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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-02

---Logopened Thu Apr 02 00:00:16 2015
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01:17<supermop>i wonder why the TTD monorail is buried in a trench instead of being above grade like the TTO monorail
01:18<Supercheese>Indeed, that always has bothered me
01:18<supermop>the only reason would be to allow a similar platform height to regular rail,
01:18<supermop>otherwise it is just needlessly expensive to dig all of that trench
01:19<supermop>and then its tricky to draw sprites as you need to account for the negative space
01:19<supermop>which means that you must draw a small portion of the neighboring tile's track
01:20<supermop>which then makes it hard to get junctions and corners looking ok
01:20<supermop>drawing the whole beam and clearance above grade would look better
01:21<supermop>but i guess it causes issues with the vehicles effectively being too tall?
01:22<supermop>it looks especially odd on foundations - where the effect is of builing a retaining wall, filling it with dirt, then digging some of the dirt back out
01:25<supermop>try to rectify by changing the standard - and suddenly you have the added problem of two mismatched standards
01:26<supermop>at least almost noone cares about default monorail
01:26<supermop>newgrf wise, so I guess that affords more freedom to mess around and break the rules
01:26<supermop>as far as i know there are no monorail sets out there
01:28<supermop>my dilemma is, entrench the monorail as standard, or raise the platform level for monorail rail type
01:52<chillcore>good morning interwebz o/
01:53<Pikka>supermop, level crossings?
01:54<supermop>the ttd monorail is perhaps even worse for a level crossing than the tto one though Pikka
01:55<supermop>as you car dives into a ditch before smashing into a concrete beam
01:56<supermop>also i think tto forbade monorail level crossings
01:56<supermop>cant recall though
01:58<supermop>i recall someone proposing to amend the base set with little drawbridges at monorail crossings to bridge the trench at one point
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01:58<Pikka>lunar did that :P
01:59<Pikka>don't know if dan ever posted screenshots ;)
01:59<supermop>i never saw any sprites anywhere though, i guess because no one takes monorail seriously enough to put it in railtype sets
01:59<Pikka>monorail was the standard railtype in lunar
02:00<supermop>is that like tto mars?
02:00<Supercheese>there used to be stuff at Pikkawiki
02:01<supermop>at above Tama pic: you need a pretty deep trench if you want at grade monorail to have same platform height as rail
02:01<Pikka>my pineapple monorails look a bit like that
02:01<Pikka>how they deal with level crossings is anyone's guess
02:02<supermop>only one pineapple monorail, no?
02:02<Pikka>only one
02:02<Pikka>should do some more, and/or maglevs...
02:02<Pikka>for the base set if nothing else
02:02<supermop>well suffice to say there is not yet any really newgrf monorail graphic standards
02:02<Pikka>something like that
02:03<supermop>so i guess you or anyone can make it up as they see fit
02:03<supermop>really monorail seems destined to wait in the wings for more flexible bridges
02:03<supermop>then be built primarily elevated
02:04<supermop>i only want it to decorate my cities on thin beamed bridges
02:04<supermop>could fake it with foundations if railtypes supported custom foundations
02:17<supermop>so tracked down anymore gems of queensland tropic modernism Pikka ?
02:18<Pikka>I've got architecture and urban design in brisbane, volumes 1 and 2, from the library. So if that doesn't do it I don't know what will. :)
02:21<supermop>wasting time modelling hopper windows on this station
02:24<supermop>i really like the graphic design on that monorail; just a big stepped gradient orange rectangle
02:36<supermop>also, hi V453000
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04:38<supermop>now im distracting myself with interior renders of this station.....
04:40<supermop>hmmmm what if there was a tool that took ottd saves, then loaded them into a 3d engine or a modeller with parametric functionality, and plopped in blocks of buildings for various buildings used in game, and could render first person vistas of your ottd town
04:40<Supercheese>sounds like Streets of SimCity
04:41<Supercheese>they sort of did that with SimCity saves
04:41<Supercheese>waaaaay old though
04:41<V453000>:0 nice
04:41<Supercheese>then again so is TTD
04:41<V453000>but yeah I guess that isnt utterly nonsense, could be quite cute
04:42<V453000>one of the dudes did a "openttd" animation before already
04:42<Supercheese>TTD is actually older, so nevermind
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04:44<supermop>yeah my neighbor had it back when it was out
04:44<supermop>and simcopter
04:45<Supercheese>I was so young I could never properly play simcopter
04:46<Supercheese>always crashed
04:46<Supercheese>Streets though was easy
04:46<Supercheese>run around in a car, and hey if a building got in your way, equip 4 rocket launchers and destroy it
04:48<Supercheese>dang now I kinda want to play it again
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04:49<supermop>Rails of Open TTD
04:50<supermop>might get motion sickness when your train goes through 'curves' though
04:51<Supercheese>Nah, OTTD supports smooth turning
04:52<Supercheese>only newgrf that does it though is unfinished
04:52<V453000>it is just a huge hack anyway
04:52<Supercheese>yeah moar spritez
04:52<V453000>also I think some of the CS newgrfs already do - or will - copy it and use it as wel
04:52<V453000>ofc for just like 2 vehicles
04:52<Supercheese>45° too large? then make it 15° or whatnot
04:53<Supercheese> <- that one
04:54<@planetmaker>it's not exactly a hack... it's the only sensible use of the turning / train bend variable I can actually think of :)
04:55<V453000>sure pm but the code is just insane
04:55<@planetmaker>though I wonder why it was introduced in the first place... it's ancient :)
04:55<Supercheese>NARS used it for tilt
04:55<Supercheese>TurboTrain can be observed using it
04:55<@planetmaker>uh, I see.
04:55<V453000>I only know about CETS
05:09<Supercheese>Hmm, no custom vehicle effect sprites yet
05:09<Supercheese>just the default ones
05:09<Supercheese>although I guess you could replace one with different graphics
05:11<Supercheese>if you have breakdowns disabled, perhaps you could replace the aircraft breakdown smoke and then use that as a new effect sprite
05:11<Supercheese>oh wait, the callback isn't even allowed for aircraft
05:11<Supercheese>well dang
05:11<chillcore>hmm ... you mean like vehicle specific sparks? that would be a bit overkill?
05:11<chillcore>also o/
05:11<Supercheese>nah, I was brainstorming if the request for aircraft con trails was even possible
05:12<chillcore>ah ok
05:12<Supercheese>since the create_effect callback doesn't work for aircraft, it isn't
05:12<chillcore>we have the smoke but that is it?
05:12<__ln__>chem trails?
05:12<Supercheese>can't do those either
05:13<chillcore>not even replace them by NewGRF?
05:13<chillcore>just asking because me and NewGRF ...
05:14<Supercheese>anyway, time for bed
05:14<chillcore>nighty night ;)
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05:16<chillcore>Just got of the phone ...
05:16<chillcore>finally peeps are taking me seriously
05:17<chillcore>looking at two possibly three jobs
05:17<chillcore>volunteer for starters but yeah
05:18<chillcore>Also an appointment for a seriuos talk about thet public computer safety ...
05:20<chillcore>"we are aware of the prob but we do not know a better way"
05:20<chillcore>I do ... I do :P
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07:31<supermop>what style window/arch is best
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07:36<@planetmaker>pretty neat stations, supermop :)
07:37<supermop>trying to keep it in the spirit of ogfx
07:37<supermop>in case we ever want an ogfx+ station set
07:37<chillcore>took the words right out of my mouth planetmaker
07:38<supermop>so i'm not worrying about any exotic station bits yet - just default behavior with a few sprinkles
07:38<@planetmaker>if you want such set: sure! :) I mean to provide some coding for that, but I should be pretty careful with what I can currently promise, given my time I could dedicate
07:39<@planetmaker>I can't really say that one style or the other is better
07:40<chillcore>you can have both styles supremop and let the player build the one he likes best for a given situation;)
07:40<supermop>well the fully open brick arch is maybe best then.. with the others you'd probably want to check for adjacent station tiles when deciding if to draw them
07:40<@planetmaker>I don't think that doors would hurt, nor windows
07:40<supermop>chillcore: of course but i feel like an ogfx+ set should be as light and easy to use as possible
07:41<chillcore>oh right ... opengfx+
07:41<@planetmaker>supermop, it's easy to offer them as separate stations
07:41<supermop>add extra sprinkles in an ogfx++ set
07:41<@planetmaker>even in the context of opengfx+ :)
07:42<supermop>well i'm trying to 'sell' this in the sense of convincing a coder to code, so i do not want to ask for anything too complex!
07:42<@planetmaker>supermop, if one can make one station, it's easy as pie to make the same with different graphics :)
07:42<supermop>tomorrow i'll have the iron column instead of wall version, more like original graphics
07:42<@planetmaker>but identical dimensions
07:42<chillcore>and honestly half an arch does not look as bad as you'd think it would
07:44<chillcore>if you want to see one build two platforms at once and delete one ;)
07:45<supermop>well my goals are three stations, based in spirit on the rail, mono, and mag stations
07:45<supermop>then maybe 1 or two more to round it out
07:45<supermop>but all stations available for all railtypes
07:45<chillcore>yes please
07:46<supermop>additional would be a very basic freight station, and maybe a 1940s or so station to fill the gap between the 1880s looking rail station and the 1960s looking monorail station
07:50<supermop>any thoughts on glass vs no glass?
07:59<chillcore>please do not crash the bots
07:59<V453000>supermop: you can render the glass separately with alpha
07:59<chillcore>maybe the one without glass could use some sturdier struts
07:59<chillcore>but can not choose
07:59<V453000>32bpp half-alpha files work normally
08:01<supermop>the reflected sky color seems a bit distracting, so i think plain grey rectangles rendered then made transparent with alpha in PS may let users see their trains better
08:02<V453000>meh, or that
08:02<supermop>in real life these types of station have much less glass, but that's no fun as you can't see your trains!
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08:02<V453000>sounds way simple but as you see fit
08:02<@planetmaker>supermop, it needs two stations (per railtype) anyway: two tracks wide and 1 track wide
08:03<supermop>planetmaker: yes, i assume i will do plain open platforms with a small shelter like in default
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08:03<supermop>for the single platform
08:06<supermop>V453000: ill try rendered glass with alpha. it just looks so blue in that one rendering...
08:06<V453000>well sure but I bet you can tweak environment values; or bake some texture into the glass itself
08:06<V453000>or something
08:08<V453000>btw "realistic texture scale" just looks as if you coloured the objects with a solid color
08:08<V453000>idk how visible will the bricks be if they are so tinyu
08:10<supermop>yeah bricks twice as big could help
08:11<V453000>just in general :)
08:11<supermop>im going to try turning off AA as well
08:12<supermop>and upping the procedural variation between bricks
08:12<supermop>maybe up to 2% rgb variation
08:13<V453000>even if you had saturation random to 40% it would be ok :)
08:13<supermop>and overlay some dinginess towards lower part of brick walls
08:14<supermop>bottoms of platforms always look gross in NYC
08:15<@planetmaker>yup, that helps to avoid the hovering building impression
08:18<supermop>planetmaker: can you split the station posts off into a new topic?
08:19<supermop>seems out of place given that name of topic is about roads..
08:19<supermop>if you are busy ill just flag for another moderator
08:21<supermop>yay thanks
08:22<@planetmaker>up to you to choose a more imaginative title for the 1st posting :)
08:22<supermop>ok bed time! more iron and steel to model tomorrow
08:23<chillcore>good night
08:31<chillcore>planetmaker: a bit back I had someone ask me for a 'simple' train template for blender
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08:31<chillcore>I did not know what to show him except direct him to openttdcoop.
08:31<chillcore>got any suggestions for if the question arises agian?
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... dd_rescue is slooow
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's been over 12 hours, and it copied 200GB out of 1.5TB
08:34<chillcore>that is a lot of data to copy in one go ...
08:36<chillcore>from experience on my slower machines doing smaller chunks saves time
08:36<chillcore>not sure if you have that option though
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>how do you mean?
08:37<chillcore>copying 10 times 10 GB is faster then copying 100GB at once
08:37<chillcore>not al 10 at the same time ofcourse
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'd much rather just let that computer sit in the corner for 3 days than fiddle with stuff
09:21<chillcore>huhu I agree that stopping it now is a bad idea
09:21<chillcore>but maybe there is an option for it for in the future ;)
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09:22<Eddi|zuHause>also, i don't see how that helps when just making a linear copy. it's not like it has to worry about allocating file space on the target filesystem or something
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: you think i'll remember that option in 5 years when i need it again?
09:23<chillcore>memory usage? ... remembering what it did and what still needs to be done
09:23<chillcore>I dunno what causes it ... just know that it happens ;)
09:23<chillcore>and yeah ... maybe you will not remember xD
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>the slowest copies i ever had was when writing large files to an NTFS
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>on linux
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11:13<Samu>my new version :p
11:14<Samu>I vastly simplified that gigantic line
11:14<Samu>MakeStation(t2, wc != WATER_CLASS_CANAL ? OWNER_WATER : wc == WATER_CLASS_CANAL && HasTileWaterClass(t2) && GetWaterClass(t2) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL ? GetTileOwner(t2) : o, sid, STATION_DOCK, GFX_DOCK_BASE_WATER_PART + DiagDirToAxis(d), wc);
11:15<Samu>takes 2 lines now on irc, better than 4
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12:20<Samu>how do i create a setting?
12:21<Samu>At the moment, the setting is re-using "allow drive-through road stops on roads owned by other companies" though I would prefer to create a different setting on its own in the future.
12:21<Samu>the future is now
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12:29<FLHerne>Aargh, how long did it take for me to realise that I can use variables directly as spriteset indices? :-(
12:29<@Alberth>less than infinite, I'd say :)
12:30*FLHerne cheerfully scraps quite a lot of switches and duplicate spritelayouts
12:30<@planetmaker>good evening
12:31<@planetmaker>sprite: spriteset(slope_to_spriteset(current_slope) * 2 + snow);
12:31<@planetmaker>just needs a 38 sprites spriteset
12:31<@planetmaker>and a boolean snow variable
12:32<FLHerne>I can use arithmetic in these things? :D
12:32<FLHerne>Everything gets so much easier
12:32<@Alberth>plain ran out of those planetmaker, I am afraid, maybe next winter again
12:33<@planetmaker>I won't mind non-snowyness until next winter. So it'll be all fine :)
12:35<@planetmaker> @ FLHerne
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27218 trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt (2015-04-02 19:45:16 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 361 changes by Phreeze
13:46<Samu>help me a little bit
13:48<Samu>SDT_BOOL has no member :(
13:48<Samu>trying to generate a setting with the name construction.water_structure_on_competitor_canal
13:55<@Alberth>you need some .ini file in table
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14:11<andythenorth>o/ o/
14:12<Wolf01> lol
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14:17<Samu>i think i got it
14:19<Samu>from 114, what is thins number?
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14:23<@Alberth>the number after 113?
14:26<flipFLOPS>120 (base4)
14:29<@Alberth>ah, but it was a decimal number :p
14:30<@Alberth>@calc base 10 4 113
14:30<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
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14:46*andythenorth ponders a new GS
14:47<@Alberth>fun one, I hope?
14:47<andythenorth>“Go West” or such
14:47<andythenorth>unlock towns one at a time
14:48<andythenorth>I’m playing current Busy Bee, and I think it’s ‘done’
14:48<Samu>this is the longest named setting in the game
14:48<@Alberth>mostly it is, there are a number of small enhancements you could make
14:48<andythenorth>it solves the ‘no big goal’ style of gameplay
14:49<andythenorth>interestingly, with a small FIRS economy, it’s not as fun
14:49<andythenorth>the goals are frequently similar
14:49<andythenorth>by contrast, it makes Full FIRS actually playable
14:49<@Alberth>not enough industries?
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14:49<@Alberth>oh, must try that one then
14:49<andythenorth>not enough types / flows
14:50<Samu>help me short this name
14:50<andythenorth>small economies were invented after I started playing SV / NoCarGoal
14:50<@Alberth>guessed so, I have that problem with default industries in tropical too
14:50<andythenorth>for cargo goal scripts, more industry types isn’t a benefit
14:50<andythenorth>as they only use 3 or 5 types or so
14:51<@Alberth>ah right, BB uses all of them :)
14:51<andythenorth>so with Full FIRS, ~60 industry types, you get a crazy organic network
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14:51<@Alberth>sounds like a great experiment :)
14:51<@Alberth>recommended map-size?
14:52*andythenorth looks
14:52<andythenorth>512x512 or 256x512
14:52<@Alberth>doesn't matter much, perhaps
14:52<andythenorth>larger is too large
14:52<andythenorth>smaller is not enough space
14:52<@Alberth>yeah something like that sounds good
14:53<andythenorth>with FIRS Basic, I want something like ‘connect all the steel mills’
14:53<@Alberth>haven't played 256x256 for a long time :)
14:53<andythenorth>but that’s not possible, can’t integrate that tightly
14:53<@Alberth>cargo-dist gets in the way too then, perhaps
14:54<andythenorth>cdist isn’t fighting me currently, except with supplies
14:54<@Alberth>one of the advantages of a highly fragmented network :)
14:54<andythenorth>“Steel King: you’ve been given the contract to supply all the steel mills with iron ore, scrap metal and coal”
14:54<andythenorth>“You have 35 years to complete your goal"
14:54<@Alberth>sounds SV-ish
14:54<andythenorth>but tying a GS to FIRS that tightly isn’t possible / easy
14:55<@Alberth>it's more a scenario you'd want to do
14:55<Samu>base = GameSettings, var = construction.build_on_competitor_canal, from = 114
14:55<Samu>what is this 114?
14:56<@Alberth>ever tried the FreightTrainChallenge scenario andy?
14:56<@Alberth>Samu: first savegame version that has the setting, probably
14:56<Samu>oh, I see
14:56<Samu>then it's 195
14:57<andythenorth>I’d just use ships :P
14:57<andythenorth>that’s missing the point
14:58<@Alberth>I didn't do the town goods, which makes it a lot easier, I was told
14:58<Samu>def = is default value?
14:58<Samu>hmm, so tempted to put a true there
14:58<@Alberth>Samu: sounds reasonable
15:08<Samu>I'm still getting these warnings
15:08<Samu>Warning 1 warning C4267: 'initializing' : conversion from 'size_t' to 'uint', possible loss of data C:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\smallmap_gui.cpp 1077 1 openttd
15:08<Samu>Warning 2 warning C4267: '-=' : conversion from 'size_t' to 'uint32', possible loss of data C:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\terraform_cmd.cpp 406 1 openttd
15:10<Samu>didn't touch those files
15:12<flipFLOPS>are you assignig size_t into unsigned int
15:12<Samu>no idea
15:12<flipFLOPS>also you should be googling this shit up m8
15:13<flipFLOPS>well go to the line where it's throwing you a warning and look at wtf is habbening
15:13<Samu>i get 2 of these warnings, and 238 about Warning 3 warning LNK4099: PDB 'vc100.pdb' was not found with 'icuuc.lib(ubidi.obj)' or at 'C:\OpenTTD\trunk\objs\x64\Release\vc100.pdb'; linking object as if no debug info C:\OpenTTD\trunk\projects\icuuc.lib(ubidi.obj) openttd
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15:13<flipFLOPS>if you're trying to build openttd on vs you might as well stop now
15:14<Samu>it builds
15:14<Samu>but only for testing
15:15<Samu>can't make a stand-alone build
15:15<flipFLOPS>i could never get it to work myself
15:15<@Alberth>size_t is probably 64 bit at your machine
15:15<flipFLOPS>i vagely recall being able to build it with vs2012 on one of the earlier builds
15:16<Samu>yes, i am trying to build 64 bits version
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15:27<Samu>how do i know the savegame will save this new setting?
15:27<Samu>or a network game
15:30<Samu>oh, it's saved already
15:30<Samu>how do i convert old savegame behaviour now?
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15:31<Samu>there is a peculiar situation
15:31<Samu>locks can already be placed on canals owned by competitors, but docks cannot
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15:31<Samu>how do I solve this
15:33<Samu>default to enabled?
15:34<Samu>default to disabled?
15:41<@Alberth>fix in afterload.cpp
15:42<@Alberth>you added bits to the map, those should be set correctly when loading an old savegame
15:43<@Alberth>you incremented the savegame number too I hope, or you now have save games without addition, and savegames with addition, both with the same savegame number
15:44<Samu>it is bumped to 195
15:44<Samu>it is already being used to do 3 things in
15:44<Samu>this is the 4th
15:44<@Alberth>and 'from' is also 195
15:45<@Alberth>that's the nice thing about your own patches, you can do several things at a time :)
15:46<@Alberth>trunk has to be more clean
15:46<Samu>if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(195)
15:46<Samu>converts owner of water part of docks to new owner
15:47<Samu>moves a bit
15:47<Samu>from industry to another positiion
15:47<Samu>converts all to that position
15:47<Samu>now, adding this setting
15:47<Samu>my question is
15:47<Samu>what do I default it to?
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15:48<@Alberth>default value of the setting
15:48<Samu>even for old games?
15:49<Samu>it's only 1 setting to control 2 behaviours
15:49<@Alberth>old games don't have the setting, so it's added with the default value
15:49<Samu>old games: locks can already be placed on canals owned by competitors, but docks cannot
15:49<@Alberth>if the map doesn't correspond you get interesting situations
15:50<Samu>it's a decision problem
15:50<Samu>I'm inclined to convert it to enabled
15:51<@Alberth>you want to be able to have all possible situations that can happen in old games at least
15:52<@Alberth>if you eg would forbid locks on competitor canals, and you load an old game that uses it, you have a lot of work to convert it
15:53<@Alberth>if you can express everything that can exist in an old game by default, conversion is much easier
15:53<Samu>there was no such setting at all
15:53<Samu>only the behaviour :(
15:53<@Alberth>so it was sort implied enabled thus :)
15:54<@Alberth>sort of*
15:55<Samu>ok, enabled
15:55<Samu>that means, I don't have to convert anything
15:55<Samu>it is defaulting to enabled i think
15:55<Samu>let me try
15:58<andythenorth>where is chocolate cat egg?
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15:59<Samu>oops, it's not doing what Ithink
15:59<Samu>must really convert
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16:05<Samu>now, one thing still needing to be done
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16:05<Samu>prospecting oil rigs on canals owned by competitors :(
16:06<Samu>quite hard to track this bug, i had to create a map filled with canals from one company
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17:18<Samu>Warning 1 warning C4267: '=' : conversion from 'size_t' to 'uInt', possible loss of data C:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\textfile_gui.cpp 230 1 openttd
17:19<Samu>static void Gunzip(byte **bufp, size_t *sizep)
17:19<Samu> z.avail_in = *sizep;
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17:30<@Terkhen>good night
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18:22<Wolf01>'night all
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18:48<Samu>yay new version
18:48<Samu> game setting for dock and lock on competitor canal on permanent rivers v4 r27218.patch [32.54 KiB]
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19:36<Supercheese>This is perhaps the dumbest data-size analogy I have ever heard:
19:36<Supercheese>"...engineers collected nearly three terabytes of data — equivalent to 30 percent of all of the printed material in the Library of Congress"
19:37<Supercheese>what the hell prompted that comparison, I will never know
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20:20<Flygon>Supercheese: It's a dumb comparison
20:20<Flygon>Everyone knows the entire Library of Congress scanned costs more than 3TB
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20:41<supermop>i cant tell if double or single columns look better
20:42<supermop>that is a column right on the tile edge that sort of overlaps with the same column on next tile, or one set in from th edge to look better if there is no next tile, but doubles up if there is
20:44<supermop>these double columns look ok:
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21:35<supermop>yo Pikka
21:42<supermop>oops brb
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22:30<V453000>hello gentlehumanz
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23:02<supermop>just had terrace beer and cheese picnic
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23:55<supermop>who's ready for cast iron?
---Logclosed Fri Apr 03 00:00:18 2015