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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-10

---Logopened Fri Apr 10 00:00:27 2015
00:06<TartarusMkII>damn okay, thanks.
00:15<kamnet>I'm going ekranoplan crazy tonight.
00:16<supermop>haha seems like it
00:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm going crazy at youtube tonight
00:24<Eddi|zuHause>it suddenly decided that the big player mode should have the same size as the small player mode
00:24<kamnet>Most of the ones I'm finding are basically light passenger and cargo transport, but I've found some real interesting ones too
00:24<Eddi|zuHause>unless i switch my browser to fullscreen (F11), which only marginally increases the size of the browser
00:25<kamnet>A pair of luxury "superyacht" ekranoplans coming in at a few million dollars each.
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00:25<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't understand the conditions on which it decides this size
00:25<kamnet>Weird, Eddi
00:29<TartarusMkII>When is a good time to start tackling the loan debt?
00:33<kamnet>I tend to do it when I've got a stable amount of income and I'm not building anything else.
00:34<TartarusMkII>Right now I have a very strong set up for moving coal to a power plant, but I don't want to invest in the shitty starting train, so I only bought a few, but reserved space to expand the railway.
00:35<TartarusMkII>Then I gave a city nearby a little train system to ferry passengers to a dock, then I made something similar along the coast but with busses, and I have one ferry moving people back and forth
00:35<TartarusMkII>right now I am experimenting with the idea of making things like the ferry wait for a full load
00:35<kamnet>Yeah, if you're still building and have thin profit margins, keep borrowing.
00:36<TartarusMkII>I would prefer to choose something far away ,but if I wanted to make steel for the sake of a factory, and an ore mine is nearby, is trucks just cheaper for carting stuff a short range? Or is rail still.. better(?)
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00:57<Eddi|zuHause>TartarusMkII: for short hauls i often use the cargo trams from HEQS
00:58<Eddi|zuHause>TartarusMkII: it might not be the most profitable way, but it is certainly more space efficient
00:59<TartarusMkII>Okay, thanks. Vanilla doesn't have trams, right? So like, vanilla then? X3
01:00<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played vanilla in like 10 years :p
01:00<TartarusMkII>haha I'm just starting out XD
01:00<TartarusMkII>I got trains truckies boaties and planes
01:05<Eddi|zuHause>road vehicles mostly shine in tight spaces like cities, it has less to do with distances
01:09<TartarusMkII>Okay cool
01:18<Eddi|zuHause>although the generally lower speed somewhat has a higher impact on longer distances. and the amortization of rail wagons has a higher impact on higher production levels
01:19<Eddi|zuHause>you only pay maintenance for the train engine, no matter how many wagons it has, while you pay maintenance for each truck
01:24<TartarusMkII>Ah very true
01:32<TartarusMkII>Ah, I'm having quite a problem. I am sending Iron Ore to a station as a transfer, but the Smeltery that is within range of the station is not picking up the iron for itself. should I make it not a transfer, and just drop it for the smeltery to make steel?
01:35<TartarusMkII>Yes, that's it, oka.
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01:45<TartarusMkII>What happens if I tell a train with 4 pieces to dock at a 1 slot (2 piece) station?
01:45<TartarusMkII>to unload?
01:51<kamnet>There are no trams in vanilla OpenTTD. yes you should unload (not transfer) for the local industry to pick up. And what will happen is that your train will unload slower and take a penalty.
01:52<TartarusMkII>Okay thanks!
01:53<TartarusMkII>I got lots of goods from this factory, but I don't know how to best send it to this town I've got my trains in because I could only fit one platform stations there, and don't want a whole new group of engines on that small track just to distribute goods =v
02:05<TartarusMkII>Now the station that delivers to the factory won't acquire the goods from the factory to put on the train sitting there waiting for them =v
02:07<TartarusMkII>oh nvm now it is.. hm.
02:24<Supercheese>stations do not begin receiving cargo until a train that wants it arrives at the station
02:24<Supercheese>by default at least, there is a setting that controls that
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02:35<supermop>tensile roofs are really not great at holding my interest
02:36<supermop>i guess there's a reason I've never cared about these things in real life
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02:41<TartarusMkII>Is there a menu function like the replace menu in vanilla that allows me to replace old vehicles? I don't mean automatically, but I wonder how I am supposed to do this other than ordering ones by hand to go to the depot to do it manually
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02:53<andythenorth>we’re being overwhelmed by falsehood
02:54<Supercheese>TartarusMkII: Yes, there is that option under "Manage Vehicles" the dropdown at the bottom of your vehicle listing
02:54<TartarusMkII>I see, undr manage list, replace, send to depot, and send for maintenance
02:55<Supercheese>Replace is what you want eh?
02:55<Supercheese>ooooh no wait
02:55<Supercheese>you wanted renew
02:55<TartarusMkII>Yes but that's automatic, I want to know if there is a menu option to manually replace that is one step further than ordering each truck to go to a depot
02:55<TartarusMkII>yes, renew.
02:55<Supercheese>that is under the Settings menu
02:56<Supercheese>open the big settings tree and search for "renew"
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02:57<TartarusMkII>thankyou again
02:58<Supercheese>most welcome :)
03:02<andythenorth>8 / 66 FIRS industries converted :P
03:02<andythenorth>only 58 to go
03:24<kamnet>overwhelmed by falsehoods, andy?
03:27<andythenorth>truth and veritas both left
03:27<andythenorth>one after the other
03:27<kamnet>I thought it was right?
03:28<kamnet>I've got stats on 32 ekranoplans. Somebody now needs to fix OpenTTD so we can properly use them. :-)
03:30<Supercheese>Veritas fugit?
03:30<Eddi|zuHause>veritas fuck it?
03:30<kamnet>That way somebody can spend $2 million on a 500 km/h Bentley Ares SuperYacht to take 500 of their closest friends to drive 20 tons worth of SUV on exclusive desert islands. :D
03:36<Supercheese>I wonder what sort of license is required to pilot an ekranoplan...
03:36<Supercheese>does the FAA regulate it? They aren't technically aircraft...
03:37<supermop>if its out on open ocean it doesnt need to be regulated?
03:38<Supercheese>well one must dock somewhere...
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose as long as they don't reach a certain height, they'll be classified as ships?
03:38<andythenorth>probably same as hovercraft
03:38<supermop>using paypal to send money to my fiance seems incredibly odd
03:38<Supercheese>they do seem to fall under maritime regulations
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there are rules for seaplanes that can be applied
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03:39<supermop>should i skip these suspended roof stations? i just cant imagine them turning out interesting enough
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: we really can't tell you what to do.
03:40<andythenorth>I can
03:40<supermop>precious few real tensile roof structures look anything but forgettably boring
03:40<andythenorth>what else are we hanging out here for?
03:40<supermop>i mean i only come on irc to receive my instructions from andy
03:40<andythenorth>or someone else
03:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: escaping the sad reality of our so-called "real" life
03:41<supermop>since he refuses to operate a newgrf themed numbers staton
03:41<andythenorth>this is the best escape we can find? o_O
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that the main classification of any hobby?
03:42<supermop>i think i'll shelve them
03:43<supermop>maybe do something with spaceframes instead
03:43<supermop>then maybe some sheds
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>hobby == the life you would lead if you didn't have to rely on a job to get food/shelter
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>there's a reason why the french word "travail" originated in a word meaning "torture" and the german word "Arbeit" originated in a word meaning "slavery"
03:46<Eddi|zuHause>the russian word "robota" has the same origin
03:46<Supercheese>same for Latin "Laboro" and "Labor"
03:46<Supercheese>which even has preserved its dual meaning into English cognates
03:46<supermop>funny that japanese took arbeit to become arubeito which is only a part time, generally menial job
03:47<V453000>why did I read mental job
03:48<andythenorth>what’s the German word for ‘vocation'?
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: maybe they saw that the germans work so much less than everybody else :)
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what does that mean?
03:49<Supercheese>Hmm, whoops, I seem to have triple posted in the OGFX+ airports thread
03:49<andythenorth>new word to andythenorth
03:49<andythenorth>oops bad paste
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, there's a link on the left that leads you to the german word
03:50<andythenorth>does it mean the same thing in German, or is it strictly the religious sense?
03:50<supermop>i always assumed that trabajo came from traho
03:50<andythenorth>in en-gb, vocation is now the common term for an enjoyable, rewarding profession or craft
03:51<supermop>so that spanish people assume a job involves dragging something around?
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, german "Berufung" [i'd translate it as "calling"] is mostly used in the religious sense, but can be used outside as well
03:52<Supercheese>Yes, "Vocatio" is Latin for "calling"
03:52<andythenorth>vocation is more usually solely positive in the UK now
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's closely related to german "Beruf", which is generally the job that you learned
03:53<andythenorth>whereas ‘calling’ can be something which isn’t rewarding, but to which duty and capability call you
03:53<andythenorth>vocation would be seen as more rewarding generally
03:53<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i didn't know that i just equated beruf with job and arbeit with work
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the version i heard that "travail" [or "trabajo", which is really the same] came from something called "tripole", which is a torture instrument
03:55<andythenorth>9 / 66 done :P
03:55*andythenorth kicking goals here
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: well, "Beruf" means the thing you learned, and "Arbeit" the thing you do. they are usually related, but not necessarily
03:56<supermop>also i obviously never got that far in my german learning despite spending so long at it
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03:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are probably always subtle differences in the meaning/context of words that cannot be appropriately translated
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04:09<supermop>eddi i'd say 'certainly' not probably
04:09<supermop>and differences even from one region to the next
04:11<Supercheese>It may also be nice to add this patch to OGFX+ Airports:
04:11<Supercheese>most of the time the fences clip with the long airship sprites
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04:21<Eddi|zuHause>clipping usually means wrong bounding boxes
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>either the bounding boxes are too small, or they overlap, so the game has no chance to determine correctly what should be in front of what
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>the way the game treats conflicting bounding boxes might not be optimal
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>but usually fixes in that area tend to make things worse in other places
04:26<Supercheese>the airships are decidedly too big for their bounding box britches
04:26<Supercheese>there's naught to be done about it really, they must be extra large to look good
04:27<Supercheese>but that patch is desirable for other reasons anyway, like integrating airports in with newobjects
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04:27<Supercheese>the motivation that patch author had was, "I often extend my airports with object tiles, as do many other people, but it looks funny with the fences in in between the "real" airport and the "fake" parts"
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04:27<Supercheese>which is a fair point
04:29<@planetmaker>Supercheese, yes. But can you make it a NewGRF parameter to switch it off?
04:29<Supercheese>sure, that was the first edition of the patch
04:29<Supercheese>guess combine both the autofences and the parameter to enable/disable autofencing
04:30<@planetmaker>good idea. Autofence, autofence except when station/object adjacent, always fence, no fences. Dunno. something like that
04:30<@planetmaker>though I think, that autofencing could get more intelligent with objects. There are many objects where fences still make sense
04:30<@planetmaker>but that might be a 2nd step :)
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04:30<andythenorth>autofence is neat
04:31<andythenorth>small things
04:31<andythenorth>btw, if we could autofence industry tiles, FIRS would lose quite a lot of nml code :P
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: well, "nothing to be done" isn't entirely true. the game could be changed to allow increasing the size of the bounding box
04:31<andythenorth>might even stop hitting the register limits :P
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: although bigger bounding box makes it more likely to fall into the second case of problems
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04:33<@planetmaker>Supercheese, that the patch went without much comment from me just shows that it needs people like you who contribute / take over :) I'm quite happy about that, seeing there's still lots of potential
04:34<@planetmaker>for you to think about, if you want: one can also query the grfid which provides an object tile. As such fencing could be more selective as to which grf provides the objects
04:34<Supercheese>well, there are quite a lot of object grfs...
04:35<@planetmaker>but as said: that's definitely not for the first version of it. But... yeah, nice detail (which never will work correctly in all cases :P)
04:35<@planetmaker>Supercheese, yeah. But maybe only for airport objects (those which explicitly are?)
04:35<@planetmaker>or not for those which explicitly aren't?
04:36<@planetmaker>of course one cannot cater for all newgrfs :)
04:37<@planetmaker>anyway. This thinking should not stop this patch imho. It's only 2nd step, not 1st :)
04:37<Supercheese>I'll implement the autofencing later, now I need to commit the separating of the new airports out into their own entries
04:40<Supercheese>they have their own set of introduction/withdrawal dates too, I tried to match withdrawal of the vintage ports to introduction of their modern replacements
04:41<@planetmaker>ok. There certainly could be some overlap
04:42<@planetmaker>but that's cosmetics and personal preference :)
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04:42<Supercheese>yeah, I always tend to disable as many restrictions as possible in my games for maximum sandbox
04:44<andythenorth>some of these industry conversions are ridiculously easy
04:44<Supercheese>and others are exactly the opposite?
04:44<andythenorth>clearly the hard cases are hiding somewhere
04:44<andythenorth>probably end up removing around 10k lines of code
04:47*andythenorth wonders if there’s any harm in always setting INDTILE_FLAG_RANDOM_ANIMATION
04:47<andythenorth>even if random bits aren’t used
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04:51<@planetmaker>Supercheese, you build your NewGRFs on windows?
04:51<@planetmaker>how do you compile them?
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05:54<kamnet>OK I think I'm done with ekranoplans. 42 of them in various states of stats.
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07:29<@planetmaker>hm, that sounds nearly wrong... 40 seconds to build complete OpenGFX
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10:29*andythenorth is puzzled
10:29<andythenorth>if the anim_control cb is not handled, what use are the animation triggers?
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10:30<andythenorth>found a bunch of FIRS industries with animation_triggers set
10:30<andythenorth>but no anim_control handler
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10:39*andythenorth deletes things to see what happens
10:40<@Alberth>it makes space at the hard disk :p
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10:43<andythenorth>it does
10:43<andythenorth>86 bytes of space
10:44<@Alberth>probably you got an entire disk block even
10:44<andythenorth>I’ll do it some more
10:58*andythenorth wonders if there’s some spriteset magic
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10:59<andythenorth>the FIRS spritesets and spritelayouts are quite terrifying in scope
11:05<andythenorth>ha ha
11:05<andythenorth>more FIRS lies about secondary production :D
11:06<andythenorth>I might connect the production amounts up to the industry window text :P
11:06<andythenorth>then the lies would be found
11:14<@Alberth>sounds useful :)
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11:28<argoneus>a lot of devs seem to be around
11:28<argoneus>I have a question
11:28<argoneus>how do you guys hot reload scripts, newgrfs etc without restarting the game?
11:35<@planetmaker>argoneus, no. Unless I exactly know what changed in the NewGRF up to the level of the internal IDs and callbacks
11:35<@planetmaker>or if I don't care about the savegame (thus for testing)
11:35<argoneus>so all the scripts etc are loaded when a scenario is started
11:35<argoneus>not when the game is started
11:36<argoneus>that makes sense :<
11:36<@planetmaker>they're integral part of the map and give the map bits their meaning. Yes. Changing that, ... leads to strange results
11:36<argoneus>back onto my quest how to hot reload things then
11:37<@Alberth>you really don't
11:38<@Alberth>it's not simply unloadable in general, it becomes fully integrated with everything else, no way to get it out cleanly
11:38<@planetmaker>you need to learn about console commands
11:38<@planetmaker>and the developer settings, if you want to mess with it
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11:41<argoneus>I mean in general, not in ottd
11:41<argoneus>I just thought you guys did it
11:42<argoneus>I'm trying to write a plugin system in C
11:42<argoneus>that lets me (re)load functions without halting the program
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11:53<@planetmaker>oddink :)
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12:01<frosch123>argoneus: the tricky part is to get rid of all (pointer) references to the old version
12:01*andythenorth wonders what this does
12:01<andythenorth>#define THIS_STR_EXTRA_TEXT_PARAM0 ((8<<16) | 8)
12:01<argoneus>frosch123: how did you see what I wrote
12:01<argoneus>you weren't even here
12:02<andythenorth>he’s magical
12:02<argoneus>is this being logged
12:02<frosch123>with interpreted stuff it is somwhat easier, than with dynamically loaded libs
12:02<frosch123>yes, this is logged, i thought the topic says so, but apparently there was no space
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12:04<frosch123>it only says in .dev
12:05-!-mode/#openttd [+o frosch123] by DorpsGek
12:05-!-frosch123 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.5.0 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | for dev-talk
12:05-!-mode/#openttd [-o frosch123] by DorpsGek
12:06<andythenorth>so the ifdef
12:06*andythenorth didn’t write this code, and wonders if it’s needed
12:06<andythenorth>only used by 2 industries; one of those is simply cargo-culted, the other I see no reason to do this
12:07<frosch123>do the descriptions contain any dynamic numbers?
12:08<andythenorth>they shouldn’t
12:08<andythenorth>unless in debug mode, which is handled by the switch above
12:08*andythenorth checks lang
12:08<frosch123>well, any defines of THIS_STR_EXTRA_TEXT_PARAM0 should tell you :p
12:09<andythenorth>it’s only defined twice
12:09<andythenorth>I think it’s legacy
12:09<andythenorth>possibly the result of the automated conversion from nfo
12:10*andythenorth is cleaning up a rewrite of rewrite of an automated conversion of a rewrite of a ‘my first CPP’ codebase
12:10<andythenorth>like all the best software
12:12<frosch123>andythenorth: it's used for "To double production deliver {SIGNED_WORD} crates supplies within three months (or {SIGNED_WORD} crates for quadruple production" isn't it?
12:13<andythenorth>that’s primary industries
12:13<andythenorth>this is secondary
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12:15*andythenorth deletes it
12:16<@Alberth>moar free bytes!
12:20<andythenorth>maybe as many as 64
12:22<andythenorth>so with primed caches, FIRS now compiles in 1m15s or so
12:22<andythenorth>which is impressive
12:22<andythenorth>how can it be faster? o_O
12:27<@Alberth>it's a sunny friday
12:29<frosch123>what are you frying?
12:30<kamnet>It could be faster if you just stripped out all the unnecessary industries like farming and engineering supplies. :P
12:31<kamnet>@frosch123 Just down the street from me is a drive-thru restaurant named Fish Frydays.
12:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth, opengfx compiles in 40s ;)
12:33<andythenorth>that’s faster than ~hours
12:33<andythenorth>what did you do?
12:33<@planetmaker>not sure. Nothing really.
12:34<kamnet>Drats. I was hoping Supercheese had a new version of OpenGFX+ Airports up already
12:34<frosch123>planetmaker: i want to look into the nml packaing/installation tomorrow
12:34<frosch123>anyone else has started something that is not linked in the ticket?
12:35<frosch123>kamnet: <- not new enough?
12:35<frosch123>only 10 hours old
12:37<kamnet>I wasn't aware of push/. It's not linked to from the dev page
12:37<kamnet>just release and nightly
12:37<kamnet>So, for that, sir, I thank you very much! :D
12:38<frosch123>paths generally change faster than you can update documentation
12:38<frosch123>so better skip the documentation in the first place :p
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: [09.04.2015 05:40] <Mr_Bones_>
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: he said after this change, nml built for him
12:41<frosch123>the oberhuemer patch looks more fancy that that
12:42<frosch123>but i see that pm added something today :)
12:43<kamnet>Bummer. I was hoping Seaplane Port was now in. :_(
12:49<@planetmaker>frosch123, I committed the patch by oberhumer today. And the versioning might be solved like or similar to how I attached it there
12:50<@planetmaker>but I'm not 100% sure that solves everything
12:50<@planetmaker>however I could use the NML contained in the source bundle
12:50<frosch123>ok, i will try to install the source bundle on some vm or chroot or so
12:51<@planetmaker>didn't do that. But explicitly referenced the nmlc. So yeah, more thorough testing needed
12:51<@planetmaker>as to the versioning, it needs some thought. Or more thorough updates after releases and we keep the setting of the next_release_version in
12:52<kamnet>Perhaps a silly question, but how far fetched would it be to develop a ShipType spec? :D
12:53<frosch123>we have liveries
12:53<frosch123>they suck or so :p
12:53<andythenorth>we discussed that once
12:53<frosch123>we also have river/sea ships, but the gui sucks
12:53<andythenorth>there was a new spec and such, but it was not solving anything iirc
12:53<andythenorth>river/sea ships sucks anyway
12:54<frosch123>so, yeah, we have some have-baked things. but the gui is so obscure that no player understands is, and newgrf give up using it :p
12:54<andythenorth>I use it for one ship in Squid
12:54<andythenorth>but Dan is drawing an awesome new sprite that will kill that ship
12:55<andythenorth>actually, I do cripple the bigger ships on rivers/canals
12:55<andythenorth>but pure river ships make no sense for gameplay
12:55<kamnet>Why not?
12:55<andythenorth>why would you use them?
12:56<andythenorth>you don’t use ships unless you need to traverse at least some sea
12:56<andythenorth>‘nobody’ builds pure river routes
12:56<andythenorth>it makes no sense, RVs and trains are always better
12:57<andythenorth>and if the ship is crippled on sea, you won’t choose it
12:57<kamnet>Except if you're playing before 1820.
12:57<andythenorth>edge case
12:57<andythenorth>but yeah
12:57<andythenorth>I don’t support playing before 1860 or so
12:57<andythenorth>it distorts the game in weird directions
12:57<andythenorth>the game is best played for 100 years or so in the 20th century
12:58<andythenorth>Chris Sawyer had it about right, he just picked the wrong start date, so he could include futuristic trains
12:58<kamnet>It's only best because that's what it has been clasically focused on.
12:58<kamnet>And some of us are just weirdos.
12:59<kamnet>New scenario I'm developing is going to be heavy on rivers that provide players with well-connected routes to start.
12:59<kamnet>Probably starting at 1850, thought about dropping back to 1800 as well.
13:01<andythenorth>you’ll pre-place all the industry?
13:01<kamnet>Yep. But just primary industry. If player needs a secondary industry, they have to fund it themselves. They'll have to make some hard choices.
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13:04<kamnet>I'll place plenty of primary industry (probably more than necessary). I may put a very scant few secondary industry in just to make it not crippling to play.
13:04<kamnet>I'll pre-build some really really crappy winding and sometimes not entirely connected roads and extremely low-speed bridges.
13:05<andythenorth>horse grf?
13:05<kamnet>And lots of rivers, from sea level on up, with height level set to 60.
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13:06<kamnet>Yep, eGRVTS for the horses and early trams. If foobar ever gets time to come back and finish it, 2cc Trams as well. Or if Road Hog gets usable before then, I'll chuck that int oo. :D
13:06<andythenorth>Hog has no horses yet
13:06<andythenorth>Dan will twist my arm though :)
13:07<kamnet>No, but I like the trams.
13:07<andythenorth>Hog will be beta ‘soon'
13:07<kamnet>especially the cargo trams. Funny, speaking of twisting arms, that's what I had to do with Voyager One to get cargo trams drawn, and then like a week later you're putting them in Road hog
13:08<andythenorth>cargo trams ftw
13:08<kamnet>I also tried to get earlier horses, but Voyager and Foobar both balked. Oh well.
13:08<andythenorth>I am not a big fan of horses
13:08<andythenorth>but that might be because they were broken in eGRVTs for so long
13:08<kamnet>I can see tht
13:09*andythenorth will give the horses a second chance
13:09<kamnet>and they're messy to draw and lay out
13:09<kamnet>and they can only go so fast. 10-12 mph.
13:09<andythenorth>the speed will have to be cheated
13:09<kamnet>they only get more powerful if you add more horses.
13:09<andythenorth>same as other things
13:09<andythenorth>bulldozers only go 4mph, except in HEQS
13:10<andythenorth>trucks in the UK are 40t gross weight, not 40t cargo - except in Road Hog
13:10<kamnet>I think 12 mph is plenty fast for horses. They'll be faster than any mechanical engine or even the first electric trams for about 15 years.
13:11<kamnet>And then they'll fall right off the face of the earth. :D
13:13<andythenorth>I say this rarely, but might be valid for a parameter in Road Hog
13:13<andythenorth>specific to ‘slower’ vehicles
13:19*andythenorth has ideas
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13:29<andythenorth>cluster processing industries near their primary supply sources
13:29<andythenorth>rather than away from them, as now :P
13:29<andythenorth>probably boring
13:30<@Alberth>find two such clusters, and bring cargo back and forth
13:30<andythenorth>even better
13:30<andythenorth>nice hax
13:31<andythenorth>17 of 66 FIRS industries converted :|
13:31<andythenorth>or \o/
13:31<andythenorth>can’t decide
13:31<@Alberth>@calc 17/66
13:31<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0.257575757576
13:31<andythenorth>I was aiming for 25%
13:31<@Alberth>oh 1/4 already
13:31<andythenorth>I am deliberately only doing the easy ones
13:31<andythenorth>most fit the standard template well
13:32<@Alberth>and delete the remaining ones :)
13:32<andythenorth>but of course, there are one or two that just have ‘something extra'
13:32<andythenorth> :P
13:32*andythenorth considers hard-coding long strings of nml and dumping it in for the ‘special’ stuff
13:33<andythenorth><tal:I_am_ashamed_of_all_my_wrongs replace=“industry.get_all_my_wrongs()” />
13:33<andythenorth>a good templating language is a moral template language
13:34<andythenorth>i.e. it allows the author to make their own moral choices
13:34<frosch123>the funny thing about firs having 66 industries is that full firs is no longer full firs :p
13:35<andythenorth>and it’s a stupid name anyway
13:35<andythenorth>Full-Fat FIRS
13:35<andythenorth>FIRS 2 can change that name
13:35<andythenorth>FIRS 2 will change a few things
13:43<andythenorth>the python templating step is much slower under python 3
13:43<andythenorth>not unexpected
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13:54<kamnet>FIRS Complex Industries?
13:54<kamnet>(as opposed to Basic)
13:55<andythenorth>I suggested some names previously
13:55<andythenorth>but not ones that are family friendly
13:56<@Alberth>Retemplated industries :p
13:57<kamnet>FIRS: All c*cked up!
13:59<andythenorth>FIRS: now it’s just like YETI
14:00<andythenorth>18 done
14:00<andythenorth>only 3 simple ones left
14:00<andythenorth>then I have to use thinking
14:00*andythenorth does not have much thinking to spare
14:01<andythenorth>Alberth I used a deque the other day, I feel all grown up :P
14:02-!-DanMacK [] has joined #openttd
14:02<DanMacK>Hey hey
14:02<andythenorth>hello DanMacK
14:03-!-FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
14:17<kamnet>Hello Dan!
14:22<kamnet>Boy, Quast65 is getting crazy awesome with this airport objects.
14:29-!-JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
14:29<@Alberth>going a bit overboard :)
14:33<TrueBrain>@seen DanMacK
14:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 31 minutes and 0 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey hey
14:33<TrueBrain>@seen andthenorth
14:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I have not seen andthenorth.
14:33<TrueBrain>@seen andythenorth
14:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 30 minutes and 48 seconds ago: <andythenorth> hello DanMacK
14:33<TrueBrain>IT HAS HAPPENED
14:33<TrueBrain>*freeze time*
14:35-!-liq3 [] has quit []
14:37<kamnet>Could be a sock puppet, TrueBrain
14:37<andythenorth>andythenorth is not real
14:37<andythenorth>just a bot
14:38*andythenorth ponders
14:39<TrueBrain>that does give you something to ponder about
14:42<andythenorth>oh my god I’m just an automaton!
14:42<andythenorth>probably some kind of biological replicant
14:48-!-Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:50<andythenorth>maybe I could be cloned
14:53-!-tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
14:53<andythenorth>the clones can do the hard work
14:53<andythenorth>andythenorth will take it easy
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14:55<frosch123>ah, i see, you mean increasing to 9 clones, and put the other 6 into 2 groups
14:57*andythenorth is stupid
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14:59<andythenorth>at *most* FIRS secondary industries, delivering all of the 2 or 3 required cargos in combination rewards players with increased output
15:00<andythenorth>but for brewery and textile mill, the combinations have to be specific
15:00<kamnet>Do Andydroids dream of electric sheep
15:00<andythenorth>which makes my code ugly
15:00<andythenorth>all / any ^^^
15:01<kamnet>Why do they have to be specific?
15:03<andythenorth>if you deliver MNSP + grain, you get a boost
15:03<andythenorth>if you deliver MNSP + fruit, you get a boost
15:03<andythenorth>if you deliver grain + fruit, no boost
15:03<andythenorth>seemed like a good idea at the time
15:03<andythenorth>now, I’m not so sure :P
15:04<kamnet>Seems a bit odd to me, too
15:04<kamnet>Well, no it doesn't
15:06<kamnet>I don't see where the brewery gets any type of enhanced production by having two types of foods to brew. It just gets more stuff to brew
15:06<andythenorth>it’s wholly logical currently
15:06<andythenorth>but meh
15:06<kamnet>MNSP in theory gives the brewery new ways to do it
15:06<andythenorth>the logic is over-rated
15:06<andythenorth>can’t make steel from iron ore + scrap alone
15:06<andythenorth>still need coal
15:07<andythenorth>but the steel mill still provides a boost for iron ore + scrap
15:07<andythenorth>because otherwise boring
15:07<kamnet>Maybe it shouldn't?
15:07<andythenorth>nah, it’s better to be rewarding
15:08<kamnet>So pick that path andd be consistent. grain+fruit=boost.
15:08<andythenorth>apple brandy
15:08<andythenorth>oh brandy is wine
15:08<kamnet>Then again, I'm a teetotaler.
15:08*andythenorth learns something every day
15:09<andythenorth>I can fix this in code, it will just be ugly code
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15:19<andythenorth>stuff like this is usually the sign of a bad design
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15:52<FedeWolfie>hey guys, need help
15:52<FedeWolfie>I've got an air port
15:52<FedeWolfie>There are two planes in there
15:53<FedeWolfie>The first works well, carried passengers leave the airport and I get paid for the transport
15:54<FedeWolfie>The second one carries both passengers and goods but all of them kind of stay in airport blocked and I won't get paid or anything
15:54<FedeWolfie>Please help me
15:54<frosch123>what does the statusbar of the aircraft say, if you open its window?
15:54<frosch123>there are no aircraft carrying both passenger and goods btw
15:54<frosch123>only passenger+mail
15:55<FedeWolfie>I mean passenger+ mail
15:55<FedeWolfie>Anyway it normally follows the given path but all of its content remains in airport
15:56<frosch123>so, does the aircraft not load? or does it not unload?
15:56<frosch123>or does it not leave after finishing loading?
15:57<FedeWolfie>It does unload normally, but all of its content doesn't "leave" the airport
15:57<frosch123>what do its orders say?
15:57<frosch123>did you set "transfer" or something?
15:58<FedeWolfie>>Reach airport 1 and load > reach airport 2 and unload
15:58<frosch123>so you set it specically to "unload" instead of "unload if accepted"?
15:59<frosch123>does the airport window say it accepts the cargo?
15:59<FedeWolfie>Yeah it does, in fact it accepts the passengers from the first plane
16:00<FedeWolfie>no didnt set specifically
16:01<frosch123>no idea then
16:02<Marty>are you using normal openttd or any newgrfs?
16:03<FedeWolfie>stable 1.5.0, multiplayer
16:04<Marty>are the planes identical or have you refiited one of them?
16:04<frosch123>is cargodist enabled?
16:05<FedeWolfie>The planes are different
16:05*andythenorth adds jank for this bad design choice
16:05<FedeWolfie>No cargodist
16:05<andythenorth>the irony is that the current code actually has bugs in it anyway
16:05<andythenorth>the boost amounts are wrong :P
16:05<Supercheese>planetmaker: Delayed overnight response, but yes I build my grfs on windows using gcc from MinGW and the win32 compiled nmlc.exe
16:05<@Alberth>aircraft window shows it has pax loaded?
16:06<@Alberth>passengers (and mail)
16:06<FedeWolfie>yeah sure
16:06<@Alberth>picture of savegame would be useful, I think
16:06<frosch123>how do you actually know that they stay on the airport?
16:06<frosch123>does the airport not supply pax on its own?
16:06<Marty>hmm maybe check if airport accepts passengers again
16:07<FedeWolfie>If I click on the airport the storage tells me that there are 1700 passengers and 1600 mails
16:07<FedeWolfie>Gonna upload a snap soon
16:08<Marty>after snap, try save game, close ttd and reload game
16:08<frosch123>Marty: this is not windows :p
16:09<frosch123>esp. not in multiplayer
16:09<Marty>I know.... but I never seen that bug
16:09<@Alberth>it's most likely not a bug
16:09<Marty>And want to know if it persistent in case of some corruption
16:10<frosch123>Marty: he would have gotten kicked from the game due to desync for long
16:11<Marty>likely yes, I remember having a similar bug but that was almost 10 years ago
16:11<Marty>never seen it since
16:11<@Alberth>hmm, did openttd exist then?
16:12<FedeWolfie>Yeah, it was made in 2004
16:12<Marty>ofc, openttd is quite old actually
16:12<frosch123>Alberth: we head 10th birthday last year :p
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16:12<FedeWolfie>I uploaded, let me know
16:12<frosch123>Alberth: we are past the tipping point
16:12<@Alberth>hmm, good point :p
16:13<frosch123>ottd is older than ttd was when ottd started
16:14<@Alberth>both seem to be flying (or were flying)?
16:14<Marty>The save game works fine at my pc
16:15<@Alberth>that airport is empty
16:15<Marty>doh wrong plane
16:15<FedeWolfie>Does the second plane get money with unload?
16:15<Marty>The orders of aircraft2 is go to tarham woods
16:15<Marty>It does not accept people
16:16<FedeWolfie>In tartham woods it should load mails and passengers and then it should unload in kinfingley
16:17<FedeWolfie>As I've seen it does unload but no money
16:17<@Alberth>tarhan has no pax
16:17<Marty>if there are no people supplied to the airport then no money
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16:17<@Alberth>it's out of reach for pax to go to the airport
16:18<Marty>yeah, but he left Alberth
16:18<Marty>so was just a rookie mistake
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16:18<@Alberth>usually the case
16:18<FedeWolfie>Oh it disconnected sorry
16:18<@Alberth>(22:17:52) Alberth: it's out of reach for pax to go to the airport
16:19<FedeWolfie>so? what should I do?
16:19<Marty>sell plane or fly else where
16:19<@Alberth>build it closer to the town, until the airport build window says "accepts passenghers (and mail)
16:19<@Alberth>^ tarham that is
16:20<FedeWolfie>It does yet
16:20<FedeWolfie>The first plane still works
16:20<Marty>first plane does not fly to tarham
16:22<FedeWolfie>the first flies to another place
16:22<@Alberth>click the airport, then then the little aircraft near the bottom of the window
16:23<FedeWolfie>but it carries passengers and unloads them successfully
16:23<@Alberth>yes, its destination is close enough to houses
16:23<Marty>Tarham airport does not accept pax, so no one want to go there
16:23<@Alberth>tarham accepts pax from the aircraft, but not the other way around
16:24<@Alberth>both areas are different
16:25<FedeWolfie>aww finally, thanks :D
16:27<@Alberth>notice how the build window says "passengers" with supplies, but not accepts
16:27<FedeWolfie>I read accepts, I'm an idiot :v
16:28<FedeWolfie>Thank you for your time C:
16:28<@Alberth>it's quite ambiguous :)
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16:40<andythenorth>making sugarcane / sugar beet climate-dependent was such a dumb move :)
16:40-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:40<andythenorth>FIRS code has to jump hoops for this one small thing
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16:44<Supercheese>Feel free to consolidate them
16:45<Supercheese>I highly doubt anyone would complain
16:48<andythenorth>maybe in V2 :P
16:48<andythenorth>it was all my fault anyway
16:49<andythenorth>sugarcane and sugar beet are quite different cargos
16:52*andythenorth will fix that in V2
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17:00<V453000>FIRS dying to version 2? :D awesome
17:04<andythenorth>V453000: going to kill some stuff :P
17:05<andythenorth>also bloody farms will get, at least changed, if not fixed
17:05<andythenorth>also V453000 how about rendering some *realistic* ships that look good at 1x zoom? o_O
17:05<frosch123>did Supercheese send you his savegame?
17:05<andythenorth>challenge yourself with actual pixel style realism :P
17:05<frosch123>with all industries on map getting supplies
17:06*andythenorth hates drawing ships
17:06<V453000>maybe eventually when I get to ships in RAWR
17:06<V453000>which isnt anytime soon :P
17:06<andythenorth>nobody managed to supply all FIRS industries ever
17:06*andythenorth disbelieves it
17:06<frosch123>i somehow doubt V would draw ships
17:06<frosch123>rather ducks
17:06<frosch123>or godzillas
17:07<V453000>it will happen :)
17:07<V453000>sooner or later
17:09*andythenorth pins his hopes on pikka
17:10<andythenorth>otherwise me and Dan will actually have to draw them
17:10<andythenorth>with pixels
17:10<andythenorth>by hand
17:11<andythenorth>also bed time
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17:13<Supercheese>oh blast
17:13<Supercheese>I was too late
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17:17<kamnet>I'm certain they're one in the same now.
17:18<frosch123>no, dates sometimes leave together
17:19<kamnet>There you go.
17:19<kamnet>Y'know, just when I say I'm done researching ground effect vehicles, I keep finding something else to add.
17:25<Supercheese>well, you're stuck until the ship movement handler is updated
17:25<Supercheese>no ship can exceed ~79 mph
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17:39<Supercheese>Ha, the German for hovercraft is amazing
17:39<Supercheese>I love German
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18:07<frosch123>Supercheese: i like "perpendicular" as english word, though it is kind of latin
18:07<Supercheese>perpendicular is a perfectly "normal" word ;)
18:08<Supercheese>Math pun ho
18:16<kamnet>Supercheese: Even if it doesn't get done, they'll still be fun to have.
18:18<kamnet>*ponders* Should I go ahead and start throwing in costs on these
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18:38<@planetmaker>frosch123, did packaging work for NML for you?
18:38<frosch123>didn't try yet :)
18:38<kamnet>Good evening, supermop
18:39<frosch123>today is starcraft evening :)
18:41<@planetmaker>ho :)
18:51<supermop>i cant figure out how best to represent a certain type of stonework because i nver learned what it is called
18:52<supermop>where the stones have a rough split face in the center, but then a very fine clean chiseled edge where the fit together
18:53<@planetmaker>mason :)
18:56<supermop>hmm we use masonary to refer any type of stacked block construction fancy or otherwise
18:56<supermop>bricks and concrete included
18:56<supermop>even haybales!
18:58<frosch123> <- something like that?
18:58<supermop>the type im thinking of is similar to ashlar but fancier
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19:00<frosch123>supermop: the german term is "Bossenstein"
19:00<frosch123>but wiki has no link to an english page
19:02<supermop>hmm not quite, similar but with a 50mm or so smooth border around the edge of the stone
19:02<supermop>very 1830s-1870s french in style i think
19:02<frosch123>yes, i know what you mean
19:03<@planetmaker>he... I didn't know that word, even in German, frosch123 :)
19:03<@planetmaker>and why is there another nick coming first in completion with fr...
19:04<frosch123>supermop: still the same name
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19:05<Samu>i just had an idea that could help nerf aircraft high income
19:05<Samu>reduced acceleration
19:05<Samu>while aging
19:06<Samu>the older it gets, the slower it accelerates
19:06<supermop>i never learned whatever the english term would be, but based on the era in which the style was used in the anglosphere i bet it would be the french term
19:07<supermop>hmm or 'bossage'
19:08<frosch123> <- many pictures
19:08<frosch123>there are bossage and rustication
19:08<@planetmaker>Samu, and how do you justify that?
19:08<@planetmaker>also, just make that as NewGRF. Thus: can already be done
19:09<Samu>i was looking at each design and their lifetime
19:10<supermop>can't find any bump maps under german or english term though
19:10<supermop>so may need to make my own
19:10<Samu>am also doing some kind of reseach on them
19:12<Samu>using a lifetime income patch that was posted on the forum, it's interesting to see that a minor difference in reliability has a great impact on it
19:12<@planetmaker>anyway... I don't see any chance for such kind of patch
19:12<Samu>maybe a mix of reduced acceleration based on age and reliability
19:14<Samu>still have to finish this research, but it's interesting to see breakdowns doing major lifetime income so far
19:14<supermop>i think i will try to find good split stone bump map, create a 3d surface from that, then trim the 3d surface with clean edge surfaces, array into to brick pattern, render hear on, and export zbuffer from rendering to create new bumpmap
19:15<Samu>can sometimes be a difference of £1.000.000
19:15<Samu>for the same model
19:17<Samu>there was an interesting result, let me find it
19:20<Samu>Darwin 500 vs Guru Galaxy, they have nearly the same capacity
19:20<Samu>78% reliability vs 76% reliability
19:20<Samu>25 years old vs 20 years old
19:21<Samu>£2,209,398 vs £1,568,114
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19:23<Samu>damn, i'm confusing myself
19:23<Samu>i remember they had the same age, almost the same capacity but very different reliablity
19:27<Samu>why the hell didn't i take note of my results :(
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19:32<Samu>found one interesting comparison
19:33<Samu>FFP Dart vs Bakewell Luckett LB-9
19:33<Samu>90pass/10mail vs 100pass/15mail
19:33<Samu>very different duration on both
19:34<Samu>18 years vs 26 years
19:34<Samu>now before telling their reliablity, here's their lifetime profit:
19:35<Samu>£1.020.153 vs £1.083,969
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19:35<Samu>95% vs 80%
19:35<Samu>breakdowns as normal
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19:38<Samu>nearly the same lifetime profit, but that 18 years vs 26 years, it's interesting to see how much 15% max reliablity difference can make
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20:04<Samu>hmm, i was thinking
20:05<Samu>instead of a global game setting for running costs
20:05<Samu>separate it into 4
20:05<Samu>1 for each vehicle type
20:06<Samu>transport type*
20:08<Samu>i dunno, just thinking of a feasible idea to make the default aircraft not this good
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20:21<Supercheese>"default aircraft"
20:21<Supercheese>there's yer problem
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21:01<Supercheese>Huh, that's odd, when you load a game in English and change in-game to Latin, there are some grammatical case issues with strings provided by newgrfs. But when you load the game originally in Latin, there are no issues
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21:16<kamnet>Oh, good. Nobody was talking to me anyhow. :D
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21:48<Mr_Bones_>what's the minimum allowed version of opengfx with openttd-1.5.0? I have this bug report: but I think the warnings can safely be ignored and 0.5.2 isn't a requirement.
21:56<LordAro>Mr_Bones_: it's indeed not a requirement, but i'd recommend it
21:56<LordAro>some graphics get displayed as '?' otherwise
21:56<LordAro>but other than that and an error message on startup, it's fine
21:56<Mr_Bones_>well, opengfx's rc has been out for a month so ship it. ;-)
21:57<LordAro>not my problem :p
21:57<LordAro>nor could i ship it, even if i wanted to :p
21:58<ST2>well, a simple "Check online content" click and update to OpenGFX there solves it
21:58<ST2>we had many players complaining the same
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22:01<supermop>my bump map is not nearly bumpy enough
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22:02<Supercheese>who put the bump map in the bump bump map map
22:03<supermop>not me apparently
22:05<Supercheese>Hmm, I had never heard of the language until the recent pikkarail post
22:10<Pikka>it's quite nice. I discovered it at uni this year, it's used by a lot of artists
22:11<Pikka>and then it turned out my father has multiple books on it from when he was doing fine arts at uni a few years back :)
22:13<Supercheese>I'm surprised how compact the code examples are in relation to their graphical outputs
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23:11<TartarusMkII>Hi guys, I have a question. Trains drop (not transfer) iron ore to a station that (among some other things) has a steel mill attached to it, but sometimes the steel mill says it has 0 production the prior month, and there's a lot of iron ore piling up in the station.
23:11<TartarusMkII>Is it possible the steel mill just can't use it all? Or what might be happening?
23:14<ST2>well, if the Iron ore getting on the station, means you having an unload order there and the station not close enough to industry to be accepted, I think ^^
23:15<TartarusMkII>Does the entire station trade in these items, or only certain platforms? The station itself sprawls a bit with some other platforms of train station to reach other industries to include them
23:15<TartarusMkII>does that not work as I thought?
23:28<ChrisM>If the station says it accepts iron ore, that seems odd
23:30<TartarusMkII>Yea, I restarted my game anyway just to play the early game some more.
23:31<TartarusMkII>I am curious, if I build a small train station on the outer edge of a city, then attach a bus station to that station located in the core, does that give the train station the ability to make use of the population of all the area that bus stop adds?
23:31<Sylf>post a sav file
23:32<TartarusMkII>I mean, I could but I feel like it's too silly to warrant asking any of you to take the time to load it up ^^;
23:32<TartarusMkII>I appreciate it though. I'll keep in mind I can post the sav files if something /really/ goes wrong. lol
23:32<ChrisM>If I understood your question about the bus, I think the answer is yes
23:32<ChrisM>It extends the range of the station
23:33<Sylf>for something like the iron ore station, the sav file would tell us more what's exactly going on
23:33<TartarusMkII>okay awesome.Game gets a lot easier that way, I'd even say that could be overpowered some.
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23:33<Sylf>is it the order issue, is it the station acceptance issue, is it the newgrf issue...
23:33<TartarusMkII>Sylf: I appreciate it; if it happens again I'll make note of it and make the sav file for us to look at.
23:34<TartarusMkII>Also, I am wondering, what makes a local authority hate me? I built up a lumber industry outside a city to start building it up, but they ended up barring me from continuing. But I wonder why?
23:37<Sylf>you destroy the trees around the city, and they'll grow feelings against you more and more
23:37<Sylf>bombing the trees, laying rails, stations, roads etc, they all count against authority ratings
23:38<TartarusMkII>oh huh okay, that's interesting
23:38<TartarusMkII>I forgot I could plant trees to make them happy
23:38<TartarusMkII>Thankyou Sylf.
23:38<TartarusMkII>I read that cities grow faster, but there are no towns in my game that have "city" in the name. Is that an attribute they gain over time, or something?
23:39<Sylf>you'll need to open each town detail window
23:39<Sylf>They'll have (City) notation after the town/city name in that window title
23:39<Sylf>so you have to check them one by one
23:40<Sylf>no matter how small, they can be a city
23:40<Sylf>and no matter how huge, they can be non-city
23:40<Sylf>and they don't "become" a city no matter what
23:45<TartarusMkII>Oh okay let's see.
23:45<TartarusMkII>Oh okay gotcha. Thanks!
---Logclosed Sat Apr 11 00:00:28 2015