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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-03-31

---Logopened Tue Mar 31 00:00:14 2015
00:06<chillcore>this going to be a few patches
00:08<chillcore>scenario editor
00:08<chillcore>magic bulldozer
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00:09<chillcore>^^^ setting removing flags properly
00:13<Flygon>Having a Civ II style map WOULD be very neat
00:13<Flygon>As in
00:13<Flygon>Diamond shaped
00:13<Flygon>But at the top and bottom of the map, it's serrated
00:14<Flygon>And the left and right are looping scrolling
00:14<Flygon>Of course, modifying pathfinding would be fun
00:14<Flygon>In fact
00:14<chillcore>not only that
00:14<Flygon>Civ II's got pathfinding problems going from, say
00:14<Flygon>23,63 through to 23,0
00:14<Flygon>Instead of going one square over
00:15<Flygon>It'll literally go the opposite direction...
00:15<Flygon>The pathfinder is borked
00:15<chillcore>huhu continue ...
00:15<Flygon>Nah, I'm finished
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00:15<chillcore>oh no it is not ;)
00:15<chillcore>cheating ... bigtime
00:15*Flygon scratches head
00:15<Flygon>They fixed the bug in Alpha Centauri
00:16<chillcore>say I pick up coal at 12, 2047
00:16<chillcore>and take it to 12, 1
00:16<chillcore>thatis 2 tiles
00:16<chillcore>but payout?
00:16<Flygon>I can see how more than pathfinding would need to be completely rewritten
00:16<chillcore>ye that too
00:17<Flygon>It WOULD be very neat
00:17<chillcore>yes ... there is an old patch somewhere
00:18<Flygon>Another neato one would be Alpha Centauri style height levels, but... that's also completely changing the entire game and needing a 3D renderer :b
00:18<Flygon>Then again, I'm completely insane
00:18<chillcore>then there is industries being built half on one side and half on the other?
00:18<chillcore>it is
00:19<Flygon>I'm the sort of guy that can see addtional gameplay depth in... well
00:19<Flygon>Having heightmaps for under the water
00:19<Flygon>Y'know, for making the distinction between river and ocean ships distinct
00:19<chillcore>hehe that is one of andy's ponys, and yours too it seems
00:20<chillcore>andy likes ponies
00:20<Flygon>I got sick of riding horses
00:20<Flygon>Rode them for 15 years
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00:20<Flygon>Then again
00:21<Flygon>I'm just the guy that also wants subterranian play too :B
00:21<Flygon>And having completely 'flat' water makes no sense if that ever becomes a thing
00:21<chillcore>if you're on them all the time I can imagine it gets tiresome
00:22<chillcore>needs additional map layers
00:22<chillcore>there was a patch for that too
00:22<Flygon>But it wasn't really a 'complete' patch
00:23<Flygon>I imagine more...
00:23<Flygon>Having a full blown x,y,z system, fully 3D
00:23<Flygon>Instead of z being.... well, what it is now
00:23<chillcore>'just' offsets
00:23<Flygon>Though, OpenTTD still has a more advanced map system than Ragnarok Online
00:23<Flygon>Ragnarok Online manages to somehow have 2D-only maps
00:24<Flygon>In a game that's near 100% 3D...
00:24<Flygon>So you can only move on x,y coords
00:24<Flygon>The z just exists to set how HIGH the character/object is on a specific tile...
00:24<Flygon>It's really stupid
00:24<Flygon>So you, like
00:24<Flygon>Can't create a walkable bridge over a walkable path
00:25<Flygon>It's basically the exact same problem DooM has
00:25<chillcore>so 2.5D a 3D engine
00:25<chillcore>hmm doom has that too?
00:25<chillcore>I can not remember exactly
00:25<Flygon>Yeah. DooM's internal maps are also completely 2D
00:26<Flygon>The z axis is purely just for show
00:26<Flygon>Literally, for show
00:26<chillcore>I need a new Xbox 360 to test melted it somehow
00:26<Flygon>btw, anyone here screaming in their head that I'm wrong in some aspects
00:26<Flygon>PLEASE correct me
00:27<chillcore>I really can not remember f I ever walked under a walkable surface
00:27<Flygon>In DooM?
00:27<Flygon>You didn't
00:27<Flygon>So, yeah
00:28<Flygon>Ragnarok Online works the same way as DooM, except it's an MMORPG with an actual 3D renderer
00:28<Flygon>(and actually really pretty for a 2001-2003 era game... shame it's aged poorly. Also the 3D renderer used a LOT of tricks that broke on newer graphics card)
00:29<Flygon>(such as trying to use the graphics card equivilant of hscroll to shift the screen left and right at specific scanlines to simulate hallucinating without any rendering time required)
00:30<Flygon>(but newer graphics cards required this, so they had to softrender this... this brings even modern cards to their knees because the softrender is just very inefficient)
00:30<chillcore>hmm ok
00:30<Flygon>(so, yeah. The game used a graphics rendering technique that ended up making the game run better on older hardware than newer hardware. Because, fuck sanity. :D)
00:31<chillcore>ever been in club doom?
00:31<chillcore>I liked that level
00:31<Flygon>About to take a shower, tho
00:31<chillcore>see ya later then ;)
00:32<Flygon>Arl be, like
00:32<Flygon>30 minutes at worst
00:33<chillcore>no rush ... :P
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01:11<chillcore>that was 32 mins :(
01:24<Flygon>Close nuf!
01:24<Eddi|zuHause>snow snow snow snow lovely snow
01:25<Flygon>Stop reminding me that Winter is coming up
01:26<chillcore>I like snow ... from behind a window
01:26<chillcore>wind is blowing your way Eddi|zuHause so I'm good
01:26<Eddi|zuHause>well it barely snowed during the winter.
01:27<Eddi|zuHause>must be an early april fools
01:27<Eddi|zuHause>they call it april weather for a reason
01:28<chillcore>been a long time I saw snow i may
01:32<chillcore>bbl ... disaster has happened
01:32<chillcore>out of coffee
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01:51<chillcore>hmm no coffee ... my friendly shopkeeper is sleeping in
02:01<chillcore>error for not being able to destroy river: "Oh no you didn't!" ?
02:01<chillcore>still costs money
02:01<chillcore>blasting team is hungry
02:02<chillcore>"just can not clear this area" will do
02:09<chillcore>Also I need to rewrite this from scracth ... this logic is flawed
02:12<V453000>logic is borken! :D
02:12<V453000>aka life without coffee does not make sense
02:18<chillcore>indeed ... I was thinking yesterday I have enough I can wait ... can still make some and then get fresh ...
02:18<chillcore>but then I could not sleep no more
02:18<chillcore>^^^ the coffee part
02:21<chillcore>whoppa another 7 lines in the bin
02:22<chillcore>and that is the old version I am dealing with ...
02:22<chillcore>smaller then current
02:23<V453000>I never drink coffee, it makes my head hurt
02:23<V453000>tea is fine, just the huge dose of caffeine doesnt make me any good
02:23<V453000>caffeine-free coffee is fine
02:24<V453000> this works instead
02:24<chillcore>then why drink coffee?
02:24<chillcore>except for the taste perhaps
02:25<chillcore>if only it tasted good ...
02:25<V453000>yeah for the taste
02:25<V453000>I drink it like once per month or two, so it isnt like I drink it daily :P
02:26<V453000>just if I happen to be in a restaurant and they have a caffeine-free coffee ... which isnt often at all :D
02:27<chillcore>I run on coffee and sigs ... sadly enough
02:27<chillcore>I can deal with not eating two days ... but
02:28<V453000>I have a good friend who did that too
02:29<V453000>ended up in asylum ;(
02:29<V453000>just for half a year though XD
02:29<chillcore>I just forget to eat sometimes ... hehe
02:30<chillcore>then at 3 AM I go damn ... forgot again
02:30<chillcore>asylum is no place for me ... I'd drive peeps nuts
02:30<chillcore> ... oh wait
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02:42<chillcore>if trying to terraform a plain river tile and a canal tile on river at the same time ... what should it complain about? river or canal? tiles are not the same tile
02:42<chillcore>currently it complains about the river
02:43<chillcore>and since there is a river under the canal ...
02:43<chillcore>hmm ...
02:43<chillcore>river wins ...
02:43<chillcore>thanks for reading xD
02:44<chillcore>taking into accoutn which tile was selected first would be taking it too far I guess
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03:04<chillcore>hmm I can not know if a canal had a river under it in an old savegame right?
03:05<chillcore>if that is true then there is no point in bumping savegame needlesly ...
03:05<chillcore>yay more less code
03:06<chillcore>and no need to loop over the map at mapgen neither since we set the bit when a canal is built over a river
03:06<chillcore>all the rest works fine
03:06<chillcore>for as far as I can see
03:07<chillcore>scenario is do whatever
03:07<chillcore>magic bulldozer works ...
03:08<chillcore>maybe just unset the bit when removing canal from river
03:08<chillcore>or rather set it to 0
03:09<chillcore>anyone can think of something that i did not cover ?
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03:26<Supercheese>what sorts of interactions happen when a canal is placed on a river, then a dock/buoy/newobject on that canal?
03:26<Supercheese>I believe the desired behavior would be clear dock/buoy/object -> regular empty canal. Clear canal -> back to river.
03:27<chillcore>you put them on as per usual
03:27<chillcore>when you bomb the object is removed as per usual
03:27<chillcore>except for canal ... the river stays now
03:27<Supercheese>all seems right then
03:27<chillcore>when trying to terraform a river you get nope
03:28<Supercheese>since the bit is independent of the other stuff built on the canal eh
03:28<chillcore>when trying to bomb same no dice untill magic bomb is on
03:28<chillcore>ah when building canal a river bit is set
03:28<chillcore>which is not yet removed when removing the canal
03:29<chillcore>that is about it ...
03:29<Supercheese>seems so :)
03:29<chillcore>can't think of anything esle that would be needed
03:30<chillcore>going to do this remove bit part ... fold and get me that coffee
03:30<chillcore>doing something completely different always seems to help
03:30<chillcore>in my case that is
03:31<chillcore>and bombing rivers still costs 10000
03:32<chillcore>eventhought they remain in place ... just like sea
03:32<chillcore>play with fireworks and you pay for it
03:33<Supercheese>some people just want to watch the world burn
03:33<supermop>wait so you are doing the river stuff now chill?
03:34<chillcore>ye ...
03:34<chillcore>just the permanent rivers
03:34<chillcore>samu can has all the rest of the fun :P
03:35<supermop>off to practice japanese
03:35<chillcore>see ya o/
03:41<chillcore>k off to get coffee ... bbl
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04:32<chillcore><Supercheese> since the bit is independent of the other stuff built on the canal eh <- actually in case of building canal on river the tile becomes cnal and frogets it was a river
04:32<chillcore>this is not the case in all cases ;)
04:32<chillcore>missed that line ... just saw it while re-reading
04:32<Supercheese>Hm, well, as long as It Just Works™
04:32<chillcore>all other cases*
04:33<chillcore>ye just wanted to clarify ;)
04:33<chillcore>I still need to spit this patch because doing two things
04:33<chillcore>and the docs
04:34<chillcore>maybe change which bit is used
04:34<chillcore>pretty much done
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05:47<chillcore>hmm 10 lines left and I still need to split this in three patches ...
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06:45<supermop>modelling victorian steel aarch sheds
06:45<supermop>not sure if i want to follow the ogfx style with the little sloped roof on the side next to the arch
06:48<V453000>answer is no? :P
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07:22<supermop>damn brick arches
07:22<supermop>cant map a brick texture into an arch
07:22<supermop>so going to model the arch brick by brick
07:28<V453000>well you need to have many vertices in the arch anyway
07:28<V453000>so why not make it a stepped arch
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07:54<supermop>doesn't fit the feel of the graphics nor the style of victorian train sheds
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07:54<supermop>although orginal graphics have no brick as i recall
07:57<supermop>so maybe i'll lose the brick walls
08:00<V453000>I think you are limiting yourself too much for no real reason
08:04<supermop>no fun without constraints
08:05<supermop>i actually have a hard time creating at all witout some constraints even if artificial
08:08<supermop>ok bed time
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09:19<Samu>hi all, i need clarification about landscape_grid.html
09:19<Samu>what does -inherit- actually mean
09:20<Samu>it's not in the legend
09:22<Samu>it's not too clear from who it inherits from
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09:28<chillcore>It inherits from the ones above?
09:28<chillcore>but don't pin me on that
09:29<chillcore>it just makes sense to not inherit from a different class
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09:42<@planetmaker>the first line of a class defines how it works. Then the other entries for that class inherit the meaning of those bits
09:42<@planetmaker>thus are identical
09:55<Samu>when the oil rig tile that will become a station tile completes construction, a bit is set at m1 bit 7 for tile type industry, then a station is placed at that tile, but this m1 bit 7 is now also on the tile type station. It is inheriting the bit from industry tile type, you see what I mean?
09:55<Samu>it inherited from another class
09:56<Samu>or is this not what inherit means?
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10:26<chillcore>and ther is things happening in trunk that needs looking at the code
10:26<chillcore>the exceptions confirm the rule
10:45<@planetmaker>*confirm ;)
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10:48<chillcore>thanks planetmaker ... I keep messing those two up
11:00<Samu>can't understand a word
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11:05<Samu>i give up, i'll just put a X and be done with it
11:07<Samu>how could, say buoys inherit something from a rail station
11:07<Samu>so confusing
11:11<@Alberth>both are things that can be used as destination of an order
11:14<Samu>ah, it needs to have a use
11:15<Samu>m1 bit 7 for stations isn't being used for anything in the code
11:16<Samu>but it may still be set
11:20<Samu>industry tile type passes this bit to the oilrig station, it's just ... confusing
11:20<Samu>stations don't do anything with it
11:20<Samu>neither industries
11:21<Samu>it's just set to 1...
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11:45<Samu>the IsOilRig function is named so misleadingly
11:46<Samu>IsOilfieldStation would be better
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11:54<chillcore>would be better correct
11:55<chillcore>but people call it oilrig ...
11:57<chillcore>see it as an industry with a built in station ... much simpler
12:00<Samu>the name Oil Rig implies the industry itself
12:01<Samu>Oilfield is the type of station
12:01<Samu>it's being named OilrRig
12:05<chillcore>yeah because it is both samu
12:05<chillcore>and that is what it is called
12:05<chillcore>what do you call a shop?
12:05<Samu>uhm, no, check it ingame
12:06<chillcore>building where goods ares old? or just shop?
12:06<Samu>oil rig is the industry, oilfield is the station
12:06<Samu>in the code it is treating the station as oilrig
12:06<Samu>just a matter of naming
12:08<chillcore>samu: have you decided where you will be storing them river tiles yet?
12:08<chillcore>o/ Terkhen
12:10<Samu>that's actually what I'm currently working on
12:10<Samu>checking if i can move around this bit
12:11<Samu>without impacting the darned oilfield station
12:12<chillcore>you need only 1 single bit ...
12:12<chillcore>to strore the riverstatus
12:12<chillcore>for the rest ... I dunno where your final goal lies
12:16<Samu>trying m1 bit 7 for river
12:16<Samu>which conflicts with m1 bit7 of industry tiles currently
12:17<chillcore>that seems like a plan
12:17<Samu>i am the m1 bit 7 of industry to m1 bit 4
12:18<Samu>but doing so, may or may not conflict with the oilfield station owner
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12:19<Samu>i am moving*
12:20<chillcore>if you're sure it is accesed ... mark it yellow and use another maybe?
12:20<Samu>the owner none sets a 1 in there, and a completed oil rig industry also sets a 1 in there, so far, this "conflict" have an "agreement"
12:20<chillcore>why make your life dificult?
12:21<Samu>for convenience
12:22<@Alberth>interesting definition of convenience :)
12:23<Samu>end-goal convencience: bit 7 for river flag, bit 65 for water class, bit 4 for competed industry, bit 32 for industry construction counter, bit 10 for industry construction stage
12:23<Samu>they're grouped together and related with each other
12:24<Samu>instead of being sparsed in different locations
12:24<Samu>for the station tiles this would be, bit 7 for river flag, bit 65 for water class, bit 43210 for owner
12:24<@Alberth>it hardly matters, you wrap things in an accessor function, and done
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12:44<Samu>in the documentation, do i call it oilrig when referring to the station or oilfield, as this is what's named when gaming?
12:44<Samu>all other references are calling it oilrig, which is a bit misleading in my opinion
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13:02<Samu>i just noticed something
13:03<Samu>this frees a bit
13:03<Samu>i got 4 bits free and they are all in the same position
13:04<Samu>previously I still had 4 bits free, but one was located in a non-convenient way
13:05<Samu>this really simplifies
13:09<Samu>Alberth: what will you guys decide about water being owned by companies? that bug report about objects
13:09<Samu>i really need to know if i can move on to making use of those 4 bits or not
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13:14<Samu>i plan to use them for identifying 16 owners maximum, 15 companies and 1 other depending on the circunstances, so, heading back to my initial project, 1 tile with 2 owners
13:15<@Alberth>if I knew what we would decide, I would have said so
13:15<@Alberth>in other words, I don't know either
13:16<@Alberth>I like the idea of having owner-less water though, just like town-created roads
13:16<frosch123>16 owners is way too little, it must be at least 60
13:16*frosch123 hides
13:17<@Alberth>but apparently we may need 60 owners :p
13:18<frosch123>sorry, i misremembered, 50 is enough
13:18<@Alberth>the more fundamental problem is thus what to do when you add an object to water
13:18<@Alberth>although similar problems may happen when adding objects to land, I guess
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13:23<Samu>I can't think of another way to bring back the original owner of canal tiles for when demolishing ship depots
13:23<Samu>other than storing the canal owner
13:24<Samu>2 owners for the ship depot, one to identify the ship depot ower, other to identify the canal owner
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13:26<Samu>maybe the same is needed for objects
13:26<@planetmaker>don't allow to build on competitor's water?
13:27<Samu>a 2nd owner, for whoever owns debris, rocks, stuff like that
13:27<Samu>and a main owner
13:27<@planetmaker>sounds too complicated to me for a general case
13:28<@planetmaker>mostly one won't need two owners anyway except in cases like depots or road stops
13:29<@planetmaker>and why would I allow someone to build on my canal his wellness beach which just blocks ships, looks somewhat good but does nothing else?
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13:33*andythenorth needs a minion
13:33<andythenorth>offsets :(
13:33<@peter1138>It's just maths.
13:33<@Alberth>and I gave you relative offsets
13:34<andythenorth>but changing offsets for one vehicle borks them for another
13:35<andythenorth>which is sad
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13:35<andythenorth>le sigh
13:36<andythenorth>but none of you notice, right?
13:36<@Alberth>you can't make the offsets independent?
13:36<@Rubidium>we need around a magnitudo of 10 million owners ;)
13:36<andythenorth>articulated vehicles
13:37<andythenorth>getting different lengths to line up
13:37<andythenorth>trams I’ll have to use a different template I think, trams are messed up
13:37<andythenorth>multiple issues to handle
13:37<@Rubidium>minimal transport company is 2 tiles + 1 source/dest -> power(2, floor(8192 / 3))
13:37<andythenorth>I’m pretty certain the \ / views are the wrong length also
13:38<andythenorth>but last time we discussed that, we didn’t know the correct length
13:38<andythenorth>when are we doing a new ottd, in proper 3D?
13:38<andythenorth>this sprite nonsense is dead
13:39<chillcore>ye but please don't use a preexisting engine ...
13:39<chillcore>too much bloatware
13:39<chillcore>all of them
13:39<@Alberth>revive a dead 3d tycoon clone project?
13:39<andythenorth>proper = voxels
13:40<@Alberth>\o/ there are voxels in FreeRCT for many years already
13:40<@Alberth>images are still sprites though :p
13:42<chillcore>hmm you lazy ... XD
13:42<@Alberth>Rubidium: making mmpottd (massive multi player openttd) ?
13:43<chillcore>more then 255? woohoo
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13:43<@Rubidium>Alberth: no, just making sure there are enough owners in the extreme case of a fully built map ;)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27213 trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt (2015-03-31 19:45:16 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 215 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@Alberth>2**floor(8192 / 3) would work
13:48<@Rubidium>Alberth: exactly, that translates to ~7.5, so roughly 10 million
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13:48<Wolf01>hi o/
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13:50<@Alberth>I would expect a much higher number tbh, but 1e8 is fine too
13:50<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:52<@Rubidium>Alberth: why? 8e3 / 3 -> 3e3, 3e3 * 3e3 -> 9e6 -> 1e7
13:53<@Alberth>euhm 2**N != N**2 usually :)
13:53<@Rubidium>oh... that's what you were pointing out
13:56<@Alberth>maybe you used a different power function than I expected
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14:00*chillcore powers up ... nom nom nom
14:03<chillcore>bootjes met choco \o/
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14:07<@Alberth>choco ships :)
14:08<chillcore>lots of iron ;)
14:08<@Alberth>hmm, we don't have chocolate in toyland, even
14:09<chillcore>so sad ...
14:09<chillcore>someone needs to draw brown cows for chocolate milk
14:10<chillcore>model I mean model
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14:19<@Alberth>brown-cream cows? like
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27214 /branches/1.5 (3 files in 2 dirs) (2015-03-31 20:45:30 +0200 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>[1.5] -Backport from trunk:
14:45<@DorpsGek>- Fix: [NewGRF] Add Misc. GRF Feature Flag 6 to enable the second rocky tile set [FS#6260] (r27200)
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14:48<V453000>second rocks rock
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14:51<frosch123>well, if i had known that it would require a misc grf bit, i would likely have rejected the feature :p
14:53<andythenorth>a whole other world of feature requests
14:53-!-FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
14:53<frosch123>don't look at the wiki then :p
14:54<andythenorth>do we have auto-signal yet? :P
14:54<frosch123>we should rename noai to nohuman
14:57<andythenorth>bloody FISH
14:57<andythenorth>still getting downloaded
14:58<frosch123>i saw a screenshot on forums with fish, redfish and squid
14:58<frosch123>you should make 52 more ship sets, so you are unable to use them all at once
14:58<V453000>do it now
14:58<frosch123>that provides them with a choice of what set not to use
14:58<andythenorth>I could make each Squid roster a separate grf eh?
14:59<andythenorth>that would be at least 2
14:59<andythenorth>maybe more
14:59<V453000>1 ship = 1 newgrfs
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15:11<+glx>but silly
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15:27<andythenorth>silly? :o
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15:29<frosch123>today is the last chance to be silly
15:29<frosch123>tomorrow is all serious
15:35<Samu>got to split the landscape_grid where it says canal, river
15:35*chillcore asks for commit rights ... In a really silly voice
15:36<Samu>canal uses one more thing that river does not, can I?
15:36<chillcore>that silly enough for ya?
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15:37<@Alberth>hg init, and you can do all the commits you want :p
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15:38<chillcore>thank you so much ... :bow:
15:38<chillcore>that is all I ever wanted
15:38<Samu>instead of "sea, shore", "canal, river", "shipdepot", it better be split to "sea, shore", "canal", "river", "shipdepot"
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15:39<Samu>what about locks? where are they in all this?
15:39<Samu>they're not in the grid are they?
15:46<andythenorth>I had some April 1 ideas
15:46<andythenorth>but forgot them all
15:46<Samu>ah, they are being generalized as "canal, river"
15:47<Samu>do they actually have random bits? all their parts?
15:49<Samu>just checked, they don't have random bits, m4 = 0, everything in there is cleared
15:50<Samu>be it river, canal
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15:52<chillcore>this one was fun to make ...
15:54<Samu>oh, the 1st of April
15:55<Samu>a day just like the other days
15:55<@Alberth>chillcore: :D
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16:14<DanMacK>Hey all
16:14<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
16:14<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 5 minutes and 5 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
16:15<DanMacK>Perfect timing... lol
16:15<frosch123>as usual :)
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16:25<@Terkhen>good night
16:25<chillcore>read my mind
16:25<chillcore>good night all o/
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17:08<Samu>question when documenting the grid: when to put -inherit- and when to put actual X's or O's or ~'s?
17:10<Samu>for example rail station has got OXXX XXXX, then everything under it has -inherit-
17:11<Samu>but i'm trying to document that docks, buoys and oilfields are to be X-inherit-
17:12<Samu>i can't make up my mind how to expose that
17:12<Samu>turn m1 bit 7 to used status
17:13<Samu>but not for all station types
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17:27<Samu>no one knows?
17:27<Samu>i'm stuck with this for 2 days
17:29<Samu>this is so depressing :(
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18:25<chillcore>good morning interwebz o/
18:26<Samu>i'm depressed atm
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18:54<chillcore>hmm samu ... ?
18:56-!-Pereba_ [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
18:56<chillcore>just read logs ...
18:56<chillcore>maybe try it the easy way ...
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19:05<luaduck>we've made some important decisions at /r/openttd
19:10<chillcore>station spread: \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/
19:21<Samu>i bet you hate me so much to make it a joke
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause>original acceleration? are you serious? (what a question on this date :p)
19:39<chillcore>samu: I was not making it a joke ...
19:40<chillcore>instead of shuffling bits around to make room for your plan ... grab free bits
19:40<chillcore>do your thing
19:40<chillcore>shuffle bits later when yo have a clue what you're doing
19:40<chillcore>^^^ easy way
19:41<chillcore>the past two months or so
19:41<chillcore>^^^ hard way
19:41<Samu>documenting it is the problem
19:41<chillcore>your choice ;)
19:41<Samu>the code is done and working
19:43<chillcore>documenting properly is hard thing to do yes
19:43<Samu>bit shuffling?
19:44<Samu>that part is done, may need testing though
19:44<chillcore>weren't yu going to move things around?
19:44<Samu>yes, i did, now i was documenting it in the grid
19:44<chillcore>I have not been following the past few days sorry ...
19:45<Samu>i didn't post this yet in the forum, because I was trying to document it first
19:45<chillcore>ok ...
19:46<Samu>the reason i'm doing this shuffling is really because of what I'm gonna do next
19:46<Samu>makes it much more easily for what's to come
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20:08<Samu>tomorrow I'll post a proposal for the grid, it seems lacking some details
20:09<Samu>inheritance is too generalized, and not case basis
20:09<Samu>case by case based*
20:24<chillcore>WOOT ... max interwebs speeds increased by 20Mp/s ... no extra charge
20:24<Supercheese>wow, nice
20:25<Supercheese>wish I could do that
20:25<chillcore>hehe I did not do nothing ... automatic
20:25<chillcore>compensation for enabling Fon
20:26<chillcore>my dad used to work for them ... 'we' will go up another 30 in time
20:26<chillcore>to 100
20:26<chillcore>basically I run a hotspot
20:27<chillcore>so wherever I go I have wifi for free
20:27<chillcore>instead of paying for mobile
20:30<Samu>there's some discrepancies that yet end up getting the same values for the attribute m4. Look at MakeSea and MakeShore
20:31<Samu>m4 ends up being = 0
20:31<Samu>by luck I suppose
20:31<Samu>cus MakeSea doesn't change m4 at all, it must have been 0 previously
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20:33<Samu>documenting this in the landscape_grid.html becomes confusing
20:35<Samu>MakeWater, I meant, in place of MakeSea, sorry
20:38<Samu>erm, i'm stupid, MakeWater in place of MakeShore... where's my head at
20:38<chillcore>ask your ISP?
20:38<Samu>compare MakeSea with MakeWater, then also look at MakeCanal and MakeRiver
20:38<chillcore>or look for another one :P
20:39<Samu>canal and river are using random bits
20:39<chillcore>*end advertising*
20:39<chillcore>disclaimer: I have no affiliation except for having access to it
20:40<Samu>my isp is NOS at my other house
20:40<Samu>the damn modem/router/gateway/whatever thing, has a stupid wi-fi for FON stuff
20:41<Samu>public acces for nerds
20:41<Samu>stealing bandwidth or whatever
20:41<Samu>and i just can't do anything about it
20:42<Samu>it's just there... always
20:42<Samu>only thing i can do is turn off the modem
20:42<Samu>no more FON
20:44<Samu>Fon technology is built into NOS wi-fi routers so its subscribers become part of the Fon community "unwillingly" - fixed that for you
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21:15<chillcore>thx for sharing samu
21:17<chillcore>for me disabling is just a click away
21:17<chillcore>as explained in that paper thing
21:22<Samu>it have two different connections
21:22<Samu>behaves like two internet lines in one
21:23<Samu>i can disable wi-fi in one of them, not the other
21:23<Samu>the public one can't be turned off
21:24<Samu>they say it doesn't impact my connection because it's running separate from mine, but I don't know if i can trust that
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21:26<chillcore>it is seperate ... when I connect to my own wifi it goes faster then when I connect to the wifi for the nerds
21:26<chillcore>and my cable goes fasterder even
21:26<chillcore>also my traffic always comes first
21:28<chillcore>but yeah ... pointless discussion
21:28<Samu>dunno about the max speed
21:28<Samu>never really tried using the public one
21:29<chillcore>you should?
21:29<Samu>i tested for my own wifi, it goes to 30 mbps fine
21:30<chillcore>maybe try calling your ISP and ask them how to disable it
21:30<Samu>same as the cable
21:30<Samu>after all, that's what I asked
21:30<Samu>a 30 mbps internet
21:30<chillcore>you can ... but you have no more acces when going places
21:32<Samu>i just don't like the idea of everyone being able to use my internet
21:33<Samu>i'm the one paying for it
21:33<Samu>oh well
21:34<chillcore>that is the thing, they do not use your iternet ... just electricity ... and your modem is on already anyways
21:35<Samu>they force it up on us "at no cost!"
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21:36<chillcore>I guess guessing how it works is easier then looking it up samu
21:37<chillcore>let's talk about something else ;)
21:37<chillcore>hello maxtimbo
21:37<maxtimbo>What's new what's happening?
21:37<chillcore>you joined the channel :P
21:38<maxtimbo>What's proper etiquette for chat introductions these days?
21:38<chillcore>I dunno ... being polite goes a long way
21:38<chillcore>and hello seems fine ;)
21:39<maxtimbo>haha I certainly try my best at that.
21:39<Samu>what's the current revision number?
21:40<maxtimbo>So do ya'll mod trains at all?
21:41<chillcore>some code, some mod trains, some draw stuffs, some talk, others play ...
21:42<chillcore>some ask questions
21:42<maxtimbo>I ask because i'm quasi interested in making a little set using blender. I can't find a base set, though.
21:42<maxtimbo>I can't code...
21:42<maxtimbo>I can write html a little... maybe some java and css
21:43<maxtimbo>but whatever if/else biz this game is based from, I don't understand
21:43<maxtimbo>I would like to, but I simply don't have the time to devote to learning that level of code
21:44<maxtimbo>I suppose I'm the type that ask questions
21:44<chillcore>there is plenty to do ... whatever rocks your boat
21:44<chillcore>for blender stuffs I am not your best souce of information
21:45<chillcore>just ask and someone may answer
21:45<maxtimbo>Yeah... The deeper you get into this game, the more and more that kind of answer becomes apparent.
21:45<chillcore>there is the wiki and openttdcoop
21:46<chillcore>plenty of info there
21:46<chillcore>and the forums
21:46<chillcore>and here too
21:46<maxtimbo>yes and I frequent both of those sites and the forums
21:47<maxtimbo>but the information is so convoluted and difficult to sift through
21:47<maxtimbo>There is so damn much
21:47<chillcore>openttdcop should have some templates
21:47<chillcore>zBase is made with blender
21:47<maxtimbo>I think that this is the hardest part of the game.... hahaha
21:47<chillcore>other sets are available
21:48<maxtimbo>I know. I drew up a height map and I want to build a scenario around it.
21:49<Samu>just posted my patch
21:49<maxtimbo>I drew the Alaska heightmap. I am still playing with it. I want to make a small set of trains based on the Alaska Railroad
21:49<Samu>Canal on River v4 r27214
21:50<Samu>documentation makes it become sized bigger than the code itself...
21:51<Samu>21,7 KB
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21:58<maxtimbo>Strange times at ridgemount high...
21:58<chillcore>maxtimbo: I suggest tat if you have specific question you just ask it ;)
21:59<maxtimbo>ah well, I already asked.
21:59<chillcore>oh ok ... good
21:59<maxtimbo>I can't find a base blender set. I might have missed something though
21:59<maxtimbo>I just switched from web to my client
22:00<maxtimbo>Not worried about it any more...
22:00<chillcore>openttcoop seems the best place to find templates/examples
22:00<chillcore>to me that is
22:01<maxtimbo>Yes, there is some good stuff there....
22:01<maxtimbo>I guess it's just so overwhelming that I have to take a step back for a bit
22:02<maxtimbo>Figure out my direction
22:03<maxtimbo>I can't code. I imagine if I built a base set of trains I could ask the community
22:03<maxtimbo>Is this a good idea?
22:03<chillcore>you could ... but coders in general are thin spread
22:04<Samu>i play lego with the code
22:04<chillcore>or busy already
22:04<Samu>if it works, good, if it doesn't move the piece around :(
22:04<chillcore>not saying it is impossible to find one
22:04<maxtimbo>that's not very encouraging....
22:05<chillcore>if I were in your shoes I'd re-use some code
22:05<chillcore>from an already existing set
22:05<chillcore>but if your sprites are really good usually a coder turns up eventually
22:05<maxtimbo>yeah.... finding that code is difficult in it of itself....
22:06<maxtimbo>fair enough
22:06<chillcore>not trying to discourrage you at all just being realistic
22:06<maxtimbo>Oh no, I like realism
22:06<chillcore>howso hard to find? ... everything on openttcoop is free for re-use
22:07<chillcore>it should be at least as hat is a condition to have it hosted there
22:08<maxtimbo>I don't understand the way grfs work. I can draw pretty well. And when I put my mind to it, I can sculpt well with blender or other 3d tools.
22:09<maxtimbo>I guess my main thing is that I don't have time to code anything
22:09-!-Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:10<maxtimbo>If I could just send a 3d model to someone and have them do all the other business of putting it into the game I would be fine
22:10<maxtimbo>But, realistically, Life is
22:11<maxtimbo>And I'm in school working on an English degree...
22:11<maxtimbo>If this were ten years ago, things would be different
22:12<chillcore>the only one rushing you is you ;)
22:12<chillcore>figure of speech
22:12<chillcore>but yeah
22:14<maxtimbo>an example of work from many years ago:
22:15<maxtimbo>Yeah, I feel ya.
22:15<chillcore>my browser blocks the page sorry ... most likely nothing wrong with it but ... plugins
22:16<maxtimbo>haha bummer.
22:16<maxtimbo>I'll bet no one has looked at that page in a long time
22:17<chillcore>I have more browsers on less important devices ;)
22:17<chillcore>that one creepy dude :P
22:17<maxtimbo>He's a ferengi. star trek....
22:18*chillcore is trekkie
22:18<chillcore>not a fanatic nutcase but yeah
22:18<maxtimbo>well, I might be one of those...
22:19<chillcore>but yeah pretty sweet
22:19<chillcore>you made that from scratch?
22:19<maxtimbo>started with a cube
22:19<maxtimbo>this is from 2006.... nearly ten years ago
22:20<chillcore>very very nice
22:20<maxtimbo>I spent about two weeks of sleepless nights on these
22:20<maxtimbo>more like a year
22:21<maxtimbo>I would love to make trains, just as a hobby
22:21<chillcore>I don't tink you'll have much troubs finding a coder
22:21<maxtimbo>well, thank you
22:22<chillcore>like I said templates go a long way
22:22<chillcore>but it is middle of the night here
22:22<maxtimbo>it will be a year before anything like this comes to fruition
22:22<chillcore>europe that is
22:23<maxtimbo>ah... I've noticed that many people who play this game are from europe or beyond
22:23<chillcore>yeah many not all
22:23<maxtimbo>I have tried to get my friends into this game
22:24<maxtimbo>They always complain about a "learning curve"
22:24<chillcore>I know what you mean
22:25<maxtimbo>Is this game a "smart man's game"?
22:25<chillcore>not at all
22:25<chillcore>but it can be
22:25<maxtimbo>Because I'm pretty dumb
22:25<maxtimbo>but I like this game...
22:25<chillcore>it depends how far you want to take things
22:25<maxtimbo>that is very true
22:25<chillcore>you can silmply transport stuffs from a to b
22:26<maxtimbo>or build logic gates
22:26<chillcore>or you can go crazy poopoo with timetabling and balancing and optimising
22:26<chillcore>and that
22:26<chillcore>or calculators
22:27<maxtimbo>haven't dabled much with timetables...
22:27<chillcore>I think I saw a decently sized memory cell somewhere too
22:27<maxtimbo>can you give me "why to do that"?
22:27<chillcore>yeah best is if you try some simple things
22:28<chillcore>why? because you can :P
22:29<maxtimbo>yeah but... I guess... how?
22:29<maxtimbo>I don't understand timetables...
22:29<maxtimbo>perhaps more research is in order
22:29<chillcore>hmm ... easiest is if you set a route and let it autofill
22:30<chillcore>then disable that and adjust a bit as needed
22:30<chillcore>disable autofill I mean
22:30<maxtimbo>do you dabble with refitting trains at all?
22:30<chillcore>me personally not often
22:30<chillcore>but peeps do
22:31<chillcore>there is no playstyle
22:31<chillcore>there are thousends
22:31<maxtimbo>I feel like my "magnum opus," as it were, will be a self regulating network with trains refitting as needed.
22:32<chillcore>nice goal
22:32<chillcore>the savegames and tutorials on openttcoop might be intersting to you then
22:33<maxtimbo>oh they are
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22:35<maxtimbo>I think I secretly want to make a set of trains and stations that makes a progame from there. Their gameplay is extraordinarily complex
22:36<chillcore>ye kinda
22:37<chillcore>I just start with one mainline and go from there
22:37<chillcore>sometimes changing style of building midgame
22:38<chillcore>but then again I play with the code more then with the game itself
22:38<chillcore>thank you
22:38<chillcore>one of them things I mess up often
22:38<chillcore>besides spelling
22:38<maxtimbo>common mistake
22:39<maxtimbo>spelling is tough and I ignore it. but things like that I will jump in for...
22:39<maxtimbo>the difference between its and it's
22:40<maxtimbo>I admire that, by the way.
22:40<maxtimbo>The code aspect of the game
22:41<chillcore>I just like faffing around
22:41<maxtimbo>I get frustrated with the code.
22:41<maxtimbo>Yeah..... I wish it were that easy for us all
22:41<chillcore>I can't code NewGRF if my life depended on it
22:41<maxtimbo>to "faff" with code
22:42<maxtimbo>I would love to develop diagonal bridges
22:42<maxtimbo>but I think I will be the last voice for that request
22:43<chillcore>there are others that would like that
22:43<chillcore>it is coding it and graphics
22:43<chillcore>and hystery ...
22:43<chillcore>making it work with all old NewGRF
22:44<chillcore>hystery is not a speling error ;)
22:44<chillcore>spelling* hmmm
22:44<maxtimbo>explain hystery...
22:45<chillcore>just a word that replaces 'history' around here
22:45<chillcore>and pretty much that yes
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22:46<maxtimbo>well graphics can't be that hard
22:46<chillcore>coding can be done too
22:46<maxtimbo>then.... why.... not?
22:47<chillcore>modifying all old NewGRF is impossible
22:47<chillcore>also OpenTTD supports the original TTD graphics
22:47<maxtimbo>so nix them or modify
22:47<chillcore>no can do
22:48<chillcore>will not even
22:49<maxtimbo>why not? the players of this game will either modify or other will modify for them.
22:49<chillcore>there is this line we do not cross
22:49<maxtimbo>This is a strong community....
22:49<Flygon>LIKE COMENG
22:49<maxtimbo>how so? I don't understand...
22:50<Flygon>Pronounced Kom-enj, because Aussie English makes no sense :B
22:50<maxtimbo>now I really don't understand...
22:50<chillcore>lisences and us repecting them ... period
22:51<chillcore>modifying original graphics is off limit
22:52<maxtimbo>so the game will remain without some potentially very exciting upgrades.... because "hystery"
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22:53<maxtimbo>that is so disappointing to hear
22:53<chillcore>there are a few topics about copyright on the forums if you're interested to see how the community reacts to that
22:54<maxtimbo>good lord. Is there a summary article?
22:54<chillcore>in general not just the original graphics
22:54<chillcore>not really
22:55<chillcore>but there is plenty of room to be creative
22:55<maxtimbo>Wait, say that again...
22:55<maxtimbo>"in general..."
22:55<chillcore>toyland has animated graphics
22:56<chillcore>if you make a newGRF that does not allow modifying that will be respected
22:56<chillcore>you choose your lisence
22:57<chillcore>allowing it is nice but not required
22:57<maxtimbo>If I understand this correctly; In order to get the features of diagonal bridges....
22:58<maxtimbo>and maybe map rotation...
22:58<maxtimbo>there is a licensing issue that must be overcome?
22:58<chillcore>that or we drop support for all old graphics
22:58<maxtimbo>and the original graphics cannot be modified?
22:59<chillcore>which is unlikely to happen
22:59<chillcore>true the may not
22:59<maxtimbo>no that is not a good idea at all
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22:59<chillcore>if you do so for your personal use, fine I guess
23:00<chillcore>but for it to work for everyone you need to distribute them too
23:01<chillcore>and that is not possible at all
23:01<chillcore>you have them or you don't
23:01<chillcore>the original graphics I mean
23:01<chillcore>even linking to them is a nono
23:02<chillcore>but it works both ways
23:03<chillcore>OpenTTD is GPL v2 and not repecting that will get it removed from wherever it is provided
23:04<chillcore>distributing means providing source on request ... including all changes
23:04<chillcore>if 'your' place is not compattible in terms of license ... tough luck
23:05<chillcore>does not happen often but yeah
23:07<chillcore>all binaries on the forum have source near them
23:08<chillcore>at least hey should have
23:08<chillcore>not having COPYING and not willing to add it will get it removed
23:10<chillcore>it is hard to enforce that if you do not stand by your word when it comes to other peoples lisence
23:10<chillcore>that makes sense?
23:11<maxtimbo>Well, when put into such simplicity as that, than yes.
23:11<maxtimbo>Makes perfect sense
23:12<chillcore>maybe some day someone will make a new 'openttd'
23:12<maxtimbo>ahhh... no
23:12<chillcore>that does not have hystery attached to it
23:12<maxtimbo>someone will buy the game from whomever...
23:13<maxtimbo>and proceed to ruin it
23:13<chillcore>not OpenTDD I promise you that
23:14<maxtimbo>by making it propriety
23:14<maxtimbo>Not gonna lie.
23:14<chillcore>Over my dead body
23:14<maxtimbo>This game is rich.
23:14<chillcore>very rich
23:15<chillcore>in terms of gameplay and stuffs
23:15<maxtimbo>and the term "rich" is left ambiguous purposely
23:15<chillcore>I have no idea on financials
23:15<maxtimbo>no money in this game
23:16<chillcore>servers are sponsored
23:16<chillcore>but no real money to get filthy rich off
23:16<maxtimbo>I have to ask... are you a main developer?
23:17<maxtimbo>who the hell is?
23:17<maxtimbo>I have met many that are big names for this game.
23:17<maxtimbo>V5... for example.
23:17<maxtimbo>but never a main dev
23:18<chillcore>At the moment Rub*dium
23:18<chillcore>don't want to highlight him needlessly
23:19<chillcore>the readme has all names of current and past officila devs
23:19<chillcore>and their roles
23:19<maxtimbo>you're giving me more things to sift through o_o
23:20<maxtimbo>I hate to say it
23:20<maxtimbo>but it must be said
23:20<chillcore>bottom of page
23:21<chillcore>but then still ... OpenTTD is very community driven
23:21<maxtimbo>the biggest problem with this game is sheer scattered brained way of transmitting information
23:22<maxtimbo>I can't seem to ever get a straight answer from anywhere. talking to you is the best I have gotten from 2 years of playing...
23:22<chillcore>you're welcome
23:22<maxtimbo>Thank you, by the way
23:23<maxtimbo>perhaps I view things different.
23:24<chillcore>in what way?
23:24<maxtimbo>I should know better. Openttd is structured much the same way that Linux is
23:25<maxtimbo>I think I desire a main structure. a central ideal. This game does not lend itself to that. this coming from the conversation we just had
23:26<Flygon>I was thinking of an OpenTTD community-shotgun analogy
23:26<Flygon>But I couldn't figure out a way to shoehorn Roger Moore into it
23:26<maxtimbo>Flygon, please elaborate
23:27<Flygon>"OpenTTD's community is like a blast from a shotgun. It goes everywhere and nobody can figure out how to aim at long range."
23:28<Flygon>Then I wanted to add Roger Moore to that somehow
23:28<Flygon>Then I realized that makes no sense
23:28<Flygon>So instead
23:28<Flygon>I'mma just continue painting French Chicks onto my Cintiq
23:29<maxtimbo>His analogy is perfectly valid
23:30<chillcore>maxtimbo: you can do however you like and whatever you want; just do not expect peeps to 'tell' you what to do next
23:30<supermop>using the same batch of bricks on this station is boring, if realistic
23:30<chillcore>you will get plenty of help if you ask for it though
23:30<supermop>the brick material varies color of individual bricks procedurally by some percentage
23:31<maxtimbo>Flygon, maybe think Dick Cheney....
23:31<maxtimbo>chillcore, heard. I will proceed!
23:31<supermop>but all bricks are being handled in this way - creating essentially a random noise camouflage so details in the brickwork get lost at ottd scales and it looks like just a flat slab
23:32<chillcore>looking forward to seeing them proceeding maxtimbo ;)
23:33<supermop>making the bricks on the arches and buttress a darker color makes it look better i think
23:33<chillcore>scale up the bricks ?
23:33<chillcore>and yeah shading too
23:34<Flygon>maxtimbo: Nah, it's actually an Umbreon
23:34<Flygon>And I have no effin' idea how to (re)draw this foot
23:34*chillcore coffees
23:36<maxtimbo>Flygon, I just googled that..... pokemon?
23:36<supermop>chillcore: even if the bricks are large enough to see individually, they still blend as noise
23:37<supermop>so im using a different 'clay' for some of the bricks
23:38<chillcore>concrete can has colours too ;)
23:39<maxtimbo>Flygon, may I see what you're working on?
23:39<Flygon>I don't wanna freak you out x3
23:39<maxtimbo>i can't be freaked out
23:39<Flygon>You regular Monosodium Glutamate?
23:40<maxtimbo>I regular the bathroom when it seems fit
23:40<Flygon>Haven't heard of that website
23:40<maxtimbo>oh no...
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23:41<maxtimbo>But I have friends who are into pokeman like that
23:41<Flygon>I have no idea how we're having a comprehensible conversation
23:41<Flygon>But we are :D
23:41<Flygon>/query'd the stream
23:41<Flygon>I like you!
23:41<maxtimbo>I critique.... but I'm not mean
23:41<maxtimbo>let's see it
23:42<Flygon>Still a WIP, tho
23:42<Flygon>And I gotta erase the lines
23:42<Flygon>Anyway, let's carry this to /query
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23:52<supermop>just poured myself a huge glass of tonic water thinking it was carbonated water
23:52<supermop>only way to fix this is pour in gin and start drinking a huge gin and tonic in the middle of the day?
23:53<maxtimbo>supermop, don't know what time it is there, but I'm good and drunk...
23:53<maxtimbo>maybe not..
23:53<supermop>3 pm
23:53<maxtimbo>that drunk
23:54<chillcore>5 am
23:54<maxtimbo>have anything to do today?
23:54<supermop>this station is looking a little too zbase-y
23:54<chillcore>actually 6 but I am weird like that
23:54<maxtimbo>midnight here
23:54<supermop>some freelance work
23:54<supermop>and paradoxically buy beer for the house
23:55<supermop>and maybe start on my taxes?
23:55<supermop>actually i dont remember what zbase station looks like too well
23:56<maxtimbo>that puts you in asia somwhere.....
23:57<maxtimbo>ugh I shouldn't talk anymore
23:57<supermop>quick check reveals that its not quite as bad as z base
23:57<Flygon>You're a fine person
23:57<supermop>but these zbase rivers.....
23:58<chillcore>^^^ what Flygon said
23:58<Flygon>And I have ZERO idea how to draw mouths
23:58<maxtimbo>I have had issues with zbase since I started with it. A love/hate relationship
23:59<supermop>hmm zbase maglev station a bit better than the ogfx one
---Logclosed Wed Apr 01 00:00:15 2015