorth>I have considered a new computer
14:44<andythenorth>this one is old
14:44<chillcore>you need to take it slower samu ... do something much simpler first and don't try to do 3 things at once after indeed learning the basics of coding; does not even have to be c++
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14:44<chillcore>haai ST2 o/
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14:49<@Alberth>oh great, andythenorth, our first contributed patch for BB!
14:49<@Alberth>thanks ST2 (assuming it's you)
14:49<ST2>yw :)
14:49<ST2>well, when I saw your reply that simple idea came up :)
14:50<@Alberth>I pondered about it too, was wondering if a plain multiplier would be ok, as it grows very fast
14:50<ST2>yeah, hehe
14:50<@Alberth>I somewhat thought about adding percentage
14:51<@Alberth>ie a factor / 100
14:51<ST2>well, max is 20, but 7500 * 20 of Mail is insane xD
14:51<Samu>I'm off to play, put this on hold
14:51<andythenorth>Alberth: for our next trick…he writes his own GS ;)
14:51<andythenorth>more GS
14:51<chillcore>hehe I had a 'drive me nuts' setting in bugpack for towngrowth
14:51<@Alberth>I have had 6,6K mail goal, that was crazy already :)
14:52<chillcore>laters samu ;)
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14:53<andythenorth>the BB game I am about to stop playing
14:54<andythenorth>nice spaghetti network
14:54<andythenorth>ho here’s the same game I posted 2 weeks ago :D
14:54<andythenorth>forgot I did that
14:54<andythenorth>V453000 would weep
14:54<andythenorth>“WHERE IS MOAR LOGIC”
14:55<ST2>at least Samu gonna play Busy Bee too, to relax :)
14:57<@Alberth>lots of water andy :)
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15:09<Oddingar>I've been reading on the forum regarding several timetable patches, what is recommended per today?
15:10*andythenorth files timetables under non-understandable things
15:10<andythenorth>ignore me
15:10<Oddingar>meaning there's no improvements that are working properly? :P
15:12<@Alberth>for some value of "working", yes
15:12<@Alberth>but it depends on how you play the game, I guess
15:14<Oddingar>I'll have to get back to you on that one, I think
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15:15<@Alberth> <-- this the wiki about it
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15:18<@Alberth>it looks a bit out of date
15:19<@Alberth>you may want to keep in mind that you can 'start' a time table at a certain moment, for all vehicles with the same shared orders, by holding CTRL while starting
15:19<@Alberth>ie hold CTRL key when you press the 'start' button at the gui
15:19<Oddingar>yeah, but you ahve to spread the vehicles or trains manually to get it working, right?
15:20<@Alberth>no, if you start like above, the computer sets up the starting times like that
15:20<Oddingar>I was reading this thread:
15:20<Oddingar>and I figure this would be really neat to evenly spread engineering/farm supplies
15:21<Oddingar>on FIRS
15:21<@Alberth>I never figured out much how time tables work at all
15:21<andythenorth>I use them for ‘wait 5 days’ or such sometimes
15:21<@Alberth>I play with break downs enabled, so it's messy to say the least :)
15:21<andythenorth>because there’s no % load
15:22<andythenorth>but everything else I’ve tried with timetables doesn’t do anything useful
15:22<andythenorth>I was going to say “doesn’t work” but that implies bugs
15:22<Oddingar>ah, I see :P
15:22<andythenorth>I have failed to understand what they add to gameplay
15:22<andythenorth>afaict they are for foamers to recreate accurate timetables of specific real-life trains
15:23<@Alberth>but some people use them all the time, and are happy with them
15:23<andythenorth>there are many types of people in the world :P
15:23<andythenorth>at least 7
15:23<andythenorth>maybe even 8
15:23<Oddingar>well, I see on one of my games when I hit 200 trains or so it gets a bit tricky to keep track on everything, so was hoping someone had found a solution :P
15:23<andythenorth>build a fault tolerant system :)
15:23<andythenorth>don’t try and track things :)
15:24<chillcore>they help to spread out your vehicles instead of them bunching up ... untill breakdowns or servicing happens :P
15:24<@Alberth>just watch trains running smooth, and stations having a waiting train
15:24<andythenorth>how are they supposed to work?
15:24<andythenorth>it’s non-deterministic how long a vehicle takes to complete a leg
15:25<@Alberth>keep an eye on the amount of cargo at stations
15:25<andythenorth>and the timetable can’t make the vehicle exceed the max speed for the terrain, load etc
15:25<andythenorth>so the only timetable that isn’t late is one that has excess slack
15:25<andythenorth>so a timetable is almost always wrong
15:25<@Alberth>you make the time table too long, and the train will arrive early every now and then
15:26<chillcore>I've even seen games where peeps have a waiting/holding stations to have trains stay overnight ... with daylenght patches that is
15:26<@Alberth>then it will wait until it's 'on time' again
15:26<Leander_>I use time tables exactly for that: regular delivery of engineering supplies in FIRS, when the station is close, all I do is make it stall a bit after delivery
15:26<andythenorth>I just add vehicles to the route until the industry is at max production
15:26<andythenorth>is that more or less complex?
15:27<chillcore>ye you add some time to the timetable to catch up from breakdowns/congestions/unsheduled servicing
15:27<@Alberth>less control over how much gets sent to the industry, I guess
15:27<andythenorth>how do timetables handle upgraded vehicles? Are they recalculated?
15:28<@Alberth>not that I know, nor does it handle additional vehicles you buy later afaik
15:28<Oddingar>Leander_: are you happy with the way it works using regular time tables? maybe I'll have to give it a go again
15:28<andythenorth>how do they handle congestion on rails / runways / airbridges / roads
15:29<andythenorth>if I add more trains / planes / RVs on new routes are the timetables recalculated?
15:29<@Alberth>you add sufficient additional time to handle such cases
15:29<andythenorth>we should rebuild the internet so packets are scheduled
15:29<chillcore>right because steam users are so delighted with that feature ...
15:30<@Alberth>like you said, it's great if you have a fixed setup, and never change tracks, engines, or number of engines
15:30<Leander_>Oddingar the thing is, I seldom use it because most of the time my trains take more than 3 months to deliver and come back, so there's no reason to stall them
15:31<andythenorth>I did try scheduling ships
15:31<andythenorth>to avoid them all overlapping
15:31<andythenorth>but it doesn’t actually work
15:31<andythenorth>autofill is borked, and I cba to count how many days the routes took
15:32<chillcore>but ye if you upgrade vehicles you basically have to redo that routes timetable
15:32<@Alberth>ships somewhat work for me, but it's a lot of manual work
15:32<@Alberth>but for ships it's useful as they seldom change
15:33<andythenorth>% load was ruled out recently, but I forgot why
15:33<andythenorth>was it determined to be boring?
15:33<chillcore>it was?
15:33<@Alberth>I have come to the conclusion it could be useful at times
15:34<andythenorth>somebody mostly convinced me that it isn’t wise
15:34<@Alberth>the real trick is that you have to dramatically change the order system, I think
15:34<andythenorth>eh, but would we? o_O
15:35<@Alberth>for time -> infinity, we will :)
15:35*andythenorth has an insane idea about vehicles routing dynamically
15:35<andythenorth>and reserving cargo in advance at their next hop
15:35<andythenorth>tramp steamers basically
15:35<@Alberth>dynamic routing would be sooo nice
15:35<andythenorth>it would be bonkers
15:36<andythenorth>trucks do it too, and some freight planes
15:36<andythenorth>trains….not so much
15:36<@Alberth>probably get all kinds of feedback loops in the system
15:37<Oddingar>aight, thanks for your reply guys :P
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15:39<Oddingar>oh yeah, Leander_, same here, therefore I got more than one train carrying engineering supplies, and theres where the issue start, sometimes two trains arrive at the same time, and I can't seem to find a usefull way to even them out
15:39<Oddingar>especially when the network is a bit crowded at times
15:39<@Alberth>a long track without signals works quite nicely
15:40<@Alberth>or a single track shared between in and outgoing trains
15:40<Leander_>can you make them pause at a waypoint?
15:41<@Alberth>no, you have to build a passage
15:41<chillcore>no but you can abuse a single tile station for that with no load/unload orders ;)
15:41<@Alberth>but with path signals it's easy to force them to wait until they can find a safe spot in the next block
15:42<Oddingar>is there other patches recommended?
15:43<@Alberth>I always play trunk / nightlies :)
15:45<chillcore>I always end up playing with code somehow :P
15:45<@Alberth>it's a much more challenging game :p
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15:51<@Alberth>ST2: As for the BB patch, setting place seems fine, but perhaps make it between 50% and say 2000% ? note that "difficulty" easy/medium/hard has very little meaning, as you can take practically as long as you desire to fulfill a goal (timeout gets reset when you deliver)
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15:52<ST2>that's a neat idea :)
15:52*andythenorth adds Busy Bee to forum sig
15:53<@Alberth>I'd be happy to add it
15:53<ST2>well, I'll try that tomorrow, @ pub now ^^
15:53<@Alberth>ok :)
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16:00<ST2>any suggestion for step_size? maybe 10 ^^
16:01<@Alberth>seems fine to me
16:01<@Alberth>1 would work too :)
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16:02<@Alberth>you don't have a step-size, do you? just a min/max number
16:02<ST2>hehe, from 50 to 2000, even 10 seems low (lots of clicks needed)
16:02<@Alberth>oh, right
16:02<@Alberth>you know the double click trick?
16:03<@Alberth>a window opens and you can change the number with the keyboard :)
16:03<ST2>well, some players dnt know it ^^
16:03<ST2>and I change always the settings in cfg file
16:04<ST2>"always the hard way" Chuck Norris
16:04<@Alberth>right, then you'd have to go from 5 to 200, with 10 == 100%
16:04<ST2>got a computer here (cibercoffee)
16:04<ST2>2000% = 20
16:04<ST2>logical xD
16:05<ST2>1 is 100%
16:05<ST2>oh wait, damn beer :S
16:05<ST2>dnt combine with math
16:05<@Alberth>too many zeroes :)
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16:13-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
16:13-!-mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
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16:42<andythenorth>also bedtime
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17:04<@Terkhen>good night
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19:22<chillcore>hello o/
19:36<supermop>need to figure out a way to give the asphalt a messy edge
19:37<supermop>where is slightly bleeds over onto the stones in the gutter
19:38<supermop>now its just a crisp line between cobble stones and pavement
19:38<ST2>please continue, couple more lines and it's a nice poem xD
19:39<supermop>finally got a material for the rails that i am happy with
19:40<chillcore>in 3d prog no idea
19:41<chillcore>mind doing post-processing of exported pictures?
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19:42<supermop>i guess i could try to do it with clone brush in PS
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19:44<chillcore>you could model it all ...
19:45<supermop>well thats wht im thinking but even that is going to hard to get to look ok
19:45<supermop>i am thinking of drawing loose freeform squiggle that follows the edge of the pavement then extrude that
19:48<supermop>so i have a little sliver that is straight line on one side and messy on the other, attach that to edge of asphalt
19:49<supermop>it looks like i cant have roads work the way i want them to
19:50<chillcore>do tramstracks provide their own?
19:50<supermop>well tram cannot have it's own sidewalk i think
19:50<chillcore>no that comes with the road
19:51<supermop>so plain tram with sidewalk means drawing a road then drawing a tramtrack without road over it
19:51<chillcore>any grf can override that so bad idea
19:51<chillcore>you could do a roadgrf too ofcourse
19:51<chillcore>and make it a desired dependency
19:51<supermop>that means that 1) tram track without road must be same width as road
19:52<chillcore>no idea ...
19:52<chillcore>can check that
19:52<supermop>and 2) sidewalks will always look the same between a street and an urban tramway
19:53<supermop>and 3) tram out in country side will look the same as in city
19:53<supermop>i think
19:54<chillcore>how is it now?
19:54<supermop>if i want to have rural tram have rails on ballast with grass, and urban tram to have concrete between the rails or nice cobble stones,
19:54<supermop>i dont think i can do that
19:55<supermop>in ogfx, there is plain tramway overlay - just grey rails with blue px between
19:55<chillcore>welp me eyes
19:55<supermop>and tramway with solid dirt between
19:56<supermop>when you build plain tramway on its own it uses the dirt, whether it is in city or country
19:56<supermop>if you build over road it uses the transparent overlay
19:56<supermop>so you can draw the dirt as grass or fancy pavers or concrete
19:56<chillcore>ye untill you fill it in
19:57<chillcore>sstt you did not get that from me :P
19:57<supermop>but then it will always be that way in city or county
19:57<chillcore>why would it not?
19:57<supermop>no reason really, just limiting
19:58<chillcore>if you put some flower beds in there the townspeeps will adore you
19:58<supermop>dirt or grass looks odd in city, but concrete or stone looks odd in country
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19:58<chillcore>you've got two sets there ...
19:59<supermop>two sets?
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19:59<chillcore>one set is used on roads and the other on non roads
19:59<chillcore>so ...
20:00<supermop>but if you do like hungarian city tram track grf you can abuse the transparent part over overlay and draw paver stones on it
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20:01<chillcore>ye which may look very doodoo-like if someone selects a raodset that clashes
20:01<supermop>but then those stones overlay everything the run over including railroad at level crossing
20:01<chillcore>also toyland :P
20:03<chillcore>what does it do now on levelcrossings? above or under the train rails?
20:04<chillcore>the same will happen
20:04<chillcore>you'll have train balast thet may clash badly
20:05<chillcore>think different cobblesize and such
20:05<chillcore>^^^ balast and or concrete slabs
20:06<supermop>right now from bottom to top it goes road, train, tram
20:06<chillcore>it's your call but you can not predict what people will activate
20:07<supermop>well assume my grf provides both road graphics and tram
20:07<supermop>so by default it will be my roads and my tramway
20:07<chillcore>and ships somewhere in the middle ;)
20:07<supermop>but if someone add another road grf after it in the list,
20:07<supermop>then it will have a second road thing
20:08<chillcore>yes untill someone has a radset after your combined set
20:08<chillcore>or a tramset
20:08<chillcore>I like nutracks very much
20:08<supermop>so i can make it look best with my grf only, but still ok with another grf
20:08<chillcore>but first track is overwrittten
20:08<chillcore>by the one I like too
20:09<chillcore>see what I mean
20:09<chillcore>you can suggest ofcourse
20:09<chillcore>or disable your own in case of meh
20:10<chillcore>that way 'if' people want to play with your set they need to have both
20:10<chillcore>kinda silly if you askk me but
20:10<chillcore>your call
20:10<chillcore>I won't judge you if you do ;)
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20:11<supermop>why does my irc keep reconnecting
20:11<chillcore>ghosts in the machine ...
20:12<supermop>anyway i want tram on street to have concrete between rails
20:12<supermop>and street by itself to have no concrete
20:12<chillcore>you can make that nice-ish looking
20:12<supermop>so i will put concrete in the overlay
20:13<supermop>hopefully level crossings still look ok
20:14<chillcore>it'll be tight yeah ...
20:14<supermop>next i want tram by itself to have gravel ballast and grass in country and suburbs, concrete in city. but that is currently impossible, so i'll make sprites but not use them unless someone makes roadtypes
20:15<supermop>so country tram will also be concrete
20:15<chillcore>if you keep between the rails it'll be fine
20:15<chillcore>maybe you can even spill a bit here and there even
20:16<chillcore>but all the way to the border seems like a bad idea as it is no longer tramsprites then
20:16<supermop>lastly i want the sidewalks to look good with city tram
20:16<chillcore>do that in a roadset
20:16<chillcore>you can do it as layer to see what gives
20:18<chillcore>then for bananas you trigger the one with the other while coding them
20:18<supermop>but what if i draw no sidewalk in road set - only shoulder of road and gutter/curb
20:18<chillcore>or in bananas itself I dunno
20:18<supermop>hmm how do i do that
20:19<chillcore>them tiles go up to the houses
20:19<chillcore>houses are designed to go up to the road
20:19<chillcore>that simple
20:19<supermop>yeah, but the sidewalk could be much skinnier than it is now
20:20<chillcore>roadset has the sidewalk
20:20<chillcore>your call
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20:23<supermop>the monorail level crossing always looks so absurd
20:23<supermop>like a giant concrete beam across the road
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20:35<supermop>hmm modelling the squiggly edge manually looks ok actually
20:36<chillcore>in unity you could plot them around with a script
20:37<chillcore>then let them interact with gravity for a sec
20:37<chillcore>cameras are easily set up
20:38<chillcore>its getting them in the right place
20:38<supermop>haha instead of gravel texture could i just put 1000s of rocks in the sky and see where they fall?
20:40<chillcore>I dabbled with it last year
20:40<chillcore>made a tileset much like openttd has
20:40<supermop>i actually need to learn some unreal stuff for work
20:40<supermop>maybe i can do unity insteadd
20:42<chillcore>spawned some terrain vary basic heightdistribution only -1, 0, - 1 with one diff max between next tile
20:42<chillcore>but I did not get to orientating them correctly yet
20:42<chillcore>got distracted and did something else
20:42<supermop>make a first-person 3d openttd
20:43<supermop>to buy a train you have to walk to depot and buy it there
20:43<supermop>drive to next town to set it's orders
20:43<supermop>and if there is no road yet have to walk to where the road will be to build it
20:44<chillcore>haha and you drive around in a zonda after a while
20:44<chillcore>or better yet Lotus elise
20:44<supermop>but then the construction workers are jealous and demand pay raise
20:45<chillcore>entree 3D shooter :P
20:45<supermop>also cannot drive your lotus to towns with no road connection yet
20:45<supermop>land rover instead
20:45<supermop>cut down trees with chainsaw
20:46<supermop>want to raise land in ocean? stand there shovelling dirt into it for years
20:46<chillcore>hmm ... never done that any of the msimulmators really
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20:47<chillcore>realtime too ... the game wakes you up at 6 AM to milk cows and mow wheat:P
20:48<chillcore>we should make this a suggestions topic
20:48<supermop>or if you dont wake up and log in at 3 pm you get fired for being late to work
20:48<chillcore>maybe we should keep this between us and do it in unity
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20:50<chillcore>we could be rich ... "buy this game and you do not need a life anymore!! in fact you won't have timefor one" :P
20:51<Pikkaphone>too many realisms
20:52<Supercheese>Realism overflow
20:52<Pikkaphone>Baldy will love it
20:53<supermop>well he wont be able to play as you will need to go a university in game for years to get a business degree, then work your way up a company, before you could ever negotiate buying out a competitor
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20:55<supermop>ok well, if the minimum needed sprites for a minimum viable tramway set are the overlays and the basic tramways, i basically have that done
20:56<supermop>set could just use default trolleywire and depots to start with
20:56<supermop>and most of the work to do right now is on the road tiles - can just layover default roads for now
20:57<supermop>just need to model the U turn
20:57<supermop>which i think i will fake
20:58<chillcore>arcs should be pretty easy no?
20:58<supermop>instead of U i will model a Y-shaped shunt and not care if the tram looks ridiculous driving over it
20:59<supermop>i have all the curves done now, hardest part is the points and frogs
20:59<supermop>but now have those done as well
20:59<supermop>if i steal frogs from one of the T junctions i can make the y easily
20:59<Pikkaphone>also wires and poles are cluttery, draw them faintly or not at all imo. Not drawing them works for horse and steam trams too.
21:00<supermop>also here and many cities they string wire between buildings and dont even have poles
21:00<supermop>its not high speed catenary either - just a thin loose wire
21:01<Pikkaphone>the original poles and wires are the ugliest thing ever.
21:01<supermop>low voltage
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21:01<supermop>also further to my discussion yesterday, there should never be reflective highlights on the wires
21:02<supermop>as it repeats every tile looking bad, and stands out too much
21:02<Pikkaphone>tres hideous
21:02<supermop>just a dark grey line
21:03<Pikkaphone>mind you I don't think we ever had the long intercity lines in mind when we first made them
21:03<supermop>tram wires?
21:03<supermop>well before there are trams, you cant tell how people will use them
21:03<Pikkaphone>they're not so repetitive snaking through the city
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21:04<supermop>if the tram has no straights longer than 3 tiles it looks okk
21:05<Pikkaphone>I look forward to seeing your tram lines. :)
21:05<supermop>can see the tracks in an hour or so if you want
21:05<supermop>wires i don't know yet
21:06<supermop>i'd love a tram shunt
21:06<supermop>let trams reverse on a line with out turning off into a little stubby loop
21:07<supermop>would be super hard i guess as tram would need to completely clear the shunt tile, know that it is clear, prevent following tram from entering shunt tile, and then reverse
21:07<supermop>likewise a real end of line
21:08<supermop>of course i guess trams could just drive through the following tram as they drive through other trams in curves
21:10<supermop>what happens if the NE and NW edges of a tile protrude a few px? will it just overlap tile behind or cause trouble?
21:12<chillcore>see ya later ;) good night
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21:22<supermop>im off to coles to grab some food
21:34<Pikkaphone>who knows re overlapping? suck it and see!
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22:18<Eddi|zuHause><Pikkaphone> who knows re overlapping? suck it and see! <-- perfect example of something where the individual words are fine, but the sentence does just not make any sense at all
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22:41<Pikkaphone>eddi: "suck it and see" is an idiom what means "try it and see what happens"
22:46<supermop>Pikkaphone: must be an australian thing, if you said that in the us you'd get odd looks indeed
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22:46<Pikkaphone>British even.
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 06 00:00:41 2015