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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-18

---Logopened Wed Mar 18 00:00:56 2015
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00:28<Compu>hello does anyone have any information about the 504 errors from
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00:33<CompuDesktop>is anyone actually here?
00:37*Supercheese is here
00:37<Supercheese>504s eh
00:38<Supercheese>wiki still works, main page seems down
00:38<CompuDesktop>i know
00:38<Supercheese>I can't say why though
00:39<CompuDesktop>i emailed
00:40<Supercheese>just have to wait for the admin(s), I suspect they are yet sleeping
00:41<CompuDesktop>sleep is for the weak
00:44<CompuDesktop>Supercheese: and im stuck on 1.3.3 until they fix the site
00:44<Supercheese>could compile your own version
00:44<Supercheese>svn may still be up
00:45<CompuDesktop>Supercheese: do they have a github
00:45<CompuDesktop>and i dont want to compile
00:46<ST2>this is up:
00:46<ST2>maybe it helps :)
00:47<ST2>note: latest stable is 1.4.4 (just in case :P)
00:49<CompuDesktop>ST2: thanks so much, that worked, and yes i know how stable and beta stuff works
00:49<ST2>yw :)
00:50<CompuDesktop>now i can join the reddit openttd server
00:51<Supercheese>doesn't reddit have its own client?
00:52<Supercheese>ah yes and it uses stable as well
01:00<CompuDesktop>Supercheese: yeah but i want to go on the vanilla and newgrf servers
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02:40<CompuDesktop>hey if anyone is still here, is there a way for me to add music to the openttd jukebox? like custom music?
02:44<Supercheese>I think you need to make a sound pack... but really, just play your favorite music using a different player in the background
02:44<Supercheese>it is a zillion and five times easier
02:44<ST2>second that ^^
02:57<CompuDesktop>my computer is lagging to much, i dont have the best computer
02:58<ST2>openttd causing it? (I think a pertinent question ^^)
03:01<@peter1138>OpenTTD only plays MIDI files.
03:01<CompuDesktop>its causing it in the sense that if i wasnt running openttd i could play music
03:01<CompuDesktop>peter1138: i have a few midis
03:01<@peter1138>And then, if your computer can't cope with playing music in a separate player, why should it cope playing it anywhere else?
03:02<CompuDesktop>it can handle the in game music
03:02<ST2>if OpenTTD is the cause then I bet it's map size/vehicles ingame, etc
03:02<CompuDesktop>i have a rather crappy desktop running vista
03:02<CompuDesktop>and yes i know "upgrade blah blah"
03:02<CompuDesktop>i dont have the money
03:03<CompuDesktop>openttd lags just being in the add ons install menu
03:04<CompuDesktop>and the map im playing in is something like 1000x2000
03:04<ST2>as an experience, try to join other MP games, with smaller maps and no newgrf's, or start new SP game in same conditions
03:04<ST2>just as an experience :)
03:04<CompuDesktop>and this is a vanilla game
03:05<CompuDesktop>ST2: 1 sec i have a system hardware stats file
03:06<CompuDesktop>thats my system
03:07<@peter1138>Should be fine.
03:07<ST2>windows Vista dnt help there
03:07<ST2>and openttd should run fine, without issues
03:07<CompuDesktop>yeah i know
03:08<CompuDesktop>well i have firefox running
03:08<@peter1138>4GB RAM and dual core 3 GHz is plenty.
03:08<CompuDesktop>and chatzilla
03:08<CompuDesktop>and quassel irc
03:08<@peter1138>But you want a 64bit OS really.
03:09<CompuDesktop>and dropbox, avast, screencloud, logitech mouse and keyboard stuffs, oh and opendns updater
03:09<CompuDesktop>peter1138: sorry, came with this OS
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03:10<ST2>well, you can have a 40 ton truck, but if you put it pulling 80 ton, will go slower, for sure
03:10<ST2>try cleanup some running proccesses (especially the memory/cpu abusers ^^)
03:11<ST2>if safe, ofc xD
03:11<CompuDesktop>its the graphics chip on this machine that really cripples it
03:11<CompuDesktop>cant even handle video above 480p
03:11<CompuDesktop>ST2: look at the graphics chip info
03:12<@peter1138>Plenty for OpenTTD.
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03:13<ST2>cpu speed is more important for openttd that graphics cards (I think ^^)
03:14<ST2>especially with big/crowded maps
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03:14<@peter1138>1024x2048 is a large map
03:14<@peter1138>So being slow is not surprising.
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03:15<Supercheese>jeez that's quite a map
03:15-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1048:5400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has joined #openttd
03:15<ST2>as I was telling to CompuDesktop, to he try join some server with a 512x512, for example
03:15<Supercheese>I just started a 512x256 and it's plenty
03:15<ST2>and see if still lags
03:15<chillcore>hello all o/
03:15<ST2>hi :)
03:16<chillcore>hihi ST2
03:16<supermop>512^2 keeps be busy far longer than i'd care to play a game anyway
03:16<CompuDesktop>its the reddit vanilla server map
03:17<supermop>i almost never play a game with one dimension of 2048, when i do its mostly just water or something
03:18<ST2>well, sometimes we get servers "eating" 1GB+ RAM and cpu @ ~30%
03:18<ST2>the big maps
03:18<ST2>but smaller are piece of cake (server and client side :)
03:19<supermop>after spending the last 36 hours frantically designing a stupid house for my boss i now feel like i can divert myself for a few hours
03:19<supermop>not sure what if anything to do next on roads though
03:20<@peter1138>Design it with Lego.
03:20<supermop>no coder is forthcoming, so i am loathe to draw up more exotic alternate sprites for the time being
03:20<ST2>7:15 am here and left work 1 hour ago... after 20 working hours, so yeah, I understand you too ^^
03:20<supermop>if there was an easy to use lego modelling software
03:21<supermop>the worst part is that it is intetionally a not very good house for proof of concept
03:21<chillcore>if "lanscape grid html" mentiones bits being inherited does that mean the free bits too?
03:22<supermop>so i spent hours last night walking back design choices with my boss to make it more like the type of house we are aiming to represent
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03:23<ST2>btw, still giving 504's (I have no idea who can fix it - I got an alternative solution for CompuDesktop download 1.4.4 :)
03:23<CompuDesktop>ST2: yep and working great
03:32<supermop>making all those square road tiles past few days reminded me so much of grey lego road baseplates
03:33<supermop>could really use a lego baseset
03:33<supermop>but then it should be newgrfs instead, so you could also add space, etc
03:33<supermop>also lego train tracks would look so sad without curved pieces
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03:36<Supercheese>curved pieces would be technically possible IIRC, just a boatload of work
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03:45<supermop>also set capacity of airplanes to like 4 pax
03:51<supermop>the old lego town airport from when i was a kid came with a jet
03:51<supermop>4 bumps wide, it carried one pilot and 4 passengers
03:52<supermop>the side opened like a clamshell to load
03:56<supermop>now im looking through tons of photos of the old lego monorail system for town and space
03:56<supermop>gah i wanted that so bad as a kid
04:05<supermop>what could have been....
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04:08<__ln__>that's not realistic
04:09<supermop>i had no idea the was a trend of people building absurd interpretations of the old lego monorail
04:09<supermop>anyway what to do now? bus stops? stations?
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04:12<supermop>yo yo yo yo yo
04:12<argoneus>good morning train friends
04:12<supermop>monorail friends
04:12<supermop>Ogdenville would be good name for a monorail set
04:17<CompuDesktop>reddit vanilla server seems to have crashed
04:17<Pikkaphone>supermop: why does your boss need a stupid house?
04:19<Pikkaphone>Oh I see, I read more log. :)
04:21<supermop>specifics may be covered by NDA for now
04:21<supermop>but basically to show that we can
04:23<CompuDesktop>my computer is getting rather warm while playing this
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04:34<chillcore>supermop: bus/tram stops would kinda make sense following tramtracks and roads?
04:35<chillcore>although stations could be fun too since they are a thing of their own?
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05:12<chillcore>hmm this logitech stuffs is rediculous ... the software must be running or programmable keys do not work ... that means I do not have to bother setting things up since it will not work on linux anyways
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05:14<chillcore>also "you agree that we may collect, maintain, processand diagnostic, technical and related info, including but not limited to info about your product, computer system, ans application software, product support, peripherals and other related devices ... tralalalalala"
05:14<chillcore>dafuq dudes I bought a keyboard ...
05:15*chillcore has bought the last piece of logitech hardware ever
05:15<Supercheese>just block the program from accessing anything it shouldn't be
05:15<chillcore>as if that helps ... stupid americans and their backdoors
05:16<Supercheese>Isn't Logitech Swiss?
05:16<chillcore>thing is I can not even configure the shizz wthout connectng onliine and the special buttons do not work when the prog s not runningand
05:17<chillcore>no american
05:17<chillcore>at least my mouse has a memory buit in so it works on linux too
05:17<chillcore>but only after configuring in windoze
05:18<chillcore>these companies will do everything to get a hold of your nfo and habits
05:19<chillcore>seling personal data is the biggest revenue it seems these days
05:19<chillcore>why do you think steam games are so cheap?
05:19<chillcore>anyhoo ... *ranting mode off*
05:20<chillcore>steam changed their TOS too ... again ... it is services now ... not software no more
05:20<chillcore>don't agree? feel free to stop using your games
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05:20<Supercheese>yeah I stopped using Steam years ago
05:21<chillcore>I still update KSP that is it ... 1 game out of 55 ... such a waste of money
05:22<chillcore>already replaced 20 of them with console versions
05:22<chillcore>eg farcry 3 ... just works no registration needed
05:23<chillcore>anyhoo I am rambling again ...
05:25<chillcore>by stupid americans I meant stupid american corporates and their lust for power not the normal peeps who are victims of the dictatorship
05:38<chillcore>well at least the backlighting works as intended
05:38*chillcore closes logitech site and goes back to doing sane stuffs
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09:48<Eddi|zuHause><chillcore> dafuq dudes I bought a keyboard ... <-- that basically means "i agree that you installed a keylogger and spyware"
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10:19<Samu>I'm getting 504 Gateway Time-out nginx/1.6.2 when visiting
10:22<@peter1138>Don't go there then!
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10:32<Samu>uhm, ok
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10:44<andythenorth>no nanas?
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10:49<UukGoblin>one thing that annoys me greatly is that delivering cargo from far away is much more profitable than delivering the same cargo from a nearby source
10:49<UukGoblin>it's kinda messed up like real world
10:49<UukGoblin>we should promote local produce!
10:50<andythenorth>can you suggest a better calculation?
10:50<andythenorth>there are acres of forum threads about it, but no solution
10:50<UukGoblin>nah, I was hoping maybe someone else did ;-)
10:50<andythenorth>the logical conclusion is that transporting 1 tile should pay most
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10:50<andythenorth>but that seems to not be a popular suggestion
10:51<andythenorth>for some reason, players dislike both long routes and short routes
10:51<andythenorth>this makes designing any improvement a bit tricky
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10:54<qwebirc118> is down?
10:54<qwebirc118>And I'm looking for the newest version for MAC OS
10:54<andythenorth>looks down to me
10:55<andythenorth>probably will come back
10:55<qwebirc118>yeah, thanks
10:55<andythenorth>dunno if mirrors are up, probably
10:56<andythenorth>hmm maybe not
10:56<andythenorth>US mirror is up
10:56<qwebirc118>couldnt find mac OS
10:57<qwebirc118>i found it
10:58<UukGoblin>andythenorth, I was thinking something along the lines of cargo having a price based on supply/demand
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10:59<UukGoblin>if a cargo is scarce in a region, it should make sense to transport it from far, because its price in that region would be high
10:59<andythenorth>in theory that could be done, at least per town
10:59<andythenorth>there is a newgrf town spec with storage
11:00<andythenorth>and there’s a custom cargo profit calculation for newgrf cargos
11:00<UukGoblin>mhm :-)
11:00<UukGoblin>so basically we need a volunteer to make it into a nice sensible mod :-)
11:02<Samu>suddenly, a surprise factory pop ups
11:02<andythenorth>there’s a factory making surprises? :o
11:02<Samu>yeah, it ruined my trucks yesterday
11:02<UukGoblin>Samu, I'm playing A Song of Ice and Fire scenario, and I now have two factories popped up on The Wall
11:03<UukGoblin>what a place to put them on
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> there’s a factory making surprises? :o <- something exciting, something to play with, and chocolate?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>(that's a slogan they advertised kinder eggs with in the 90s)
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12:09<Samu>I found a bug, kinda
12:09<Samu>build 2 airports and have an aircraft going to them
12:10<Samu>then, destroy one of the airports when the aircraft isn't in there, and build a helistation
12:10<Samu>when the aircraft is coming back to the now helistation
12:10<Samu>it can't land, that's normal, I know
12:11<Samu>but when you order it to go to hangar, it still tries to get to the helistation hangar
12:11<Samu>shouldn't it pick another hangar instead?
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12:19<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: no, hangar is always chosen from the current destination
12:28<Samu>hmm but the hangar can only build aircraft
12:29<Samu>oops helis
12:30<Samu>it's an helicopter only hangar
12:31<Samu>i thought it wouldn't be eligible for maintenance
12:32<Samu>like trams depots vs road depots, i guess
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, it works differently
12:34<Samu>electric rail vs not-electric rail depots?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>is that a question?
12:38<Samu>it works correctly with them
12:38<Samu>why wouldn't it work for the different hangar types?
12:39<@Alberth>a hangar is not a depot?
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12:40<LordAro>TrueBrain: stuff broke
12:40<LordAro>main site is down
12:41<LordAro>all subdomains except bananas appear to be working though
12:42<UukGoblin>what compiles NewGRFs?
12:42<frosch123> <- nml
12:42<@Alberth>or grfcodec <- NFO
12:43<@Alberth>you'll like NML a lot more :)
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12:49<UukGoblin>oh yes, looking at the example one - definitely
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13:38<TrueBrain>LordAro: sounds weird, as main website and BaNaNaS run on the same django instance :P
13:38<TrueBrain>but let me check
13:38<andythenorth>come back nanas
13:39<andythenorth>I miss you
13:40<TrueBrain>seems django was taking a piss
13:40<TrueBrain>I told him to get back here immediatly
13:40<TrueBrain>it seems he did
13:41<TrueBrain>LordAro: FYI, reports like "all subdomains" make me giggle
13:41<TrueBrain>as you dont know all subdomains
13:41<TrueBrain>so that is a false statement in every possible way :P
13:41<TrueBrain>but as a nice piece of info, wiki and bugs did run fine :)
13:41<LordAro>i thought about writing something like that when i wrote it :p
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13:41<TrueBrain>but tnx for the report; seems django just got stuck
13:41<TrueBrain>it tends to do that :)
13:42<LordAro>for instance, i knew i couldn't remember the bamboo subdomain
13:42<TrueBrain>if wiki. works and www. doesnt, django is down :)
13:43<TrueBrain>and is where the CF is at :)
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13:43<LordAro>farm, that's it
13:43<TrueBrain>meh, I rolled over the django instance before checking the logs
13:43<TrueBrain>only to realise someone wrote > instead of >>
13:47<andythenorth>developers was up too
13:48<andythenorth>including a page from some guy called TrueBrain, listing mirrors
13:51<TrueBrain> would have been up too :P
13:51<TrueBrain>just saying ;)
13:51<TrueBrain>it distributed people automatically :)
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14:24<andythenorth>frosch123: you wrote a script to parse eints commits for changelogs?
14:25*andythenorth prepping Iron Horse release
14:27<@Alberth>it gets automagically collected with nightlies or bundles or so
14:28<@Alberth> <- andythenorth like that
14:30<andythenorth>ok, so I can stop crediting people in the changelog
14:32<@Alberth>just copy/paste that text :)
14:33<andythenorth>is it ‘all time’ or ‘since last tag'?
14:33*andythenorth assumes ‘all time'
14:34<@Alberth>I assume that too
14:34<@Alberth>which is fair enough
14:35<frosch123>andythenorth: it's since eints uses that commit message format :p
14:41*andythenorth can no longer be bothered to list individual language updates :P
14:43<Samu>bah i hate assertions
14:44<Samu> bool river = GetWaterClass(tile) ? WATER_CLASS_RIVER : 0;
14:44<Samu>why does this fail
14:45<Samu>Warning 1 warning C4800: 'int' : forcing value to bool 'true' or 'false' (performance warning) c:\openttd\trunk\src\water_cmd.cpp 422 1 openttd
14:45<Samu>and a warning on top of it
14:45<@Alberth>yeah, I am sure 0 is not a boolean, and I have strong doubts about WATER_CLASS_RIVER too :)
14:46<frosch123>Sylf: TrueBrain rather wants to give you a cookie on the next ottd meeting, than reactivate the mirror index pages :)
14:47<TrueBrain>ITS TRUE
14:49<@peter1138>Samu, yeah, it means what it says...
14:49<TrueBrain>omg, since when do things mean what they say?
14:49<TrueBrain>that is .. omg
14:50<@Alberth>no worries, it's just to confuse you more
14:51<Samu> bool river = GetWaterClass(tile) ? WATER_CLASS_RIVER==true : false;
14:51<@peter1138>Samu, try some logic.
14:51<TrueBrain>... lolz
14:51<TrueBrain>best statement of the day :D
14:52-!-Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:53<Samu>you guys are making me laugh for some reason
14:53<TrueBrain>only fair; you make me laugh too
15:01-!-JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
15:02<Samu> bool river = GetWaterClass(tile) == WATER_CLASS_RIVER;
15:02<Samu>no more warning
15:02<Samu>but i get assertion errors
15:02<Samu>if i ignore the assertion, it works
15:02-!-gelignite [] has joined #openttd
15:03<Samu>water_map.h line 108
15:04<Samu>if i build on river directly, no assertions
15:04<Samu>if i build on land, two assertions
15:08<Samu>i have an idea, gonna try this some other way
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15:11-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1048:5400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has joined #openttd
15:11<chillcore>hello all
15:18<chillcore>hi Alberth
15:18<@Alberth>hmm, I seem to have missed a regex ?
15:19<@Alberth>at least I remember you telling me about that?
15:19-!-shirish [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:20<chillcore>the negative values patch ... but I am not using it for the moment because I have no clue how .... yet ;)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> seems django was taking a piss <-- maybe you unchained him?
15:23<chillcore>I'll explain in more detail in a bit alberth, if you want. just writing a reply to moki at the moment
15:25<Samu>doesn't work
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>great. moving on.
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15:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27195 /branches/1.5 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2015-03-18 20:33:34 +0100 )
15:33<@DorpsGek>[1.5] -Update: Documentation
15:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27196 tags/1.5.0-RC1/ (2015-03-18 20:35:49 +0100 )
15:35<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.5.0-RC1
15:37<Samu>can't make it work. this is the best approach so far
15:37<Samu>but it gives me assertions
15:38<andythenorth>urgh :(
15:38*andythenorth just found a valid use for factory pattern :(
15:38<andythenorth>I hate that
15:38<andythenorth>at least I don’t have a factory factory
15:46<frosch123>andythenorth: is there a news factory?
15:46<frosch123>can you transform eddi into one?
15:46<andythenorth>depends if he’s ducktyped
15:47<andythenorth>if he won’t quack, then probably not
15:47<tulsy>Can I suggest that it'd make more sense for the default for conditional orders to be 'Skip to order X if cargo equals 100%', rather than the current default which is 'Skip to order X if cargo equals 0'
15:47<chillcore>Alberth: regex: as it is now you can enter a negative sign anywhere you want in a querrybox (and even multiple), the code is not adjusted to have ints there ... only uinst (despite the string saying "STR_JUST_INT")
15:48<andythenorth>managed to avoid the factory
15:48<chillcore>the few value in the setting that do have negative values all have little arrows that allow ou to select a negative sign
15:48<chillcore>hence why I will need regex
15:48<chillcore>^^^ stilll needs to be fixed
15:49<chillcore>so much to do ... so little time :P
15:49<@Alberth>hmm, regex sounds like huge overkill for a negative sign
15:49<@Alberth>no worries, you're not going to fix all the problems in the world :p
15:50<chillcore>I had to explicetly allow negative signs because that was not there neither
15:50<@Alberth>yeah I remember that, but didn't look what you did in the end
15:51<@Alberth>as I have the same problem as you :p
15:51*andythenorth wants more thread units
15:51<chillcore>I did nothing yet, except for allowing a negative sign to be there :P
15:51<chillcore>even 10 of them haha
15:51<andythenorth>it’s over-rated, having a near silent laptop without excessive fan use, and 10 hour battery life in a tiny case
15:51<@Alberth>good enough for now, I guess
15:52<andythenorth>moar thread units, moar faster compiling of Iron Horse
15:53<@Alberth>a 42" rack would nicely :p
15:53-!-shirish_ [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
15:53<@Alberth>preferably somewhere at the other end of the street :)
15:53<andythenorth>probably less portable
15:54*andythenorth should set up network rendering :P
15:54<@Alberth>quite possibly
15:54<andythenorth>it’s a map-reduce kind of approach anyway
15:54<Samu>oh yesh, I did it
15:54<Samu> bool river = HasTileWaterClass(tile) && GetWaterClass(tile) == WATER_CLASS_RIVER;
15:55<Samu>no assertions, no warnings
15:55<Samu>much happy
15:55<Samu>and the bit is set
15:55<chillcore>anyhoo today was a very interesting day ... my iPad had all applications deleted at some point (but not really) and the fans were disabled on my laptop when I booted it just before logging in here
15:55<chillcore>*tinfoil hat on* maybe I talk too much
15:56<chillcore>iPad is fixed after some messing about and fans are spinning happily :P
15:56-!-Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:56<Samu>hi chillcore
15:57<chillcore>I found a nice spot for you to save the bit samu
15:57<Samu>I'm doing stuff
15:57<Samu>which spot
15:57<chillcore>I saw that ... I read most of the times before joining to see if I do not disrupt a big conversation if I start talking immediatly
15:57<chillcore>exactly 1 bit free
15:58<Samu>can't, there's industry tiles that uses it
15:58<Samu>the station from the oil rig puts a 1 in there
15:58<chillcore>hmm then why is it marked as free?
15:58<chillcore>anyhoo you know more about them bits then me so its all good
15:59<Samu>or actually, the industry tiles does it first, then a station goes up right after without affecting it
15:59<Samu>it stays as 1
15:59-!-shirish [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:59<tulsy>What language(s) is openTTD written in?
15:59<Samu>code language
15:59<chillcore>but cool that you have it stored now
16:00<chillcore>lol samu c++
16:00<tulsy>Lol, right
16:00<Samu>nfo c++ diff
16:01<chillcore>Squirrel for scripts and AIs, NML/nfo for newgrf, c++ for openttd (some parts still in C)
16:03<chillcore>details samu they matter A LOT, except for what you are doing. :P
16:03<tulsy>So I asked a couple of times already, but it seems not to be getting any responses:
16:03<tulsy>Wouldn't it it'd make more sense for the default for conditional orders to be 'Skip to order X if cargo equals 100%', rather than the current default which is 'Skip to order X if cargo equals 0'?
16:04<tulsy>I'd offer to try and do this, but my lowly Java skills are low and irrelevant apparently =\
16:06<Samu>the 1 indicates there is a cpmplete industry tile
16:07<Samu>so, hmm
16:07<Samu>I dunno
16:07<Samu>it's not related to station tiles though
16:08<@Alberth>tulsy: what if you tried to pick up something, but there wasn't any cargo?
16:08<@Alberth>ie both cases are reasonable
16:08<@Alberth>which means that any default will make 1/2 the people unhappy
16:08<tulsy>but the order refers to the amount of cargo in the vehicle doesn't it? not the amount of waiting cargo
16:09<@Alberth>yes, you load at a station, if no cargo -> next loading station
16:09<tulsy>sorry I said 'cargo' earlier, but i meant 'load'
16:10<tulsy>the default is 'If load = 0, skip to X', but I've never seen how that could be useful
16:10<@Alberth>load 100% is easy, just specify full load :)
16:10<tulsy>Whereas I often use 'if load = 100, go to X'
16:10<@Alberth>oh, I have used it to skip some far away delivery stations
16:10<tulsy>well what I do, and this is arguably not optimal, is send a train down the line, get it to full up along the way, and when its full start to head back
16:11<@Alberth>both are valid cases imho
16:11<@Alberth>but you can have only one default
16:11<tulsy>rather than go all the way to the end although it's already full, because that reduces the payment
16:11<chillcore>ye but peeps also skip at 90 because stoppig for just 10% is not worth it ... and so many other reasons
16:11<chillcore>ask 100 peeps and you get 200 different answers :P
16:12<UukGoblin>so in Cargo's 'profit' callback I get extra_callback_info2 with time spent en-route, the amount of cargo delivered and the manhattan distance it was transported. But I guess I won't be able to get to information about the accepting industry from that callback? I'm thinking to calculate income based on how far an industry is from other industries
16:12<@Alberth>tulsy: a common mistake is that people think everybody plays the game in the same way as they do
16:13<tulsy>Well I'm pretty sure I saw the same thing noted on the Wiki, which is why I came here to raise it
16:13<@Alberth>I think it's much closer to the opposite
16:13<@Alberth>hmm, someone wrote it a the wiki, must be true then :)
16:13<tulsy>well they didnt write exactly that
16:14<tulsy>but they do the same thing that I do
16:14<chillcore>I have this one game where I switch driving side three times ... just for giggles :P
16:14<tulsy>I actually wanted to add that to the wiki, but didnt have time to sign up etc yet
16:14<@Alberth>I have done what you do too
16:15<@Alberth>but that doesn't make one default much better than another one
16:15<tulsy>Yea, I mean the thing is, I can't think of any situation where you _would_ want the 'if load = 0, skip to X' order?
16:16<@Alberth>I loaded at a station, and drive to several customers, returning when I am empty?
16:16<tulsy>I'm not sure how that could be used basically, any ideas?
16:16<frosch123>add a favorites menu, which collects the conditional orders you use, and allow binding them to hotkeys :)
16:17<tulsy>zomg pls explain that more
16:17<tulsy>because that would be super handy
16:17<chillcore>tulsy you may want to skip a delivery order if the cargo bay is empty
16:17<@Alberth>tulsy: basically, make it more flexible so everybody can have his/her own set of defaults
16:17<frosch123>sorry, that was a suggestion for a patch, not something that exists already
16:18<tulsy>Chilcore: yea but it doesn't relate to cargo, it relates to the load on the vehicle. I don;t think there is a 'skip station if waiting cargo = 0' order
16:18<tulsy>Ah ok, shame because that would be very useful
16:18<Samu>hmm, toyland piggy-bank doesn't look like a pig when using opengfx
16:19<tulsy>yea if you could set the defaults in the Advanced options that'd be nice too
16:19<@Alberth>hmm, eints GS pretty much covers openttd string codes already :)
16:20<chillcore>hmm ok
16:20<Samu>I noticed rocks from other tileset on toyland
16:20<frosch123>Alberth: you need the superset of gs and newgrf :p
16:20<frosch123>gs string codes pluse cases/genders
16:21<Eddi|zuHause><chillcore> *tinfoil hat on* maybe I talk too much <-- Cisco now offers a service to send hardware to some fake/empty adress instead of to you, to avoid NSA interceptions
16:21<@Alberth>frosch123: true, but that's easy :)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>*address (i probably make this mistake every time, because it's different in german and english)
16:22<frosch123>Alberth: i am still wondering where to define the languages
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: more like a missing feature
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: anyway, that is known
16:23<Samu>speaking of toyland, no one joins my game
16:23<@Alberth>frosch123: don't allow adding new languages, and just use the values of the files?
16:23<chillcore>eddi ... good to know ... ye in dutch it is adres
16:23-!-shirish_ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:24<UukGoblin>from, the link is now gone
16:24<frosch123>Alberth: true, we don't need "new language" if there is only one project
16:24<@Alberth>we might, but it doesn't happen often :)
16:25<@Alberth>but what parts actually change?
16:25<@Alberth>ie things like name of the language probably won't :)
16:25<@Alberth>perhaps the list of genders or cases..
16:26<chillcore>eddi ... I did not install the needed software for this keyboard at all ... I read eulas before installing anything these days ... the absurdness is off the scale
16:26<frosch123>UukGoblin: try again
16:26<UukGoblin>frosch123, thanks :-)
16:27<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.4, 1.5.0-RC1
16:27-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.4, 1.5.0-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: i don't know what kind of software you got with your keyboard. i just plugged mine in and it works...
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i never even looked at the CD that came with the box
16:28<UukGoblin>I'm also looking for more info regarding the 0x100 (and the like?) register
16:28<UukGoblin>or registers in general
16:28<UukGoblin>could I use it to pass a message from an industry to a cargo?
16:29<chillcore>ye mine too ... hardware does not provide these little cdroms in the box no more like they used too
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: those are special write-only registers, which can be used in certain callbacks
16:29<Samu>"gaming media keylight camera phone speakers"-keyboard maybe
16:29<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, right, so they're not general-purpose
16:29<chillcore>I have a logitech 105 and for it to work, the programmable keys that is, The software MUST be running at all times
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: no
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: you might be looking for persistent storage
16:30-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
16:30<chillcore>and since their stuff does not run onlinux anyways there is no pioint in configuring it
16:30<@Alberth>moin W
16:30<frosch123>you cannot pass any data to the cargo profit callbacks from somewhere else
16:30<UukGoblin>for instance, I'd like the income given for delivering a tonne of coal to a steel mill depend on how far the nearest coal mine is from that mill
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: my keyboard just sends special keycodes that any linux program can catch
16:31<UukGoblin>frosch123, right :-(
16:31<chillcore>my mouse I bought last year I could configere and it remembers ... all three settings
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: KDE just let me select to map things like volume control onto the mixer. or it even worked out of the box
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't tried configuring mouse keys
16:32<frosch123>UukGoblin: you may be better of using a gamescript
16:32<frosch123>you could reward servicing lonely industries
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>there are probably people around the internet who figured this out
16:32<frosch123>take a look at "busy bee" for ideas
16:32<UukGoblin>frosch123, aha, thanks!
16:32<chillcore>my G keys functio as F1 to F6 ... I have not yet tried to set it up in linux to be honest, I just kow their prog does not work because the one for my mouse refused to do so
16:33-!-Compu [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:8001:1d9c:5db8:3c1c:759d] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:33<Samu>time to head to remove canal code
16:34<chillcore>eddi but yeah if you go to their site and check the manual they say themselves that the keys stop working the moment you stop the prog
16:35-!-Plaete [] has joined #openttd
16:35<chillcore>possibly linux don't care for that much
16:35-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
16:38<tulsy>Do you get penalised/lose money for transporting cargo away from an industry before delivering it? in other words, do you get paid by the square regardless of the direction of travel?
16:38<chillcore>keep it simple samu ... just check if the bit is one and restore to the owner that river gets at mapgen
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: but it's not the keys that stop working, it's the translation of keypresses into actions that stops working
16:39<tulsy>I was under the impression that transporting along the shortest route paid the most, but I saw a video that made it seem that only speed matters
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>tulsy: the distance between the station signs matters, not where the vehicle actually went
16:40<frosch123>average speed (including loading time) is what matters
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>so if it's faster to go around the mountain rather than across it, then you can do that.
16:40<chillcore>eddi: hmm ... ye but they are assigned as F keys now ... if I assign them in linux themselves will then not also my F keys change in the same way, also the keys to change profile do not work at all
16:41<tulsy>Ok well this is the video I was refering to:
16:41<frosch123>vehicle perform the worst if they take longer for loading than for travelling :)
16:41<chillcore>the key to disable the windows keys does work
16:41<tulsy>now I would have expected the train on the left to be paid more, because it was faster, but the other one actually gets paid more, despite going a longer route
16:42<chillcore>I'll have a look i a it eddi, thanks for the hint
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: there are things like keymaps, where the raw codes from the keyboard get mapped onto "virtual keys" that then get promoted to the applications. i suppsoe there's something similar for mouse keys
16:42<frosch123>tulsy: most of those comparison videos are silly. they compare income on a single trip, not considering that you can do multiple trips on a short route in the same time the long trip takes
16:42<tulsy>hrm, interesting point
16:43<chillcore>I guess so yes ... my mouse is fine ... all 9 * 3 buttons
16:43<chillcore>G300 ^^^
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>tulsy: this video doesn't show the loading of the vehicles. tiny differences there could show this effect
16:46<tulsy>yea I thought that might be the case too
16:47<tulsy>I'm still a bit unclear if tiles traveled+highest speed pays more, or shortest distance+highest speed does?
16:48<tulsy>This is regardless of multiple trips, because essentially I have multiple trains on the line, saturating it so that they always collect all the cargo available
16:48-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:49<tulsy>so essentially when they reach the end of the line and turn around/head back, they're almost always 100% loaded
16:49<frosch123>if you set running cost to zero, and loading time to zero, speed (=distance per time) is the only thing that matters
16:49-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
16:49<tulsy>BUT they travel backwards/away from the industry at some points
16:49<tulsy>Right, ok thanks
16:49<chillcore>tulsy you can check the payment graph for that and calculate ... but in the end distance wins ;)
16:49<frosch123>when considering loading time you have to include it into the average of distance per time, whenever a piece of cargo is loaded
16:50<frosch123>when considering running cost you have to consider train length
16:50-!-sla_ro|master [] has quit []
16:50<frosch123>so, essentially you get a balancing problem:
16:50<@Alberth>you can also just ignore those details, as you have way too much money anyway :p
16:50<frosch123>short trains -> faster loading -> faster average speed -> more income
16:51<tulsy>Yea, well thats why I do it this way, because I figure its better to have the trains rolling as much as possible, rather than waiting ages in a station to be fully loaded, if nothing else because I gather more trains stopping at a station = higher station rating
16:51<frosch123>long trains -> more capacity per train -> less trains -> less running cost
16:51<tulsy>well I tend to balance the capacity out every one in a while in line with the industry production fluctuations yea
16:52<frosch123>you need to balance the length of the train with the amount of cargo that is available :)
16:52<tulsy>snap ;)
16:52<@Alberth>I often build different trains and just look which one makes most money in a year
16:53*andythenorth always conducts a rigorous cost-benefit analysis
16:53<frosch123>andythenorth: what's the result for irc?
16:53<andythenorth>but insufficient data
16:53<tulsy>Well you see, using the conditional order 'if load = 100% skip to last order', I can easily see if trains are filling up before they reach the end of the line, or if they're filling up on the way back too, which makes it easy to guage if more or less capacity is needed
16:53<andythenorth>serious players run multiple simulations
16:54<andythenorth>thereby optimising their strategy iteratively
16:54<frosch123>oh, btw. firs 100% cheat totally breaks that balancing :p
16:54-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
16:54<andythenorth>it’s dumb :)
16:55<frosch123>because you do not need to use full-load orders, thus the loading time does not depend on train length
16:55<tulsy>Lol, I see
16:55<tulsy>What is this 100% cheat exactly?
16:55<frosch123>so with firs 100% cheat, the longest train that can travel at max speed is the best
16:56<tulsy>sounds like it defies the whole point, but I guess cheats tend to do that anyway
16:56<chillcore>oh a wild PeterT appears
16:56<frosch123>100% cheat means station rating always 100%
16:56<tulsy>Ah right
16:56<frosch123>so, no need to always have a train waiting etc
16:57<tulsy>but I thought it was more important to have many trains stopping than just one waiting for a full load? (on long lines at least)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's an omen!
16:58<PeterT>you won't believe where I am rn
16:58<chillcore>hey there ... it has been a long time ... I still have not forgotten about you ;)
16:58-!-oskari89 [] has quit []
16:58<chillcore>in a good way
16:58<PeterT>thanks, it's been a while
16:59<PeterT>i'm in Szeged, Hungary
16:59<PeterT>im going to med school here
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>how's the gulasch?
16:59<PeterT>Nagyon jo! (very good)
17:00<PeterT>actually i dont like gulash but i like palacsinta which is similar to crepes
17:00<chillcore>nice ..; good luck with finishing them studies succesfully
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was an austrian dish
17:00<frosch123>wasn't there the issue that eu requires food to be fresh, while gulasch is best if it is a day old?
17:01<PeterT>alot of hungarian food is best a day old
17:01<chillcore>so are carbonades and spaghetti sauce
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't want 1 day old salami...
17:01<chillcore>not dead enough?
17:01-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
17:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: have you tried 1 day old gouda?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't eat cheese
17:02-!-PeterT_ [] has joined #openttd
17:02<Samu>woah, i just made something stupid by accident
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>but i suppose "1 day old gouda" is more like thick milk ;p
17:03-!-PeterT_ is now known as Guest726
17:03<__ln__>the same PeterT from 2010?
17:03<Samu>i made terraforming rivers possible by accident, lel
17:03<Guest726>I forgot how to take back your nick name
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>would be bad if there were multiple...
17:03<frosch123>__ln__: we only need yorick now
17:03<frosch123>and we can shut down the channel
17:03<yorick>frosch123: go ahead
17:04<frosch123>damn :p
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i could add a handful of names to that list
17:04*andythenorth forgets the ‘install’ part of ‘make install’ yet again
17:04-!-Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04<Guest726>It be financially beneficial for me if there were more than one of me Eddi|zuHause
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>normal people get a mate for that, not a clone...
17:05<yorick>gotta find someone willing to do that, then
17:05<Guest726>thats not what i was thinking of, exactly
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what have you done!?
17:05<Guest726>I was thinking about my profession
17:06<Samu>omg i can't believe i did this
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>then you need a colleague
17:06<chillcore><Samu> i made terraforming rivers possible by accident, lel <- see what happens if you do not do 5 things at once ;)
17:06<Guest726>If i had a clone, then all the money would be mine
17:06<yorick>you people still remember me? sorry for being an annoying teenager.
17:06<Samu>there are missing sprites
17:06<Guest726>you're not a teenager anymore bro
17:06<yorick>Guest726: yes, not anymore! I escaped!
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>some people just make that kind of impression :p
17:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<Samu>but woah, i'm surprised i did something by accident which I intended to do at a later time
17:07<Guest726>yes they give that kind of impression
17:08<Samu> MakeRiver(tile, Random());
17:08-!-PeterT is now known as Guest727
17:08-!-Guest726 is now known as PeterT
17:08<Samu>this simple line
17:09<PeterT>See you in 5 years! I'll be done with the my Dental school by then
17:09-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Goodbye]
17:09-!-Guest727 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>we don't need petert anymore. we have a samu.
17:11<Samu>static CommandCost ClearTile_Water(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags)
17:11<Samu>put this MakeRiver(tile, Random()); inside that for epic results
17:12-!-Compu [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:8001:4dde:f1d:c8a2:14ce] has joined #openttd
17:13<chillcore>hehe eddi, I do not kow how PeterT behaved here as I did not come here much back then.
17:14<chillcore>back then when I learned his age I was surprised he was not older ...
17:14*chillcore wonders what samu is cooking
17:15<Samu>i discovered terraforming rivers by accident when i was attempting to revert canal to river
17:15*ST2 thinks Samu is making powerplats obsolete, creating locks with damn on it
17:16<Compu>openttd website is back up
17:16<chillcore>samu: that you have only mentioned three times so far :P
17:16<chillcore>hello ST2
17:16<ST2>hi :)
17:16<frosch123>Compu: does that worry you?
17:16<Samu>at line 497
17:17<Samu>wait, no, this is my edited file
17:17<Samu>where is the original file?
17:18<andythenorth>new horse
17:19<@Alberth>\o/ andythenorth
17:19<Samu>between line 494 and 495, put MakeRiver(tile, Random());
17:19<Samu>then you can terraform rivers
17:20<Samu>but there's missing graphics
17:20<Samu>yet it seems to work
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17:22<Samu>what i am actually trying to do however is to hae MakeRiver only when removing canals
17:27<Samu>it was incredibly expensive to terraform though
17:28*andythenorth to bed
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17:29-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
17:32<UukGoblin>okay! I think I have a plan with the GS. I'll monitor all deliveries to all industries and then change the player's bank balance periodically based on what the actual cost of the delivery should have been
17:32<UukGoblin>it won't be as neat as the correct profits won't get scored to particular vehicles, but it could work
17:33<UukGoblin>unless I could somehow query the cargo delivered to an industry by a vehicle...
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: for an episode of PeterT
17:33<frosch123> <- UukGoblin: could be a starting point for you
17:34<UukGoblin>frosch123, oh cool! thanks
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17:37<chillcore>eddi: I see after 4 lines already :P , reading the rest ...
17:38<Samu>okay i think i made it
17:38<Samu>let me create patch
17:40<Samu>can't believe I only needed 4 lines
17:41<chillcore><Pikka>Which part is confusing? :P <PeterT> All of it. :D
17:46<Samu>can you look at it
17:46<Samu>or someone else
17:46-!-gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
17:46<chillcore>I am looking at 'it' it being my screen
17:47<chillcore>oh wait you posted a link hehe
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: so, what's left is you improving your workflow so these 4 lines take you an hour, instead of two months
17:49<chillcore>^^^ that.
17:49<Samu>this wasn't my initial plan
17:49<Samu>but ok
17:49<chillcore>who is the owner after restoration samu?
17:49<UukGoblin>hmm, if only there were some profit changing functions in GSVehicle...
17:49<chillcore>just asking because I do not know
17:49<Samu>MakeWater sets the owner
17:49<Samu>let me check
17:50<Samu>yes, OWNER_WATER
17:53<Samu>ST2, u there?
17:53<Samu>test this on your citybuilder plz
17:53<ST2>test what?
17:54<Samu>build a canal on river which area is owned by a competitor, to see what happens when it removes the canal
17:54<chillcore>and terraforming the tile deletes the river flag? <- not sure if that is needed but terraforling rivertiles while keeping the river seems wrong to me somehow
17:54<ST2>needs changes on server side?
17:54<ST2>and be compiled later?
17:54<Samu>currently the script you have removes the canal
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>ST2: this likely needs to be changed on both server and client
17:55<Samu>if there was a river in there, it also means part of the river is also gone
17:55<ST2>I'm guessing that too
17:55<Samu>but I wonder what happens with this patch thing
17:55<ST2>or will create some desyncs
17:56<Samu>is citybuilder GS?
17:56<Samu>wait let me test
17:56<ST2>and Samu: servers are not mine, are part of a community - only 1 server machine is rented by me (we have 3)
17:56<ST2>yes, it's GS
17:57<ST2>same as the BusyBee server (now in 1.5.0-RC1)
17:57<Samu>what is the script that you use when it detects someone building something on area reserved by a competitor?
17:57-!-Plaete [] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
17:58<ST2>area protection is created by the server controller software
17:58<Samu>then i can't test it
17:58<ST2>GS's dnt allow that, yet
17:58<ST2>I think ^^
17:58<UukGoblin>I read and went "OH NOES SVN", but then I clicked the link and it actually turned out to be git :->
17:59<Samu>it detects, then proceeds to removing what i've just built
17:59<UukGoblin>or maybe it's a git svn thing, hm
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: git and hg repos are clones of the svn
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: they are kept in sync automatically
18:01<UukGoblin>right. I'll get back to you once I actually write a patch ;-)
18:01<UukGoblin>(which may be never;-)
18:01<Samu>ok let me test terraform thing chillcore mentioned
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: the svn web interface was removed recently
18:01<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that's what surprised me
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: so browsing on the website can only be done on the hg or git repos
18:02<Samu>error message: must demolish canal first
18:03<Samu>well, working as intended
18:03<chillcore>I meant terraforming a river not canal samu ;)
18:03<chillcore>see what I meant by them being not the same?
18:04<Samu>m6 = 0
18:04<Samu>seems working as intended again
18:04<chillcore>good ... I think
18:04<Samu>how? I don't really know, but it's probably because it is a ground tile
18:05<chillcore>anyhoo congrats on getting it done this time, without too much help
18:05<chillcore>ye it becomes a ground tile, or at least it should
18:05<chillcore>ow try a deleting a canal that was not built on a river
18:05<chillcore>it should become ground too
18:06<chillcore>hmm? build a canl somewhere not on river and test?
18:06<Samu>static inline void MakeClear(TileIndex t, ClearGround g, uint density)
18:06<Samu> _me[t].m6 = 0;
18:07<Samu>there it is
18:07<Samu>it's MakeClear
18:07<Samu>setting it to 0
18:07<chillcore>that does not say much to me TBH
18:07<chillcore>but yeah if the bit is 0 I guess it is good
18:07<Samu>DoClearSquare(tile); does a MakeClear thing, then puts Grass on it
18:08<chillcore>I have not messed around in that area much myself
18:10<Samu>it's working correctly
18:10<chillcore>it seems like you are done then and the future is now? :P
18:10<Samu>deleting a canal that was not built on river becomes ground too
18:10<chillcore>^^^ hat is what I wanted to know yes
18:11<Samu>deleting a canal built on river becomes ground then river (it's a two steps thing)
18:11<Samu>first step is setting the m6=0
18:11<Samu>there's sea to test, let me see
18:12<chillcore>I guess if peeps do not have the time to build something there between them two steps it is good
18:12<chillcore>maybe you could find a way to do it in one step? i dunno
18:13<Samu>destroying canal on sea creates a bareland tile, which is flooded by the nearby sea
18:13<Samu>seems working as intended
18:13<chillcore>s peeps/peeps and AIs
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: speaking of news factory:
18:14<Samu>let me test scenario editor now
18:14<chillcore>yes that is how it goes with sea and wider rivers/canals samu
18:16<Samu>hmm, have to destroy in 2 steps in the editor as well
18:17<Samu>can't build rivers on canals
18:17<chillcore>not two manual steps right? <- for the scenario builder that is
18:17<Samu>so... i dunno if that's how it was
18:17<chillcore>you're not supposed to do that anyways so no prob
18:18<ST2>don't underestimate mother nature, trying to build a river on a canal ^^
18:18<Samu>the error message is misleading
18:18<Samu>can't place rivers here ... already built
18:18<Samu>well, the tile is a canal, so "already built" is misleading
18:20<Samu>it could say already built if the canal was indeed built on a river
18:21<Samu>if it's not, then ... it's a bug?
18:21<chillcore>if (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ... may be useful later maybe. ;)
18:21<chillcore>add an error string in lang files and differentiate?
18:22<Samu>must remove canal first
18:22<Samu>there's this error already somewhere
18:22<Samu>string message
18:22<Samu>can i reuse it?
18:22<chillcore>"... there is a canal here"
18:23<chillcore>yes you can re-use existing strings
18:23<chillcore>if they fit for that situation
18:24<Samu>"can't place rivers here .... already built" ->" can't place rivers here .... must demolish canal first"
18:24<Samu>is it fitting?
18:25<Samu>funny enough, when i build a river on a river, the already built message doesn't show
18:25<Samu>it just rebuilds again
18:25<chillcore><ST2> don't underestimate mother nature, trying to build a river on a canal ^^ <- don't underestimate samu ... he was going to make rivers flood upwards at first :P
18:26<ST2>haha xD
18:26<chillcore>is that an error samu?
18:27<chillcore>I can paint my room blue if it is already blue no prob
18:27<Samu>it looks odd
18:27<chillcore>you can try to 'fix' it but is it needed? it is not an error perse
18:28-!-shirish [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
18:28<chillcore>I will not try stop you now you're on a roll ;)
18:29<UukGoblin>is it possible to pass data from GS to a NewGRF callback?
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18:31<UukGoblin>I find it quite odd that a NewGRF can have a cargo_profit_calc callback, but a GS can't :-)
18:31<Samu>CommandCost CmdBuildCanal(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text)
18:31<Samu>i am building a river, why does it uses CmdBuildCanal?
18:32<TrueBrain>because you are human; humans can only make canals, not rivers
18:33<frosch123>UukGoblin: newgrf run synchronously with the gamestate and make decisions in real time
18:33<frosch123>game scripts run asyncrhonously and do not make immediate decisions
18:33<frosch123>two very different things, with very different possibilities
18:33<UukGoblin>frosch123, ah, that makes sense
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: immediate effect vs. scope of operation are conflicting optimization goals, NewGRFs and GS are on opposite sides of that scale
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRFs have very direct effect, but a very limited scope. GS have a very wide scope, but only very indirect effect
18:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so, is the finger real?
18:35<UukGoblin>right :-)
18:35<frosch123>or is the fake fake a fake? :p
18:36<Samu>i am in the scenario editor and trying to build a river
18:36<frosch123>anyway, i completely ignored the topic, didn't expect it to turn that funny :p
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe try this for context :)
18:37<Samu>ah i see
18:38<Samu> CmdBuildCanal is building everything from sea to canal to river
18:38<Samu>it's named Canal
18:38<Samu>could be named something else
18:39<UukGoblin>so if I wanted to move the income calculation logic to a wide-scope script, I'm pretty much screwed? :-]
18:39<Samu>the error message is generalizing
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: sometimes something is named for the main purpose, instead of the dozen side purposes
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: like you can use a screwdriver as bottle opener, even if it is not called bottle opener
18:40<Samu>what can i do about the error message?
18:40<Samu> return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_ALREADY_BUILT);
18:40<ST2>make a patch with a new string?! (bad idea, you'll spam lang files with specific messages)
18:41<Samu>the string exists
18:41<Samu>but the error message misleads
18:41-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: making good error messages is a really difficult task
18:41<ST2>check the values sent to that string
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>probably one of the most difficult that a programmer faces
18:42<Samu>why is it difficult
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18:42<ST2>note: I'm talking almost from outside, dnt know if STR_ERROR_ALREADY_BUILT accepts them ^^
18:42<Samu>i am building a river on scenario editor, placing it on a canal
18:42<Samu>it triggers return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_ALREADY_BUILT);
18:42<Samu>i wanna change the string
18:43<Samu>not this string, but complement what error to give
18:43<Samu>based on conditions
18:43<Samu>do i make sense? lol
18:44<Samu>let me find the name of the other string
18:44<Samu>which would make sense
18:44<ST2>STR_ERROR_ALREADY_BUILT :{WHITE}... already built <<-- as you can see, only a part of the sentence
18:44<ST2>check how it's built
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: you need to go up a level, to the function that issued the build command
18:45-!-liq3 [] has joined #openttd
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>the princess is in a different castle.
18:47-!-shirish [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:55<ST2>not related but we gotta love the subliminal message xD
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18:56<Samu>case DDSP_CREATE_RIVER:
18:57<Samu>DoCommandP(end_tile, start_tile, WATER_CLASS_RIVER, CMD_BUILD_CANAL | CMD_MSG(STR_ERROR_CAN_T_PLACE_RIVERS), CcBuildCanal);
18:58<Samu>i have no idea what im looking at now
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>ST2: so what if you play it backwards?
19:00<ST2>backwards will become a love song, I think - the subliminal message was because of Portuguese situation (Moonspell is a portuguese band ^^)
19:01<Samu>is that it?
19:01-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>ST2: is that situation really that different from anywhere else?
19:02-!-shirish_ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:03<ST2>I guess not, corrupt polititians and stuff, but I can only talk of my life experiences ^^
19:03<ST2>note: I'm not a polititian xD
19:04<ST2>and well, it's me music I'm listening now... I just know the band and was funny xD
19:05<Samu>here it is, the correct string
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: great. then you only need to find the place where to check for which string to return
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>because you don't want to change the case where the player tries to build a river
19:06<Samu> return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_ALREADY_BUILT);
19:07<chillcore>so future is even darker and filled with lies ... "we use cookies so that dropbox works for you"
19:07<chillcore>it was working without cookies just fine :P
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: my normal browser has cookies, scripts, plugins, whatever disabled
19:07<Samu>CommandCost CmdBuildCanal(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text)
19:08<Samu>it's in here
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: some websites just turn up blank if you go there without javascript
19:08<ST2>I only use dropbox because have 65GB there - and works well with ALT+PrntScrn
19:08<chillcore>huhu me too butthe iPad also ... wether they like that or not :P
19:08-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's your fault for having an ipad :p
19:09<ST2>there's a serie about it now...
19:09-!-JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
19:09<chillcore>true .. on my pc if https does not work and gives me a empty http page I simply close the page
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: i predict that it's getting more and more difficult in the next 10 years to be a low-data internet user
19:09<ST2>found it:
19:09<chillcore>yes ... that kills a lot of peeps with limited data plans
19:10*chillcore only gets unlimited plans
19:11<chillcore>eg. my mobile internet is 250 mb free and then 0.10 euro a mb so I do not even bother using that 250 mb
19:11-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
19:11<chillcore>if that simcard would have cost me anything at all I would not have accepted it
19:12<chillcore>I get free wifi with fon anyways so no need for it even on the road
19:13<chillcore>free is relative ... the wifi traffic is added to my cabled home use
19:13<ST2>in my town, wherever I am, 90% of time I have free wireless - many people is lazy to change router wifi default passwords ans SSID's
19:13<ST2>so ^^
19:13<chillcore>that too ... not in my street however all is locked
19:14<chillcore>too many cheap asses I guess
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even know what my mobile internet costs...
19:15<chillcore>also now whenever someonegets a new connection they lock it on installment for you
19:15<Samu>i disable wifi on my router
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>last time i googled after it, it was probably "0,00x€ per kB, capped at 1€ per day"
19:15<chillcore>ame with NASs they used to all be open and many still are
19:16<ST2>best solution is make access by Mac Address - solved xD
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19:16<ST2>gives more work, but it's the safest way :)
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>but i only use it every few months when i'm on the way and want to double check an email or something
19:17<chillcore>but by default NASs come factory protected with password ... now after someone kicked some hell by stealing data from some airport and telling them about it aferwards
19:17<chillcore>and yeah whitelisting MAC adresses is best practice
19:18<chillcore>still can be spoofed though
19:18<Samu>okay i better give up on this error deal before i get frustrated
19:19<ST2>chillcore, spoof proof is disable wifi, I noly said it's safest :P
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>when i got my router, i immediately disabled the wireless, until we actually got a device that was using it
19:20<chillcore>ye I do that too ... if I use my wireless router, which I try not to do ... stupid ipad no work no wired because I would if I could
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19:23<ST2>and in about ~30 minutes I'll update our 2nd test server to RC1 \o/
19:23-!-shirish__ [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
19:24<chillcore>hehe I once looked at my exes router ... she was complaining about slow internet ... IIRC I kicked seven peeps off at once
19:24<ST2>I think many people download test/trunk versions thinking that are stable ones
19:24<chillcore>she left it wide open and there was a playground right across the street, full of happy kids :P
19:24<ST2>haha :)
19:25<ST2>and sudenly they become unhappy?!
19:25<Samu>damn my patch is incomplete grr
19:25<chillcore>ye, even our own kids because I kicked them too :P
19:25<chillcore>I did the mac thing afterwards
19:25*chillcore is not that evil
19:26<Samu>must take care of industry/object/station tiles now
19:26<Samu>probably some other water tiles too
19:26-!-shirish [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:27<chillcore>one thing at a time samu
19:30-!-shirish_ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:31-!-FLHerne [] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!]
19:31<chillcore>damn got that stupid spyware youtube cookie again from tt-forums
19:32<chillcore>there is three peeps or so who have an infected signature
19:32<chillcore>I have my suspicion but ...
19:33<chillcore>prob is when I folow the link I end up on a blank page
19:34<chillcore>I would post the link but don't want to spread diseased stuff
19:36<chillcore>it one person on the last page of 'train sets'
19:36<chillcore>then two others whodid not post there ..; yet
19:39<chillcore>hmm not Redirect Left nor a321Pilot becuse they do not triggerin theother thread
19:39<chillcore>that narrows it down a lot
19:40<chillcore>not Geo ghost ...
19:42<chillcore>that leaves andel or Lobster
19:43<chillcore>or could be google itself with their adds?
19:47-!-Sylf was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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19:48<Sylf>hm, I did not expect that
19:48<UukGoblin>yeah, funny
19:49<chillcore>info does not trigger it neither
19:49<chillcore>but yeah funny
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20:06<UukGoblin>ok, so my current plan is as follows: 1. Add an array of 16-bit variables called "gs_specific" to each station (one gs_specific value for each cargo type), 2. Have GSs update this array to whatever they like for each cargo type, 3. In the NewGRF cargo_profit_calc callback, set the currently unused extra_callback_info1 to (source_station(gs_specific) << 16) | dest_station(gs_specific)
20:07<UukGoblin>this way the GS could compute some kind of cargo value for each station, in my case the value would depend on how far the station is from a nearest mine
20:08<UukGoblin>and the NewGRF could use that value to alter the profits accordingly
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20:18<Eddi|zuHause>when making such interfaces, remember that you cannot force the player to use both the GS and the matching NewGRF at the same time
20:19-!-shirish__ [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:19<UukGoblin>oh... I hoped they could depend on each other or something
20:19<Samu>omg, this is harder than i anticipated
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not even sure GS can detect whether a specific NewGRF is loaded
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: what else is new?
20:21<Samu>must do this for buoys, oilfield station, objects, oil rig industry, dock water tile, lock upper and lower tiles, ship depot north and south tiles.
20:21<Samu>and i hope i'm not forgetting anything
20:22<Samu>i dont know which objects can be built on water
20:22<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, well, I'd put it in a description. If someone used only the NewGRF, then it could detect that because all gs_specifics would be set to zero; if someone only used the GS then all the gs_specific values would simply be ignored
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>UukGoblin: and if someone made a GS which reuses the gs_specific for something entirely unrelated?
20:23<Samu>what are objects other than transmitters and lighthouse?
20:23<UukGoblin>Eddi|zuHause, hm. Well, then the two would be incompatible.
20:24<chillcore>that is 7 patchies an not 1 patch samu?
20:24<Samu>yes, but objects are confusing me, I dont know of any object that can be placed on water
20:24<chillcore>the stuff you forfgot will most likely pop up as you go
20:24<UukGoblin>a good dependency resolution mechanism would be nice to have, but that's currently out of scope for me ;-) This ASOIF scenario I'm playing, for instance, is spouting errors to me already about a missing AI
20:25<Samu>yet they have waterclasses
20:25<chillcore>marico? samu
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: objects can be anything the NewGRF wishes. wind turbines, seashore decorations, fake airport tiles, ...
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>opengfx+landscape has some
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>loads of others i'm sure
20:26<Samu>oh, so great, how could i deal with something I don't hae control of
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>you specify the parts that you do have control over
20:29<Samu>i am worried those newgrfs will screw things
20:29<chillcore>also they are all "just" objects with a different look ... don't complicate stuffs more then you have to
20:30<Samu>if you build those objects on canals that were built on rivers, what exactly can i do about it?
20:33-!-tulsy [5ec0ed09@] has quit [Quit: - A hand crafted IRC client]
20:34<Samu>let me look at MakeObject, if such thing exists
20:34<chillcore>why would you do anything different then what you do with canals?
20:35-!-tulsy [5ec0ed09@] has joined #openttd
20:35<chillcore>if they do not do that already now ...
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20:41<Samu>they don't :(
20:41<Samu>i must be doing this wrong
20:43<Samu>when i build a ship depot on a canal that was built on a river, the information that the canal was built on a river is gone
20:43<Samu>and for everything else, the same
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20:45<Sylf>when you build a canal on a river, isn't that same thing as demolishing the river first and building canal in its place? or is that different on some recent patch?
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>so, what exactly have you been doing for the last few months?
20:54<Samu>upon demolishing
20:54<Samu>brb, i must make sure what's happening
20:54<Samu>something is missing in-between
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20:58<Samu>i built an object from some newgrf on a canal built on river, the information was kept
20:59<Samu>then i demolished the object, the information is gone
20:59<Samu>for ship depot and dock it's workign differently
20:59<Samu>i build ship depot or dock on canal built on river, the information is gone already
21:00<Samu>demolishing afterwards won't matter, it's already broken
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>great. now you know the two exact places where you need to fix things
21:03<Samu>industry tile behaves the same
21:03<Samu>as ship depot/dock
21:04<Samu>only object appears to be difffernts
21:04-!-liq3 [] has joined #openttd
21:08<chillcore>wiki is up so most likely django out for a walk again?
21:09<chillcore>^^^ TrueBrain
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>twice in two days of operation?
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>not a good record :p
21:14<Compu>openttd website is down again
21:14<ST2>django seems outdauted (the movie), and D is mute xD
21:15<ST2>but it's wierd, 2 nights in a row
21:15<Compu>is there an android version of openttd?
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>the term is "silent" :p
21:15<ST2>note: night where I am ^^
21:15<ST2>@Eddi: correct, "silent" :P
21:15<ST2>my mistake ^^
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>Compu: yes. there is an inofficial port in the forum
21:16<NGC3982>Do we have any mirror to the latest stable version?
21:16*NGC3982 wants to play something while waiting for windows update.
21:16<ST2>it's 1.4.4
21:17<ST2>np :)
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21:40<chillcore>nappy time
21:41<chillcore>good nght all o/
21:41<ST2>so, gn8 time ^^
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21:48<UukGoblin>can there only be one active GS?
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it'd be a compatibility nightmare
21:51<UukGoblin>oh, that solves a lot of the compatibility problems we've talked about earlier ;-)
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>not really, but whatever...
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you want your code to be reusable by other scripts, make a library instead
21:53<UukGoblin>so, out of curiosity, what's a scenario?
21:53-!-glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>basically, a savegame with prebuilt infrastructure
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22:02<UukGoblin> <- getting this when trying to compile firs
22:03<UukGoblin>"Unrecognized identifier 'ANIM' encountered"
22:08<UukGoblin>probably nml is too old, I have 0.3.1
22:15<Samu>anyone around?
22:15<Samu>i was able to fix for the lock
22:16<Samu>but i still fail for ship depot
22:16<NGC3982>I'm around, but i don't seem to be able to support you.
22:16<NGC3982>I'm completely stunned at the momen
22:17<NGC3982>Just installed my new PC. It's a i5 GTX960 PC with 16GB ram and a SSD.
22:17<NGC3982>I came from HP dual-core laptops with 1GB of RAM
22:17<NGC3982>The difference is so awesome i can barely handle it.
22:18<Samu>nice system
22:18<UukGoblin>should be pretty fast, yeah :-)
22:18<NGC3982>Simply using explorer is a breeze
22:18<UukGoblin>1GB of RAM... ouch!
22:19*NGC3982 notices wupdate has taken an hour.
22:21<Samu>grrr why i fail
22:21*ST2 thinks NGC3982 will notice that every 2nd tuesday's... every month
22:22<ST2>it's when MS releases updates
22:23<ST2>Samu, both of our test servers are now on RC1
22:24<ST2>none with code changes you suggested, on server side
22:24<Samu>i can't download rc1 yet
22:24<Samu>504 Gateway Time-out
22:24<ST2>you can
22:25<ST2>actually, you can download ALL OpenTTD versions
22:25<ST2>you need the correct mirror ^^
22:26<ST2>hope it helps ^^
22:26<Samu>building a ship depot now maintains the canal on river information
22:26<Samu>but when i remove ship depot... boom, information is gone
22:26<Samu>what is wrong
22:27<Samu>i have the code there already
22:27<ST2>I understand your view, but look at me as the person that made a patch to have maps with only land
22:27<Samu>if it worked for the lock tiles, why wouldn't it work
22:27<ST2>no water
22:27<Samu>for ship depot :(
22:29<ST2>Samu, link above worked? there you can get any version you want ^^
22:30<Samu>im a bit busy trying to figure out this thing
22:31<Samu>yes that link works
22:33<Samu>grr why u no work
22:34<Samu>i made this so far
22:35<UukGoblin>gawd I hate python and its whitespace sensitivity
22:35<ST2>well, someone suggested you to make simpliest things - you're trying to touch the core without knowing the basics of C++, never gets easier :S
22:36<ST2>was to Samu ^^
22:37<ST2>just in case UukGoblin missunderstanding my line :)
22:37<Samu>this code works for building ship depot
22:37<Samu>fails for removing ship depot
22:38<Samu>works for building canal
22:38<Samu>works for removing canal
22:38<Samu>works for building lock
22:38<UukGoblin>ST2, hah. Actually, touching the C++ core is easier for me than faffing around with pypnml ;-)
22:38<Samu>works for removing lock
22:38<Samu>now i don't get why it is failing for removing ship depot :(
22:38<Samu>and i am out of time today
22:38<UukGoblin>but I can totally understand people who feel the opposite ;-)
22:39<ST2>UukGoblin: I guess yes, but my reply appeared right after yours... was only to dnt confuse things xD
22:39<UukGoblin>yeah yeah, I know ;-)
22:39<UukGoblin>confusion avoided.
22:40<ST2>because Samu is messing with ttd code without understanding the basics
22:40<UukGoblin>yup, figured. I am too, actually ;-)
22:40<ST2>and that leads to the massive questions arouns
22:41<ST2>well, I'm not a programmer
22:41<Samu>works for building object
22:41<Samu>fails for removing object
22:41<Samu>fails for building dock, fails for removing dock
22:41<Samu>fails for building industry, fails for removing industry
22:41<Samu>because yeah... i haven't finished
22:42<ST2>Samu: keep on trying :)
22:42<Samu>now i'm off to bed, cyas later
22:42-!-Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:43<UukGoblin>so it's like python generates python, which then generates pnml, which is then compiled by python to nml, which is finally compiled to grf. I only need to learn all of these steps ;-)
22:44<UukGoblin>or maybe I'll bother some of you guys here: how would I add a 'profit' callback to one of the cargos in firs/src/cargos/ ?
22:44<ST2>personally, I love the person that finds a needle in a haystack and starts asking entire town why was it here ^^
22:44<ST2>sorry, was describing Samu xD
22:44<UukGoblin>hehe ;-)
22:45<ST2>btw, I'm not a GS expert
22:45<ST2>but saw some chat's - query All industries
22:45<ST2>of all companies
22:46<UukGoblin>I didn't even get to the GS part yet
22:46<ST2>won't create a GS massive usage
22:46<UukGoblin>ST2, nah, my current plan is a bit different
22:47<UukGoblin>I decided the original approach like with CashDrainGS isn't too nice as it won't display per-vehicle profits properly
22:47<ST2>well, my 1st attempt to create a global Cargo server was monitoring that
22:47<UukGoblin>ST2, so now I'll just query all the industries for all cargoes at the beginning, and just update some values whenever a new industry is created, from the GS
22:48<ST2>because NoGo functions only gives you some info quarterly
22:48<UukGoblin>I've just patched the core to provide the extra profit information to the NewGRF callbacks and I'm trying to test that (without knowing much about NewGRFs;-)
22:49<ST2>a combination of newgrf's and a GS?
22:49<ST2>but that GS will work with others newgrf's?
22:49<UukGoblin>because I found a NewGRF is the only way I could hook into the income calculation at the right place
22:49<ST2>or vice-versa
22:50<UukGoblin>ST2, like Eddi|zuHause mentioned, compatibility might be a problem
22:50<UukGoblin>so the safe answer for now is "no" :-)
22:51<ST2>well, all servers I created in my community, with GS's I added, created, changed, etc... works in ALL map types and newgrf's
22:51<ST2>and that's the way
22:52<ST2>you can't make them newgrf specific
22:52<UukGoblin>I guess I couuld make the GS part into a library
22:52<UukGoblin>GS code only needs to be run on industry creation, and shouldn't really affect any part of the game, as it'll only update some new fields that aren't used by anyone else [yet]
22:53<UukGoblin>NewGRF code has to be specific, because, well, it depends on the defined cargoes a lot
22:53<ST2>industry creation includes the mapgen?
22:53<UukGoblin>as I'm effectively changing the delivery payment logic
22:54<UukGoblin>ST2, not sure yet how I'll do it... I think I'll leave mapgen alone, and just scan all created industries somewhere near ::Start() or sth
22:54<ST2>many GS's mess with mapgen
22:55<ST2>specially some CB's
22:55<UukGoblin>actually... the new field is per STATION, not industry... so scratch that, I'll only need to run code when a station is created (or an industry changes)
22:55<UukGoblin>so won't do anything at the beginning, when there are no stations
22:56<ST2>if you catch station name, dnt forget the "old" cheat of station walking ^^
22:57<ST2>hopefully, not new to you, right?
22:57<UukGoblin>new indeed
22:57<UukGoblin>but I think I'll be iterating via ID
22:57<ST2>well, so you'll have a bad time
22:58<ST2>players know how to go around many things
22:58<UukGoblin>damn them ;-)
22:58<ST2>and if you create a new thing... you must be prepared for that
22:58<ST2>and think on how to avoid them
22:58<UukGoblin>we'll see how it goes
22:59<UukGoblin>I don't really have time to do any of this
22:59<UukGoblin>but it's fun!
22:59<ST2>that's the spirit :)
23:00<ST2>"station walking" allows you to deliver water to a town, when a station is 300 tiles away, with a max spread of 7
23:00<ST2>it's tricky :P
23:01<UukGoblin>by building a set of connected stations or sth?
23:01<ST2>well, not knowing the concept of "station walking", means that you must get more time ingames
23:02<ST2>not easy to explain
23:02<ST2>but the cheat name says it all ^^
23:02<UukGoblin>but the more time I spend in game, the more baffled I get by the profit calculation
23:03<ST2>that's something you have to measure then
23:03<UukGoblin>I see an iron ore next to a steel mill, so what do I do? I try to find another iron ore somewhere on another corner of the map to maximize profit
23:03<UukGoblin>it's... weird
23:04<ST2>well, OpenTTD is a deliver game
23:04-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
23:04<ST2>and as all deliver companies, paid by the distance
23:04<ST2>hey luaduck :)
23:04<ST2>morning :)
23:05<UukGoblin>who would pay $10 000 to buy imported apples from argentina when you can get them locally for $10 ;-)
23:06<ST2>UukGoblin, read above
23:06<UukGoblin>yeah, I think I'm familiar with the station walking concept from in-game, I've used it a couple of times, just didn't call it that
23:06<UukGoblin>ST2, paying by the distance is good, yes
23:07<UukGoblin>ST2, it's just that industries should be reluctant to pay for a long distance transfer when the resource is available for less money locally
23:07<ST2>closer is not always cheaper
23:07<UukGoblin>i.e. it shouldn't be profitable for a transport company to deliver from china when the same thing can be bought in your town
23:07<ST2>hopefully real life told you that too
23:08<UukGoblin>it's not
23:08<ST2>so, why messing with that in a fucking game?
23:08<UukGoblin>but with the current cost calculation, closer is ALWAYS less profitable
23:09<ST2>OpenTTD already have subsidies, wich are almost on short deliveris
23:09<ST2>that's your idea, right?
23:09<UukGoblin>subsidies only last a year or so, don't they
23:10<ST2>want subsidies for a lifetime?
23:10<UukGoblin>not usable when you're designing a transportation network that should last for years
23:10<luaduck>mornin' ST2
23:10<UukGoblin>hrm, not quite ;-) I want the payments to make some more sense ;-)
23:11<UukGoblin>subsidies... are fine as they are, yes, they could be made to last longer perhaps
23:11<ST2>" transportation network" means long distance deliveries
23:11<ST2>unless you're trully bad in OpenTTD
23:11<UukGoblin>I want long distance deliveries
23:12<UukGoblin>if the only coal mine is at the other end of the map for a given power plant, then it should be totally as profitable as it is now for that route to pay a lot for the delivery
23:12<ST2>and a 100K GBP allows you to deliver long enough to buy a new train... on 1st delivery
23:13<ST2>even on hard servers (there's some online)
23:13<ST2>so, between "[03:11:36] <UukGoblin> I want long distance deliveries"
23:14<ST2>and your goal of changing GS's and newgrf's
23:14<ST2>what's your idea?
23:15<UukGoblin>ST2, decrease the profit of the delivery by an amount proportional to the distance to the closest resource-producing facility
23:15<UukGoblin>more or less
23:15<UukGoblin>well unless the goods come from that facility
23:15<ST2>that's called CDist
23:15<UukGoblin>I haven't figured out the exact maths yet
23:16<UukGoblin>it will take some testing until I come up with the perfect formula
23:16<ST2>wich is on 1.4.4
23:17<UukGoblin>CDist? tell more, google doesn't get it well
23:17<ST2>check OpenTTD changelogs
23:18<UukGoblin> ? I only see a bunch of fixes, nothing about CDist
23:19<UukGoblin> ?
23:20<UukGoblin>looks nice, but not what I mean :-)
23:20<ST2>introduced in 1.4.0
23:21<ST2>strange that you didn't knew it
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23:21<UukGoblin>dude, I'm not some openttd guru
23:21<ST2>neither am I
23:21<UukGoblin>I played a bit of original TTD, I played a bit of OpenTTD, I'm good with C and C++, that's all :-)
23:21<ST2>again... and?
23:21<UukGoblin>so don't expect me to know every change in every version ;-)
23:22<ST2>so, dnt expect ppl explain each step on public releases
23:22<ST2>is that acceptable too?
23:23<UukGoblin>I don't expect people to explain everything
23:23<ST2>so, read them
23:23<UukGoblin>if I have a question I try to find the solution online and if it's problematic I ask here
23:24<ST2>it's the correct place
23:24<ST2>but you need to be aware of the game changes
23:24<UukGoblin>(or sometimes I just ask or bitch about something without really checking, but it's not like I expect an answer)
23:25<UukGoblin>I can't be aware of all the changes that are happening
23:25<ST2>you can
23:25<UukGoblin>I'm not a openttd maintainer
23:25<ST2>check channel topic
23:26<ST2>so, yes, you can
23:26<UukGoblin>well, yes, I theoretically can
23:26<UukGoblin>if I'm interested enough I'll check it
23:28<UukGoblin>(by saying "I can't be aware" I meant more like "don't expect me to be aware")
23:28<ST2>note: I'm not saying this isn't the correct channel to make questions - I only say: make the correct questions, if you're really interested
23:28<ST2>because there's many others solutions
23:29<ST2>and the "if I'm interested enough I'll check it" says all
23:29<UukGoblin>I should probably mention that I also like hacking things
23:29<ST2>includes the answers you'll get :P
23:30<UukGoblin>nah, python-generated NML docs won't really be in openttd's changelogs ;-)
23:30<ST2>but will be in specific changelogs
23:31<UukGoblin>and that's quite a lot of unstructured text to dig through for a newbie
23:31<ST2>well, someone digging NML, not a newbie
23:32<UukGoblin>I only learned about NML today
23:32<ST2>a newbie not even understands C++
23:32<UukGoblin>I'm an openttd-newbie, not C++-newbie :-)
23:33<UukGoblin>no? what?
23:34<ST2>well, explore how it works around
23:34<UukGoblin>I feel very comfortable exploring the C++ code, it's actually quite good
23:34<UukGoblin>very well written, I would say
23:35<UukGoblin>I didn't really have to ask a single question to figure out how to implement my change
23:35<ST2>I expected that also, unless won't be public ^^
23:36<ST2>I must say, I'm a misery in C++, Squirrel, C, C# or whatever
23:36<UukGoblin>I just need some help with this pnml stuff that firs uses, it's not as nicely documented and not so straightforward
23:36<ST2>but I'm good on reading ppl intentions :D
23:38<UukGoblin>I think I just came up with an algorithm
23:39<UukGoblin>reduce the profit made when delivering cargo proportionally by the difference of the delivery distance minus the distance of closest alternative supply
23:39<ST2>well, where can I get latest FIRS release
23:39<UukGoblin>so when you're delivering from the closest industry, the reduction will be 0%, so you'll get the full amount
23:40<ST2>UukGoblin, can you help me?
23:40<UukGoblin>surprising you should ask that
23:40<UukGoblin>oh, you're making some sort of point I guess
23:41<UukGoblin>ST2, well then, the first google result of 'openttd firs' gives you a page describing how to get it
23:41<ST2>I have 8 FIRS here, no idea what was the last one :S
23:41<UukGoblin>1.4.3 is the last one :-]
23:42<ST2>I needed the last one released on bananas
23:42<ST2>is that the one?
23:42<UukGoblin>can't help you there, dunno what bananas are
23:42<UukGoblin>(well unless you mean the fruit, but you don't)
23:43<ST2>wich is down now
23:43<UukGoblin>ah, now I see
23:43<ST2>hopefully, with time, you'll know how to work with it
23:44<ST2>so, 1.4.3 is used in our FIRS servers
23:44<ST2>what you wanted to chabge there?
23:44<UukGoblin>I want to add a 'profit' callback to all the cargos
23:45<ST2>I want many things too, you know?!
23:46<UukGoblin>yeah well then get them
23:46<UukGoblin>I'm working on it as we speak ;-)
23:47<ST2>if you make a server to test it, make it compatible with 1.5.0-RC1
23:47<UukGoblin>it's just not as easy for me digging through unfamiliar python code which generates unfamiliar nml code which generates unfamiliar grf code
23:47<UukGoblin>I'm mostly a single-player guy with openttd
23:48<ST2>no words
23:48<UukGoblin>making it work with one version on my one machine will make me happy
23:48<UukGoblin>if I feel nice I might share the stuff with others too :->
---Logclosed Thu Mar 19 00:00:58 2015