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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-11

---Logopened Sat Apr 11 00:00:28 2015
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00:16<supermop>stones must be bumpier to show up at tt scale:
00:28<kamnet>Man, I love Vikings.
00:40<supermop>viking ship grf?
00:40<supermop>minnesota vikings stadia grf?
00:42<kamnet>The television series
00:42<kamnet>Almost everybody is likable, but almost all of them are horrible.
00:44<Supercheese>I like Wikings
00:44<Supercheese>they would fit OTTD much better than Vikings
00:45<Supercheese>I'd need to make a larger seaplane port though, they are bestially huge planes
00:47<Supercheese>larger than the Pan Am Clippers
00:53<kamnet>So now that I'm done with ekranoplans... oh, wait, here's one...
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00:56<kamnet>20 actual prototypes and productions, 32 concept vehicle.
00:57<kamnet>Giving you a playable range from 1963 to at least 2018. Longer if you wanna give those concept vehicles some numbers.
00:58<Supercheese>Some are even already drawn:
00:59<kamnet>A few
00:59<kamnet>Could probably use some revamping.
01:00<Supercheese>Even the weird Boeing concept:
01:03<kamnet>Not a bad rendering. A bit small though
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01:45<kamnet>So, now that I'm REALLY done with ekranoplans, I guess flying boats are next.
02:03<supermop>it seems that bump maps just cant get as bumpy as i want
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02:07<andythenorth>lo bobs
02:07<andythenorth>also Pikka
02:11<Supercheese>I bought a great book on seaplanes from the local used bookstore
02:12<Supercheese>which according to a quick ISBN search is this book:
02:15<supermop>never heard of this one before:
02:15<Supercheese> The proposed passenger version of this was extravagant
02:16<Supercheese>got an entry for the P6M in my book here
02:16<Supercheese>decidedly not a passenger craft though
02:17<andythenorth>the Mars is epic
02:17<Supercheese>seaplane with 686 mph top speed though
02:17<Supercheese>pretty amazing
02:18<Supercheese>I love how that wiki page for the Mars references a Bruce Cockburn song I listen to often :)
02:19<kamnet>Looks like I can get my own copy for cheap too
02:20<kamnet>A few years ago I picked a copy of The Historical Atlas of North American Railroadds. Pretty heavy thing. Keep it at my desk.
02:20<Supercheese>"42 used from$0.06"
02:20<Supercheese>ha, pretty cheap if true - always that darn shipping though
02:23<Supercheese>always wanted a PBY Catalina in OTTD, for the eyecandy
02:23<Supercheese>the airfield near where I grew up had three or four of the things in the associated aviation museum
02:23<Supercheese>I was immediately enamored of them as a kid
02:26<supermop>any point in amphibious helicopters?
02:26<Supercheese>sexy beast
02:26<supermop>land next to an oilrig instead of on it?
02:26<Supercheese>double stepped sea hull
02:26<kamnet>That is gogeous
02:26<Supercheese>giant parasol wing
02:26<kamnet>And yes, we need more whirlybirds
02:27<Supercheese>retractable wing floats
02:27<Supercheese>and the teardrop blisters that houses the waist guns on the military versions
02:27<supermop>need more flying wings as well
02:27<Supercheese>also the landing gear for the amphibious version
02:36<kamnet>what stats need tracked for planes?
02:38<andythenorth>ugh, stupid Recycling Plant
02:38*andythenorth regrets everything
02:38<andythenorth>lo Alberth
02:39<@Alberth>:O everything is a lot
02:40*andythenorth regrets nearly everything :P
02:40*andythenorth especially regrets V453000
02:41<kamnet>Well if the breweries were making the right amount of brew, andy, you could just be drinking your regrets away now. Couldn't you?
02:41<V453000>cause I am starting to be able to do mass-stuff in RAWR very efficiently :)
02:41<V453000>thousands of sprites automated =D
02:42<@Alberth>before you know it, you're out of work
02:42<V453000>I wouldnt say that XD
02:42<V453000>just started thinking about a RV set, still want to do DOOM, ....... :)
02:43<@Alberth>yeah I know, terribly busy to make yourself out of work always fails :p
02:43<Supercheese>Hmm, I doubt andy could even load my save file, I use more than 64 grfs
02:44<kamnet>Using more than 64 grfs is a sign of a BAD PLAYER
02:48<@Alberth>there are no bad players
02:49<kamnet>Holy crap there's a freakin' ton of stats to track for planes
02:49<Supercheese>Compared to other vehicles?
02:50<kamnet>More than trams, anyhow
02:50<Supercheese>I dunno they seem about the same to me
02:50<Supercheese>aircraft seem to have less, even
02:51<Supercheese>no power, no TE, no air drag (ironically)
02:52<Supercheese>oh they separate the different flight stage speeds
02:52<Supercheese>was not thinking of that
02:53<Supercheese>that's optional by callback anyway, not strictly necessary to code them
02:54<kamnet>Is it worth doing that though
02:54<V453000>the air drag is one of the most ridiculous features in general
02:54<Supercheese>Not every airport supports the "in holding pattern" flight state
02:54<Supercheese>in fact, I think most airports do not
02:54<Supercheese>so that one's mostly moot
02:55<Supercheese>Fuel capacity and limited range are also purely optional and given a choice most players would disable it
02:55<Supercheese>crew/doors/aisles are completely irrelevant in OTTD
02:55<Supercheese>so yeah, not really that many stats
02:56<Supercheese>one stat that does matter though isn't even mentioned there: acceleration
02:56<V453000>why are you even tracking the stats kamnet? :0
02:57<Supercheese>it's an existing WAS stat sheet
02:57<Supercheese>well, I guess number of doors may translate into loading speed, but might as well track loading speed directly...
02:57<Supercheese>no sense adding another layer of abstraction
02:58<Supercheese>aircraft weight is also irrelevant
02:58<kamnet>Well I'm sure WAS goes for the gusto when it comes to realism.
02:58<Supercheese>to what end, I know not
02:58<Supercheese>half of that sheet is useless for coding
02:58<Supercheese>half of that half is purely optional to code
02:59<kamnet>When helping w 2cc trams we tracked how many doors were on vehicles to help determine loading speed
02:59<Supercheese>(the remaining half that is)
02:59<Supercheese>IMO just track loading speed measured in Ticks to Fully Load
03:00<Supercheese>like Pikkawiki does:
03:00<Supercheese>hmm although its aircraft table doesn't have loading speed
03:02<@planetmaker> moin
03:02<V453000>yo pm
03:02<kamnet>top of the mornin to ya
03:02<Supercheese>that's the one
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03:07<kamnet>seems a lot more reasonable
03:08<Supercheese>Runway is irrelevant for now, only difference is Small/Large
03:08<Supercheese>the Efficiencies are derived values so you don't need to generate them
03:09<Supercheese>only thing to add to that table is loading speed
03:09<Supercheese>oh and acceleration
03:09<@planetmaker>changing vehicle stats for realism reasons often doesn't go too well with the game. And hardly is noticed when playing at all (I think)
03:09<kamnet>good morning
03:13<andythenorth>loading speed is bollocks mostly
03:13<andythenorth>there’s no way for players to know
03:14<andythenorth>although I use it for some vehicle types
03:14<Supercheese>it can have a big impact though if the loading speeds are too slow
03:14<Supercheese>vehicles take ages in station
03:14<andythenorth>well yes, but that’s a bug
03:14<andythenorth>design failure, not design feature :)
03:15<@planetmaker>players can know via extra text ;)
03:15<@planetmaker>something you remove(d) everywhere :P
03:16<Supercheese>likewise there is still nontrivial differences between 5 ticks to fully load vs 1 tick to fully load
03:16<andythenorth>extra text is nonsense :)
03:16<andythenorth>hmm Squid has extra text
03:16<andythenorth>that should go
03:17<Supercheese>how else do we know how many fish FISH ships holds hold?
03:17<andythenorth>you won’t
03:17<andythenorth>nor how many pickles
03:17<V453000>andythenorth: NUTS players know about all loading speeds :P
03:18<andythenorth>extra text prevents partial compiles via nfo
03:18<@Alberth>easy, if there is fish left at the station after departure, you need more vehicles :)
03:18<andythenorth>the string IDs are unstable, so can’t be used in a partial compilation
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03:19<@Alberth>hmm, interesting reason to remove text :p
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03:20<andythenorth>it’s the reason it’s gone
03:20<supermop>V453000: do you use bump maps?
03:20<andythenorth>extra text is gameplay-neutral imho
03:20<andythenorth>does no real benefit, no real harm
03:20<V453000>obviously, yes :)
03:20<Supercheese>well, as long as the information is SOMEwhere...
03:20<andythenorth>buried in docs
03:20*Supercheese does RTFM
03:20<@Alberth>deep deep down
03:20<andythenorth>no-one will ever know that hoppers unload faster in Iron Horse
03:20<andythenorth>or that reefers have a payment bonus
03:21<supermop>ive made the strongest possible bump map for these rocks and still looks too flat
03:21<V453000>well then you can always use displacement map
03:21<supermop>*stones not rocks i guess
03:21<V453000>also, using actual texture of actual bumpy stones helps a TON
03:22<V453000>instead of using flat texture and making displaced mesh
03:22<supermop>but then shadows wrong most of the time...
03:22<V453000>yeah, usually not visible
03:22<supermop>no displament mapping in flamingo 2.0
03:22<V453000>OR unwrap the model and photoshop them to be right :)
03:22<supermop>no can do
03:23<supermop>unless i buy max
03:23<V453000>or blender
03:23<V453000>blender has quite decent way of unwrapping
03:24<V453000>I honestly think your software is limiting you
03:24<supermop>trying to make the most out of t
03:25<V453000>proper texture mapping is key
03:27<supermop>seems so limiting though, to make a specific texture for each and every object
03:27<V453000>well to some extent you can have universal textures
03:27<V453000>but every time you want it to look really nice, it is worth it to spend a little bit of time with it
03:27<supermop>damnit rhino 5 has displacement meshes...
03:30<V453000>for example, I have read the rule "imperfection is perfection in 3D", and it works. every time you add leaks/scratches/rust/dust/other mess to your textures, it just throws it to a whole new level
03:30<andythenorth>there must be a way to stabilise the string IDs
03:30*andythenorth has ideas
03:31<andythenorth>stuff a UID for the vehicle into a temp register at compile time
03:31<andythenorth>have a single global switch for returning buy menu extra text
03:31<andythenorth>look up the vehicle UID in that switch
03:31*andythenorth wonders just how random nmlcs random string ID assignment is
03:32<andythenorth>iirc, it is wholly random
03:33<andythenorth>random for cbs
03:33<andythenorth>stable for vehicle IDs
03:33<andythenorth>that’s why my current compile approach worked for vehicle names, and using string cbs fails
03:33<andythenorth>nml/actions/ L69 or so
03:35<supermop>i obviously need this:
03:37*andythenorth wonders why the changing string IDs don’t cause ottd to barf
03:37<V453000>openttd isnt a dog
03:37<andythenorth>when I was writing nfo, changing strings seemed to cause ottd to sick up all over my shoes
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03:54*chillcore goes boom boom
03:54<chillcore>also good morning interwebz o/
03:57<V453000>found diz yesterday
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04:12<andythenorth>22 of 66 done
04:12<andythenorth>what % is that? o_O
04:15<Supercheese>@cald 22/66
04:15<Supercheese>@calc 22/66
04:15<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: 0.333333333333
04:15<Supercheese>tertia pars
04:17<chillcore>@calc 0.333333333333 * 3
04:17<@DorpsGek>chillcore: 0.999999
04:18<V453000>soooo andythenorth what new features do we get? :)
04:18<chillcore>almost done andy ;)
04:18<andythenorth>V453000: I remove some stuff
04:18<andythenorth>Big Feature
04:19<andythenorth>also I stop running out of IDs
04:19<andythenorth>and maybe the codebase gets a lot smaller
04:19<andythenorth>random output cargos at the Recycling Plant, that has to die, yes?
04:19<V453000>I still need to play a game with the latest firs :(
04:19<andythenorth>I only did it to fuck with people
04:19<V453000>I also need to finish rawr and everything
04:20<V453000>well it isnt nice yeah
04:20<andythenorth>and feed the cats and have babies and make a career
04:20<andythenorth>busy V453000
04:20<V453000>it just doesnt do nice stuff to have random cargo
04:20<@Alberth>tram track look so ugly, with all those poles
04:21<andythenorth>there are better versions in grfs
04:21<andythenorth>I think pikka did one
04:21<andythenorth>but yes
04:21<Supercheese>foobar's tram tracks eh
04:21<andythenorth>but yes *especially* with steam trams :P
04:21<Supercheese>well just make the wires invisible with transparency setting
04:22<Supercheese>then re-enable them when electric trams come out
04:22<Supercheese>simple workaround really
04:23<andythenorth>the simplest
04:23<andythenorth>it’s great
04:23<andythenorth>another great workaround I like is the money cheat
04:24<andythenorth>works around having no money at game start
04:27<andythenorth>another good cheat
04:27<andythenorth>when there isn’t a vehicle in the game I want
04:27<andythenorth>I just code one
04:27*andythenorth might be trolling
04:27*andythenorth would like the option to build wires / not wires
04:27<Supercheese>would indeed be nice
04:27<Supercheese>no support for that yet though
04:28<Supercheese>roadtypes... ...
04:28<andythenorth>roadtypes are never happening
04:28<Supercheese>seems like it
04:28<Supercheese>combinatorial expansion nightmares
04:28<andythenorth>prioritising theoretical perfection over getting things done
04:28<Supercheese>what should be layerable with what and what not...
04:29<andythenorth>it’s all nonsense
04:29<andythenorth>road powered / road not powered
04:29<andythenorth>make it a toggle on road-building toolbar, like one-way
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04:34<andythenorth>just a bit on a tile
04:35<andythenorth>FIRS brewery flag isn’t animated
04:35<andythenorth>dairy flags are
04:38<chillcore>de wapper vlagt niet ... *sniff*
04:39<chillcore>^^^ for the dutchies xD
04:39*andythenorth can now speak dutch
04:40*andythenorth wishes for ffwd
04:41<chillcore>kinda hard to translate ... hmm
04:42<chillcore>the wave does not flag ... *sniff* ??
04:46<chillcore>"the sign does not flag" ... would be a more correct tranlsation
04:48<chillcore>roadtypes would be cool though xD
04:48*chillcore goes to shaking brainz to tha beat
04:49<andythenorth>roadtypes would suck
04:50<chillcore>I'd love me some dirty roads
04:50<chillcore>speed restricted
04:50<chillcore>for industrieal terrains
04:51<chillcore>allyways; airports
04:51<andythenorth>you’d get bored and upgrade them
04:51<andythenorth>we always build big + fast
04:51*andythenorth bbl
04:51<chillcore>nah ... you do em as eyecandy
04:51<chillcore>move on the next place when done
04:53<chillcore>you place a sign near your industry so you rebuild it later
04:53<chillcore>or disable them vanishing all toghether ...
04:53<chillcore>anyhoo they would look cool
04:53<chillcore>think nutracks ...
04:54<chillcore>anyhoo ... lot's of work
04:54<chillcore>then you could has trams and monorail at the same time o_O
04:56<chillcore>on the vehicle (newgrf) side nothing changes ... that is one less thing to worry bout
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06:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r27223 trunk/config.lib (2015-04-11 12:25:36 +0200 )
06:25<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#6274]: Support for DragonflyBSD (AMDmi3)
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06:38<supermop>beer time
06:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r27224 trunk/config.lib (2015-04-11 12:47:20 +0200 )
06:47<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Duplicate #ifdef for FreeBSD (AMDim3)
06:48<TrueBrain>the cleanup is to duplicate? :D
06:55<frosch123>yeah, such a throw-away mentality
06:55<frosch123>instead of cleaning the old one, buy a new one
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07:08*frosch123 likes the forum topic about "congestion problems"
07:08<frosch123>"serious congestion problems" even
07:09<supermop>beer time has evolved into rye time
07:09<supermop>anyone used shapeways?
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07:27<frosch123>the "bundle" target of nml looks weird
07:27<frosch123>what is this buildout thing?
07:27<frosch123>it does not seem to produce anything useful
07:30<@planetmaker>buildout might be somewhat bitrotten
07:31<frosch123>yes, i think "delete" is the fix here
07:31<@planetmaker>anyhow, mostly is used to create the bundles for nml
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07:36<frosch123>deleted :)
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07:40<frosch123>also removes some weird license :)
07:40<@Alberth>a zillion-1 to go before it can be removed from the internetz
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07:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r27225 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2015-04-11 13:50:02 +0200 )
07:50<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#6262]: Be more lenient about road stop removal when at least one stop could be removed (afd88)
07:51<frosch123>planetmaker: i tried to make a distribution with setuptools
07:52<frosch123>but the bundle name is nml-0.4.1.r5579-38eee7e4b652.tar.gz instead of nml-0.4.1.tar.gz
07:52<frosch123>(i made a tag locally)
07:52<@planetmaker>yes, that's another issue maintainers complain about. We should change that
07:52<frosch123>ok, i thought your pep440 thingie was about that :)
07:53<@planetmaker>yes, partially
07:53<@planetmaker>not sure it affects the filename
07:53<@planetmaker>it checked the reported version
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08:08<frosch123>yay, nml-0.4.1.tar.gz
08:10<Rubidium>do I smell a 0.5.2 release there?
08:10<frosch123>nml first
08:11<heffer>i only take working releases this time :P
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08:12*Rubidium wonders whether catcodec still compiles
08:14<frosch123>planetmaker: btw. do you have to login-credentials for the devzone user at ?
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08:19<frosch123>planetmaker: do we want to keep the "next_release_version" at all?
08:19<frosch123>i changed it so it is not used for tags
08:20<frosch123>how about replacing it just with "dev" ?
08:21<frosch123>"nml 0.4.1", "nml dev.v5579:bf15cd22a3a2 from 2015-04-11"
08:21<frosch123>hmm, or just empty?
08:21<frosch123>"nml 0.4.1", "nml v5579:bf15cd22a3a2 from 2015-04-11"
08:24<@Alberth>empty seems fine to me
08:42<frosch123>planetmaker: i think nml 0.4.1 is ready (except for obvious readme and changelog updates)
08:42<frosch123>i made a local tag and bundle, installed it in a vm and compiled xussr
08:43<frosch123>(it's really hard to find a grf that does not require gimp or other tool mayhem)
08:55<frosch123>opengfx also looks fine to me
08:55<frosch123>bundle names and make bananas look fine when tagged
08:55*frosch123 -> shopping
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09:54<Elukka>so i had one station for a secondary industry, and eventually split that up into a dropoff and loading station
09:55<Elukka>cargo is no longer being picked up from the original (now dropoff) station but half of it is still put there by the industry, never to be picked up
09:55<Elukka>is that gonna resolve itself?
09:55<@Alberth>for a new enough openttd, yes
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10:00<Elukka>ah, that's nice
10:00<Elukka>i'm on a very recent nightly
10:01<@Alberth>should be ok in 21-ish months
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10:23<Elukka>love how all the little edge case quibbles get fixed over the years
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10:51<@Alberth>tgen light patch queue review please
10:54<@Alberth>chillcore: swapped 30 and 40, and simplified 30, mostly
10:54<@planetmaker>frosch123, I'll try look at nml again tomorrow and then possibly release it. Thanks for your work on it
10:56<chillcore>I am looking at the commit messages Alberth.
10:57<chillcore>order matters little here ;)
10:57<chillcore>except for the later tuning that is ;)
10:57<@Alberth>codechange is literally doing the same thing with different code
10:58<@Alberth>so some of your codechange aren't by our definition
10:59<chillcore>quite positive on that
11:00<frosch123>i do not quite agree with 40
11:00<frosch123>same issue we discussed last week
11:00<chillcore>feel free to adjust or ask me adjust ... whatever comes first
11:01<chillcore>yes it kinda is frosh but not really
11:01<frosch123>there is no rule for relative height, doing a partial adjustment for rainforest does not lead to a general solution
11:01<chillcore>there is no partial adjustment goint on ...
11:02<chillcore>before it was 16 / 4
11:02<chillcore>at mapstart and never changed
11:02<frosch123>how about adding a new setting variable, and assign TGPGetMaxHeight to it during generation
11:02<@Alberth>you decide on tile-kind during mapgen, and changing actual height afterwards has no effect
11:02<frosch123>then use that "setting" for all of rainforest/desert/newgrf snowline
11:02<chillcore>I could re-ad tthat yes
11:03<chillcore>lost a bit ... woops
11:03<frosch123>with "setting variable" i mean something like the generation seed, so not real user setting, but something from mapgen that is stored during the game
11:03<frosch123>and accessible during the game
11:03<chillcore>now it just reads toptile at mapgen and set it to a qurter
11:03<chillcore>hmm ...
11:04<chillcore>as it is now you get sandy dunes
11:04<frosch123>if the user snowline setting would be changed to a percentage, it could also make use of that
11:04<chillcore>is maxheigt is at 60 and you generate a map at 30
11:04<chillcore>indeed frosh
11:04<chillcore>that is what I tried to say before
11:05<frosch123>60 should use BEGIN and END-1 in settings.ini
11:05<chillcore>they all depend on one value and they should have their own
11:05<frosch123>otherwise there is no point in the patch :p
11:05<chillcore>I will not argue with that
11:07<@Alberth>good point @ 60, fixed
11:08<frosch123>50: "very flat" is for the douchebags who want no slopes at all. so increasing it to 15 will result in a feature request for veryveryflat
11:09<chillcore>feel free to halve the values
11:09<chillcore>no lower then 3
11:09<chillcore>snowline ^^^
11:11<@Alberth>chillcore: only the 1st line?
11:11<chillcore>yes please
11:11<frosch123>amplitudes_middle is only used for one map size? :o
11:12<@Alberth>{ 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7 }, ///< Very flat
11:12<chillcore>yeah 512 an akwerd kid
11:12<chillcore>that looks good alberth
11:12<chillcore>7 is on the big maps only
11:14<chillcore>frosh: later I may have some way to store presets per smallest madside
11:14<chillcore>64 is kinda hard to get right too
11:14<chillcore>but i did not want to overwhelm you :P
11:15*chillcore does not have that code yet
11:15<@Alberth>frosch123: if I want to have a nice tropical map, sometimes high and sometimes flat, I have to change a non-user variable?
11:16<@Alberth>note that the tile kind isn't changed afterwards anymore, unlike eg snowyness
11:16<chillcore>could be made variable seperate from snowline ... at mapgen
11:17<frosch123>Alberth: question is whether a flat map should have rainforrest at all
11:17<@Alberth>you can have a variable, but it just shifts the problem from computing a value to having to set one manually
11:17<chillcore>lots would be 3/4
11:17<frosch123>Alberth: the point of the variable is that you can use it in three places that require a height reference
11:18<chillcore>we could treat it like water
11:18<@Alberth>ah, a % of rain forest? sounds nice
11:18<frosch123>the assumption of the patch is that the max_height setting is not useful to define high and low
11:19<frosch123>but the same applies to various other places where max_height is used
11:19<@Alberth>I don't disagree with the latter at all
11:20*chillcore hmhms
11:20<@Alberth>a percentage of tiles could work
11:20<frosch123>i see no difference between rainforest and snowline
11:20<chillcore>dependant on generated top tile thank you very much indeed
11:20<frosch123>sure you can change the height of a tile during gameplay
11:21<frosch123>and that may or remove snow
11:21<frosch123>but it does not affect the snowline
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11:21<chillcore>right because they are different climates
11:21<frosch123>the snowline is either a fixed height or a yearly curve in *percentage of max mapheight*
11:21<@Alberth>the trick is that the snowline should be a percentage of tiles
11:21<chillcore>generated height
11:21<@Alberth>of generated height imho
11:22<chillcore>inf the player goes higher .... assign snow by defautlt
11:22<chillcore>the variation happens lower so ...
11:22<chillcore>maybe dissalow going lower sure
11:22<@Alberth>and probably 2 variables, my rain forest percentage has little to do with snowline
11:23<frosch123>snowline in percentage of tiles sounds weird to me
11:23<frosch123>that couples it to variety distribution and other weird things
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11:23<@Alberth>it gives you a somewhat fixed amount of snow, no matter how high you make the mountains
11:24<frosch123>no, it doesn't
11:24<frosch123>that would be percentage of maxium uses height
11:24<frosch123>percentage of tiles makes makes it depend on whether there are peaks or general high terrain
11:24<@Alberth>no, you start at max height snow, and repeatedly decrease snowline, until you have x% snowy tiles
11:25<@Alberth>it's the only thing that works equally for all map heights
11:26<chillcore>yeah and newgrf always have that part to play with too
11:26<frosch123>well, assuming you want snow-capped mountains: in the %-height case you set it to 70%. in the %-tiles case you set it to something weird like 2%
11:26<frosch123>you have to guess how many mountains there would be
11:26<chillcore>set to 110 and poof snow is gone ;)
11:26<@Alberth>with 70% you break it fully by changing max height
11:26<chillcore>untill you raise a mountain high enough haha
11:26<frosch123>and yes, it would make the user-snowline very different to newgrf snoeline
11:27<@Alberth>I don't disagree with that either :)
11:27<frosch123>Alberth: if using the current max_height, but not when using TGPGetMaxHeight
11:27<@Alberth>but we're handling rain forests now
11:29<@Alberth>ok, I just want something that works for all map heights without having to magically tweak some value
11:29<frosch123>ok, if you change desert and rainforest to %-tiles, we do not need a solution for snow yet :p
11:30<frosch123>assignnig desert and rainforest to height has always been weird anyway, and very confusing for players
11:30<frosch123>so, if you can make it use the fractional heights instead of rounded heights, that would be even better :p
11:30<frosch123>(like sea level)
11:30<@Alberth>it worked for TTD :)
11:31<frosch123>because ttd had no terrain type setting in arctic and tropic
11:31<frosch123>it was fixed at hilly and flat
11:31<@Alberth>yep, hard-coding the solution worked nicely then :)
11:31<frosch123>so, it has not been working since ottd 0.5 :p
11:32<@Alberth>quite likely :)
11:32<@Alberth>chillcore: want to try the above proposal?
11:33<@Alberth>have rainforests as a fractional percentage of tiles?
11:33<chillcore>adding three prestes and a custom setting for desert based on percentage of generated height ... sure?
11:33<frosch123>two settings :) desert and rainforest
11:33<frosch123>same as sea
11:34<@Alberth>desert == all that's not forest and not sea, right?
11:34<frosch123>no, there are 3 terrain types
11:34<chillcore>hmm setting-ception
11:34<frosch123>or 4 if you count sea
11:34<frosch123>sea - normal - desert - rainforest
11:34<@Alberth>ah, right
11:34<frosch123>desert has min distance to sea
11:34<frosch123>rainforest has min heightlevel
11:34<frosch123>or so
11:35<chillcore>yes and fro river too ... they sharethe 4
11:35<frosch123>we have no percentage setting for rivers :p
11:35<frosch123>haha, make the map 70% rivers :)
11:36<chillcore>rough terrain makes them hard to spawn
11:36<frosch123>rough terrain is ugly anyway
11:36<chillcore>autosloping rivers is for laters maybe
11:36<frosch123>it even says so in the description
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11:39<@Alberth>chillcore: if you want to add those settings, here is the edited patch queue
11:40<frosch123>Alberth: just commit the rest of it? :p
11:40<frosch123>it's independent from the other stuff, isn't it?
11:40<Elukka>five bauxite mines at quadruple production in FIRS.. that's.. that's a lot of ore
11:41<@Alberth>Elukka: quadruple IS a lot more :)
11:41<@Alberth>frosch123: good idea, seems like it
11:41<@Alberth>supplies can make a huge mess in the network :)
11:42<chillcore><Alberth> desert == all that's not forest and not sea, right? desert starts at 4 tiles way from water ... the whole map, then tropical forest starts at that level and makes everything above forest
11:42<chillcore>so yes
11:42<@Alberth>ok, will commit everything except 40 then later tonight, unless you have trouble with that chillcore
11:43<chillcore>I just downloaded your zip
11:43<chillcore>will have a looksie
11:44<chillcore>you want to set it in tiles like snowline is now or in percentage off? for custom that is
11:45<@Alberth>snowline is a problem, as newgrf already has a definition of that
11:46<@Alberth>we settled on percentage of tiles for rainforest
11:46<@Alberth>where you can set it more precise than 1%
11:46<@Alberth>ie add a *256 or so
11:47<@Alberth>then it still fits in int16
11:47<frosch123>chillcore: like sea lvel
11:47<frosch123>*sea level
11:47<@Alberth>frosch123: and also a percentage of desert?
11:48<chillcore>yeah sea level is what I meant before
11:48<frosch123>sea level is determined with the fractional heights, before rounding it to integer heights
11:48<@Alberth>ie we drop the fixed distance 'normal' tiles
11:48<frosch123>Alberth: the fixed distance is also ugly for bigger maps :p
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11:49<chillcore>intead of calling it desert line I could call it forest line ... :P
11:49<frosch123>so, imho: normal = 100% - sea - desert - rainforest
11:49<@Alberth>hmm, you may want to check what multiplier sea level uses, and use the same thing chillcore
11:49<@Alberth>fair enough frosch123
11:49<frosch123>with the restriction sea + desert + rainforest < 95%
11:49<chillcore>1024 IIRC
11:49<@Alberth>and a desert percentage too then
11:50<chillcore>dersert does not work that way
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11:51<chillcore>at mapgen sandman said: let there be sand and there was sand
11:51<Starbud>hi all
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11:51<@Alberth>the question is, can it be changed like we'd like, chillcore?
11:51<@Alberth>I have no idea if that can be done, or how difficult it is
11:51<chillcore>then the foresty bits are coloured in
11:51<@Alberth>so please have a look
11:53<Starbud>i have an issue about the mouse in OTTD, it seem to not want to register all inputs from the mouse when playing OTTD, works fine in other programs
11:53<Starbud>any ideas as to why this happen?
11:53<@Alberth>none at all :(
11:53<chillcore>Alberth: either you have a desert line or you have a tropical line ... adding both and saying there is line is ...
11:53<@Alberth>may be a SDL1 problem Starbud
11:54<Starbud>i'm sorry, i dont know what SDL1 is
11:54<@Alberth>chillcore: "line" ?
11:54<chillcore>the forests around water is a seperate value
11:54<chillcore>you can think of it as a line on the terrain ....
11:54<chillcore>I see it tha way anyways
11:54<@Alberth>hmm, ok. Line is not moveable ?
11:55<@Alberth>Starbud: it's the video/mouse library that we use
11:55<chillcore>sure we can
11:56<Starbud>oh i see, i assume this is an rare problem?
11:56<chillcore>Anberth: but we ara not talking about the same value I guess
11:56<Starbud>is there something i can do about it?
11:56<chillcore>damned spelling*
11:56<@Alberth>Starbud: I think so, I don't remember seeing such a report
11:57<Samu>i got a lifetime aircraft research in 1 image -!806&authkey=!APqLeilkxpUR3nY&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng
11:57<Starbud>ok, i think i'll ask in the forum to see if anyone else has noticed it
11:58<@Alberth>Starbud: you can search for other people with the same problem, the forum is one option, but eg SDL1 and your machine or your windows version may give some hits in google
11:58<chillcore>Albert: the value that sets the terrain around water is one value; the one that seperates desert from tropical forest is another one; only the latter is bound to height
11:58<@Alberth>you can also search, but I doubt there is anything there
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11:59<Starbud>oh, i'll try that first
12:00<@Alberth>chillcore: how is the latter defined? you only want to be able to change it
12:00<@Alberth>eg can I increase it by 1 or so?
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12:01<chillcore>it reads maxheight in trunk
12:01<@Alberth>aka 'dead' :p
12:02<@Alberth>hmm, wrong value, it seems
12:02<@Alberth>the value that sets the terrain around water is one value <-- this one needs to be changeable, I think
12:03<@Alberth>increase/decrease it, until we have a good percentage of desert
12:04<@Alberth>if feasible, else we need another solution
12:04<chillcore>how do we want to call this magic bugger ... tropical desert line or desert line?
12:05<chillcore>tropical forest* doh
12:06<chillcore>having both of them at he same time will cause fights over the border
12:06<@Alberth>desert line seems fine to me
12:19<Samu>do lumber mills actually spawn in openttd?
12:19<Samu>did they spawn in ttdlx?
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12:24<@Alberth>not in all climates
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12:36<@Alberth> <-- samu, it says it is not built at all
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27226 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2015-04-11 19:45:16 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 10 changes by Supercheese
13:55<V453000>my latest animation for work :D very openttd like
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14:21<Starbud>Alberth i think you might be on to something about that mouse issue, some other people have the issue in other games, i tried a solution for high DPI mouses that get scaled wrong, it did give a wierd effect that the mouse now works in one direction but the same as before in the other directions
14:22<Starbud>here is the solution :
14:22<Starbud>i'll do some more testing later
14:22<Starbud>just if you happen to remember it if someone else ask
14:22<Starbud>not sure what good it will do tho :(
14:23<@Alberth>me neither, I don't even have windows
14:23<@Alberth>but thanks anyway
14:23<@Alberth>I hope it works for you
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14:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27227 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:41:41 +0200 )
14:41<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Initialise map at level 0 instead of -32k (chillcore)
14:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27228 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:42:48 +0200 )
14:42<@DorpsGek>-Change: Slightly more water in the non-custom sea levels (chillcore)
14:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27229 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:43:30 +0200 )
14:43<@DorpsGek>-Change: Generate more detailed curves at the coast (chillcore)
14:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27230 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:44:26 +0200 )
14:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Tune down terrain generation to reduce amount of long slopes (chillcore)
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27231 /trunk/src (genworld.h table/settings.ini) (2015-04-11 20:45:18 +0200 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Replace magic numbers for the smoothness setting (chillcore)
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14:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r27232 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2015-04-11 20:46:01 +0200 )
14:46<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Tweak noise generator more precisely for different map sizes (chillcore)
14:47<@Alberth>and thanks for your work chillcore
14:53<chillcore>WOOT \o/
14:53<chillcore>Thank you ;)
14:54<chillcore>Enjoy interwebz o/
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14:56<chillcore>Alberth: you're welcome.
14:59<chillcore>I will do that forest around water (configuarble) in tiles; it makes more sense there? the other value can still be a percentage of generated height
15:00<@Alberth>the great patch
15:00<@Alberth>the game programmer
15:00<@Alberth>terra genesis procedure
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15:02*chillcore blushes
15:02<Rubidium>this great procrastinator?
15:06<Samu>ok gonna generate a 4096x4096 map with this new version
15:07<Samu>oh, 4096x4096x255
15:07<chillcore>ohoh ... samu's gonna break me shizz :P
15:08<Samu>i think i put too much water
15:09<Samu>generating 12k towns
15:09<Samu>12% cpu use:(
15:11<Samu>it can create more than 5000 towns apparently, but when setting a custom number it's limited to 5000
15:12<@Alberth>you bought too many CPUs
15:12<Samu>ok im gonna generate 8 maps
15:15<Samu>meh, just 4, one for each climate
15:17<Samu>alpinist not really alpinist :(
15:17<chillcore>maybe lower that amount of industries and towns on such large maps ;)
15:17<chillcore>also alpinist and very rough maybe?
15:18<chillcore>and disable variation for a sec too
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15:19<chillcore>that should spice things up a notch xD
15:20<Samu>arctic very flat looks literally very flat indeed, strange to look at it
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15:21<Samu>quite long waves
15:21<Samu>before +1 level
15:22<Samu>let me restart arctic
15:22<Samu>ah i see what was wrong, map height was 15
15:23<Samu>ok, now 255
15:24<Samu>desert has still too much desert in my opinion
15:24<Samu>not many rainforest areas
15:24<Rubidium>Samu: that's realistic since we're currently trading rainforest for desert in any case
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15:25<Samu>there's a concentration of rainforest industries in tight places
15:25<Samu>rubber plants, farms, fruit plants
15:26<Samu>and then there's a very sparse desert only industries
15:28<Samu>not a good balance imo
15:28<Samu>gonna try different settings
15:30<Samu>looking at toyland, there's much more rivers now indeed
15:33<Samu>i dunno why ice isn't spawning, brb
15:33<Samu>oh, i see, this combination of settings isn't good
15:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27233 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqapi.cpp (2015-04-11 21:33:36 +0200 )
15:33<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6272]: crash when no AIs were installed due to improper handling of non-ASCII characters by the string pointer lexer
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15:35<@Terkhen>good night
15:36<Samu>there seems to be much less water hops the bigger the map
15:36<Samu>it's either a big ocean, or rivers
15:36<Samu>in contrast, there's much more rivers now
15:38<chillcore>my prefered setting is hilly samu ;)
15:38<Samu>ok, gonna try hilly for arctic
15:39<chillcore>rivers: because they have more flat tile to flow
15:44<Samu>ah, the maps look better the smaller they are
15:46<Samu>was there any change to original?
15:49<Samu>towns being split in half because of these many rivers
15:49<Samu>road grid isn't all that good
15:49<chillcore>which original? xD
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15:50<Samu>desert seems to have become poorer now
15:50<chillcore>the original terraingenerator is still there
15:50<Samu>it's almost all of the terrain is desert, about 90%/10%
15:51<Samu>any idea?
15:51<chillcore>working on that desert samu ... you'll have presets and custom values
15:51<Samu>oh nice
15:52<Samu>well, very flat with no variety distribution and a 4096 map looks very.... noobish-like
15:53<Samu>feels like a flat map created in the scenario editor lol
15:53<@Alberth>it's called very flat for a reason :p
15:54<Samu>really, no water, except rivers
15:54<@Alberth>turn rivers off :p
15:54<Samu>512x512 looks like a good size
15:55<@Alberth>it usually is
15:55<@Alberth>quite playable for a single player
15:55<chillcore>To claim an STD_NULL in the savegame ... from 143 or 144 or 195 ?? been a while I did this ...
15:55<@Alberth>and you don't get lost all the time :p
15:56<Samu>i think there's bad water distribution now
15:56<Samu>but overall
15:56<Samu>better hills
15:56<Samu>more rivers
15:56<@Alberth>chillcore: sorry, no idea
15:56<Samu>just that water is now in a all or nothing, barelly any spots
15:57<Samu>u know what i'm saying?
15:57<@Alberth>very flat and water doesn't go well together perhaps?
15:58<Samu>i mean the water is all concentrated in a huge spot
15:58<Samu>and wherever is land, there's barelly any hops of water
15:58<@Alberth>add some variety distribution?
15:58<Samu>ok, let me try that
15:58<chillcore>you'll have more freedom over that with the tgen gui version
15:59<chillcore>and variety ... and mapborders
15:59<chillcore>lots of things to play with
16:00<chillcore>also 256 * 1024 is an option
16:00<@Alberth>yeah, that's quite fun
16:00<Samu>oh, variety seems to be doing wonders for water hops
16:02<Samu>low water level + very high variety = quite a lot of water though, I wonder what happens with high water lvl
16:04<chillcore>presets got a bit of a boost for to generate nicer maps in more cases
16:04<Samu>strange i was expecting more islands
16:04<Samu>looks nice
16:04<chillcore>custom water levels are available
16:05<chillcore>thank you
16:05<Samu>desert still takes the majority of terran
16:06<Samu>ok, i guess I like it, just have to play a bit with it to get familiarized
16:06<Samu>desert however, looks worse overall, compared to what it was
16:06<Samu>there's much less rainforest now
16:07<@Alberth>yep, we are aware of the problem
16:07<Samu>or i didn't find the ideal ... ok
16:07<@Alberth>it's due to max height of the map, which has become somewhat meaning less
16:07<Samu>arctic seems to have benefited most from this
16:07<@Alberth>we need a new way to specify this
16:08<chillcore>samu: desert: increase to mountainaise for now ;)
16:11<Samu>i'm not too familiar with toyland, it's been a while since i played it, but i remember some industries requiring special height levels
16:11<Samu>a quick glance seems fine, but... i have to play toyland i guess
16:11<chillcore>I suppose we want gui options for these two values?
16:11<Samu>think it was the bubbles industry
16:12<chillcore>or will settings gui do?
16:12<chillcore>I would like to banish max_height there too ...
16:12<chillcore>in time ... one thing at a time xD
16:15<@Alberth>don't remember special industries in toyland
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16:41<jjavaholic>when the openttd wiki says "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations" under town growth what does it mean it real terms like what is a unit of Cargo?
16:42<frosch123>1 passenger, 1 bag of mail, 1 ton of coal, 1000 litres of oil
16:42<frosch123>that kind of thing
16:43<frosch123>1 unit means just "anything at all"
16:44<FLHerne>That should be " each of up to five stations", really?
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16:44<frosch123>i means, just build 5 bus stops in a row, and send one bus on a circle route over them
16:44<FLHerne>You don't need to drag the same unit of cargo through all the stations in succession, that would be silly
16:45<FLHerne>Actually, is this load/unload from a vehicle (inc. transfers), or collect/drop from the station?
16:46<frosch123>it means loaded
16:46<frosch123>load 1 unit of cargo at 5 stations
16:46<frosch123>does not matter whether you deliver it
16:46<frosch123>you can also pick up the same unit and force-unload it again without delivering :p
16:47<jjavaholic>it does kinda sound like cheating
16:47<Samu>i just noticed i have land area information hiding aircraft 11
16:48<frosch123>jjavaholic: then don't read up on game mechanics details
16:48<frosch123>the only purpose of a site listing mechanics is to give hints how to exploit them
16:48<frosch123>also, it's "exploiting", not "cheating"
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16:50<jjavaholic>I wasn't judging. So from a town of 0 population I'm better with a filler station or transfering from a city regularly than two 0 population towns?
16:50<jjavaholic>with trains that can hold more cargo?
16:50<frosch123>a town with 0 population does not produce any passengers
16:51<frosch123>other than that the population has no influence on growth
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16:51<+glx>like station walking :)
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16:53<Samu>i really have to focus 1 thing at a time
16:56<Samu>ok, bridge over lock is my next job
17:01<Samu> if (IsBridgeAbove(tile) || IsBridgeAbove(tile - delta) || IsBridgeAbove(tile + delta)) {
17:01<Samu>got to split this in 3 parts
17:03<Samu>starting with the easier part
17:03<Samu>tile and tile + delta
17:03<Samu>tile - delta will be hard I bet, it needs a bridge of at least 2 height difference
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17:22<Samu>bah, slope height is hard to understand
17:22<Samu>ok tile + delta is the easier one then
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18:16<Samu>this is harder than i thought
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18:56<Samu>can u spot the problem?
18:57<Samu>what am I missing? where do I need to edit to make the bridge ramp appear?
19:00<frosch123>DrawBridgeMiddle or something
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19:11<Samu>void DrawBridgeMiddle(const TileInfo *ti)
19:20<Samu>omg i dunno what to do
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19:38<Samu>I don't know how to do this part
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19:50<Samu>ok, i can't do this alone
19:50<Samu>better work on the logic part first
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20:20<frosch123>yay, i fixed opengfx makefile, so it actually produces proper "make: Nothing to be done for `all'."
20:20<frosch123>instead of redoing most stuff all the time
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22:17<kamnet>Home from work. I'm wore out
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22:40<kamnet>Congratulations frosch123
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23:11<supermop>3d printing little spaceframes is expensive
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23:15<Supercheese>even if you have your own printer?
23:15<Supercheese>or you mean ordering one?
23:16<Supercheese>Since I already have one, each successive part is individually pretty cheap - but of course amortizing the cost of the printer itself effectively makes parts more expensive
23:17<Supercheese>I should print out little OTTD vehicles
23:17<kamnet>Make them look nicer than Sapphire United's attempts
23:18<Supercheese>yeah he has identified some inherent issues with the models on the repo
23:18<Supercheese>they were naturally not designed for printing but rendering
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>use pixeltool
23:20<Supercheese>That has a 3D model export to it?
23:20*Supercheese checks
23:21<Supercheese>I do not see any option for that
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>it'd probably be trivial to add
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>if you know the format
23:22<Supercheese>well, I don't want to start another miniproject, still working on OGFX+ Airports
23:22<Supercheese>gotta add the seaplane port and fences parameter
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23:40<supermop>the pixel thing seem particularly well suited to lower res 3d printers anyway
23:40<supermop>i'm ordering the spaceframes
23:41<supermop>preferably in metal as a necklace for fiance's birthday
23:41<supermop>i wonder if 3d prints or original sprites would be fair use
23:42<kamnet>Will they really appreciate a Jinty, though? ;-)
23:42<kamnet>Just use the open-source licensed stuff and it's all in the clear
23:42<supermop>as you would have to make new 3d models inspired by them, not like you'd use the original sprites
23:42<supermop>well i want to make some little capsule towers anyway
23:43<supermop>but you could make the sort of fake capsule tower that shows up in TT
23:43<supermop>plus others, on standard square bases
23:43<supermop>Table Top Transport Tycoon
23:43<supermop>must roll a 6 every turn to prevent train from breaking down
23:45<supermop>still better than original breakdowns
23:46<supermop>i really need a new computer
23:46<supermop>rendering shiny metal spaceframes with a product render type set up is pushing it
23:55<kamnet> spaceballs
23:55<kamnet>render spaceballs
---Logclosed Sun Apr 12 00:00:30 2015