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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-09

---Logopened Mon Mar 09 07:27:50 2015
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08:15<argoneus>good afternoon train friends
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08:30<V453000>yay, managed to model the stuff around wheels which makes steam train move, but cant do stuff with it in order to render it to the game XD
08:30<V453000>lets do it again =D
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08:41<Samu>First Available Engines
08:41<Samu>Default OpenTTD
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08:43<barnex>I'm trying to wrap my head around the .nfo format and I'm having a hard time. I'm not quite getting how/when the new entities (lets say trains for now) come to be and how they are referenced.
08:44<V453000>you want to do vehicles in nfo?
08:44<barnex>I want to get info out of a grf.
08:44<barnex>is there a better way than through .nfo?
08:45<V453000>what info do you want?
08:45<barnex>train stuff, lengths of cars, power, max speed, tractive effort, name
08:45<juzza1>what set? did you search for the source of that set?
08:45<barnex>all the sets
08:46<barnex>I want to write a piece of code that extract this
08:46<barnex>So I can write another piece of code that uses this :P
08:46<barnex>so basically my research to date says that I pretty much nead to understand nfo :P
08:46<barnex>to get the data out
08:47<barnex>wtf is wrong with my english now, sorry
08:47<barnex>seems like decompiling nfo to nfl isn't an option, and even if it was parsing nml seems hard
08:48<barnex>compared to nfo
08:48<barnex>I get that action 00 changes values for specific train ID
08:48<barnex>but I don't get how the vehicle name gets assigned to the train ID?
08:49<@planetmaker>eh... you want to make a piece of software which decompiles the grfs in order to do what? compile a manual for them?
08:49<@planetmaker>and parsing nml certainly is not really harder than nfo
08:49<@planetmaker>especially as nml itself has a parser in-built, thus it's already there
08:49<barnex>planetmaker, well, is there a way to decompile nfo to nml?
08:50<@planetmaker>also de-compile would mean grf2nml.
08:50<@planetmaker>but I'm curious: what's the use case of that endevour of yours?
08:51<barnex>I want to make a thing that calculates stuff like 'what kind of train I need in order to go that fast with that TL and that kind of cargo and is best given various bestness function'
08:51<barnex>maybe a web thing
08:51<barnex>but that's far ahead
08:51<@planetmaker>barnex, that fails for many newgrfs. As they use callback 36 in order to change stuff
08:51<@planetmaker>thus properties of vehicles and trains change dynamically depending on date and what-not
08:52<V453000>I was just about to say that
08:52<barnex>that... I wasn't aware of that ever happening
08:52<barnex>why would someone do that? :o
08:52<barnex>this game is confusing enough as it is :D
08:52<V453000>example from NUTS, some trains change speed, power and TE based on e.g. length .... wagons change capacity based on which engine is in front, ...
08:53<V453000>it makes things simpler
08:53<@planetmaker>and on track type underneath the train :)
08:53<V453000>you can have one wagon for various kinds of trains, with changed stats, but still just one vehicle
08:53<V453000>and that pm. :)
08:53<V453000>among other things :P
08:53<barnex>so if I'm buying a wagon in the depot and it's not attached to an engine
08:53<V453000>I am not sure how far other sets do this, but yeah...
08:54<barnex>I get different stats
08:54<V453000>yes, it is possible
08:54<barnex>than it's going to actually have?
08:54<@planetmaker>barnex because they can. Often claimed as being 'realistic', e.g. a dual engine thing with different power on differently electrified tracks or so
08:54<barnex>that doesn't sound like a thing a non-crazy person would consider good
08:54<barnex>at least to me
08:54<V453000>good for what reason, getting stats?
08:54<juzza1>non-crazy, here?
08:55<barnex>good for user experience, when I buy stuff and it has certain stats
08:55<@planetmaker>or you have one passenger wagon in the list. But on the ICE it's an ICE carriage with X people capacity, but on a 'normal' engine it's a normal carriage with Y persons capacity
08:55<barnex>I'd expect to buy what it says it has
08:55<@planetmaker>and shit like that
08:55<V453000>if it is written in the purchase info that it will have different stats with different engines? :)
08:55<barnex>oh ok
08:55<V453000>yeah the passenger wagon is typical
08:55<@planetmaker>and with the ICE it has umlimtied speed (defined) by engine but with other engines it can go only 160km/h max or so
08:55<barnex>that makes sense now
08:56<V453000>still, you can probably create a table which train has what, but probably not automatically
08:56<@planetmaker>or a piece goods wagon can carry 30 bags of goods, 60 mail bags, 2 vehicle parts
08:56<@planetmaker>depending on refit
08:57<@planetmaker>barnex, and the vehicle might even say so in the purchase list.. but it's hard to parse as callbacks require more input which OpenTTD can supply dynamically
08:58<@planetmaker>but OpenTTD itself has that problem often too: newgrfs can do compilicated stuff, thus there's no way to predict whether a refit may actually succeed. It sucks. But changing would break (some) NewGRFs
08:58<barnex>those newGRFs seem like an awfully complicated way to do things
08:59<@planetmaker>they're basically small programmes. It's not just property definitions
08:59<@planetmaker>and the different versions of the NewGRF language doesn't help parsing either :P
08:59<V453000>sometimes more complicated code is worth reaching more simplicity for the player :)
09:00<V453000>of course unless the player goes bananas and wants to extract stats automatically XD :P
09:00<@planetmaker>^ that. And it allows many different things outside openttd code. Thus openttd itself is easier in that sense. As people can add complexity via newgrfs
09:00<@planetmaker>(and via game scripts)
09:01<barnex>yeah, but a lot of games do that sort of stuff in lua or something… standard?
09:01<@planetmaker>barnex, and, if one would design such thing from scratch, some things would not work how they do, but differently. Much easier then to parse and understand. But well... history :)
09:02<@planetmaker>most games don't have 10 years of history
09:02<barnex>instead of developing own format, than a language, and then another language because no one was able to work in the previous one :P
09:02<@planetmaker>and we can load savegames created 20 years ago
09:02<barnex>I see
09:02<barnex>so this goes back to ttdpatch?
09:02<@planetmaker>and any script usage like lua for these things would decrease performance *dramatically*. NewGRFs are time critical
09:02<V453000>back to everything =D
09:03<@planetmaker>yes, the format is shared with TTDPatch. However OpenTTD on its own is already 10 years of age
09:03<@planetmaker>and the limits of TTDPatch certainly helped in making the NewGRF format as baroque as it is now :)
09:05<@planetmaker>we're slowly working on removing some limits, but it's slow; especially when we want to remain compatible with old NewGRFs
09:07<barnex>well it's probably the best FOSS game ever, so its not like I'm complaining
09:09<@planetmaker>:) Maybe you want change focus slightly and to look at our saveload gui and code and try to add more information to the load dialogue concerning the single games? Improving the preview? Or something like that?
09:10<barnex>I'm afraid something like that would involve C++, right?
09:11<@planetmaker>it would, yes C/C++
09:11<barnex>it's not exactly a simple and forgiving language one picks up by accident
09:11<barnex>unless you think there's a ticket that could be done with marginal cpp knowledge
09:12<barnex>bacaue templates and stuff like that just scares me
09:12<@planetmaker>right... maybe that's for you then: tutorial-GS
09:12<@planetmaker>that's writing squirrel mostly. Along with map design for the single steps
09:13<@planetmaker> <-- there's already a project. But it could need much more love and is far from finished
09:13<@planetmaker>It's currently rather on hiatus
09:13<@planetmaker>If that got more love, it's something which *I' could envision being shipped along with OpenTTD itself
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09:14<@planetmaker>you can get the current version likely from the ingame content download, too
09:17<@planetmaker>it could / can involve some C/C++ work, if the game script API proves insufficient; but that's up to whoever makes the tutorial
09:17<barnex>yeah it's current.
09:42<barnex>I pretty much hated it, but not in a constructive way
09:42<barnex>I understand that the train section needs expanding and I managed to break the bus section
09:43<barnex>but other than that it seems pretty solid
09:46<luaduck>our primary openttd server has hung with 100% CPU usage
09:46<luaduck>uptime just over a month but this came out of the blue
09:46<luaduck>worth doing any debug before I sigkill it?
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09:51<@planetmaker>luaduck, knowing the cause of a bug is always worth it :)
09:51<@planetmaker>attach debugger to it and get backtrace maybe?
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10:16<luaduck>I've got no idea what I'm doing when it comes to gdb planetmaker
10:16<luaduck>what's the best way to just dump the entire backtrace from the gdb shell
10:16<luaduck>I'm attached to the process
10:17<@planetmaker>can you just issue bt?
10:17<luaduck>dumps it 8 at a time
10:18<luaduck>unless you just want the top of the tree
10:18<@planetmaker>rather the whole. But for me it gives the full trace
10:18<luaduck>wait nvm I'm dumb
10:18<luaduck>one sec
10:19<@planetmaker>and it's unresponsive?
10:19<@planetmaker>seems stuck in path finder somewhere
10:19<luaduck>CPU jammed at 100% load
10:20<luaduck>completely unresponsive
10:20<@planetmaker>however, please create a bug report about that with that trace and the savegame (or last autosave) and OpenTTD version used
10:20<luaduck>alright, will do
10:20<@planetmaker>where the backtrace is the most important thing :)
10:20<luaduck>jinassi notes that we had a previous load issue with a company exploiting the pathfinder
10:21<@planetmaker>if there is / you know a way to re-create the issue, it's of course even better, if you can describe it
10:21<@planetmaker>or if you know the company and can interview that player :)
10:21<luaduck>I'll pop it in the bug and ask jin to comment
10:26<luaduck>server's rekicked, I'll do that bug report in 10 minutes or so
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10:43<luaduck>bug created:
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10:57<@planetmaker>ty, luaduck
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11:19<@peter1138>Ah, that's why gitlab is such a bitch... it's a ruby/rails app...
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11:35<@peter1138>rArgumentError: invalid byte sequence in US-ASCII
11:35<@peter1138>Useful :S
11:35*Eddi|zuHause hands peter1138 an ä
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14:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27179 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2015-03-09 18:15:33 UTC)
14:15<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:15<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 10 changes by telanus
14:15<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
14:15<@DorpsGek>finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
14:15<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 9 changes by oofnik
14:15<@DorpsGek>italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
14:15<@DorpsGek>korean - 11 changes by Gimel3830, telk5093
14:15<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
14:15<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
14:15<@DorpsGek>romanian - 29 changes by kneekoo
14:15<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 4 changes by GunChleoc
14:16<@DorpsGek>slovak - 17 changes by Milsa
14:16<@DorpsGek>spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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14:38<frosch123>moin :)
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15:46<andythenorth>the watch I’ve been waiting for
15:46<andythenorth>eh what?
15:46<@Alberth>still not sure of the time? :)
15:48<andythenorth>I get by
15:48<andythenorth>I generally find it’s either too early, or too late,
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16:35*andythenorth considers reinvented monorails
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16:41<@Alberth>not really a train, is it?
16:41<Taede>not in japan at least
16:46<+glx>looks like a funicular on monorail
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16:48<andythenorth>what did we call that 5th transport type?
16:48<andythenorth>packets? units?
16:49<andythenorth>has anyone coded it yet?
16:49<andythenorth>does it even fit in the map array?
16:51<frosch123>it's "send money"
16:51<frosch123>quite boring thoughj
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17:12<andythenorth>is cat asleep?
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17:22<Oddingar>dunno, our cat is in the cow house
17:22<Oddingar>most likely sleeping
17:22<Oddingar>or puking
17:22<Oddingar>seems to be the only thing it does
17:22<Oddingar>besides killing mice and leaving them everywhere
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18:16<supermop>good morning
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause>good midnight yourself.
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18:35<supermop>having a thousand or so modeled cobblestones in this model seems to be a bad idea
18:35<supermop>but it does look better than a texture so far
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could render a texture out of your model, and reuse that :p
18:41<supermop>haha actually thats what I am thinking of doing!
18:42<supermop>i was looking to see if the program has an automatic way to do something like that but no luck
18:42<supermop>I could also make the geometry of the stones less complex
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20:15<Oddingar>working on the sidewalks, supermop?
20:16<supermop>gutters actually
20:17<Oddingar>how's it going?
20:17<supermop>ok but the cobblestones are a pain -
20:17<supermop>its hard to get a texture and bumpmap that looks like what i want
20:18<Oddingar>but you have an idea how you want it? that's a start at least P
20:18<supermop>especially to get the texture to wrap around curves
20:19<supermop>so instead i modelled 8 or so individual stones, with complex irregular geometries
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20:20<supermop>then arrayed them on a sloped surface for the gutter
20:20<supermop>but now my file that contains all of the different road tiles has tens of thousands of these little complex polysurfaces in it
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20:21<supermop>so its very laggy to work with
20:21<Oddingar>so you should convert it to a texture? as a picture, kinda, to prevent that, right?
20:22<supermop>if i had a newer version of my software i could instead just procedurally produce these stones right before rendering
20:22<supermop>then i am back to same problem though
20:24<Oddingar>you wouldn't by any chance have a screenshot of what you got for now?
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20:33<supermop>hmm i haven't set up any of the roads for rendering yet
20:45<Oddingar>ok :P well, time to sleep here, I'll see you around, hope you get it working properly :P
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21:04<supermop>going with texture for now and making a bunch of the wedges for curves
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23:27<supermop>paint a solid center line on curved roads?
23:28<supermop>I believe that is what american roadset does
23:29<supermop>as far as I know RVs never pass in curves
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23:30<chillcore>hello hello
23:34<chillcore>would be nice for snowline to be split of of desertline. the sandy dunes are lovely this time of year. :P
23:36<chillcore>^^^ happens because it is tied to max height setting and not height of highest generated tile (at mapgen)
23:38<chillcore>and where did that copy paste from? ... seems like I typed it while typing ... hmm
23:39<supermop>is it possible to have snow on desert in game?
23:40<chillcore>it is one or the other ... they use the same stetting for snowline and tropical forest
23:40<chillcore>it pretty much stops there though ;)
23:41<chillcore>so you can not have and rainforest and snow at the same time
23:44<supermop>it would be nice to do a vietnam scenario, where you have jungle near the sea, rainforest in the highlands, then snow up on the mountains in sapa
23:44<chillcore>just one thingy with it that one needs to select artic to be able to change it for tropical then go back ...
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23:45<chillcore>ye some peeps have tried 'multiclimat' before ... did not turn out very pretty
23:45<supermop>i like things like rainforest that alter tree behavior - i wish there were more tree zones
23:45<supermop>doesn't that treeline patch floating around spawn only pine trees above certain height
23:46<chillcore>ye ... but does it catch al the hystery?
23:47<chillcore>I have not tested so ... my opinion is based on loclahosts version and then still mangled I my bugpack
23:47<chillcore>eg. that version did not stop lumbermills spawning bove the treeline
23:48<chillcore>not the end of the workd but yeah
23:48<supermop>seems like that is something for industry newgrf to decide not code or patch
23:48<chillcore>still easy to break stuffs
23:48<supermop>if default lumbermill spawns at 20,000 ft thats ok
23:49<supermop>it just won't have anything to cut
23:49<chillcore>true but if I have no rainforest in tropical then those industries that are supposed to be there ... no matter how wel you code your newgrf
23:51<supermop>idk what if i play firs on a map with no water - no where for ports or fishing grounds
23:51<chillcore>there is always a bit of water
23:51<chillcore>min is 2 % I believe
23:51<chillcore>via gui anyways :P
23:52<supermop>in SE can make a map 100% flat land
23:52<supermop>my X road junctions are too boring visually
23:53<supermop>in city zones with sidewalk i have pedestrian crossings, but still the center looks too empty
23:55<supermop>in countryside I have only the stop lines, and it looks worse
23:55<supermop>I could put manholes in the center,
23:55<chillcore>In SE scenario creator is free ... and takes full reponsability too
23:55<chillcore>you could
23:56<supermop>or some of the curves lines they paint in large intersections to guide turning vehicles to correct lane?
23:57<chillcore>is the road very clean?
23:57<supermop>crosshatched stripes to warn cars agains blocking intersection
23:57<supermop>yes so far
23:57<chillcore>some dirt and or skiddmarks do wonders
23:57<supermop>i eventually want to add tire and oil stains
23:57<chillcore>try it on a layer ;)
23:58<supermop>in curves, should centerline be solid or dashed?
23:59<supermop>solid looks boring - but dashed is absurd as noone should be passing in a corner
23:59<chillcore>unless you can turn
23:59<chillcore>then solid with one stripe-y ...
---Logclosed Tue Mar 10 00:00:21 2015