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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-25

---Logopened Sat Apr 25 00:00:48 2015
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00:05<kamnet>Good afternoon
00:06<kamnet>well darn.
00:30<kamnet>Darn. Was saying hi to Flygon and he left
00:31-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
00:34<Alyx_Moon>And here is your chance once more!
00:36<kamnet>Good afternoon, Flygon!
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01:24<Supercheese>I am very tempted to reply to this post ( with simply: "Yes."
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01:50<Flygon>Supercheese: Well... that IS a valid answer
01:51<Flygon>But I'd feel it'd be less rude to say "Yes, all of the above are still proceeding"
01:58<Alyx_Moon>Well I'll admit, it seemed a bit too quiet at first when I got into it (about a month back). It took a bit of searching to discover it was still active.
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02:01<@planetmaker>hehe, Supercheese :)
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02:16<TartarusMkII>Heya guys, I have a question. I've been playing OpenTTD for a while, but I often get stumped and can't find any more fun things to do. And without multiplayer, I have no real competitive factor, other than to just try different set ups of stuff I've already done.
02:16<TartarusMkII>Can anyone reccomend any new set of goals, or mods? I want to try mods, but I don't understand them because some mods seem like they are for a totally different game when I browse...
02:20<Supercheese>Well, there are numerous goal scripts, but I tend not to use those
02:20<@Rubidium>everything that you find in the in-game content download thing is for OpenTTD
02:20<Supercheese>I play a game with the objective of connecting every town and transporting every cargo from all industries
02:20<Supercheese>once that is complete, I have "won" that map
02:21<@Rubidium>having said that, silicon valley is a goal script that asks you to transport a certain amount of goods for I believe 3 cargos in a certain timeframe
02:21<Supercheese>then, since that usually will take me several months of free time here and there, I will generate a new map, change newgrfs (since they will have updated in the interim) and go again. Of course, I also write my own grfs and that motivates me a fair bit...
02:21<@Rubidium>based on the amount of these goals you manage to achieve, you'll get some sort of medal
02:22<@planetmaker>also BusyBee is meant to give you things to do
02:22<Supercheese>newgrfs (mods, essentially) are the lifeblood of "new stuff to do" really
02:22<@Rubidium>though I'm usually playing the same as Supercheese with the added difficulty of a minimum station rating
02:22<Supercheese>you can try out different train sets, industry sets, town sets
02:28<TartarusMkII>What is a minimum station rating?
02:28<TartarusMkII>One thing I really enjoy doing is building up a big strong train system around only a few industries, and getting them built up to be able to produce a lot, have lots of trains go in and out, sstuff like that. But it's hard to get a station or industry to get strong enough to act that way.
02:29<@Rubidium> and minimum in this sense means that the lowest station rating on any station is higher than that minimum goal I set for myself
02:29<TartarusMkII>I'm totally interested in more train sets, industry sets, and town sets. But I've seen before in some train additions, that the graphics appear to be at a much higher resolution than what the default game is, and I don't understand it.
02:30<TartarusMkII>And I didn't know you could see or detect the station's rating. thought it was a backstage number
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03:01<@Alberth>you may want to try nuts train set, it is aimed at big time transport networks
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03:03<@Alberth>pineapple is another one that looks interesting, haven't tried that
03:03<@Alberth>playing a map with a lot of water, and Squid (fish2) is another nice game :)
03:05<@Alberth>as for industry sets, you can try firs, start with a basic economy (settable in the parameters), as full firs is too much at first, you get totally lost
03:06<@Alberth>you need to add a different trainset, or extend the default trainset with new cargoes though
03:06<TartarusMkII>Is it easier to search for nuts and firs from in-game? I am appreciative of the mod browser in-game, but I found it a bit confusing.
03:06<@planetmaker>yes, do use the ingame content download
03:06<TartarusMkII>Okay, let's see. *slaps at keyboard*
03:06<@planetmaker>it has a search box
03:07<TartarusMkII>Oh wow, nuts gives trains up until 2099? XD
03:08<@Alberth>if you like the default sets, you can try the opengfx+ sets, they are like the default set, but a little nicer
03:08<TartarusMkII>Yea, personally I much prefer the original art style.
03:09<@Alberth>could be, I usually start around 1920 with nuts, and are 'done' around 1990
03:09<TartarusMkII>I feel a bit stupid because I know lots of cool mods will have updated graphics, but I find it so charming.
03:09<@Alberth>no worries, lots of people do
03:09<TartarusMkII>Are there any opengfx+ sets you'd recommend by name?
03:09<@Alberth>although rawr looks very good (but still in development)
03:10<@Alberth>all of them? :)
03:10<@Alberth>they are complementary, one for trains, one for landscape, one for industries, one for RVs
03:10<@Alberth>one for air thingies
03:11<@Alberth>ie type "+" in the search box :_)
03:12<TartarusMkII>hmm, stll lookin' at firs
03:12<TartarusMkII>It's hard to tell, but does any art firs add work out with opengfx+ or no?
03:13<@Alberth>firs is an industry set, so you get new industries and new industry behavior
03:13<@Alberth>you'll like the style :)
03:14<@Alberth>you can combine firs with the trains of opengfx+ for example
03:14<@Alberth>or with nuts trains
03:14<TartarusMkII>awesome thanks, I'll get that and read its manual.
03:14<TartarusMkII>Alberth I quite appreciate the help, one reason I love OpenTTD is that this community has always been patient, and ready to answer my questions. I had hoped that I could get more of my own gaming friends interested, but no one really bit.
03:15<@Alberth>it's not a game that hooks you right away, you need some time to get into it
03:15<@Alberth>and for some the 8bpp graphics are just crap
03:15<TartarusMkII>I want to see what other people do too, because I keep ending up doing the same thing.
03:16<@Alberth>the fun part is you can play openttd in many ways
03:16<TartarusMkII>I read on the wiki that subsidies are useful for players joining late into a multiplayer game. But that gave me a weird idea of how multiplayer works. Can people drop in and out of games that are set to go on for a long period of time? What is the purpose?
03:17<@Alberth>I don't know, I rarely play MP
03:17<@Alberth>but that would be one option yeah
03:17<@Alberth>but you can also play with friends at a lan
03:17<@Alberth>in coop or against each other
03:18<@Alberth>which you usually do all at the same time
03:18<TartarusMkII>Can you use other player's stations? like two players n two sides of the map gathering passengers and then sending them to eachother?
03:18<@Alberth>at ~15 minutes / year, a game from 1950-2050 takes real-life 24 hours :)
03:19<TartarusMkII>lol does the original game of TTD even give trains that late in history?
03:19<@planetmaker>TartarusMkII, that depends on how the servers are configured. But any player can join them at any time
03:19<TartarusMkII>I've never gotten to mag lev yet, actually.
03:19<@planetmaker>And start a new company as well - if there is still a free company slot
03:19<@Alberth>no, infrastructure is separated by comapny
03:19<@Alberth>but in coop everybody plays the same company
03:19*TartarusMkII nods
03:19<@planetmaker>hehe, except the stations attached to oil rigs ;)
03:19<@planetmaker>you can share cargo by routing it via an oil rig :P
03:20<@planetmaker>but only one company gets the profit, all of it :P
03:20<TartarusMkII>I see, I see
03:20<@Alberth>there is also an infra-structure sharing patch in the development section of the forum
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03:20<@planetmaker>thus it's actually a bug to share cargo via oil rig. Of sorts at least
03:21<TartarusMkII>as for industry sets, you can try firs, start with a basic economy (settable in the parameters), as full firs is too much at first, you get totally lost
03:21<TartarusMkII>you need to add a different trainset, or extend the default trainset with new cargoes though
03:21<TartarusMkII>How did you mean by the second post?
03:21<@Alberth>default trainset only works with default industry set
03:21<@planetmaker>it means to use OpenGFX+Trains or something like old vehicles, new cargoes
03:22<@Alberth>so if you change industries, you must change train set, like ^, or it won't work
03:22<TartarusMkII>Do all modded train sets work with other mods' industries?
03:22<@Alberth>eg firs has 'timber', but default train set doesn't know what to do with it
03:23<@Alberth>practically they do
03:23<TartarusMkII>There's this =o
03:23<TartarusMkII>Weird, so what kind of vehicle transports timber in some other mod unrelated to fits?
03:24<@planetmaker>TartarusMkII, I do not recommend to download newgrfs from non-ingame. Not because they're not good, but... much more hassle :)
03:24<@Alberth>for example , "old vehicles, new cargoes" is another such grf
03:24<TartarusMkII>And yea, I posted the website just to look at it, I'm browsing from in game.
03:24<@Alberth>generic cargo support was added later to the game, and all modern vehicle sets support that
03:25<@Alberth>so you can basically pick most vehicle sets, the default set being the biggest exception
03:25<@Alberth>of course, different train sets have different number of cargo-specific graphics
03:26<@Alberth>eg nuts has specific graphics for every cargo ever invented in openttd
03:26<TartarusMkII>I can't seem to find "old vehicles, new cargoes"
03:26<@planetmaker>and might well be the only set with that property
03:26<TartarusMkII>sorry if I misunderstood.
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03:27<TartarusMkII>But that's good to know, I can understand.
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03:28<@planetmaker>well, I do recommend OpenGFX+Trains (and +RV) instead of "old vehicles, new cargoes" - as it has new graphics as opposed to the latter
03:28<@planetmaker>"Old Wagons with New Cargos"
03:28<TartarusMkII>oh okay I see
03:28<TartarusMkII>does this mod do the same thing though? =o
03:29<TartarusMkII>err nvm I just read waht you said
03:29<@planetmaker>probably similar. But might only support old FIRS versions
03:29<@planetmaker>thus not its newest cargo additions
03:29<@planetmaker>though... via cargo class wouldn't matter really
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03:29-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #debian-mentors #/r/openttd @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.devzone #openttdcoop.bots @+#openttdcoop +#openDune #oftc #freerct #debian
03:29<@Alberth>there are so many newgrfs, I haven't tried all of them :)
03:30<@Alberth>wb planetmaker
03:30<TartarusMkII> this is what I See on the in game browser when I search for opengfx+ (along with other vehicle types)
03:30<@Alberth>basically, try it, if you like it, keep it, if you don't, delete it
03:31<@Alberth>yep, that's the project page
03:31<TartarusMkII>Hehe I am just confused at how some of it works, like if any of it is compatible or not with eachother. I don't even know what a gfys is
03:31<@planetmaker>nasty ctrl+w in wrong window, Alberth ;)
03:31<@Alberth>thought so :)
03:32<@Alberth>short cut for closing windows is dangerous :)
03:32<@Alberth>TartarusMkII: don't try too much at once
03:33<@planetmaker>TartarusMkII, it's generally considered good advice to start with a few select newgrfs only. Doesn't really matter which. Just try a few which you think might be interesting
03:33<TartarusMkII>Well like, how do I choose which mods I am using of the ones I ahve downloaded?
03:33<@planetmaker>only thing really important is: if you use an industry NewGRF, also use vehicle NewGRFs
03:33<TartarusMkII>And yea, that makes sense. I have modded and such in plenty of other games, just confused at the conventions this community has.
03:34<@Alberth>we have a wiki for everything :)
03:34<@Alberth>although it's getting out of date, lately :(
03:34<TartarusMkII>Oh thanks, I keep forgetting ho extensive it is
03:35<TartarusMkII>but if I have these opengfx+trains AND nuts, they won't conflict, will they? just become additive?
03:35<@Alberth>depends on the newgrfs in question
03:35<@Alberth>often you get both
03:36<@Alberth>although I never play with more than one train set
03:36<@planetmaker>that would work in this case, yes. But they follow totally different concepts, thus their prices etc. would look strange in comparison
03:36<@Alberth>I prefer to concentrate on building the network rather than messing with the details of all the different trains
03:36<@planetmaker>generally you can use as many vehicle sets as you want. Practically that doesn't make much sense
03:37<@Alberth>eg for me, about 90% of the train sets is too big :)
03:37<TartarusMkII>website links to this
03:37<@Alberth>too many slightly different trains
03:38<TartarusMkII>that would work in this case, yes. But they follow totally different concepts, thus their prices etc. would look strange in comparison "
03:38<TartarusMkII>err, quoting in this is weird. but planetmaker what did you mean by that/.
03:38<@Alberth>each trainset is designed as stand-alone
03:39<@Alberth>nuts aims at making networks -> long vehicle life time, cheap trains, low running costs, big power
03:39<@Alberth>nars aims at more realisim -> more different vehicles, high running costs, expensive trains
03:40<@Alberth>each a good goal, combined doesn't really work well
03:40<@Alberth>nars is too expensive all the time compared to nuts
03:40<@Alberth>so basically you have a useless nars trainset
03:41<@Alberth>that happens with most combinations
03:41<@Alberth>they are not designed to be combined with another set in a useful manner
03:42<TartarusMkII>oh okay I see how you mean, thanks
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03:44<@Alberth>the only exception is probably if you aim for extreme realism, you want to recreate trains in some country in some era
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03:44<@Alberth>in that case, you want some specific variant of a model that existed at some specific moment in time, no matter what
03:45<@Alberth>there are loads of such newgrfs :)
03:45<@Alberth>and they make for very pretty pictures, see the screenshot forum
03:47<TartarusMkII>haha I see, I see.
03:47<Supercheese>Gresley A4s are especially beautiful IMO, both in OTTD and IRL
03:47<TartarusMkII>What does GRF stand for anyhow??
03:48*TartarusMkII googles the Gresley!
03:48<Supercheese>that... is a good question
03:48<Supercheese>graphics resource file?
03:48<@Alberth>fair enough :)
03:48<@Alberth>although it hardly covers its functionality, as you can dramatically change game play
03:49<@Alberth>well beyond new graphics
03:49<@Rubidium>well, original GRFs contained more than just graphics, so game resource file would be less misleading
03:49<TartarusMkII>Yea I figured. lol
03:49<@Alberth>"game resource file" seems generic enough :)
03:50<Supercheese>let's go with that
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05:20<frosch123>"i am playing openttd without patches and chillspacks" (german forum)
05:20<frosch123>"chillspacks" are a new way to modify the game :)
05:23<@Rubidium>damn... he must have an ancient version of OpenTTD then ;)
05:24<@Rubidium>(from before ludde started to merge patches)
05:30<frosch123>it's all ludde's fault
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05:32<chrysn>hi, i'm facing large amounts of negative income in a cargodist game. is there any way to trace this down in-game?
05:32<chrysn>(to the best of my understanding, negative income can result from over-estimated transfer pseudo-payments, or fees for being late, and i don't know how i could tell)
05:33<@Alberth>basically look how its cargo travels
05:33<chrysn>can't the transfer payments be calculated more accurately in cargodist mode?
05:34<@Alberth>theoretically, sure
05:34<chrysn>this primarily happens with passengers
05:34<@Alberth>no implementation yet, though
05:34<chrysn>Alberth: oh, then i have to update my mental model of it ... things make sense, then
05:35<@Rubidium>if you want to make the payments more accurate, then you need to do a lot more bookkeeping. For example, you will only be able to assign payments to previous legs once the final delivery has taken place
05:36<@Alberth>pax go in large quantities, and in all directions, so more likely to cause problems here and there
05:36<chrysn>(without cargodist, the source would be obvious -- i have a high capacity large distance airport network, and then ship passengers around from the hubs, with trains and partially even with ferries, often "backwards".
05:36<chrysn>of course, then, air transfer is overrated)
05:36<@Alberth>with cargodist, payment is the same
05:36<@Alberth>it's just the routing that is done by the computer
05:37<@Alberth>people believe it changes everything, but it only does routing, nothing else :)
05:38<@Alberth>of course, some already existing bad spots get more exposed more
05:38<chrysn>Rubidium: i wouldn't mind getting the payment information only when the cargo is finally delivered and then accurately, but i'm aware it'd be a deep change
05:38<@Alberth>it'd also costs performance
05:40<chrysn>ok -- now that i'm aware of it, i'll just swallow down the costly train connections.
05:40<@Alberth>you can change feeder leg profits, to reduce the impact
05:40<chrysn>just an idea: is there a way to make transfer payment estimations more conservative?
05:41<chrysn>i think you answered before i asked :-)
05:41<@Alberth>that would be one form :)
05:42<@Alberth>big advantage, it works today :)
05:43*chrysn is running his latest savegames through a year with different feeder leg profit settings
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05:47<chrysn>works like a charm. thanks a lot for your quick help
05:48<chrysn>and many kudos for developing this great game -- my friend and i spend hours in cooperative multiplayer, having great fun.
05:49<frosch>cooperative play is the best type of play :)
05:50<frosch>never play with V though :p
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07:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27244 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-04-25 13:12:47 +0200 )
07:12<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#6245]: Do not consider road junctions with trivial dead ends as branch points during town growth. (_dp_)
07:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27245 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2015-04-25 13:30:27 +0200 )
07:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6251]: Removing a rail waypoint used the remove-rail-station cost. (adf88)
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07:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27246 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2015-04-25 13:37:57 +0200 )
07:38<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Deduplicate code between removing part of a rail station and removing the whole rail station. (adf88)
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07:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27247 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-04-25 13:46:10 +0200 )
07:46<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Make GrowTownAtRoad return a bool.
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07:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27248 /trunk/src (4 files) (2015-04-25 13:58:19 +0200 )
07:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6257]: Town labels on smallmap and zoomed-out viewports were not centered. (_dp_)
08:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27249 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-04-25 14:17:16 +0200 )
08:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6240]: In some cases town growth failure was considered as success. (_dp_)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>isn't "treat failure as a success" a motivational thing?
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08:44<andythenorth>that was a pretty hostile greeting Alberth
08:44<andythenorth>I am hurt
08:44<andythenorth>oh noes
08:44<andythenorth>it’s pikka :(
08:44<andythenorth>now what will happen?
08:45<Pikka>hogs probably
08:45<andythenorth>you played a game?
08:45<Pikka>not in a while
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>obviously the correct reply to "o/" is "\o"
08:45<andythenorth>did you make us a so-called “GameScript” yet?
08:45<Pikka>perhaps we need a server or something
08:45<Pikka>I did not
08:45<andythenorth>servers I haz cannot for a few days :(
08:45<andythenorth>due to obligations
08:45<andythenorth>but yes
08:45<Pikka>swine obligations
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>swine offspring?
08:47<andythenorth>mostly not
08:47<andythenorth>there are moments of that though
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>a lot of german figures of speech include swine
08:47*andythenorth ponders Inverse Bee some more
08:47<kamnet>hello again.
08:48<andythenorth>win by *not* transporting n of x to y
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>the only way to win is to not play at all?
08:49<andythenorth>no you have to play still
08:49<andythenorth>I am working out how :P
08:57<andythenorth>hmm, did someone add a GS interface to cdist?
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
08:58<frosch>you can query planned stuff and track flows
08:58<@Alberth>yeah, afaik you can access it
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, reading, but not influencing
08:59<@Alberth>nobody said anything about influencing :)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>not everybody says what they mean :p
09:02*andythenorth was wondering about flows
09:03<andythenorth>Busy Bee tends to give me a lot of cargo-destination pairs that are already served
09:03<andythenorth>which is nice, because I ‘win’ with no extra effort
09:03<Pikka>me also too
09:04<andythenorth>I think that’s fine in BB
09:04*andythenorth wondering about a GS that doesn’t set goals where there is already a flow
09:05<andythenorth>or even uses existence of a flow to screw with player somehow
09:05<@Alberth>sounds like fun
09:05<andythenorth>dunno how it works yet
09:08<andythenorth>maybe a GS around feeders
09:09<@Alberth>build a station in the middle of nowhere :p
09:10<@Alberth>oh, nice :)
09:10<@Alberth>cdist GS
09:10<andythenorth>not sure yet
09:10<andythenorth>it can be tricky to influence cdist as a player
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09:12<andythenorth>“Worldport” :P
09:12<andythenorth>all cargo must be transferred via a hub
09:13<andythenorth>probably interesting once
09:13<andythenorth>lacks depth
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>i've been wondering, are current flows recorded even if cargodist is disabled?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>probably doesn't make a lot of sense
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have no recollection of writing this "yearlength" hack, but i still have the file, and the log says i posted it...
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause>(it also says it's non-functional and needs refinement to compile)
09:32<andythenorth>worked for me
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09:32<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
09:32<DanMacK>Hey all
09:33<andythenorth>yearlength hack is an example of ‘completely solves problem, but wouldn’t be accepted'
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, it solves "a" problem, but causes a few dozen others
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>which makes it not any better than all the other daylength approaches
09:35<andythenorth>I can’t understand the flow stuff
09:35<kamnet>I live about 90 minutes fro worldport. Masive piece of work
09:35<andythenorth>can we track cargo from source (x, y) on the map to destination (x1, y1)?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>what's a worldport?
09:36<andythenorth>average flow, not individual packets would be enough
09:36<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: where you ship stuff to other planets
09:36*andythenorth is thinking about goals like ‘move coal to the towns on the west of the map'
09:37<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: or other continents if you consider that a difference :p
09:43<kamnet>Eddi|zuHause: Worldport is a massive cargo/package airport facility in the US.
09:46*andythenorth looks in NoGo spec
09:46<andythenorth>can it read cargo accepted at an industry
09:47<andythenorth>but we have no real idea of what an industry ‘is’ in a GS
09:47<andythenorth>i.e. type
09:50*andythenorth is looking for excuses to put powerplants back in FIRS
09:51<andythenorth>“Old King Coal” GS
09:52<andythenorth>hmm, if GS could manipulate industry :(
09:52<andythenorth>that would be interesting
09:54<andythenorth>searching for chibi stuff brings me some odd google image results :(
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound like a word i would google
09:56<andythenorth>chibi startrek porn is horrible
09:56<andythenorth>I wish I could unsee that :(
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you won't get to know what a cargo label means
09:58<andythenorth>well, constraints cause creative solutions, right? :|
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10:10<Wolf01>hi o/
10:10<Pikka> that's probably enough waffle for one evening. Goodnight all. :)
10:10<@Alberth>gn pikka
10:11<@Alberth>:o spiffy
10:11<Wolf01>looks really good
10:12<Pikka>:) laterzzzzz
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10:15<kamnet>People interested in chibi star trek porn also searched for: Star Trek into Darkness; Star Trek: The Motion Picture; Star Trek: Enterprise; Star Trek: Voyager; Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan
10:16<frosch>i assume the reverse implication is also valid :p
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10:17<frosch>moin fjb
10:36<kamnet>I think Bing may be slightly wrong about what certain people are searching for. :P
10:41<Wolf01>I can't find what I search for with bing... maybe I'm too specific
10:42<frosch>you likely cannot find ottd stuff with it
10:42<Wolf01>and I really hate it gives results in one language at time
10:43<Wolf01>for example in bing news I can't add foreign blogs to "my arguments" because they aren't in my language :|
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ever using bing
11:15<kamnet>Bing is mostly alright for what i search for. i mainly use it to earn points to pay for Hulu Plus ad enter contests.
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>what for what what?
11:16<kamnet>Hulu Plus, a TV streaming service.
11:17<supermop_>i like bing for the pretty picture
11:18<supermop_>can't remember last time i actually used it to search for something
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12:17<Katje>HOw do I add new grf's ?
12:17<Katje>oh, I worked it out
12:20<Katje>finally got rid of that error
12:21-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
12:21<Flygon>They're the lifeblood of two games
12:21<Flygon>OpenTTD and Ragnarok Online
12:21<Flygon>And they're both utterly incomprehensible bags of magic to both fanbases
12:21<Flygon>They both take fucking forever to patch
12:22<Flygon>Seriously tho
12:22<Flygon>Holy hell
12:22<Flygon>Patching RO on a 256kbit ADSL line
12:22<Flygon>Thooose were the days
12:22<Flygon>In some ways, I miss 2004
12:22<Flygon>Then I remembered George Bush and Johh Howard were a thing
12:22<Flygon>Also I would've been illegal in multiple US states
12:22<Flygon>Now I'm legal in all of them
12:23<@Alberth>hmm, I started at 2,400 bit/s :)
12:23<Flygon>AND cooperate with the human race peacefully
12:23<Flygon>Alberth: You're probably far older than me
12:23<Flygon>Don't take it negatively, just noting that age barriers exist x3
12:23<Flygon>I started off on 56k in the late 90s
12:23<Flygon>But I was born in the early 90s
12:23<Flygon>I think you were born in the early 80s!
12:24<Flygon>Hyvaa Yota OpenTTD
12:24<@Alberth>oh, did 56kb too for quite some time
12:24<Flygon>And remember
12:24<@Alberth>that's ok, english has no accent either :)
12:30<Katje>wow, I've now got a slight issue with option paralysis...
12:30<Katje>sooo many trains to play with
12:30<frosch>[18:23] <Flygon> I think you were born in the early 80s! <- haha :p
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>who isn't?
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of people i know were born in the early 80s
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>most of my friends and family
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>like, everybody i went to school with was born in the early 80s
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>as well as my siblings and cousins.
12:34<@Alberth>Flygon: only 15 years wrong :)
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>thus by infallible logic, most people in the world must have been born in the early 80s
12:36<frosch>so your siblings locked you into the cellar for years?
12:36<frosch>sounds reaonable
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not austrian...
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14:49<Katje>hy is it hotel's seem hardest of all to demolish ?
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17:32<Katje>With fund new town, what part of the town is the position I click, is that the centre of the new town?
17:32<Katje>or the top left corner or something else?
17:32<Katje>I can't find any mention of this feature in the wiki
17:38<Katje>to answer my own question, it appears to be the middle
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19:38<kamnet>Tornadoes are on the way.
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22:16<Flygon>Alberth: Late 60s?
22:17<ST2>Alberth born in the early 40's but he never shared the youth potion with us ^^
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22:24<Odin>Huh. Updated to NARS 2.5, the issues I was having with it are gone
22:25<Odin>Right now I've got mainline freight handled by Challengers in 14 length trains, and express passenger pulled by 4-4-4-4 duplexes also at 14 length
22:25<Odin>and all trains profitable
22:29<Odin>And now that I think about it, that 4-4-4-4 duplex in NARS is actually the PRR T1, a rigid-frame duplex locomotive prone to violent wheelslip even at speed where most steam engines only face wheel slip when starting a heavy load
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22:59<Flygon>Odin: I thought the wheelslip was due to careless drivers?
23:00<Odin>No, even experienced drivers have it happen from time to time
23:00<Odin>Its really not all that different from a burnout in a modern vehicle- you've applied more torque to the driving wheels than they have the friction to transmit
23:01<Odin>But some engines are more likely to have it happen than others due to weight distribution, engine torque and balance, and rail conditions
23:01<Flygon>I thought the wheelslip issues was due to the fact that the two sets of driving wheels would 'desynchronize'?
23:02<Odin>The difference is where a car it will almost always stop when you let off the throttle, some designs of steam engine you can't close the throttle quickly enough, and even after closing it there is a delay period where the pipes are still full of steam- or the boiler has primed and water turning into steam is in the throttle pipe
23:02<Odin>Duplex and Ariticulated engines have no synchronization between the two engines in the designs I've seen at least
23:03<Flygon>Well, yeah
23:03<Odin>Whereas each driving set is on a rigid axle- left and right cylinders are always 90 degrees apart to guarantee dead-standstill starting torque
23:03<Flygon>That's why the driver had to keep the sync manually
23:03<Odin>If the engines aren't slipping, whatever sync they had would be more or less preserved throughout the run
23:04<Odin>Usually though one engine would break traction and run away, and on the duplex and articulated engines this was much harder to detect and compensate for
23:04<Flygon>I admit I've never tried to drive a duplex myself, soooooo
23:04<Odin>Whereas a single driver steam engine, you could hear the rapid increase in chuffing as a dead giveaway
23:04<Odin>I've never driven steam myself, I'm just an old fan and have spent a fair bit of time studying the matter
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23:05<Odin>Along similar lines, it kinda interests me that locomotives prone to runaway didn't have flyball governors fitted
23:06<Odin>On stationary engines, the flyball governor is used to make sure the engine runs at a constant speed under varable load.
23:06<Flygon>Part of me haas wondered
23:06<Odin>in a locomotive, having such a governor would prevent a runaway from reaching destructive speeds- as it would choke off the engine's steam supply
23:06<Flygon>What'd have happened if we got to the point where we had computer assisted steam locos
23:06<Odin>lol. We might find out.
23:06<Flygon>As in, no fireman, so it used those spiral things to move through coal (like the H-class here)
23:06<Odin>One BIG advantage of steam currently matched by no other prime mover is complete versaility of fuel
23:07<Flygon>Or just plain burned oil/Diesel (like... a LOT of VR stuff)
23:07<Odin>These days a lot of steam excursion engines are fitted for oil
23:07<Flygon>We converted a LOT of stuff to Oil in the 1940s
23:07<Odin>Simplifies the logistics- the engine burns the same oil used by the diesels whose track it shares
23:07<Flygon>To reduce dependancy on coal we had to import from New South Wales
23:07<Odin>Also because there's a shortage of strong-backed young men willing to shovel coal
23:07<Flygon>It was just plain easier for us to make Oil, and later, Diesel, hahaha
23:08<Odin>Usually only stationary steam and small (4-6-0 or smaller) engines are still hand stoked coal
23:08<Odin>I have heard that the engines equipped with self-stokers still require a fireman to manually shovel coal.
23:09<Odin>The auto-stoker doesn't make a very good fire bed, and while it will keep up steam it isn't good enough when cruising
23:09<Odin>The corners of the firebox have to be filled in by hand
23:11<Odin>Kind of funny though to see the PRR T1 in NARS 2.5 though
23:11<Flygon>The only reason the H220 had an auto-stoker here
23:11<Flygon>Is because, quite simply
23:11<Odin>OpenTTD doesn't implement wheelslip other than as a change in sound effect on a hard start
23:11<Flygon>VR determined that based on experience with the Spirit of Progress
23:11<Flygon>It'd be physically impossible to shovel enough coal into H220's firebox to keep it running correctly
23:11<Flygon>I'm not joking.
23:12<Odin>How big of an engine is this?
23:12<Flygon> Meet Australia's largest non-articulated locomotive
23:12<Flygon>And most powerful from the late 1930s until 1995
23:13<Flygon>It was designed with the intent of hauling passenger trains
23:13<Odin>It looks like a 4-8-4 though, what makes it different
23:13<Flygon>Because by that point VR stopped giving a fuck and wanted their passenger trains as rock metal insane as possible
23:13<Odin>Or they wanted to copy a successful design
23:13<Flygon>Unfortunately, it never did get to be a good passenger loco, due to WWII
23:13<Odin>That is strikingly similar to the American 4-8-4 Northern
23:14<Flygon>H220/Heavy Harry was based on the S-class design. I wouldn't be surprised if it took a lot of notes from the American designs of the time tho
23:14<Odin>They're quite the beast
23:14<Flygon>,_November_17,_1937.jpg It's a direct evolution of this
23:15<Flygon>Also a 4-8-4
23:15<Flygon>Wait, no
23:15<Flygon>That one's a 4-6-2
23:15<Odin>UP 844, one of the better known American 4-8-4 engines
23:15<Flygon>Huh, that IS a striking resemblance
23:15<Flygon>Elephant ears and all
23:15<Flygon>I didn't expect to see Elephant ears on an American loco
23:15<Flygon>When was UP 844 designed?
23:16<Odin>She's a late model
23:16<Flygon>Either there's some convergent evolution going on here
23:16<Odin>Also the only one in the world to have continued working for her original owner without ever being retired
23:16<Eddi|zuHause><Odin> Simplifies the logistics- the engine burns the same oil used by the diesels whose track it shares <-- that sounds like a myth to me...
23:16<Flygon>Or VR could somehow afford a phone call to the USA <_>
23:16<Odin>Its probably the manufacturers copying each other just like they do today
23:17<Odin>Eddi, it would be interesting if it wasn't
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>typically, oil-fired steam engines used "bunker oil C", which was the stuff that remained at the bottom after refining out other kinds of fuel like diesel
23:17<Odin>Interesting indeed.
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>until they figured out how to further refine that
23:17<Odin>I would have expected them to run on the same diesel used by the EMD locos in common service, that way they can simply top it off as needed
23:17<Flygon>Oh, that's odd. The S-class wasn't a streamliner for the first 9 years of it's life...
23:17<Odin>Though a loco designed for oil firing probably would specify a grade
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>that, and the oil crisis, made a sudden end to oil powered steam
23:18<Flygon>Ahh, okay
23:18<Odin>Like I had said though, most of your excursion beasts are oil powered
23:18<Odin>In the US at least
23:18<Flygon>Odin: Seems like H220 might've been inspired heavily by the UP 844
23:18<Flygon>H220 got churned out in 1941
23:18<Odin>Yeah, it looks like they shared notes at least
23:18<Odin>It is one of the more successful designs
23:18<Flygon>Which definitely sets the right period for "Copying America"
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: over here, that's usually the other way around. streamliners were built in the late 30s, and after WWII, the streamlining was permanently removed because of maintenance costs
23:19<Flygon>We also tended to copy the USA with regards to Tram designs
23:19<Flygon>Melbourne wanted to use PCC cars, but
23:19<Flygon>We couldn't afford the rights to due to currency conversion problems. Also WWII happened
23:19<Flygon>So we ended up trying to create W-class Trams that imitated some of the PCC's features. eg. extra notches
23:20<Flygon>Granted, 16 different notches is a bit of a far cry from the PCC's 250+ :U
23:20<Flygon>We did, eventually
23:20<Flygon>Create a W-class/PCC hybrid in the 1950s
23:20<Odin>Still can't believe I saw a Loram rail grinder on the Norfolk Southern track near my apartment
23:21<Odin>Also I've seen two of the big boys- 4006 and 4012.
23:21<Flygon>It's the fastest recorded Tram in Australia
23:21<Flygon>Hitting 115km/h in a test run
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>trams are not usually built for speed :p
23:22<Flygon>This also meant it has been recorded going faster than suburban EMUs of the day were allowed to go :B
23:22<Flygon>iirc, tho, the regular speed limit was 80km/h
23:22<Flygon>Eddi: No reason not to have a speedy Tram, tho!
23:22<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: test runs are usually made with 110% top speed
23:22<Flygon>35 is weeelll over 10% of 80km/h :P
23:23<Flygon>I don't know what prevented them going faster
23:23<Odin>Anyone here by chance have pictures of Blue Peter in '92?
23:23<Flygon>Probably the fact that they ran out of track before hitting suburban streets again
23:23<Odin>A wheel slip blew the heads off the engine, supposidly the wheels achieved over 140 MPH
23:24<Flygon>On the T1?
23:24<Odin>No. Blue Peter is one of the British locomotives
23:24<Flygon>Sorry, like I said, not very familiar with non-Victorian rail history x3
23:24<Odin>It had a wheel slip coming into a hill, but the boiler primed and hydrolocked the regulator
23:24<Odin>Cue total runaway with a wide open regulator
23:25<Flygon>(fastest our steam locos officially hit was 160km/h. New South Wales, with the 38xx class series for Sydney-Newcastle runs)
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23:25<Odin>The driver tried to throw the reverse to kill it, the pounding of the engine made the reverse spin back and break his arm
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>none of these sentences make any sense
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23:25<Flygon>(unofficially... I reckon Vic and NSW had locos that could go faster, but... there's no real records of this)
23:25<Odin>I haven't put much attention into trams lol
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's like people talking about wine tasting
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>or WOW
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>or ...
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>they just spew out words, assuming the other person knows what those words mean
23:26<Flygon>(the S-class in Victoria was only suppose to hit 115km/h, but had large enough wheels to quite easily facilitate operation for over 160km/h. The fastest the locos have been recorded going is 148km/h when their paper recorders ran out during a 'Spirit of Progress' run... so naturally they decided to make the train go as fast as possible for shits and gggles)
23:27<Flygon>(this's ONLY known because the drivers themselves recorded it. And they still had to do half the trip well below the intended speed so that the signal boxes wouldn't record them speeding/so they wouldn't be conspicuously early)
23:27<Flygon>(148km/h is an iirc figure... it was somewhere in the 14xkm/h range)
23:28<Odin>A4 Mallard was recorded at 160km/h and holds the record for steam locomotives
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>interesting what passes as "fast" for some people
23:29<Flygon>This is probably part of the reason the H220 has smaller driving wheels, and more of them... to prevent drivers speeding, but also help acceleration anyway :U
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>160 is the top speed over here for conventinal signalling
23:29<Flygon>Not that I don't think entrepeneurial drivers wouldn't have tried for 130km/h+ anyway
23:29<Flygon>Eddi: In current day Victoria, 160km/h is the absolute max, with the VLocity DMUs
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>Odin: the german BR 61 was scheduled with a 160km/h top speed
23:29<Odin>Only if they thought they could get away with it.
23:29<Flygon>And by absolute max, I mean
23:30<Flygon>They still tend to run around 177km/h when behind the timetable
23:30<Flygon>And have, again, unofficially, done 220km/h during test runs on new RFR track :U
23:30<Flygon>Apperantly the main reason for the 160km/h cap is signal sighting issues
23:30<Odin>Oh. Mallard's record is 202.5 km/h officially
23:31<Odin>and 160km/h is just the speed it was capable of.
23:31<Odin>Gotta look these things up every so often or I get the numbers mixed up
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>Odin: that sounds more likely
23:32<Odin>That's off wikipedia
23:32<Flygon>(also, apperantly vibration levels around 200km/h were a tad unpleasent)
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>Odin: iirc, the record was previously held by the german BR 05, for a few weeks or months
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>which went around 201 in a test run
23:33<Odin>Yeah, DRG Class 05 200.4km/h
23:33<Odin>Mallard's run was 2 years after that
23:33<Flygon>(this's exemplified by the fact that, reportedly, during one of the 220km/hish tests, the front apron of the VLo managed to fall off)"
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>ah right
23:34<Flygon>(from the vibrations)
23:34<Eddi|zuHause>probably WWII made a stop to such record runs
23:34<Flygon>I'll play devils advocate here
23:34<Flygon>Mallard hit it's top speed going downhill
23:34<Flygon>DRG 05 hit it's top speed on even land
23:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, of course the british will be cheating in such things :p
23:35<Odin>Yeah, but if you really want to be fair take them both out to the Utah salt flats on a straight perfectly level track that goes for miles
23:35<Odin>Might even find a few american engines that want to go for the goal too
23:35<Flygon>Odin: No need
23:36<Odin>and plenty of rednecks with rocket cars trying to do it without rails
23:36<Flygon>Just use existing HST track
23:36<Flygon>And if we're utterly desperate to try and do a speedrun with 1600mm track.. er... well, I guess Victoria has some straight bits too :U
---Logclosed Sun Apr 26 00:00:49 2015