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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-02

---Logopened Sat May 02 00:00:57 2015
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00:31<kamnet>Android is a pain
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01:07<kamnet>Good morning Eddi|zuHause
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02:38<newbie|2>;C:\NML;C:\TortoiseHg;C:\Python34;C:\MinGW\bin;C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\bin
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03:16<@Alberth>newbie|2: trouble with nml?
03:17<@Alberth>nml is known not to work with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1
03:17<newbie|2>yes
03:17<@Alberth>any other python 3 works, for some weird reason
03:17<newbie|2>compile the make-nmlerror
03:17<@Alberth>try "python --version" at the command line to check the version
03:18<newbie|2>gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
03:18<newbie|2>[GIMP] gfx\terrain.png
03:18<newbie|2>/bin/bash: gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
03:19<@Alberth>what are you compiling?
03:20<newbie|2>oh,,,sorry my is python 3.4.1
03:21<newbie|2>compile make-nml ,,,
03:21<newbie|2>thanks ,Alberth
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03:24<newbie|2>I will try python 3.2
03:25<@Alberth>_V= make <-- use a _V= prefix to disable the nice lines, and get the raw commands that are executed
03:25<@Alberth>at least that makes finding the problem simpler
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03:26<newbie|2>thanks @alberth
03:26<@Alberth>your 'gimp' problems seems to do "gimp" -n -i -b - < gfx/terrain.scm >/dev/null
03:27<@Alberth>which is a file that exists at my system
03:27<newbie|2>gimp is 2.8.4.
03:27<@Alberth>I have 2.8.14
03:28<newbie|2>right,,,my gimp is 2.8.14
03:28<@Alberth>not sure that's the cause, "no such file" is a shell report, not something reported by gimp itself
03:28<newbie|2>oh,,,
03:29<@Alberth>the "<" means that the shell redirects the file data into gimp, gimp itself never accesses the file
03:30<@Alberth>ls gfx <-- gives me png_source_list terrain.png terrain.scm test.xcf
03:33<@Alberth>afk
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03:44<@Alberth>moin
03:44<@Alberth>congrats andy on completing the conversion
03:48<andythenorth>bonsoir
03:48<andythenorth>I cheated a lot :)
03:50-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x5f745185.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
03:51<frosch123>Alberth: the trouble with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1 is only the compilation of the acceleration module
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03:52<frosch123>python enforces a weird CFLAGS combination that disables some C99 funtions
03:54<@Alberth>ok, thanks
03:56*andythenorth wonders what to do next
03:56<andythenorth>refactor the 25 industries where I cheated?
03:56<andythenorth>:P
03:56<andythenorth>eat breakfast?
03:57<frosch123>hmm, roadrunner ai is the main culprit for a lot of 1.5 bug reports :p
03:57<frosch123>the ai didn't change in two years, the bug in ottd is present for 5 years
03:57<frosch123>somehow it got more sensitive to it though :/
03:58<Johnnei>Maybe it needs some polishing after 2 years of gathering dust :p
04:10<andythenorth>hmm
04:10<andythenorth>so FIRS industries use a lot of cbs
04:10<andythenorth>and some of those cbs have multiple switches
04:11<andythenorth>and in some cases, those switches are ~identical for every industry, except for one or two numeric values
04:11<andythenorth>so unifying them is appealing
04:11<andythenorth>am I missing anything that is going to spank my plan?
04:11<@Alberth>eat breakfast while cooking up a cunning firs plan
04:12<andythenorth>breakfast is cooking
04:13<@Alberth>use parameters for those values, trying a small scale experiment, imho
04:14<@Alberth>don't know what nml does in these cases, does it optimize equal switches away? would be nifty if it did
04:16<frosch123>if you reference the same switch name in nml, so will the resulting grf
04:17<frosch123>nml doesn't add optimisation, nor does it remove any, it just translates switches 1:1
04:18<andythenorth>my feeling is that consolidating might drop anything from 60 - 300 switches per cb
04:19<andythenorth>it will be interesting to do one and see if it changes compile time in any interesting way
04:20<andythenorth>I suspect that FIRS eats most time in the _insane_ spritelayouts
04:20<andythenorth>which can’t be consolidated
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05:11*andythenorth kills 87 switches
05:11<andythenorth>saves about 2s on first compile
05:12<andythenorth>saves about 6s on second compile with primed cache
05:12<andythenorth>very low statistical validity for those results :P
05:13<andythenorth>we need a farm of about 100 build nodes
05:13<andythenorth>which time the builds for every commit
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05:35<V453000>andythenorth: how many loading stages look nicest on road vehicles?
05:39<andythenorth>2
05:39<andythenorth>1 is not enough
05:40<andythenorth>3 is a bit overkill
05:41<frosch123>does your 2 mean 3?
05:42<frosch123>empty, somewhat, full?
05:43<andythenorth>yes
05:43<andythenorth>lamposts / gaps
05:43<andythenorth>0, 50%, 100%
05:43<andythenorth>although to make it nice, I would probably do 0, [20-80], 100
05:43<andythenorth>define 5 loading states, but only 3 sprites
05:44<andythenorth>or so
05:44<andythenorth>semantically, I think the sprites say ‘loading’ rather than ‘amount loaded'
05:44<andythenorth>hmm
05:45<andythenorth>every time I make a ‘global’ set of switches, the total pool of available action 2 IDs is reduced?
05:45<andythenorth>might be an unwanted side effect :(
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05:51<V453000>yeah
05:51<V453000>I just thought of that
05:51<V453000>3 sprites, 5 stages
05:55<andythenorth>road hog has no loading states yet, so eh, dunno what that will do
05:55<V453000>@calc 64*3*8*8
05:55<@DorpsGek>V453000: 12288
05:55<V453000>._.
05:55<andythenorth>but probably 3 over 5
05:57<V453000>hm, whenever vehicle is articulated, it cant go to the terminus RV stations, right?
05:57<V453000>even if short
05:58<andythenorth>yup
05:59<andythenorth>got a plan for that?
05:59<andythenorth>o_O
06:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27263 trunk/Makefile.grf.in (2015-05-02 11:59:55 +0200 )
06:00<@DorpsGek>-Doc: nforenum is part of grfcodec for some years.
06:00<V453000>well no, just considering options
06:00<V453000>e.g. I want trucks to have randomized colour of cabins
06:00<V453000>and some random cargo "subtypes" like pigs, cows, ...
06:01<V453000>just wondering if I can reasonably do that without articulation or if my RVs will be hating terminus stations :P
06:01<andythenorth>you can do that without articulation
06:01<andythenorth>just a lot of sprites
06:01<V453000>ye
06:02<V453000>an utter shitload
06:03<andythenorth>RH will do same
06:03<andythenorth>all cargo variation on one spritesheet
06:03<andythenorth>then copy of spritesheet for each color variation
06:03<andythenorth>suits the way I recolour
06:03<andythenorth>you might do it differently :D
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>[02.05.2015 07:07] <kamnet> Good morning Eddi|zuHause <-- you do realize that i scripted my daily reconnect to a time where i'm very probably not awake.
06:11<V453000>I render stuff and do not want to use company colours anymore
06:11<V453000>the recolouring is just broken, cant get it look nice
06:11<V453000>frosch123 said something about redoing the algorithm but lets see how soon can that be done :P
06:14<andythenorth>so what colour cabs would you do?
06:14<andythenorth>if not cc? o_O
06:14<V453000>various colour schemes etc
06:14<V453000>just nice randomness
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06:14<andythenorth>yeah
06:15<V453000>I dont think the player needs CC if they have random colours
06:15<V453000>of course, playing in various companies with various coloured vehicles is nice
06:15<Wolf01>hi o/
06:16<andythenorth>I like CC
06:16<andythenorth>_slightly_ surprised you can’t make it work, but not 100%
06:16<andythenorth>some CC variations just suck, even with pixels
06:16<V453000>I like CC too, but it is just absolutely out of the question for 32bpp
06:16<V453000>yes
06:16<andythenorth>parameter for your own colour schemes?
06:16<V453000>I made a rather elaborate method of 32bpp->CC conversion, using ALL of the possible shades
06:16<V453000>but it just doesnt cut it
06:17<V453000>nah I can make various vehicles, only differing by colour
06:17<V453000>I want to have only like 3 vehicles anyway
06:17<V453000>so a parameter for "random" or "be able to pick your colour" fits in
06:18<V453000>if I make 8 colours, it is just 32 vehicles in the vehicle list with 1 short truck, 1 long truck, 1 short bus, 1 long bus
06:18<V453000>the vehicles can just change power/speed over the years whenever they visit stations I guess
06:18<V453000>autoreplace with RVs is dumb anyway
06:18<andythenorth>interesting approach :P
06:18<andythenorth>hmm
06:18<andythenorth>organic vehicles
06:18<andythenorth>that grow bigger
06:19<V453000>kind of, yes
06:19<V453000>and change sprites in time eras
06:19<V453000>also solves all the bullshit with randomized introduction dates
06:20<V453000>the problem is that 64 cargoes * 3 loading stages * 8 angles * 4 sub-cargoes * 8 vehicle colours is slightly shitload
06:20<V453000>@calc 64*3*8*4*8
06:20<@DorpsGek>V453000: 49152
06:20<V453000>,,,
06:21<V453000>for 1 vehicle
06:21<V453000>I currently have 55 cargoes but yeah
06:22<V453000>I guess I could make less randomness since RVs dont have millions of wagons like trains
06:22<V453000>so that is one way to help it
06:23<V453000>also, short RVs do not need sub-cargoes, perhaps
06:23<V453000>busses do not need most of the stuff
06:24<V453000>well busses are like 1 of the cargoes without loading stages and sub-cargoes
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06:28<andythenorth>buses need Yetis
06:28<andythenorth>with different hats
06:28<V453000>xd
06:29<V453000>yeah
06:34<andythenorth>is OpenTTD’s max date 5000000 or 5000001?
06:34<andythenorth>found both in use in newgrf code
06:34<V453000>I am not going to ask how is that useful? :D
06:34<andythenorth>availability cb
06:34<andythenorth>industries
06:34<andythenorth>also date sensitive graphics
06:36<andythenorth>5000001 causes nmlc to sulk
06:36<andythenorth>so that answers that
06:38<V453000>:)
06:40<@Alberth>afaik at the end of 5000000, you go back to jan 1st of that year
06:41<@Alberth>can't you eliminate the check in that case
06:43<andythenorth>it’s just a proxy for ‘no date is set'
06:43<andythenorth>where ‘None’ has some problems :P
06:43<andythenorth>5000001 looks to be used with < operator
06:44<andythenorth>5000000 with ==
06:44<andythenorth>so that explains that mystery :)
06:46<andythenorth>can haz more permanent storages?
06:51<andythenorth>more permanent storage = more industries sharing cb chains
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try 31.12.5000000 as max date?
07:09<andythenorth>I only need year but yes, thanks :)
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it's probably nmlc being overly pedantinc
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>-n
07:10<andythenorth>as it stands, some people won’t get to build industries after 4999999
07:10<andythenorth>oh well :P
07:10<andythenorth>and it’s not a new bug
07:12<V453000>how terrible
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the internal variables have a bit of room for >5000000 dates, it's just he last "round" number to fit in the range
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so there should be no problems with a grf checking for 5000001
07:13<@Alberth>but any comparison that you do with any number > 5000000 is useless
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, yes, that's kinda the point. pick a number that doesn't do anything, without making it complicated by adding new control structures and stuff
07:17*andythenorth wonders how many storages FIRS industries have free
07:17<andythenorth>nml could probably audit that
07:18<@Alberth>in my view, you need 2 variations for introduction date, and two variations for end-date
07:19<andythenorth>hmm secondary industries only have one storage free :(
07:19<andythenorth>and I need that for a UID
07:22<andythenorth>hmm
07:22*andythenorth wonders about converting FIRS to m4nfo
07:22<andythenorth>or rather, pythonm4nfo
07:28<@Alberth>bbl
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07:30<andythenorth>ho
07:30<andythenorth>maybe I can make partial compiling work for FIRS
07:30<andythenorth>that would be interesting
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07:35<andythenorth>oh, that won’t work :(
07:36<andythenorth>nmlc randomises strings
07:36<andythenorth>nvm
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08:42<andythenorth>MP game? o_O
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09:40<kamnet>Eddi|zuHause: No I didn't realize that. I'm up weird hours anyhow, but I figured you were either busy or sleeping to begin with. :D
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10:16<kamnet>Apparently I missed all the discussion this morning.
10:16<kamnet>I'll probably miss more of it this afternoon when I go into work.
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10:35<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/cloverleafexplain.png Okay. So. I'm explaining to a personal friend of mine how highway interchanges work.
10:35<Flygon>I'm doing an atrocious job of it
10:37<Flygon>Please tell me if this makes proper sense or not x.x
10:39<frosch123>that's dangerous
10:39<frosch123>they all drive on the wrong side
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10:40<frosch123>welcome back :)
10:40<@Alberth>o/
10:42<Flygon>frosch: I wanted to draw it using European/American standards
10:42<Flygon>But
10:42<Flygon>I didn't want to get confused
10:42<Flygon>So I did it using Australian standards
10:42<Flygon>Except cloverleafs don't exist in my state
10:42<Flygon>S
10:42<Flygon>So*
10:42<Flygon>Fuck
10:43<@Alberth>no clovercleafs then :)
10:43<Johnnei>Just a plain old intersection at 120kmh :p
10:43<andythenorth>can’t you just play Euro Truck Simulator to show it?
10:45<Flygon>andythenorth: My Internet is crap and I don't have it installed on Steam
10:46<frosch123>Flygon: or link him to wiki :p http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloverleaf_interchange
10:46<Flygon>It's kinda rude
10:46<Flygon>And is still confusing to explain to someone that, amongst other things
10:46<Flygon>Doesn't have a drivers licence
10:47<frosch123>no french man ever had one
10:47<frosch123>sorry :)
10:47<Flygon>I lack any good French jokes and I got a whopper of a headache
10:48<andythenorth>slow forums are slow
10:48<andythenorth>as in, “not much to read today”
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10:51<Wolf01>we started to build roundabouts under the bridge instead of using cloverleaves
10:52<Flygon>Doesn't work if they're both freeways
10:52<Flygon>Anyway
10:52<Flygon>I'm just... fucked
10:52<Flygon>Night, bros
10:52<frosch123>Flygon: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahnkreuz#/media/File:High_Five.jpg <- just tell him that split before join is way better
10:52<@Alberth>nigh Flygon
10:53<Flygon>Already sent that one
10:53*Flygon closes lid
10:54<andythenorth>hrm
10:54<andythenorth>refactoring is starting to drag :P
10:54*andythenorth has been cleaning house for days on FIRS code
10:56<@Alberth>already made a plan for decorating the new house?
10:56<andythenorth>only partially
10:56<andythenorth>hoping I might get some help :)
10:57<andythenorth>I want to change how clustering works
10:57<andythenorth>it’s failing for some map sizes and/or some economies
11:08<@Alberth>hmm, entire screenshot forum seems filled with pictures of small rural villages :)
11:08<@Alberth>with a central station thrown in here and there
11:10*andythenorth browses
11:11<frosch123>https://xkcd.com/920/ <- like that?
11:11<@Alberth>something like that :)
11:12<andythenorth>hm
11:13<andythenorth>is DB set and stations mandatory?
11:13<andythenorth>all screenshots seem to feature those grfs
11:13<@Alberth>if you're from Germany, definitely
11:13<frosch123>maybe they are from 2005
11:14<frosch123>anyway, i literally do not know the people in the off-topic section
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11:14<frosch123>it's like a on a different planet
11:21<andythenorth>is it as odd as #tycoon?
11:23<frosch123>likely, not sure whether it is the same
11:24<frosch123>i recall someone getting offended when i said that #tycoon is the channel of the forum off-topic gang :)
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11:26<andythenorth>MP game? o_O
11:26*andythenorth is very bored of refactoring FIRS
11:27<frosch123>would need someone to make a savegame, and someone to run a server :p
11:27<andythenorth>are you volunteering? o_O
11:28<frosch123>no
11:28<frosch123>i wanted to play with yeti, but still haven't managed to play even a few minutes with it :p
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11:28<andythenorth>MP needs a GS imo
11:30*andythenorth wonders how Busy Bee works in MP
11:30<frosch123>i don't think it works well
11:31<frosch123>sounds like it would need a lot of coordination
11:31<frosch123>trying to connect the same things in parallel doesn't work well
11:33<frosch123>could work with skype, but i don't have that :p
11:33<frosch123>or teamspeak, does that still exist?
11:34<frosch123>but well, usually my audio channel is occupied by metal
11:34<frosch123>no space for talking :p
11:34<andythenorth>also there’s no big goal
11:34<andythenorth>I’ve played a few ‘no goal’ games in MP
11:34<andythenorth>but mostly I get bored and build silly things
11:34<andythenorth>like castles
11:35<frosch123>well, if you don't share a goal, it's hardly playing cooperative :p
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11:42<andythenorth>I need to make some kind of ‘conquer the west’ GS
11:42<andythenorth>but I have enough to do :)
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12:31<@Alberth>build a common connected world but each in his own company?
12:31<andythenorth>hmm
12:31<andythenorth>networked goals?
12:31<andythenorth>one company delivers, another collects? o_O
12:36<@Alberth>as long as everybody has a few lines to get money from, it should work
12:37<andythenorth>hmm
12:38<andythenorth>we could track a delivery goal, and use it to trigger a collection goal
12:38<andythenorth>have two teams
12:38<andythenorth>delivery team tries to overwhelm collection team
12:39<andythenorth>collection team tries to stay ahead :)
12:39<andythenorth>or split, both teams deliver and collect, but for different cargos or industries
12:40<@Alberth>different parts of the map
12:41*andythenorth wonders why sawmills cluster near forests
12:41<andythenorth>found a few odd location checks in FIRS code as I refactor ;P
12:41<@Alberth>or you are allowed to deliver or accept cargo at some industry, but not both
12:42<andythenorth>does competitive MP work?
12:42*andythenorth has never tried
12:43<andythenorth>anyway, it’s an idea :)
12:47<kamnet>Infrastructure Sharing patch makes much of this quite easy. :D
12:47<@Alberth>depends on how friendly 'competitive' is
12:48<@Alberth>kamnet: we don't really need separate companies, it's a sort of by-product of fixing a game script problem
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12:49<andythenorth>?
12:51<@Alberth>having several companies fixes the problem of discussion who does what
12:53<andythenorth>ha yes :)
12:57*andythenorth has eaten more greens
12:58<andythenorth>more is refactored
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13:08<andythenorth>@seen DanMacK
13:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <DanMacK> And if you start a new game, save it and reload it, does it freeze too?
13:17<kamnet>In playing some of my games, I use IS for companies to take on certain roles - one company manages only rail infrastructure, one only builds roads. One company handles all mail, one handles all rail passengers, one handles all freight transport, etc.
13:18<frosch123>that's also what the old subsidiaries patch did
13:18<frosch123>but you could just as well implement liveries for groups
13:20<kamnet>I did it that wa to take advantage of AIs For example a road building AI to do just roads, there's an Ai that only delivers mail, one that only does passengers via airplanes, etc.
13:21<andythenorth>can’t they play in the same company?
13:21<andythenorth>o_O
13:21*andythenorth has never played IS, but also never understood the point
13:22<kamnet>No, you can only run one AI per company
13:22<andythenorth>ah
13:23<kamnet>I like companies being semi-autonomous, I can start building a rail line on one part of a map, and after a few years I'm bored with it ready to do something else, I've got infrastructure already set up on the rest of the map to immediately jump into
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>i played a 4 company single player game once
13:24<kamnet>And I don't really like dealing with mail or passengers, its too tedious, it's mostly just growth and more growth and more growth. If an AI can manage that transport for me, I'm fine. :D
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>each company serving one region, with interconnection points
13:25<@Alberth>kamnet: just ignore pax :)
13:25<kamnet>You can't if you're using a citybuilder script :D
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few shortcomings in the implementation, but i think the overall concept of IS is desireable
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13:31<kamnet>Yep, a few, but overall I've found it to be a really useful patch
13:32<@Alberth>why are you running a city builder then?
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13:33<andythenorth>ugh
13:33*andythenorth just invented an evil
13:33<andythenorth>to solve a FIRS problem
13:34<@Alberth>you made a pact with the devil?
13:35<andythenorth>I have a problem because FIRS has 66 industries, when the limit is 64 :P
13:35<andythenorth>this causes…problems…with cb handling in action 3 blocks
13:35<@Alberth>sounds likely to be a problem indeed :)
13:36<andythenorth>so give each industry a UID in persistent storage, route all industry cbs through a switch which reads the UID, and dispatches to the correct following switch for that industry
13:37<andythenorth>what could be simpler? :P
13:37<andythenorth>I even have one persistent storage left free
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13:41<@Alberth>hmm, giving it a fixed number, and then skipping initialization in some economy couldn't work?
13:42<@Alberth>although it doesn't re-use switches, as each industry is separate then, I guess
13:43<andythenorth>there was some problem that keeps tripping me up with action 3, can’t remember what
13:43<frosch123>you could also just read the industry type from the existing variable
13:43<frosch123>no need to store it yourself
13:43<andythenorth>type = id?
13:43<frosch123>yes
13:43<andythenorth>0-63?
13:43<frosch123>yes
13:43<andythenorth>I’m already overlapping them
13:44<frosch123>your fault :p
13:44<andythenorth>yes
13:44*andythenorth checks docs
13:44<andythenorth>action 2 can’t be action 7ed
13:45<andythenorth>but action 3 can
13:45<andythenorth>there was some problem when I tried it last time though
13:45<frosch123>as if there was need to :p
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27264 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-05-02 19:45:18 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:46*andythenorth wonders what the problem(s) were
13:47<frosch123>there is no need to skip action2, you can chain to another action2 anyway
13:47<andythenorth>maybe I am conflating multiple problems
13:48*andythenorth reads the commits that fixed the bugs before
13:51<andythenorth>hmm, maybe action 7 on the action 3 fixes that actual issue I ran into
13:51<andythenorth>which is mostly done now
13:51<andythenorth>the action 2 stuff might be a distraction
13:57<andythenorth>any reason the industry type (id) can’t change between economies (action 7-ed)?
13:57<andythenorth>then I can allocate ids dynamically
13:57<andythenorth>(at compile time)
13:58<andythenorth>eh? NML spec says “Industry IDs are local to the NewGRF, you are free to choose any ID in the 0..255-range”
13:58<andythenorth>since when?
14:02<frosch123>2006 or something
14:03<frosch123>ah, wait, i see what you read there
14:03<andythenorth>I am misunderstanding the spec?
14:03<frosch123>but no, that is wrong :)
14:03<frosch123>static const IndustryType NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES_PER_GRF = 64; ///< maximum number of industry types per NewGRF
14:04<frosch123>there are 256 tiles, 64 industries
14:04<andythenorth>typo
14:04<andythenorth>copy-paste?
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14:05<@Alberth>all of them?
14:05<frosch123>likely copy paste
14:06<frosch123>it's 256 for stations, houses, industry tiles, objects and airport tiles :)
14:06<frosch123>64 for industry, 32 for cargo, 128 for airprots, 16 for railtypes
14:07<frosch123>btw, nml prints that to the console :p
14:08<andythenorth>64/64 here ;)
14:08<andythenorth>it has no way to account for people like me
14:08<kamnet>Does this mean Andy needs a FIRS Add-On NewGRF? :D
14:09<frosch123>don't make it even more complicated :p
14:09<frosch123>anyway, the ottd limit is no particulary hard limit to raise :s
14:09<kamnet>MOAR POWER
14:10<frosch123>could as well increase it to 256
14:10<andythenorth>frosch123: or I could engineer an insane compile for FIRS?
14:10<andythenorth>that shuffles IDs around per economy
14:10<andythenorth>which is better?
14:10<andythenorth>o_O
14:14<andythenorth>is there any gameplay benefit to pinning max industries to 64?
14:14<frosch123>a useable minimap :p
14:14<kamnet>Limits bug reports to devs?
14:14<frosch123>i still don't get how anyone can play with 16 railtypes
14:14<andythenorth>FIRS has been developed since 2008, and the biggest economy is 51 industries
14:15<andythenorth>really, it would be hard to add more
14:15<andythenorth>the cargo limit (which should stay at 32) limits the number of industries
14:15<frosch123>cargo limit is quite hard to increase :)
14:15<andythenorth>good
14:15<andythenorth>so 256 industries? o_O
14:16<frosch123>industry tile limit is also hard to increase
14:16<andythenorth>that’s workable with cbs anyway
14:16<andythenorth>solved problem
14:16<frosch123>though we support 512 in total
14:16<kamnet>Its easier when one railtype is pipes, another railtype is electric lines, two of the railtypes are "planning" and "useless" tracks... ;)
14:16<andythenorth>256 industries, 256 tiles, one per industry :D
14:17<frosch123>you can also use 1 tile for all industries
14:17<andythenorth>that is…harder
14:17<frosch123>the tileid only matters if you use animation and such
14:17<andythenorth>acceptance?
14:17<frosch123>yeah, acceptance is also easier with tiles
14:17<frosch123>well, generally, layouts are easier with tiles :)
14:18<andythenorth>hmm CB 2B and 2C would handle acceptance
14:18<andythenorth>universal tile :P
14:19<frosch123>using callbacks affects performance
14:20<andythenorth>:)
14:21<@peter1138>Ban then.
14:21<@peter1138>*them
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14:45<andythenorth>so how trivial is it to do 256?
14:45<frosch123>mainly savegame conversion
14:45*andythenorth tests nml for checks
14:45<frosch123>otherwise just two constants
14:46<andythenorth>nmlc has a check, but that’s easy to patch
14:46<frosch123>that's also just a constant :)
14:46<andythenorth>I assume renum will be similar
14:46<frosch123>noone cares about renum
14:47<andythenorth>ha
14:48<frosch123>ah, there are some special values for industries
14:48<frosch123>so likely we would only raise it to 250, or maybe 128 just for the nice number
14:49<frosch123>for similar reason there are also only 128 airports :)
14:50<Eddi|zuHause><kamnet> MOAR POWER <-- wasn't that show like 15 years ago?
14:50<frosch123>actually, the special values are in no conflict
14:50<frosch123>so, 256 it is
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so you have a patch by tomorrow?
14:51<frosch123>if i cannot sleep
14:52*andythenorth could patch nmlc :P
14:53<andythenorth> dfghjkfghjkl xw345tgfyuiop[‘? nbgt123467890saq2345thbcdr678ol., esdfrhyjuiklop;[']\
14:53<frosch123>value 0xFF will be special for purchase list and stuff
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>your rot13 is broken
14:53<frosch123>andythenorth: cleaning your keyboard? or dropping the whole thing? :p
14:58<andythenorth>dunno :)
14:58<andythenorth>was afk
14:58<andythenorth>I suspect a child
14:58<andythenorth>or my keyboard controller has water in it
14:59<frosch123>the characters describe a one or two finger swipe over the keyboard :)
14:59<andythenorth>could that pattern be made by dropping a pair of glasses on the keyboard? o_O
14:59*andythenorth experiments
14:59<Wolf01>maybe the cat
14:59<andythenorth>no
14:59<andythenorth>that just results in needing new glasses
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15:00*andythenorth only needed glasses this year
15:00<andythenorth>blame the pixels
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>you should probably learn how to kid-proof your computer (e.g. locking your sessions with a password)
15:06<frosch123>pff, the kids will remember the password better than him
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i was about to say that. assume your kids are better at passwords than you are :p
15:07<andythenorth>screen usually locks
15:07<andythenorth>very short lockout time for infosec reasons
15:07<andythenorth>also I usually lock it when I walk away
15:07<andythenorth>then have to type a very long password to unlock :(
15:07<andythenorth>which I usually get wrong
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15:11<kamnet>Thankfully I do nothing which requires national security to lock my keyboard.
15:22<kamnet>Eddi|zuHause: It was on the air when I was still a kid. early 90s? Now I gota look
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>kamnet: i think it was more late 90s/early 2000s
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>kamnet: early 90s was roseanne and bundys
15:23<kamnet>Wikipedia: Home Improvement is an American television sitcom starring Tim Allen, that aired from September 17, 1991 to May 25, 1999.
15:24<kamnet>Roseanne is an American sitcom that was broadcast on ABC from October 18, 1988, to May 20, 1997.
15:25<kamnet>Married... with Children is an American sitcom that aired on FOXfrom April 5, 1987, to June 9, 1997
15:25<kamnet>So all around the same time period.
15:43<frosch123>i thought you were like 10 years older than me :p
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>kamnet: ok, maybe series just come 5 years later here :p
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16:06<kamnet>I was born in 1976. I've always assumed I'm older than most people here.
16:07<frosch123>ok, so i was not that wrong
16:08<frosch123>but then you were no kid in the late 90s :p
16:10<andythenorth>2 years apart from andythenorth
16:10<andythenorth>but I’m not saying which way
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16:38<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
16:38<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 28 minutes and 50 seconds ago: <andythenorth> but I’m not saying which way
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16:39<frosch123>making a little dance? :p
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16:41<DanMacK>wtf... lol
16:41-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-166-178-126.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
16:41<DanMacK>Connection issues Andy?
16:42-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-166-178-126.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
16:42<DanMacK>apparently... lol
16:43-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-166-178-126.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
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16:44<frosch123>or it's the todler again :)
16:45-!-Celestar [~Celestar@p4FC54C7B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:45<DanMacK>lol
16:49-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-166-178-126.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
16:50<andythenorth>hmm
16:51<andythenorth>flappy
16:51<andythenorth>DanMacK: o/
16:52<kamnet>frosch123: No I wasn't a kid in the late 90s. but I was in the early 90s. :D
16:52<DanMacK>Hey Andy
16:53<andythenorth>lo
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17:35-!-mczapkie [~mczapkie@abdy146.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
17:35<mczapkie>Good evening
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17:48<Supercheese>has anyone here actually used m4nfo? I've been debating trying it out for quite some time for stations and would solicit opinions should there be any
17:49<frosch123>haha, that's the main issue with it :p
17:49<frosch123>noone is using it, except a few people behind closed doors
17:49<Supercheese>well, it allegedly does support stations which NML does not
17:49<frosch123>you can literally ask noone, and look at no examples, except the original documentation
17:49<Supercheese>and if the code is actually human-readable unlike raw NFO that would be nice
17:50<frosch123>well, noone knows that :)
17:51<Supercheese>I feel like the cyclops... Nobody is using it
17:52<Supercheese>that darn Nobody
17:52<frosch123>anyway, grf are a complicated thing
17:52<frosch123>stations are complicated in particular
17:53<frosch123>the isr author is likely the only one who really know it
17:53<Supercheese>Indeed, they seem more challenging
17:53<frosch123>about m4nfo, i very much doubt it does help you whatsoever with a isr-level of grf
17:54<frosch123>it's developed by an artist, not by a programmer
17:54<frosch123>so, i would be surprised if it supports anything like advanced spritelayouts
17:56<Supercheese>well I'd try just adding some single-tile non-track station bits first
17:56-!-myztic [~feijfoeis@0002010f.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:56<frosch123>well, the trend is to do those with objects :p
17:57<frosch123>objects work everywhere, for all station types
17:57<Supercheese>I already can do that, but I would like them to actually contribute to catchment
17:57<Supercheese>eyecandy but also functional
17:57<frosch123>the only thing that they do not support is showing cargo matching the cargo waiting at the station
17:57<frosch123>but that in itself is one of the most controverse thing
17:58<frosch123>i thought not being limited by the catchment area was a feature :)
17:59<Supercheese>I am very fond of building a large passenger train station nearby but past the outskirts of a city and ctrl+joining several eyecandy station tiles to it spread throughout the city
18:00<Supercheese>many station sets offer good tiles for that, but I have the itch to add some of my own
18:00<frosch123>ok, i hate doing that :p
18:00<frosch123>i love feeder services
18:00<frosch123>and trams delivering stuff to the rail stations
18:00<frosch123>or, busses in case of passengers
18:02<frosch123>[23:49] <Supercheese> and if the code is actually human-readable unlike raw NFO that would be nice <- it's based on a macro processor, i would expect that it has about zero error messages and validity checks
18:02<frosch123>if something fails to compile, you will just have to stare at the code
18:03<frosch123>anyway, if you try it, please report back :) because, as said, noone knows anything about it :)
18:04-!-DanMacK [~3265a604@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
18:04<DanMacK>Hey all
18:05<frosch123>you were here before, weren't you :p
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18:05<mczapkie>Hello, DanMack. I just put some snow on your logging camp :)
18:05<DanMacK>What are you talking about? Never been here in my life... lol
18:05<DanMacK>Awesome!
18:05<Supercheese>:P
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18:24<mczapkie>Does anybody know, how to change account data on flyspray? There is "data from central management system" info, but central management system is under construction permanently
18:26<frosch123>afaik there is only recover password
18:26<frosch123>but no way to change email or name or anything
18:26<Supercheese>Oh neat: http://www.ttdpatch.de/grfspecs/m4nfoManual/StationsTut.html
18:26<Supercheese>I don't recall there being a tutorial last I checked
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18:49<Supercheese>ugh, my OS won't recognize any updates to its system path variable
18:49<Supercheese>bloody thing probably wants a restart
18:50<+michi_cc>If OS means linux/bash or so, try rehash instead.
18:50<Supercheese>Windows 7 sadly
18:51<+michi_cc>Or actually just hash, it seems bash it the odd one out here :p
18:51<+michi_cc>Then you just need to open a new command window.
18:52<Supercheese>Yeah, not working
18:53<Supercheese>something somewhere is going horribly wrong
18:54<Supercheese>the path variable is correct in the registry, but new command windows do not recognize it
18:55<Supercheese>they are evidently loading some older version of the var
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19:01<kamnet>The Run for the Roses is over.
19:02<Supercheese>yeah Windows demands a reboot to reload system variables... bleh
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19:05<kamnet>If running Window, when we say rehash, we mean by using a chainsaw.
19:10<Wolf01>'night
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20:19<luaduck>is there a reason why we don't have a cvar for disabling road reconstruction?
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>is "we have too many settings" enough?
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20:37<Supercheese>more like "way too damn many settings, especially if you include the .cfg-only settings; but hey users do love their settings"
20:39<+glx>cfg only are modifiable in console :)
20:47<Supercheese>or, well, by editing the .cfg in your text editor of choice
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21:46<Flygon>To be fair
21:46<Flygon>Having the Road Reconstruction thing exist is pretty frustrating
21:48<DarkenMoon>It's annoying when people new to the game use it, thinking it helps cities grow. So they keep using it over and over, spamming the news ticker.
21:51<Flygon>Aye
21:52<Flygon>If we're that terrified over the whole settings thing
21:52<Flygon>Why not
21:52<Flygon>Make it a variable adjustable by NewGRF
21:52<Flygon>So that NewGRFs can add the setting inside the NewGRF settings for what happens if you click "Road Reconstruction"
21:52<Flygon>Or if the Road Recon. setting even exists
21:53<Flygon>Because clearly the solution to the Too Many Settings problem
21:53<Flygon>Is to create more convoluted ways to access the settings
21:53<Flygon>Peace out, bros
21:53*Flygon goes shopping
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22:17<DarkenMoon>You can never have enough settings.
22:17<DarkenMoon>The more customization the better/
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23:35<TartarusMkII>Hi guys, wanted to know if anyone could direct me to any screen shots of nice rail layouts? Just for inspiration? <
23:35<TartarusMkII><3* bleh
23:41<Sylf>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive Almost 300 screenshots from past 9 years of playing
23:43<TartarusMkII>These are replays?
23:44<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/bridgemaster2.png This isn't rail, but do you like Bridges?
23:45<TartarusMkII>oh wow that's very cool to see
23:45<TartarusMkII>I love the 'elevated' rail through the middle like that too haha
23:45<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2041cloverleaf.png All my good shots are road shots x.x
23:46<TartarusMkII>oh that looks gorgeous!
23:46<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2020hellabigmetropolis.png
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23:49<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottddenvercomplex.png
23:49<TartarusMkII>What are the box like things extending from the city out over the tracks?
23:50<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottdquadcomplete.png
23:50<TartarusMkII>They look like walk ways for passengers, but how do they work in OTTD?
23:50<TartarusMkII>And thanks again for these, fantastic
23:50<Flygon>Oh
23:50<Flygon>They're part of a custom GRF
23:50<Flygon>I wish I completed any of these games
23:50<TartarusMkII>I figured they were, but I am curious
23:51<Flygon>Oh wow, my Dropbox has some really random junk
23:52<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/pecoshiningsheet.png I should really get a goahead on that ROM hack someday, for the lulz
23:52<TartarusMkII>hehe
23:53<Flygon>You've played RO?
23:53<TartarusMkII>What I am trying to figure out is the most (basic) efficient way to set up stations to pick up materials and then have them join a double (two way) rail line to a place to drop it off. Like, a bunch of iron ore to a foundry for example.
23:54<TartarusMkII>I want the stations that collect the ore to basically join the artery, and not have to be a part of it directly.
23:54<TartarusMkII>I know I have to use a tunnel or bridge to cross over, but I'm having trouble designing it for some reason lol
23:55<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/qrttstreetrun.jpg I request this as official OTTD feature
23:55<Flygon>Tartarus: Oh
23:55<Flygon>That's easy
23:55<TartarusMkII>Yea I am still a newbling
23:55<Flygon>Er, wait
23:55<Flygon>Yeah
23:55<Flygon>You just build a bridge over
23:56<TartarusMkII>Also looking for the most efficint way to build the station and its buffer
23:56<Flygon>And whatever you do
23:56<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/cloverleafexplain.png Don't use this for reference
23:56<TartarusMkII>Doesn't that only work with cars anyway
23:56<TartarusMkII>?
23:56<TartarusMkII>Hmm, but why do you suggest not doing a clover leaf?
23:57<Flygon>Because I drew it really badly
23:57<TartarusMkII>oh it looks fine!
23:57<TartarusMkII>Just trying to understand the part in the upper right
23:57<Flygon>Uuuh
23:57<Flygon>Try not to x.x
23:57<TartarusMkII>hahah
23:57<Flygon>Anyway! Uhm
23:57<Flygon>For an efficient station
23:58<Flygon>Do you know what roll on, roll out is?
23:58<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/england1921london.png Also random beauty shot
23:58<TartarusMkII>Yea that's usually what I do, but still looking for an ideal amount of tracks, length, and the position of everything.
23:58<Flygon>Well
23:58<TartarusMkII>oh this is great thanks
23:58<Flygon>In terms of capacity
23:58<Flygon>RoRo is the best you really can get
23:59<Flygon>One track flowing into 2 platforms, and then merging back into one track
23:59<Flygon>There's obvious extensions to this
23:59<TartarusMkII>mhmm
23:59<Flygon>But the basic philosophy doesn't chage
23:59<Flygon>change, even
---Logclosed Sun May 03 00:00:36 2015