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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-07

---Logopened Tue Apr 07 00:00:23 2015
00:14<Flygon>Supercheese: Well
00:15<Flygon>You CAN get a 100% approval rating
00:15<Supercheese>jumping through hoops within hoops
00:15<Supercheese>it's highly nontrivial
00:15<Flygon>You just need to set up a bot to constantly advertise the hell out of your company atthe nearby city
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01:35<supermop>pub done
01:36<supermop>remaining pub details will wait until the next pub i do
01:36<Flygon>Oh man
01:36<Flygon>Looking at that pub
01:36<Flygon>Need a "Mad Max Town and Transport set"
01:37<Supercheese>Lookin niiiiice
01:38<supermop>i dont know why the yucca bush in the garden renders for the detail perspective, but not in the dimetric
01:46-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1002:8400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has joined #openttd
01:47<chillcore>good morning interwebz o/
01:49<supermop>yo chill
01:50<chillcore>hello supermop
01:50<chillcore>and how are you this morning?
01:52<supermop>it's a rainy afternoon for me
01:54<chillcore>I hate rain ... and it really is morning 06.53 to be exact
01:54<chillcore>the whole of europe has gone bananas and changed their clocks to a fictive hour ...
01:55<supermop>we justed changed the other way down here!
01:56<chillcore>hehe ... I have changed al my auto clocks back to winter time ...
01:56<chillcore>but I am thingking to change it to 7:25 now and using +-30mins all year round instead
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02:02<chillcore>I should really get cracking on changing MHL to do the right thing ... and not chase people away from wanting to play with moreheghtlevels
02:02<chillcore>just ... finding motivation
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02:12<chillcore>I had a better look at trunk yesterday ... this whole max_height thing is worse then I thought it was
02:13<chillcore>I can rewrite it ... but if I can't even get Devs to commit tgen light ...
02:14<chillcore>as in all of it as is ...
02:16<supermop>what does the max ht do?
02:17<chillcore>it should limit certain things ...
02:17<chillcore>eg snowline
02:18<chillcore>so NewGRF have something to base themselves on ...
02:18<chillcore>the sad thing is that anything even remotely smelling like maxheight is attached to that same value
02:19<chillcore>eg generating terrain from a a heightmap will set that value
02:20<chillcore>but generating a normal game will set that value too
02:20<chillcore>why is beyond me and completely not needed
02:20<chillcore>also snowline should not use it ... it should be set at game start and use the top tile at that moment to never change ingame
02:21<chillcore>same for tropical ... top tile and never change
02:21<chillcore>and that is just the start of it
02:22<chillcore>exporting heightmaps ... instead of preserving what the terrain actually is ... lets use that value again and use whatever comes out the other end
02:22<chillcore>so scenario editor can not get the map they used to have
02:23<chillcore>the most obvious thing ... maxheight at 255 and get maps that are nowhere near that
02:23<chillcore>normal mapgen that is
02:23<chillcore>all heightmaps on bananas ar fucked
02:23<chillcore>pardon me my french
02:23<chillcore>I can give you an example if you want
02:24<supermop>cant you just manually set snowline january and july?
02:24<chillcore>newgGRF use a percentage of that value
02:24<supermop>why does snow car what the max is, it should just snow on every tile above set line
02:26<Supercheese>Hmm, now I want to make Vintage Helidepots and Helistations...
02:26<Supercheese>Airship Stations
02:26<chillcore>sounds cool
02:27<Supercheese>should be able to re-use the tiles like I did for Vintage Commuter
02:28<chillcore>nice ... just make sure you re-use stuffs you're allowed to re-use
02:29<chillcore>you don't want some takedown notice chasing you
02:30<chillcore>but yeah maxheight ... all of the above is just the start of it
02:30<chillcore>I'll figure it out
02:30<chillcore>I need commit access :P
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02:32<Supercheese>yeah, I have no idea if the MariCo license is compatible with the OGFX+ one, so I probably won't be submitting the seaplane ports
02:32<Supercheese>but the rest only use the existing sprites
02:32<Supercheese>just rearranged
02:34<chillcore>hmm I'm not familiar with the MariCo license
02:34<Supercheese>I linked it along the screens I posted
02:35<chillcore>just anything that comes from simuscape you want to steer clear of ... with a wide curve
02:36<V453000>MariCo is from mb isnt it?
02:36<V453000>then either custom or no license I would assume :P
02:37<V453000>which is very not ogfx+
02:37<chillcore>ye ... let me check his license ... not all simuscape members are assholes
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02:41<chillcore>waiting for newgrfs to be scanned ... all 3421 of them ...
02:41<chillcore>waiting ...
02:41<chillcore>I need to move this thing ...
02:42<V453000>yeah I already did
02:43<V453000>I dont really use the old versions anymore anyway, and non-bananas stuff is just out of the question for multiplayer or sharing savegame with anybody
02:43<chillcore>it does not show here in the gui ... and these versins do not work so ...
02:43<Supercheese>It was .html alongside the downloaded archive
02:43<Supercheese>so OTTD likely will not read it
02:45<V453000> looks borken
02:45<chillcore>I dunno ... no https means "site is not gone" for as far as I am concerned
02:46<V453000>Copyright Notice MariCo Set - © 2010 - 2014 Michael Blunck - All Rights Reserved. Permission to use, copy and distribute this software (consisting of the graphics and its implementation code) and its documentation for non-commercial purposes, without fee and without a signed licensing agreement, is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice, this paragraph and the following four paragraphs appear in all copies and distributi
02:47<Supercheese>Suitable ambiguous
02:47<Supercheese>complete with ALLCAPS
02:47<chillcore>reads simuscape enough to me
02:48<V453000>just a normal non-free license
02:48<V453000>Pikka has a similar one doesnt he
02:48<chillcore>anyhoo modification is not allowed ... smple as that
02:48<Supercheese>Pikka has a minimalist license
02:48<Supercheese>like a single line
02:49<V453000>ok :)
02:49<Supercheese>and it can be read in OTTD
02:49<chillcore>ye me too "GPL v2 NOT later"
02:49<chillcore>v3 is evil shit
02:50<chillcore>means yo can take my code but you do not have ot give back the source
02:50<V453000>I thought that was the whole point of gpl XD
02:50<V453000>but yeah I heard v3 is bs
02:50<chillcore>lobby ... nuff said
02:50<Supercheese>I floundered around a bit and in the end chose a Creative Commons license, since I did not have permission to distribute sources with most of my grfs
02:51<chillcore>most peeps do not read and use v2 or later
02:51<chillcore>then some shit company comes along and sais "what source" I used v3
02:51<V453000>I also use CC BY SA
02:52<Supercheese>Yeah, I saw several of my favorite grfs did, so figured it couldn't be that bad eh
02:52<chillcore>I have a custom license for my minecrafft mod
02:52<chillcore>"don't be an asshole"
02:52<V453000>not just because of permissions but also because I do not wish for some idiot to come and say "give me code immediately" ... which I think is questionnable, but many discussions in this channel felt to me like "we dont know" :D
02:53<V453000>good license
02:53<V453000>hard to define asshole though :P
02:53<chillcore>I explained a little bit
02:54<Supercheese>Noli asinus esse
02:54<chillcore>"please re-use code or learn from it , please do not re-use textures and make your own model, so much more fun"
02:54<chillcore>"you may make a texture ... if good enough I will include it"
02:54<chillcore>something like that
02:55<chillcore>also no commercial use ... so not behind addfly links
02:55<chillcore>or shitty modpack
02:56<chillcore>^^^ tat has tracking built in
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02:58<chillcore>moar coffee before I plunge myself into this madness again
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03:00<supermop>idk what to license houses...
03:00<supermop>i want to keep a gulf between these stations, and houses
03:01<supermop>i want stations to be possible to go into a future ogfx+
03:02<supermop>houses... i'm not sure what i want to happen there but i want to use as a portfolio piece
03:02<chillcore>it is your sprites ... you can dual license
03:02<supermop>to show architecture firms that i was not totally wasting my time in aus
03:03<supermop>by doing a study of Melbourne vernacular architecture
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03:04<supermop>and using those models or sprites in a procedural house generator or something that explores the variations of building styles here
03:04<supermop>of course gpl should be ok for that
03:04<supermop>but there are a few odd bits
03:04<chillcore>as in?
03:04<supermop>like bracket i designed for pub sign, etched glass over pub door,
03:05<supermop>use amotife that i want to protect as logo or branding for my other design work; the furniture and products i design
03:05<supermop>logo is not trademarked yet as i am still experimenting with it
03:06<chillcore>hmm ok ...
03:06<supermop>but i think if i distribute is freely in there, then i cannot claim ownership of it later?
03:06<chillcore>you retain ownership
03:06<V453000>if you want anything to: 1. go with opengfx or any other GPLv2 thing, or 2. work on something with multiple people, then GPLv2 is probably the way to go
03:06<V453000>assuming you want to share full source
03:07<supermop>like i wanted to put wooden stool out back of pub, that i am sitting on right now
03:07<supermop>my own design and i built it
03:07<chillcore>go with something more closed for now ...
03:07<supermop>but if i have rendering of stool in a free set, can i still protect stool design when it comes to making the stool?
03:08<V453000>what do you mean protect?
03:08<V453000>nobody else can create the same or similar thing?
03:08<chillcore>hmm ...
03:08<V453000>OR re-sharing your source?
03:08<supermop>if i sell it then see same stool on alibaba for sale
03:09<V453000>if people re-share your source, re-use it or anything, they must say you made it, that is the point of the license
03:09<V453000>ha, that I am unsure about
03:09<supermop>actually i think it would be cool to release stool as free furniture (i give you designs for free, you build it yourself) as i designed it to be easy to make with just hand tools
03:09<V453000>but I mean, it would make sense
03:10<V453000>A) you provide it for free with license requirements of GPLv2, B) for people who need to use it in commercial use / not GPLv2, they can buy it with custom license - in that shop
03:10<chillcore>GPL v2 and others do not exlde comercial use
03:11<V453000>okay, still
03:11<chillcore>I am allowed to sell openttd
03:11<chillcore>or my patchpack for that matter
03:11<V453000>that sounds incorrect
03:11<V453000>but ok :D
03:11<chillcore>nope that is the way it is
03:11<chillcore>however ...
03:11<chillcore>say you buy a copy of me
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03:11<chillcore>I can not stop you from giving it away for free
03:12<V453000>that doesnt make sense to me, if you re-use GPLv2 things, you must use GPLv2 license, no? it is self-reproducive
03:12<supermop>or what if i want to sell furniture models on unreal or other marketplace for people to use in their levels...
03:12<chillcore>it is your work supermop
03:12<V453000>I would say it is still your thing and you are the author supermop so you can do whatever you want with it, under any circumstances
03:12<chillcore>I can sell your chair
03:12<chillcore>but I can not claim it as mine
03:13<chillcore>if I make the legs shorter I must state so
03:13<chillcore>so if it ends up wobbly your rep is not damaged
03:13<supermop>well i think it will be months before houses can ship as set as i have no coder and only one 'finished' model, and 8 black white cottages
03:14<chillcore>yeah don't add a license just yet ;)
03:14<chillcore>no license is no permissions
03:14<supermop>for both houses and stations i need to convince someone to help code, so i will be influenced by what they want to license as
03:15<chillcore>if here is really stuffs you'd like to protect ... don't add it but replace it with something you do want to share
03:15<supermop>i can remove any sensitive chairs before then
03:15<chillcore>eg. your logo
03:15<chillcore>ye exactly
03:15<supermop>need to make more beer murals
03:15<chillcore>moar beer
03:15<supermop>i wanted kirby bitter to be kirby draught
03:15<supermop>changed at last moment because idk
03:16<supermop>so i think i will do ginzu draft
03:16<supermop>as a pilsner with A4 as mascot
03:17<supermop>and 8P as the shitty queensland beer (in place of 4X)
03:17<supermop>sorry to pikka if he likes 4X
03:17<supermop>but may have Ginzu be a pub instead of a beer
03:18<chillcore>let there be rythm
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03:41<Supercheese>Sidetracked again by another feature I want to add... sigh
03:41<chillcore>haha kjoin the club
03:41<V453000>good stuff supermop
03:42<Supercheese>"Let's play a game of OTTD! But wait what grfs should I use..." Week later finally sorted what grfs I want, after modifying a couple of them to suit my needs
03:42<chillcore>I was going to look at MHL and that maxh_height all over the code ... wondering where all these settings went that used to be there
03:42<chillcore>now looking at vanilla config file :P
03:42<Supercheese>"Ok, let's actually play this!" Play for few hours, "Hmm, this feature needs to happen. Like, now."
03:42<Supercheese>Weeks later... here I am
03:42<chillcore>ye same here
03:43<Supercheese>Glad to know I'm not the only one :)
03:43<V453000>I have played 1 single game with YETI so far
03:43<V453000>0.0.1 was released a year ago
03:43<Supercheese>Yes, it does seem like there's a club I have joined ;)
03:43<chillcore>let's just say I have yet to finish my first game with my own patchpack xD
03:43<Supercheese>ah well, I got my hours upon days upon hours of TTD when I was a lad
03:44<V453000>XD yes
03:44<Supercheese>easily it's my all-time most played game, including OTTD of course
03:44<chillcore>ye coding playing it is the same fun for me
03:44<Flygon>You're making me want to play that Iceland scenario
03:44<Flygon>Which's annoying
03:44<Flygon>Because I gotta colourize these animations
03:44<Flygon>Play through MH4U...
03:44<Flygon>Xenoblade 3DS...
03:44<Flygon>Finish Bravely Default...
03:44<Flygon>Gamers Delema.
03:46<Flygon>And yet
03:46<Flygon>I'm also waiting on the next revision of 2CC trainset
03:46<Supercheese>Jeez yeah so many games in my backlog
03:47<Supercheese>I haven't even unlocked every fighter in Smash Bros. yet
03:47<Supercheese>my younger self would be ashamed of me
03:47<Flygon>Fuck, growing old sucks
03:47<Flygon>You lose motivation to clock everything
03:48<chillcore>I hope openttd does not get dumbed down like that
03:48<Flygon>Oh god
03:48<Flygon>Every time you open up the game
03:48<Flygon>"Hey buddie! Let's learn how to build a Bus!"
03:49<Flygon>And like
03:49<Supercheese>Achievement Unlocked: First Train Station Built!
03:49<Flygon>It takes 7 hours
03:49<V453000>at the same time, OpenTTD is not very newbie friendly due to 0 tutorial
03:49<Flygon>Supercheese: True achievement is "First train station built larger than 8 International Airports"
03:49<V453000>and youtube tutorial is just too outside imo
03:49<chillcore>"we removed all options cause the dumdums can not handle having options"
03:49<Supercheese>there is that Tut script
03:49<Supercheese>but it's not at all obvious
03:50<Flygon>I like options
03:50<Flygon>I'm not dumb
03:50<Flygon>My SPECIAL ATTACK is just low
03:50<Supercheese>you have to know what you're looking for to find it
03:50<V453000>how many players will get the idea to get a tut script after installing the game
03:50<Supercheese>which sort of defeats the purpose
03:50<Flygon>It's so awesome, so useful
03:50<Flygon>It makes eating Ribs so much easier
03:50<Flygon>I wanna eat Marinated Ribs now.
03:50<Supercheese>NMLLLLLL... parse fasterrrr....
03:51<Flygon>V453000: I didn't
03:51<Flygon>Y'know how I learned?
03:51<Flygon>I versed the AI
03:51<Flygon>And observed what the AI was doing
03:51<Flygon>Then I built upon that
03:51<Supercheese>There we go, Vintage Airship Stations
03:51<V453000>yes, we all didnt because we played TT, TTD and whatnot
03:51<Supercheese>Flygon: LOL
03:51<Flygon>Then came screaming to #openttd "WHY WON'T MY TRAIN WORK?"
03:51<Flygon>Then I get told I'm an idiot
03:51<Flygon>Because I made this REALLY obvious mistake
03:52<Flygon>And I'm ashamed of it
03:52<chillcore>hmm ...
03:52<chillcore>there are no stupid questions ... only idiot answers
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03:52<V453000>I think it would be nice to have -something- as a tutorial
03:52<V453000>for example
03:52<V453000>how many people have any idea how signals work
03:52<V453000>1way, 2way, block, path, ...
03:52<V453000>most people dont even know which way the signal is looking etc
03:52<chillcore>there is avery nice tutorial savegame for that
03:53<chillcore>a very nice one indeed
03:53<V453000>sure, there is hundreds of nice savegames and videos
03:53<V453000>but if it isnt inside of the game and when you launch the game you dont see a big "TUTORIAL" button, it isnt quite useful
03:53<V453000>imo anyway
03:53<chillcore>true that
03:54<V453000>I just played factorio recently and at least some guide to show you how to do stuff, is helpful.
03:54<V453000>especially since there is a ton of complexity to discover later
03:54<chillcore>not yet played that one
03:54<V453000>I think it is the n1 problem of OpenTTD - starting complexity
03:54<V453000>and unexplained, unintuitive things, which just cause myths among players, etc
03:55<chillcore>ye but that is no reason to simplify it to the point older players have no fun no more
03:55<V453000>there was a lot of similar clutter around openttdcoop ... about more complex things, but still. The solution was to simply write it on the wiki, write it in blogs, and let people know
03:55<V453000>well, the tutorial is not mandatory
03:55<V453000>making a tutorial does not harm old players at all
03:55<supermop>man now i'm thinking to add string of lights going from pub to tree
03:56<chillcore>I like them pro games V453000
03:56<chillcore>the others too but yeah
03:56<Flygon>Did the original game have a tutorial?
03:56<Flygon>TTO and TTD
03:56<chillcore>hmm ... good question
03:57<chillcore>I played TTO on PSX for a few hours
03:57<chillcore>can't remember really
03:57<chillcore>t had a manual
03:57<Flygon>The one with 3D?
03:57<chillcore>ye that one
03:58<chillcore>but I did not keep it ... stupid me
03:58<Flygon>My origin story for getting into OTTD was really stupid
03:58<Flygon>I met a furry and he referred me to this game
03:58<supermop>tto had one in the demo i think
03:58<Flygon>Because he thougtht I like trains
03:58<chillcore>in those days you could rent games and I was like yeah gonna buy this later
03:58<chillcore>never saw a copy again :/
03:59<supermop>yeah also booklet in the box
03:59<Flygon>Is there rip on Internet?
03:59<Supercheese>TTD definitely had an in-game tutorial
03:59<Supercheese>I remember it well
03:59<Supercheese>it was essentially hard-coded mouse actions IIRC
03:59<chillcore>maybe but that is not the same thing Flygon
03:59<Flygon>Same thing?
03:59<Supercheese>so if something for some reason went wrong in the tut, it would just fail miserably and start spazzing out
03:59<chillcore>still looking for a cdrom version of TTD too
04:00<Supercheese>because the mouse actions would still be executed even when they failed to produce the proper results
04:00<chillcore>Flygon: a digital copy is not something I can hold in my hands or put on my glory shelf
04:00<Flygon>oooh, right, right
04:00<Flygon>Gotcha :3
04:00<Supercheese>jeez I might have the DOS TTD CD lying around in a box somewhere
04:00<Supercheese>probably deep in storage though
04:00<chillcore>how much do you wan for it?
04:01<chillcore>name it ...
04:01<Supercheese>ha, I'd have to find it first
04:01<Supercheese>cannot in good faith make any sort of promise
04:01<chillcore>look for it first ;)
04:01<Supercheese>I think I will :)
04:01<chillcore>and send me a PM later ... only if you want to really part from it
04:02<chillcore>don't do things you may regret
04:02<Supercheese>AAaaaagh, I swear that my Firefox is not rendering these colors properly
04:02<chillcore>cause I ain't sending it back :P
04:02<Supercheese>I upload screenshots and they look weeeird
04:02<Supercheese>blues are purple
04:02<chillcore> palette
04:02<Flygon>How many monitors do you have?
04:02<Supercheese>just 1
04:03<Supercheese>need to try in a different browser
04:03<chillcore>ye maybe that too
04:03<Supercheese>I... don't seem to have any other web browser. Hmm.
04:04<chillcore>what format are you exporting them to?
04:04<chillcore>your screenies look fine here though
04:04<Supercheese>probably some funny thing on my local browser
04:04<supermop>my pngs always look different on forum than in game
04:04<Supercheese>maybe one of the dozen addons is screwing with it
04:05<chillcore>that woud not surprise me one bit
04:06<Flygon>(I have 4 different monitors in active use on my work area... each has different colour and brightness)
04:06<Flygon>(but only one's actually calibrated anyway)
04:06<Flygon>(the 21in CRT that's used as a TV)
04:06<Supercheese>Yep, it's definitely just Firefox
04:06<Flygon>(also, TV stations REALLY suck at colour calibration)
04:06<Supercheese>I wonder why on earth it does that...
04:06<Flygon>(all their whites are YELLOW)
04:06<Flygon>(except for when they ARE white)
04:07<chillcore>disable 1 plugin at a time, or disable all and re-enable one at a time Supercheese
04:08<chillcore>I disabled all plugins except for OpenH246 codec
04:08<chillcore>all the rest is not needed
04:08<chillcore>I have them at ask to activate
04:08<chillcore>they never ask
04:09<Supercheese>Ah, it is not just me
04:09<chillcore>yeah it seems like it
04:10<Supercheese>their test images show the exact same blues-shifted-to-purples issue
04:10<chillcore>what version do you have of firefox?
04:10<Supercheese>apparently, not the latest
04:10<Supercheese>time to update it seems
04:11<chillcore>36.0.1 here and I am good
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04:12<supermop>fighting tempation to model the interior of this put
04:12<chillcore>don't fight ...
04:12<Supercheese>bar fight
04:13<chillcore>Supercheese: this helps?
04:13<Supercheese>Bring on the Hindenburg
04:13<chillcore> please try setting gfx.color_management.mode to 1 in about:config. If you do that, then the PNG and the surrounding HTML/CSS elements should all be getting the same color management treatment. With the default value, 2, the images get color managed but other elements don't.
04:14<chillcore>got that from the link you posted earlier ...
04:14<Supercheese>Aah nice
04:14<Supercheese>let me try
04:14<chillcore>it helped that other dude ...
04:14<chillcore>comment 32
04:15<chillcore>hmm pngs were still screwed ... reading on
04:16<Supercheese>yeah no immediate improvement
04:16<supermop>doing rendering from camera looking out window onto beer garden
04:17<chillcore>seting it to 0? that shoudl be no colour correction
04:17<supermop>those tables need some pitchers of beer on them
04:17<supermop>maybe some fries
04:17<chillcore>and dry sausages
04:18<supermop>house set morphs into elaborate VR pub simulation
04:19<chillcore>\o/ OpenTTD
04:20<Supercheese>so weird, the .gif is fine but the .pngs are bollocks in Firefox
04:22<supermop>should model a pho shop
04:22<supermop>a set of VN sets would be great
04:24<Flygon>supermop: iirc, VR actually did run pubs
04:24<Flygon>Not 100% sure on that tho
04:24<Flygon>They definitely had a childcare division tho
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04:28<supermop>going to melt my gpu with these beer glasses
04:28<supermop>no yellow cylinders for me
04:28<chillcore>hmm ... too much polygons?
04:29<V453000>refraction with caustics :P
04:29<V453000>enough to melt shit
04:29<chillcore>a pub with no beer ... yay
04:29<chillcore>put kegs on the tables :P
04:30<V453000>idk if rhino has SSS?
04:30<V453000>sub-surface scattering
04:32<chillcore>hmm my settings in my patchpack seem not to stick no more ...
04:32<chillcore>what is this voodoo ...
04:35<Supercheese>.cfg issue? I sometimes open multiple instances of OTTD and then they change the .cfg on exit
04:35<Supercheese>so whichever I close last saves the changes
04:35<chillcore>maybe that is what happened yes, while testing and comparing yesterday
04:35<supermop>hmm not sure if flamingo does but it can do some pretty intense optics
04:36<supermop>like you could model a telescope and render a view looking through it
04:36<supermop>one of the tutorials goes into 'index of refraction of single malt whiskey'
04:37<V453000>I think about every 3D thing has IOR
04:37<Supercheese>Damn, I wish I was on that research project
04:37<V453000>cool idea about trying it with a telescope though
04:38<Supercheese>"Well, we got the optical index, now we just have to drink this or it'll go to waste"
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04:39<supermop>my beer looks like pee
04:40<V453000>add serioze foam
04:42*chillcore does MHL fixing on top of tgen light patch
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04:43<chillcore>this terrain pokes my eyes too much
04:43<supermop>gah why did i put the beer on a slatted table with a polished aluminum base with light mottled by tree leaves
04:43<supermop>computer going to melt
04:44<chillcore>ara you leaving a one unit gap between surfaces?
04:44<chillcore>if the beer touches the table the table top gets fragmented
04:45<chillcore>giving you way more polygons than needed
04:45<chillcore>same for all the other surfaces
04:45<chillcore>just saying
04:46<chillcore>noone is going to look there for a tiny gapsie
04:47<supermop>rhino doesnt use polygons
04:47<chillcore>o ... k
04:47<supermop>hmm i think im supposed to give the surface that is the boundry between beer and glass an ior thats halfway between the two
04:48<supermop>tutorial did not tell be ior of beer though!
04:48<V453000>rhino is all nurbs-ish?
04:51<supermop>you can creat polygon meshes though
04:51<supermop>for exporting of stereo lithography
04:51<V453000>how does that work?
04:51<supermop>the mesh is a separate object from the surface or polysurface
04:54<supermop>man there is really no reason to have rendered a close-up shot of beer glasses with a whole pub in scene out of frame...
04:55<V453000>fun is allowed? :P
04:55<V453000>I also rendered closeups and perspective-enabled shots when I was making yeti
04:56<supermop>next stop in destroying my computer: create a logo for kirby paul draught and etch it onto the glasses with a bump map
05:02<Supercheese>Here lies: Desktop ID#489461 20XX-2015. It Rendered unto Caesar what was Caesar's, and now it is Rendering unto God what is God's. R.I.P.
05:03<Supercheese>that is probably only funny to me because it is 2 AM
05:03<Supercheese>render puns... yeah not so much
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05:04<Supercheese>Salve amice
05:05<chillcore>Supercheese: reminds me of that p4 while compiling and debugging too many versions at once ... RIP
05:05<chillcore>o/ andy
05:08<supermop>where 20xx = 2010
05:08<supermop>and desktop= 13" laptop
05:08<supermop>im surprised this guy hasn't burst into flames already
05:09<Supercheese>Render inferno
05:09<chillcore>they used to build things sturdy ... used
05:10<supermop>hmm i reused the same wood bumpmap for the teak table as i did for the railroad ties - looks a little grainy up close
05:10<chillcore>games used to be quite bugfree too on release ... now they have "coming soon" allover
05:10<supermop>added more foam, still looks like pee
05:10<chillcore>yay pee-nuts
05:10<chillcore>gotta have those too
05:11<supermop>cancel the render! have to model bowl of individual nuts!
05:12<supermop>noting simple like peanuts though - shelled walnuts
05:12<Supercheese>Oh hmm OGFX+ does climate-dependent previews
05:12<Supercheese>guess I'll have to do those too
05:12<Supercheese>a job for tomorrow; good night all
05:13<chillcore>good night
05:13<supermop>good work Supercheese
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05:13<andythenorth>@seen danmack
05:13<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 39 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
05:15<supermop>haha i was wondering on the first pass why the chunky glass on the bottom looked grainy - turns out its refracting the bumpy bricks behind it
05:16<supermop>these are really the wrong shape glass for this beer though
05:16<chillcore>yeah that will kill your pc for sure
05:17<chillcore>how many times is light reflected?
05:17<chillcore>that is a killer too
05:17<supermop>well tulip glasses for ale will melt it faster
05:17<chillcore>too lots?
05:17<chillcore>try 4
05:18<andythenorth>if andythenorth was rendereing
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05:18<supermop>he would render beer glasses?
05:18*andythenorth would turn off transparency, refraction, radiosity etc
05:18<supermop>i have no idea why i am even doing these
05:18<chillcore>o/ Kamnet
05:18<supermop>they are certainly not going into game sprites
05:18<chillcore>supermop: because you can ... the only valid reason
05:19<kamnet>You're doing it because you're avoiding further work on MLSS :P
05:19<supermop>5th anniversary in a couple months
05:19<supermop>should really fix the problems in it before then
05:19<kamnet>You should get that whipped into shape, then!
05:20<kamnet>And then get it on nanna market
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05:21<supermop>i may actually do plain yellow cylinders on tables for game sprites
05:21<kamnet>Here's what I wasted all day working on:
05:21<supermop>or beer bottles that are neither hollow nor contain beer
05:22<supermop>just a brown cylinder with cone on top
05:22<andythenorth>Japan lacks an industry set
05:23<kamnet>MLSS 32bpp sprites? :D
05:23<supermop>firs japan?
05:23<kamnet>There was some discussion of oen years ago Andy
05:23<supermop>what would be japan specific and also fun to play?
05:23<supermop>i cant think of much
05:23<supermop>not enough raw materials
05:24<supermop>fishing grounds and fish market
05:24*andythenorth trades in stereotypes apparently
05:24<supermop>tsukiji is closing soon....
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05:25<supermop>would rice differ from grain gameplay wise?
05:26<supermop>export kikkoman shoyu
05:26<supermop>i mean there are still a lot of cars and industrial robots built there
05:26<supermop>some heavy shipbuilding
05:27<supermop>semiconductor fab
05:27<supermop>trains built for export
05:28<supermop>gah hurry up i want to see my beer foam already
05:28<kamnet>Agriculture: rice, soybean, root vegetables, livestock, forestry.
05:28<kamnet>and fishery
05:28<andythenorth>with FIRS economies, it doesn’t matter so much if rice is different from grain
05:28<supermop>i feel like slightly different sprites and firs has it covered
05:29<andythenorth>localisation with no gameplay effect is valid for economies
05:29<supermop>japan could use a non foamer train set
05:29<supermop>i like the jr set a lot
05:29<kamnet>There's some slight coal and iron mining operations, and soe offshore oil and natural gas rigs.
05:29<supermop>but its a bit academic
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05:30<supermop>IH: chrysanthemum roster would be nice
05:31<supermop>vietnam better for industry set
05:33<kamnet>You could adapt Port and Bulk Terminal to provide much of what Japan needs for imports. Food, energy, raw materials. Chief exports are cars, electronics, and most of the economy is centered around finance.
05:35<supermop>yeah finance less fun
05:36<supermop>but jr set is so passenger focused, as is the jr network, i don't mind
05:36<supermop>i honestly enjoy spening a whole game timetabling EMUs to cram into a station seamlessly
05:37<supermop>rendering complete!
05:37<supermop>needs more bubbles
05:40<kamnet>Now I'm thirsty
05:40<andythenorth>China Sea economy set
05:40<andythenorth>“For all the tea in China"
05:40<andythenorth>“Fragrant Harbour"
05:40*andythenorth worries about straying into accidentally controversial terms
05:41<andythenorth>“Sea of Poppies” :P
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05:44<supermop>well yeah
05:45<chillcore>Mary Poppies? :P
05:46<chillcore>^^^ just making connections with yesterday ... nvm
05:46<kamnet>"Milk of the Poppies". Hey. Game of Thrones economy. :D
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05:48<chillcore>hmm two of them ... must be the beer XD
05:48*andythenorth ponders an economy where Great Britain ships opium from Indian to Hong Kong
05:48<andythenorth>backed by gunboats
05:50<supermop_>a lot of melbourne terraced cottages are similar tectonically to chinese and vietnamese 18th and 19th century shophouses
05:50<supermop_>wondered about trying to crank out an indochina town set eventually
05:51<supermop_>could do some of it by just reconstituting parts
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05:53<supermop_>phnom penh and saigon buildings are a whole different animal
05:54<andythenorth>5 year old is asking for twisty bridges and twisty tunnels
05:56<supermop_>sounds like the right idea
05:56<kamnet>Wozers, 5 years old already? It really has been awhile since I've been here on a regular basis.
05:56<kamnet>My oldest just turned 18.
05:57*andythenorth leaves him alone with bridge_map.cpp
05:57<andythenorth>34yr6rri fxdsani\n; 7kfkzxcdksmssi3nu3213467o[]ujbggjk,,......qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
05:57<andythenorth>probably won’t work
05:58<andythenorth>he really wants diagonal :P
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05:59<kamnet>Set him to work on drawing sprites!
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06:00<chillcore><andythenorth> 34yr6rri fxdsani\n; 7kfkzxcdksmssi3nu3213467o[]ujbggjk,,......qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq <- so cute
06:01<chillcore> \o/
06:02<andythenorth>doesn’t compile
06:02*andythenorth doesn’t know much C++, but I think it’s wrong
06:07<chillcore>yay phone ... I'll have a lot less free time available soon-ish, I hope
06:09<chillcore>I've got an appointment the 6th of may
06:10<chillcore>it is a new project they may start because I asked via via ... oxfam
06:10<chillcore>ther will be some other peeps too ... for yet another project
06:10<chillcore>two jobs
06:11<chillcore>and then I am looking for a third
06:11<kamnet>I need another job too
06:11<chillcore>all PC related
06:11<chillcore>and not to help the rich get richer ... In yer face bozos
06:11<chillcore>not that I have something against rich peeps
06:12<chillcore>as long as they did not become it at the expense of ... I'm cool
06:12<chillcore>anyhoo we'll see
06:12<chillcore>at least I got peeps listening
06:13<kamnet>good deal
06:14<chillcore>now I just need a hobby that will make me rich :P
06:15*andythenorth gets rich on newgrfs
06:15<chillcore>that is a nice kind of rich
06:15<andythenorth>€1 per download
06:15<andythenorth>I have €1.7m
06:15<andythenorth>but rubidi*m charges a high fee for the store
06:16<andythenorth>so I am still penniless
06:16<chillcore>I was thinking about donating some of my broadbband but the amount of it ...
06:16<@planetmaker>it's all operation costs ;)
06:16<chillcore>I can spare 100GB a month at 6 up
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06:17<chillcore>but at 500GB my speed goes down so ...
06:17<@planetmaker>our mirrors have a monthy rate around 2TB
06:17<@planetmaker>iirc. Not sure really
06:17<chillcore>ye I saw that
06:18<chillcore>any idea to what belgium amounts?
06:18<@planetmaker>well, the coop server could take some as well. But it's too near the existing mirrors :)
06:18<@planetmaker> <-- I only have that kind of stats, chillcore
06:18<@planetmaker>thus Belgium is 0.5% of our traffic ;)
06:19<@planetmaker>(plus those with .com from belgium)
06:19<@planetmaker>and .net .org etc
06:19<chillcore>thanks for the link planetmaker
06:21<@planetmaker>but those stats don't include our online content traffic afaik
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06:22<@planetmaker>it's just web traffic of our main server
06:22<chillcore>hmm ok because I was just trying to figure out how much 19994607 KB is actually
06:23<chillcore>brain on the fritz :P
06:23<chillcore>with that phonecall ...
06:24<chillcore>that I can do no prob
06:25<@planetmaker>but we use no mirrors for our web traffic :) Only bananas is mirrored
06:25<chillcore>I could set up my homeserver so it does not tax my pc
06:25<chillcore>ah ok
06:25<@planetmaker>or basically all downloads. As our openttd binaries etc are also mirrored
06:25<@planetmaker>binaries are large compared to a bit of website traffic :)
06:25<chillcore>someone suggested seeding them
06:26<chillcore>which seems like a good-ish idea
06:26<chillcore>even if just the stables
06:26<@planetmaker>maybe. Personally I've no clue how complex that is to arrange
06:26<chillcore>seeding is easy
06:27<chillcore>I start, you pull, we seed, they pull, we all seed
06:27<chillcore>it grows exponentially
06:27<chillcore>but for nightlies ... hmm
06:27<chillcore>could work
06:28<chillcore>just thinking out loud ...
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06:28<chillcore>the thing is it has a bad ring to it
06:29<chillcore>most peeps think it is exlusively for pirates
06:29<chillcore>which is not the case at all
06:29<chillcore>justthat there are pirates too
06:29<chillcore>think megaupload
06:30<chillcore>not all on there was pirated stuffs
06:30<chillcore>but yeah ...
06:30<chillcore>same as with youtube ... they should take it dwn ... all of it :P
06:30<chillcore>someone posted a movie
06:31*andythenorth wonders if the world is better or worse without YouTube
06:32<chillcore>I like the tubes ...
06:32<chillcore>beats TV by miles
06:32<chillcore>you get to choose what nonsense you watch xD
06:34<chillcore>I like this dude ... he makes sense
06:37<chillcore>other vids are available :P
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08:59<kamnet>Windows 10 will be distributed and updated via torrents. Many open source projects (off the top of my head, LibreOffice) also distribute via torrent.
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09:05<@peter1138>Is it a spambot?
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09:18<Samu>when creating a patch and selecting files, the .vcxproj files are always in the way. Is is possible to automatically exclude them from being added to the patch everytime I am to create one?
09:22<@planetmaker>however you should not need to change those
09:25<@planetmaker>(and a meaningful answer to your question depends on the VCS and tools you use - check their respective help)
09:26<Samu>tortoise svn
09:27<Samu>i use visual studio express 2013 for windows desktop
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09:37<Gderckx>Hi Anyone, can you tell me how I can get 32Bpp graphics in open TTD V1.4.4, I tried the tutorials via Youtube but the http://jupix.... link is not working.
09:38<V453000>download zbase or some other 32bpp newgrfs
09:38<V453000>list here
09:39<Gderckx>Thanks for the fast reply, I can see some 32Bpp sets in thge newgrf settings but cannot find the Zbase one
09:39<V453000>zbase is not a newgrf, it is a base set
09:40<V453000>you need to activate it through the Game Options
09:40<V453000>or something like that
09:40<Gderckx>OK, and where can I get the base set as the only base set available in the game options is OPENGFX
09:41<V453000>from the download content
09:41<V453000>put zbase in the filter there or search for category base set
09:41<V453000>then you just download it and then you can choose it as a base set
09:43<Gderckx>OK, perfect now donwloading!
09:43<V453000>I would also suggest to download RAWR and place it as a static newGRF to improve zbase, but that is up to you :)
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09:44<V453000>for vehicles, pineapple trains are great
09:44<V453000>for industries, YETI
09:48<Gderckx>Perfect, Zbase now working and loolking great, I will indeed also add RAWR
09:49<chillcore>man these NewGRF names are killing me XD
09:49<chillcore>RAWR NUTS
09:49<Gderckx>Are the tall skyscrapers also included in RAWR?
09:54<V453000>no :)
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09:55<V453000>chillcore: NUTS PURR CATS YETI RAWR DOOM :P
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09:58<chillcore>Nuts yeti doom-cats purr. Rawr
10:00<chillcore>crazy peeps ... must be train fanatics for sure ... what else?
10:00<Gderckx>Cannot find DOOM and CATS but got the rest now
10:05<chillcore>this base is going to take me weeks to complete just the exterior
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10:08<kamnet_>Lo, my god even struck me from the chat room for even acknowledging their presence!
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10:10<kamnet>nick kamnet
10:10<chillcore>ah that is how you do it ...
10:10<kamnet>*grumble* Pickey keyboard
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10:11<chillcore>hehe ye I have a sensitive mouse like that
10:11<chillcore>always double clicking when it should not
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10:23<chillcore>hmm why does steam keep asking... ofcourse I am born in 1901 XD
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause>maybe choose 1902 and they stop?
10:28<chillcore>haha, they just ask before viewing inaproprate content ... as do many other places
10:28<chillcore>maybe I should not clear caches all the time ...
10:29<chillcore>it is silly really ... what kid fills in his real date of birth ... it is the first thing they learn
10:30<chillcore>but sometimes you get to see these really funny posts
10:30-!-Gderckx [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:30<chillcore>adults that missclick and now can no access some games no more
10:31<chillcore>hmm come to think of it they just need to log in and out to fix it so cache has little to do with it
10:37<chillcore>Note: The Steam Subscriber Agreement has been updated since you last accepted it. To view the previous version of the Steam Subscriber Agreement, click here.
10:38<chillcore>lol and then make me accept it or lock my acount
10:38<chillcore>no way I am clicking
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10:44<kamnet>Just imagine how popular openttd would be if we had such subscriber agreements
10:49<@peter1138>Steam sucks but it does make it easy buy games...
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10:56<soupy>So, is there a way to ignore alerts from certain vehicles? "Dammit, I know the feeders aren't making any money!"
10:57<chillcore>true peter ... they have made some changes in regards of european law already but it does not go far enough (yet) for me to restart buying games
10:57<soupy>Also, two boats keep saying they are lost, even though they aren't. I suspect it takes them just a second too long to find their destinations.
10:57<chillcore>soupy: there is a range of options to supress messages in the setting gui
10:58<soupy>I don't want to fully disable the notifications though.
10:58<chillcore>you have options, just have a looksie ;)
10:58<soupy>I like to know when vehicles are lost or not making profit so I can fix my inevitable bad track design.
11:00<soupy>The only options I'm familiar with for this are the options to increase feeder profit allotment, disable no-profit notifications, and disable lost notifications.
11:03<Samu>i feel my patch is ready
11:03<Samu>submitted it there
11:03<chillcore>just click one on the text and see below for an explanation ;)
11:03<chillcore>if it is still not clear then maybe that string text needs improving?
11:04-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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11:04<chillcore>feel free to ask a bout a specific setting
11:04<@Alberth>any magic settings?
11:04<@Alberth>hi hi btw
11:05<chillcore>notifications and the meaning of their string in the settings gui
11:05<chillcore>hello Alberth o/
11:08<Samu>ship is lost because the pathfinder doesn't know they can make 180º turns when going against wall
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11:15<deep42thought>Hi, I can't login to the bug tracker, but the wiki and work fine (with the same name & password). Do you have any idea what I might be doing wrong?
11:15<@Alberth>what makes you think a ship can do that?
11:16<@Alberth>deep42thought: no idea, but maybe TrueBrain Rubidium or planetmaker knows?
11:19<Samu>because they do
11:19<Samu>when the ship find a wall, the only thing it can do is turn around
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11:20<Samu>180 degrees
11:22<chillcore>and where does the lost come in?
11:22<Samu>when it goes against the wall, it's lost, happens quite often during departing
11:22<@Alberth>pathfinder failure to find a solution
11:23<Samu>if you have a dock at the end of a tight canal line
11:23<Samu>the only way to depart is doing the 180 turn
11:24<@Alberth>seems sensible to get lost in such a case
11:25<deep42thought>it *might* be, that I created a new account instead of merging my old one(s) into a new one
11:25<deep42thought>is there a way to recover that?
11:27<@Alberth>no doubt there is, but you need someone that knows that part
11:27<soupy>Sami: That one ship is the only one that has the problem though. The rest have almost identical orders, some of them going to fisheries close to it's destination.
11:27<@Alberth>deep42thought: you can wait here, or send an email to info@o.o
11:27<Samu>there are some other cases where it says it's lost
11:27<deep42thought>alberth: thanks, I'll try the mail-option :-)
11:27<Samu>it does against a wall, but not head on
11:28<soupy>chillcore: Still can't find it, buddy. Other than disabling the notification completely, or upping the feeder allotment of profits (which it's already at 95%), I can't seem to find any other options.
11:29<Samu>it's more like a "make a 45º degree turn, then go against the wall to make the 180º degree", when it's turns around, it's on track again
11:29<Samu>don't know if i explained clear
11:30<Samu>it's not a perpendicular head-on
11:34<Samu>sometimes i get the idea that ships walk on invisible rails
11:34<@Alberth>they do
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11:36<chillcore>samu: I just tried and the ship did not get lost ... mabe check your orders
11:36<Samu>which one you tried?
11:36<chillcore>maybe my canal is not long enough
11:37<chillcore>just a dock at the end of a canal
11:37<Samu>let me try myself
11:38<chillcore>soupy: let me open the setting gui over here so we are talking abou the same thing ;)
11:38<Samu>oh, sorry
11:38<Samu>didn't happen head on
11:40<chillcore>soupy: yeah in regards of negative profits it is on or off for all vehicles
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11:40<Samu>let me find out the different ways it can happen, brb
11:40<chillcore>as is for the other notifications
11:40<chillcore>hmm but yeah feeders ...
11:41<Samu>aha, I got a ship is lost, brb print screen
11:42<chillcore>you'll have to indeed fiddle a bit with that setting t oget rid of (most) the notifications
11:42<chillcore>in the end it does not make a difference to your income
11:43<chillcore>just that the last vehicle will be making less or run at a loss
11:43<Samu>makes a 45 turn, to go against wall, to make 180 degrees, to get back on track
11:44<soupy>chillcore: Yeah, they do a wonderful job. Got quite a burgeoning booze industry thanks to these 40 feeders picking up fruit. Unfortuantely they don't know their worth. :P
11:44<chillcore>so called loss ... because the previous vehicles received more of the share
11:44<Samu>CRAP, it made two 45 turns
11:44<chillcore>yes they do ... it is just that the final payment is calculated over the whole rout
11:45<Samu>seems easy to trigger, but hard to describe
11:45<chillcore>damn I looked in a light ... I'll not respond for a bit
11:45<chillcore>moving spots everywhere moehahahaha
11:46<chillcore>I do it each time silly me
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11:48<Samu>ship is lost again
11:48<Samu>another configuration
11:50<@Alberth>ships need room to move/rotate
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11:50<Samu>it's not really lost though
11:50<Samu>the popup is annoying
11:51<chillcore>o/ Terkhen
11:51<@Alberth>it is lost, but finds its way again at a later time
11:51<Samu>1 second later
11:51<@Alberth>give it more room, and the popup will not pop up
11:52<Samu>it also happens when it needs to service
11:52<chillcore>Alberth: that or disabling the lost warning :P
11:54<@Alberth>I prefer fixing the situation :)
11:54<Samu>when the ship has a sudden urge to go to depot because of service interval and is on a straight line canal, it makes a 45 turn against the wall again, to make a 180 degree
11:54<chillcore>ye me too ... that is about the only notification I leave on
11:55<chillcore>unless I want to play with subsidies
11:55<Samu>let me show you
11:55<@Alberth>no need, I believe you
11:55<@Alberth>if you don't give space to the ship to turn, it behaves weird
11:55<Samu>canals are expensive :(
11:56<@Alberth>chillcore: use busy bee :p
11:56<deep42thought>Samu: why don't you place a buoy beside your shipyard and make explicit "service when needed"-orders after a "goto-buoy"-order?
11:57<Samu>with 90 degrees turned off, that would mean I'd need a 3-tile wide canal to prevent the popup
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11:57<Samu>with 90 degrees on, i need 2-tile wide canal
11:57<Samu>or yah, that other suggestion
11:57<Samu>service in the orders
11:57<chillcore>I should play another decent game one of these days Alberth ...
11:58<chillcore>so much has changed ...
11:58<chillcore>and yet so little hehe ...
11:58<@Alberth>indecent game can be fun too :p
11:59<chillcore>indecent? I like the sound of that XD
12:01<chillcore>samu: now you are talking crap again ... I ALWAYS play with 90 degree turns off
12:01<chillcore>always ... and I never have probs
12:01<chillcore>ships just turn
12:02<@Alberth>busy bee gives you connections to make, no need to think at all, just make tracks/roads/docks
12:02<Samu>but if you want to prevent that popup
12:02<chillcore>AIs sometimes can not handle it
12:03<@Alberth>it's surprisingly fun to play without having to think :)
12:03<chillcore>Alberth is there a time limit to complet goals in busy bee?
12:03<@Alberth>yes, infinite
12:04<@Alberth>you can ignore goals, and you get a new one
12:04<chillcore>perfect ... my kind of time limit
12:04<chillcore>I start in 2050 too
12:04<@Alberth>if you do regular deliveries (once every x years) you can take as long as you like
12:04<chillcore>because when I start in 1950 all my vehicles are gone in no time
12:05<@Alberth>bb doesn't care about years, industries, vehicles
12:06<@Alberth>what vehicle set do you use?
12:06<chillcore>still the spots ... the flash like LSD ... yay
12:06<chillcore>old age I guess
12:08<chillcore>then again ... what am I complaining about ... some peeps see nada. ;)
12:08<@Alberth>yeah, must be severely bummer
12:08*chillcore whistles and avoids age topic
12:08<Samu>each canal has 6 invisible "rail" tracks
12:09<@Alberth>perhaps avoid the lights instead :)
12:09<chillcore>good idea that
12:10<chillcore>I have this shade but need to put it on still
12:10<chillcore>it has been collecting dust for quite while now :P
12:10<@Alberth>maybe tonight is the night? :)
12:10<chillcore>yeah no maybe
12:10<chillcore>it should be yes
12:11<chillcore>but yeah going practically blind ... sux bigtime
12:13<chillcore>especially if you know you will since you're a kid still and see it happening to your grandma, then your father, recognize things in your kids behaviour ...
12:13<chillcore>oh well not there yet and life goes on ;)
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12:14<chillcore>that is the only way to deal with it
12:14<@Alberth>pretty much yeah
12:14<chillcore>things have improved thouh over the years ...
12:14<chillcore>they put new lenses in and stuffs
12:15<chillcore>reading aids ... bigger screens etc
12:15<chillcore>also aid at home and such
12:15<chillcore>ont that I need any of that yet
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12:15<@Alberth>pity, a 4x2m tv wouldn't be bad :)
12:15<chillcore>anyhoo ... everybody's got something
12:16<chillcore>ye that 84 inch tablet microsoft has for sale now
12:16<chillcore>eh touscreen I mean
12:16<@Alberth>ieks big thing :)
12:17<chillcore>could be used as a tablet ...
12:17<chillcore>Imagine taking that thing on a train or bus
12:17<@Alberth>more like a table :)
12:17<chillcore>big phone
12:18<Samu>i have an idea
12:18<@Alberth>make room for ships?
12:18<Samu>allow ship reversing at docks?
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12:19<Samu>there's train reversing at stations
12:19<@Alberth>yeah, 3 tile wide platform tracks sort of fail
12:19<Samu>but this won't fix the sudden urge to service intervals :(
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12:24<Samu>hmm, there might be a way, but it may require track manipulation
12:25<Samu>the idea is avoid dead end tracks
12:25<Samu>it is adjusted based on the surroundings
12:26<Samu>let me try draw this
12:31<chillcore>yay ... i just built the most complex canal station of all times and at both ends the ship bumps into the dock or wall ... no lost vehicle messages with or without 90 degree turns
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12:36<Samu>not sure how feasible this is
12:37<Samu>the track layout builds itself based on the surroundings
12:40<@Alberth>much like the path finder ignores some parts of the layout
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12:44<Samu>oh, my bottom part of the track isn't 100% correct, but you get the idea
12:47<@Alberth>won't solve your lost messages, I think
12:47<@Alberth>ships still cannot reverse
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12:49*chillcore must resist that button :P
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12:51<@planetmaker>hehe, chillcore ;)
12:52<chillcore>the minimise button is hidden on my top monitor now ... should help some
12:52<chillcore>I heard you hit some magic button combination often too planetmaker xD
12:54<Samu>i'm trying something
12:55<Samu>making a line of ship depots
12:55<Samu>the ship cannot make 45 degree turns in there
12:55<Samu>it's a straight line
12:56<Samu>when i tell it to go to the other dock, it just follows the line and only reverts at the end of line, no ship is lost pops up
12:57<chillcore>samu: do you ever like ... just play?
12:58<chillcore>but yeah that is what I see here too the ship reverses and no lost warning ...
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13:06<Samu>better mirroring
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13:49<Samu>aha, ignore-on-commit
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13:59<andythenorth>more sea industries eh?
14:00<@Alberth>firs has plenty, doesn't it ?
14:05*andythenorth considers looking up Iron Sands
14:06<andythenorth>dunno what they are
14:06<andythenorth>sea-dredged ore I guess
14:06<andythenorth>sea coal I know about
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14:06<chillcore>iron sands? sound like something you find in australia
14:06<chillcore>just guessing though
14:07<chillcore>also o/
14:07<@Alberth>can't you get diamonds or so from the ocean floor?
14:08<andythenorth>New Zealand
14:08<andythenorth>the problem with sea-based industries is that they often enforce transfers
14:08<andythenorth>or mass-terraforming
14:09<@Alberth>interesting stuff
14:10<chillcore>I was right about the continent though ... what do I win?
14:10<andythenorth>the right to be smug
14:11<chillcore>TBH I was thinking abot red sand
14:11*chillcore smugs and taps self on shoulder
14:12*andythenorth considers whether sea industries are stupid
14:12<andythenorth>it’s annoying having to transfer
14:12<@Alberth>It'd be good to keep the sea somewhat empty, imho
14:12*chillcore slaps self with wet fish
14:12<andythenorth>rivers are useless for shipping
14:12<chillcore>^^^ you done now?
14:12<chillcore>not you andy ;)
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14:13<@Alberth>smugness reshaping?
14:16<chillcore>how come rivers are useless andy?
14:16<andythenorth>can’t build docks on them
14:16<andythenorth>hard to go up slopes
14:16<andythenorth>locks take too much space
14:17<andythenorth>although I think I fixed the lost ships issue
14:17<andythenorth>which is 1 out of 3 problems solved
14:17<Samu>i was toying with the idea of auto-placing canals under docks if none exists yet
14:17<Samu>same for ship depots
14:18<andythenorth>(turning off 90º turns causes ships to get lost on river systems, for the record)
14:18<Samu>to make it easier
14:18<chillcore>me tests ...
14:19<Samu>canals should be much cheaper to build :(
14:19<andythenorth>they are with Squid Ate FISH in your game
14:19<andythenorth>locks would be ‘solved’ by making them 2 tiles not 3
14:19<andythenorth>still hard to place, but not stupid hard
14:19<andythenorth>docks would be ‘solved’ by implementing the flat docks part of newgrf spec which is already defined
14:20<chillcore>docks I can build
14:21<chillcore>depots I can build
14:21<chillcore>what else was there
14:21<Samu>you need water
14:21<Samu>well, yeah.. duh, but you don't need water for lock
14:21<chillcore>seriously samu?
14:21<chillcore>rivers without water ...
14:22<Samu>it builds water for you
14:22<Samu>if there's none
14:22<chillcore>we are talking rivers?
14:22<chillcore>just to make sure
14:22<andythenorth>docks are buildable, with some amount of terraforming
14:23<andythenorth>and building canal tiles
14:23<Samu>nevermind, i'm on a different thing
14:23<chillcore>you need a flat slope yes
14:23<chillcore>no autoslope
14:23<chillcore>same for canals
14:23<chillcore>maybe that should be changed?
14:24<Samu>i was also toying with the idea of auto-terraforming a missing corner or two for placing locks, but i fail at understanding this part of the code
14:24<andythenorth>dock placement could be much less irritating imho
14:25<andythenorth>I would prefer building on corner slopes
14:25<andythenorth>a few years ago, Frosch(?) enabled building on all slopes for roadstops, made it much more fun
14:25<andythenorth>arbitrary building restrictions don’t add anything to gameplay except yak shaving
14:25<chillcore>ye autoslope ... me takes note of that for calan and dock
14:26<chillcore>not that I will be able too but you never know
14:26<chillcore>that roadstop on slopes was a nice patch too
14:26<chillcore>was just missing graphics
14:26<chillcore>^^^ sloped ones
14:27<chillcore>testing 90 degrees turning on rivers ... it works fine on canals
14:30<andythenorth>ships get lost trivially
14:31<andythenorth>on any complex river system with junctions
14:31<andythenorth>they leave docks in the wrong direction (because no 90º turn) then get too far from the next order destination
14:31<chillcore>hmm ok
14:32<chillcore>it seems fine for the moment but the rivers are not that complex in this game
14:32<andythenorth>it’s hard to trigger delibarately
14:32<andythenorth>deliberately *
14:32<chillcore>but yeah if you forget to ad a lock it turns back all the way to sea before it turns again
14:32<andythenorth>but I’ve seen it multiple times
14:33<andythenorth>and afaict, it’s trivially solved by enabling 90º turns
14:33<andythenorth>banning 90º turns for ships is bollocks anyway
14:33<andythenorth>might as well ban it for RVs too
14:33<chillcore>I never use 90 degree turns muself
14:34<chillcore>it is silly for trains
14:34<chillcore>maybe we should have it per vehicle group
14:34<andythenorth>I used to ban it in my games for ‘realism'
14:34<chillcore>I heard the devs want moar settings :P
14:34<andythenorth>but eh, it’s totally misguided
14:36<chillcore>it fucks with my mind too much when I see a train do that
14:36<chillcore>about as much as them moving hills in TTD
14:36<chillcore>at least those were funny
14:37<chillcore>we should get those back for tropical
14:37<chillcore>moving sand dunes
14:38<andythenorth>also eroding coasts
14:39*andythenorth considers making a GS: “Longshore Drift"
14:39<andythenorth>we need more than one GS per game :P
14:39<andythenorth>let them battle
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14:39*andythenorth ponders a GS wrapper around modules
14:39<andythenorth>and an app for compiling
14:40<andythenorth>maybe a web app :P
14:40<andythenorth>choose modules, choose parameters, download
14:40<soupy>So, if I transfer alcohol to a central station and neglect it, does that throw off the profits for the feeders who helped collect the fruit to make the alcohol?
14:40<soupy>If that makes any sense.
14:41<chillcore>andy that sounds cool-ish
14:41<chillcore>do GSs need compiling?
14:41<andythenorth>not exactly
14:41<chillcore>ah ok
14:41<andythenorth>but some end up with a makefile or such to manage releases
14:41<chillcore>more like AI yes?
14:41<andythenorth>version numbers and crap
14:41<chillcore>ah like that
14:42*andythenorth any rule like ‘one per game’ is circumventable :P
14:42<andythenorth>even though it’s a good rule
14:43<chillcore>soupy: neglected cargo vanishes afer a long period of time but I am not sure if the same holds for cargo in transfer
14:45<chillcore>andy: hmm ... must investigate GS some day
14:46<chillcore>I written my roadbuilder AI in such a way that I can run multiple instances without them fighting to make the same conections
14:46<chillcore>almost totally random
14:47<chillcore>maybe I shouldad some code ... if the one detects the other they stop building and commence a flamewar
14:47<chillcore>with signs else the players see nothing if they do not have the console open
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14:51<Wolf01>hi hi
14:51<chillcore>hello wolf o/
14:53<chillcore>soupy: to answer the rest of your qustion ... the payment is done over the wjhole chain ... so indirectly yes the feeders suffer but it will only be the last vehicle that takes the hit, so to speak
14:53<chillcore>in the end it is all your company that makes a profit or not
14:53<Wolf01>wow, I did some trx training after 15 years away from the gym... it killed me
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15:24<andythenorth>eh so what would you call a tram/truck that hauls scrap metal or recyclables
15:30<andythenorth>the cargo is the significant fact, not the body shape
15:31<frosch123>trash train :)
15:32<frosch123>or just "tramsh"
15:32<andythenorth>and in the EN-GB translation?
15:32<andythenorth>‘junk truck'
15:32<andythenorth>FIRS renames ‘junk’ -> ‘scrap’ for EN-GB
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15:35<frosch123>well, "Wertstoffbahn" if you want a truely german construct
15:36<andythenorth>you can translate it when I add it :D
15:36<frosch123>does en-gb have a word that is as similar to valuables, but means trash?
15:36<andythenorth>Google translate suggests ‘value web’ ha
15:37<andythenorth>en-gb probably has a phrase that is similar
15:37<andythenorth>if I could think of it
15:39<kamnet>what's the wordd?
15:41<frosch123>kamnet: a cargo tram for bulky household waste
15:43<kamnet>Guterbin! :D
15:43<frosch123>what language is that? :p
15:45<kamnet>Austrian. The Guterbim is a famous trash collection tram in Vienna
15:46*frosch123 hands kamnet a ü
15:47<andythenorth>trash truck
15:47<kamnet>Yeah, I'm bad with remembering those :P
15:48<kamnet>Pretty much any municipality that has used them call them "trash tram" or something close to that.
15:48<frosch123> <- no link to any english page :p
15:48<andythenorth>junk truck
15:48<andythenorth>scrap truck
15:48<andythenorth>waste truck
15:48<andythenorth>roll-on, roll-off container hook lift waggon-and-drag truck
15:49<frosch123>hmm, there is an extra-brittish "skip" in my dictionary
15:49<frosch123>skip tram
15:52<andythenorth>skip truck :)
15:52<andythenorth>might not translate easily ;)
15:52<kamnet>Zurich also runs a trash collection tram called Cargotram, not to be confused with the famous VW parts delivery tram in Dresden
15:52<frosch123>why truck? weren't you looking for a tram?
15:52<andythenorth>truck + tram
15:52<andythenorth>or tram + truck
15:52<andythenorth>or tram, truck, tram
15:52<andythenorth>dunno, depends on roster
15:53<frosch123>well, i do not know a word for such vehicle in german, usually you refer to the company/service as "container service"
15:53<frosch123>and their vehicles
15:54<Samu>Freight trams in Vienna
15:55<kamnet>trash-collection tram, then?
15:55<andythenorth>“Unwanted consumer and industrial waste in bales (piece goods or countable bulk) or shredded (uncountable bulk) tram”
15:55<andythenorth>also truck
15:56<andythenorth>actually “Unwanted” / “Residual value” /s
15:56<Samu>Garbage truck or dustbin lorry refers to a truck specially designed to collect municipal solid waste and haul the collected waste to a solid waste treatment facility such as a landfill. Other common names for this type of truck include trash truck in the United States, and rubbish truck, bin wagon, dustcart, bin lorry or bin van elsewhere. Technical names include waste collection vehicle and refuse collection vehicle. These trucks are a com
15:57<frosch123>there was some drama on german forums
15:57<frosch123>because someone replaced the translation of "food truck" with "edibles truck"
15:58<andythenorth>edibles is stupid
15:58<andythenorth>I use it in my sets
15:58<andythenorth>but it’s stupid
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16:17<kamnet>everybody sleeps
16:18<chillcore>half ...
16:18<chillcore>stupid change of clocks ...
16:19<chillcore>it is 21:18
16:19<chillcore>for me ... for everone else it is 22:18
16:19<chillcore>not everyone ...
16:20<chillcore>but yeah peeps get up an hor earlier so
16:20<chillcore>silly sytem
16:20<chillcore>silly typoing too xD
16:22<frosch123>chillcore: the time is correct if wt3 commits at 19:45 :p
16:22<frosch123>you should adjust your life to proper time references
16:22<frosch123>like ottd commit times
16:22<chillcore>I don't use clocks ... at all
16:23<chillcore>except for appointments
16:23<chillcore>work kids ... stuff like that
16:23<frosch123>huh? what else would you use a clock for?
16:24<chillcore>otherwise I eat when hungry, sleep when tired, etc
16:24<frosch123>i thought everyone would do that :p
16:24<chillcore>I mean I do not live by a watch
16:24<frosch123>well, do you know someone who does?
16:25<chillcore>diner is not at 6 ... but when tummy goes grrrrrrr
16:25<chillcore>plenty of peeps do
16:25<chillcore>if food is not on the table at 12.30 sharp they go nuts
16:27<chillcore>thiss one place I used to work for a while ... we had 16 minutes to eat
16:27<chillcore>16 ...
16:27<chillcore>so I did not bother
16:27<chillcore>takes me 45 at least
16:28<chillcore>not that I eat slow ... but really 16 mins
16:28<chillcore>sometimes I cook at 3 AM
16:28<chillcore>don't care
16:29<frosch123>breakfast or dinner :p
16:29<chillcore>whatever I feel like ye
16:30<frosch123>ok, i never eat at night
16:30<chillcore>if I go to bed now I'll be making cofee at 2AM
16:30<frosch123>my stomach has close from 0:00 to 6:00
16:31<frosch123>i guess it's less flexible than the rest of my body :)
16:32<chillcore>I do not start moving furniture during the night ... lucky neighbours
16:33<chillcore>but yeah my body has no clock
16:33<chillcore>long time ago I used to work 14-16 hours a day
16:33<chillcore>sometimes I added 24 to that
16:34<chillcore>then 3 shifts ...
16:34<chillcore>guess it is a leftover from that time
16:34<chillcore>not complaining though
16:35<chillcore>but it is hard for peeps to keep up "whadda ya mean breaksie?"
16:35<chillcore>we just started lol
16:36<chillcore>although with getting older I did cam down a bit
16:36<chillcore>except for my sleep pattern
16:36<frosch123>my coworker plays poker every night, usually arrives at 10:30 at work and has lunch at 12:00 :p
16:37<chillcore>sux for relation ships sleeping like that ... I just can't stay in bed without being tired
16:37<chillcore>hehe that's a nice rythm
16:38<chillcore>he leaves at 16:00?
16:38<chillcore>or you have gliding hours?
16:38<chillcore>just curious ... nosy me
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16:40<frosch123>you can do your 40 hours/week whenever you like
16:40<frosch123>as long as you are not missing from meetings constantly :p
16:40<chillcore>reminds me of that other place I worked ... we left at 6:00 with the van ... arrived at whatever hour (depending where we were working) and had breakfast for 30 mins before starting
16:40<chillcore>ah that is cool
16:40<frosch123>some people come at 5am, some at 11am
16:40<chillcore>I'd be there for like 2 days ...
16:41<chillcore>I'd love a job like that
16:41<frosch123>yeah, the night watch doesn't ever bother to ask some about their access key
16:41<frosch123>they already know them :p
16:46<chillcore>but yeah working 12 hours a day does not bother me much ... making plenty of money and no time to spend it ...
16:47<frosch123>[22:40] <chillcore> I'd be there for like 2 days ... <- actually, i think you have to make at least 4 hours on monday to friday every day
16:47<chillcore>ah ok ... makes sense
16:47<frosch123>or you have to specifically ask for for overtime-compensation
16:48<chillcore>hehe peeps are not too happy to pay that most of the times
16:49<chillcore>Volvo was nice for that ... between 22:00 and 06:00 130%, saterdays 150%, and sundays 200%
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16:49<frosch123>well, let's say, it does not help that the former head of worker council was at the legal limit of 400 (?) hours/year overtime
16:50<chillcore>still not that terribly much ... +-2 a day ...
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16:51<frosch123>well, for the true work-a-holics, you have to start wondering whether they compute the hours correctly
16:52<frosch123>or whether they write down less than they actually do, just to avoid the trouble with the legal limits...
16:52<chillcore>possibly yeah
16:52<chillcore>make that most likely
16:52<frosch123>that's what i mean with: it get's tricky if the working council president is one of them :p
16:53<chillcore>I had this one place that worked with a badge soo that was all payed ... +4 a day
16:53<chillcore>this other place was 4 hours under the table
16:53<chillcore>but yeah
16:54<chillcore>but that happens less and less
16:55<chillcore>these days they hire interims ... easier to let go if things slow down
16:56<chillcore>I know this one place where they still search a programmer ... prefferably little to no industry experience
16:57<chillcore>kinda my profile but I don't like the guy for things he does so ...
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16:59<chillcore>I'll be doing something I like doing soon enough hopefully
16:59<chillcore>ripping old pcs apart and putting them back toghether with a new HDD in it
16:59<chillcore>sell them for 100 euros
16:59<chillcore>for the less fortunate
17:00<chillcore>that and teaching old ladies how to send e-mails :P
17:00<chillcore>or stuffs like that
17:00<chillcore>this other company that I breached their security don't want ot work with outsiders
17:01<chillcore>I'll tell them to hire me so I am no longer :P
17:03<chillcore>They still want to have a talk with me so I'll see
17:03<chillcore>waiting for an apointment for that
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17:04<chillcore>I am just looking forward again to not having a boss above me
17:05<chillcore>that sux, especially if your direct supervisor has no clue
17:08<chillcore>making some coffee ... anyone want some :P
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17:08<frosch123>finished mine 2 hours ago
17:11<chillcore>making only half a kettle then ;)
17:11<chillcore>fresh in the morning
17:12<frosch123>i only drink coffee in the evening, as weird as it may sound :)
17:13<chillcore>hehe ... I have no probs having some before going to bed
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17:13<chillcore>but I need it in the morning
17:13<chillcore>or rather when waking up
17:14<chillcore>not hat weird tbh
17:15<chillcore>I dont dink softdrinks much ... actually almost never
17:15<chillcore>they make me thirsty
17:16<chillcore>I am halway rewritng MHL ...
17:16<chillcore>in my head
17:17<chillcore>just need some part getting rid of the max_height dependency
17:17<chillcore>not all of them
17:18<chillcore>but the code will tell ... too hard to explain with you confusing me all the time xD
17:19<chillcore>we need it indeed for newgrf stuffs
17:19<chillcore>not for generating maps
17:19<chillcore>nor heightmaps
17:19<chillcore>simply put ...
17:20<chillcore>and indeed maxheight should not change midgame
17:20<chillcore>but level of top tile still can
17:20<chillcore>if done properly
17:21<chillcore>what has happened is that everythingis tied to it and that is wrong
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17:21<Mr_Bones_>anyone with commit privs willing to fix this:
17:21<Mr_Bones_>media/ error: value "game;simulation;transport;tycoon;deluxe;economics;multiplayer;money;train;ship;bus;truck;aircraft;cargo" for locale string list key "Keywords" in group "Desktop Entry" does not have a semicolon (';') as trailing character
17:22<Mr_Bones_>just needs a semicolon at the end of the line
17:23<chillcore>hmm most devs sleep now Mr_Bones
17:23<chillcore>can you submit that to FlySpray please?
17:25<Mr_Bones_>doesn't really seem like a big enough deal for me to create an account for
17:26<chillcore>does it crash the game or just wome warnings during compilation or?
17:26<frosch123>i see nothing in the specification saying it should end with a ;
17:27<frosch123>never mind, found it
17:29<Mr_Bones_>it's best just to trust desktop-file-validate ;-)
17:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27221 trunk/media/ (2015-04-07 23:30:04 +0200 )
17:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Multi-value keys in the desktop entry shall end with a trailing separator. (Mr_Bones)
17:30<Mr_Bones_>nah, it's just a warning when creating the package. on gentoo the desktop files are checked at package creation time and warnings are displayed.
17:30<Mr_Bones_>nice, thanks.
17:30<Mr_Bones_>I can punt the sed patching in the ebuild for the next release.
17:31<chillcore>now I can delete this file too ... ;)
17:33<Mr_Bones_>now the only patch we're carrying is the CFLAGS one. Any chance y'all would consider just using the existing CFLAGS if they're already set at configure time?
17:34*chillcore should change nick and try that same trick with tgen light patch :P
17:35<frosch123>Mr_Bones_: ./configure --CFLAGS=$CFLAGS ?
17:35<frosch123>anyway, i have no idea about the configure magic
17:35<Mr_Bones_>mmmm, maybe. let me take a look at the configure script.
17:36<Mr_Bones_>heh. yeah, configure claims that CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS are influential but that's kind of a lie.
17:40<Mr_Bones_>well, that's ok, it's a small patch and seems like the configure code doesn't change much between releases so it's a light burden.
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17:53<Samu>i got a question, i never used these "->" signals
17:53<Samu>if (indspec->behaviour == INDUSTRYBEH_BUILT_ONWATER) prospector = _current_company;
17:53<Samu>is this gonna do what I think it's gonna do?
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17:54<Samu>if the industry that is about to be prospected is built on water, then set the prospector to the current company?
17:55<Samu>what does the -> do?
17:55<chillcore>it is an arrow ... it points?
17:58<Samu>points to the behaviour?
18:00<chillcore>asuming all of them have behavior to point at
18:01<Samu> /* Prospected industries that are not built on water are built as OWNER_TOWN to not e.g. be build on owned land of the founder */
18:01<chillcore>book samu ... do yourself a favour
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18:01<Samu>:( ok ty
18:01<chillcore>hmm ...
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18:29<Samu>if (indspec->behaviour | INDUSTRYBEH_BUILT_ONWATER) prospector = _current_company;
18:31<Samu>gah, this looks horribad
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19:46<Samu>this is complicated
19:47<Samu>i am passing thru 3 functions
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20:09<kamnet>Hoorah. Under a Tornado Warning and severee lightning and flooding
20:09<Sylf>Baldy = broken record?
20:19<kamnet>No, broken records eventually stop repeating the noise.
20:26<soupy>I'm having trouble understanding CargoDist's payments.... I'm getting charged for a lot of the trips I'm making. =/
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20:42<Eddi|zuHause>soupy: check the wiki. it's explained there. short version: cargodist has to "guess" what the final payment will be, to make vehicles that never deliver anything still count as profitable. when this estimate is too high, the difference will be reduced from the vehicle that makes the final delivery
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>you still earn money for the delivery, just less than expected
20:47<soupy>Ahhh, I think I get it now.
20:48<soupy>Well, I have a train making a long-haul, then busses at the terminal taking to nearby towns. When they come to the terminal from the towns, everyone is happy. But if they are taken from the terminal to the towns, they get very unhappy.
20:48<soupy>So for now I've set the busses to not pick up from the station. Let's see how that works out.
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20:57<soupy>I've read the wiki a few times, I must be missing something
21:01<soupy>Ah, was reading the wrong page. This one seems to explain it perfectly:
21:02<soupy>Although refusing to finish the customers trip did save me some cash, it felt cheaty considering the mechanic... so now everyone gets to go home happy,
21:09<kamnet>As long as the customers are happy, you'll make some dosh
21:18<supermop>modelling pinot bottles and crates
21:18<supermop>i wonder how balthazar and larger sized bottles are shipped
21:19<supermop>could just have 4' tall wine bottles sitting on platforms but that may look odd...
21:21<supermop>i'll model the punt as well why not
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21:33<kamnet>still enjoying the modeling, huh?
21:44<supermop>something off with the green glass though - its refracting as if the hollow part of the bottle is solid glass and the thickness of the bottle is hollow
21:49<supermop>looks better to make the whole bottle just a solid object
21:49<supermop>then float a cylinder of wine in there if need be
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 08 00:00:25 2015