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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-10

---Logopened Tue Mar 10 00:00:21 2015
---Daychanged Tue Mar 10 2015
00:00<supermop>I have non-sidewalk road as nice circular curve in corners
00:00<supermop>I wonder though about making city corners more square
00:04<chillcore>hmm how about just draw peeps digging road all the time? or is that too much realism :P
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12:24<Pulec>anyone starting cities skylines_
12:24<Pulec>that traffic managment seems almost openttdliky
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12:36<Zeetherdroid>I heard it's amazing
12:37<Zeetherdroid>It's making me want to go back to SimCity 4 too
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13:18<Samu>i just had an idea for trains crashing road vehicles
13:18<Samu>turn nearby stations rating to appalling
13:18<Samu>for both companies
13:25<Samu>good or bad idea?
13:28<Samu>or just for the train company
13:34<@Alberth>ha, I find a level crossing, buy a RV, and park it at the tracks
13:35<Samu>ok, for both then
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13:38<@Alberth>I am not even sure why it is detected at all, trucks can drive through other trucks, why should a train be different?
13:39<Taede>hysterical raisins?
13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27180 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-03-10 17:47:16 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<@DorpsGek>catalan - 16 changes by juanjo
13:47<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 4 changes by cuthbert
13:47<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by juanjo
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14:21<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
14:21<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 8 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <andythenorth> is cat asleep?
14:21<DanMacK>He should be round soon, lol
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14:26<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:27<Wolf01>"another tooth bite the dust"
14:29<Zeetherdroid>Welp, guess Top Gear is screwed
14:29<Zeetherdroid>Clarkson in his infinite idiocy went and got himself suspended
14:30<frosch123>maybe he can call top gun for backup
14:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the 64k vehicle limit was increased to something like 1M
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>i probably was told that already
14:33<frosch123>blame articulated vehicles :p
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14:45<andythenorth>cat is at the end of my garden, sat on the wall
14:45<andythenorth>looking at me
14:45<andythenorth>not my cat
14:45*andythenorth has no cat
14:46<@Alberth>ha, that's what people think, cats know better :p
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14:58<ub_umstieg>hi all today i did a new systemsetup and installed 1.5beta2 BUT the map creation is realy bad somany oilrigs just view tiles away from oilpruduction
14:58<andythenorth>map creation is just really bad
14:58<ub_umstieg>and most on the edges located
14:58<andythenorth>I don’t think anything changed for industry location in 1.5?
14:58<ub_umstieg>this has beeen mutch beter on 1.04
14:59<andythenorth>did you create hundreds of maps to test it? o_O
14:59<ub_umstieg>no only 4
15:00<ub_umstieg>i overlooked the first and thought bud luck
15:00<ub_umstieg>but then the second came in with lined up citys
15:01<ub_umstieg>the third had to many dimand
15:01<andythenorth>it’s just randomness being random
15:01<ub_umstieg>the 4th now is ok to play
15:01<andythenorth>it’s unfortunate, but random doesn’t guarantee playable maps
15:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27179 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2015-03-09 18:15:33 UTC)
15:02<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:02<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 10 changes by telanus
15:02<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
15:02<@DorpsGek>finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
15:02<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 9 changes by oofnik
15:02<@DorpsGek>italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
15:02<@DorpsGek>korean - 11 changes by Gimel3830, telk5093
15:02<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
15:02<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
15:02<@DorpsGek>romanian - 29 changes by kneekoo
15:02<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 4 changes by GunChleoc
15:02<@DorpsGek>slovak - 17 changes by Milsa
15:02<@DorpsGek>spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
15:02<ub_umstieg>as i do only play one map per real year i found a god one
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15:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27179 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2015-03-09 18:15:33 UTC)
15:04<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:04<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 10 changes by telanus
15:04<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
15:04<@DorpsGek>finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
15:04<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 9 changes by oofnik
15:04<@DorpsGek>italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
15:04<@DorpsGek>korean - 11 changes by Gimel3830, telk5093
15:04<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
15:04<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
15:04<@DorpsGek>romanian - 29 changes by kneekoo
15:04<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 4 changes by GunChleoc
15:04<@DorpsGek>slovak - 17 changes by Milsa
15:04<@DorpsGek>spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
15:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27180 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2015-03-10 17:47:16 UTC)
15:04<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:04<@DorpsGek>catalan - 16 changes by juanjo
15:04<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 4 changes by cuthbert
15:04<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by juanjo
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15:43<Samu>oh busybee is done by alberth? interesting
15:44<@Alberth>andy also helped
15:44<Samu>i once sent steel to a factory
15:44<Samu>just had to build the steel mill near it
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15:48<andythenorth>DanMacK won’t you come back :(
15:50<V453000>so yeah the train I was rigging, I just discovered that making it render properly is pretty much impossible
15:50<V453000>the only option I seem to have is to freeze the rig and create meshes from it in a couple forms ._.
15:50<V453000>but cant leave it animatable
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15:51<V453000>hm, Probably
15:51<V453000>fuck why do I realize there are other ways just the second I write stuff down
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15:58<@Alberth>it's called teddy bear programming
15:59<V453000>yeah I read about that already
15:59<V453000>I actually laughed. :D
16:00<V453000>but yeah I realize how important it iz
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16:01<Samu>is there any AI capable of dealing with infrastructure maintenance?
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16:03<V453000>omfg this new idea solves so many things
16:03<V453000>it wont be easy, but it is already so helpful :)
16:04<@Alberth>thinking about a problem in the right way is halfway to solving it
16:04<V453000>basically when creating the rig- the mechanism how it works - links between objects how they move,rotate, ... which is the drivetrain of the wheels, relies on locking some axis in movement in order to make some of the pistons move properly, etc
16:05<V453000>which is downright useless once I need the engine to rotate in order to render
16:05<V453000>- so I will just make the camera and sun rotate
16:05<V453000>that is one thing
16:05<V453000>until now I tried to use some very over-complicated methods to just do the rig "better", but some parts are probably just a no-go
16:05<frosch123>sounds like you have train-centric view of the universe
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16:06<Samu>yesterday i was talking to someone about ai framework
16:06<@Alberth>a common concept in this channel :p
16:06<V453000>then there is another issue, the whole rig also has to scale in all views - to 83% in normal, to 116% on diagonal
16:06<V453000>XD ok frosch123
16:06<V453000>and the rigs of course also failed miserably at scaling
16:06<V453000>good thing from this point is that some methods sucked at rotating, some sucked at scaling
16:07<V453000>since I only have to worry about scaling now, I can use some of them :)
16:07<V453000> /monologue over, andythenorth is next
16:07<Samu>can each ai company have it's own thread usage?
16:07<Samu>putting all them to the same thread slows down things :(
16:08<andythenorth>V453000: I got nothing today :|
16:08<andythenorth>I am thinking of starting a new game though
16:08<andythenorth>with new Busy Bee
16:08<@planetmaker>Samu, each AI company does have its own thread
16:08<andythenorth>also when is someone going to fix consists? :(
16:08<andythenorth>and also a 5th transport type
16:08<andythenorth>and map gen
16:08-!-Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
16:08<andythenorth>and % full load orders
16:09<Rubidium>Samu: yeah, but putting a guard at each tile and object to ensure only one AI is interacting with it is even more expensive
16:09<andythenorth>so many ponies
16:09<V453000>I just donated some shit to so they gave me access to their graphics wiki ... they also do 3D -> sprites, more specifically blender ... but regardless it is very interesting
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16:10<frosch123>V453000: visit them in person :p they are in prague after all
16:10<V453000>idk? :D
16:11<frosch123>they want to add more train stuff iirc :p
16:11<V453000>lol indeed
16:11<V453000>they are in prague
16:12<frosch123>hmm, though i think the graphics guy is in spain
16:12<Samu>only one ai company can interact at a time per tile?
16:12<frosch123>the devs are in prague
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16:13<Samu>could they queue actions?
16:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: orders need to be broken down in smaller units, imho
16:13<@Alberth>where a train can do several at the same time in some way
16:13<V453000>frosch123: do you play that cancer too or? :D
16:14<frosch123>V453000: sure, but pipe networks annoy me
16:14<V453000>I hate when you pollute your pipe with some different cargo
16:14<V453000>but other than that no problemo :D
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16:15<V453000>my attempt to make a gigantic mainline of belts has not been realized yet though XD separate cargoes are just so much more efficient
16:15<andythenorth>Alberth: parallel orders? o_O
16:16<frosch123>V453000: i think the only way to make oil at least somewhat interesting is to transport it in barrels :p
16:16<V453000>more problem I have with it when I compare it to openttd in the end-game and replayability
16:16<V453000>yeah ... I didnt try the barrel method yet though
16:16<@planetmaker>how does that compare there, V453000 ?
16:16<andythenorth>V453000: it’s better? o_O
16:16<@planetmaker>I wondered previously already about that game, but... still unsure
16:17<V453000>pm, when I build stuff in factorio, it -just-works- and you dont need to change it anymore
16:17<frosch123>i think there is too much freedom in factorio
16:17<frosch123>the landscape provides no restrictions
16:17<frosch123>it's like ottd with copy&paste patch :)
16:17<V453000>it is a lot of fun to set stuff up, but after some time it gets rather repetitive
16:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: expanding to more complicated mega-orders seems the wrong solution, eg for unloading some of the cargo, for example
16:17<V453000>in the end of the game the only job you have is to get more resources for the expiring ones
16:17<frosch123>i wondered whether it gets better in coop multiplayer
16:17<V453000>while in OpenTTD, there is always something you could do better, and it helps
16:18<frosch123>but yes, i wondered about the end-game
16:18<V453000>I think coop multiplayer will make it more interesting as it will get a lot bigger scale - rail tracks will get interesting, etc
16:18<frosch123>the science packs are kind of stupid, because at some point you do not need them
16:18<V453000>now belts > tracks a lot
16:18<V453000>well yeah but thats fine, just need use for them later
16:18<frosch123>so, i wondered whether the goal should be maximize effiency modules
16:18<V453000>even so, how
16:19<V453000>you maximize them, fine, done, end of game nothing to see here, move on to another 20hour game
16:19<V453000>with multiplayer probably more than 20h
16:19<V453000>but still
16:19<V453000>the thing I miss is something to force you to _within one game_ improve your designs
16:19<V453000>if you make a great furnace design, it probably works just as well as a worse one on bigger footprint
16:20<frosch123>the idea of efficency modules would be, that it slows down everything, so you need more, and in the end produces even more
16:20<frosch123>i do not know whether it is actually solveable :p
16:20<V453000>it is partially remedied by the pollution which makes it harder, so you can decide to build big and fat, but face consequences - OR - play nice and small and efficient
16:20<V453000>yeah frosch123 I dont think the thing is solvable, it is just a systematic thing that openttd kind of offers
16:21<V453000>though in openttd it is very much given by the fact that original industries have so huge production cap that it feels like infinity
16:21<Samu>nerf trains
16:21<V453000>I think something like pollution is one of the possible big ways to go
16:22<V453000>e.g. making it really have big impact, once you reach too much pollution, aliens attack WAY more
16:22<V453000>to some degree that you find it really hard to defend
16:22<V453000>now you just spam laser turrets - I even use them for offense
16:22<frosch123>yup, laser turret are easiest for offence :p
16:22<V453000>if you had to think about your network as a whole, and have the main idea to minimize pollution, it would get very interesting
16:23<V453000>my so far top startegy is to get laser turret tech ASAP, and then just make mass production of turrets
16:23<frosch123>i don't like personal fighthing, too risky to get stuck between some trees :p
16:23<Samu>disable plant tree button to please authorities
16:23<V453000>yeah well ... turrets, big shield, bots :)
16:23<V453000>the bots arent even necessary but later they are handy
16:23<frosch123>otoh, i wonder whether feeding turrets with bullets would be interesting
16:24<frosch123>i mean with transport belt feeding
16:24<V453000>idk, it is a great game, one of the best smart games, probably 2nd after openttd for me in this regard, but lacks something that would make me play it for longer
16:24<frosch123>but i actually don't know which deal more damage
16:24<V453000>lasers deal more I think
16:24<V453000>but I havent tested
16:24<frosch123>actually, it would be more balanced if bullets would make more damage than lasers
16:25<V453000>but sure, though electricity would have to be a LOT harder to get, or lasers would have to consume WAY more
16:25<Samu>what are you talking about? i thought it was openttd
16:25<V453000>otherwise piercing ammo is just expensive
16:25<V453000>yeah it probably would
16:25<frosch123>well, once my batteries ran out at night :p
16:25<V453000>lasers/solar energy for no upkeep cost, bullets/coal for raw power
16:26<V453000>would make sense but the idea of offense with towers would move to even more insanity with bullets XD
16:26<V453000>though admittedly filling turrets with ammo manually is PITA
16:27<frosch123>actually, i started playing in god-mode, i.e. without character
16:27<frosch123>then pipes are less annoying because you cannot block your path
16:27<V453000>XD I didnt know you can even do that
16:27<V453000>but yeah I basically only build the ground pipes
16:27<V453000>mainly for that reason
16:28<frosch123>yeah, that is some kind of conflict i have
16:28<frosch123>either build stuff compact and get stuck everywhere, and run out of space
16:28<frosch123>to leave much space inbetween which makes it kind of boring
16:28<frosch123>there are no real space restrictions
16:28<frosch123>unless i completely failed at figuring out the map generator :p
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16:30<V453000>the map seems endless yes :)
16:30<Samu>more disasters
16:30<V453000>which is also retarded efficiency wise because you can have like 8 beacons around everything and be done with it, fuck space
16:31<Samu>high production of coal, higher risk of mine collapsing
16:31<V453000>nyway enough rant, the game is in alpha and is fun for MANY hours already, I think I played about 40 hours total and there is still a lot to try, I never had the flying logistic robots and a lot more stuff for example
16:31<frosch123>planetmaker: btw have you seen the trailer? it's awesome :)
16:31<Samu>what game
16:32<frosch123>V453000: did you try the logic signals?
16:32<V453000>openttd still stays n1 in endless improving etc though :P
16:32<V453000>I didnt really mess with the trains much
16:32<V453000>didnt try any signals
16:32<V453000>I found belts to be interesting enough
16:32<frosch123>yeah, i only managed 3 stations so far, with a single train
16:33<frosch123>i have no idea what scale to build to need more than one train :p
16:33<V453000>XD yeah
16:33<V453000>I think the train is mainly multiplayer thing
16:33<frosch123>yup, i also focussed on belts :)
16:33<V453000>you really need gigantic distances to make them worth anything
16:33<@planetmaker>frosch123, I watched on trailer some time ago
16:33<V453000>not even considering the time you need to put into research and actually setting it up
16:33<frosch123>recombining and shuffinglin cargos between the sides is the most fun part for me, i guess
16:34<V453000>that is a nice mechanic of the belt
16:34<V453000>I often combine 2 cargoes, one on each half :)
16:34<V453000>it is probably the easiest way to get easy array of lab pack 3 (blue) assembling machines
16:34<V453000>since it needs like 4 ingredients
16:34<V453000>all of them being advanced stuff
16:35<Samu>what are you guys talking about
16:36<V453000>moar doom later, gnight :)
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19:20<supermop>almost done modeling roads
19:20<supermop>just need to decide what to do about road termini
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20:12<Samu>how come i closed my openttd server?
20:12<Samu>it just vanished?
20:14<Samu>do you have a log of the list of servers? or someone have such log?
20:14<Samu>when did it vanish?
20:30<Oddingar><V453000> though in openttd it is very much given by the fact that original industries have so huge production cap that it feels like infinity - what could be interesting would be if the cargo prices varied a bit based on demand/supply, if there's a huge production the price should go down
20:31<Samu>more disasters!
20:31<Samu>i wonder what happened to my openttd server, it just vanished
20:32<Oddingar>sorrry, can't help on that :P
20:32<Samu>had to start it again, but have no idea what happened
20:33<Oddingar>sorry to hear that :P
20:33<Samu>i could have mistakenly closed it, but it always warns me if i want to exit openttd, it wasn't this
20:33<Oddingar>you sure you haven't been drinking?
20:34<Samu>i never drink
20:34<Samu>guess i better make use of autosaves
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20:44<Samu>just tested CivilAI
20:45<Samu>crazy town sizes
20:46<Samu>clean usage of roads
20:47<Samu>might have to deal down in the number of busses
20:49<Samu>1700 busses
20:50<Samu>it wasn't supposed to be limited to 500
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21:14<Samu>OpenTTD just closed itself
21:14<Samu>i was navigating in the story book
21:15<Samu>and boom it's gone
21:15<Samu>game script was Awards
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21:16<Samu>quite an easy to do crash
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21:21<+glx>no crash message ?
21:21<Samu>nop, openttd just disappears
21:21<+glx>retry in visual studio then
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21:23<+glx>it was a clean version or a modified version ?
21:27<Samu>it was 1.5.0-beta2
21:27<Samu>visual studio is using another version
21:28<+glx>you need to try with a clean trunk version
21:31<Samu>it's a clean version
21:31<Samu>they're updated isn't it?
21:32<Samu>Unhandled exception at 0x012C64CB in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x04364034.
21:35<Samu>it is pointing me to this
21:35<Samu> *dst = ComposeColourRGBANoCheck(src_px->r, src_px->g, src_px->b, src_px->a, *dst);
21:35<Samu>line 123 of 32bpp:anim.cpp
21:36<Samu>> openttd.exe!Blitter_32bppAnim::Draw<1>(const Blitter::BlitterParams * bp=0x0018d2b8, ZoomLevel zoom=ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN) Line 123 C++
21:36<Samu>so hmm what now?
21:40<Samu>i thought OpenGFX was 8bpp
21:43<+glx>blitter and grf are unrelated :)
21:44<Samu>- dst 0x04364034 {data=??? b=??? g=??? ...} Colour *
21:44<Samu> data <Unable to read memory>
21:44<Samu> b <Unable to read memory>
21:44<+glx>dst is invalid
21:44<Samu>all those with unable to read memory
21:44<Samu>data, b, g, r, a
21:44<+glx>don't try to read anything from it (it's the cause of the crash)
21:45<Samu>and in some other place a bit up, there's a y with red
21:45<Samu> y 26 int
21:46<Samu>+ this 0x025e3a48 {anim_buf=0x05ac0040 {32849} anim_buf_width=1280 anim_buf_height=720 ...} Blitter_32bppAnim *
21:47<Samu>"this" is also red, expanding it lists those dst with unable to read memory
21:47<Samu>oh crap, no, sorry
21:47<Samu>it's separate
21:47<+glx>the main problem is the wrong address for dst
21:48<Samu>ok going backwards
21:48<Samu> case BM_COLOUR_REMAP: Draw<BM_COLOUR_REMAP>(bp, zoom); return;
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21:49<Samu> BlitterFactory::GetCurrentBlitter()->Draw(&bp, mode, zoom);
21:49<+glx>is it easy to reproduce ?
21:49<Samu>it was for me
21:49<Samu>game script was Awards, downloaded from content dl
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21:50<Samu>leave it at default settings
21:50<Samu>start single player game
21:50<Samu>open story book, and navigate around
21:50<Samu>it suddenly poofs
21:51<Samu>lasts a few in-game months without crashing
21:51<Samu>but it happens
21:52<Samu>i had 1 BorkAI running too, but I don't think it would matter
21:52<Samu>let me try without ai
21:56<Samu>so it seems I can't make it crash now
21:57<Samu>requires an AI running alongside?
21:58<Samu>starting AI
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21:58<Samu>yep, crashed
21:58<Samu>with ai
21:58<+glx>maybe it's just because the AI was playing while you were just doing nothing
21:59<Samu>i was navigating in the story book of AI
21:59<Samu>i had 1 train
21:59<Samu>gonna try 2 companies, but neither being ai
21:59<Samu>so, multiplayer now
22:02<Samu>or, to be precise, openttd vanishes
22:03<Samu>i was navigating my own company this time
22:03<Samu>seems to trigger with 2 companies at least
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 11 00:00:47 2015