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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-06

---Logopened Mon Apr 06 00:00:22 2015
00:14<Supercheese>perhaps
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00:19<supermop>hmm a whole tile for the beer garden of a pub is a bit excessive
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00:47<chillcore>ggod morning interwebz
00:48<chillcore>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScDIkNcqZjE
00:53<supermop>yo
00:54<chillcore>hello supermop o/
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00:59<supermop>i've been modelling pub parts all day
00:59<chillcore>I saw the logs ;)
01:00<chillcore>you'll figure it out for sure
01:02<chillcore>there should be a flag to mark stuffs to not flood ...
01:02<chillcore>but not sure how to do it
01:02<chillcore>what I do know isthat you can not change machine states via NewGRF
01:03<chillcore>so your kinda stuck with current behaviour
01:03<chillcore>flightpatchs I mean
01:04<chillcore>so as long as you keep hangar, runways and heliports in the right spot relative to station tile things are fine and you can do whatever
01:05<chillcore>eg. airports can have 10 runways but only the 'normal' ones will be used
01:07<chillcore>I don't see that changing anytime soon, it is something complicated to get right and not for the faint of heart :P
01:07<chillcore>lots of magic nrs
01:10<chillcore>did you see Kamnet's reply?
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01:11<chillcore>It seems you need object tiles with 'water tile' class?
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01:21<supermop>you talking to Supercheese ?
01:22<chillcore>just talking ... XD
01:22<Supercheese>I got things working now
01:22<supermop>im going to model some kegs to sit out back of the pub
01:22<chillcore>checking logs ...
01:22<Supercheese>I cheated and modified the source a tiny bit
01:22<Supercheese>solved my flooding problem
01:22<Supercheese>the main .exe source that is
01:23<chillcore>supermop: seems like I was yes hehe
01:23<Supercheese>now I have nice looking seaports, but sadly I'm relying on a patched version
01:23<Supercheese>ah well, at least my Vintage Commuter can be submitted to OGFX+ when it's ready
01:24<chillcore>supercheese: this is a mere temp workaround, either use water tiles or submit a patch?
01:25<chillcore>the good thing is that you can continue working ... Yay
01:25<Supercheese>the water tiles work, but I wanted to hook up dock tiles to make it look good like in the image I linked
01:25<Supercheese>and the tiles I was using caused flooding
01:25<chillcore>gotcha
01:25<Supercheese>so now my http://i.imgur.com/ImSUbnd.png is fully functional
01:26<Supercheese>with a ~6 character patch to the program source
01:26<Supercheese>I counted, it's 4 characters
01:26<Supercheese>:P
01:26<chillcore>XD
01:26<Supercheese>from FLOOD_ACTIVE to FLOOD_PASSIVE
01:27<Supercheese>amazing what swapping a prefix can do
01:27<chillcore>nice ... but does it break other stuffs now?
01:27<Supercheese>but I change even a single character and it still takes me three minutes to compile o_o
01:28<chillcore>ye depending what file you change more or less files need recompling too
01:28<chillcore>changing settings.ini or lang files triggers the largest amount of them
01:29<chillcore>besides files like tile_map.h and the likes
01:29-!-kamnet [~chatzilla@cpe-76-177-123-175.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
01:29<chillcore>o/ Kamnet
01:29<kamnet>Chillcore! Long time no chat!
01:30<supermop>whoa
01:31<supermop>kamnet:
01:31<kamnet>And Supermop? Hello!
01:31<supermop>never seen you in here man
01:31<kamnet>It's been a few years since I've visited. I keep forgetting :D
01:31<chillcore>kamnet: true, hope you're doing fine ;)
01:32<kamnet>Well, I'm alive. Good enough, I guess!
01:32<Supercheese>Certainly been a-postin' on the forums
01:33<kamnet>Yeah, I keep busy there. Too bad it's not a paid job. HAH!
01:33<Supercheese>I got the seaplane port working now
01:33<Supercheese>took me a while to figure out the magic settings for newobjects to resist flooding
01:34<Supercheese>turns out all along my seagulls would have worked just as well
01:34<Supercheese>and it's probably unintended behavior for the game engine
01:34<chillcore>kamnet: did you like my noise? I really should export a newer version ... I had a listen recently on this pc and without my sound blaster live behind it it sounds bad ... just bad. XD
01:34<kamnet>WOOHOO! Yeah it's a nifty GRF. Not quite wild about the stylings of it, I've wanted to revamp it for quite awhile, but not really had the time.
01:35<kamnet>yeah, probably, but it's neat pushing the limits of the game.
01:35<kamnet>LOL chill, I didn't think it sounded bad. I may just have an appreciation of General MIDI more than others thogh.
01:35<chillcore>that may be the difference yes ...
01:36<chillcore>hardware midi rocks
01:36-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit []
01:37<chillcore>anyhoo I have a better version and wilsend you a pm when I find some time to boot my other pc ;)
01:37<kamnet>I'm actually kidna excited. My oldest son said he'd make his summertime project building a whole new music set just for me. He's a budding jazz enthusiast and has been listening to a lot of Herbie Hancock's Cantaloupe Island, same music that inspired the original TTD soundtrack.
01:38<chillcore>nice
01:39<chillcore>did you get to hear the new arrangement yet that comes with that new version of Transport Tycoon?
01:39<kamnet>Yeah, not quite wild about it.
01:39<chillcore>I kkinda like the freestyle of it but true it is different
01:40<supermop>this keg is maybe the most geometrically complex thing i've modeled in a while
01:40<Supercheese>with or without beer goggles on? ;)
01:40<kamnet>It seems like it's more noise than necessary.
01:41<chillcore>Supercheese: :P
01:45<chillcore>kamnet: because John Broomhall, instead of taking full control and trying to keep it, he just said here is the file do your thing the way in the way you feel like doing it
01:45<chillcore>I do understand your feeling
01:45<chillcore>it is different
01:45<kamnet>Perhaps my boy can one-up it all and do the original proud then. :D
01:45<chillcore>hehe
01:45<supermop>i guess a keg is really useful - if i want some somewhat procedural generated pubs can sprinkle those in back, and they can sit on station platforms if alcohol cargo is waiting
01:46<Supercheese>New TTD mixes? Sounds neat!
01:46<chillcore>looking forward to that ;)
01:46<supermop>kamnet: sounds neat
01:46<supermop>i just want to hear the tto title music all the time
01:47<Supercheese>I had exclusively TTD ringtones back when all the cell phones could play were midi files
01:47<kamnet>I think it might be my last one, though. It's been extremely hard the last few years to find quality pieces to borrow. Nobody wants to work on new MIDI stuff, at least not without being paid. I wish I could afford to pay them, but there's no money here. :(
01:47<Supercheese>well, until I added a few Nintendo songs
01:48<kamnet>So unless my kids take up the passion and start making new works because they love it, that may be done. And of course after the poll I took on the forum, it seems like none of them are entirely popular anymore.
01:48<kamnet>Looking for a new OpenTTD project to keep me busy.
01:49<chillcore>yeah doing midi manually is hard work
01:50<chillcore>hmm maybe I could ask my father if he has something laying around :)
01:52<chillcore>not sure if he keeps his messing about or not
01:52<chillcore>I remember him doing midi in hex ...
01:52<kamnet>I still have two sets I want to try to get out. A Mars theme and Halloween theme.
01:53<chillcore>cool
01:54<supermop>was about to start in on the outdor tables and chairs when i realized this pub still has no windows or doors
01:54<kamnet>DOH
01:54<chillcore>hehe
01:55<supermop>need to go buy groceries too
01:55<chillcore><Supercheese> so now my http://i.imgur.com/ImSUbnd.png is fully functional <- looks nice
01:56<supermop>maybe ill walk to the store and look at pub windows on the way - going for an 1870s style
01:56<Supercheese>Combining grfs, of course
01:56<Supercheese>I'm borrowing marico's delicious objects
01:56<chillcore>huhu
01:56<kamnet>What's the building out in the water?
01:56<Supercheese>The hangar
01:57<kamnet>Oh did you put it back in?
01:57<Supercheese>yes, there are plenty of similar looking floating hangars on the lake nearby
01:57<Supercheese>and we only have like two or three seaplanes
01:58<Supercheese>well, floatplanes rather
01:58<kamnet>If you can draw that in all four directions, good chance of getting it into OpenGFX+ Airplanes! :D
01:59<Supercheese>it's already a patched version of OGFX+ Airports
01:59<kamnet>Oh?
01:59<Supercheese>but the problem is to get everything perfect I rely on a patched version of OTTD
01:59<Supercheese>those docks can't be nicely hooked up to the marico quays in trunk
01:59<Supercheese>else the airport floods
02:00<Supercheese>in any event, I need to polish the Vintage Commuter airports first
02:02<kamnet>Probably needs some custom graphics work to make it look nice.
02:02<supermop>i placed all of the kegs in places where you can't see them in dimetric...
02:02<supermop>ok brb
02:28<chillcore>I should have another look at this permanent rivers patch ...
02:28<kamnet>permanent rivers?
02:28<chillcore>when you build something on a canal it forgets the river flag is lost
02:29<chillcore>ye samu his idea kinda
02:29<chillcore>but he has trouble doing one thing in one patch
02:29<chillcore>the idea is that rivers cannever be destroyed
02:30<chillcore>not terraformed, not bulldozed, only have stuff build on it
02:30<chillcore>and when that stuff is removed the river is back where it was
02:31<chillcore>it is a great idea ... but as you can see in his topic ...
02:31<chillcore>there is no talking to this kid he just keeps going, heading for disaster :P
02:32<kamnet>Oh oh that's right
02:32<chillcore>like that couple that drove of that bridge recently ... so sad
02:32<chillcore>but yeah, his other ideas might work ... not saying that
02:33<chillcore>it is just the way he does it
02:33<chillcore>oh well
02:33<chillcore>me too has to learn the hard way sometimes :P
02:35<chillcore>funny story ... when I was young I thought having one brake on my bicycle was good enough
02:35<kamnet>*chuckle*
02:35<chillcore>so one day I go out at night without lights because ... it was not far
02:35<kamnet>I do look forward to some expanded and improved river play.
02:36<chillcore>so this cop comes chasing me and blocks me ...
02:37<chillcore>like he litterally stops 5 meters in front of me and with his front wheel against the curb
02:37<chillcore>guess what happened
02:37<chillcore>I pull that brake like ad and it snaps
02:37<chillcore>moeahahahahah
02:37<kamnet>you went end over teakettle?
02:37<chillcore>nope I plowed into him :P
02:38<chillcore>"You mofo why you block me like that?"
02:38<chillcore>just as he took out his notepad he gets an urgent call ... see ya
02:38<chillcore>scracthes and all he was gone
02:38<chillcore>lucky me
02:39<chillcore>but it could have neded worse
02:39<kamnet>What a jerk
02:39<chillcore>they are thought that way ...
02:39<chillcore>don't leave room for running
02:40<chillcore>not that I was going to but yeah
02:40<chillcore>never got ticket for no lights
02:41<chillcore>last thing he said was "you'r lucky and get some flipping light on that thing"
02:41<chillcore>kids ...
02:41<chillcore>XD
02:41<kamnet>lol
02:43-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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02:43<chillcore>but yeah rivers that stay helps a bit against land leveing idiots
02:43<chillcore>also you can not rebuild them in normal games
02:43<kamnet>plus makes more interesting landscape
02:43<kamnet>That's something else that should change
02:44<@Alberth>moin
02:44<kamnet>Morning to you Alberth
02:44<chillcore>ye ... I found a neat setting ... lenght 50 and the other setting on 5 in the config ;)
02:44<chillcore>morning Alberth o/
02:44<@Alberth>making rivers more irritating eh? :)
02:44<chillcore>yeah ...
02:45<chillcore>I got what samu has but with only 8 lines ... except for a string and an include
02:46<chillcore>it is still his code mind you ...
02:46<chillcore>without fluff
02:46<@Alberth>not adding owner stuff saves a lot of room :)
02:46<chillcore>ye docks having two owners is beyond me
02:47<chillcore>he'll figure itout someday ... I hope
02:47<kamnet>I've got a revamp of a scenario I'm working on, trying to make some new rivers. One major one at sea level through the length of the map, and then needing to make rivers that feed into it. They'll be at least two tiles wide because I wanna facilitate more boat traffic and trade.
02:48<chillcore>cindini?
02:48<@Alberth>sounds nice
02:49<kamnet>No not Cindini. It's already got a ton of sea-level rivers to manipulate.
02:50<chillcore>ok
02:50<kamnet>It's a revamp of my "Birth of an Empire" scenario with a few more tweaked settings, and made on OpenTTD 1.5.0
02:52<kamnet>I'm stuck though because the land generation patches that are used in an earlier version of the 2013 Spring Patch Pack isn't the same as in later packs, and I like it better than what 1.5.0 generates. I can't export either the scenario to OpenTTD 1.5.0 because it's incompatible, and can't use the heightmap either because the importer still only recognizes grayscale levels.
02:53<chillcore>what do you mean only greascale levels?
02:53<chillcore>gery*
02:53<chillcore>damned
02:53<chillcore>spelling*
02:53<kamnet>recognizes 16 grayscale levels.
02:53<chillcore>it does way more then that
02:53<kamnet>Did that change?
02:53<chillcore>change badly implemented max_height setting
02:53<@Alberth>/me hopes so
02:54<chillcore>thanks for reminding me of that one ...
02:54<chillcore>the best result for now is to have it at the same value it was when exorting the map
02:55<chillcore>it has changed yes but the heightmap does not kow what it was before
02:55<chillcore>but that is yet something else
02:55<kamnet>So if I export the heightmap in 2013SPP, I can import it into 1.5.0 as long as I make sure to keep the same max height setting?
02:55<chillcore>yes
02:56<kamnet>awwwwwww sweet!
02:56<chillcore>dont go more then *2 or /2
02:56<chillcore>you can fiddle a bit but exact the same is best
02:56<chillcore>I just never change that setting from 255
02:56<chillcore>where it should be
02:56<chillcore>IMHO
02:57<chillcore>this breaks tropical badly but I have a patch for that one
02:57<kamnet>i had been setting my height level at 60 when generating a new map.
02:57<chillcore>leave it at 255 then you get 1 / 1 results
02:57-!-OsteHovel [~OsteHovel@140.90-149-87.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
02:58<chillcore>but yeah at 60 to import
02:58<chillcore>then change it to 255 and export again
02:59<chillcore>I really need to get rid of that setting
02:59<chillcore>I never had it and everything was fine
03:00<chillcore>except for a few things I was not aware of
03:01<chillcore>it just does not mmake sencse having it at 255 and then generating maps that are flat as a pancake
03:01<chillcore>just allow moreheightlevels and done should be 'it'
03:02<chillcore>WIP
03:03-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
03:04<andythenorth>o/
03:06<kamnet>Good morning
03:09<@Alberth>\o
03:11-!-Pikka [~Octomom@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
03:18<andythenorth>bob
03:18-!-roidal [~roland@194-152-170-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd
03:18*andythenorth is kicking goals
03:20<Supercheese>better than kicking gaols, I suppose
03:21-!-Progman [~progman@p57A18A24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
03:21<kamnet>Grumble, I don't think I'm exporting the height map right. Importing it into 1.5.0 is completely killing it. :-(
03:22<chillcore>hmm ... phone ...
03:30<andythenorth>hmm
03:30<andythenorth>Pikka’s AI has grown a 17k city
03:30<andythenorth>covers about 10% of my map
03:30<Pikka>huzzah
03:30<andythenorth>how civil of it
03:30<andythenorth>oh there’s one next door to it
03:30<andythenorth>23k
03:31<Pikka>very civil
03:31<kamnet>Alberth, so what I proposed to Planetmaker was to essentially replace Grfcrawler with a new wiki where initial article titles are "GRFID: <whatever>", and then a standard template for some basic information about a NewGRF. Then visitors or whoever anages the NewGRF can come along and add to it, use it as the homepage, publish documentation, link to websites discussion, whatever.
03:31<Pikka>is it aircrafting or just bussing?
03:31<supermop>would these kegs be useful to other, as renders or as 3d blocks?
03:31<andythenorth>just bussing
03:32<@Alberth>kamnet: sounds nice
03:32<@Alberth>note that grfcrawler is owned by orudge, afaik, but we have a similar problem with the bananas front-end, that needs revamping, but nobody knows how/what to do
03:33<@Alberth>it needs someone designing some pages
03:34<kamnet>I thought eis_os owned grfcrawler?
03:34<andythenorth>Alberth: banaramas is quite easy imo
03:34<@Alberth>oh, very possible, at least it's not us
03:34<andythenorth>I just lack motivation to learn how to build a django dev env
03:35<andythenorth>too many unfinished newgrfs
03:35<@Alberth>some mockup-ishes would be a big step already imho
03:35<kamnet>I haven't had motiviation to build web pages in ages. *sigh* I'm so out of practice now.
03:35*andythenorth should firebug something
03:35<andythenorth>also the design is aging
03:35<andythenorth>but that’s a separate story
03:36-!-Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
03:36<@Alberth>we are just a bunch of techies, we can build anything, no clueless about what to build for a user :p
03:36<Rubidium>kamnet: you are aware there are about 1250 unique / used GRFIDs?
03:36<@Alberth>s/no/just/
03:36<andythenorth>bananas only misses an overview page for each grf
03:36<kamnet>Rubidium: Yup. Huge task.
03:37<andythenorth>nah
03:37<andythenorth>autogenerate a page for every grfid
03:37<andythenorth>every possible
03:37<andythenorth>then wait for users to populate them
03:37<kamnet>Although perhaps made a little easier if somebody could generate a script to scrape the current bananas database and then spit that out into individual pages with a template.
03:37<andythenorth>hey, people could ‘claim’ a grfid via the wiki? o_O
03:37<@Alberth>"this grfid could be yours, get it now, for only $$" :D
03:37<kamnet>Exactly what I was thinking Andy.
03:38<andythenorth>there might be a url dispatcher with regex
03:38<andythenorth>so ranges could be claimed
03:38<andythenorth>on a partial match
03:39<kamnet>I was thinking that if somebody added a new file or updated one to bananas, there'd be a box to allow for creating a new wiki page, and maybe an entry in the client and on bananas that links to that.
03:39<Rubidium>but how do you do that in the command line bananas tool?
03:39<@Alberth>bananas is bigger than newgrf, it also has scenarios, height maps, AIs, and game scripts
03:40<@Alberth>Rubidium: send a file?
03:40<kamnet>For command line, maybe you just don't. And, of course, what if somebody didn't want to bother with info on a wiki? I'm not imagining this as something that must be done, just being reasonable.
03:41<@Alberth>what about useful combinations of newgrfs? (just throwing ideas in the air)
03:41<kamnet>Trying to figure out a way to make it happen for every possible way may just be too much work for the effort.
03:42<andythenorth>Alberth: (digression) your idea for smaller components when setting orders, is that a vague idea, or more fully-formed?
03:42<@Alberth>it's vague
03:42<@Alberth>I severely lack openttd dev time
03:42<andythenorth>me too :D
03:43<kamnet>You can always create new pages to pull together various grfid's into a set. There are several pages on the OpenTTD Wiki now that essentially do that.
03:43<@Alberth>sounds good enough
03:45<chillcore>Kamnet: heightmap: do you already have a scenario with terrain you want to export for re-use?
03:45<kamnet>Yes.
03:45<chillcore>ok then, like this ... make sure moregeightlevels is on and the max heigt setting is at 255
03:45<chillcore>export
03:45<chillcore>now load in trunk with both setting as before
03:46<chillcore>should work
03:46<chillcore>s trunk/stable
03:47<chillcore>forget the 60 from before, height map may look rather black but that is fine
03:50<kamnet>Right... it's still killing my terrain.
03:51<chillcore>hmm can I download the sceanrio?
03:51<chillcore>scenario*
03:51<kamnet>Yeah gimmie a sec I'll upload it
03:51<chillcore>not having newgrf is fine I only care about the terrain anyways
03:52<supermop>anyone who wants these as dressing or cargo, have at it:
03:52<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1146520#p1146520
03:54<supermop>pm me or whatever if you need the actual file, or it to exported
03:55<supermop>forum won't let me attach .3dm to post
03:57<chillcore>haha nice ... I hope you have some nice trappist in there
03:58<@Alberth>wrap a zip around it :p
03:58<supermop>that arrives in 750ml bottles with corks as it is double or triple fermented in the bottle - this pub isn't buying the mass produced trappist chillcore
03:59<chillcore>supermop: even better ;)
03:59<kamnet>http://kam-net.com/ottd/mhl.png for a look at what's happening
03:59<supermop>the back lot of the pub still looks too empty maybe ill model some crates of empty bottles to stack up
04:00<@Alberth>and some trash cans
04:00<supermop>BEER->pub->MNSP->Brewery->repeat
04:00<supermop>andythenorth: pls add above to FIRS beer economy
04:01<andythenorth>:P
04:02<kamnet>Scenario here: http://kam-net.com/ottd/EarlyEmpire_V1_Test.scn build w/ 2013 Spring Patch Pack v2.1.143 Full
04:03<chillcore>404 on both links Kamnet
04:03<supermop>i can see
04:03<supermop>looks like some tall levels are flipping to zero...?
04:03<chillcore>hmm must be browser defauing to https
04:03<kamnet>chillcore: Hrm... they're working for me.
04:03<chillcore>1 sec
04:04<chillcore>for you I will undo some stuffs temporarily . ;)
04:04<kamnet>Ah, guess that would be explaining that LOL
04:05<kamnet>supermop: Can you have those kegs repaint in 2CC? Every railway should have their own custom brew :D
04:06<supermop>actually a flat color stripe around the middle would help alot with the overwhelming aluminum color
04:06<chillcore>Kamnet: right I can see what happens now ... yay
04:06<supermop>i thought about having a few colors of cap on them
04:07<chillcore>also got the scenario just need that openttd build now
04:08<supermop>for the pub at least im sure someone can come up with some fancy masking to give them CC or random other colors, but unsure if it is worth doing...?
04:08<supermop>if they are on a platform to load or in a boxcar, CC is easy
04:08<supermop>although stations only support 1cc so far
04:09<kamnet>chillcore: http://is.gd/GLnikU
04:09<supermop>andythenorth: early hog city bus could use dudes sitting upstairs when full
04:10<supermop>going to go cook dinner brb
04:10<kamnet>What's for dinner?
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04:10<Supercheese>road hogs?
04:10<Supercheese>or pineapples
04:11<Supercheese>alternatively, fish & chips
04:11<@Alberth>squid &chips
04:12<andythenorth>urgh, passengers
04:15<kamnet>Just drop in some YETI dudes!
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04:29<chillcore>Kamnet this may take a little moment but I should be able to fix that for you ... going to build spring patchpack myself as the binaries refuse duty and I don't feel like faffing much with fixing that. ;)
04:29<kamnet>lol. Thanks
04:29<chillcore>no crashlog so ...
04:30<kamnet>Of course it woud just be nicer if the entire scenario could be imported into 1.5.0...
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04:31<kamnet>Or, perhaps more helpful, just get a recent nightly with adf88's single house picker patch.
04:32<Supercheese>Now I can finally get back to actually playing my saved game
04:32<Supercheese>I find I often get sidetracked for days going, "Oh why doesn't this yet exist in some newgrf, I think I'll make it"
04:33<chillcore>brb. reboot to get rid of something that is slowing down my system ... yay for enabling stuffs
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04:35<kamnet>Start posting those gems then, Supercheese :D
04:35<kamnet>I wish I had the time and eergy to buckle down and get some of my stuff finished
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04:42<@Alberth>new stuff to try always looks nicer to work on :)
04:56<chillcore>Kamnet: I am surprised this even runs ... so much warnings ...
04:57<chillcore>also motionsickness ... this moving main screen is killing me
04:57<chillcore>XD
04:58<kamnet>*laughs* Well, it's from a 2013 build, devs have been busy.
04:58<supermop>steaks
04:58<supermop>and lentils
04:58<supermop>and beer
04:59<kamnet>Yum! I'm hungry now. It's only 5am.
04:59<chillcore>this patch ... that moves the viewport location ... just no ... but that may be just me
04:59<kamnet>I don't ever pay attention to it
05:00<chillcore>I have to ... advanced settings to check
05:00<chillcore>also according to the warnings I have no choice in blitter and the prog sigs will not work as intented
05:01<chillcore>anyhoo ... not what I am here for so
05:02<chillcore>hmm this build does not have morheightlevels?
05:03<chillcore>nvm
05:03<kamnet>I was gonna say, how the heck did I build a 60 level map then??
05:04<chillcore>ye the toggle option seems MIA
05:04<chillcore>enabling show all ...
05:04<chillcore>got it ... someone has a lot of work to do
05:04<chillcore>not me
05:05<kamnet>I'm sorry.
05:05<kamnet>Truth be told, under the hood it's probably a horrible patch pack.
05:05<chillcore>it's fine ... it is just that it does not show when selecting the "show patches settings"
05:06<chillcore>not saying that it is horrible ... it may be made a bit more user friendly perhaps
05:06<chillcore>and consistent in the gui department
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05:08<kamnet>Latest version has quite a few bugs that haven't been resolved, ut understandable considering Pi1985 is in ukraine.
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05:15<Supercheese>By the way kamnet, I'm using the Pacific Northwest Town Names grf in this game, and it's great; since I'm from the area myself I recognize nearly all of the names
05:15<kamnet>Awesome, glad somebody is enjoying it.
05:15<@Alberth>they're just at the wrong place relatively to each other :p
05:15<Supercheese>Sadly my town didn't come up in this mapgen
05:16<Supercheese>but it's definitely in there, I'd seen it befor
05:16<Supercheese>e
05:16<@Alberth>that would count as broken map, wouldn't it? :D
05:16<Supercheese>heh
05:16<Supercheese>anyway, need to post screens before I pass out
05:18<chillcore>right: Kamnet you're not losing your sanity ... this exporting heightmaps code can not produce anything sensible
05:19<chillcore>I really hope this is not what trunk has
05:19<chillcore>not checked yet
05:19<chillcore>anyhoo ... gimme some and you'll have a nice map to toy with
05:20<kamnet>I got a lot of editing ahead of me still. I love the heights and the mountains created, but it's too hilly and alpinist in many parts, need more flat areas.
05:21<chillcore>yeah them steep slopes at the borders and rivers and such I can not remove
05:21<chillcore>but I can export a 1/1 copy after chaning heightmap.cpp
05:21<chillcore>just need to replace that with my patchpacks code
05:21<chillcore>:P
05:22<kamnet>The river that cuts through the middle, that's hand-made and literally roughed in just to get a start. I tried to follow the lowest points in the middle of the map.
05:22<chillcore>cool but I would have followed terrain .... all you need is locks on slopes ;)
05:23<kamnet>I like the steep cliffs on most of the oceanside, though. The higher points all snow over in winter and I load those up with forests and mines. Abundant, but a real pain in the butt to get to.
05:23<chillcore>your scenario though so your call
05:23<chillcore>hehe
05:23<kamnet>Oh there will be more rivers that follow terrain as well.
05:23<@peter1138>Hmm, should I install ottd on my tablet...
05:23<chillcore>don't give it all away now ... surprise us
05:24<chillcore>^^^ Kamnet
05:24<kamnet>LOL... I tried to whip this one out before 1.5.0 was released. I gave up after a week because i realized it's just going to take me too long. Heck. The original scenario took me three months.
05:25<chillcore>ok
05:25<Supercheese>Grrrr my .png keeps changing some colors on me when I save it
05:26<kamnet>If I could get a recent nightly with afd88's single house picker patch, maybe rainfall generator too, that would speed up my development quite a bit
05:27<chillcore>you would still be messing with a custom build ... games will no load in vanilla
05:27<chillcore>waste of time TBH
05:27<kamnet>Drats.
05:27<kamnet>Afraid of that.
05:27<chillcore>poke some devs for inclusion of single house picker :P
05:28*chillcore hands poker to Kamnet
05:28<kamnet>I talked to adf abou it, he said it's nowhere near ready for trunk inclusion.
05:28<chillcore>ah ok
05:29<chillcore>wait with the poking then but keep the poker for laters xD
05:29<chillcore>I has more where that came from haha
05:29<kamnet>But after I get this done, perhaps I'll finally get back to Thomas the Tank Engine scenario.
05:29<chillcore>Toyland wot
05:29<chillcore>woot*
05:30<chillcore>let's call it Toddler the Tank
05:30<kamnet>Nope. Temperate.
05:30<chillcore>copyright and shizz
05:30<chillcore>fine too
05:30<kamnet>LOL
05:31<kamnet>Although I guess I could build it in Toyland too.
05:31<chillcore>ye animated models
05:32<Supercheese>Ugh, I swear the water turns a different color when I upload my screenshots and view them in Firefox
05:32<Supercheese>dunno what's going on there
05:32<kamnet>compressing them?
05:33<Supercheese>I can't say, they view fine on my local disk
05:33<Supercheese>might just be Firefox being poopy
05:34<Supercheese>anyway, good night
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05:35<kamnet>Huh, they look fine to me.
05:55<@peter1138>Hmm, installing 1.5.0 gives you an out of date baseset :S
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05:57<@planetmaker>re bananas & wiki: there is an URL which can be speicifed for NewGRFs in bananas. That could well be a wiki page relating to it
05:59<@planetmaker>hm, so that link in the installer needs updating
06:02-!-Marty [~Marty@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd
06:04<@planetmaker>I've honestly no clue as to where to update that information, though
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06:05<Wolf01>o/
06:05<@Alberth>moin
06:05<chillcore>hi wolf o/
06:07<chillcore>Alberth: this may be testing your grey cells a bit too much ... when exporing heightmaps was added ... do you recall which file it was you added the code to devide the grey scale by 16?
06:07<chillcore>it was not heightmap.cpp ...
06:08<@Alberth>loading or saving?
06:08<chillcore>I kowit was you and I remember adjusting it ... this photographic memory of mine needs a higher resolution :P
06:08<chillcore>saving
06:09<chillcore>loading is in heightmap.cpp
06:09<chillcore>but saving was not ... hmm
06:10<chillcore>I'll find it for sure ...
06:11<chillcore>I can always look at the function, don't sweat on it too much ;)
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06:14<@Alberth>MakeHeightmapScreenshot(const char *filename) screenshot.cpp?
06:15<@Alberth>chillcore: ^
06:15<chillcore>got it ... thank you so much Alberth
06:18<@Alberth>ack PNG :)
06:20<chillcore>I was searching in my patchpack ... it is a oneliner that needs fixing-ish still there and is not adjusted at all in the patchpack Kamnet is using
06:21<@peter1138>Hurr, do we have a tablet mode? Seeing a point is weird :)
06:32<chillcore>Kamnet: you have a PM, enjoy ;)
06:33-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Quit: .]
06:35*chillcore checks trunk now
06:39<chillcore>has been taken care of but ... peeps need to rember what the correct height setting is
06:39<chillcore>do we include that value in the heighmap name?
06:40<chillcore>anyhoo
06:43<chillcore>I'll add fixing-ish that to my gui version too
06:43<chillcore>I just do not want different maps between saving and loading
06:43<chillcore>unless that is the thing peeps want ofcourse
06:45<chillcore>so adding a number at the end of hte file name is simplest to keep everybody happy I guess
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06:54<alluke>what was the translate page ?
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07:05<@Alberth>translate of what?
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07:26<alluke>newgrf
07:26<alluke>id like to fix a few errors from firs
07:27<@planetmaker>translator.openttdcoop.org
07:30<@Alberth>o/
07:31<alluke>thanks!
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07:32<alluke>what to do if there reads done! instead of start fixing?
07:33<@Alberth>click at the project, select the language
07:33<@Alberth>select the string, imrprove
07:34<@Alberth>s/rp/p/
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07:37<frosch123>planetmaker: the installer does not distinguish "compatible" versions of ogfx
07:37<frosch123>there is a ogfx for 0.7 - 1.1
07:37<frosch123>and a ogfx for 1.2 - ...
07:38<frosch123>https://www.openttd.org/en/download-opengfx <- that's what needs updating
07:38<frosch123>but we need to make a new release of ogfx anyway
07:38<frosch123>there were some more fixes pending on the forums somewhere
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07:39<frosch123>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1146294#p1146294 <- ah, i made a bookmark :)
07:43<alluke>access denied?
07:44<alluke>when i click a string
07:44<frosch123>what language?
07:44<alluke>finnish
07:45<frosch123>try again
07:45<frosch123>i promoted you to finnish translator
07:45<alluke>thanks
07:46<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfdev <- we have dedicated translator roles
07:46<frosch123>there is no wildcard role for everyone :)
07:53<alluke>steel mill ain't on the list?
07:54<alluke>is it ottd base string?
07:54<frosch123>quite possible
07:58<supermop>i sure am getting a bunch of pub greeble out of this diversion
08:01<frosch123>kamnet: the wiki supports sortable tables
08:02<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Developers <- take a look at the penis list
08:12<Marty>really... frosch123
08:12<Flygon>penis... list
08:12<chillcore>XD
08:12<frosch123>i didn't make that page, i have no idea what it is for
08:13<frosch123>but i remembered that it was sortable :)
08:13<Flygon>CTRL+Fing "penis" doesn't bring up penis
08:13<Flygon>:|
08:13<Marty>It was your way of referring to the page...
08:15<frosch123>sorry, if you took offense
08:16<Flygon>Mate
08:16<Flygon>I'm in a wide variety of channels
08:16<Flygon>Some raunchy, some not
08:16<Flygon>This isn't raunchy
08:16<Marty>Not at all, just made me smile
08:16<Flygon>Sooooo
08:16<Flygon>Yeah, I was surprised O_O
08:16<Flygon>Anyway
08:16<Flygon>AWAY I GO
08:16*Flygon whooop whoop whoop whoop whoop, whoop whup
08:17*chillcore tries to get rid of Mary Poppins sorting the damned things
08:17<chillcore>there go my childhood memories
08:18<chillcore>up up and away
08:18<Flygon>God... this channel
08:18<Flygon>Only this channel
08:18<chillcore>lol
08:18<Flygon>Could somehow make me think "Does Mary Poppins have a penis list?"
08:18<Flygon>I'm rubbing my own forehead at this
08:18<Flygon>Because I'm just "urg, dammit Flygon's brain"
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08:49<chillcore>brainfood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzPkpgWktQo
08:49<chillcore>may contain panda
08:50<chillcore>but no nuts XD
08:58<heffer>hmm. okay. so i need opengfx 0.5.2-RC1 to run openttd 1.5.0? is there any pre-release of nml that i can package so that our buildsystem could build 0.5.2-RC1?
08:58<frosch123>no, only the broken one
08:59<heffer>not what i wanted to hear :P
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09:40<andythenorth>cat is surprised
09:45<@Alberth>you found it!
09:47<V453000>xd
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10:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, re OpenGFX: the current version on bananas is a version which is suitable for 1.5.0 as it at least has all sprites.
10:16<@planetmaker>No doubt, though, it could use more bug fixes :)
10:18<@planetmaker>heffer, yeah, sorry. But I was away the last 4 weeks and I needed at least some OpenGFX for people to play with... even when it's hard for mainainers
10:25<frosch123>i am currently fixing the alignment
10:25<frosch123>of the gui sprites
10:28<@planetmaker>oh
10:29<@planetmaker>is it that bad?
10:29<@planetmaker>and how do I update the download-opengfx link?
10:29<@planetmaker>would be nice if I could do that in principle myself
10:29<frosch123>no idea, ask Rubidium :)
10:29<supermop>need to find a public domain photo of a pannier tank
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10:31<chillcore>wikipedia?
10:31<frosch123>hmm, the cursor sprites in 2x zoom are all wrong :p
10:33<chillcore>fuuu mobile sites
10:33<@planetmaker>oh, the 2x sprites... yeah, maybe
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10:36<chillcore>supermop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannier_tank
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11:21<kamnet>Hoorah, I got my nap in!
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11:27<kamnet>Of course now everybody's skipped off for lunch or dinner. :D
11:30<chillcore><kamnet> Hoorah, I got my nap in! <- Yay now daddy can eat without making a mess on the floor ... XD
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11:30<chillcore>ah wait you did not leave out a k ... woopsie
11:31<kamnet>SMH
11:31<chillcore>o/
11:32<chillcore>kamnet: to repeat myself from earlier ... you've got a forum PM ;)
11:33<kamnet>I got it, and thank you! What did you have to fix?
11:33<chillcore>I replied to my own message
11:33<chillcore>but I just changed a 16 into a 1 in screenshot.cpp
11:33<chillcore>that is all
11:33<chillcore>trunk does it a little different
11:34<kamnet>Does this require a fix for trunk?
11:35<chillcore>nope ... just load at level 255
11:35<chillcore>or stable if you prefer
11:35<chillcore>more audience that way for your scenario ;)
11:36<kamnet>Was it the PNG being created by spring patch pack that was bad then?
11:36<chillcore>it was the spring patchpack that missed on a change to make somehow
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11:36<chillcore>yes it reduced levels to 16
11:36<kamnet>Ah.
11:36<chillcore>my fix just keeps the greayscale intact
11:37<chillcore>so max_height at 255 and your map will be whatever it was before. ;)
11:37<kamnet>*ponders* That may be fixed in the most recent version then.
11:37<chillcore>maybe I don't know
11:38<kamnet>I should check.
11:38<chillcore>for trunk to keep the map as is you should load it at the same level maxheight was when exporting
11:40<chillcore>too much room to mess up IMHO since the heightmap does not remember what it was
11:40<chillcore>eg if you upload a heightmap to bananas ... the one downloading has no clue what to do
11:41<@Alberth>examine the file?
11:41<chillcore>how Alberth?
11:41<@Alberth>it's being loaded into memory right?
11:41<chillcore>I mean after that
11:41<frosch123>we need a mapgen preview :p
11:42<chillcore>yes that too
11:42<@Alberth>I need openttd dev time for that :(
11:42<chillcore>what I mean is this:
11:42<chillcore>say I have this nice game game and want to share my heightmap
11:43<chillcore>my maxheight is 60 so the greayscale is adjusted to that
11:43<chillcore>that seems fine in a way
11:43<chillcore>but now I upload it to bananas
11:43<chillcore>how does the one downloading know that I had 60
11:43<chillcore>that is the only way his game looks like mine
11:43<@Alberth>don't think the one knows
11:44<chillcore>that is the prob indeed
11:44<frosch123>heightmaps are not scenarios
11:44<chillcore>so my suggestion is this
11:44<frosch123>with heightmaps you are free to choose map size and height
11:44<chillcore>when exporting with moreheightlevels off ... scale to 16
11:44<@Alberth>but you can walk over the data, and check min/max value, and tell the one these numbers, or have a toggle "automagically copy map values"
11:45<chillcore>and when the setting is on do scale to 255
11:45<frosch123>but i see that there is an issue with saving, the max allowed mapheight has nothing to do with the max used mapheight
11:45<chillcore>yes indeed frosh ... I kept things way simpler in my patchpack
11:45<@Alberth>good point
11:45<frosch123>[17:44] <chillcore> when exporting with moreheightlevels off ... scale to 16 <- that is already the case
11:45<frosch123>all heightmaps are always scaled to the full greyscale range
11:46<chillcore>not anymore
11:46<chillcore>Alberth yes indeed that part is fine
11:46<chillcore>it is when the setting is on that probs come
11:47<chillcore>so to continue with loading the map
11:47<chillcore>if moreheightlevels is off we load at 16
11:47<chillcore>of on we load at 255
11:47<frosch123>mhl is no bool switch :p
11:47<chillcore>it used to be frosh
11:47<chillcore>and all was good
11:47<frosch123>anyway, the problem is really the max height setting
11:48<chillcore>yes
11:48<chillcore>it has to go
11:48<frosch123>it breaks heightmaps, it breaks snowline, everything with absolute heights
11:48<@Alberth>please tell current state, it's confusing enough without history
11:48<chillcore>true
11:48<frosch123>so, the issue is not specific to heightmaps at all
11:48<chillcore>no
11:48<chillcore>way beyond that
11:48<frosch123>Alberth: current state is that both save and load map the complete greyscale range to 0 to max-height setting
11:48<chillcore>but ok heightmaps
11:48<@Alberth>I think you need a new "current largest used height" var
11:49<frosch123>Alberth: which is the only sane thing to do
11:49<chillcore>we ned maxheight at 255 at all time if moreheightlevels is on
11:49<chillcore>and do the rest differently
11:49<frosch123>Alberth: problem is, that max-height is used to decide what height are high and which are low (for various things, including snowline)
11:49<chillcore>eg my fix for tropical in the tgen light patch
11:50<frosch123>Alberth: but map generator has its very own idea what heights to generate
11:50<frosch123>chillcore: i disagree, maxheight at 255 makes no sense
11:50<frosch123>i does not solve any issue with map height percentages
11:50<chillcore>yes it does
11:51<chillcore>i di not finish my explanation
11:51<chillcore>say I got this game with topheight 60 (actual tile)
11:52<chillcore>and export scaled to 255 ... when I load it my top tile is still 60
11:52<chillcore>it is as simple as that
11:52<chillcore>please trust me on this ;)
11:52<@Alberth>yes, but I want max at 128 (ie load your 60 high map, but limit raising to 128
11:53<chillcore>maps that are loaded remain as they were ahen saved
11:53<frosch123>you did not answer my question
11:53<frosch123>chillcore: what heightlevel is snow at, if it is set to 90%?
11:53<chillcore>same as it is now
11:53<frosch123>...
11:53<chillcore>hm wait where did the 90% come from?
11:53<frosch123>well, it is broken
11:54<chillcore>NewGRF?
11:54<frosch123>yes, all newgrf heights are defines as percentage
11:54<frosch123>since that is the only thing that makes sense
11:54<chillcore>aha ...
11:54<chillcore>I can fix that
11:54<chillcore>take 90% of what the user has as snowlevel
11:55<chillcore>instead of max_height
11:55<chillcore>simples
11:55<frosch123>snowline is only an example
11:55<chillcore>same for desert and everythin else
11:55<chillcore>you can not rely on that maxheight setting
11:55<chillcore>it makes no sense at all
11:55<frosch123>you need a general rule what heightlevel is high, and what is low
11:55<chillcore>true
11:56<chillcore>that is what terrain type does
11:56<frosch123>i would think that the maxheight setting need to be adjusted to mapsize
11:56<chillcore>hmm ...
11:56<frosch123>or possibly a warning if it is very off
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11:56<frosch123>like when loading a heightmap and choosing a very different aspect ratio
11:57<chillcore>thinking ...
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11:57<chillcore>snowline for when loading heightmaps ...
11:58<chillcore>we scan for the highest tile after loading the terrain
11:58<chillcore>just like I fixed tropical
11:58<frosch123>that makes no sense
11:58<frosch123>the user can scale heightmaps
11:58<frosch123>both x, y and z dimensions
11:58<chillcore>the z dimension is kinda a bad idea but ok
11:58<frosch123>the loading of heightmaps is completely fine
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11:59<frosch123>the issue is with saving the heightmap, because the maxheight setting does not reflect the actual heights of the map
11:59<chillcore>hmm ...
11:59<frosch123>chillcore: think of heightmaps coming from realworld data, not as them being saved with ottd
12:00<frosch123>the latter is only a trick to circumvent the issues with scenarios
12:00<frosch123>loading heightmaps loads a greyscale image from any source, and it scales it correctly to x,y,z dimensions configured in ottd
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12:00<chillcore>hmm yeah but peeps have always had to cheat anyways so nohing changes there
12:00<chillcore>not much*
12:01<frosch123>snowline, rainforrest, save-heightmap, other-newgrf conditions... they all have the same issue with maxheight being unreleated to what the mapgen acutally produces
12:01<chillcore>exactly
12:02<chillcore>so why do we rely on it?
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12:02<frosch123>because we have no other "height scale" setting
12:03<chillcore>ok fair enough
12:03<chillcore>I'll fix it for you guys
12:03<frosch123>maybe we should change the snowline setting to also be in percent in the gui
12:03<frosch123>and rename the maxheight setting to "height scale" or something
12:03<chillcore>yeah maybe that is a good idea
12:04<chillcore>I will fix all of what is currently wrong ... at least I will try
12:05<chillcore>but please apply tgen light ... pretty please ...
12:05<frosch123>all 100 fs tasks? :p
12:05<chillcore>moehahahaha
12:05<chillcore>I'll start with MHL
12:05<chillcore>if that is k with you ;)
12:06<chillcore>I know there is quite a bit to do and change ... and not is as simple as it seems ... I'll admit that
12:06<chillcore>+all
12:07<chillcore>the thing iqs that ic111 told me to stop tweaking
12:07<chillcore>because he wanted to get o with it
12:07<chillcore>so I did my patchpack
12:07<chillcore>and when I did give things back to him he did not imlpement
12:08<chillcore>so I said balls to it
12:08<chillcore>then the committing started and I could not get inbetween
12:08<chillcore>I felt ignored
12:08<chillcore>then ISP happened
12:08<chillcore>anyhoo moving forward
12:09<chillcore>ther is a decent fix for tropical in tgen light ... does not depend on the rest ;)
12:09<chillcore>let's start with that?
12:10<chillcore>the first three patches are optional but make such a big difference already
12:10<chillcore>actually playable coasts
12:10<chillcore>the tuning of perlin params could use a bit more tweaks
12:11<chillcore>but generate so much nicer maps than what we currently have
12:11<chillcore>there is nothing else in the light version
12:11<chillcore>just some magic numbers tweaking
12:12<chillcore>commit messages should speak for themselves
12:12<@Alberth>yeah yeah, it's already on my list :p
12:12<chillcore>I don't like to push like this
12:13<chillcore>I just know that my thing is good
12:13<chillcore>thank you Alberth, and take your time
12:13<Marty>Im sure you heard this a mio times, but isnt the days in the game a bit short?
12:14<frosch123>Marty: you mean the overall gametime is too short?
12:14<@Alberth>playing a game to the 'end' is 24 hours, too short?
12:14<frosch123>the length of a day is only a result of dividing the time a game on 256x256 map should take by 100 years
12:14<Marty>I mean trains traveling for several weeks
12:15<@Alberth>Marty: yes, scales have no meaning
12:15<frosch123>Marty: oh, so if you build a piece of track, you want to wait 5 years till it is completed? :p
12:16<Marty>no I just think days are a bit short compared to the cargo pickups and station rating etc
12:16<frosch123>that's how computer games are
12:17<@Alberth>time and sizes are chosen "to work" in the game, not balanced against reality or so
12:18<@Alberth>so a train is 1/2 house, and an airport is just 5-6 houses or so
12:18<Marty>train velocity and acceleration doesnt really compare with the real world
12:21<@Alberth>nothing does :)
12:22<@Terkhen>hello
12:22<@Alberth>hi hi Terkhen
12:22<chillcore>hello Terkhen
12:23*chillcore takes some notes of things to fix and the way that is prefered to fix them
12:25<chillcore>- exporting heightmaps at 255 or 16 base on allowmoreheightlevels, instead of current top tile
12:25<frosch123>why are you so obsessed with the 16 and 255?
12:26<chillcore>because that works
12:26<chillcore>16 for old maps
12:26<chillcore>255 for anything new
12:26<chillcore>hmm wait ... not needed
12:26<chillcore>just 255 when exporting
12:26<chillcore>that will do
12:26<frosch123>old maps also used the whole greyscale range
12:26<chillcore>yeah
12:27<chillcore>it is when loading that the old ones need 16 ... my bad
12:27<frosch123>i really don't understand your thoughs :/
12:27<chillcore>adding a line to my file ;)
12:28<chillcore>I know frosch sorry about that
12:28<@Alberth>just add a scale parameter, imho
12:28<chillcore>thing is that I do not think about most of that stuff no more because I did many times before
12:29<chillcore>Alberth: scale for loading or exporting?
12:29<@Alberth>loading
12:29<chillcore>frosch and explaing it not my forte ... I prefer showing
12:29<@Alberth>imho it doesn't make sense to destroy information when exporting
12:29<chillcore>Alberth ... makes sense ... adding to my file
12:30<@Alberth>adding sense to the file is always a good thing(tm) :D
12:30<chillcore>XD
12:32<chillcore>I think the way heighmaps as it is now does not need much tweaking ... maybe just a warning like there is for resizing the map?
12:32<chillcore>+ loading*
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12:33<chillcore>scaling down is prety much fine but up does not work quite well
12:33<@Alberth>yeah, inventing information is always a problem
12:34<@Alberth>no surprises there :)
12:34<chillcore>you get these uglyy slopes due to there not being more then 1 tile height difference between tiles too
12:34<chillcore>as you say it Alberth
12:35<frosch123>again, the primary purpose of load heightmap is to load images from external sources
12:35<chillcore>hmm what else is still broken ... we fixed a few things a few weeks back already ...
12:35<chillcore>frosh for that we have the setting no?
12:35<frosch123>there is no point in adjusting loading heightmaps to please whatever save-heightmap does
12:35<chillcore>it is prety much good as is for that
12:35<chillcore>true
12:35<kamnet>Apparently I found a great way to cause some trouble today chillcore!
12:36<@Alberth>:)
12:36<chillcore>not at all Kamnet ... this discussion has to happen some day anyway ... so thank you
12:36<frosch123>chillcore: as, said i do not understand your thoughts at all :) i only see that there are arguments for how load-heightmap should work wrt. previously exported heightmaps, which i consider an invalid reasoning in geneal
12:36<chillcore>I dig that
12:37<chillcore>so lets leave loading as is
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12:37<chillcore>just export at 255
12:37<chillcore>then when loaded at 255 all is good
12:37<chillcore>if loaded lower all is good too ;)
12:38<chillcore>players choice
12:38<chillcore>if exported at 255 people like kamnet can redo scenarios without losing height info
12:38<chillcore>^^^ that is my only concern
12:39<chillcore>this is near impossible right now
12:39<@Alberth>wrong concern
12:39<chillcore>hehe
12:39<@Alberth>you should be able to load a heightmap as-is
12:39<@Alberth>that's it, source of the heightmap it totally irrelevant
12:40<chillcore>sure if you know the level it was exported at then you can no prob
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12:40<frosch123>exporting and loading heightmap works for all x/y/z dimensions, as long as they are the same for loading and saving
12:40<chillcore>for importing from extarnal sources ... yeah
12:40<frosch123>so, i do not see what the issue is
12:41<LordAro>frosch123: heh, i was going to update the wiki page, but seems someone else got there first :)
12:41<frosch123>if you save a heightmap with a different maxheight setting than you load it with later, you get a different map the same way as when you load it with a different x/y size
12:41<frosch123>LordAro: yeah, i wondered whether you changed your name :p
12:41<LordAro>:)
12:42<frosch123>though i think the template was still missing or something
12:42<LordAro>yeah, that was the only thing left for me to do :)
12:42<chillcore>frosch: yes ... indeed it will be different
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12:43<chillcore>but what if I do not want it to be different at all ... let me do some testing here ... and produce something to show you
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13:11<chillcore>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63595
13:11<chillcore>last post
13:11<chillcore>hint the value you are looking for is not 255
13:12<chillcore>it could have been but that would be too easy
13:12<chillcore>anything slightly off and the map looks like garbage
13:12<chillcore>read: unplayable
13:13<chillcore>I do not kow how else to explain it
13:13<chillcore>if I had exported at 255 by automatic all you had to do was load at 255
13:13<chillcore>alas
13:14<chillcore>I will reveal the magic value ... just not yet
13:14<chillcore>also imagine I upload to bananas as is
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13:14<chillcore>I will not I promise
13:15<@Alberth>we already established that loading is broken right?
13:15<chillcore>this is exporting ...
13:15<chillcore>I exported at some value
13:15<chillcore>it hangs together Alberth
13:15<soupy>So I'm seeing there was a patch a while back that simulated signals in tunnels, but I can't seem to find it for download or as a NewGRF. Any clues?
13:15<frosch123>Alberth: i thought loading is fine, only exporting is broken :p
13:15<chillcore>and yes we astablished that some things are broken
13:16<chillcore>see what I mean :P
13:16<chillcore>we can not agree on what is broken
13:16<chillcore>without wanting to sound cocky I can fix all this
13:17<chillcore>my rerasons seem not to be valid (due to me not being able to explain all of it)
13:17<@Alberth>to me, a heightmap can come from anywhere, and I want to have control while loading it
13:17<chillcore>you will have alberth I will not take that away from you ;)
13:18<chillcore>just exporting at 255 and done with it
13:18<soupy>Oh, hi Chill. In fact, I think you had included the tunnel signal in a patchpack at one point.
13:18<chillcore>if peeps want the same they do so at 255
13:18<chillcore>and you can at whatever you want still
13:18<chillcore>;)
13:18<@Alberth>chillcore: i mean from ANYWHERE
13:18<@Alberth>not just export from openttd
13:18<chillcore>yes I need not touch loading
13:19<chillcore>soupy: yes I did and hello
13:19<@Alberth>and I can set max height at 156 or so ?
13:19<chillcore>yes
13:19<chillcore>no prob
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13:20<@Alberth>k, then sure, export might be broken too :)
13:20<chillcore>but you will not be fishing after some magic value if you know the map was exported from openttd
13:21<@Alberth>I don't need to, I have full control
13:21<chillcore>hehe
13:21<chillcore>yes you do
13:21<soupy>Chill, do you know what happened to the signal in tunnel simulation?
13:22<@Alberth>soupy: NewGRF won't work, what does "find for download" mean?
13:22<@Alberth>at best there is a source code patch that you have to insert into the openttd program while compiling it
13:22<soupy>Alberth: I'm not sure, to be honest. I know how to use NewGRFs, but I was hoping there was a patch or something.
13:23<@Alberth>chillcore: so how do I have full control of loading then?
13:23<soupy>Ah, I'm not savvy on that side of things yet.
13:23<@Alberth>soupy: depends on your definition of "patch". Here that includes source code patches :)
13:23<soupy>It seemed like a good idea, disappointed it hasn't made it into the main source.
13:24<@Alberth>it's too hacky, imho
13:24<@Alberth>soupy: maybe in the "new map features" topic in the development forum?
13:24<@Alberth>it is a fork of openttd, maybe they have such a thing included
13:24<chillcore>soupy: the last version is floating around in its topic, for my patchpack go here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47622
13:24<soupy>Gotcha.
13:25<chillcore>mind that newer NewGRF might not work
13:25<@Alberth>and they tend to have prebuilt binaries too
13:25<chillcore>Also other patchpacks are available ;)
13:27<soupy>I don't want to break other NewGRFs for this one function... I guess I'll stick to periodic open spots in my lines for signalling for now.
13:28<chillcore>Alberth: you have full control by using the height value that is in the load heightmap gui ... that value is not tied to max_height IIRC
13:28<@Alberth>soupy: just build several tunnels next to each other
13:28<soupy>I don't know why that never occured to me...
13:29<@Alberth>people tend to try the first idea they get working in the way they want it
13:30<@Alberth>even if it's not the best idea
13:30<soupy>Ah, that is the truth.
13:30<chillcore>Alberth: hehe we change max_height level on the fly when loading the heightmap ...
13:30<@Alberth>so the trick is to know when to discard a solution :)
13:31<@Alberth>chillcore: the game should tell me used height levels imho, or I cannot load anything safely
13:32<soupy>Oh man... Chill's pack also includes Cargo Distribution. That's the other thing I've been a-Googlin'.
13:32<@Alberth>it's in stable :)
13:32<chillcore>^^^
13:32<@Alberth>about a year already :p
13:34<soupy>Well, I am now excited. I don't know how I've missed it in-game. The Let's Play I was watching with it on (Damage's Modded LP) seems to act differently.
13:34<soupy>I'll pay closer attention though and see what I'm doing wrong.
13:35<@Alberth>it's off by default? :)
13:36<chillcore>Alberth: "or I cannot load anything safely" I understand that. and it is exactly that that i want to solve by getting rid of an ever changing value ,in multiple guis, that makes absolutely no sense
13:37<chillcore>to me thtat is
13:37<soupy>Hey now, I never claimed I was a clever man...
13:37<@Alberth>you're going to fix all image generating programs in the world chillcore?
13:37<chillcore>we do not need to ...
13:37<chillcore>we load heightmaps whatever their colour may be
13:38<chillcore>you still get to choose the height of the result
13:38<@Alberth>soupy: no harm intended, just pointing out a possible reason why you missed it
13:38<soupy>I know, man. It's all good.
13:38<chillcore>but while choosing you will not be changing 'that' value ;)
13:39<chillcore>it will just be a number that needs no saving
13:39<chillcore>in the load heightmap gui that is
13:39<@Alberth>hmm, you're going to throw away scaling?
13:40<chillcore>scaling agains the gryscale will be there
13:40<chillcore>no changes to make
13:40<chillcore>except thet setting it is tied to
13:40<chillcore>maybe I should just do
13:40<chillcore>and let the code speak
13:41<chillcore>or rather the gamplay
13:41<chillcore>good idea?
13:41<@Alberth>well, you've lost me then, for now at least
13:41<chillcore>I'll just do it
13:41<chillcore>and let you guys decide
13:41<@Alberth>yeah, I'll find some random heightmaps to load :p
13:42<chillcore>coolios
13:42<@Alberth>I think I have a staircase somewhere :p
13:42<chillcore>if all works will you then apply :evil_grin:
13:42<@Alberth>s/evil/big/
13:43<chillcore>aha the staircase ... i should have it here somewhere ... still
13:43<@Alberth>that map is fun, I made a test map with some heights, uploaded it to bananas
13:43<@Alberth>it's totally unplayable, yet downloaded a zillion times :p
13:43<chillcore>Alberth yeah thanks for correcting ... I forgot the 'twisted' part
13:44<chillcore>I'll do my tgen gui after MHL fixes ;)
13:44<chillcore>s fixes/changes
13:45<@Alberth>it would be nice if tgen gui could be done in a new worldgen gui, but that may be a long time
13:46<chillcore>btw to generate a nice map from the heightmap I posted ... 57 is the magic nr ;)
13:47<chillcore>still going to wait to post it
13:47<chillcore>Alberth: yeah I agree might be a while ... I have a lot to learn still when it comes to guis ...
13:49<chillcore>brb
13:56<chillcore>re
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14:09<andythenorth>o/
14:09*andythenorth delurks
14:10<andythenorth>been looking at cats
14:10<chillcore>meow
14:10<V453000>asdf
14:16<Marty>:/
14:17*chillcore whoppas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZVvx8kJ7VI
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14:27<Marty>V453000: I just saw the post about RAWR at openttdcoop.. very nice. But howcome it is a GRF and not installed though the check online content menu like zBase?
14:27<Marty>I mean you cant really choose Rawr in the game option menu
14:28<V453000>it is a newgrf, not a base set
14:29<V453000>so you can load it as a static newgrf, since it uses no functions
14:29<Marty>What is the difference between a base graphic set and a newgrf then?
14:30<Marty>Or where can I read more about this?
14:30<V453000>you can select a base set at the game menu :)
14:30<V453000>idk probably nowhere
14:30<V453000>but you can read how to apply a static newgrf at the rawr wiki
14:30<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/rawr/wiki
14:30<Marty>oh okay. If rawr aimes to replace all sprites .. then it become a basic set I guess
14:30<@Alberth>in the source code, but it may be a bit very unreadable :p
14:31<@Alberth>Marty: I think that's the idea yeah, you cannot have a base set that is not complete. This is an easy way to test the sprites without having to be complete
14:32<Marty>Okay then I have understood it kind of correct then.
14:32<V453000>yeah pretty much
14:32<@Alberth>in particular, a base set also have eg gui things, that V may not want to draw at all
14:32<V453000>also, the newgrf allows me to do shenanigans with parameters
14:32<Marty>The NewGRF system works pretty well
14:32<V453000>I want to eventually draw everything without exceptions Alberth, but yeah ... eventually is time
14:33<Marty>I like what you have done so far
14:33<@Alberth>Marty: for some value of "well", yep :)
14:34<V453000>I would like it to be nicer, the quality is ok but not great
14:37*andythenorth ponders Hogs
14:39<Marty>In time Im sure it will work out
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14:41<TartarusMkII>Heya, I'm new to Open TTD and quite like it. I am wondering though, how do I get goods as a resource to be picked up? From the beginning of the game, I see my road vehicles can pick up passengers and mail, but goods trucks are not picking anything up. Why is that? I got a message saying that valuables were not available in a certain town- so is it
14:41<TartarusMkII>a progression type thing? Please do let me know!
14:43<frosch123>only raw industries produce on their own
14:43<frosch123>processing industries only produce if you deliver raw cargos to them
14:43<frosch123>so, start with coal or wood
14:43<frosch123>or oil
14:43<TartarusMkII>So then where do "goods" come from?
14:43<TartarusMkII>Or is that what "goods" is refering to?
14:44<frosch123>oil well -> oil -> refinery -> goods -> town
14:44<frosch123>forest -> wood -> saw mill -> goods -> town
14:44<TartarusMkII>Oh I see, goods is a product like steel? Okay, I thought it was something generic.
14:44<frosch123>farm -> grain/livestock -> factory -> goods -> town
14:44<TartarusMkII>oh okay I see, I see.
14:44<TartarusMkII>cool.
14:45<TartarusMkII>Yea, I've never played a game like this except one iOS game where you'd do that sort of feeder service tihng
14:45<TartarusMkII>but beyond that, I'm just exploring. Right now I have a big feeder service for a dual city metro area feeding a train to send off to a small town, which has its own small feeder to send mail and passengers back
14:45<TartarusMkII>and I'm glad I got the orders correct so that the feeder works right, transfering people so that the money is made when the train reaches its furthest destination
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14:48<TartarusMkII>ALso, I am wondering, how can I carve rail or roads through farm lands to get to the farm building? Can I just.. build through it? Or what do I have to do?
14:48<@Alberth>indeed pax is one of the easiest ways to get some understanding of things
14:48<@Alberth>you can just build at it, no problem
14:48<@Alberth>it's just more expensive
14:48<TartarusMkII>Okay cool, thanks.
14:48<@Alberth>which depending on your amount of money may or may not be a problem :p
14:50<TartarusMkII>There is a steel mill in the middle of a city I'm using, and it'd be a huge pain to build a rail way there- but the iron is far away, but a straight shot. Do you think I should build a road way all the way out there, or rail?
14:50<@Alberth>you can get more loan, but at some point you cannot pay the interest any more :p
14:50<TartarusMkII>Like, to give the network its own little local railway
14:51<@Alberth>I heavily prefer trains, so I'd build a track, but I know others use trams and RVs (road vehicles)
14:51<@Alberth>and I'd probably find a steel mill outside a town :p
14:52<TartarusMkII>why outside of town?
14:52<@Alberth>less pain in getting space
14:52<TartarusMkII>ah true true.
14:52<@Alberth>it depends on how much iron you want to move to it though
14:53<TartarusMkII>I notice in some forum screenshots for the graphics packs I can download from the Open TTD client, ther'es a lot of packs made for a really high resolution. What's the deal with that? I'm afraid to download any extra graphics.
14:53-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-219-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:53<@Alberth>you mean zoom in?
14:54<@Alberth>yes you can look at things at very close range if you like, you can set max zoom in
14:54<@Alberth>upto 4x
14:55<@Alberth>graphic artists, and people making eye candy like high resolution stuff, as it gives more details
14:55<Marty>why afraid?
14:55<@Alberth>but you can play everything at 'normal' zoom if you like
14:55<@Alberth>or at 2x zoom, or at 4x zoom, just select what you want
14:57*andythenorth was afraid of newgrf for ~2 years
14:57<andythenorth>it seemed like I was hacking OpenTTD and would break the game
14:58<TartarusMkII>Like here
14:58<TartarusMkII>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=70494
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14:58<TartarusMkII>My game doesn't look like that at all.
15:04<TartarusMkII>=o
15:05<@Alberth>oh, that is mostly zBase
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15:05<@Alberth>I assume you have OpenGFX now as base set
15:05<@Alberth>or the base set of the original TTD CD-rom
15:06<@Alberth>but there is also a 32bpp baseset (and yes in 1x, 2x, or 4x, your pick)
15:06<TartarusMkII>Yea, I guess I am using OpenGFX
15:06<TartarusMkII>so I am using 8 by default?
15:06<@Alberth>8 ?
15:07<TartarusMkII>the other setting of bpp. Sorry, alien to me. lol
15:07<@Alberth>oh, 8bpp?
15:07<@Alberth>depends
15:07<@Alberth>if you load a 32bpp newgrf, or if your system cannot handle 8bpp, it will switch to 32bpp by itself
15:07<@Alberth>note that the number of available colours has nothing to do with the number of used colours
15:08<@Alberth>it's perfectly possible to use < 256 colours of the 256^3 that exist in 32bpp
15:08<TartarusMkII>I see, I See.
15:09<TartarusMkII>So in OpenGFX, those chinese trains might look a bit odd and out of place?
15:09<@Alberth>yeah, you get more details with those trains and blocky graphics for the rest
15:10<@Alberth>that's why people use zbase, as it has fullt detail all the way to 4x
15:10<TartarusMkII>It does look pretty cool, but the original GFX are so charming! X3
15:10<@Alberth>but if you don't like it, or never use it, it's just wasted resources :)
15:11<@Alberth>I fully agree with you, I don't like the clean 32bpp sprites at all
15:11<TartarusMkII>Hehe why not?
15:11<kamnet>me is waiting for OpenGFX 8bpp Extra Zoom baseset ;-)
15:11<@Alberth>too clean, too generated look
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15:12<@Alberth>kamnet may be waiting for a very long time :p
15:12<@Alberth>RAWR could be the answer, haven't really looked at it, but knowing the author, it's going to be awesome
15:12<kamnet>I waited 10+ years to stop pirating Transport Tycoon Deluxe :P
15:13<kamnet>Another 7 to finally stop using TTD's base set
15:13<frosch123>opengfx is from 2007
15:13<@Alberth>I just bought the CD-rom :p
15:13<frosch123>so only 12 years after original
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15:13<Marty>I have completly forgotten how the original TTD looks
15:14<TartarusMkII>hahaha
15:14<@Alberth>I tried that again recently, it looks much nicer than opengfx, imho, more details
15:14<frosch123>kamnet: ottd is older than ttd was when ottd started :p
15:14<kamnet>Somebody's been posting screenshots from original TTD. IMO, it looks dreadful LOL
15:14<@Alberth>yeah, that were great shots :)
15:15<kamnet>I'll grant you there's a lot more detail in TTD vs. OpenGFX, but everything is darker, looks more dirty and depressing
15:15<TartarusMkII>the transport industry is depressing
15:15<TartarusMkII>LOL
15:15<kamnet>Exactly! This is supposed to be a FUN GAME. If I wanted entirely realistic I'd go step outside.
15:16<@Alberth>remove everything but toyland!
15:16<chillcore>:P
15:16<kamnet>But I'd have to drive 20 miles to my closest railyard to go sit and be emo about it all.
15:19<Marty>Haha though life kamnet
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15:19<kamnet>Yeah all the rail lines were abandoned and sold off in my town in the 1970s. All we have left is the old station that's been vandalized and partially burned down by vandals.
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15:21<Marty>I live in the city but modern rail are very disapointing by comparison
15:21<@Alberth>kamnet: I am wondering why your aero train doesn't crash into the side wall?
15:21<Marty>basicly no cargo is moved by train where I live
15:21<TartarusMkII>I live in New York, and I believe the Long Island Rail Road here is the most used passenger rail service in the US? But I forget.
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15:22<kamnet>Alberth: I'm guessing because of a cushion of air building up on the sides between the wings and walls.
15:23<@Alberth>yeah, must be something like that
15:23<kamnet>The big challenge of the real life technology has been controlling pitch and yaw, to basically stop it from taking off like a plane and then twisting in the wind.
15:24<@Alberth>sounds like another big problem :p
15:25-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B668.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:25<kamnet>Interesting: BNSF is the world's largest private consumer of diesel, gasoline and other petroleum products. It is second globally behind the United States Navy.
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15:29<frosch123>i would have expected some airline
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15:30<Samu>hi
15:30<Samu>AMD plays transport tycoon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3dUhep0rBs
15:33<soupy>So, I'm trying to figure out what my standard train length should be. I've gone over it a few times, and the only upside I can see to having more than 4 spaces long is less actual vehicles.
15:34<andythenorth>V453000: 32bpp FIRS?
15:34<TartarusMkII>Isn't there some kind of bonus to having a station 4 sspaces or larger?
15:34*andythenorth considers replying in the thread
15:34<soupy>Seems to me that smaller trains are way better. They improve station ratings, faster service, and can move goods much faster.
15:35<@Alberth>they lack capacity
15:35<andythenorth>not per hour
15:35<andythenorth>or whatever
15:35<andythenorth>capacity only matters as a rate measure
15:35<soupy>I don't think there's a bonus for having a larger station, but there is a penalty if your train is longer than the platform.
15:35<andythenorth>or capacity matters because long trains look cool
15:35<andythenorth>and mess up your network
15:35<soupy>Right...
15:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: ok, you need more platforms?
15:35<andythenorth>yair
15:35<andythenorth>or just 2
15:36<andythenorth>and some kind of holding thing
15:36<soupy>I really would love to have huge long trains pummeling down the tracks, but it just doesn't make any sense as far as gameplay goes.
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15:37<@Alberth>you can do that with feeders
15:37<@Alberth>short trains from industry to a central point, then long trains to some further away destination
15:37<andythenorth>1 tile trains are best :P
15:38<andythenorth>continous flow
15:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: hmm, running costs,perhaps ?
15:38<andythenorth>maybe
15:38<andythenorth>also bedtime :)
15:38<andythenorth>bye
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15:39<@Alberth>bye andy :)
15:39<soupy>I still haven't scienced the whole "transfer" thing. How the paychecks work with timing, etc..
15:39<@Alberth>clock starts running when loading cargo
15:40<@Alberth>faster delivery == more money
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15:40<@Alberth>clock stops when you unload or transfer
15:41<@Alberth>payment is at the end of the feeder chain, but you get virtual payments for the vehicles along the way, so they don't go into the red
15:42<soupy>So if we had A feeding B, which is transferred and taken to destination C, there's no time penalty for how long it sits at B?
15:42<@Alberth>no, but there is station rating. if it drops too low, cargo disappears
15:45<soupy>Well I guess that makes sense.
15:48<soupy>Huh, you only start losing cargo at <50% station rating... That should be easy to maintain.
15:49<Samu>slope steepness
15:49<soupy>Beginning to think trucks might have a use after all.
15:49<Samu>put 10% on it
15:49<Samu>create some alpinist kind of map
15:50<Samu>and see trains cry
15:50<@Alberth>soupy: I don't care about money at all, it's dead easy to get loads of it
15:50<soupy>This is true.
15:51<Samu>i just don't like multi-engines defeating the purpose of slope steepness
15:52<@Alberth>but it looks great, several steam engines pulling up a train along the hill
15:53<@Alberth>imho the purpose of slope steepness is making multi-engines required
15:54<Samu>:(
15:54<@Alberth>why? you rather want to do it with just one?
15:55<Samu>slope steepness would force either shorter trains or look into an alternative type of transportation
15:55<Samu>trucks
15:56<@Alberth>there is nothing stopping you from doing so
15:57<Samu>or if intending to use long trains, then more careful route plan
15:58<Samu>tunnels, bridge, going around a hill
15:59<Samu>if i recall this was the topic that got me banned
15:59<soupy>Generally by the time I've gotten far enough in that my infrastructure really matters, I have enough money to just terraform everything anyway. :)
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16:05<@Alberth>Samu: there is nothing stopping from doing so
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16:27<__ln__>https://cs7056.vk.me/c540103/v540103904/37ea5/6BZK0yPelSw.jpg
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16:35<soupy>Does the available airport list rely on anything other than the year? Yesterday I found that I had the late-game aircraft, but the biggest airport I was allowed to build was a commuter, not nearly big enough.
16:38<soupy>Aaand I just noticed the dropdown at the top of the airport building window
16:38<@Alberth>:)
16:39<@planetmaker>soupy, all the default airports have no other criterion than the game year for availability limits
16:40<soupy>Aye, turns out I'm an idiot.
16:40<@planetmaker>but in principle it could be climate or other stuff, too, when NewGRFs change them. But I know of no such NewGRF (OpenGFX+ airports doesn't change availability)
16:40<@planetmaker>idiots are fools who don't learn. You just didn't see a (tiny) button. And OpenTTD has many
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16:41<soupy>Quite true.
16:41<@Alberth>not to mention all the hidden ones :p
16:42<Wolf01>'night
16:42<@planetmaker>yep, many of those, too :)
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16:42<@planetmaker>g'night, Wolf01
16:43<TartarusMkII>Hi again, guys. Is there a quick way to replace a vehicle with a new model and have it keep its orders, or no?
16:43-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit []
16:43<@planetmaker>there is. Autorenew (same model) or autoreplace (different model)
16:44<@planetmaker>https://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles#Autorenew and https://wiki.openttd.org/Replace_vehicles
16:44<TartarusMkII>Thankyou planetmaker =)
16:44<@planetmaker>it should be unified really. but isn't (yet?)
16:45<@Alberth>lots of things 'should' :)
16:45<@planetmaker>yup :)
16:49<TartarusMkII>So, I made a dock next to an oil refinery with a ship dock thing, made an oil tanker, gave it orders to go to an oil field, then go to the refinery, but when it goes to the oilfield, it just turns around and never picks anything up. Thoughts?
16:50<@Alberth>oil only gets delivered (and accepted, for that matter) at a few tiles
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16:50<@Alberth>maybe your dock is out of reach?
16:51<TartarusMkII>the dock says Accepts: Oil
16:51-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
16:51<TartarusMkII>But it's not even picking up the oil from the oilfield to begin with =v
16:51<@planetmaker>does it have full load orders? was it the first trip?
16:51<TartarusMkII>it was the first trip, but it did have full load orders
16:51<@Alberth>accepts is at the refinery side, isn't it ?
16:52<TartarusMkII>Yes
16:52<@Alberth>which is not 'pickup' :)
16:52<TartarusMkII>Okay now the ship is loading up for what ever reason. Oh well =x
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16:52<chillcore>when playing with cargodist you make an empty trip to establish a route ... once the route exist it will start picking up cargo too ;)
16:52<chillcore>as you just found out xD
16:53<TartarusMkII>interesting. thanks
16:53<@Alberth>not really needed, you just have to wait for cdist to pick up the route
16:53<chillcore>your welcome
16:53<@Alberth>and going through the route empty is one way to spend that time :)
16:53<chillcore>ah it reads the orders without making the trip now ... cool
16:54<@Alberth>it monitors orders being changed
16:54<chillcore>nice nice
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16:54<@Alberth>but calculation starts every X days, and takes Y days
16:54<@Alberth>so it takes a while before you notice it
16:54<TartarusMkII>So, how do I get the oil from the docks to the refinery? do I need to set it as a transfer order? and then what? It's already in range (as it says it accepts oil)
16:55<@Alberth>build a second dock
16:55<@Alberth>but you won't make any worthwhile money
16:55<@Alberth>as transport distance is ~0 :)
16:56<TartarusMkII>It would generate goods though, no?
16:56<@Alberth>gn
16:56<@Alberth>sure
16:56<chillcore>good night alberth
16:56<TartarusMkII>I'm confused, why the second dock would be necessary since it's already connected
16:56<TartarusMkII>but thanks I appreciate your help so far!
16:56<soupy>Thanks for the help Alberth
16:57<@Alberth>you cannot deliver cargo to the originating station
16:57<TartarusMkII>Ther'es only one dock involved, and it's connected to the refinery already which is why it says it accepts oil, I thought
16:57<@Alberth>to not totally mess up your transport, make sure the 2nd dock is out of reach of the oil field
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16:58<TartarusMkII>Does anyone else know how I mean? =x
16:59<TartarusMkII>Oh nevermind, it does seem tohave worked, just took more time.
16:59<TartarusMkII>I just wonder why the goods that the refinery produces is not seen by the docks
17:00<chillcore>you do not have a vehicle picking up the goods there?
17:01<TartarusMkII>So until I make a vehicle like a goods carrier pick up from the dock (or with a truck stop attached for example) they won't even appear?
17:03<luaduck>is there any chance max_heightlevel could be made an unlocked cvar so we can change it in the middle of network games?
17:03<luaduck>we're stuck on 60 at the moment and everyone's complaining
17:05<Supercheese>jeez, must be some steeeep slopes
17:05<Supercheese>that or a huge map
17:09<chillcore>luaduck ... changing it midgame is a bad idea ...
17:09<luaduck>either that or have it tied to the map
17:10<chillcore>I have my opinion about that setting ... noone agrees
17:10<luaduck>ie have it saved with the save file at generation time
17:10<chillcore>anyhoo ... what is it you want to do?
17:11<chillcore>higher lower?
17:11<@planetmaker>luaduck, changing the max height level in the middle of a network game will not be possible. It's newgrf-readable, thus changing that is a desync cause
17:11<chillcore>^^^
17:11<luaduck>peg it back down to 30 for the next map
17:11<luaduck>yeah I guess you're right planetmaker
17:11<chillcore>that you can do yes
17:11<chillcore>or use some heightmaps ;)
17:11<luaduck>right now I'm going to have to be awake at 5am for the next map cycle to kill the server, change it in openttd.cfg, then restart
17:11<chillcore>someone must know how to rotate them
17:12<chillcore>without shutting down the server
17:12<@planetmaker>you can rcon set the mapgen variables
17:12<luaduck>except max_heightlevel can't be rcon set
17:12<@planetmaker>or newgame.XXX or something like that
17:13<@planetmaker>not those of the existing. It's a difference
17:13<luaduck>unless you think tweaking the generation settings is a better idea than directly modifying the heightlevel
17:14<@planetmaker>change config, reload config
17:15<luaduck>won't that just ignore the config file when it reloads because it's a cvar that can't be changed while the server's live?
17:15<@planetmaker> !rcon list_settings. Find the one which relates to newgames and heightlevel. Change that
17:15-!-planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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17:15-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #debian-mentors #/r/openttd @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop.bots @+#openttdcoop +#openttd.dev +#openDune #oftc #freerct #debian
17:15<luaduck>lol
17:16<luaduck>wait am I being an oldfag, is reload_cfg an option
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17:24<chillcore>luaduck: no idea about reloading configs
17:24<chillcore>_settings_game.construction.max_heightlevel
17:24<luaduck>just complains about it being a network game
17:24<luaduck>unless I'm missing something
17:24<luaduck>I pushed it to the config and set reload_cfg on
17:24<luaduck>will see if it works tonight
17:25<chillcore>I am really sorry for the mapgeneration results ... I feel responsable :/
17:25<chillcore>hope it works out for you ;)
17:27<chillcore>if you need heightmaps with big playable mountains give me a buzz
17:27<kamnet>Damnit Supercheese, quit ruining my dreams!!!
17:27<Supercheese>Sorry, I just tried with a test grf
17:27<Supercheese>and it does not work
17:28<Supercheese>:(
17:28<Supercheese> aerotrain would be perfectly viable as a new railtype though
17:28<kamnet>wel, yeah, that's easy enough. :D
17:29<kamnet>(well, easy enough for somebody familiar with coding trains)
17:29<kamnet>(which isn't me. I just dream crap up only for people to shoot it down!)
17:30<kamnet>CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! *rips clothes off*
17:32<Supercheese>Calm down there Monty ;)
17:33*chillcore really has to resist giving luaduck a modified version that allows vanilla players
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17:41<TartarusMkII>I am having an issue with Auto Renew. I am concerned that I am asking all of my busses to convert to Leopard Busses, even the Leopard Busses I already have. I keep getting messages from the busses saying autorenew failed (money limit) but I have like, $200,000. What is wrong? =s
17:42<+glx>and what is the limit you set for autorenew ?
17:43<TartarusMkII>I don't see anything about setting a limit =x
17:43<TartarusMkII>And I am not even trying to renew, just replace.
17:44<TartarusMkII>I used the road vehicles menu on AllVehicles (because I dont have all of my Regals in one section), then click manage list to replace, then clic kregal bus to leopard bus, then I click Start Replacing, then I used the road vehicles manager to "send for maintenance" seemingly on the whole list (which I'm oka ywith, just to learn how this works)
17:45<TartarusMkII>I tried to do this for my oil tankers too, and they just are not doing it.
17:46<TartarusMkII>In the menu I see the arrow circle which seems to denote that they are pending replacement..
17:46<+glx>when autorenew is enabled every old vehicle are renewed to new one of same model when visiting depot (depends on autorenew settings)
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17:46<TartarusMkII>but they don't seem to be replacing when they go to depots, since these old things are constantly exploding
17:47<+glx>auto replace is done for all models ignoring age
17:47<+glx>of course following the auto replace rules you set
17:47<TartarusMkII>where do I set such rules?
17:47<TartarusMkII>now it says autorenew failed on ship 6 (money limit), but I ahve $244,000 lol
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17:48<+glx>the money limit is somewhere in the game settings
17:49<TartarusMkII>Okay I found it, so lets see..
17:50<TartarusMkII>Nah, this autorenew stuff in the option is not what I mean.
17:50<TartarusMkII>https://wiki.openttd.org/Replace_vehicles
17:50<TartarusMkII>I mean this.
17:50<+glx>then ignore the autorenew messages :)
17:50<+glx>they are not related
17:50<NGC3982>http://skarmdump.henjoh.se/255710_2015-04-06_00001.png
17:51<TartarusMkII>I appreciate the help anyway ^^; but is any other advice available?
17:52<TartarusMkII>NGC3982: wow that looks awesome what game is that
17:52<+glx>The company needs to have more money than (autoreplace money limit) + 2 * (price for new vehicles).
17:52<+glx>
17:52<+glx> Auto Replace does not consider the sell price of old vehicles.
17:52<+glx> The auto replace money limit is the same limit as the Autorenew minimum needed money configured in Advanced Settings.
17:52<NGC3982>TartarusMkII: Cities Skylines.
17:54<+glx>so what is the limit in the settings ?
17:54<TartarusMkII>Oh I'm gonna buy that soon
17:54<TartarusMkII>ok lets see.
17:55<chillcore>good night all
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17:55<TartarusMkII>glx: the limit for me is 200,000 so I guess it would make sense then, that the game required +2* the price
17:56<TartarusMkII>I guess I can lower it for my own self a bit since I don't like to have so much liquid casherino
17:56<+glx>you can lower the limit yes
17:57<TartarusMkII>Thanks I appreciate it =D
17:57<TartarusMkII>In the world generation, what is "variety distribution"?
17:59<+glx>https://wiki.openttd.org/Variety_distribution
17:59<TartarusMkII>oh thanks man, I apologize
17:59<TartarusMkII>I am not used to wikis as good as the one we have for OTDD
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18:18<Supercheese>Hmmm, should the Seaplane version of the airport have lower maintenance costs...?
18:18<Supercheese>it is mostly water, after all
18:23<Supercheese>Oh wow, the Small airport is already at minimum maintenance costs when using Av8...
18:23<Supercheese>unless it can go negative
18:25<Supercheese>Guess I won't mess with it then
18:26<Supercheese>It's a shame that airports do not have an animation trigger for "When airplane lands"
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18:31<ChrisM>Is it right that a path signal reserves the track including the next signal if it's a block signal, but doesn't reserve that track if it's another path signal?
18:32<kamnet>Yes
18:32<ChrisM>Thanks
18:34<ChrisM>Why are they treated differently?
18:36<kamnet>Block signals are a holdover from TTD, retained in part for backwards compatability. PBS is a new signal system on top of it.
18:37<ChrisM>Ah
18:37<ChrisM>Entry/exit signals are treated like the block signals too
18:37<ChrisM>It's not a big deal, I think I just to need to stick in another signal (:
18:41<kamnet>I typically only play with PBS.
18:44<ChrisM>I'm mixing them to do a priority merge
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19:41<TartarusMkII>Hey guys, question. I put train depots in a lot of places along a long train line so that there'd be close by places to fix problems. But my trains still prefer one specific depot (that isn't even the oldest or anything), and I don't know why.
19:41<TartarusMkII>Is this normal, or no
19:42<supermop>yo
19:44<TartarusMkII>o/
19:44<Supercheese>I'm not sure, you don't order them to go to a specific depot do you?
19:45<TartarusMkII>no. WHen they break down, sometimes they just keep going, but sometimes they need to go to a depot first, and they seem to choose not the closest one for this.
19:48<Supercheese>Ah, I do not enable breakdowns, so I can't help you there
19:49<TartarusMkII>why do you choose to do that?
19:50<TartarusMkII>Also, is there anything I can do to help industries produce more stuff? Like woods creating wood?
19:55<Supercheese>With the default industries, you must get as high a %cargo transported as possible
19:55<+glx>and always have a vehicle waiting
19:55<Supercheese>So, build a station nearby and take cargo, trying to ensure there's always one vehicle loading in the station at all times
19:56<Supercheese>ninja'd
19:56<Supercheese>grr
19:56<Supercheese>also try and use the fastest vehicles possible
19:58<+glx>and industries prefer young vehicles too IIRC
19:58<Supercheese>yes, but there's not much to be done there
19:58<Supercheese>could build statues too if you have the $$$
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20:02<TartarusMkII>Statues?
20:03<Supercheese>Yes, click the town name, Local Authority, build statue
20:03<Supercheese>it will boost your station ratings which boost your %transported which increase the chance the default industries will increase produciton
20:03<Supercheese>but it is rather expensive
20:04<TartarusMkII>I don't see town name- also because it's just one business. Do you mean for towns themselves?
20:04<Supercheese>Here: https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Industry_production
20:05<Supercheese>the full rundown on default industries
20:05<Supercheese>Also: https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
20:06<TartarusMkII>thankyou a ton!
20:06<TartarusMkII>Also, what is the purpose of founding a town? I can't find a wiki page aobut it
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20:09<Supercheese>So you can have another town
20:09<Supercheese>that's really about it; also it is extremely expensive
20:09<supermop>pub stuff! Signage: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1146583#p1146583
20:11<TartarusMkII>ty ty
20:17<Supercheese>Pannier Bitter
20:17<Supercheese>Ha
20:18<Supercheese>It's funnier if you pronounce Bitter like a French word
20:18<supermop>heh
20:19<Supercheese>huh, I had never heard of the Moa before
20:19<Supercheese>now my knowledge of extinct species has increased
20:19<supermop>hah
20:19<supermop>they were pretty pretty big
20:19<Supercheese>no kidding, the skeletons are amazing
20:20<supermop>the stupid pun arose from thinking Moa would be a good name for an EMU set
20:20<supermop>because i never do not think of the bird first when seeing EMU written out
20:21<supermop>but yeah the sign doesnt work if the moa is twice the size of the camel
20:22<supermop>isn't there a dutch DMU called kameel? man this is more of a multiple unit pun that i'd thought
20:22<supermop>emus, dmus, and metro-cammel all in one
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20:24<supermop>I think i'll do a ginzu lager and maybe a 4x stiyle shitty beer called 8P
20:30<Supercheese>You could do a Wills Pils
20:30<Supercheese>the Wills from arctic/tropical
20:32<supermop>i've almost bever played the default vehicles from the other climates
20:32<supermop>i only had tto, not ttd in the 90s so i never spent years with them pre-newgrf
20:33<supermop>i could do more american style beers and ads for those climates
20:34<supermop>australia is weird with generally more american style trains and trucks, but more british style beers
20:34<supermop>building styles vary from region to region
20:34<supermop>but Melbourne best described as a hotter drier englang
20:35<supermop>england
20:35<supermop>with bitter ales as the defacto mass beer
20:35<supermop>the QLD beers are a bit more american/german
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21:35<TartarusMkII>I am wondering if anyone has, on hand, any screen shots of someone's set up in the early game.
21:40<Supercheese>Well, I do but I use dozens of newgrfs
21:40<TartarusMkII>I'm still interested in what yo u choose to do =)
21:40<Supercheese>if you're using default industries and vehicles you may in certain cases want to be doing things differently
21:40<Supercheese>Maybe I should start a screenshot thread
21:41<TartarusMkII>Yea, right now I am just focusing on trains for some reeeeeallllly basic stuff
21:42<Supercheese>well I'll just upload some on third party sites for now
21:43<Supercheese>Interested in trains eh?
21:43<TartarusMkII>I actually wanted to prolong the time I had until I had to upgrade vehicles, so I start the game in 1925 lol
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21:44<TartarusMkII>So I can only use trains to start (and I'm fine with that)
21:44<Supercheese>I'll post some shots from the game I started in 1912
21:44<TartarusMkII>cool thanks
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21:44<TartarusMkII>my trains are starting to lose money rather than make it, not sure what to do aobut it <..>
21:45<TartarusMkII>oh I see, the mine they were getting ore from closed down and I didn't ntoice
21:45<TartarusMkII>why would it do that?
21:46<Supercheese>sometimes the default industries just go kaput
21:46<Supercheese>they are annoying like that
21:46<Supercheese>it's covered on the Game mechanics page I linked earlier
21:46<TartarusMkII>damn. so what do I do with the infrastructure I built for it? >..<
21:46<Supercheese>well.... mostly sell it
21:47<Supercheese>divert the trains elsewhere if it's connected to your network
21:47<Supercheese>if you have a network
21:47<TartarusMkII>*nod nods*
21:47<TartarusMkII>I see.
21:48<Supercheese>Here's the first train route I built: http://i.imgur.com/wJikVub.png
21:48<Supercheese>To begin the game I started with lots of ships
21:48<Supercheese>since FIRS has fishing grounds
21:48<Supercheese>The foundry at the bottom is fed scrap metal from that line...
21:49<Supercheese>...and bauxite from this station that is transferred by ships as shown in the first: http://i.imgur.com/o0ykeTf.png
21:49<TartarusMkII>I see, interesting
21:50<TartarusMkII>Oh that's a cool structure
21:50<Supercheese>The metal from the foundry, in turn, produces supplies which are fed back to the scrapyard and bauxite mine
21:50<Supercheese>there's also a pumping station at the oil well shown there
21:50<Supercheese>with an oil pipeline running to a refinery offscreen
21:50<TartarusMkII>oh hah, that's really neat.
21:50<TartarusMkII>I like those sets you've added, they fit with the art style that I prefer.
21:51<TartarusMkII>I'd try to download stuff but I'd worry about accidentally getting something that is not compatible or would not fit
21:51<Supercheese>Yeah I have, let's see... I have 72 grfs, not all of which actually do something (some are just dummy grfs)
21:51<TartarusMkII>Very intreresting lay out.
21:51<TartarusMkII>why dummys?
21:52<Supercheese>to organize the list
21:52<TartarusMkII>lol that's interesting
21:52<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=154807
21:52<Supercheese>things can get messy so I divide the list up
21:52<Supercheese>helps keep things sane
21:52<Supercheese>that is not the exact list I am using for the game I'm currently on
21:53<TartarusMkII>holy crap haha wow
21:53<Supercheese>but it's a good example of how things can get out of hand
21:53<TartarusMkII>yea, totally
21:56<TartarusMkII>I guess my biggest confusion is how to best use my starting $200k
21:56<Supercheese>Ah, well, I use the money cheat :O
21:57<TartarusMkII>pssh ;p
21:57<TartarusMkII>I like the challenge
21:57<Supercheese>However, a coal-hauling route is often desirable in early years
21:57<Supercheese>with default industries
21:57<Supercheese>aircraft can be insanely profitable but only in later years
21:59<TartarusMkII>I noticed that the coal hauling makes a lot of money, yea
21:59<TartarusMkII>should I find a power plant with a couple coal mines nearby and just go hard, dumping as much of the coal on the power plant as possible to encourage more production from the mines?
22:00<Supercheese>would be a good idea, but don't choose coal mines that are too close
22:00<Supercheese>transporting coal over longer distances is more profitable
22:00<Supercheese>and if you're purely interested in abusing game mechanics for profit...
22:01<TartarusMkII>=o
22:01<Supercheese>then try and build a station piece on the far side of the coal mine, then ctrl+build to join the station you really will use on the closer side
22:01<Supercheese>the distance that counts for profit is from one station sign to the other sign
22:01<Supercheese>so if you "cheat" and make the signs far away while keeping the actual rails much closer, you gain more profit
22:04<Supercheese>For example: http://i.imgur.com/CdJZQ34.png
22:04<TartarusMkII>oh I see lol wow
22:04<Supercheese>Note how the actual signs are farther away that the train route
22:04<Supercheese>this can be abused up to the maximum station spread allowed
22:05<TartarusMkII>that's hilarious
22:05<TartarusMkII>http://i.imgur.com/o0ykeTf.png
22:05<Supercheese>also: trains running diagonally, like the primary track shown, make more money than horizontally
22:05<TartarusMkII>also here, why do you have so many signals?
22:05<Supercheese>this one I'm not quite as sure why
22:06<Supercheese>Well, I eventually boosted the output of that bauxite mine that I need eleven trains to keep up with the production
22:06<Supercheese>so I needed enough signals so that the eleven trains could keep running
22:06<Supercheese>I planned for this early on so I wouldn't have to change too much to increase capacity
22:06<Supercheese>just clone some more trains
22:08<TartarusMkII>are those rails that narrow down into just one rail line each on the west and east side like, one way or something?
22:08<Supercheese>yes, the red & white bar on the signals means one-way signals
22:08<Supercheese>so the trains loop around as shown, so they do not have to reverse and block the path of other trains
22:08<Supercheese>the concept is known as Roll On, Roll Off, abbreviated as Ro-Ro
22:09<Supercheese>https://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_station#Ro-Ro
22:09<Supercheese>the wiki contains a wealth of information; I need to leave, be back in a bit
22:09<TartarusMkII>ty very much mate
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23:15<TartarusMkII>SO I've got a question: I have a bunch of trains serving a train station who's sole resource is coal from a coal mine. The coal mine is making more coal from all the stimulus, butthe station itself is not taking up this coal fast enough. Why is that?
23:17<Supercheese>the station only takes cargo from the mine in relation to its Station Rating
23:17<Supercheese>https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
23:17<Supercheese>so if Coal is rated 70% at that station, it will take 70% of the coal from the mine
23:18<Supercheese>it is essentially impossible to get a 100% rating
23:18<Supercheese>a perplexing design choice but that's the way it was in TTD
23:18<TartarusMkII>I See, thanks thanks
23:19<TartarusMkII>Sorry to make you post that again, now I understand the connection.
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