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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-17

---Logopened Tue Mar 17 00:00:55 2015
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01:29<supermop>yeah?
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03:26<juzza1>supermop: have you tried those in-game? the tile edges don't look pixel precise, which might lead to visible edges between road pieces
03:26<juzza1>could be something worth considering in the early stages if you want them to look perfect
03:27<supermop>ive not coded anything
03:27<supermop>but i was assuming i would do further masking in PS on the edges
03:27<juzza1>ok
03:27<supermop>that or underlay a groundsprite or something
03:27<supermop>whatever is easiest
03:30<supermop>one way, DNE, and roadworks sprites are all still missing too
03:30<supermop>but i'd prefer to get something that looks bad in game first then refine while discussing with a coder
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 17 05:19:10 2015
---Logopened Tue Mar 17 05:19:16 2015
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06:19<Celestar>good morning
06:19<supermop>yo
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11:54<Xaroth|Work>sometimes C annoys me beyond belief
12:14<UukGoblin>use C++! :-]
12:15<UukGoblin>can I order an aircraft to full load passengers but take only as much mail as there is?
12:16<UukGoblin>Ideally I'd refit it to passengers-only, but that doesn't seem possible :-/
12:18<UukGoblin>on another note, airports don't seem to work too well for beginning-phase moneymaking in FIRS
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12:19<UukGoblin>I built 2 airports in Yeen and in White Harbor (in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" scenario), and got 5 aircraft, and they've not paid themselves out in 5 years
12:19<UukGoblin>and I'm actually in more debt than I was
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: for aircraft, "full load" means passengers
12:20<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, ah, cool, thanks
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>or, "full load any"
12:20<UukGoblin>yeah, "any" I think
12:21<UukGoblin>(although I have a feeling that if there was a lot of mail waiting it'd take the mail and leave with non-full passengers... let's see)
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>no, this is a special rule
12:21<UukGoblin>kk
12:21<@Alberth>moin
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12:22<UukGoblin>yeah these planes definitely won't pay themselves off
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12:26<Xaroth|Work>UukGoblin: works a bit hard if you're trying to cffi into a kernel module
12:26<UukGoblin>oh, you're hacking the kernel :-S
12:26<Xaroth|Work>not really trying to hack into it
12:26<Xaroth|Work>trying to get data from it
12:27<Xaroth|Work>.. into python
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12:27<@Alberth>sell some of the aircraft
12:28<UukGoblin>moin Alberth :-) I restarted, thinking of an alternative strategy
12:28<UukGoblin>with 2 or 3 airplanes it'd take even longer to get any decent money
12:28<UukGoblin>Xaroth|Work, so, what's so annoying about C? :-)
12:29<Xaroth|Work>UukGoblin: ever tried cffi? :P
12:30<Xaroth|Work>trying to get access to libzfs, without having to manually define what libzfs does
12:30<UukGoblin>no, I don't do python ;-)
12:30<Xaroth|Work>so, normally, you'd just #include <libzfs.h>
12:30<Xaroth|Work>with python's cffi.. a bit different
12:30<UukGoblin>hmm
12:30<UukGoblin>yeah, I imagine
12:31<UukGoblin>you've got to effectively interface one with the other manually
12:31<UukGoblin>(I guess)
12:31<Xaroth|Work>well, manually sucks :P
12:31<Xaroth|Work>so i'm trying to automate it
12:31<Xaroth|Work>but I think i got it to work
12:31<UukGoblin>yeah, that sometimes works
12:31<UukGoblin>oh, cool :-)
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12:31<Xaroth|Work>parse header file, remove junk, throw it to cffi, get module
12:31<UukGoblin>(just wait for your first segfault;-)
12:31<Xaroth|Work>... and then figure out why i get stupid undefined symbols
12:32<UukGoblin>:-)
12:32<Xaroth|Work>at this point i'm just blacklisting those functions from being loaded, seems to work.. until I need them
12:33<UukGoblin>undefined symbols when linking?
12:33<Xaroth|Work>libzfs_fru_* are all defined in the headers
12:34<UukGoblin>ah, but you may be missing a shared (or static) object while linking
12:34<Xaroth|Work>but aren't part of libzfs.so
12:34<Xaroth|Work>or any of it's brethren
12:34<Xaroth|Work>now I don't need fru stuff, so it's not a big deal
12:35<Xaroth|Work>but it's one of those things that you want to tripple check that you're not fucking up :P
12:35<UukGoblin>hmm, they're in libzfs_fru.c, should be added to libzfs.la
12:36<UukGoblin>/o\
12:36<Xaroth|Work>strings /lib/libzfs.so.2 | grep libzfs_fru
12:36<Xaroth|Work>libzfs_fru_clear
12:36<Xaroth|Work>(yes, that's the only one)
12:37<UukGoblin>can also try nm /lib/libzfs.so.2
12:37<UukGoblin>but that's... odd
12:37<Xaroth|Work>so yeah
12:37<Xaroth|Work>that took me a good 2 hours I'm never getting back :P
12:37<Xaroth|Work>did manage to optimize some of my code a bit though :P
12:37<UukGoblin>;-)
12:37<UukGoblin>that's not really a problem with the C language, but I can see how that can put you off ;-)
12:38<Xaroth|Work>it doesn't put me off at all
12:38<Xaroth|Work>but the errors you get are incredibly vague at that point
12:38<Xaroth|Work>especially when you're used to the crapton of traceback data you get with python
12:39<UukGoblin>nodnod
12:39<UukGoblin>I remember getting nice stacktraces with some library or something in C++
12:39<UukGoblin>however, not when linking
12:39<UukGoblin>actually, I think the clang compiler may give you nicer compile errors
12:40<UukGoblin>but all this sounds like something wasn't properly linked somewhere...
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13:15<Samu>hi
13:16<Samu>something strange happened with one of my stations rating
13:16<Samu>rating for rubber went all the way down to 15% and yet there were trucks there full loading all the time
13:17<@Alberth>cargodist?
13:17<Samu>yes
13:17<Samu>and now it is raising again
13:17<@Alberth>got a big heap of rubber for other destinations?
13:17<Samu>big heap?
13:18<@Alberth>lots of rubber lying at the station
13:18<Samu>well, not exactly
13:18<Samu>but there's tons of rubber being moved around
13:18<Samu>two rubber plantations are producing 720 tonnes
13:18<Samu>but both stations are saturated
13:18<@Alberth>with cargodist, a loading truck doesn't get cargo for other destinations than where it goes
13:19<Samu>trucks load rubber from a plantation that produces 720/month
13:19<Samu>then transfer it to a train station, which is also close to one other rubber producing 720/month
13:19<Samu>both are saturated
13:20<@Alberth>right, trucks can handle 1440/month?
13:20<@Alberth>sounds quite a lot for trucks
13:21<Samu>there are 37 trucks here, rating is now 67%
13:21<Samu>let me show you savegam
13:22<@Alberth>I need a savegame of the non-working situation :)
13:23<Samu>got one with it decreasing from 57 all the way down to 15%
13:23<Samu>it's my oldest
13:25<@Terkhen>hello
13:25<Samu>hi
13:25<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
13:26<Samu>oh, it's decreasing again
13:26<Samu>this is strange
13:26<@Alberth>so where is the rubber from the plantation going?
13:26<Samu>to a factory via monorail
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: the rubber waiting at the train station will reduce the rating of the truck station where the rubber came from
13:27<Samu> onedrive is not uploading
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>because they don't like their rubber waiting at stations
13:27<Samu>at the train station the rating is also low, this is very strange
13:28<Samu>https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!763&authkey=!AMS1SjqrD-1LLTM&ithint=file%2csav
13:28<Samu>autosave2.sav
13:28<@Alberth>with low rating, you get less rubber, so you can catch up, when you have caught up, you get higher rating, more than you can cope with, rating goes down, ... and so on
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13:31<Samu>woah, i found something else
13:31<Samu>this is so buggy
13:31<Samu>there's 4000 tonnes of rubber at the factory station
13:31<Samu>why wasn't it accepted :(
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13:33<Samu>oh gosh
13:33<Samu>I see what happened
13:34<Samu>this Sanham Factory is very recent
13:34<Samu>oh, Frinness Factory
13:34<Samu>and it pops exactly near the two train stations which made them accept rubber
13:35<Samu>oh, no, just one of them
13:35<Samu>can you look at the savegame?
13:36<Samu>the stations involved are in Stanstoke Common, Sanham, Teedfield and Frinness recently with its Factory
13:37<Samu>it's that new Factory that's ruining this
13:38<@Alberth>looks like it
13:40<Samu>darn Factories :P
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>nobody said this game was going to be easy :p
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13:52<Samu>not a bug, just a surprise factory
13:52<Samu>very funny
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14:58<chillcore>hello all
15:00<@Alberth>o/
15:01<chillcore>hello Alberth o/
15:02<@Alberth>got your pm, looking at the code currently
15:02<chillcore>I hope it was clear enough to understand the prob I am having?
15:02<chillcore>also thanks and no rush ;)
15:03<@Alberth>not quite, but hopefully that will become more clear as I read more code :)
15:03<chillcore>feel free to ask for clarifications as needed
15:04<chillcore>documentation should be quite acurate but commit messages ay be a little off
15:04<chillcore>may*
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15:06<UukGoblin>at a transfer station, my trains transfer 150t of wood. A ship's capacity is 160t. Can I tell ships to go with 150t and don't wait for the extra 10?
15:06<UukGoblin>"Load if available" would mean the train can leave empty, right?
15:06<UukGoblin>and the conditional order jump won't work if the ship's current order (i.e. full load) is pending
15:06<Wolf01>o/
15:07<chillcore>Alberth: while testing you may want to kinda ignore the 'new game' behaviour of the guis ... I intend to revert that part to normal as much as possible, it just does not make sence there as it does in scenario editor
15:08<chillcore>hey wolf01
15:08<@Alberth>hi hi
15:08<@Alberth>UukGoblin: you can't tell that
15:09<UukGoblin>Alberth, :-(
15:09<@Alberth>maybe 'load if available', with a conditional order back to the dock, but it's ugly
15:09<UukGoblin>yeah :-/
15:10<@Alberth>you can have 2 trains of 80t perhaps?
15:11<@Alberth>or just don't care :p
15:11<UukGoblin>Alberth, not quite, capacity is 30t per wagon
15:11<@Alberth>when the ship leaves and the train arrives, you'll have stuff waiting at the dock anyway
15:12<UukGoblin>yeah, but I'll get a smaller reward because it'll be waiting there for long
15:12<chillcore>use 3 times 60 then, which will boost staion ratings a bit at the same time
15:12<@Alberth>ooooh, a zillion dollar minus 1 or so :)
15:12<UukGoblin>btw, will "running" ships incur more maintenance cost than ships at the docks? If not then your "ugly" solution is actually good enough
15:13<@Alberth>depends on your ship set
15:13<UukGoblin>it's an early stage of the game... I can't actually afford 3 trains yet ;-)
15:13<@Alberth>default doesn't make a difference
15:13<UukGoblin>thanks
15:14<@Alberth>chillcore: 3*60 is 180 rather than 160 :p
15:14<UukGoblin>speaking of that, where are ship settings? In vehicles there's only "trains" subgroup, and there's not much about ships elsewhere that I can find (other than vehicles)
15:14<@Alberth>actually don't know any ship set which does make a difference, but I'd consider that broken behaviour anyway :p
15:15<UukGoblin>:-)
15:15<@Alberth>you can't set much with ships other than the path finder and rotation of 90 degrees or so
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15:19<chillcore>yes alberth ... but after a few trains there will be a little bit of reserve waiting at the dock to let the next ship have a full load after just two trains arrive ;) anyhoo
15:20<UukGoblin>chillcore, actually, you're right... I'll just skip the order manually for the first time and then it should have plenty spare
15:20-!-roidal [~roland@cm140-210.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1]
15:20<chillcore>you do not want to much spare as the goods will losesome value if waiting for too long
15:21<@Alberth>euhm, they do?
15:21<@Alberth>I thought they started counting after loading
15:21<chillcore>usually I just want trains to move and do not care much for profit
15:23<chillcore>I am pretty sure goods start losing value as soon as you pick them up and the loss continues during trransfer untill delivery
15:23<chillcore>I could be wrong
15:24<chillcore>but yeah not before first pickup they do not ... they just dissapear after two years IIRC
15:25<UukGoblin>ASOIF is kinda cool. "First train arrives at Winterfell Woods!"
15:29<chillcore>Also ... the Atari is selling Locomotion on steam now ... hmm
15:31<TrueBrain>that means they might double their sales figures
15:31<TrueBrain>up to a whopping 2!
15:31<TrueBrain>*Trolls happily*
15:32<chillcore>I am just curious what would happen if Chris Sawyer would put his new Transport Tycoon on it too ...
15:32<TrueBrain>damn, never seen screenshots of Locomotion
15:33<TrueBrain>but it looks a LOT like TT
15:33<TrueBrain>including newspaper style etc :P
15:33<chillcore>*Trolls along*
15:33<chillcore>ye
15:33<TrueBrain>it is only different gfx :P
15:33<chillcore>eh nope it is the same
15:33<TrueBrain>roads look different
15:34<TrueBrain>the trailer on steam is just ..... lolz
15:34<TrueBrain>looks like a CAM version
15:34<TrueBrain>it is really really bad
15:34<TrueBrain>4:3
15:34<TrueBrain>240p or something
15:34*chillcore has TT on iOS ... has beta tested and is mentioned in credits.
15:35<TrueBrain>my condolunces
15:35<chillcore>*end bragging*
15:35<chillcore>lol
15:35<TrueBrain>*ends trolling*
15:35<TrueBrain>I am sure what I have said above will be used out of context sooner or later, so meh :P
15:35<chillcore>it was fun testing and they were very swift to fix stuffs
15:35<chillcore>for sure it will
15:36<TrueBrain>I just cant see how these games are played on mobile platforms
15:36<TrueBrain>it doesnt add up
15:36<chillcore>it works suprisingly well to be honest
15:36<TrueBrain>I am sure controls etc can be figured out
15:36<TrueBrain>but the game itself ... it is just not meant for mobile platforms
15:36<chillcore>huhu
15:36<TrueBrain>I cant wrap my head around it
15:36<chillcore>maps are not as big as openttd has them
15:36<TrueBrain>same goes for games like Doom etc :P
15:37<chillcore>ye 3D shooters are pretty bad to play on them
15:37<chillcore>minecraft is soso
15:37<TrueBrain>also a game I wouldnt play on mobile devices
15:37<TrueBrain>it is not meant for htat .. it doesnt make sense ...
15:37<TrueBrain>then again, I would not drive a smart either ..
15:38<TrueBrain>it doesnt make sense :D
15:38<chillcore>It was cheap and I had some credits left
15:38<chillcore>also bought trainz but that is not so handy to control
15:38<chillcore>all the rest is 'free' stuffs
15:38-!-Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.179.109] has joined #openttd
15:39<chillcore>albeit full versions via appsgonefree
15:39<TrueBrain>hehe
15:39<chillcore>I refuse to invest in microtransaction garbage
15:39<chillcore>or register for that matter
15:39<TrueBrain>I like the free-to-play games, with MT
15:39<TrueBrain>gives me options :D
15:39<TrueBrain>as long as it is not P2W
15:40-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
15:40<andythenorth>o/
15:40<chillcore>true there are many of those
15:40<chillcore>\o
15:42<chillcore>I have that openttd version too ... still stuck at 1.0.0 and the wrong palette is used
15:42*andythenorth is having a not-understanding day
15:42<TrueBrain>CATS
15:42<andythenorth>wrt refits and also orders
15:42<chillcore>meow
15:43<TrueBrain>time to watch some tv
15:43<TrueBrain>o/
15:44<chillcore>see ya
15:44<chillcore>treubrain before you go ... is there a way to change the pull location of existing hg checkouts without mesing up the current checkout?
15:45<chillcore>TrueBrain ^^^ darned spelling
15:46<TrueBrain>ask Alberth
15:46<TrueBrain>I dont do hg
15:46<TrueBrain>git ftw!
15:47<chillcore>git has it advantages yes
15:47<chillcore>anyhoo enjoy your tele
15:47<TrueBrain>will do!
15:47<@Alberth>mostly our sysadmin knows what to do there :)
15:48<chillcore>moehahahaha
15:48<chillcore>I can test later, I do not have that many checkouts yet on this HDD
15:49<@Alberth>I also just discovered that hg now uses 'trunk' branch for svn revisions
15:49<chillcore>'only' 11
15:49<chillcore>yes it does
15:49<chillcore>22028 has default still
15:49<@Alberth>yeah, tb will fix that in a few days
15:50<chillcore>it is fixed I believe ... it syncs itself if I understood correctly
15:50<@Alberth>it was caused by the updates he did
15:50<Xaroth|Work>o/
15:50<chillcore>on purpose yes?
15:50<@Alberth>hihi Xaroth|Work
15:50<Wolf01>frosch123: http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/ao0gn6n_460s.jpg
15:50<@Alberth>the updates were on purpose yes :p
15:50<@Alberth>the change wasn't :)
15:50<Xaroth|Work>sup Alberth
15:51<chillcore>ah I thought that change too
15:51<@Alberth>although it seems to reflect the current ideas of the hg devs
15:51<frosch123>Wolf01: interesting :)
15:51<@Alberth>the simplest work around is to do a hg up trunk
15:52<Wolf01>I always had the suspect :P
15:52<@Alberth>but expect that it will change again, so better not do that on too many repos
15:53<chillcore>thanks for the hint alberth ... for the moment the old repos location still works so there is no real rush
15:54<chillcore>I just know it can be changed because of that almost booboo I made once
15:55<chillcore>just not sure how the code will react when pulling from a different location all of a sudden, although the base is the same
15:56<chillcore>workbench tends to crash sometimes ...
15:57<chillcore>if only I knew how to reproduce it reliably I could report
15:57<Xaroth|Work>UukGoblin: for me it's more the confusion on how something that is defined in the headers, can actually not show up in the module
15:58<Xaroth|Work>that, to me, makes little sense.. though I'm not -that- well versed in C
16:00-!-Celestar [~Celestar@fire3.tngtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:00<UukGoblin>Xaroth|Work, hmm. Headers usually only "declare" functions, they don't define them
16:01<UukGoblin>a function definition gets compiled into a shared (or static) object, and then all the functions from various objects are linked together
16:01<UukGoblin>in C you usually don't include the function's body, only the header that declares it - it's the linker that later joins everything up
16:01<Xaroth|Work>https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/blob/master/lib/libzfs/libzfs_fru.c#L309 << but it's actually implemented
16:01<Xaroth|Work>might be the visibility of it
16:02<UukGoblin>yeah, I saw, not sure what's going on in the zfs case
16:02<UukGoblin>it doesn't end up in the .so, which means it didn't get linked properly
16:03<UukGoblin>Xaroth|Work, was HAVE_LIBTOPO defined during libzfs's compile time?
16:03<Xaroth|Work>no idea, using ubuntu's pre-built binaries
16:03<Xaroth|Work>but that might be it
16:04<UukGoblin>Xaroth|Work, actually, it probably wasn't. Because the only function that you see in the .so, "libzfs_fru_clear", is the one defined when HAVE_LIBTOPO is undefed
16:04<UukGoblin>so, yeah, that's probably it :-)
16:04<Xaroth|Work>that explains a lot
16:05<Xaroth|Work>you just cleared up a puzzle that kept me going for hours, thanks :D
16:05<UukGoblin>yw :-) thanks for all the help with openttd too, guys :-)
16:05<Xaroth|Work>now to find a sane way to actually implement that on the python side
16:06<UukGoblin>Xaroth|Work, hmm. You could dlopen() the .so and see what functions are defined inside of it (with dlsym())
16:06<UukGoblin>if you don't see all the libzfs_fru_*, then raise an exception in python code trying to access them
16:06<Xaroth|Work>not sure if python-cffi has functionality for that, but will have a look
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16:07<UukGoblin>dlopen() and dlsym() are conformant to POSIX.1-2001
16:07<UukGoblin>(at least according to the manpage I'm reading)
16:08<UukGoblin>but yeah, finding which libzfs.so is being used might be tricky
16:09<Xaroth|Work>yeah, but python-cffi has to have the implementation for it, if it doesn't have any easy wrapper around dlsym there's not much use in making my own
16:09<Xaroth|Work>seeing the cost of trying to figure all that out outweigh the loss of a handfull not-so-useful functions
16:09<@Alberth>chillcore: what's these "backup" parameters about?
16:09<Xaroth|Work>worst-case I can dlopen it and try to access them, I -think- python-cffi tries to do a dlsym at that point
16:09<UukGoblin>oh, I assumed it let you write some C code
16:10<Xaroth|Work>python-cffi is all about creating a thin wrapper around C libraries so youc an use them from python
16:10<@Alberth>chillcore: it seems weird to save them in settings
16:10<Xaroth|Work>i.e. I can hook into libzfs so I can get zfs' information out of it, from within python
16:10<UukGoblin>yeah, but with, say perl XS, you actually wrote some funky C code to help the framework glue things up together
16:11<UukGoblin>oh, then that's probably the way to go :-)
16:11<Xaroth|Work>I probably could, but at that point it's cost/benefit
16:11<UukGoblin>if you can catch the "undefined symbol" exception then yeah, profit
16:12<chillcore>Alberth: ye I understandwhat you mean. I was thinking of having them in a seperate file later on as custom presets kinda like newgrf presets?
16:12<@Alberth>those are in openttd.cfg afaik
16:12-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
16:13<Xaroth|Work>there's a thousand things still to implement, I'm long glad I can now work around having to package different versions' header info for 3 different platforms and 5 different versions of libzfs :P
16:13<Xaroth|Work>when most of the important stuff didn't really change
16:13<@Alberth>chillcore: well, I sort of worked through the first 3 patches, not sure if there is any point in continuing now
16:14<@Alberth>as the changes will ripple through the entire queue
16:14<chillcore>Alberth: maybe in a seperate file ... if I figure out how to do that, and also would be better done before being commited to trunk to avoid having to use afterload.cpp
16:14<chillcore>yes thenewgrf configs are in the normal config file
16:14<@Alberth>don't know, depends on their purpose
16:15<chillcore>also, true the changes will ripple throughout the rest of the patches but functionality should not change much?
16:15<@Alberth>maybe the name "_backup" is just wrong
16:15<chillcore>for now I have a live custom setting and presets are loaded into that
16:16<@Alberth>just looked at the code structure
16:16<chillcore>yes the backup code is to become write to file ... if I manage to do that
16:16<chillcore>I just wanted to get things working for now ...
16:16<@Alberth>well, some presets would be fine to have, I can imagine to add them to openttd.cfg
16:17<@Alberth>but don't know
16:18<chillcore>we have hotkeys in a seperate file ... and I would not mind seeing the newgrf presets go in their own file too.
16:18<chillcore>or would that become too many config files?
16:18<chillcore>I am not sure on that
16:18<chillcore>it feels like the right thing to do
16:20-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
16:20*chillcore mentions writing to files and string manipulation is another one of those things I skipped the exercises on mostly
16:20<chillcore>after this patch I am going to hit my books a bit harder ...
16:21<@Alberth>use a hammer? :p
16:21<chillcore>hehe
16:21<@Alberth>sent you PMs
16:22<chillcore>It is just that I have so much fun with plenty of things and then I get frustrated with the 'simple' stuffs and say balls to it
16:22<chillcore>the luxury of not being a proffesional programmer :P
16:22<chillcore>checking PMs ...
16:23<@Alberth>I mostly pointed in the direction where I think is the better solution, but don't know the details either
16:23<@Alberth>if you hit a problem or a wall, just ask, and we'll see if we can convince the code to co-operate :)
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16:24<@Alberth>ha ha, yeah, unfortunately, I cannot just start writing code without bothering about things that will happen tomorrow in the next step
16:24<chillcore>will do, thanks for your help so far ... also sssst but I do not know all the details neither
16:25<chillcore>eg. that desertline needing to be seperated from snowline is a prob I just discovered
16:25<@Alberth>so I always set it up properly immediately, which is a lot of work at times
16:25<chillcore>last week or so
16:25<@Alberth>hmm, sounds useful, as desert and snow don't go well together :)
16:26<@Alberth>although.... it can get quite cold at night in the desert :p
16:26<chillcore>ye that is why I have the patches on top of 200 to be integrated afterwards, to get it right the first time ... and then I still end up rewriting all of it 4 times
16:27<@Alberth>that's only 1 tome more than I do :)
16:27<@Alberth>*time
16:27-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit []
16:27<chillcore>I have to say that all sand dunes look pretty nice, unfortunatly no tropical forest means broken chains too
16:27-!-JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
16:28<chillcore>but the same can hapen with snowline ... I stil am convinced that the current trunk implemantation is no good
16:28<@Alberth>I am not surprised, there is a lot broken in trunk :p
16:28<chillcore>it being bases on the max height setting instead of generated height at mapgen
16:29<chillcore>ye ... I hope I can fix most of it befre 1.5 but it is not looking very good at this point in time
16:29<@Alberth>hmm, yeah, smallmap colours are weird too
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: so what if you terraform the topmost tile? or what if you start with a flat map in scenario editor?
16:30<chillcore>same as now ... don't change it
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>but you need a way to specify it beforehand
16:30<@Alberth>chillcore: I won't do worldgen stuff before 1.5
16:30<chillcore>eg. if top tile is 100 snowline gets 25 eddi
16:30<chillcore>or rather the desertline
16:31<chillcore>andthen if you want to o lower then so ne it
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: there's variable snowline in NewGRFs
16:31<chillcore>then so be it*
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>it needs a point where 0% and 100% snow are
16:31<chillcore>yes I know we can leave that as is
16:31<chillcore>true
16:31<chillcore>as it is now
16:31<chillcore>was rather
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>so what is the problem?
16:32<chillcore>if I now set snowline at 50 ad the generate deset at 25 there is no trpical forest
16:32<chillcore>at all
16:32<chillcore>damn typing ... sorry
16:32<chillcore>typing a bit slower
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>so your problem is not how it works, but that you can enter nonsensical settings?
16:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27191 branches/1.5/ (2015-03-17 21:33:12 +0100 )
16:33<@DorpsGek>[1.5] -Branch: Let's get serious.
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: now you're free to go :p
16:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27192 /trunk (15 files in 12 dirs) (2015-03-17 21:33:44 +0100 )
16:33<@DorpsGek>-Change: heading for 1.6 now
16:33<chillcore>a non sensical setting that breaks chains ... yes
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: you can't really prevent that.
16:34<chillcore>I am going to read these PMs real quick ... brb
16:34<chillcore>true eddi
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>like full FIRS on a 64x64 map will also break chains
16:34<frosch123>Alberth: sorry to spoil your excuses :p
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>because you just can't cram that many industries into it
16:34<@Alberth>:D
16:35<andythenorth>bloody FIRS
16:35<@Alberth>hi hi andy
16:36<chillcore>hehe frosch :P
16:36<andythenorth>I am really perplexed by this http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1144962#p1144962
16:36<andythenorth>usually Wally makes complete sense, but I can’t understand that post at all
16:37<andythenorth>and I had 7 hours sleep too
16:37-!-JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
16:37<andythenorth>do I miss something? refit has nothing to do with non-stop or not
16:37<andythenorth>AIUI
16:38<@Alberth>would need change of the newgrf specs anyway
16:39<frosch123>hmm, i forgot some version number somewhere
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16:44<andythenorth>hey it’s HEQS! http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=523332&nseq=9
16:44<chillcore>Alberth: thank you for commenting thse patches
16:44<andythenorth>remember HEQS?
16:44<@Alberth>yw, I hope I didn't cause too much chaos :)
16:44<chillcore>Alberth: the alignment of colons is right after a few patches ... it makes the chhanges in late rpatches smaller
16:45<chillcore>no not at all ;)
16:45<@Alberth>we don't align colons I think
16:45<chillcore>I can not add the custom settings to the existing presets array without making it modifiable
16:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27193 trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp (2015-03-17 21:45:57 +0100 )
16:46<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r27192): Incomplete copy/paste.
16:46<@Alberth>I suggested to add the default custom values
16:47<chillcore>ahlike that ... ye that makes sense
16:47<@Alberth>or at least I thought I did :)
16:47<chillcore>maybe a struct would work better then an array indeed for the custom ones
16:49<chillcore>re dafaults: ye I read too fast :P
16:51<chillcore>as for trailing whitespace ... ye I need to check the patch for those but I believe there is a script mentioned on the coding style wiki page
16:51<@Alberth>I configured my editor to show them
16:52<@Alberth>as well as displaying TAB and spaces differently
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16:53<chillcore>the re-use of 'tgen_smoothness' that setting existed already and is saved as difficulty setting in older savegames ... changing that would require messing with afterload?
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16:54<@Alberth>you just extended the value range by 1, I think adding a new case for the new range is ok
16:54<@Alberth>don't have much experience there though
16:55<chillcore>the rest is obvious makes sense and gives me some stuff to do ... yay and thanks.
16:55<@Alberth>old savegames don't have the new value, and the old values keep the same meaning
16:56<@Alberth>no need to change values in afterload (it would be x = x; :) )
16:56-!-tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit []
16:57<chillcore>I see ...
16:58<@Alberth>you can write the code, but the compiler will probably optimize it away :)
16:58<Samu>i just found an exploit with transfers :(
16:59<chillcore>most likely yes
17:00<Samu>hard to describe it, maybe I'll make a video
17:00-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6C84F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
17:01<Samu>it happens when a truck is transfering cargo to a station
17:01<chillcore>Alberth: most of your comments apply to the rest of the patches too so indeed little point in going through all of them right now
17:01<Samu>it transfers 5 cargo units at a time
17:01<@Alberth>it felt that way
17:01<Samu>between these 5/10/15/etc... tell it to go to depot
17:02<Samu>for each time it drops 5 cargo, it gets a high transfer value
17:02<Samu>i got a truck with £20k right now, doing that
17:03<@Alberth>ok, but it's all virtual money right?
17:03<Samu>i am unsure of that
17:03<@Alberth>so when you deliver the cargo, do you get a large negative sum?
17:04<Samu>that would be the train
17:04<Samu>i have to check this better
17:04<chillcore>Alberth: maybe if you have some free time you can playtest some and see if you find stuffs that could be improved gui / usability wise, I lack some feedback in that department, except for my own vision of where I want to end up that is
17:05<@Alberth>still sounds like a bug, but if you don't get more real money than you would normally, it's not really exploitable
17:05<chillcore>Alberth: by that I mean ... for the rest of the patches you'd be repeating yourself mostly as I have my style
17:05-!-efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:05<chillcore>anyhoo thanks a bunch for your time
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17:06<+michi_cc>Samu: If, with transfer value, you mean the sum in the vehicle details window, then it is indeed purely virtual.
17:06<Samu>profit for this truck last year was £11,544
17:06-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6D5A8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<Samu>for the other truck which didn't use this exploit, it was...
17:06<Samu>£1,202
17:07<Samu>train profit, I am unsure
17:07<Samu>must test it
17:07-!-Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.179.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08<Samu>trying a new game in single player to check this
17:09<@Alberth>chillcore: I am not really sure what I would like to have wrt gui usage
17:11<+michi_cc>Samu: Even more easy: is the money shown on the map yellow or green? If it is yellow, you haven't actually made money yet.
17:11<chillcore>Alberth: that makes two of us :P ... the gui is mostly to avoid having to recompile between making changes to the values
17:11<Samu>it's yellow, but the truck had a last yeart of £11k
17:11<Samu>makes me wonder
17:12<chillcore>and it may be usefulll for peeps wanting to play araund that can/will not compile
17:12<@Alberth>chillcore: in your slider test thingie, int32 x = (tgen_smoothness_scale_slider * (r.right - r.left) / 429467295); looks wrong, dividing by UINT32_MAX will make x quite close to 0,which is what your slider does iirc
17:12<@Alberth>(oh, and yeah, use UINT{16,32}_MAX instead of random large numbers :)
17:12<+michi_cc>About the wrong thing though. All figures in the vehicle window are purely accounting and have no direct relation to the finance report.
17:12<chillcore>for trunk just patch 10 with some values 'could' do
17:13<chillcore>hmm except for a second array for smaller maps maybe
17:13<chillcore>although I could just reduce the first two params (not scale) to 1 codewise too
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17:14<chillcore>Alberth: Ye magic numbers need to be removed still and replaced with their min max counterparts from genworld.h
17:15<@Alberth>:)
17:15<chillcore>for testing having numbers there was/is easier
17:15<chillcore>less recompilation of files ;)
17:15<@Alberth>fair enough :)
17:16<chillcore>I still have that int32 overflowing too ... while it should not due to clamping
17:16<chillcore>it never ends ... hahahaha
17:17<@Alberth>makes sense, 42... doesn't fit in int32
17:17<@Alberth>maybe the slider value is too big?
17:18<@Alberth>ie tgen_smoothness_scale_slider
17:18<supermop>hi
17:18<@Alberth>hi supermop
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17:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: yep, tram looks HEQs-ish
17:19<@Alberth>I may even have a previous picture of it :p
17:20<Samu>testing in single player, train had a Cost when delivering to factory
17:20<chillcore>Alberth: possisbly yes ... I left the adjustments too int32 as a seperate pacth ... perhaps uint16 is good enough but being able to put negative values did a lot of good; needs moar testing
17:20<Samu>truck gets a high profit though
17:20<Samu>train gets a negative profit
17:20<@Alberth>ok, not exploitable thus
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17:21<@Alberth>as the sum of both stays the same
17:21<@Alberth>it's just how the sum is split between the truck and the train
17:21<Samu>train income says £799
17:21<chillcore>if you do not like that samu change the transfer payout percentage to be higher
17:21<Samu>but his profit is -£3,293
17:22<@Alberth>depends on running costs and so on
17:22<Samu>hmm
17:23<@Alberth>not easy to track back to profit for the cargo
17:23*andythenorth -> bed
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17:23<@Alberth>night andy
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17:30<chillcore>fuu noisy neigbours ... sleeping all flipping day and renovating after dark ...
17:30<UukGoblin>goddammit. I've built 2 separate stations, one for farmsup pickup, the other for engsup pickup, both from the same machine shop. Now a train got an "implicit" order when it left a depot and is picking up farmsup from the engsup station...
17:31<chillcore>I'll have my revene after saving some moneyz ... grrrrr
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: over here, you can call the police on people making noises after 22:00
17:31<UukGoblin>how will the engsup station now know not to get farmsup from the shop? :-/
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: make the train orders "non-stop"
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: then the station will forget about the wrong cargo after about 2 years
17:32<UukGoblin>2 years!
17:32<UukGoblin>;-)
17:32<UukGoblin>ok I guess that's good enough
17:32<UukGoblin>thanks :-)
17:33<chillcore>eddi: ye here too ... but ... they just moved in one the one side so ... if it continues for longer then a week or two then I will have a talksie with them
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't make it non-stop, then the next train going to that depot will try to load there again, screwing it up over and over
17:33<chillcore>its not like they are drilling or so ... more silent nailing stuffs to the walls or something
17:36<chillcore>supporting a bit now gives me the chance to be noisy too form time to time :P
17:38<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, thanks. Yeah but this time the implicit order only came about because I reversed the first train and made it ignore signals
17:38<UukGoblin>(turned out the depot wasn't placed too well)
17:38<UukGoblin>so should be good now :-)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: implicit orders just record where the train went. they don't steer the train
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: using "non-stop" will prevent implicit orders from showing up
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>regardless where the train goes
17:39<supermop>i don't understand why anyone ever uses stopping orders
17:39<Samu>woah, train delivered a cost of 31k
17:39<Samu>lol
17:39<supermop>in what case would you not want non-stop
17:40<chillcore>single line with 6 stations ... make it go to first and last and be done with it ;)
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: well, all the money that you "cheated" for the truck, the train loses 1:1
17:41<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, yup, makes sense
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: this unload-depot-unload trick used to work on deliveries, too, but it was fixed years ago.
17:41<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, I'm just saying, the train shouldn't go through the wrong station at all in this case (it only went there accidentally because I faffed about)
17:42<chillcore>supermop: that is provided the train has nowhere else too go but via the middle 4 stations
17:42<UukGoblin>I was just worried the station would start picking up the wrong cargo, but it's good to know it'll go away after 2 years
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: just because things *shouldn't* happen, doesn't mean they never do happen :p
17:42<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, basically if I add a non-stop order now, it will mean the train will be going via the wrong spot ;-)
17:42<supermop>but then you can't expand the line in the future
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: why?
17:43<Samu>income was still better with the exploit, £3,929 vs £3,627 normal transfer
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: that can be normal fluctuations
17:44<Samu>normal transfer is faster
17:44<Samu>hmm
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: probably completely unrelated
17:44<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, because it only got that implicit order accidentally (due to me reversing and ignoring signals manually)
17:44<chillcore>supermop: yes and no ... depends how you build your networks really ... I build so vehicles can go everywhere from evrywhere so I do not use 'em much
17:45<Samu>normal transfer would pay off in the long run, unless I have uber gosu micro
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: like i said, the implicit order doesn't tell the train to go there
17:46<Samu>then the trick would maybe pay off
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: there are more useful exploits in this game...
17:46<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, yup :-) it's all good now ;-)
17:48<Samu>got to try a long distance transfer
17:49<Samu>see if the trick pays off or not
17:50<chillcore>there is no trick there samu ... some vehicles in the chain get overpayed (or not enough) and then the last vehicle pays the bill or makes huge profits it should not get
17:51<chillcore>as the money goes to thesame company it does not matter much
17:51<chillcore>set transfer payout at 100 % if you want ... it will make no diff to your balance in the end
17:52<chillcore>except for minor fluctuations that is ... delays, breakdowns, longer/shorter loading times and so on
17:54<chillcore>I myself find 75% most enjoyable
17:58<Samu>£11,354 - transfer cheating
17:59<chillcore>you should write an anti-cheat patch ... :P
17:59<Samu>£21,464 - normal transfer
18:00<Samu>okay, so it doesn't pay off after all
18:02<Samu>£8,498 - transfer cheating 2nd time
18:03<chillcore>hmm ... dur dur de comprenure, comme d'habitude
18:03<chillcore>:P
18:03<Samu>£15,371 - normal transfer
18:04<Samu>oh well, it was fun to see trucks with £24k though
18:05<TrueBrain>what is this weird thing in front of those numbers?
18:05<TrueBrain>can I eat them?
18:06<Samu>half the income was a bit unexpected though
18:06<Samu>i was hoping at least nearly same income
18:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27194 /branches/1.5 (bin/baseset/opntitle.dat src/misc_gui.cpp) (2015-03-17 23:08:48 +0100 )
18:08<@DorpsGek>[1.5] -Change: New titlegame (Emperor Jake)
18:09<Samu>emperor jake wins?
18:09<Samu>well, okay
18:09<chillcore>I am not sure what part of 'you have to add the whole chain of vehicle incomes together to get meaningfull data' you missed above samu
18:09<frosch123>did i commit the wrong one? :p
18:09<chillcore>woopsie ...
18:10<Samu>this was the income i was seeing at finances window
18:10<chillcore>yes samu from one vehicle in the chain ...
18:10<Samu>truck gets nothing
18:10<chillcore>oh my
18:11<chillcore>train gets too much then maybe yes no perhaps?
18:11<chillcore>if the last vehicle is a train that is
18:11<Samu>i made 2 tests
18:12<Samu>first test was truck transfer to train, short distance
18:12<chillcore>yes transfer
18:12<Samu>2nd test, train goes a very loong distance transfers to another train
18:12<chillcore>that means two vehicles handle the same cargo
18:12<chillcore>cargo payment is devided
18:12<Samu>these last resusts were for the 2nd test, sorry about the confusion
18:13<chillcore>but at transfer the code does not yet know how far the packets still have to travel
18:13<chillcore>you are not confusing me at all :P
18:13<chillcore>I tested cargodist much
18:13<Samu>the income is for the last vehicle
18:13<Wolf01>'night
18:13<chillcore>night wolf
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18:13<Samu>i made sure i was getting only one income per year
18:14<Samu>at finances window i get the real income
18:14<Samu>isn't it?
18:14<chillcore>ye and was the travel distance and delivery speed the same in both tests... in both cases
18:15<chillcore>also did the year not skip in the meantime
18:15<Samu>there were breakdowns
18:15<Samu>that was a variable
18:15*chillcore mumbles something about maintenance costs at new year
18:16<Samu>i looked at train income, not total expenses
18:16<chillcore>ye did you look at the dates too?
18:17<Samu>I'm confused
18:17<chillcore>the same trip starting in march and ending in june will not look the same as a trip starting in november and ending in febrauri in the finances gui
18:18<chillcore>befause the taxman comes jan 1
18:18<chillcore>and maintenance personal wants to be payed that date too
18:19<Samu>why would that matter if I'm only looking at income
18:19<Samu>i'm not looking at train running costs
18:19<chillcore>exactly
18:19<chillcore>you should
18:20<Samu>ok, let me test again
18:20<Samu>no breakdowns
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18:31<Samu>£74,584 - no cheating
18:32<chillcore>and added running cost to that?
18:33<Samu>£73,217 - cheating
18:33<Samu>ah now it makes more sense
18:33<UukGoblin>how do I autoreplace a train that doesn't have a depot in its orders?
18:34<UukGoblin>(having a "service if needed" in orders also doesn't cause the train to go there and get upgraded)
18:34<chillcore>send it to depot manually UukGoblin
18:34<Samu>running costs should be equal on both tests
18:34<UukGoblin>chillcore, ouch ;-)
18:35<Samu>-£4,240 - cheating running cost
18:35<chillcore>vehicles follow orders so ...
18:35<UukGoblin>chillcore, yeah but there's a lot of 'em
18:35<chillcore>if evenually it goes because of the 'service if needed' setting it will be replaced then
18:35<UukGoblin>and I'd like to disrupt the services as little as possible
18:36<Samu>£-4,240 - no cheating running cost
18:36<UukGoblin>it won't ever need service as I took the advice and switched breakage off
18:36<Samu>my tests are complete
18:36<chillcore>I always have a depot order even if playing without breakdowns UukGoblin, for that reason
18:36<Supercheese>vehicles should head for autoreplacement automatically
18:37<UukGoblin>chillcore, so your trains always stop at a depot?
18:37<Supercheese>no manual sending to depot needed
18:37<Supercheese>even if they don't normally stop at any depot
18:37<UukGoblin>hmm.
18:37<Supercheese>autoRenew however
18:37<Supercheese>different story
18:37<chillcore>yeah usually at the beginning or end of route I have a depot order
18:37<UukGoblin>it's replacement, I want to upgrade the engine
18:37<Supercheese>yeah it should handle that automagically
18:37<chillcore>or middle if my network has one there already
18:37<Supercheese>just hit replace and wait
18:38<Supercheese>as long as there is a depot somewhere along its route, it will head for it with minimal disruption of schedul
18:38<Supercheese>schedule*
18:38<Supercheese>only problem you might get is if there is no depot anywhere along its route
18:38<UukGoblin>yeah, I wonder if there is ;-)
18:39<UukGoblin>that might actually be the problem. :-)
18:39<Supercheese>if not, just build one and it will find it
18:39-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
18:39<Supercheese>no extra action needed
18:39<UukGoblin>yup, OK, confirmed, it's happening allright
18:39<Supercheese>:)
18:40<chillcore>but I often end up with steam somewhere near the year 3000 too ... just because 'choo choo' :P
18:40<Supercheese>steam über alles
18:40<Samu>hmm so all this means the last year on vehicle information window is a lie
18:40<UukGoblin>:-)
18:40<Samu>last year profit
18:43<chillcore>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHuXpWSNa-8
18:44<chillcore>I can sense it ...
18:44*Supercheese actually plays a game of OTTD
18:46<chillcore>I would not call it a lie samu ... more you not understanding all that needs to be understood
18:48<chillcore>do you have inflation on? do you have a year of recession happening? ... etc etc etc
18:49<Samu>no
18:49<Samu>oh i like bjork
18:51<chillcore>for a decent test you need to make a savegame and test with the same starting dates, same vehicles, make sure that the total trip incuding transfers takes exactly the same time, and more
18:51<Samu>same time for transfers isn't quite possible
18:51<Samu>there was a few days difference
18:52<chillcore>cool me too samu ... I landed you on her own channel, so enjoy
18:53<chillcore>also 4 days diff on a 40 days trip is 10% faster delivery ...
18:54<Supercheese>Aaaaargh
18:54<chillcore>thus higher pay for the same cargo and 10% less running cost too
18:54<Supercheese>accidentally bulldozed a river
18:54<Supercheese>no way to get it back.....
18:54<Supercheese>wellp, other than the scenario editor
18:55<chillcore>scenario editor ye
18:55<Supercheese>there really really should be an in-game way to fix that
18:55<chillcore>samu almost had a patch but he got distracted by something else ...
18:55<Supercheese>"shit, accidentally blew up the river"
18:55<Supercheese>what else can you do but .sav -> .scn, fix, .scn -> .sav
18:56<Supercheese>very annoying process
18:56<Samu>lol
18:56<Samu>the "almost" part
18:56<chillcore>nothing at the moment, build a little piece of nice looking canal?
18:56<Supercheese>canal is not nice looking
18:56<Supercheese>at all
18:57<Supercheese>that's the problem
18:57<Samu>it was a long distance, started at early january, final delivery was in december
18:57<Supercheese>ah well, it's annoying but at least not insurmountable
18:58<Samu>at least 450 tiles away
18:58<chillcore>ye samu almost ... all you had to do was loop over the map at gamestart and store those river tiles so they could be restored automagically (except for when the tile was terraformed)
18:59<chillcore>then you started doing 4 things at once (still no clue what for) and you got lost in details
18:59<chillcore>anyhoo
19:00<chillcore>you are doing the same thing now?
19:01<Samu>i couldn't do it without doing the others too
19:02<chillcore>it could be there are still bugsies but cargodist took a long time to finish and was tested by a huge number of peeps
19:02<Samu>I thought I had to free up the bit first
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19:03<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, right, 2 years have now definitely passed, but the station is still receiving the wrong cargo, even though I've never picked it up since
19:03<UukGoblin>there's 200 crates waiting, they slowly expire, but the station keeps getting more and more (effectively stealing it from the nearby correct station)
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: if you're playing 1.4.4, that feature was not implemented yet
19:03<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, oh. That's the debian latest :-S
19:04<UukGoblin>so yeah, that's what I'm playing
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>how do "debian" and "latest" even fit in the same sentence? :p
19:04<UukGoblin>ugh
19:04<Samu>let me look at my topic, I nearly forgot what were my plans
19:05<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, it's actually the latest stable version too
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:05-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6C84F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:05<UukGoblin>ugh, savefiles are binary.. :-S any chance I could edit them?
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>not really
19:05<UukGoblin>I'll just scrap the station I guess :-(
19:06<Supercheese>save files are compressed by default IIRC
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is the easiest
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>build a new station in its place (with ctrl pressed), and reroute the trains
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>the old station sign will decay in about a month
19:15<Samu>okay, i see why I had to do 4 things at once
19:15<chillcore><Supercheese> "shit, accidentally blew up the river" what else can you do but .sav -> .scn, fix, .scn -> .sav very annoying process <- 'someone' mentioned a few days back it would be nice to be able to load/save normal saves too in scenario editor ... needs patch however and most patchers are quite occupied already as it is. ;)
19:15<Samu>i was planning for the future :o
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19:16<chillcore>yes indeed, instead of just focussing on (re)storing river tiles first and then moving on to the future
19:17<Samu>the future would screw me
19:17<Samu>:p
19:17<chillcore>no your impatience will :P
19:18<Samu>so, where would i put the 1-bit canal think?
19:18<Samu>at m6?
19:19<Samu>thing*
19:19<chillcore>the patches I am able to write now I could not have done in 2008, just because of not enough knowledge on important details I picked up while doing 'simpler' stuffs
19:20<chillcore>yeah you just needed 1 free bit to store a 1 or 0 in ... no shuffling needed
19:21<Samu>then in the future i'd have a big mess for ownership bits splattered around
19:22<Samu>focusing only on canal on river tile
19:22<chillcore>nah you just had 1 more bit to shuffle around, that is all
19:22<chillcore>and ther you go again ... canal and river is two things ... grrrrrr
19:23<Samu>how?
19:23<Samu>canal on river means there's a river when you destroy the canal
19:23<chillcore>a river is not a canal is not sea
19:24<chillcore>you don't need a river to build a canal do you?
19:24<Samu>no, but the game let's me build a canal on a river tile
19:24<chillcore>and?
19:24<Samu>if you destroy the canal, it won't revert to river
19:25<Samu>becomes a bare land tile
19:25<chillcore>yes ... it would be nice if it became river again ... but only if there was a river first
19:25<chillcore>is that really so hard to understand?
19:25<Samu>we're talking about the same thing
19:25<chillcore>no not at all
19:25<Samu>canal on river
19:26<chillcore>ye then yes
19:26<chillcore>still not the same
19:26*ST2 grabs some popcorns
19:27<ST2>xD
19:27<ST2>hi :)
19:27<Samu>I don't get it
19:27<chillcore>if there was no river to start with it should become river?
19:27<Samu>hey
19:27<chillcore>I know samu
19:27*chillcore has cookies to munch on
19:27<Samu>if there was no river, then canal on river would turn = false
19:27<Samu>something like that
19:27<Samu>destroying it would check that condition
19:28<Samu>becomes bare land
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19:29<chillcore>ye and for that you store only river tiles and don't give a damn about canals ... at first
19:29<chillcore>anyhoo
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19:30<Samu>okay, i name it RebuildRiver
19:31<Samu>is that just because of the name?
19:31<chillcore>o/ ST2
19:31-!-JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit []
19:32<chillcore>samu ... do something simpler first ;)
19:32<Samu>I'm not doing anything now
19:33<Samu>there's nothing else that can be built on rivers that don't currently revert correctly into a river
19:33<Samu>I don't understand what you mean
19:34<Samu>dock on river, destroy dock, river is restored
19:34<Samu>ship depot on river, destroy ship depot, river is restored
19:34<chillcore>to put it simple ... as long you do not store rivertiles there is nothing to restore neither
19:35<chillcore>read: nothing to check against
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19:36<chillcore>also you need to grasp the basics of programming ... we can not teach you the concept of asserts and stuffs
19:36<Samu>canal on river, canal is destroyed, river is restored?
19:37<chillcore>river is destroyed code does not know there was a river ... boom
19:38-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
19:39<Samu>destroying a river, becomes bare land
19:39<Samu>i just don't get what you're saying
19:39<chillcore>it is like people trying to explain to me how pointers or string manipulation work ... I do not get the basics so there is little use of them trying to explain it to me
19:40<chillcore>I need to get my hands dirty with simple exercises and only then their feedback becomes usefull to me
19:40<chillcore>more importantly while they help me their time is not wasted
19:41<chillcore>AFTER I get the basics not before will their time not be wasted
19:42<chillcore>ofcourse they can write code for me and sure enough it will work ... but what will I have learned?
19:42<Samu>canal and river are different, they build on top of the other
19:42<chillcore>how to ask other peeps to do stuffs for me and nothing else?
19:42<Samu>or actually, just the canal
19:43<Samu>okay, I give up, I don't get what you're trying to tell me
19:43<Samu>canals aren't like the other structures
19:43<chillcore>they are very different ... rivers are generated on mapgen, canals are buildable wherever and whenever
19:43<Samu>canal is a waterclass
19:44<Samu>they're not in the same group as a dock
19:44<Samu>meh, I stop
19:46<chillcore>ye better do something else first samu, there is a reason I do not touch bits or as little as possible
19:47<Samu>I need 1 bit for this canal on river thing, that's all I know
19:47<Samu>if this is wrong
19:48<Samu>then .... I don't know why
19:49<chillcore>yes 1 bit that is set to 1 or 0 at gamestart, then later whena canl is removed on a tile check the value
19:49<chillcore>o is bare land, 1 is restore river
19:50<chillcore>that is it it stops there
19:50<chillcore>for this restore river tile patch
19:51<chillcore>you make it way too complicated with I don't know what kind of details that do not matter for this
19:52<chillcore>^^^ this is what went wrong when you tried ... not needed details and you got frustrated ...
19:53<chillcore>not ponting fingers or anything ... I get frustrated too sometimes but I move on and go back later to try again
19:54<Samu>I'm gonna try that again tomorrow, but without the "details"
19:55<chillcore>that is a good idea ... there is code in afterload.cpp that loops over the map that you can re-use to give you a head start ;)
19:56<Samu>those "details" you mention were the owners.
19:56<chillcore>and for god sake don't try to work around asserts, they are there for a reason, if you hit one you are doing it wrong
19:56<Samu>ok, only 1 owner then
19:57<Samu>or in other words, I am not touching that part
19:57<Samu>in the future, maybe... I'll think on finding a way to store 2 owners, this was the "details"
19:58<Samu>the reason I was trying to shrink them from 5 to 4 bits
19:58<chillcore>don't worry about them yet ... store the bit first and worry about restoration once you have that part working
19:59<Samu>this means m1 bit 4 can't be used for CanalOnRiver flag :(
19:59<Samu>so be it
19:59<chillcore>that's the spirit :P
20:00<Samu>i will have 3 bits free for the foreseeable future :(
20:00<Samu>oh kay
20:00<Samu>rip
20:00<Samu>2 owners
20:00<chillcore>there are so many unused ones ...
20:01<Samu>industry tiles disagree
20:10<Samu>NoCarGoal is nice
20:10<Samu>i have some suggestions
20:12<Samu>disable the Story Book popup every January
20:12<Samu>it is annoying when I run the game over 100 years
20:12<Samu>as i did
20:14<Samu>and I'd like to know the real transported amount in the goal list
20:14<chillcore>maybe post suggestions in 'that' thread where they will be seen?
20:14<Samu>not just a %
20:14<Samu>ok
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20:16*chillcore postpones complete rewrite till tomorrow
20:16<chillcore>nappy time as I have to get up early
20:16<chillcore>good night all o/
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20:29<Samu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62212&p=1144989#p1144989
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20:31<Samu>question, why is that I am always downloading Feca Goal Games as an upgrade?
20:31<Samu>is this a bug?
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20:44<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few oddities with version detection
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 18 00:00:56 2015