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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-24

---Logopened Fri Apr 24 00:00:46 2015
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07:57<andythenorth>@seen danmack
07:57<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
07:58<andythenorth>also, is daylength done yet?
08:08<@Alberth>people seem to disagree on what daylength actually means :)
08:09*andythenorth was being a naughty
08:09<andythenorth>I don’t hold out much hope for a patch where the fundamentals are so widely misunderstood
08:10<@Alberth>me neither :)
08:22<@planetmaker>yeah... though it actually only needs making a decision as to what *should* be understood
08:22<@planetmaker>And mostly the wanted feature is slower ingame time progression
08:23<@planetmaker>Thus adjusting the display of yearly and monthly costs according to the stretch factor probably would do the trick
08:23<@Alberth>nah, slower introduction of new vehicles, imho
08:24<andythenorth>multiplier to the vehicle introduction function
08:24<andythenorth>call it ‘speed of technology ladder'
08:24<andythenorth>probably won’t suit the foamers :P
08:24<andythenorth>who are probably the main candidate for daylength
08:24<andythenorth>“I absolutely must be able to see my toy trains in real time"
08:25*andythenorth favours ‘double all introduction dates'
08:25<andythenorth>that would sort it
08:25<andythenorth>*lots* of extra time to wait for a vehicle introduced in 2010
08:25<@Alberth>most players pick random newgrfs that are mentioned somewhere, and get newgrfs with way too many trains
08:26<@Alberth>then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
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08:28<@planetmaker>yeah... the giant choice of vehicles gives the impression of too fast
08:28<@planetmaker>and it's true, even with default, it's quick in the later years when you have a huge empire
08:28<@Alberth>just the days flying by in about 3 seconds already does that
08:29<@Alberth>just like displaying a goal in BB gives the pressure to fulfill it, even though nobody says you should, and there is no penalty if you don't
08:30<andythenorth>in Iron Horse
08:30<andythenorth>I am sitting there, thinking ‘wtf, where is new trains?’
08:30<andythenorth>and my ffwd is bust :)
08:31<@Alberth>play bigger map, or higher industry density :p
08:31<andythenorth>more BB goals
08:31<andythenorth>15 not 7
08:31*andythenorth didn’t try that
08:31<andythenorth>Very Busy Bee
08:31<@Alberth>or higher speed of technology ladder :p
08:31<andythenorth>did someone add that feature yet? o_O
08:32*andythenorth is tempted to do it in newgrf, just to prove the point
08:32<@Alberth>you didn't add it in IH ?
08:32<andythenorth>not as a parameter
08:32<andythenorth>I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P
08:32<andythenorth>because….eh, who knows
08:32<@Alberth>random reason X
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08:33<@Alberth>usually I spend waiting time just by watching trains :)
08:33<andythenorth>usually I spend time hoping someone draws better boats :)
08:39<andythenorth>no comment
08:39<kamnet>I think ChillCore's tweaking of the daylength patch for his patch pack hit the sweet spot for everybody
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08:43<andythenorth>did it make the value available to newgrf?
08:43<andythenorth>presumably FIRS needs recoded to handle daylength
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08:46<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> I could do a date multiplier parameter, but forums would still want daylength :P <-- you could tell people to just not read spam mails. or you could install a spam filter.
08:52<mczapkie>may I have a question: is it possible to use company colours for DrawString procedure?
08:53<mczapkie>I see that text colours are slihgtly different than normal colours
08:53<mczapkie>pink and pale green doesn't match
08:54<Odin><Alberth> then they feel pressured in not being able to use all trains
08:55<Odin>Or they run NARS and its basically impossible to hang the engine's rated load on the drawbar due to train size limits
08:55<Odin>Trying to compensate using the weight multiplier only makes the train unprofitable because it doesn't multiply the profitability to match
08:56<Odin>I end up running till the 1960s using the Shay for short line freight and either the consolidation or 2-10-4 Texas for mainline freight
08:57<@Alberth>it's quite possible NARS is the wrong set for you :)
08:57<Odin>Possibly. What other american rail sets are there?
08:58<Odin>The problem I have with NARS is once you get around 1900 even the smallest locos are so powerful that a train long enough to properly load it down is also so long it doesn't fit between towns or in stations
08:58<@Alberth>Don't know, mostly all XYZ country newgrfs are broken for me in having too many engines
08:59<Odin>I end up with 2-8-0 Consolidatons pulling 14-21 car trains all over the place, and basically can't even use the 2-8-8-2 Mallet or 2-6-6-2 Challenger because I can't put a long enough train behind them to make them profitable
09:00<Odin>I don't mind having too many engines, its nice to have options. Even though I basically pick out the best pullers for a task and stick to them, like my use of the Lima Shay for short-line freight
09:00<@Alberth>there is a "reduce costs" parameter, tried that?
09:00<Odin>That might be the ticket, run that with weight multiplier
09:01<Odin>Ideally I'd like to be able to run the Challenger on a 14-length express freight and have it stay profitable until dieselisation
09:01<Odin>To make that happen, it'd have to be 7-10x weight multiplier and the profitability similarly adjusted
09:02<@Alberth>there are also basecost modify newgrfs you can use
09:04<Odin>This is a problem too, but its not openttd's problem at least
09:04<kamnet>With most NewGRF train sets, people aren't playing them because they're trying to run a profitable game. They're playing them because they want trains to represent certain companies or geopolitical regions.
09:05<Odin>I like the american rolling stock in nars, but it also tries to implement realistic costs and pulling power
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09:05<Odin>Which is sorta gamebreaking for openttd
09:05<Odin>It was designed for much smaller trains
09:05<kamnet>That's pretty much why Pikka's stopped with NARS and is developing Pineapple Trains. Not only smaller selection, but better balanced to gameplay
09:05<Odin>American engines are gigantic, designed to pull gigantic trains across gigantic empty spaces.
09:06<kamnet>Which OpenTTD isn't optimized for
09:06<Odin>From the stock sets being the British engine lineage, it was probably tuned for that kind of environment. Modest engines pulling reasonable trains in the short hops betwen villages
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09:07<kamnet>That makes me wonder something, I know there's a penalty if a train stops in a station that isn't long enough to hold it all, is it just a fixed rate of penalty, or is it a penalty per car over the length?
09:16<@Alberth>per car, afaik
09:17<@Alberth>Odin: OpenTTD is not a simulation, it's a game. Lots of people try to simulate their country in it, but it's just not designed for it
09:18<@Alberth>reality is a source of inspiration, and that's it
09:23<@planetmaker>Alberth, I agree, but we have a problem there: "OpenTTD is a transport simulation game based upon the popular game Transport..."
09:23<@planetmaker>from our own readme. First line of the 'About' section :)
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09:24<@Alberth>it simulates transport, that sounds fair
09:25<@Alberth>it doesn't say realistic transport nor realistic simulation
09:25<@planetmaker>yup. But those are fine semantics hard to argue with non-native speakers (like us :P )
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09:26<@Alberth>I am fine with changing it to "non-realistic transport simulation game"
09:27<@Alberth>a far better solution could be to allow 2 new engines each decade at most, and have 5 newgrfs at most, or so
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09:28<@planetmaker>and a year later: -Feature: Increase allowed engines per decade to 5
09:28<@planetmaker>30k-party, here we come! :)
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09:41<Odin>Yeah. It simulates running a transport network. It does not accurately simulate any particular country or scenario
09:43<Odin>What I'm hoping for though is to be able to run the NARS locos while also at least being profitable, even if the train length is chopped to 1/10th normal due to game limitations
09:43<Odin>It sounds like the operating cost multiplier might be the key piece I needed, make the engines 1/10th the cost to run and pull cargo 10x heavier
09:44<Odin>then the trains woudl be the correct length, but still profitable too
09:44<Odin>*would be a reasonable length
09:47<kamnet>What would probably be more reasonable would be to code a new set and ask Pikka to borrow NARS sprites. :) And, not call it NARS.
09:48<kamnet>PABST = Profitable and Balanced Set of Trains
09:48<@Alberth>Odin: you have have pre-defined requirements, and you try to squeeze NARS in it no matter what, even though it clearly doesn't go that way? :)
09:49<@Alberth>Pikka sprites are gpl afaik
09:49<kamnet>Grade level crossings are hell:
09:54<andythenorth>pikka sprites are more on the lines of “I don’t care as long as you ask” rather than GPL ;)
09:54<andythenorth>in my experience
09:55<@Alberth>fair enough, it's always nice to ask first
09:55<andythenorth>if you hang around long enough, Iron Horse will have one or more US / Canadian rosters
09:55<andythenorth>probably ~2 years away I think
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10:33<Odin>Its more a matter of I've been trying to make this work and arrived at the 7-10x multiplier in experimenting
10:33<Odin>Along similar lines, any grfs that add road vehicles before the 1920s? Something along the lines of horse-carts to relay from the train station to the other side of town
10:35<andythenorth>it’s well made
10:35<andythenorth>but rather large number of vehicles
10:36<Odin>Not worried about that
10:36<andythenorth>you could try the alpha of Road Hog, it’s downloadable from in-game content
10:36<andythenorth>Road Hog has no horses, but offers vehicles from 1860s
10:36<Odin>I usually pick the ones that I want to use, and set the rest to hidden status to avoid the clutter
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10:37<Odin>1860s would work. I usually start around 1889, since that's when the Lima class C Shay I like is introduced in nars.
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11:38<mczapkie>knock knock
11:40<andythenorth>o/ mczapkie
11:44<mczapkie>Despite of topic, may I ask if I can ask a technical question?
11:44<@Alberth>you can always try
11:45<andythenorth>I always ask if I can ask
11:45<mczapkie>what is a meaning of "from" field in settings.ini? I suppose it have nothing to do with setting range
11:45<andythenorth>can I ask if I can ask if I can ask?
11:45<@Alberth>mczapkie: that's not even off-topic :)
11:46<@Alberth>it's the first savegame version that has the setting
11:47<@Alberth>ie savegames with version less than 100 are not expected to have a field you added in savegame number 100 :)
11:47<mczapkie>thanks, I will fix it
11:48<mczapkie>invalid chunk size is related to this?
11:49<@Alberth>chunk size is the cumulative size of a part of the savegame, which is of course computed wrong if you expect fields that aren't there
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11:49<@Alberth>since an old openttd version never wrote that field :)
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11:50<@Alberth>fix is easy, travel back through time to add the field
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11:53<mczapkie>another question, if I may ask :) is it possible to change background of DrawString procedure?
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11:55<mczapkie>or it is uniform for whole widget window?
11:55<mczapkie>what I need to do is to distinguish different company vehicle numbers in station window list
11:56<@Alberth>strings only draw foreground
11:56<@Alberth>you'd have to draw background before drawing the string
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11:58<mczapkie>DrawRect() ?
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11:59<@Alberth>ie GfxFillRect at the area of the string
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12:01<@Alberth>if (vscroll_pos != 0) GfxFillRect(left, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP - 1, right, py - WD_MATRIX_TOP, _colour_gradient[COLOUR_GREY][5]); at train_gui.cpp 406 looks like it, but not sure what it does exactly
12:05<mczapkie>above is for dragging, I guess
12:06<mczapkie>but I have no idea, where vehicle list for the certain station is constructed (did not found neither in train_gui nor station_gui)
12:07<@Alberth>doesn't matter, a few lines below is a drawstring DrawString(data_left, data_right, py, STR_QUANTITY_N_A, TC_LIGHT_BLUE);
12:08<@Alberth>it uses left/right, and py as well
12:09<@Alberth>(data_left/right to compensate for RTL languages)
12:10<@Alberth>so that's the pattern, draw a background at the area of the string, then draw the string over it
12:11<mczapkie>ok, I understand how this fill rect works (I just responded on question, what it does exactly)
12:12<mczapkie>but my prolem is, that I cannot find where is defined station widget "show all ... which have this station in their shedule" - I cannot even found appropriate string in lang
12:13<@Alberth>that's a tooltip?
12:13<mczapkie>yes, I just found it: STR_STATION_VIEW_SCHEDULED_TRAINS_TOOLTIP
12:15<mczapkie>looks bad, if I understand how this widget works
12:15<@Alberth>line 789 station_gui uses it
12:17<mczapkie>yes, but I probably must write a child class for this widget
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12:17<mczapkie>I need to define separate background or text color for each vehicle
12:18<@Alberth>:{BLACK}{TRAIN} <-- that's the little train icon
12:19<@Alberth>you need lots of buttons, one for each company, I think
12:20<@Alberth>you can override the default render code of a widget
12:21<mczapkie>sorry, I messed up - I dont need to change widget itself, just the window with train list which pop ups
12:23<@Alberth>iirc there is a generic list-vehicle thingie
12:24<mczapkie>ShowVehicleListWindow ?
12:24<@Alberth>used for buy menu, vehicle lists, and one other thing
12:24<@Alberth>ShowXYZ is the code to actually create the window, it doesn't do much but creating a Window object
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12:26<@Alberth>AllocateWindowDescFront<VehicleListWindow>(&_vehicle_list_train_desc, num); <-- that creates an instance of the VehicleListWindow class
12:27<@Alberth>which in turns displays that to the user
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12:27<argoneus>knock knock
12:30<mczapkie>thanks for all comments, I will try to make some Infrastructure Sharing Patch fixes
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12:30<@Alberth>hmm, please don't leave so fast
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12:48*kamnet scrubs scuff marks from the floor
12:48<Odin>Some people don't understand the joys of idle relay chat
12:48<kamnet>Kids are always in too much of a hurry.
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12:52<mczapkie>apologise that I leave so fast, but I have short half decay time of ideas which I just started to understand :)
12:56<@Alberth>just wanted to wish you good luck with the patches
12:57<@Alberth>and yeah, irc is a very relaxed medium :)
13:00<mczapkie>So I whish pleasant relaxation then :)
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13:04<Odin>as he instantly leaves again instead of enjoying the idle time
13:04<Odin>I know ADHD is a thing, but limits...
13:08<@Alberth>and asking all kinds of question you can ask here too :)
13:09<@Alberth>I guess some people always immediately close an application when they are done with it :)
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13:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: no iron horse recommendation in FIRS readme?
13:13<andythenorth>apparently not
13:14<@Alberth>also, FISH
13:14<andythenorth>FIRS readme is silly
13:14*andythenorth could do something about that one day
13:15<@Alberth>you need to contact a FIRS developer to add them, it seems
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13:15<andythenorth>I believe Alberth is a FIRS devloloper
13:15<@Alberth>I am ?
13:16<@Alberth>oh, indeed
13:16<@Alberth>how can I help you ?
13:16<@Alberth>/me pulls the updates
13:17<andythenorth>you could just update the readme
13:17<andythenorth>and convert the remaining 24 industries...
13:18<@Alberth>in 'snakebite'?
13:18<@Alberth>you won't like my idea of conversion very much, I think
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13:23<andythenorth>I imagine
13:23<@Alberth>that'd be the quickest solution
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14:32<@Alberth>pushed an update to the readme template
14:36<andythenorth>if I could be inspired to do it, I should combine readme + website content
14:36<andythenorth>I was going to kill most of the readme
14:36<andythenorth>but $someone said it was useful
14:36*andythenorth pulls
14:37<andythenorth>thanks :)
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15:31<Wolf01>hi hi
15:31<@Alberth>hi hi
15:33<Wolf01>this time at the gym almost killed me
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15:36<Wolf01>yeah, the VPN connection now works!
15:37<@Alberth>so 24/7 online at work now?
15:37<Wolf01>sysadmin found he misconfigured the iptables
15:37<frosch123>wireing stuff in the server room does not count as gym
15:37<frosch123>now matter how much you have to twist yourself to reach behind the server
15:37<Wolf01>I'm not the sysadmin :P
15:38<andythenorth>usually, it turns out nobody is the sysadmin
15:40<Wolf01>we have clear figures on our company, you can't mistake
15:40<Wolf01>but hey, I can do a lot more things, don't let anybody know it :P
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15:49<Wolf01>I need a suggestion, I have a class which returns 2 different instances of another class, but this class should not be a factory and it should handle the classes passed on the constructor: should I pass the 2 instances of the same class on the constructor?
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15:51<@Alberth>sounds fine to me
15:51<@Alberth>objects are not very different from eg numbers
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16:03<Wolf01>mmmh, it could be tricky... to instance the second one I need a value which only the main class knows
16:03<Wolf01>huge refactoring ahead
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16:07<Wolf01>mmh, just avoid to construct the child class with some value and use a setter... which opens a lot of more ways to do something weird
16:09<@Alberth>I use very few getters and setters
16:09<@Alberth>usually public fields will do just fine :)
16:10<andythenorth>don’t you like to fill your classes with _foo ? :P
16:10<andythenorth>and @property declarations?
16:10<andythenorth>just in case somebody, somewhere, tries to read private vars?
16:10<@Alberth>I just let them, even in Java
16:11<andythenorth>imagine, they might pass in wrong values!
16:11<andythenorth>and you can’t prevent it!
16:11<andythenorth>what happens if incompetent developers work with your code!
16:11<Wolf01>I started to develop with interfaces, I have interfaces for everything
16:11<@Alberth>and Java is broken enough not to have a protected field for derived classes :p
16:12<andythenorth>if we write enough getters / setters, we can write unit tests for all of them!
16:12<andythenorth>provably correct code!
16:12<@Alberth>interfaces are such a pain to jump around in the code
16:13<@Alberth>so I only use them when a baseclass won't work
16:13<Wolf01>nah, not that bad
16:14<@Alberth>Eclipse has a F3 "jump to definition" button, which is totally useless with an interface, as you really don't want the interface itself :p
16:14*andythenorth is not a proper programmer, so never has to consider these things :)
16:14<@Alberth>by that standard, I am not a proper programmer either :p
16:15<@Alberth>which is of course totally possible
16:15<Wolf01>phpstorm has that too, and works the same way, but I'm used to it
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16:46<@Terkhen>good night
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17:11<Odin>Okay, so I know about the weight modifier setting
17:11<Odin>Where is the operating cost setting? The only one I see I already have bottomed out
17:12<Odin>Accounting/Running Costs is set to low
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23:47<kamnet>Can I ask a question here? How do you kill trains on this MUD?
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 25 00:00:48 2015