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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-08

---Logopened Wed Apr 08 00:00:25 2015
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01:00<chillcore>good morning interwebz o/
01:08<chillcore><supermop> modelling pinot bottles and crates
01:08<chillcore> i wonder how balthazar and larger sized bottles are shipped
01:09<chillcore>wine bottle are packed 6 in a box same height and width as the bottles, the bottle sare seperated with cardboard
01:11<chillcore>larger beer bottles come in the same sized crates as their smaller brothers, they just have less in them
01:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm always amazed how crates of different manufacturers fit on top of each other
01:12<chillcore>like europalettes
01:13<Eddi|zuHause>except when they don't :p
01:13<chillcore>then they are not europalletes xD
01:13<chillcore>but yeah
01:13<chillcore>thes 120 by 120 palletes are not recuperated
01:14<chillcore>thye go in the trash
01:14<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the fireplace
01:14<chillcore>nah not even that
01:14<chillcore>some peeps do come get em to do that sure
01:15<chillcore>but you'll not be taking them europalletes ... uhuh
01:15<Eddi|zuHause>those are expensive
01:16<chillcore>that is why truck are 140 wide on the inside too
01:17<chillcore>240* you can fit two or three alongside
01:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not familiar with the measures of europalettes
01:17<chillcore>+s ... thing is broken again :P
01:17<chillcore>80 by 120
01:18<chillcore>with corners sawn off
01:19<chillcore>makes it easier for reachtruck drivers to guide them in place
01:19<chillcore>all to make you work faster harder better
01:20<chillcore>same with this winter/sumer hour
01:20<chillcore>it is not to make our lives better
01:20<chillcore>it is so that companies pay less on elec to light up the place
01:22<Eddi|zuHause>so you save more on dimming the light than it costs to educate people to maneuver in the dark?
01:22<chillcore>haha ... ;)
01:22<chillcore>the inside of factories used to be dark places
01:22<chillcore>hence them jagged roofs wit windows in them
01:23<chillcore>catches more light
01:23<chillcore>but in winter that does not help much
01:23<chillcore>see it should be 6.30 now
01:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and i should be sleeping
01:25<chillcore>but yeah ... everybody works an hour later then three weeks ago
01:25<chillcore>because there is still light outside
01:26<chillcore>+in the evening*
01:27<chillcore>or rather the reverse of that ... moar coffee
01:29<chillcore>in spain they got it ... try finding someone in the office between 12:00 and 15:00
01:36<chillcore>evening o/
01:37<kamnet>where is it evening alredy??
01:37<chillcore>not your place?
01:37<chillcore>hmm ...
01:37<chillcore>here it is morning indeed ...
01:40<kamnet>it's 1:39 am edt. well yes middle of the night, but still AM... lol
01:40<chillcore>ah ok ... I got center on the clock for you region
01:40<chillcore>I play too many games with peeps worldwide :P
01:40<kamnet>My cat is a slinky. I t takes up my half of the bed. and if I come within 3 feet while he's asleep, he will actually give me a courtesy meow to warn me not to disrupt him, and then he'll grow even longer to occupy more space so I have no room.
01:41<chillcore>hehe ... growl back
01:42<kamnet>scratches my arms up to hell and back
01:43<chillcore>ye been there too ... :P
01:43<chillcore>such cute animals
02:00<Rubidium>chillcore: next time say to Samu that p->x is syntactic sugar for (*p).x ;)
02:02<chillcore>Rubidium: Thanks for the hint.
02:03<chillcore>I really hate pointers ... and I should take my own advice ... book
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02:43<supermop>reisling bottle is more like 35 cm tall right?
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02:43<supermop>as opposed to the 28-30 of bordeaux and pinot bottles?
02:44<supermop>i recall them being difficult to fit on normal shelves with 12" spacing
02:44<supermop>going to look forempties on alibaba
02:45<supermop>hmm i find 33cm sounds good enough
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04:04<Gderckx>can anyone tell me how to make the RAWR file a static-NEWGRF file?
04:04<Gderckx>I tried to do so in the game documents section but I cannot find a Static-newgrf section
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04:12<@planetmaker>game documents section?
04:13<@planetmaker>add it as normal newgrf to your game, exit openttd. Then edit your openttd.cfg in a plain text editor: move the line concerning rawr to the [newgrf-static] section. Create the latter, if it doesn't exit
04:14<@planetmaker>then restart openttd and start a new game
04:14<@planetmaker>well. or continue an old. doesn't matter :)
04:22<V453000>oh he quit
04:23<V453000>seriously, people asking question and waiting for just 3 minutes should just go "somewhere"
04:25<@planetmaker>oh, he quit even before my answer :P
04:25<@planetmaker>impatient kids these days
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04:35<chillcore>yeah terrible attention span and patience
04:35<chillcore>o/ planemaker and V453000
04:36<V453000>fuck humanz
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10:35<@planetmaker>new fish, eh? :)
10:37<andythenorth>we’re cleaning FIRS branches?
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10:49<@planetmaker>oh, I said I would, did I?
10:49<andythenorth>we just close them?
10:49<@planetmaker>actually I did. And forgot to push :P
10:49<@planetmaker>Just pushed
10:50<@planetmaker>5 changesets, -4 heads :)
10:50<alluke>what are rcyc composed of?
10:50<@planetmaker>r, c, y and c
10:51<alluke>ha ha
10:51<andythenorth>it’s a non-specific term
10:51<alluke>recycled paper at least
10:52<alluke>for mnsp
10:52<alluke>arent they cardboard boxes and similar stuff
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10:57<alluke>i know but what are the fmsp, bdmt and chemicals made of exactly?
10:58<andythenorth>chemicals are made of chemicals
10:59<andythenorth>farm supplies are whatever farms need
10:59<andythenorth>building materials are for building stuff
10:59<alluke>but what of those can you bake from rubbish
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11:06<@planetmaker>alluke, possibly each of them
11:08<argoneus>le train face
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11:08<argoneus>you guys are C/C++ wizards right
11:08<argoneus>I need some advice
11:08<argoneus>how do you guys load plugins, e.g. newgrfs while the game is running?
11:09<argoneus>I'm trying to write a program with some plugins that are basically scripts
11:09<argoneus>that will be able to reload them without restarting
11:10<@planetmaker>the file is simply read anew and its content re-evaluated
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11:11<@planetmaker>and that's why doing so in run-time of a game regularily messes with the savegame, rendering them broken beyond repair
11:11<Samu>sorry, my internet today is failin
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11:36<kamnet>Good mrning all
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11:36<kamnet>or afternoon to some. maybe evening. heck, hi.
11:36<@Alberth>kamnet: use UGT :)
11:39<@Alberth>universal greeting time
11:39<@Alberth>invented at irc
11:39<@Alberth>it's morning when you join, and evening when you leave
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11:40<kamnet>Makes sense!
11:40<@Alberth>so, morning (ugt) to you kamnet :)
11:40<kamnet>Funny thing, been on the Internet since 1994, and by and large IRC culture isn't all that familiar.
11:41<kamnet>I imagine it's like somebody who's been connected for 20 years asking how email is used and what's it good for.
11:41<@Alberth>one of the advantages of having a distributed system :)
11:42<kamnet>Then again, I still dabble in the even more obscure these days - BBS. :P
11:44<soupy>So, I have the vacuum maglev NewGRF, and it's causing me troubles even 50 years before it's been invented. I find myself not wanting to create my continental express line yet because I don't believe there's a way of upgrading from maglev to vacuum maglev.
11:46<@Alberth>upgrading is boring, build new lines instead
11:48<V453000>PURR probably works between anything, but I am not sure
11:48<soupy>Well, I'm definitely upgrading up to the maglev level (thank you monorail and maglev upgrade NewGRF), then run the vacuum tube around it.
11:48<V453000>hm maybe not
11:49<V453000>why isnt there CC_EVERYTHING for tracktypes? :P
11:50<@Alberth>just use NUTS, and you don't need to upgrade
11:50<soupy>To be honest, even the monorail maglev upgrade thing is a bit OP for me. Electric trains should not be able to run on monorail track.... but Jesus, if I have to go through and recreate all my trains all over again...
11:51<Samu>when i want to upgrade rail, i send all trains to depots
11:51<soupy>I do like the idea of having a bit of logistics fun in running a concurrent vacuum line though.
11:51<@Alberth>soupy: default set forces that upgrade on you, fix it by using a better vehicle newgrf
11:51<Samu>then use a big square box upgrading everything in the map
11:51<Samu>then the boring part, upgrading trains
11:52<@Alberth>yeah, don't ever simply upgrade, it's just boring work
11:52<Samu>pick trains one by one, from the list
11:52<Samu>center location, it's on an old depot
11:52<Samu>build new depot near it
11:52<soupy>I'm using NARS and a couple of other sets.
11:53<Samu>copy the orders, build the same wagons, and start it
11:53<V453000>that doesnt quite work if you have hundreds of trains Samu
11:53<@Alberth>soupy: too much choice for me :)
11:53<Samu>then do the same for every other
11:53<V453000>still stupid tedious process I can solve by one click with autoreplace
11:54<@Alberth>usually you need a different number of trains on the faster tracks
11:54<V453000>not with nuts :)
11:54<soupy>Alberth: Yeah, this is the first time I've played modded OTTD, going with too many sets was a bad idea. Plus the progression between sets is a little bit off, so there's always one set that blows everything else away.
11:55<V453000>with nuts the faster train classes have lower capacities or some other problem, so the number of trains you actually need stays similar
11:55<V453000>with exceptions of course
11:56<soupy>Do I want this 200km/h engine for $250,000 a year, or this 150km/h engine for $300,000?
11:57<@Alberth>the biggest problem with nuts, but also any other train set, is that I don't have high speed vehicles available at the start :p
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11:57<@Alberth>soupy: depends on terrain and amount of TE :)
11:57<@Alberth>soupy: but yeah, sets are not tuned against each other
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11:58<soupy>Yeah, I'm trying to pay more attention to numbers other than raw speed on this playthrough.
11:58<V453000>Alberth: start in 2000? :D
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11:58<@Alberth>it means imho basically that playing with a more than one vehicle set is useless if they overlap in time
11:59<@Alberth>V453000: that's an idea :)
11:59<@Alberth>don't think I ever tried that :)
12:00<V453000>2100 master race :P
12:00<@Alberth>hmm, making a newgrf for maglev at 1930 shouldn't be too difficult either :)
12:01<soupy>I started in 1850 on this go-around. Apparently I forgot to include an early ship NewGRF... made startup a little more difficult.
12:02<kamnet>If you don't ever want to deal with upgrading, just use one rail set and one train set that gives you everything all at once. Then you can focus on pure gameplay of serving industry.
12:02<@Alberth>I usually start abort, fix, and start again in such a case
12:02<@Alberth>kamnet: aka NUTS :)
12:03<@Alberth>I hardly ever play for more than 50 years or so
12:04<@Alberth>I know, so many undisclosed fancyness :(
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12:05<soupy>I've gone from 1850 to 2000 way too quickly in this playthrough. I was mostly screwing around with magic I didn't understand (Cargodist), and lacked ships, so a lot of the time I had to let the game just run to make money.
12:06<@Alberth>ah, yeah, used NARS for the first time last week or so, takes ages to make any money :p
12:06<soupy>Now I (think I) know how to use Cargodist, I'm tempted to start again and see how quickly I can bang through early-game.
12:06<@Alberth>set is very nicely balanced in that respect
12:06<soupy>Definitely, I've enjoyed the challenge.
12:07<V453000>I think it is questionnable if "making barely any money" is a good thing :P
12:07<V453000>just shows who wants to build and who wants to wait :P
12:07<@Alberth>yeah, I wasn't enjoying it much, in terms of game play
12:09<@Alberth>but just watching trains can be satisfying too at times, especially when you are really too tired to do much building :p
12:10<V453000>well sure :)
12:10<V453000>but if you are bored or tired of building at the start of the game, something is probably wrong
12:11<soupy>Yeah, I don't enjoy building quite as much any more. I'm more into the logistics of perfecting each route. The slow progression has given me a lot of time to tweak things.
12:11<@Alberth>V453000: the disease is called 'working', there is no easy escape :(
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12:14<@Alberth>playing with busy-bee that tells you what connections to make it just manageable :)
12:17<soupy>Right now I'm fighting to make my engineering supply chain more effective. 5 bauxite mines being trucked to a close-by aluminum plant, then metal shipped by train to the machine shop.
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12:17<soupy>It's just producing enough engineering supplies to keep 1 mine at double capacity.
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12:20<soupy>I really dislike the role that vehicle speed plays in industry production. Taking a 17% production hit because you want to play with trucks is BS.
12:21<Samu>nerf trains
12:22<soupy>I don't want to nerf trains, I want trucks to be un-nerfed. :P
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12:24<V453000>you can hack it with FIRS
12:24<V453000>the station rating hax XD
12:25<soupy>Is that the one where you have a one-tile station with a train in it at all times?
12:28<V453000>no, in the grf parameters the grf is able to hack station ratings to be always 100% or much more friendly
12:28<@Alberth>you can just change how station rating works in the parameters of FIRS
12:28<V453000>I personally hate the feature because it means you dont have to care if you pickup of ten or not often, which is not motivating bullshit, but k :)
12:30<@Alberth>I never use 100%
12:30<@Alberth>in fact, I care very little for the amount of cargo
12:31<@Alberth>"enough to make a profit" is sufficient :)
12:31<Samu>wasn't there a setting that made industries more volatile?
12:32<@Alberth>FIRS is also boring as production doesn't change much over time
12:32<Samu>they could instantly lose 50% production or so
12:32<@Alberth>Samu: the original production setting
12:32<@Alberth>hi hi planetmaker
12:32<Samu>ah, :)
12:33<Samu>they could even bankrupt
12:33<@Alberth>variations are bigger, but they happen less often, so it may not make much difference
12:34<soupy>If I could set it to just give me the 17% that I'm losing for using trucks back, then I'd be happy.
12:34<kamnet>I guess I should start mocking up a GRFID wiki page.
12:35<@Alberth>soupy: add a statue in the town?
12:35<soupy>It's nowhere near a town, unfortunately.
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12:38<Samu>I finally made some progress about prospecting oil rigs while maintaining part of the old behaviour:!794&authkey=!ANXP6eHUDNnQh-M&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng
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12:39<Samu>the yellow square
12:39<Samu>is the part that does not conform to the original behaviour
12:39<Samu>should fail, but i dunno if that would make sense
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12:44<Samu>what do you think?
12:44<Samu>you prospect an oil rig and it ends on your canal, setting to allow canal on competitor is off, should it pass or fail?
12:45<V453000>give 0 shit
12:45<@Alberth>it's a non-issue, canals aren't big enough for oil rigs
12:46<V453000>you can build a fat canal :P
12:46<chillcore>is not wanting an oilrig on my canal a valid answer too?
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12:50<@Alberth>chillcore: easy, don't build fat canals :p
12:50<@planetmaker>I could still build a ship depot there :)
12:51<@planetmaker>not sure whether it's actually an issue
12:51<chillcore>usually when I build a canal I have boats coming through too ...
12:52<@planetmaker>The question is: if an industry is prospected or even randomly generated: do they build also on player-owned water? If so, then it's a non-issue. If not, then it can be rightfully argued that players shouldn't be allowed either
12:52<chillcore>otherwise it is wasted money ...
12:53<chillcore>planetmaker: for as far as I know prospectined industries do not end up on your terrain?
12:53<chillcore>hmm owner_town ... can they?
12:53<frosch123>industries with random locations do not clear player property
12:54<chillcore>thank you for comfirming frosch
12:54<chillcore>funding is another storie
12:54<frosch123>funded industries where the player picks the location can be placed on the land of the funder
12:54<@planetmaker>chillcore, I would suspect, but I'd not bet on it. Water is water and it would be built possibly
12:54<@planetmaker>and owned land is different; that definitely is not used
12:54<chillcore>that I have tested yes frosch
12:55<@planetmaker>so indeed, maybe canals should be forbidden to be built upon
12:55<@planetmaker>by other people than the actual owner
12:55<chillcore>planetmaker canals are lpayer owned untill bankrupty
12:55<@planetmaker>yup. like roads
12:55<chillcore>so non issue really
12:55<@planetmaker>can I build a road stop on your road?
12:55<chillcore>if I allow you to yes
12:55<chillcore>I have no prob with that
12:56<chillcore>if you try to block me raodvehicles clip
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12:57<Samu_>bah my internet
12:57<Samu_>i missed the answers
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12:57<chillcore>hmm ...
12:59<LordAro>Samu_: ^
12:59<Samu_>oh, thanks
13:00<LordAro>(hey all)
13:00<chillcore>o/ LordAro
13:02<Samu_>i changed this part for the prospecting /* Prospected industries not built on water are built as OWNER_TOWN to not e.g. be build on owned land of the founder */
13:02<Samu_>Owner prospector = OWNER_TOWN;
13:02<Samu_>if ((indspec->behaviour & INDUSTRYBEH_BUILT_ONWATER) && _current_company < MAX_COMPANIES) prospector = _current_company;
13:03<Samu_>Backup<CompanyByte> cur_company(_current_company, prospector, FILE_LINE);
13:03<Samu_>should be sufficient I think
13:03<@Alberth>Samu_: use a paste bin
13:03<Samu_>ok ok
13:03<chillcore>samu: prospected industries should never end up on anyones owned land/water, not even your own
13:04<chillcore>if you want an industry on your land/water ... fund one
13:04<Samu_>line 44 to 47 is changed
13:05<Samu_>then at some other part of the code, I make the decisions based on settings and such
13:06<Samu_>let me get the other part
13:07<Samu_>line 65 to 73
13:09<Samu_>didn't have to change anything in water_cmd.cpp
13:10<Samu_>as I initially thought I had to
13:10<chillcore>samu: p->x is syntactic sugar for (*p).x
13:10<chillcore>someone reading the logs asked me to pass this to you
13:10<chillcore>in regards of that arrow you asked about yesterday
13:18<kamnet>LOL wondered when you were going to mention that chillcore
13:18<chillcore>when the time was right kamnet ;)
13:19<chillcore>him posting that code reminded me
13:19<chillcore>as it is the same code when he asked about it
13:19<frosch123>sometime p->x can also be p.operator->()->x
13:20<chillcore>*grumble* pointers *grumble*
13:20<frosch123>i am sure there is some compiler out there, which does not detect infinite syntax recursions involving ->
13:21<chillcore>ah ok
13:21<@Alberth>chillcore: the secret of pointers is that you have to differentiate between the pointer object itself, and the object pointed to. If you do that, they are quite easy
13:22<frosch123>struct Boo { Boo& operator->() { return *this; } };
13:22<@planetmaker>then and only then :)
13:22<@planetmaker>boo! ;)
13:22<@Alberth>fair enough s/If/Iff/ thus :)
13:23<chillcore>except when ... grrrr
13:23<soupy>You got your foo and bar mixed up there. Boofar doesn't quite have the same ring.
13:23<chillcore>but yeah Alberth I know they are not that hard ... it is the exceptions I hate about them
13:23<@Alberth>exceptions? which one?
13:24<chillcore>the ones I did glanced over ...
13:24<frosch123>test.cpp:13:5: error: circular pointer delegation detected :)
13:24<@Alberth>hah! :)
13:25<chillcore>those and the others
13:25<frosch123> <- someone has msvc?
13:25<@Alberth>you can download it, don't you? not sure it will do any good as .zip file :p
13:28<chillcore>on one of my other HDDs I have mscvc ... not sure if I want to boot it ... needs plugging in and boting other pc too
13:28<frosch123>i could try borland c 5 or so
13:28<chillcore>I can start it up if you need something tested ...
13:29<chillcore>but ...
13:29<chillcore>let's just say ... I don't like using it
13:30<chillcore>as in ... it does too many things for me
13:31<@Alberth>chillcore likes being active :)
13:31<chillcore>ye ... that
13:31<chillcore>you don't learn html by using dreamweaver all the time
13:32<frosch123>Fatal BOO.CPP 9: Out of memory
13:32<frosch123>with borland c++ 3.1 (1992)
13:33-!-liq3 [] has quit []
13:34<chillcore>eg this ... int* ipa, ipb, ipc;
13:35<chillcore>does not do what you think it does at first glance
13:35<@Alberth>yeah, that's why openttd says to typ "int *ipa"
13:36<chillcore>then all three are pointers?
13:36<chillcore>ah ok
13:36<@Alberth>but it's more clear that only the first is a pointer
13:36<Samu_>omg i can't believe i found a bug to a patch i submitted to flyspray
13:36<Samu_>grrr why do i suck
13:36<@Alberth>too eager to submit a patch?
13:37<chillcore>Alberth: I agree is it mre clear. but that is just the beginning there is more confusing stuffs IIRC
13:37<kamnet>It's only a bug. It's not the end of the world.
13:38<@Alberth>chillcore: I never combine pointers and non-pointers, it's too confusing for one line
13:38<Samu_>it throws me an assertion, my own assertion
13:38<Samu_>i am setting canal on river too early :(
13:38<Samu_>easy fix
13:39<chillcore>Alberth: maybe I should copy paste all the pointer bits from the various chapters
13:39<chillcore>does not help the stuff is in four not succesive ones
13:40<@Alberth>successive I think
13:40<chillcore>ye I did not look it up ... thank you
13:40<@Alberth>take out the in-between chapters :p
13:40-!-FLHerne [~flh@] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!]
13:42<chillcore>that may be the bast way yes
13:43<kamnet>I seem to remember there was a list of GRFIDs that were reserved by OpenTTD. Anybody remember where this list is at?
13:43<@Alberth>newgrf-specs would be my guess
13:44<frosch123>anything starting with FF
13:46<V453000>lmfao OzTrans reserved 4 ranges XD
13:46<frosch123>i would expect someone else entered them
13:47-!-oskari89 [] has quit []
13:47<chillcore>V453000: how did he reserve them? first come first serve on bananas
13:48<frosch123>V453000: according to that list andy also has 4 ranges :p
13:48<V453000>well sure, according to that table :P
13:48<frosch123>but i doubt andy would have been as stupid as to enter them
13:48<V453000>k :)
13:48<frosch123>unless for trolling reasons
13:48<chillcore>and if he starts disabling other peeps NewGRF actively peeps will real quick stpo using his
13:49<kamnet>It seems a bit silly, really.
13:51<chillcore>if everyone starts claiming his whole range of initials ... heck he does not even claim that ... he claims CA for cananda
13:51<chillcore>also if we need to go that route ... someone is already using my initials
13:51<V453000>good part is that such people tend to leave the community chillcore :P
13:52<chillcore>ye thank god
13:52<chillcore>CAxxxxx screw you california?
13:53<chillcore>and others ...
13:53<kamnet>If forever reason something better was to come along, it would be sensible to have a registration system in place where you use a generic GRFID to test your code, but when you're ready to publish you submit your code and are assigned a randomly-generated GRFID that is permanently registered to your project.
13:53<kamnet>*If for whatever reason, even.
13:53<frosch123>yeah, if we grow as fast as ipv4 :)
13:54<chillcore>kamnet you claim four letters
13:54<chillcore>and it ends there
13:54<chillcore>al four count
13:54<chillcore>CAOO is for someone else to claim
13:55<frosch123>i think the world may have a demand of about 5 big newgrf
13:55<kamnet>Well with OzTrans out of the way I'll make six!
13:55<kamnet>I kid. I honestly care not. If somebody complains about one of my GRFIDs conflicting, I'll just change it.
13:56<frosch123>or in other words: in the beginning of ip adressed, the big companies all had a 1.*.*.* range
13:56<LordAro>what's with "reserving" a whole YYxxxxxx block? they're not likely to make 16777216 grfs...
13:57-!-Samu_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:57<+glx>frosch123: and they still have it for most of them
13:57<chillcore>frosch: dynamic NewGRF ids ... sounds cool :P
13:58<kamnet>I'm going to request registering GRFIDs in Egyptian hieroglyphs. :P
13:58<chillcore>or chinese characters
13:59<@Alberth>just use UUIDs :)
14:01<V453000>I find this hypnotizing
14:02<chillcore>don't even want to spend my time on such stupidity ..; I tried talking to him ... then there was this test grf ...
14:02<chillcore>still waiting for the results ...
14:02<chillcore>lol I hope he reads this
14:03<chillcore>it is a grf you'll never see kamnet ;)
14:03<chillcore>it did nothing
14:03<chillcore>just testing bananas
14:03<chillcore>and then claiming not knowing how it works
14:03<chillcore>nuff said
14:04-!-Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05-!-Samu [] has joined #openttd
14:05<soupy>So, I have 13 years of web development under my belt, got my teeth into a number of programming languages over time and pick things up quickly. How difficult really is it to make a NewGRF?
14:05-!-Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
14:06<@Alberth>depends on how difficult you like it :p
14:06<frosch123>soupy: there are plenty of open source newgrfs, so, just look at them
14:06<@Alberth>and what you want to achieve too
14:06<kamnet>With NML, for most stuff it's fairly decent.
14:06<frosch123>if you want to do something similar to an existing grf, you may be lucky
14:06<kamnet>With NFO, might be a bit more challenging.
14:07<frosch123>if you want to do something else you may hit a wall :p
14:07<V453000>industry production mechanism is utter bullshit.
14:08<kamnet>My memory sucks. I've learned a lot of NFO just by examining code and then following NewGRF Specs, but one I get busy with work or something else and I'm not actively using it, I forget it all.
14:09-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
14:09<kamnet>Which is why I can turn the town statue into a flag pole, but I can't make a NewGRF that lets users select from a variety of flags, or even generate a flag in 2CC
14:09<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01
14:09<Wolf01>hi hi
14:11<kamnet>Or why I can't manage to figure out how to merge the various Fake Airport releases into one sensible project with everything. :P
14:12-!-Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:12<kamnet>Maybe once NML is ready to start creating stations, I'll give it a serious effort
14:13<@planetmaker>make a newobject newgrf for the fake airports. easy
14:13<soupy>Oh NFO... boy that takes me back to the darker days of coding.
14:13<soupy>I'm so thankful for the intelligent ones who have gone before us and created things like NML
14:13<kamnet>Everybody's done beat me to it, planetmaker.
14:13-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1002:8400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has quit [Quit: Only mortals are affected by fame and power.]
14:14<kamnet>So I just give them the sprites and tell 'em to have fun!
14:14<@planetmaker>err-no-parse. But yeah :P
14:16<kamnet>I think right now the only "must have" project I want to embark on is making a station set that lets you build more convincing fake subways.
14:16-!-chillcore [~chillcore@2a02:a03f:1002:8400:4e72:b9ff:feac:5979] has joined #openttd
14:17<V453000>people just wont give up on the underground idea will they XD
14:17<kamnet>Well that needs to happen, too, but...
14:18<@planetmaker>underground is soooo ancient ;)
14:18<kamnet>Stations with city buildings and parking lots and big stadiums above them.
14:18<V453000>nice! I thought exactly of that screenshot pm XD
14:19<LordAro>haven't seen smatz around in a while
14:19<@planetmaker>they're definitely older than the 2008 file date :)
14:19-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:19<@planetmaker>or maybe not? Dunno
14:19<frosch123>i would guess november 2007
14:20<kamnet>I def have way more ideas than I have time or energy to carry out
14:20<@planetmaker>hm, so as ancient as my OpenTTD times :)
14:22<frosch123>[Mi Sep 12 2007] [16:36:30] <SmatZ> http://.../ttd/tunnel.ogg tunnels :)
14:22<V453000>I just wanted to say something intelligent like "you fucking fossils" and then I realized that I am around since 2009 ._.
14:24<Samu>i'm getting this message when i am editing one of my posts in the forum You can no longer edit or delete that post.
14:24<LordAro>V453000: 2009 high five
14:24<chillcore>you has 7 days to edit except for the first post samu
14:25<Samu>ok, new post then
14:25<kamnet>You can thank OzTrans for that, too.
14:25<V453000>man look at these fossils
14:25<LordAro>chillcore: ah, the oztrans incident
14:25<chillcore>come to think of it ... same dude ... grrr
14:26<chillcore>anyhoo after 7 days I have little to edit so ...
14:26<chillcore>would benice however if it was three posts
14:26<LordAro>i believe that's been mentioned before
14:26<LordAro>not sure how flexible phpbb is with such things though
14:26<LordAro>at a guess, i'd say "not very"
14:27<chillcore>ye I mentioned it ;)
14:27-!-roidal [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1]
14:27<chillcore>because the frist three posts of my patchpack thread are instructions
14:28<@planetmaker>put all instructions in one posting. No reason not to :)
14:28<@planetmaker>If you need more images, attach them in subsequent ones, but link them in the first
14:28<@planetmaker>attach new versions of images in new(er) postings and amend the links accordingly
14:28<@planetmaker>No need to edit more than first posting
14:28<chillcore>haha I asked for the first pst to be split in three ... frosch was kind enough to copy paste the first one twice
14:28<@planetmaker>My forum signature is attached to my very first posting :)
14:29<chillcore>could ask to undo but it is fine really
14:29<chillcore>any continuation will be a new patchpack and thread so
14:29<frosch123>chillcore: huh?
14:29<chillcore>you forgot ... that is fine
14:30<frosch123>i am no moderator at forums
14:30-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:30<andythenorth>I reserved ranges? :o
14:30<andythenorth>wtf? :P
14:30<chillcore>hmm then who did? ... nvm and my apologies frosch
14:30<andythenorth>I can’t even edit the wiki
14:30<andythenorth>to remove that crap
14:31<chillcore>frosch: I really thought it was you ... :blush:
14:31<andythenorth>seriously there are not going to be 255 grfids used by FISH
14:31<andythenorth>or CHIPS
14:31<andythenorth>HEQS is dead, so eh
14:31<V453000>frosch is behind everything
14:32<andythenorth>maybe I accidentally ‘reserved’ ranges by changing grfid, back when we used to do that
14:32<andythenorth>can someone bin those from the wiki?
14:32<frosch123>V453000: it's not my fault, if my unicorns chase you in the dark
14:33<chillcore>maybe it was Y*xo ...
14:33<chillcore>I always mix you two up ... don't ask me why
14:33<frosch123>we are both tall
14:33<frosch123>i am more fat than yexo
14:33*andythenorth has such different pictures of people
14:33<chillcore>If you say so ;)
14:34<andythenorth>we are all short in my imagination, except Eddi
14:34<V453000>Eddi is the shortest
14:38<LordAro>when's the r30k party? :p
14:39*andythenorth wonders what this code is actually doing
14:39<frosch123>LordAro: question is rather, will there really be a forum party in utrecht :p
14:40<LordAro>frosch123: oh yeah, that was going to be a thing, wasn't it
14:40*andythenorth tries to draw those tile checks on a grid
14:40<andythenorth>they make no sense
14:41<andythenorth>if they were only checked for the N tile they would make sense
14:41<andythenorth>hmm, maybe they are
14:41<@planetmaker>question also: when will there be the forum party in utrecht?
14:41<chillcore>party ... yay
14:43*andythenorth thinks that tile check is overkill
14:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not for a water mill :)
14:45<V453000>lol 20% on each date
14:46<+michi_cc>frosch123: JFTR msvc does: "error C2818: application of overloaded 'operator ->' is recursive through type 'Boo'"
14:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: ? o_O
14:46<@planetmaker>thinking of a water-powered grain mill :)
14:46<@planetmaker>or the gas station
14:47<@planetmaker>not sure though. Could all be done in the location check, I guess
14:48<andythenorth>can you read it?
14:48<andythenorth>is it checking specifically the north tile?
14:48<andythenorth>it’s accessing unnamed vars by number that I can’t be bothered to look up :P
14:49<Samu>is this good english? STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL_HELPTEXT :Allow construction of docks and locks on canals owned by other companies. Also allows water based industries such as Oil Rigs to be funded or prospected on canals owned by other companies.
14:49-!-tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
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14:50<Xaroth|Work>is that an alias for E_OUT_OF_FUCKS_TO_GIVE ?
14:51<LordAro>Samu: it's helptext, that's fine
14:51<LordAro>it's perfectly good english though
14:51<Samu>allow or allows?
14:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you mean the layout check for the petrol station?
14:52<LordAro>doesn't really matter, i guess "allows" would be better though
14:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: yup
14:52<Samu>ok, fixing
14:52<V453000>I like E_OUT_OF_FUCKS_TO_GIVE :D
14:53<@planetmaker>what's difficult about it? It simply checks the presence of a road tile somewhere adjacent to the industry - depending on layout... I'm sure I once knew what tile they referred to exactly :)
14:53<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL_HELPTEXT :Allows construction of docks and locks on canals owned by other companies. Also allows water based industries such as Oil Rigs to be funded or prospected on canals owned by other companies.
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14:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: relative to which tile? (eh don’t bother working it out, I’m fairly certain it’s reading the N tile of industry out of the cb)
14:54<LordAro>V453000: needs more T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
14:54<Wolf01>pffft I want to play diablo... patching :E
14:54<V453000>what the shit
14:54<LordAro>V453000: php, obvs
14:54<Wolf01>ahaha that PHP weird :: error
14:55<V453000>NOT OBVS
14:56<@planetmaker>if not specified, to the Northern most, yes
14:56<@planetmaker>of the layout
14:56<@planetmaker>that's a good bet with OpenTTD :)
14:57-!-Samu [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:58<Rubidium>planetmaker: "luckily" last weekend dropped two possible dates for me from the possible dates for a meet; now I can only participate on the dates with a 2.
14:59-!-Samu [] has joined #openttd
14:59<soupy>So, can someone explain to me the reason for planes being so slow by default. "No, OpenTTD, that plane is not flying at 320km/h".
15:00<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes. But I'd have hoped that orudge meanwhile would have set a date. The June and July dates approach really quickly and more and more people will make plans, thus participation will probably get scarcer the longer a date setting is delayed
15:00<LordAro>soupy: planes too OP pls nerf
15:00<LordAro>hence, 1/4 speed
15:00<chillcore>^^^ settings gui
15:01<soupy>Well, I figured that out, but they are still expensive to buy and run, that should be enough of a gate to using them by itself.
15:01<@Alberth>soupy: on large maps (> 256x256) they are too profitable
15:01<@Alberth>they were never tuned down to compensate for the larger distances
15:02<Samu>enable breakdowns
15:02<Samu>problem solv
15:02<LordAro>pfft, no one does that
15:03<soupy>I don't like changing gameplay options to make things easier generally... however the AV8 NewGRF recommends turning the speed up, and if they think I should....
15:03<LordAro>soupy: you are free to do whatever you want, of course, but make a plane route from one corner of the map to the other and see what happens..
15:04<Samu>i tried that on a 4096x4096
15:04<Samu>took 3 years
15:05<soupy>Right. I totally get that... but I would love to be able to drop-ship farming supplies to a few locations with a helicopter, but right now it isn't at all feasible.
15:05<LordAro>Samu: ha
15:05<LordAro>Samu: how much money did you get at the end of it?
15:05<Samu>dont remember, i can try it again
15:05<chillcore>haha I tried that on 32k * 64 ... E_too_long_to_wait
15:06<Samu>what aircraft do you want me to test?
15:06<Samu>breakdowns on, off?
15:06<soupy>I guess I never figured it with the payment bonuses for speed. I'd be willing to forego payment completely if it meant having usable aircraft.
15:06<LordAro>try default settings
15:06<soupy>I'll probably change the settings anyway.
15:07<Samu>default settings has inflation
15:07<chillcore>soupy: in the end it is your game, but you'll be drowning in money very fast
15:08<chillcore>just have fun is all that matters
15:08<soupy>Ugh. Life is HARD.
15:09<Samu>reduced breakdowns for default settings hmm
15:12<chillcore>not good?
15:12<Samu>generating world zzzz
15:13<@Alberth>use a less large world
15:13<@Alberth>you're not going to fill it anyway
15:13<Samu>ok, generating 20480 industries
15:13<chillcore>download more RAM :P
15:13<@Alberth>3D print it :p
15:13<chillcore>or less industreis
15:13<chillcore>that would be cool Alberth
15:13<chillcore>reminds me of this ...
15:14<chillcore>1 sec
15:14<@Alberth>yeah, puttng the chip manufacturers out of business :p
15:14<andythenorth>given that LSF_ONLY_ON_FLAT_LAND is set, what’s wrong with this picture? o_O
15:15<Samu>i bet default settings use 1 industry per town thing... it's slowing down
15:15<chillcore>but the end is really interesting ... plans for working phone o_O
15:16<Samu>map ready
15:16<andythenorth>land_shape_flags failing is a regression
15:17<andythenorth>is it FIRS, nml, or OpenTTD?
15:18<Samu>coordinates: 49 x 4009 x 2
15:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth, are foundations allowed?
15:18<@planetmaker>by the industry
15:18-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
15:19<Samu>coordinates 2: 4034 x 43 x 3
15:19<Samu>aircraft is a Coleman Count
15:19-!-sla_ro|master [] has quit []
15:19*andythenorth looks
15:20<andythenorth>I thought land_shape_flags handled that? o_O
15:20<Samu>lol, so slow even with fast forward
15:21<LordAro>Samu: you didn't cheat yourself money or change the year?
15:21<@planetmaker>hm... yeah... no clue currently
15:22<andythenorth>I read this as ‘cannot build on slopes’
15:22<andythenorth>my nml has ‘land_shape_flags: bitmask(LSF_ONLY_ON_FLAT_LAND);'
15:23<@planetmaker>yes, I see that in the code. Can you try to set also additionally the other LSF_CANNOT_LOWER_XXX ?
15:23<@planetmaker>and I recall some industry (tile?) flag to allow foundations or not. But I don't find it
15:24-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:25<andythenorth>there is one to draw foundations or not
15:25<andythenorth>different case
15:25<@planetmaker>ah, there is a callback to (dis)allow foundations. Generally disallow them for them then
15:25<@planetmaker>for the tiles
15:25<@planetmaker>and /or disallow autoslope
15:25<@planetmaker>especially the latter
15:26*andythenorth wonders if this is a new or old bug in FIRS
15:26<@Alberth>you didn't discover it earlier
15:26<andythenorth>bah :)
15:26<TrueBrain>*epic win*
15:27<chillcore>also ... is the terrain flat enough for it to be able to terraform the surrounding tiles?
15:27<chillcore>not sure if it is related ...
15:27-!-Myhorta[1] [] has joined #openttd
15:27<chillcore>Alberth: nice one
15:30<Samu>aircraft is 3 years old atm, still didn't complete its journey
15:31*andythenorth wonders if the location checks over-ride land_shape_flags
15:31<soupy>Samu, what's the cargo?
15:32<Samu>breakdown since nearly the beginning
15:32<Samu>poor aircraft
15:34<chillcore>andythenorth: what location specific stuffs have you set? what industire? have ou tried building it manually on a flat peice of land?
15:34-!-Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:34<chillcore>also MHL does some checking yes
15:35<andythenorth>it’s a new regression in FIRS
15:35<andythenorth>I’ve compared it to the last tag
15:35<soupy>The curve-to-linear graph is pretty cool.
15:35<Samu>that patch with lifetime profit, when will it be in the real game? that's so handy now
15:35<soupy>Second from the bottom
15:35<andythenorth>balls, now I have to build full FIRS to see what the code looks like in the tag
15:35<andythenorth>I hate this
15:35<andythenorth>takes bloody ages
15:39<chillcore>soupy: yes ... after a certain distance value stops dropping
15:39<andythenorth>industry tile action 0
15:39<chillcore>money printers ...
15:40<chillcore>aircraft are too easy because of that
15:40<chillcore>not just that but yeah
15:40*andythenorth has a default property block for the industry tile, and ‘if’ blocks declaring parameter-specific properties
15:40<Samu>4 years old, zzz i dont recall taking this much time
15:40*andythenorth wonders whether the ‘if’ blocks overwrite the default block for tiles
15:40<andythenorth>doesn’t happen for industries
15:42<Samu>aha, i see it on the minimap
15:42<Samu>it's approaching airport
15:43<andythenorth>ho new code is missing a slope check
15:43<andythenorth>so land_shape_flags are nonsense
15:43<andythenorth>zero effect
15:45<andythenorth>if the cb is running
15:45<Samu>Income: £30,095
15:45<Samu>timetable says it travelled for 23 days, I don't trust that
15:45<Samu>aircraft is 5 years old
15:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I think the location checks do override landshape flags
15:46<andythenorth>nml docs don’t mention it afaict
15:47<andythenorth>I can’t edit them though
15:47<andythenorth>hmm, maybe I should register andythenorth2 on the wiki
15:47<andythenorth>“I can’t edit” is lame
15:47<Samu>took 5 years to get £30,095, in my opinion it's not worth it
15:47<@planetmaker>why can't you edit it?
15:48<andythenorth>can’t log in
15:48<andythenorth>my account is unified with forums, I used to be able to get in
15:48<@planetmaker>eh? same as newgrf wiki?
15:48<andythenorth>then one day I couldn't
15:48<andythenorth>it’s newgrf wiki I can’t get into
15:49<andythenorth>ottd wiki I am in
15:49<andythenorth>I changed my forums pwd some time ago
15:49<andythenorth>more secure :P
15:49<andythenorth>I think it relates to that
15:49<andythenorth>probably it’s rare that any of us rotate pwds
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>rotating passwords is a terrible idea, anyway
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>with most people, it means that the passwords get simpler, and thus less secure against brute force attacks
15:51<@planetmaker>" The land/water check is disabled for this tile so it can be built on water. If you need more control over this use callback 0x2F. " from industry's location check. But yes, that's not clear enough
15:52<andythenorth>ha, my previous auth creds were pretty likely compromised by at least one of the major services that have been compromised :)
15:52<andythenorth>I had years of same id/pwd combo
15:53<andythenorth>until that was fixed :P
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, sure. you need to have a (even slightly) different password for each website
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>and probably a password manager
15:53<andythenorth>all of that :)
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>and make sure that nobody gets physical access to your computer
15:54<chillcore>passsword manager ... sounds secure ... only one passwordto crack
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: sure, but one that is less commonly accessed than some random corporation's storage
15:55<chillcore>true true
15:55<@planetmaker>chillcore, yes, one. But that one then can be pretty good one :)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: also, a password on a sticky note is more secure than people think
15:56<chillcore>I have different ones even for my HDDs ...and indeed I have a piece of paper just in case
15:56*planetmaker uses a password DB, too
15:56<chillcore>nowhere near my pc though
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>because people that want your password don't overlap with the people that break into your house/office that much
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15:57<chillcore>I saw PCs with passwrds stickied to them ... in plain view for all to see
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>that is, unless you need the password to hide things from your wife/kids/boss/...
15:57<chillcore>multiple of them
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>there are also systems where you can have two passwords, one to access the data, and one to access a fake set of data
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16:00<@planetmaker>that's what truecrypt could do
16:00<@planetmaker>point is, you need to regularily refresh the fake data, too. Or you cannot credibly argue that they're real data when the last timestamp is months old and you use your machine daily
16:01<chillcore>I've heard of setups that erase the disk upon entering the wrong password
16:01<chillcore>does not help against those that know whatto do but yeah
16:01<chillcore>'those' are few
16:02<@planetmaker>it's an excellent DOS attack, though :)
16:03<chillcore>only peeps that have real things to hide do that ... I know of nobody IRL
16:03-!-FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
16:03<@planetmaker>which is a difference to you know nobody who does ;)
16:04<chillcore>hehe ye
16:04<chillcore>I saw an interview with someone who had that ... that is not IRL is it?
16:05<chillcore>this channel confuse me so often :P
16:05<Samu_>hey, i have a suggestion
16:05<Samu_>when max station spread is a low value
16:05<Samu_>disable airports
16:05<Samu_>those which can't be placed
16:05<chillcore>makes me think real hard and me likes
16:07<chillcore>samu: ye people are jumping up and down for frustrating mechanics all the time ... good idea
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>if they had something to hide, they'd have done a terrible job of it if you knew about it.
16:10<chillcore>also true
16:10<frosch123>noone knows about the unicorns in my garage
16:11<frosch123>at least noone believes me :p
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>that is a good defense tactic
16:11<@planetmaker>frosch123, except the animal rights union or so. Await the protesters for not treating them for how they're supposed to be treated ;)
16:11<frosch123>though, V maybe
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>make your secret open, but so obscure, that nobody thinks it's true
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's why NSA and Co. regularly put people into "conspiracy" groups, to distract from their actual wrongdoings
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>as long as the world things, conspiracy theorists are total nutjobs, it doesn't matter how close they actually are to the truth
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>must be my saxon heritage :p
16:14<frosch123>how do you mean? they are definitely nutjobs
16:14<frosch123>even if they are right
16:14*andythenorth thinks bedtime
16:14<andythenorth>but yeah
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it doesn't matter either way
16:15<andythenorth>the conspiracy is there, it’s just not the one the conspiracy people think it is
16:15-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:16<Eddi|zuHause> <-- about conspiracy theories, that eventually turned about to be true [german]
16:18<@planetmaker>alternativlos... one of the worst words of the decade
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's called irony :)
16:21<chillcore>there are more then a few case yeah where things turned out to be true
16:21<chillcore>sometimes worse then the theory itself
16:23*chillcore foods
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16:28<@planetmaker>Rubidium, frosch123 TrueBrain any chance to update the download link for OpenGFX to OpenGFX 0.5.1-RC1?
16:29<@planetmaker>or teach me how to do that myself :)
16:29<chillcore>and include tgen light please so peeps can have playable maps?
16:29<frosch123>i have no idea, but we also need anew release :)
16:30<TrueBrain>finger decides what is on the frontpage as download link
16:30<TrueBrain>but we normalyl dont put RCs there for these packages
16:30<TrueBrain>can I suggest first making it non-RC?
16:32<@planetmaker>frosch123, agreed
16:32<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, it's the only current release and every 1.5.0 user will need it
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but the point of an RC is to let it settle a bit before distributing it to everybody?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to skip that and distribute it anyway, just call it not-RC in the first place?
16:34<@planetmaker>it settled for two 6 weeks
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>so what prevents it from being called not-RC then?
16:36<@planetmaker>broken packaging
16:37<@planetmaker>mostly of NML
16:37<frosch123>well, there are equally many questions about zbase :p
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand
16:37<@planetmaker>indeed. But zBase is not the default people get via installer. Thus OpenGFX is worse
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16:39<Elukka>i got the ottd itch again and i'm updating my grfs
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly changed in the packaging process that prevents the exact same thing that became RC1 to become not-RC, with just the name changed
16:40<Elukka>i'm still using long vehicles... which is a fine set, but i'm wondering if there are newer sets that have similarly higher capacities than default to give road vehicles more of a niche?
16:40<@planetmaker>RC1 failed packaging, too, Eddi|zuHause :)
16:40<Elukka>plus maybe trams
16:40<@planetmaker>it only builds from the repos. Not from source tar balls
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>so then i still don't understand... why insist on distributing it before changing the name?
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16:47<chillcore>hmm woopise ... was cleaning grease of keys :P
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>unplug it first :p
16:48<chillcore>sensitive keyboard
16:48<chillcore>good idea that
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16:59<DanMacK>Let me guess... 5 minutes?
16:59<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
16:59<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 43 minutes and 48 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
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17:01<frosch123>rage quit :p
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>i find this truly amazing :p
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's been going on like this for years now :p
17:02<TrueBrain>and when they finally are online at the same time
17:02<TrueBrain>he says: hi
17:02<TrueBrain>and runs
17:03<chillcore>sometimes it feels like they are Jeckle and Hyde xD
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>why is there no Jekyll Park in london?
17:05<Supercheese>well, their collaborative grfs are amazing, so they are evidently doing something right
17:05-!-Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but maybe they should switch to email or forum-pm :p
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>or actually PLAN meatings ahead of time :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>[Donnerstag, 23. Dezember 2010] [21:46:16] <andythenorth> @seen Danmack <-- that seems to be the beginning of the drama
17:11<TrueBrain>I know a solution for it, if you like?
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think what _I_ like matters at all here :p
17:11<TrueBrain>I disagree
17:11<TrueBrain>but that might be what _I_ think :D
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>do you think what i'm thinking? :p
17:15<TrueBrain>depends ... do you think about fluffy unicorns?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>are you confusing me with someone else? :p
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17:18<TrueBrain>cats? :D
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>that is way more likely :p
17:19<kopoba>is this right place?
17:19<TrueBrain>*makes a fire*
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>kopoba: you can make a clickable link with "irc://..."?
17:19<TrueBrain>*starts to sing Kumbaya*
17:20<kopoba>Eddi|zuHause it leads here but i was thinking there is russian channel
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, this is the international channel. i don't know if there is a russian channel
17:20<kopoba>i see >English only
17:21<kopoba>in topic
17:21<TrueBrain>English is such a better language *Trolls*
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but almost nobody here is english :p
17:21<+glx>the wiki should precise the language
17:21<TrueBrain>nobody cares about the english people :D
17:22<kopoba>ok is there any way to upgrade all infrastructere from rails to monorails. I can replace all rails but stuck with replacing trains =(
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>kopoba: there is a "universal railtype" GRF that helps with replacing the trains
17:23<kopoba>Eddi|zuHause no way to do that without that grf?
17:23<Supercheese>sadly not
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, without that, you're bound to manual replacement
17:24<kopoba>then i dont understand why there is replacing tool
17:24<kopoba>for rails
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think the replacement tool for rails was introduced with elrails
17:25<chillcore>for trains of a different type you need a diiferent depot
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>so the primary task was electrifying rail
17:25<chillcore>you can buy new there and copy orders
17:26<kopoba>chillcore its pain when you have 100+ different trains and they have different orders
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, in most cases when you upgrade from rail to monorail, you probably do not need a 1:1 replacement of trains. since they are larger and faster, you need fewer of them
17:27<chillcore>huhu that is why I always have groups too ;)
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: you can easily have 100 groups :p
17:27<chillcore>Eddi|zuHause: indeed
17:29<kopoba>chillcore you make groupe for each pair of station?
17:29<chillcore>for each route
17:30<chillcore>my routes almost never have just two stations
17:30<chillcore>but yeah one group per route
17:31<chillcore>then I copy one vehicle's orders and ctrl-clone the others
17:31<kopoba>how ctrl-clone works?
17:31<chillcore>if you hold ctrl you clone the vehicle including the orders
17:33<chillcore>good night planetmaker
17:33<kopoba>chillcore can i make clone button hold in ON position while cloning?
17:34<kopoba>its hard and clone buttone clone with orders
17:34<kopoba>why you need to hold ctrl?
17:35<chillcore>for cloning a vehicle ... not the orders
17:35<Supercheese>you don't really need to, it is an option
17:36<Supercheese>regular clone still clones the orders
17:36<Supercheese>ctrl just also makes them shared orders
17:37<kopoba>Supercheese first time hear about shared orders
17:37<kopoba>where can i read abot that?
17:37<Supercheese>the wiki contains a wealth of information
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17:44<Supercheese>Ugh, want to work on my airports patch but I feel like crap :(
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17:49<kamnet>Suck it up, bucko! Drink your binkbaloba and your red bull and get crackin!
17:49<Supercheese>bleeeh red bull is awful
17:49<Supercheese>'sides I have enough coffee that caffeine is covered
17:56<kopoba>chillcore on what server you play?
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17:58<Samu>I'm getting lost with all these patches
18:02<Samu>when i find a bug in one, i have to go back to the others to fix them, this sucks
18:02<Samu>canal on river forces me to fix 3 other patches or so~
18:03<Samu>honestly, I don't feel like fixing the other patches
18:04<Samu>I'm not focusing on them
18:04<Samu>i build upon them
18:06<Samu>i dont know how to version these things
18:07<Samu>any suggestions?
18:07<Samu>I'm getting overwhelmed
18:07<FLHerne>A nice git repo with branches might help, if you don't already have that
18:07<Samu>a gir repo?
18:07<FLHerne>And have features that don't depend on each other in separate branches
18:08<Supercheese>Oh lord, git/hg is horribly confusing
18:08<Supercheese>I would not recommend it unless you're forced to (e.g. ottdcoop devzone)
18:08<FLHerne>Supercheese: I did think that, but once I realised how git works it's wonderfull and perfect :D
18:08<Supercheese>I still have yet to wrap my brain around it
18:08<Supercheese>svn is the only vcs that makes sense to me
18:09<FLHerne>svn is terrible for anything with branches though
18:09<Supercheese>but it's nice and simple
18:09<Supercheese>very entry-level
18:09<FLHerne>And dead-simple branching and merging is incredibly useful
18:10<FLHerne>But simplicity can make things harder to use, if they don't do the right things
18:10<Supercheese>I have to go back and read the manual every time I revisit projects on the devzone
18:10<FLHerne>Supercheese: Try 'git help' ;-)
18:10<Supercheese>Well, devzone uses hg
18:11<FLHerne>'hg help' then :P
18:12<Supercheese>in any event, I cannot recommend anything but svn for someone who has no familiarity with vcs
18:13-!-Elukka [] has quit []
18:13<Supercheese>although that is just me, of course
18:13<FLHerne>But svn doesn't have branching, and hence doesn't really solve Samu's problem
18:14<Supercheese>Hmm, it's a shame that the recommended solutions for solving issues of too much complexity involve adding yet more layers of complexity ...
18:14-!-gnu_jj [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:14<Supercheese>but c'est la vie
18:14<FLHerne>The problem with a purely-linear vcs is that it doesn't do anything about managing collections of unrelated changes
18:15<FLHerne>Being able to split changes into separate lines of development is a slightly steeper learning curve, but makes the actual use a lot simpler
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18:17<FLHerne>So you can have a 'stable tweaks' branch, and a 'make everything yellow' branch, and work on both alternately
18:18<Samu>i have to compile subversion
18:18<Samu>screw it
18:18<FLHerne>Samu: svn is really no fun, go with git :P
18:18<Supercheese>Ugh, why does OGFX+ have climate-dependent previews...
18:18<Supercheese>now I have to add them for the new ports
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18:24<Samu>here's my confusion:
18:26-!-wicope [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:30<Samu>i'm focusing on 2 patches only
18:30<Samu>Canal on River and that big named one
18:31<Samu>Game Setting for Oil Rig, With Better Layout, Dock and Lock on Competitor Canal on Permanent Rivers
18:31<Samu>it is built upon the previous one, with a slightly shorter name
18:31<Eddi|zuHause><kopoba> chillcore can i make clone button hold in ON position while cloning? <-- use the clone button in the train window, not the one in the depot window
18:32<Samu>Game Setting for Dock and Lock on Competitor Canal on Permanent Rivers
18:32<Samu>this one however is for me, pointless to fix
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>(the clone button in the train window is only visible if the train is inside a depot)
18:33<Samu>i fixed for the new one which also includes the oil rig, i feel kind of a moot point to go back and fix something I don't intend to use anymore
18:33<Samu>all previous variants are thus, bugged
18:34<Samu>do I really have to fix them?
18:41<kopoba>Eddi|zuHause dont see it =(
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>kopoba: in the window named "Train 2" there is on the right a button with two train engines
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>below the eye
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>likewise in "Train 1"
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>also, this is not a .png image
18:44<kopoba>wah wah wah
18:44<kopoba>many thanks
18:44<kopoba>yep its jpeg
18:45<kopoba>hosting convertation =\
18:46<Samu>that's the game I'm in lol
18:50<kopoba>Pink is goin to win =)
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18:51<Mr_Bones_>so... it looks like is missing files needed to build from source.
18:51<Samu>i made aircraft, my number 3 is carrying mail
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes. building nml is broken
18:51<Samu>and gets more than the passengers/mail ones
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>must be built from a source checkout
18:52<Mr_Bones_>are there tags or just head?
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a tag
18:52<Supercheese>why the devil are there even toyland climate previews of OGFX+ airports.....
18:52<Supercheese>why would anyone use the set in toyland
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>why would anyone use [...] toyland
18:53<Samu>what are your long term goals with toyland?
18:53<Samu>everybody hates it, i guess
18:54<Supercheese>Mars conversion is a common idea
18:54<Supercheese>or lunar, but that may or may not have been an April fool's joke
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>but why would you need to replace toyland for that?
18:55<Supercheese>Dunno, but there does exist a Toyland to Mars grf
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>that may be, but there is still no reason why that would be a good idea
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>the orginal mars was more of a sprite replacement for temperate
18:59<Samu>remove toyland from the game?
18:59<Supercheese>Nah, there's probably somebody who likes it; I know I did as a kid
19:00<Supercheese>it's fun to play when you're seven
19:00<Samu>put on its place one of your current NewGRFs i dunno
19:01<Samu>a mix of NewGRF sets as Toyland
19:01<Samu>just an idea
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>back as a kid i found mars to be incredibly heavy on the yes. especially the red water
19:01<Samu>but i dunno
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>mars conversion might be suitible as a base set
19:04-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
19:50<Samu>i'm looking at this static bool CheckShipLeaveDepot(Ship *v)
19:50<Samu> /* Both ways blocked */
19:50<Samu>wondering if this could be improved
19:52<Samu>cause you refused to fix
19:53<Samu>if both ways are blocked, it doesn't necessarily mean the ship is stuck, there could be 2 docks in each exits
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20:05<Supercheese>Ho, it compiled
20:05<Supercheese>whaddya know
20:15<Supercheese>wonder if I have commit access to the ogfx+ airports repo...
20:16<Supercheese>wellp, we'll see
20:17<Supercheese>seems so
20:21-!-Samu [] has joined #openttd
20:23<Supercheese>ah blast, I made the company colors in the previews the wrong shades
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20:32<kopoba>is there any place with grfs and images how it looks in game?
20:32<Supercheese>does not have a comprehensive database, but it has a lot
20:33<Supercheese>and the images are rather small
20:33<Supercheese>but it does have some
20:34<Supercheese>Ho, there's a newer version of MariCo that I do not yet have
20:34<Supercheese>how did that sneak by me...
20:36<kamnet>NewGRFs are very sneaky
20:37<Supercheese>You gotta be sneaky Charlie
20:37<Supercheese>Oh, MariCo is not on bananas, that's how it snuck by
20:42<Sylf>Since when are MB creations on bananas :D
20:42<Supercheese>Well, I had forgotten
20:42<Supercheese>even some of SACs stuff has now made it to bananas
20:44<Supercheese>anyway kamnet:
20:44<kamnet>Just downloaded :D
20:44<Supercheese>still working on the vintage commuter
20:45-!-kopoba [] has quit [Quit: óøîë ìå÷òàòü]
20:46<Supercheese>the climate-aware previews take a while to create
20:57<Samu>this is fixable, just need a way to tell which direction to take
20:58<Samu>v->direction = DiagDirToDir(north_dir);
20:58<Samu>v->direction = DiagDirToDir(south_dir);
20:58<Samu>i need a direction based on the pathfinder
20:58<Samu>it results in one of these two
20:58<Samu>how can i do it?
21:00*Sylf shakes his fist at the nightly backup process
21:01<Samu>need something like v->direction = DiagDirtoDir(pathfinder_results_tells_which_direction_is_better_to_take);
21:01<Eddi|zuHause><Sylf> Since when are MB creations on bananas :D <-- not before DBSet 0.9 is released
21:01<Samu>any hint?
21:02<Sylf>DBSet 0.9 is due out... February 22 of year 2222?
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
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21:21<Supercheese>Hmm, there are still lingering graphical issues with the vintage commuter airport
21:22<Samu>got this
21:24<Samu>was there a problem when ships could leave depots if the exits were blocked?
21:25<Samu>strange, seemed so easy to fix :(
21:25<Samu>that's why I ask
21:27<Samu>oh, crap, not really doing what I think, let me re-fix
21:30<Supercheese>Awesome, all issues fixed
21:31<Samu>i want the ship to be smart though
21:36<Samu>ah, got it
21:37<Samu>let me test will all different pathfinders
21:39<Samu>ah damn OPF
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21:53<Samu>okay, i see why I can't do this so easy
21:54<Samu>darn OPF
21:54<Supercheese>the original pathfinder is shit
21:54<Supercheese>don't bother with it
21:57<Samu>i can work around the issue
21:58<Samu>don't ask for any direction in case of OPF, just leave towards a "randomly chosen direction", apparently north
22:01<Samu>yeah, it likes to go north
22:01<Samu>so be it
22:04<kamnet>Interesting that water waves go from east to west, the windsock on the airports blow north to south, and smoke from chimney buildings gets blown south to north.
22:04<Supercheese>and none of them are affected by hills/slopes
22:04<Supercheese>that would change the windflow pattern :P
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22:27<supermop_>yo all
22:29<supermop_>need to figure out how to model catenary curves and surfaces in rhion without fancy plug-ins
22:30<supermop_>that or just use parabolae
22:31<supermop_>pretty easy to make various saddle shaped surfaces to approximate tensile membrane roofs but it will be coolto learn to do it more 'correctly
22:33<Samu>i found a bug, if you plant trees on coastal tiles, trees don't show up, but it costs me
22:34<Samu>wait a min, maybe my trees are invisible omg
22:35<Samu>yeah lol i'm stupid, i had invisible trees in transparency settings
22:36<kamnet>I do that ALL the time
22:38<Supercheese>there are lots of settings that can trip ya up like that
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22:53<Mr_Bones_>grrrrr. ok, how were the nml-0.4.0 binary packages built?
22:53<Mr_Bones_>I'm getting: /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/setuptools/ UserWarning: The version specified ('0.4.0.r5527:5fc25f88f4ca') is an invalid version,
22:55<Mr_Bones_>and then when trying to run nmlc, I get: ImportError: No module named 'nml' with a traceback
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: catenary is easy, you just add an x^2, x^4, x^6, etc. line together
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: or use the "cosh" function directly if it's available
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: the formula is 1/2!*x^2 + 1/4!*x^4 + 1/6!*x^6 + ...
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>where x! is x*(x-1)*...*3*2*1
23:01<supermop_>ok lets see
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>parabola is too pointy at the tip, it needs to get bulged out
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can also use "cos(i*x)" where i is the imaginary unit
23:03<supermop_>yeah there is a 'conic' tool, could i do each section of the catenary as a conic?
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound right
23:04<supermop_>better to just do a bunch of straight segments and use your formulae to do each one?
23:05<supermop_>the aim is to recreate the ogfx monorail roof
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>try to make a cubic spline, if you use intermediate points
23:07<Eddi|zuHause>i can only give you the math, you need to find the appropriate function of your program yourself
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>the catenary is called "cosinus hyperbolicus"
23:09<Supercheese>Ha, how very Latin
23:09<Supercheese>good old mathematicians
23:10<supermop_>i can do it with a nurbs curve, just need to manually set position of each point
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>you mean horny old mathematicians :p
23:11<supermop_>if i make the curve degree 3 it is cubic
23:11<supermop_>curve tool sets degree 3 by default so no problem there
23:12<Sylf>Mr_Bones_, did you copy nml directory to /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages?
23:12<Sylf>When I set up nml, I have to do that manually
23:12<Mr_Bones_>I'm using
23:12<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: yes. degree 3 is the point where humans (usually) can't spot jumps in curvature anymore
23:12<Sylf>me too.
23:13<Mr_Bones_>it ends up in /usr/lib64/python3.3/site-packages/nml-0.4.0.r5527_5fc25f88f4ca-py3.3.egg-info/
23:13<Sylf>After sudo python3 install, I sudo cp the nml directory
23:13<supermop_>glad to see sylf see curves much in the same way as humans
23:13<Sylf>no, it's separate from that egg info
23:14<Mr_Bones_>nml-0.4.0.r5527-3b43d37dec19.linux-x86_64.tar.gz doesn't have a nml directory
23:14<supermop_>might be a bit silly as im then going to cut the catenary up to make into rigid segments (panels)
23:14<Sylf>oh, I guess I don't grab the tarball
23:14<supermop_>but i want to figure out how to model the wide for other uses
23:14<Sylf>I grab the source from mercurial repository
23:14<supermop_>*wire not wide
23:14<supermop_>like bridges etc or fabric roofs
23:15<Mr_Bones_>oh, the 0.3.1 installs the nlm directory but the 0.4.0 one doesn't.
23:15<Eddi|zuHause>Mr_Bones_: i already said you need a checkout. the tarball doesn't work
23:15<Supercheese>Awesome, got everything working
23:15<Mr_Bones_>I assumed you meant the source tarball.
23:16<Mr_Bones_>So right now, all the tarballs for 0.4.0 are broken?
23:16<Sylf>if it doesn't have nml, then it's probably broken
23:16<Mr_Bones_>seems less than ideal.
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23:18<Mr_Bones_>oh... very different files between the two versions
23:19<Mr_Bones_>packages=['nml', 'nml.actions', 'nml.ast', 'nml.expression'], is missing in 0.4.0. seems like something....
23:22<Supercheese>Vintage Commuter now live in OGFX+ Airports
23:23<Samu>okay, this works
23:23<Samu>not perfect, but it's something
23:24<Samu>no assertion
23:24<Samu>yapf gets the best behaviour
23:25<supermop_>damn it, suspension bridges with heavy road decks form parabolae not catenaries
23:25<Mr_Bones_>yep... adding the packages line back to results in a working install.
23:25<supermop_>and susp. bridges with heavy cables fall between shape of parabola and catenary
23:25<Mr_Bones_>I know zero things about distutils so no idea if there are other side effects.
23:26<supermop_>if the roof panels are flush with the cables on this station should still be catenary though
23:30<Samu>oh i can improve the ugly behaviour of opf, not sure about npf
23:30<Samu>opf, just go north aka reverse = false
23:30<Samu>npf, i dunno yet
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23:36<Pikka>what about suspension bridges made out of toilet rolls and string?
23:38<Samu>damn, npf behaviour is really ugly
23:38<Samu>opf is actually better
23:38<Samu>it reverses midway in the water
23:38<Eddi|zuHause>Mr_Bones_: i'm sure people will appreciate a patch
23:39<Samu>i have to oppose the reverse for NPF when it actually decides it's better to reverse
23:44<kamnet>Supercheese, did you just now push ANOTHER update to OpenGFX+ Airports?
23:45<Samu>plz test this for me:
23:45<Samu>build a ship depot and put 2 docks at both exit
23:45<Samu>then have a ship starting
23:46<Samu>watch the different behaviours between the pathfinders
23:46<Samu>i can't figure out a better behaviour for npf
23:46<Samu>but that's my view on it
23:56<Eddi|zuHause>Mr_Bones_: i don't think any of the people interested are here at this moment :p
23:56<Eddi|zuHause>Mr_Bones_: post on the devzone
23:59<Supercheese>kamnet: Yes
23:59<Supercheese>post updates as well
23:59<Samu>i have to go sleep
---Logclosed Thu Apr 09 00:00:16 2015