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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-16

---Logopened Mon Mar 16 00:00:54 2015
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00:33<chillcore>good morning interwebz o/
01:00<supermop>hi
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01:10<chillcore>hello supermop
01:12<supermop>hows terrain going?
01:14<chillcore>it's comming slow but steadily
01:14<chillcore>thing is I got to keep myself from tuning :P
01:15<chillcore>it works but the gui stuffs ... so much interaction and other things that come into play
01:15<chillcore>instead of just the perlin noise I gave to take mapsize into consideration and now snowline/desertline too
01:17<chillcore>one major hurdle is my incompetence when it comes to pinters and shortening code
01:18<chillcore>everything works if I just write it out like I have it in my head
01:20<supermop>ah
01:20<chillcore>and then there is still that mysterious bug that causes glitches ... it is in trunk but it only happens once in a blue moon
01:21<supermop>huh? for tall heights?
01:21<supermop>is the maximum safe height of a building still the same now?
01:21<chillcore>when it happens I make a debug build and it is gone so I can not debug properly unless I make debug builds all the time which are slow
01:22<chillcore>nah it is not the high buildings glitching
01:22<chillcore>and yes that shouldbe fixed in trunk now
01:22<chillcore>the values were too low
01:23<chillcore>if only I could remeber which commit it was in ... it was commited by frosh IIRC
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01:23<chillcore>you should be safe with building 220 pixels high at zoom 1
01:24<chillcore>but don't pin me on that value ;)
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01:25<supermop>hmm that only lets me make buildings 66m high
01:31<chillcore>oh you've got scale in openttd?
01:31<chillcore>:P
01:32<chillcore>you can go higher if you make it multi-tile structure
01:32<Eddi|zuHause>66m is really high for a building
01:33<chillcore>hello eddi o/
01:33<supermop>it would only be around 20 floors
01:33<Eddi|zuHause>i should be sleeping, but i'm kinda sick
01:35<Eddi|zuHause>so? my city has maybe 10 buildings coming even close to 20 floors
01:36<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of buildings have 4-6 floors
01:37<Eddi|zuHause>in less dense areas 2...
01:39<supermop>well that can vary a lot from region to region based on local planning constraints and incentives
01:39<Eddi|zuHause>and i suppose that goes for almost all cities in the world, except maybe manhattan
01:39<Eddi|zuHause>or tokyo
01:39<supermop>most american cites are very low rise 1-3 floors, but have a small core of 30-50 floor buildings
01:40<supermop>tokyo is actually majority 10 floors or so except in certain areas where better bedrock makes 50 floor buildings seismically safe
01:41<Eddi|zuHause>look at paris, you don't find any large buildings except for the eiffel tower...
01:41<supermop>yes, because they do not allow them!
01:41<supermop>except at the edges of the city, places like la defense
01:41<Eddi|zuHause>central london doesn't either
01:42<Eddi|zuHause>the only place i know that has skyscrapers is frankfurt
01:42<supermop>well there are a couple very tall buildings in London, but not in the 300+m range like you get in asia
01:43<supermop>but then places like shanghai, traditionally 3-4 story shophouses, now has a handful of 400+m buildings
01:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, the high buildings are in the docklands, which is closer to what la defense is to paris
01:44<chillcore>our highest buildings have sopething like 20 floors too
01:44<supermop>or shard in southbank
01:44<chillcore>the exceptions are few
01:44<supermop>melbourne and sydney are quite tall in the cbd, then very low surrounding it
01:45<supermop>that kind of contrast would be nice
01:45<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: for this game, i find the skyscrapers like in TTRS really out of place
01:45<Eddi|zuHause>things like that should be more or less unique, but the way this game works you need buildings that are very generic and can be repeated over and over
01:46<supermop>me too, but i feel like it is because they are drawn completely differently than the houses
01:46<supermop>and they are 1x1 tiles
01:47<supermop>if a house is 1 tile a 100m building should really be at least 2x2
01:48<supermop>20 floors is enough for i think 95% of all buildings in any set
01:48<Eddi|zuHause>assuming a rigid scale probably won't get you very far in this game
01:48<supermop>it would be nice though to have maybe 6 or so buildings noticeably taller than anything else to grow in the biggest of big cities
01:49<supermop>limited to one instance each per map
01:49<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if you can actually do that
01:50<Eddi|zuHause>once per city may be possible
01:50<supermop>japan houses lets you choose skyscrapers and unique buildings to be once per city, once per map, or unlimited
01:51<Eddi|zuHause>because you need to store the "this was already built" bit somewhere, and you can't search the entire map for each building to be constructed
01:51<supermop>i usually play that set on once per map and rarely see the skyscrapers
01:52<supermop>i feel like the lack of scale actually hurts things like ttrs though, as the skyscrapers are drawn as if they are tall 200m buildings, but then shrunk to fit on one tile
01:52<Eddi|zuHause>i never tried that set
01:52<Eddi|zuHause>and don't know how they do it
01:52<supermop>as a result the floor-to-floor height is just a couple pixels, and it's 6-8 for short buildings and houses
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>the default houses are full of these scale issues
01:53<supermop>of course
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>you could also go the UK houses road, and make the small buildings occupy half a tile
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01:56<supermop>yeah
01:57<supermop>i like that about japan houses, the old shops and houses fit several to a tile
01:58<supermop>the tall building in that set are only 20-30 floors at most, but seem well proportioned on 1 tile next to the tiny little houses
01:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, you won't be able to do anything about the maximum height of a house
01:59<supermop>i like the implicit suggestion that there are small intra-tile lanes and street that are not passable to commercial vehicles but still are there
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02:00<GriffinOneTwo>!info
02:15<supermop>i wish tramway had separate sidewalks than regular road
02:16<supermop>the driveway and crosswalk cuttings i added for street sidewalks look stupid if the sidewalk is along a tramway with no road
02:17<supermop>and i cant just draw optimized tram sidewalks as part of the tramway as they would then show up even when building tramway through rural areas
02:17<supermop>so i guess i'll just remove those details
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02:47<Supercheese>Huh, I just realized you can sort-of have diagonal stations by just removing the "train is longer than station" overhang penalty and build a single-tile station with several diagonal tracks before and/or after it
02:48<Supercheese>it's not 100% diagonal, but nearly
02:49<chillcore>screenshot?
02:51<Supercheese>well, it doesn't look very clean since it's a 1-tile station with lots of bare track
02:53<Supercheese>and you have to have a patched version to do that
02:55<Supercheese>Specifically this patch: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1085067#p1085067
02:59<chillcore>hmm that code only disables the loading/unloading penalt?
02:59<chillcore>how does it enable diagonal stations ... can't see what you mean in the screenshots at first glance
02:59<supermop>seems simpler to just photoshop some diagonal and sloped ogfx platform sprites, as well as for a few gpl'd station grfs
03:00<supermop>then convince people to include those in their grfs, then convince someone to add or update the old patch that allowed diagonal or sloped stations
03:01<Supercheese>yes, there would surely be better ways
03:04<supermop>ogfx+ stations would be nice
03:04<chillcore>hmm ... still looking for 'the' screenshot
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03:07<chillcore>oh right I get it now ... you make a 1 tile staion and aply patch to not have slower loading times
03:07<supermop>not sure if it would best be in pixel art or rendered
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04:24<supermop>ok i've figured out how to do my tramway terminus
04:25<supermop>can stations use 2cc?
04:25<chillcore>I believe so yes
04:25<supermop>i feel like i was never able to get it to work on my rail sheds
04:25<chillcore>reasoning: they are company owned
04:26<chillcore>I'd have to check to be sure
04:26<supermop>are there any other cases where non-vehicles use the 2nd cc?
04:26<chillcore>HQ
04:27<chillcore>hm I think everything company owned really
04:27<supermop>i am thinking it may be nice to have the little sign on bus stops and tram stops in 2nd cc, in case one likes to differentiate tram and rail service
04:28<supermop>now what would be really crazy would be: bus stop on road has sign in whatever cc is assigned to Buses, stop on tramway has cc assigned to trams, and stop on both has a sign in both colors
04:29<supermop>here buses and trams never share stops normally very few areas where they run on same street, and in those cases the stops are a few 10s of meters apart
04:30<supermop>but the buses are orange and have an orange sign, trams are green and havve a green sign (trains are blue, so stops for rail replacement buses have blue sign)
04:31<supermop>anyway i have no idea how to do CC in 32bpp
04:31<supermop>so i will just make the sign grey for now
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04:35<chillcore>it should work the same as 8bpp
04:36<chillcore>simple masks
04:36<chillcore>not sure if the wiki has a comprhensive list of 2 cc stuffs
04:36<supermop>i am not sure
04:36<supermop>but i wonder about pikka's way
04:37<chillcore>I guess peeps just find out if when they get there?
04:37<chillcore>pikka's way?
04:37<supermop>where he has separate renders for each CC
04:37<supermop>in pineapple trains
04:37<chillcore>hmm ... you mean he uses liveries
04:38<chillcore>not sure as I have not checked
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04:38<chillcore>but that is what comes to mind when you said seperate renders
04:39<supermop>anyway not a big problem now
04:39<chillcore>true
04:40<supermop>i am trying to keep myself from starting to model bus and tram stops
04:40<chillcore>good luck with that ;)
04:40<supermop>as i think it will slow me down and distract me from finishing the basic roads
04:40<chillcore>I know what you mean ...
04:40<supermop>once there is a version 0.1 of road then I can do bus stops
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04:41<chillcore>hi alberth o/
04:41<@Alberth>hi hi
04:41<supermop>same with extra details and different stules of road to choose from
04:41<supermop>hi Alberth
04:41<V453000>just see NUTS documentation :)
04:42<chillcore>ye it is best to get the basics covered before venturing there
04:42<V453000>I think it needs some polishing and considering, but yeah
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04:42<supermop>best to get the basic done first even if it looks funny when RVs drive on wrong side of road
04:42<chillcore>I posted another update alberth, I've got the magic boxes working properly
04:43<chillcore>not yet the slidy bits unfortunatly ... so much to do still
04:43<supermop>(ie drawing separate road markings for AU, JP, EU, UK, NA, etc)
04:43<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki/tech Company Colour infrastructure
04:43<@Alberth>chillcore: :O I wondered what magic boxes you were talking about :)
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04:44<chillcore>empty boxes without sliders hehe, see screenshot
04:45<supermop>thanks V453000
04:45<V453000>yw
04:45<V453000>it isnt very clear what I am doing there unless you have after effects, but yeah
04:45<supermop>should be simple enough to render a little stripe mask over the bus stop sign
04:45<Flygon>On a semi-related note. Is it possible to somehow implement bus/tram stops that only stick to one side of the road?
04:45<chillcore>alberth: left_click = false in the code is so you can click-drag instead of clicking a million times
04:46<V453000>basic points: render the CC things separately, take that, do something with it
04:46<supermop>Flygon: not yet
04:46<Flygon>Bugger.
04:46<V453000>in zbase, the something is paint it all with 1 CC colour and let the game sort it out
04:46<supermop>fancier road stops seem to be waiting on new airports
04:46<Flygon>If we're ever going to replicate Calder Freeway's randomass middle-of-nowhere bus stops
04:46<V453000>in NUTS I try to palletize the 32bpp, to no great results yet
04:46<V453000>much
04:46<Flygon>We're gonna need them single sided and just signs in the ground :B
04:46<Flygon>(Sunbury-Moonee Ponds bus)
04:47<@Alberth>chillcore: ah right. wouldn't just 'click somewhere' work?
04:47<chillcore>sure but you can nt drag then
04:47<supermop>the basic road stop allows vehicles from both sides to stop
04:47<@Alberth>I'd have to try it to see how it works, but not now
04:47<supermop>in the future one may make a stop that only serves one side
04:47<chillcore>whenever is fine alberth, just wanted to let yu know
04:49<@Alberth>chillcore: hmm, indeed, I guess you need something like the scrollbar. The scrollbar also has some trickery to reduce the number of clicks
04:49<@Alberth>still anooyed by not allowing right-click in scrollbars though :p
04:49<chillcore>Alberth: I might need some help to shorten parts of my code ... this pointer stuffs is holding me back and I keep getting crashes. however don't feel obliged
04:49<chillcore>why would you need right-click alberth?
04:50<@Alberth>I tend to want a 'go here' click
04:50<chillcore>and left-clicking lower does not cut it?
04:50<@Alberth>ie just jump to that position
04:50<@Alberth>left click goes down 1 page
04:50<chillcore>I see
04:51<@Alberth>my window manager uses middle-click for that function, very nice
04:52<chillcore>my code just takes into account where in the box you clicked (not my code, the one I stole from music_gui)
04:52<@Alberth>yeah, I'd expect something like that
04:52<chillcore>I have not yet looked at how the scrollbars work
04:53<chillcore>but yeah music_gui works like that ... the slider just moves where you clicked
04:53<chillcore>that's it
04:53<@Alberth>I am happy to help you out, but please make a small description of what exactly you want me to look at, and what the problem actually is
04:54<chillcore>hmm ... basically the loading saving parameters code can be shorter
04:54<@Alberth>7z compressed is 24KB, unpacked it's a lot more
04:54<@Alberth>it can be as easy as "have a look at code around there and there" or so
04:54<supermop>Flygon: it would be nice if stop graphics could change based on townzone, sidewalk, or road/tramway, but i am not aware of any means for that
04:55<Flygon>Hopefully, there'll be a means in future, then
04:55<Flygon>It'd be amazing to, like
04:55<@Alberth>chillcore: if possible, please send me a PM, so I can find it again :)
04:55<supermop>i don't think there is any newgrf spec for road stops, only to replace default sprites
04:55<Flygon>Have variety from "Pole in Ground" to "Tram Superstop" or "Sunbury Bus Exchange"
04:56<chillcore>Alberth: ye the thing has grown a bit ... biggest prob I have is puttin setting in an arreay and then being able to change the values without errors
04:56<supermop>currrently you could have several styles and choose one by parameter or date (like road surface) but all stops will be the same
04:56<chillcore>but yeah I'll send you a pm as that will be easier to focus one one specific thing indeed
04:56<chillcore>alberth ^^^
04:57<@Alberth>ok, thanks
04:57<chillcore>no thank you ;)
05:01<supermop>my plan (and i don't even want to think about this now as it will distract me...) is to have the stops be low platforms that are an extension of the sidewalks
05:02<supermop>it may look odd for buses as the street will narrow at each bus stop rather than widen, but I think it will look best overall
05:02<supermop>then i can later add an alternate that is just a pole on the sidewalk
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05:39<chillcore>bbl ;)
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06:33<supermop>i should just ask for payment for my freelance work in the form of a new computer
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07:03<@Alberth>it's quite difficult to get food in exchange for a computer, at a super market :)
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07:09<bereasonable>Hey guys! Got another question. It's another signal one I'm afraid! On Supercheese 's advice I switched to One-Way Paths. However, I've got a train who's having some trouble finding a path. The one just before the station. There are two open platforms! http://i.imgur.com/yq77OVT.jpg?1
07:11<bereasonable>Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, my newb signalling is improving.. slightly.
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>have you checked the electrification?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>are 90° turns disabled?
07:13<bereasonable>90degs are on, it's not electrified but I just upgraded the track in case. The old trains can still run on the electric tracks I assume ?
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>and try enabling "show reserved paths", sometimes weird things happen
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>also, make .png screenshots, not .jpg
07:15<bereasonable>Oh, shit. Sorry, I thought I could use the clipboard upload. No idea why they would make it automatically a jpg.
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>there might be a checkbox on upload saying "disable processing this image" or somesuch
07:17<bereasonable>He left the station - I'm going to stop him in the platform so I can see if it happens again.
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>thing is, jpg makes the image both undecipherable, and actually larger in size
07:17<bereasonable>Yeah JPGs are garbage, 100%
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>jpg is fine for actual photos. but anything computer generated will be terrible as jpg
07:19<bereasonable>So the train is just reserving the track it's on, but 'waiting for free path' even though there is defs a free path. hrm.
07:19<bereasonable>http://imgur.com/ZXnrxOg
07:20<bereasonable>I thought I just needed one path signal at the start of the branch, should I have one at the start of each platform too as well as at the end?
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>so, what i think happens is that the two platforms are shorter than the 3rd, and the train will avoid going to a too short platform, and wait for the long platform to free up
07:25<bereasonable>Geez. I'm an idiot! They are shorter, I didn't even realise. let me add that extra length
07:26<bereasonable>Yep. you're 100% right. Thanks! boy, don't I feel silly. :P
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>these catenary poles creep me out with the two red pixels. they look like signals...
07:28<bereasonable>Heh. What do you normally play? By which I mean do you use a GRF or something to change.. either the signals or the catenary poles?
07:28<bereasonable>I'm still fairly new so always asking people about their settings/grfs
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>i use the "dutch catenary" set. but it also depends on which baseset you use
07:29<bereasonable>oh, they look nice.
07:29<bereasonable>And distinctly un-signal-like which is handy.
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>i put that in [newgrf-static] in the config, so it will always be enabled even on multiplayer servers that don't have it
07:30<bereasonable>Oh, I had no idea you could do that. That's useful.
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>only a handful of newgrfs can be used this way
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>specifically, ones that don't affect gameplay
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, nobody ever put this on the GUI
07:32<bereasonable>Makes sense, I imagine it would refuse to work if you tried to put in gameplay newgrfs. It's cool you can have your own graphics though, if you want.
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it'll just not activate
07:33<bereasonable>I've just been playing vanilla because still have very little idea what I'm doing.
07:36<bereasonable>Anyway, back to the trains. Thank you for your help :)
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09:07<Samu>i found a bug
09:08<Samu>i have a train with service interval of 150%
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09:11<Samu>actually, more than 1
09:12<Samu>i'm submiting bug report
09:13<Samu>oh, it's similar to this
09:13<Samu>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6248?string=service+interval&project=1&search_name=&type%5B0%5D=&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=
09:14<Samu>erm,, sorry big link
09:17<Samu>nevermind, that report is false
09:18<Samu>i'm opening a new task
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09:32<Samu>bug: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6254
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09:42<Eddi|zuHause>that can happen if you convert the service interval from days to percent.
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>150 days will become 150%
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't adjust afterwards, it's your fault
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09:52<Samu>how's that my fault?
09:53<Samu>i have default set to 15% interval
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09:58<@Alberth>so what's the error? it seems to behave as you specified
09:59<Samu>150%
09:59<Samu>~it's over 100%
10:00<@Alberth>and?
10:00<Samu>255 breakdowns, never servicing
10:00<@Alberth>sure, you shouldn't specify 150%
10:01<@Alberth>just as you shouldn't specify 100,000 days or so
10:01<Samu>the game doesn't even let me put a value over 90
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10:01<Samu>that 150% was there, I didn't set that
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10:41<Eddi|zuHause>i told you how you get that...
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>also, default as 15% is probably not useful either
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10:45<Samu>seems good
10:45<Samu>how many days from 22 may to 13 sep
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12:09<LordAro>this Cities: Skylines is rather fun
12:11<__ln__>yes it is
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>is that something like sim city?
12:12<__ln__>very much like
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12:30<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: it's the game sim city 2013 should have been
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12:45<@Terkhen>hello
12:47<@Alberth>hello
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27189 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-03-16 18:45:22 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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13:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>we should totally use this: https://github.com/lhartikk/AstroBuild
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14:30<@Terkhen>that's awesome
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14:48<Samu>omg these strange bugs poping out of nowhere :(
14:49<Samu>I have a docks with goods, but i have no ship taking goods there
14:49<Samu>why does it have goods?
14:49<Samu>it shouldn't
14:51<@Alberth>enabled dumping of cargos at stations without actual demand?
14:51<+glx>or a ship stopped there once
14:52<Samu>no
14:52<Samu>there are ships there, but they're taking fruits
14:52<Samu>all of them, I confirmed
14:53<@Alberth>for the entire length of the game?
14:53<Samu>let me look at the autosave
14:53<@Alberth>don't bother :)
14:56<Samu>dock was there since 2 jan 1947
14:56<Samu>it's 1992 now
14:56<Samu>a factory spawned nearby
14:57<@Alberth>k
14:57<Samu>i sent trucks with rubber and copper ore to the factory, it's a truck station separate from the dock
14:57<@Alberth>you so enabled dropping produced cargo onto the station without having a demand?
14:57<Samu>I didn't
14:58<Samu>this dock was from a bankrupted company, but when I saw it, it had no ships
14:58<Samu>i used it to transport fruit
14:59<Samu>it's the same savegame from the bug report
14:59<@Alberth>you use a nightly or a 1.5 beta?
14:59<Samu>1.5 beta 2
14:59<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6254/getfile/10164/Whitleigh%20Transport,%201965-02-24.sav
15:00<Samu>that's the same dock, in 1965
15:00<Samu>Nantley Valley
15:00<@Alberth>yeah, well, just don't touch the goods then, and they will disappear in about 2 years
15:00<Samu>do you think there was a ship with goods in there once?
15:01<+glx>probably
15:01<@Alberth>either that, or the dock is connected to some other station platform, which has goods transport
15:01<@Alberth>or had goods transport
15:02<Samu>lol, there wasn't even a factory in 1965
15:02<+glx>maybe the wrong ship got there at the beginning before the factory happened
15:04<Samu>I'm not certain if my opponent sent any ship to that dock, but if he did, it would have been for fruits
15:04<Samu>how could I tell?
15:04<+glx>you can't, but when a vehicle accepting a given cargo visit a station a bit is set
15:05<+glx>meaning the station will received this cargo to be transported
15:05-!-Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
15:06<+glx>and sending the wrong vehicle can happen, especially if it's a vehicle needing a refit
15:06<Samu>hmm, I see
15:07<Samu>it must have been him without me noticing
15:08<Samu>when I got his company, there wasn't any ship for his company, but the docks and ship depots were there
15:08<Samu>it was set to transport fruit, but it was missing ships
15:08<Samu>the docks were at fruit and at food processing plant
15:09<Samu>must pay more attention
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15:13<Wolf01>hello o/
15:15-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f743453.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:16<@Alberth>moin moin
15:21<frosch123>hai
15:28<V453000>Hyyyyyy
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15:36<frosch123>we should remove the original acceleration models
15:37<frosch123>no sane person uses it
15:37<frosch123>so it takes weeks until someone notices that it crashes because of some new feature :p
15:37<Wolf01>I do, but I can't be considered sane... or a person
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15:38<Wolf01>Usually I do it on vanilla games, without any grf
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15:41<frosch123>sanity is a relative thing
15:42<Samu>nerf acceleration going downslope
15:42<Samu>then remove original
15:43<Samu>:)
15:43-!-Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:44<frosch123>btw. did anyone figure out in the past 7 years, why the console classes start with an I?
15:44<Wolf01>I'm improving my abilities: just found the title of a (famous) book remembering only the age and some doubts about the author... and it took only 25 minutes, instead of 3 months like the previous movie title :D
15:45<TrueBrain>frosch123: hahahaha
15:45<TrueBrain>lolz
15:45<TrueBrain>the sad part is, I know why .. and I took it as a given :D
15:45<Samu>empty trains move slower downlope than full trains
15:46<TrueBrain>only looking back I understand it makes no sense at all :D
15:46<frosch123>TrueBrain: now you made me curious :)
15:46<TrueBrain>and now it becomes an art not telling :D
15:47<TrueBrain>well, you can say a lot, but it is consistent :)
15:47<@Alberth>it's a test to see how well you can keep a secret :p
15:48<TrueBrain>I wonder if it is written down anywhere ..
15:48<TrueBrain>ha, it is :D
15:49<TrueBrain>both in the code, on the wiki, and in the readme :D
15:50<TrueBrain>frosch123: the console was written by sign_de
15:50<TrueBrain>if I am not mistaken, he also wrote the "blackbook" wiki pages
15:50<TrueBrain>either way, no clue why exactly anymore, but there was a reason to call it Ingame Console
15:50<frosch123>ah, so "I" means "implementation"
15:50<TrueBrain>which became IConsole
15:50<TrueBrain>looking back, it makes no sense at all
15:50<frosch123>contrary to "D" for "documentation"
15:50<TrueBrain>but .. then it was very logic :)
15:51<TrueBrain>there are a few references left to "Ingame"
15:51<TrueBrain>in openttd.cpp, where the IConsole is initialized
15:51<TrueBrain>and in the Blackbook wiki pages :)
15:51<frosch123>i also call it in-game console
15:51<frosch123>but i would not have expected that to be abbreviated into a single letter
15:52<TrueBrain>so then I wonder why you didnt figure that out yourself :P :P
15:52<TrueBrain>:D
15:52<TrueBrain>guess otherwise it was too long :D
15:52<@Alberth>Interface didn't exist at the time as concept?
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15:53<TrueBrain>Interface exists for a lot longer than that :D
15:53<TrueBrain>the console btw was the first part that really allowed "scripting"
15:53<@Alberth>hmm, was C of course, wrong language :p
15:53<TrueBrain>cute, looking back :)
15:53<TrueBrain>but so yeah ...
15:53<TrueBrain>Ingame Console :)
15:54<@Alberth>:)
15:55<TrueBrain>hmm .. Bamboo now has "elastic images", for Amazon bla
15:55<TrueBrain>but .. it has one for WIndows, including MSBuild etc
15:55<TrueBrain>pretty nice tbh
15:56-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
15:57<Wolf01>o/
15:59<frosch123>TrueBrain: do you want a test commit?
15:59<TrueBrain>not really .. I just want WT3 to commit :D
16:00<TrueBrain>he is having issues :)
16:00<frosch123>ok, can i commit nevertheless? :p
16:00<TrueBrain>yes, ofc :)
16:00<TrueBrain>I wouldnt want to hold back progress :)
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16:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27190 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2015-03-16 21:01:14 +0100 )
16:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6255] (r27106): Original road vehicle acceleration crashed for vehicles taking over.
16:01<andythenorth>o/
16:01-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:02<TrueBrain>I like that we sync to github now automatically :)
16:02<TrueBrain>that makes me happy :)
16:03<andythenorth>a happy TrueBrain is a good TrueBrain
16:03<Xaroth|Work>apart from me being annoying messages from this TrueBrain person every time that happens
16:03*Xaroth|Work turns off spam
16:03<TrueBrain>it gives you messages?!
16:04<+glx>last sentence doesn't parse for me
16:04<Xaroth|Work>TrueBrain pushed to master at OpenTTD/OpenTTD
16:04<Xaroth|Work>TrueBrain 5b1632f (svn r27190) -Fix [FS#6255] (r27106): Original road vehicle accelerat.
16:04<TrueBrain>haha
16:04<TrueBrain>so I do need to figure out if we had an account, or otherwise create one ...
16:04<TrueBrain>roger that :D
16:04<Xaroth|Work>unless you want people to think you're VERY active with openttd
16:05<+glx>if no account exists I suggest vcs as name
16:05<TrueBrain>Username is already taken
16:05<TrueBrain>hmm .. yes, it is a group
16:05<+glx>svn then
16:05<TrueBrain>cant I set a key for a group ...
16:05<andythenorth>what an earth is all this, and how does it relate to a better map?
16:05<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1144888#p1144888
16:06<andythenorth>I often struggle to understand what game players are playing
16:07<TrueBrain>ha, okay, I just used the wrong key
16:07<TrueBrain>lemme try to fix that
16:08<TrueBrain>there, that should solve the messages Xaroth :)
16:08<Xaroth|Work>\o/
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16:09<TrueBrain>bit hidden where organization keys are stored
16:09<TrueBrain>not via settings on the top right, but via settings of the repos itself
16:09<TrueBrain>yes, those are different places :P
16:10<+glx>lol and I received a mail about the key change on my opendune email (logical after all but seems weird at first look)
16:10-!-FLHerne_ [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:10<TrueBrain>yeah ... I "misplaced" the existing one :D
16:10<TrueBrain>it didnt give an email for removing a key btw :P
16:10-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:10<+glx>my email for github is the opendune one
16:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's just cirdans version of openttd
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
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16:29<UukGoblin>hello :-)
16:29<@Alberth>o/
16:30<UukGoblin>say I have a steel mill station with 4 tracks. I have 5 steel truck trains that pick up steel from it, and 5 iron ore trains that dump iron there. What's the best way to ensure that at least 1 platform is available for unloading ore (in order not to cause a deadlock?)
16:30<UukGoblin>should I go with waypoints before each platform track?
16:31<@Alberth>2 stations, 6 platforms, or 2 way points would work :)
16:31-!-Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:31<UukGoblin>righty :-)
16:31<UukGoblin>thank you
16:31<UukGoblin>a conditional order jump if a given path is blocked would be SO AWESOME
16:32<@Alberth>not sure why you need that many platforms though, unloading needs 2 or 3 at most
16:33<UukGoblin>for loading I guess? and to prevent deadlocks in the past
16:33<UukGoblin>via the "6 platforms" method (when I had fewer trains)
16:33<UukGoblin>(I originally had 3 steel trains)
16:37<andythenorth>2 stations
16:38<andythenorth>don’t contend delivery and collection
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16:38<andythenorth>deadlocks are easy that way
16:38<andythenorth>instead of engineering a solution to manage deadlocks, make deadlocks impossible
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16:38<andythenorth>less work, better results
16:39<UukGoblin>so they should be different stations with different names you're saying?
16:39<UukGoblin>and disjoint?
16:39<andythenorth>disjoint
16:39<UukGoblin>i.e. not created with ctrl
16:39<andythenorth>and ideally separate routes
16:39<UukGoblin>yeah, makes sense, but it's not very space-saving
16:40<andythenorth>there is usually space
16:40<andythenorth>or use escape depots
16:40-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:40<andythenorth>solutions are known
16:40<andythenorth>many here http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Main_Page
16:40<UukGoblin>:-)
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16:41<UukGoblin>ooh, interesting, didn't know that one
16:41<UukGoblin>been looking mostly on wiki.openttd.org
16:41<@Alberth>openttdcoop is where the 'professional builders' are :)
16:41<UukGoblin>thanks, will check there
16:42<andythenorth>you call V a professional? :o
16:42<andythenorth>:P
16:42<UukGoblin>that's basically what I've been looking for :-D
16:42<@Alberth>playing together filling entire maps :)
16:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: in building networks? yep
16:43<@Alberth>UukGoblin: if you like doing that, you can join
16:43<andythenorth>they have prozone server or such?
16:43<UukGoblin>I'm probably too newb at this point
16:43<UukGoblin>but it looks like a great resource, that wiki :-)
16:44<@Alberth>don't get too scared of the insane parts :)
16:44*andythenorth takes a more back-to-basics approach to networks :P
16:44*andythenorth has a big distrust of complex things
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16:53<@Terkhen>good night
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17:21<UukGoblin>would you guys recommend mixing grain+livestock wagons on a single train, or are 2 separate trains better?
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17:24<frosch123>separate is easier, mixed is more fun :)
17:25<UukGoblin>interesting :-) I find mixed easier, as I get less trains on my rails
17:25<UukGoblin>but I may be wrong ;-)
17:25<frosch123>but you cannot adjust the transport capacity independently (easily)
17:26<UukGoblin>yeah
17:26<UukGoblin>I tend to use "full load any cargo" and leave the other wagon or two empty
17:26<UukGoblin>(and I try to balance numbers of wagons according to current farm production)
17:28<Supercheese>Hmm, is there no way to disable the random placement of rocky tiles by OGFX+ Landscape?
17:28<frosch123>it's a ottd feature
17:29<Supercheese>OGFX+ also randomly places them as NewObjects
17:29<frosch123>oh, no idea then
17:29<Supercheese>count_per_map256
17:30<Supercheese>they look really bad on water IMO
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17:48<UukGoblin>I don't understand http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Line_hierarchy nor even http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Priority :-) Why aren't they using one-way path signals like me? :-O
17:48<UukGoblin>I forgot about all non-path-based signals as the path ones are just too awesome
17:48<frosch123>path signals are easier, but they also have less options
17:49<UukGoblin>(although I never really cared about priority)
17:50<UukGoblin>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/2/2f/ML1.PNG why do these mainlines appear to have two-way signals rather than one-way?
17:51<frosch123>they are block signals, not path signals
17:51<UukGoblin>mrhm
17:51<UukGoblin>ok, back to basics then I guess :-)
17:51<frosch123>there is no difference between one-way block signals and one-way path signals as long as there are no junctions though
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18:04<UukGoblin>also, why don't these mainlines have connections between tracks in the same direction?
18:04<UukGoblin>when one train breaks down on a track, trains behind it should have a way to take it over
18:05<Taede>coop tend to play with breakdowns off
18:05<UukGoblin>oh... cheating ;-P
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18:06<Taede>i'd advise you to download a game from the archive, see it all in action
18:07<UukGoblin>good idea :-)
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18:26<UukGoblin>lol, 1.7 has a coal mine with only tunnels underneath it :-)
18:26<UukGoblin>where does it take its coal from? :-)
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18:28<Guest563>UukGoblin: The coop style is mostly about keeping everything (on the mainlines) moving continuously at the same speed and spacing
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18:30<FLHerne>No breakdowns, no crossovers, equalised track lengths, prio (or even fiddlier things) on entry
18:31<UukGoblin>yeah, figured
18:31<UukGoblin>I just find "no breakdowns" a bit... unrealistic
18:31<UukGoblin>especially after travelling to work by London tube
18:32<FLHerne>Basic prios are definitely useful outside of coop, but I've never bothered with the extra-track variant
18:32<FLHerne>OTTD's breakdown mechanics are so broken that the majority of people turn them off :P
18:32<FLHerne>Something like 3/4 if forum polls are reliable (they aren't(
18:35<FLHerne>My main dislike about breakdowns is that they're literally unpreventable, and the way the pathfinder behaves makes it very hard to mitigate them
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18:36<FLHerne>So they discourage interesting, interconnected routes in favour of random detached bits of track/road everywhere, without adding any interesting gameplay themselves
18:37<UukGoblin>hmm, yeah, that was my discovery too
18:37<UukGoblin>that I should just not bother doing interesting networks and just create dedicated tracks for each route
18:37<UukGoblin>so the problem is in the pathfinder
18:37<FLHerne>So turn them off, and build interesting networks instead :P
18:38<UukGoblin>I'll think about it ;-)
18:38<FLHerne>The problem is in trains that break down completely at random, in some cases immediately after being serviced
18:38<UukGoblin>(or maybe I should hack the pathfinder?)
18:39<UukGoblin>you never know, there can always be a "person under the train" even just after servicing
18:39<UukGoblin>or, London's favourite, a "signalling failure"
18:39<FLHerne>You could increase the pf penalties for trains (not sure if there's a separate broken-vehicle penalty), but then you get different problems
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18:55<Eddi|zuHause><UukGoblin> when one train breaks down on a track, trains behind it should have a way to take it over <-- that is a nice theory, but it doesn't work in practice
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>trains just block each other needlessly by changing lanes, when no train is broken down
18:57<UukGoblin>yeah, seen that happen :-(
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>only masochists play with breakdowns...
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>... because there are no useful mitigation techniques
18:58<UukGoblin>maybe that's why no-one fixed the pathfinder ;-)
18:58<UukGoblin>because everyone plays with breakdowns off
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19:06<UukGoblin>so openttd's wiki says that path signals are basically superior (what I had thought), but coop wiki just uses regular signals most of the time :-S
19:07<FLHerne>UukGoblin: Path signals are better *for the things path signals are superior for*
19:07<UukGoblin>I'd need some sort of article to describe when the block signals are superior
19:07<UukGoblin>because the block signal examples shown on openttd's wiki are just better solved with path signals
19:08<FLHerne>If you're building a fairly simple network and just putting trains on it, path signals are easier
19:08<Wolf01>'night
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19:08<FLHerne>Except that on plain blocks, they have exactly the same behaviour while using more CPU time and being ugly :P
19:08<UukGoblin>yeah, for my single player game I'm using only path signals and so far I've been pretty happy with them. However this "priority" idea has me interested
19:09<FLHerne>If you want to do strange logic with your trains, the entry signals are handy
19:09<UukGoblin>my favourite would be to program the logic in something like lua ;-)
19:10<UukGoblin>let me get back to the logic page of coop wiki
19:10<+glx>if programmation happen it will be in squirrel ;)
19:10<FLHerne>I use a lot of basic prios http://wiki.openttd.org/Priority_Merge#Basic_Priority
19:10<UukGoblin>glx, not hear of it, but it looks nice
19:11<UukGoblin>glx, as long as it's not Malbolge I'm happy :)
19:11<FLHerne>The niftier variants are ugly and I'm a pseudo-realist player, so the coop lot can keep them :P
19:11<+glx>(squirrel is already used for AIs and game scripts)
19:12<UukGoblin>FLHerne, ah, thanks for that article, I didn't see it
19:18<UukGoblin>FLHerne, nah, the "Basic Priority" still isn't clear to me :-/ (because I don't understand pre-signals)
19:20<FLHerne>An entry signal clears if any one of the exits to the block it's the entry to is clear
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19:21<FLHerne>An exit signal is like a normal block signal, except for being seen as an exit by entry signals to the block it's the exit to
19:21<UukGoblin>https://wiki.openttd.org/images/5/5f/Basic_priority.png <- in here, is the train going from bottom-left to top-right supposed to have priority?
19:21<FLHerne>A combo signal is an entry signal that's also an exit signal
19:21<FLHerne>Yes
19:22<FLHerne>It's already blocking the vertical train (note red signal there)
19:23<UukGoblin>so what's causing this? I see... block signals on the regular track, then a... exit signal followed by a combo one?
19:23<UukGoblin>(on the main track?)
19:23<UukGoblin>(if I'm reading the thingies right)
19:23<UukGoblin>and then block signals again after the junction
19:23<FLHerne>The side of the exit signal away from camera (facing toward oncoming train) is red
19:23<FLHerne>Because the train is in its block
19:24<FLHerne>And the side of the combo signal away from the camera is red, because its only exit (the aforementioned red one) is red
19:24<FLHerne>And since that's the only exit to the entry signal on the branch, that one is also red
19:25<UukGoblin>right
19:26<UukGoblin>so these two somehow affect the joining train's signal, even though it cannot physically pass through them?
19:26<FLHerne>Essentially, the entry signal on the branch is 'looking back' down the mainline
19:27<FLHerne>A block is just the contiguous bit of track between some signals, it doesn't have to actually make sense
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>it basically is a giant abuse of a weird game mechanic
19:27<UukGoblin>right :-)
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>if you consider disabling breakdowns as cheating, this would definitely pass as cheating as well
19:28<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, so I'm OK to not understand from the wiki articles? ;-)
19:28*FLHerne doodles
19:28<UukGoblin>FLHerne, thanks a lot though, it's starting to make sense now :-)
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19:37<FLHerne>http://i.imgur.com/shsjoUZ.png Doodle
19:37<FLHerne>NB that a block signal facing out of the block *isn't* an 'exit' to an entry signal
19:38<FLHerne>Only an exit signal (or a combo one) is
19:39<UukGoblin>thank you! :-)
19:39<UukGoblin>yes, that picture confirms my suspicions :-)
19:40<FLHerne>So the block propagates through the sides of the signals opposed to the direction of travel
19:40<FLHerne>Gah, 'block' wrong/misleading word there
19:41<FLHerne>Obstruction/presence/signal redness
19:41<UukGoblin>yeah
19:42<UukGoblin>it basically exploits the original "problem" with block signals for its advantage
19:42<FLHerne>Hm, not really
19:42<FLHerne>Well, maybe
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19:43<UukGoblin>https://wiki.openttd.org/File:Difference_block_path_signals.png
19:43<UukGoblin>^ I mean this problem
19:43<UukGoblin>I didn't know what constitutes a block, but now I slowly start getting it
19:44<FLHerne>The problem with block signals is that they reserve (have the same effect as reserving, at least) the entire block, but in this case the 'entire block' is only a single bit of track
19:44<UukGoblin>yeah
19:44<FLHerne>So a path signal would reserve an entire block too
19:44<FLHerne>It's exploiting the ability of presignals to relay information between blocks, and the existence of 2-way signals
19:45<UukGoblin>:-)
19:45<FLHerne>Neither of which is particularly a problem with block signals, althoug newbies are good at creating deadlocks with the latter
19:45<Supercheese>Weird, the Squid Harbour Point utility vessel's purchase sprite does not match its in-game sprite
19:46<Supercheese>in either of its two models, even
19:48<Supercheese>ah, known issue https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6469
19:48<Supercheese>nevermind then
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21:58<Supercheese>Hmm, I can't see your most recent attachments, supermop
21:58<Supercheese>weird
21:58<supermop>im re-uploading cropped ones 1 sec
21:58<Supercheese>ok
22:02<supermop>try now
22:03<supermop>oops missed one
22:03<supermop>ok
22:05<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1144928#p1144928
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23:53<Pikkaphone>huh
---Logclosed Tue Mar 17 00:00:55 2015