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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-03

---Logopened Sun May 03 00:00:36 2015
---Daychanged Sun May 03 2015
00:00<TartarusMkII>Does your mod for stations add, or replace stations?
00:01<TartarusMkII>I am using a bunch of openGFX+ things, but no station, also that industry one.. er.. let me look.
00:01<TartarusMkII>Do you recall what you're using for stations? looks so kewl.
00:01<TartarusMkII>oh thats a good pic.
00:01<Flygon>Dutch Stations (and addons)
00:02<TartarusMkII>I'm using FIRS industry, NUTS unrealistic trains (still unsure if I like it) and then OpenGFX+ trees, airports, landscape, and trains for the hell of it.
00:02<TartarusMkII>Would you care to suggest an OpenGFX+ train set? I'm interested in balance mostly.
00:03<Flygon>I use the 2CC Trainset
00:04<TartarusMkII>What is it like? Also, why did you lay out roads that way? To cities sprawl out along your specifications? The wiki makes it sound as if, if you don't make roads exactly how they would plan to, they just don't continue?
00:05<Flygon> I ended up switching to qbBittorrent <_>
00:05<Flygon>I lay them that way because it's easier for me
00:05<Flygon>I disable towns growing their roads normally
00:05<Flygon>It'd be neat to do a 16 player OTTD game of that USA map
00:05<TartarusMkII>nice windows95 theme lol
00:05<Flygon>With additional towns put in
00:06<Flygon>Where one of the 16 players essentially acts as the Federal Government
00:06<Flygon>So that guy builds the roads :B
00:06<TartarusMkII>haha that's a cool idea
00:06<Flygon>Win2K theme actually
00:06<TartarusMkII>so if they don't build their own roads, how do they expand? do they depend on you?
00:06<Flygon> I love my Dropbox :D
00:06<Flygon>Well... think of it this way
00:06<Flygon>Government guy has Magic Bulldozer powers
00:06<TartarusMkII>haha precarious as hell
00:07<Flygon>I didn't get much further on my idea than that
00:07<Flygon> So instead have a cute pic
00:08<TartarusMkII>Awr so fuzzy
00:08<TartarusMkII>but even in the normal game, if you disable towns building their own roads, how d'they expand?
00:09<Flygon>You build the roads!
00:09<TartarusMkII>that's interesting
00:09<Flygon>I'd love a USA scenario, actually
00:09<Flygon>Or Australia scenario
00:09<TartarusMkII>so in theory then, even if they can build their own roads, if you add onto them, they will expand buildings outwards normally?
00:09<Flygon>That basically starts from when the countries were colonized by the Europeans
00:10<Flygon>Tart: I think so
00:10<Flygon>And,... yeah, But the big issue with such a scenario is the lack of ability for scenario scripts to found towns
00:10<Flygon>Also the lack of pre-1700 NewGRFs
00:11<TartarusMkII>I'd make a futuristic set, as if corporations are settling a new island created from a volcano or some such. Planes could be sci fi and serve different purposes, helis too, all sorts of weird stuf like that.
00:11<kamnet>Nobody watching the fight of the century?
00:12<TartarusMkII>Don't you have to pay to see it? or nah?>
00:12<kamnet>Well in theory, you do.
00:13<TartarusMkII>XD I see
00:13<kamnet>However, I have a very strict policy of never paying for anything that Floyd Mayweather, Jr. does.
00:14<Flygon>I'm actually a Flygon irl
00:14<Flygon>And lemme tell you
00:14*Supercheese uses a Master Ball. Flygon was caught!
00:14<Flygon>They tried to get me to join fighting
00:14<kamnet>I will pay to see fighters. I will never pay to see a coward who beats women.
00:14<Flygon>But I'm too peaceful for that stuff
00:15<Flygon>Supercheese: Nice try
00:15<Flygon>I captured myself!
00:15<Flygon>And now I can't be recaught
00:15<Flygon>And then I ate the Pokeball
00:15*Supercheese edits his savegame with pokesav
00:15<Supercheese>what now?
00:16<Supercheese>reminds me of that one whiscash, ate the damn master ball
00:16<Supercheese>was like, wtf
00:16<Supercheese>where did that random dude get a master ball anyhow
00:16<Flygon>That was my cousin
00:17<Flygon>Oh, he won it in the lottery
00:17<Supercheese>wow, on in a billion chance
00:18<TartarusMkII>I'm not sure if I am looking at the right"2cc" set.
00:18<TartarusMkII>Is it TrainsInNML?
00:18<TartarusMkII>And anyone else have reccomendations for train sets?
00:19<Supercheese>UKRS or NARS
00:19<Supercheese>both excellent
00:19<Supercheese>UKRS also has an addon set
00:20<TartarusMkII>How's the balance on UKRS?
00:20<TartarusMkII>oh, and is it OpenGFX+?
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00:27<TartarusMkII>No Russian city names!
00:29<Supercheese>There's a newgrf for that on Bananas
00:30<Supercheese>Online Content service
00:30<Supercheese>Newgrf options -> Check online content
00:31<Supercheese>use the search box and put in "Russian"
00:31<TartarusMkII>oh, it's named Bananas? lol
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00:37<Supercheese>"Base graphics/sound And Newgrfs And Noais And Scenarios"
00:37<Supercheese>terribly contribed, but most cool acronyms are
00:37<TartarusMkII>That's awesome!
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00:38<TartarusMkII>Tloo-Zaraza's Russian Town Names contains over 3,000 names? But the unsigned Belarusian has 206. I wonder why? XD
00:55<TartarusMkII>A good deal of the mods I downloaded simply do not work, or have nullified parameters
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00:56<Supercheese>A couple are outdated and broken
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00:56<Supercheese>but most should be functional
00:57<TartarusMkII>Well for example, the Russian Town Names NewGRF does not have any parameters to set, and it doesn't seem to change anything..
00:57<TartarusMkII>It seems simply benign. It carries no instructions, or a forum thread 'r anything..
00:57<TartarusMkII>and I was wrong about what I said before, this little GRF is the only one that does not seem to work
01:04<kamnet>Town Name sets work by first loading the NewGRF before you start the game, and then going into Game Settings and selecting the language. The NewGRF will always be the very first entry, above the "---" and the rest of the languages underneath the bar
01:04<Supercheese>Load the town name grf, then go to Game Options and set the town names there, then generate a new game
01:07<TartarusMkII>Hm, I don't see that.. Do I have to be in a game first?..
01:07<kamnet>No, from main menu
01:07<TartarusMkII>Let me restart the game, maybe
01:08<kamnet>I just loaded it, in Game Options you will have a choice of "Russian (Real and Generated, Cyrillic)", "Russian (real, Cyrillic)" and "Russian (real, Latin)"
01:08<TartarusMkII>Nah.. in my NewGRF settings, this mod is included in the list of active NewGRFs
01:08<TartarusMkII>Oh okay now it works, it took a restart and viewing the newGRF settings. Thanks!
01:09<kamnet>You have to load it in active newgrfs first from the main menu, then load which version you want from game options
01:09<TartarusMkII>Ah damn, the city names are just all ???'s.
01:09<Supercheese>need to set a Cyrillic font probably
01:09<TartarusMkII>How am I to know what font I need? I already know I can see Cyrillic on this PC..
01:10<TartarusMkII>Is that to say the whole game needs to be set to RU?
01:10<Supercheese>probably <YourUsername>\Documents\Openttd\openttd.cfg if you are on Windows
01:10<Supercheese>that will have your font options
01:10<Supercheese>be sure to close the game first before opening that file
01:10<TartarusMkII>oh wait , no
01:10<TartarusMkII>That's not the issue. I went back to Game Options, and the Town Names is (Undefined String)
01:11<TartarusMkII>Like, the RU names as a NewGRF is not 'staying'
01:12<TartarusMkII>I moved it up in the list, but it still does not work.
01:13<TartarusMkII>Going back, it is undefined again.
01:21<kamnet>are you loading the newgrf from the main menu, or within the game?
01:21<TartarusMkII>main menu
01:23<kamnet>Okay, I can verify the issues
01:23<TartarusMkII>I'm trying some other similar GRFs too
01:24<kamnet>Cyrillic is loading ???, Latin works. But if you quit the game and start a new one, it goes all wonky again and Game Options changes to "Undefined"
01:24<kamnet>Going back into newgrf settings, saving the configuration again, and then going back into Game Options restores it
01:24<kamnet>I'm guessing the NewGRF is broken.
01:24<TartarusMkII>Makes sense, thanks for double checking.
01:25<Supercheese>you could try changing fonts:
01:25<TartarusMkII>I can't read full on Russian, so my game's localization must stay in Eng
01:25<TartarusMkII>if that matters =v
01:25<kamnet>Okay then you'll want to select Latin
01:26<TartarusMkII>Also, how do I delete NewGRFs?
01:26<Supercheese>^ that
01:26<TartarusMkII>But doesn't it still reset when you go in and out of the game?
01:26<TartarusMkII>the Ukranian one does not work either, I have a feeling it has to do with fonts and not the GRFs
01:26<kamnet>Yes. But my solution fixes it.
01:27<TartarusMkII>I notice it's losing all of the town names, not just the one that didn't work.. let me try your solution.
01:28<kamnet>You're right, it is doing that on all town name newgrfs
01:29<TartarusMkII>I think some of these -are- old, though. Err, if not all of them..
01:31<kamnet>It's doing it with new town names that I've made straight from NML's town names template.
01:31<kamnet>I don't think it's the NewGRFs, unless the spec has changed and they're all missing somethign now.
01:32<TartarusMkII>By the way, what is a reasonable max map height?
01:32<TartarusMkII>I've read that snow is supposed to form at heights, but i never see it..
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01:59<kamnet>I set mine at 255. You can set snow line height to whatever you like.
02:00<Flygon>I do kinda wish we had heightmaps for water
02:00<Flygon>As in
02:00<Flygon>127 is the 'ground level' height
02:00<TartarusMkII>oddly for me snow is greyed out at 15 and I never see it.
02:00<Flygon>And there's no 'river/lake' tiles, and no 'ocean' tiles
02:00<Flygon>There is water tiles
02:01<Flygon>And the tiles below the water can have different heights
02:01<Flygon>In effect, allowing for a far more interesting water geography
02:01<Flygon>And also making ships fitting certain depths only be a thing
02:02<Flygon>Please someone tell me I'm not insane x.x
02:03<Flygon>Because I think this idea is utterly brilliant
02:03<Flygon>It would need a completely new method of rendering water tho
02:03<kamnet>If it's greyed out, then you must be on temperate and not arctic
02:05<kamnet>The only thing water depth would really affect is placement of oil rigs, though. They probably shouldn't be in shallow water. but that's probably a case of TMWFTLE
02:05<Flygon>It's more
02:06<Flygon>While water depth wouldn't seem all that useful with the current sets of... everything
02:06<Flygon>It does allow for a much more interesting future with content developed
02:06<Flygon>And kinda help solve the problem of rivers being different to ocean
02:06<Flygon>(because, y'know. They'd be the same type of tile instead of two seperate types)
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02:07<Flygon>It'd also allow for diagonal rivers, like how current oceans work
02:08<Flygon>And, most interestingly
02:09<Flygon>It'd allow for much more interesting looking water
02:09<Flygon>Imagine a map of Hawaii
02:09<Flygon>There's not much land
02:09<Flygon>But under the water?
02:09<Flygon>There's underwater mountains!
02:09<Flygon>Imagine the visual feast of seeing that represented in OpenTTD
02:10<Flygon>I can't imagine it being too hard...
02:10<Flygon>A transparent textured tile...
02:10<Flygon>Each height level below where water is set to be for a certain level going darker and darker as you get deeper...
02:10<kamnet>Rivers should be a different type of water than ocean
02:11<Flygon>As in?
02:11<kamnet>rivers are narrow channels that are constantly moving. ocean is deeper and moves more slowly, can evn be stagnant.
02:13<kamnet>There's nothing to really be gained from an underwater level, though. other than gas/oill deposits and fishing, theres no mining or other type of industry to be done. there's no underwater cities either.
02:13<kamnet>Yeah, looks really interesting, but tha's about it.
02:18<kamnet>I think the town names thing is a bug in 1.5.0. Just downloaded r27264 and it works normally
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02:19<Flygon>There's two ways you can tackle it
02:19<Flygon>Having Water-types
02:19<Flygon>One being river tile, one being ocean tyle
02:19<kamnet>Good morning Alberth. Just disccussing a bug in 1.5.0 that looks like is already fixed.
02:19<Flygon>Or you can implement a dynamically calcuated water system feature into OpenTTD
02:20<Flygon>I suspect the former would be significantly less work and significantly more sane
02:20<Flygon>But I still think it would be very useful for ship GRFs
02:20<@Alberth>k, those are the best kind of bugs
02:20<Flygon>eg. gigantuan oil tankers needing a spare depth below them of 3 height levels or someting
02:21<@Alberth>euhm, squid and fish make such a difference
02:21<kamnet>Dunno how significant it is, though, if it warrants rolling out 1.5.1 already
02:21<Flygon>Wait, how?
02:21<kamnet>certain FISH ships have reduced speeds on different waters
02:22<Flygon>I was thinking more
02:23<Flygon>Total incapability of running an oil tanker over a sandbar
02:23<@Alberth>you don't need 127 height levels for that imho
02:24<Flygon>Okay, let's completely rethink this
02:24<Flygon>A map has 255 height levels
02:24<Flygon>Independant of both land and water
02:24<Flygon>Ocean style water can occour at 32 tiles high
02:24<Flygon>Or 74 tiles high
02:24<Flygon>And flow down tiles like a river
02:24<Flygon>Let's think of this creatively...
02:25<Flygon>Say a player wanted to make an artificial lake for some reason
02:25<@Alberth>why waste 74 levels? you only want to differentiate 2-3 classes
02:25<Flygon>He creates the pit
02:25<Flygon>Then uses a tool to autofill to a maximum height on the z axis with water
02:26<Flygon>Bam, a lake
02:26<Flygon>It also feels like a method of creating more flexible rivers, too
02:26<Flygon>Rather than them being stored internally as taking up an entire tile
02:26<Flygon>They can functionally take half a tile
02:26<Flygon>With, say, a railway track taking the other half
02:27<Flygon>This means there would be no more ocean at the lowest height level
02:27<Flygon>This means water can occour at any height level
02:27<Flygon>And be far more malleable than the current way water works
02:28<Flygon>eg. the creation of far more natural looking lakes
02:28<kamnet>Summary of discussion a few misn ago, I know it's not your area but just FYI
02:28<Flygon>And the possible gameplay additional too by future GRF developers
02:34<@Alberth>I don't see a particular commit that could fix that kamnet, so I must be missing something, most likely
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02:36<@Alberth>you could try bisecting to the fix, if you want to know
02:37<@Alberth>Flygon: sounds mostly like an extension of the scenario editor
02:38<Flygon>I was thinking world generation too
02:38<Flygon>And gameplay
02:38<Flygon>And, amongst other interesting things
02:38<Flygon>It could allow land tiles to be at the exact same height level as oceans
02:38<Flygon>Without workarounds that involve using river/channel tiles
02:39<Flygon>And, more interestingly
02:39<Flygon>Allow tiles to go below the ocean
02:39<@Alberth>isn't that just about flooding?
02:39<Flygon>eg. an actual proper chunnel going on
02:40<Flygon>Because the ocean is no longer fixed at being the lowest height level possible
02:40<Flygon>It's more... flooding wouldn't 'need' to be a feature, because each tile is able to be defined if it's got water in it or not
02:41<Flygon>I'm not saying that this sort of thing would need to be applied retroactively to older savegames
02:41<Flygon>I'm saying that it could be a very very interesting feature for newer savegames, should the player choose to play a game with such alternate water mechanics
02:42<@Alberth>the main reason why water is at the bottom is because that's how world are generated
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02:42<Flygon>I kniw
02:42<Flygon>know, even
02:42<@Alberth>Flygon: you cannot have 2 forms of water, the old form must be convertable to the new form
02:43<Flygon>So there's no possible method of adding a flag to the savegame that says "Uses 'Standard' Water" or "Uses 'Enhanced' Water"?
02:43<@Alberth>so what's basically missing, is a way to express you want water at other tiles than at level 0
02:44<@Alberth>the flag is not the problem, the mechanics of handling both cases is the problem
02:44<@Alberth>it doubles maintenance effort
02:45<@Alberth>code is changing all the time, new features must work in both forms, etc
02:45<Flygon>I'm guessing this's going to end up in the "It'd be neat to have, but nobody's going to want to touch it with a barge pole" pile, isn't it
02:45<Flygon>Despite it's ability to sort out a lot of gameplay concerns (eg. underwater tunnels)
02:46<@Alberth>you need someone who is interested in the problem sufficiently to spend 5 years on it, or so
02:46<Flygon>Unless I win the lottery and donate $100,000AUD, I presume
02:47<Flygon>How much bribery would be required?
02:47<@Alberth>unlike what many people think, money is not solving the problem
02:47<Flygon>I mean, if bribery is a game function?... :B
02:47<Flygon>Lack of motivated workforce?
02:47<@Alberth>say you have 100,000 what then?
02:48<Flygon>I'm insane
02:48<kamnet>$20,000/year isn't really enough to buy somebody's time.
02:48<Flygon>But I don't really wanna buy a fancy car <_>
02:48<Flygon>kemnet: It is if they're Indian!
02:48<Flygon>srsly tho, point taken
02:48<Flygon>Sorry if I've been annoying x.x
02:48<Flygon>It's just that, in the end
02:49<Flygon>OpenTTD lacking water working 'properly' in a 3D space has bugged me for years
02:49<kamnet>Oh, well, if you want to hire a programmer from India... :D
02:49<Flygon>kamnet: Dear god no
02:49<Flygon>I've worked in IT
02:49<Flygon>I know how terrible Indian programmers tend to be
02:49<kamnet>Quantity, not quality
02:50<@Alberth>the bottom line is that you need a skilled programmer interested in solving the problem
02:50<supermop>i will add any feature you want for the low price of: 4 years of tuition for a CS Bachelors program plus living stipend, plus market rate of C++ dev in NYC +10% for as many years as it takes to add the feature
02:50<kamnet>Now maybe if you gave that money to a budding programmer who is in college, that money could be significant.
02:50<@Alberth>and 'skilled' isn't even that interesting, as long as the person wants to learn
02:51<@Alberth>in my view, open source is a large play garden where people learn things
02:51<@Alberth>but you need time and dedication for something of that scale
02:52<Flygon>I did once try to pick up the art of coding
02:52<kamnet>Seriously though, if I ever hit the lotto for a huge, life-changing prize, I'd very seriously consider giving some to the devs simply to thank them.
02:52<Flygon>It says measures as to how terrible I am that not only did I find disassembling 68k programs less confusing than descipering Java (yet I still came out near the top of the Java class...)
02:52<Flygon>That my Avisynth scripts somehow caused flamewars
02:52<Flygon>Due to my programming practices
02:53<@Alberth>assembly language programming does have its merits :)
02:54<Flygon>Yeah. For one thing, it's easier to desciper than Java
02:54<Flygon>Fuck x86 ASM btw
02:54<@Alberth>I guess you can read NFO?
02:55<Flygon>Haven't tried yet
02:55<Flygon>If I wasn't lazy, I probably would or something
02:55<@Alberth>I tried that a few times, and fail hopelessly :(
02:55<Flygon>I'd love to see more early Australian locos in the 2CC set... but that also means I'd need to be a good artist
02:55<Flygon>Which's a shame
02:55<Flygon>Because I got this book of Australian locos from the 1850s through to the 1990
02:56<Flygon>And it documents every single Australian loco design ever <_>
02:56<@Alberth>I believe you can all do that, but you don't learn stuff like that in a few months
02:56<Flygon>At least, of which was known in 1995
02:56<Flygon>Inc. all the technical details
02:56<kamnet>I've studied and forgotten NFO three ties now.
02:56<Flygon>kamnet: Just like me and 68k :D
02:56<Flygon>Also, funny story...
02:56<@Alberth>you probably need to use it everyday kamnet :)
02:56<Flygon>Friend of mine tried to teach me how to 68k by helping disassemble part of Shining Force
02:57<Flygon>Specifically, the subroutine that handles level-ups
02:57<kamnet>Indeed, Alberth. I know it while I'm doing it every day, but life gets buys and I have to set it aside and I forget it after a few months.
02:57<Flygon>The guy that was tutoring me had disassembled a significant part of Shining Force II, and assumed the level up routine code for the first game in the series worked the same way (same engine)
02:58<Flygon>It didn't. So we spent 3-4 hours trying to figure out why I kept giving wrong answers to shit, until it turned out Climax/Camelot's programmers are just utterly insane
02:58<@Alberth>haha :)
02:58<Flygon>We were trying to find the function that limits the level caps of characters in the game
02:59<Flygon>Shining Force II (for promoted charactes... won't get into that, so, we'll keep the story simple) did this sanely, by having a single byte for the game to reference when levelling up
02:59<Flygon>The byte was set to 63 (Hex, 99 Dec), and the subroutine basically went "IF the character hits 100 experience points, but is the level of the byte set here, don't display the level up message, don't change the level, and roll the experience back down to 0"
03:00<Flygon>Lemme find my hacking notes, because... the way Shining Force I's level routine worked did this in an insane, stupid, way that required referencing 3 seperate bytes that were all set to the same number
03:00<@Alberth>makes sense
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03:02<Flygon>Found the notes
03:02<Flygon>Okay, so
03:03<Flygon>This's going to be VERY hard to explain
03:03<Flygon>So, basically
03:03<Flygon>There's three bytes, the three of them set to 63 (99)
03:03<Flygon>The subroutine has three seperate functions inside it, each checking a seperate byte
03:04<Flygon>One part of the subroutine is to check what level to stop displaying the "x has leveled up!" message
03:04<Flygon>Another part of the subroutine set the level cap, also checking a seperate byte
03:04<Flygon>And the third part, to make this a complete clusterfuck
03:05<Flygon>Is what level the character hits to start advancing to the level cap
03:05<Flygon>The game checks if the character is already 99
03:05<Flygon>So if the character is 99
03:05<Flygon>It checks a seperate byte to see what level the character should advance to if the character is level 99
03:05<Flygon>Which is... of course, 99
03:06<Flygon>So not only does the character advance to level 99 from 99
03:06<Flygon>But... well... it's just incredibly stupid
03:06<@Alberth>sounds like your average OO design :)
03:06<Flygon>But, yeah. It really tripped up my tutor, hahhaa
03:07<@Alberth>object oriented
03:07<@Alberth>giving everything its own data, and doing its own thing
03:07<Flygon>Haha, gotcha
03:07<Flygon>Yeah, this is in 1991-1992, mind
03:07<Flygon>The sequel came out around 1993-1994... they cleaned up a lot of shit
03:08<Flygon>In part because they had to cram the hell out of the cart's capacity. Lots of things needed optimizing
03:08<Flygon>And yet, continuing in part with the series's idiosyncratic design processes
03:08<Flygon>They still used large PCM samples for the drums instead of FM instruments <_>
03:08<Flygon>(drums being one of the easier instruments to make sound good in FM)
03:10<@Alberth>people don't optimize the program, they optimize time and money for the project
03:10<Flygon>That was the money aspect
03:10<Flygon>It was cheaper to tighten up the program (eg. compression, other misc. things) than to go up from a 2mbyte cartridge to a 3mbyte cartridge
03:11<Flygon>Noting that, on the Mega Drive/Genesis, cartridges needed a mapper to allow SRAM use if they were larger than 2 megabytes
03:11<Flygon>Which kinda adds a fair bit of $$$ to the cost
03:11<@Alberth>replacing samples would mean new recording costs, etc
03:12<Flygon>Alberth, it's FM synth
03:12<Flygon>There's no recording anything :3
03:12<@Alberth>although it may have been better to create space that way, so you don't have to mess with a lot of smaller optimizations
03:12<Flygon>You simply take a preexisting FM patch, and adjust it a bit for your needs
03:12<Flygon>No samples needed!
03:13<@Alberth>k, but you need to have that knowledge available at the table where the decisions are made :)
03:13<Flygon>I should note
03:13<Flygon>Most devs, both Asian and American, seemed to insist on sampled Percussion for whatever reason... I don't know why
03:13<Flygon>Most European devs used FM percussion for the space savings
03:15<Flygon> None of the instruments shown in this video are sampled. They're all dynamically generated by the soundchip :D
03:15<Flygon>The Mega Drive/Genesis is basically the last 'chiptune' console :D
03:15<@Alberth>I once hacked in micropolis (original simcity), and found they had "yes votes" and a "no votes" byte for voting, which of course always sums up to 100, so I took one byte out. Then the other dev commented, hmm, yeah, we tried to optimize on space, but missed that one :p
03:16<Flygon>Haha, oops :D
03:16<Flygon>Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened to the first Shining Force
03:16<Flygon>They just hacked the function in a rush and never remembered to fix it
03:18<@Alberth>quite likely
03:18<Flygon>That reminds me
03:18<Flygon>I really should get a goahead on that Shining Force hack somepoint
03:18<Flygon>I got the idea in my head, for the lulz
03:18<Flygon>Just to confuse the fuck out of the community
03:19<Flygon>Only real hard bit would be art assets for overworld sprites
03:19<Flygon>And the music
03:19<Flygon>Music hacking is a pain in the ass
03:19<Flygon>And replacing the sound driver to make things more flexible is just too much of a hassle
03:20<Flygon>And there's no split disassembly. I hate doing everything in hex. It makes things so much harder to fix when they break >_>
03:21<Flygon>The entire "The Adventures of Batman and Robin" game, by the way...
03:21<Flygon>The Mega Drive version
03:21<Flygon>IS pretty much utterly insanely programmed...
03:22<Flygon>You wouldn't think what's basically a PC from 1987-1988 would be able to do half the shit it does x.x
03:22<@Alberth>oh, I believe that
03:23<@Alberth>it's amazing what you can do if you take great care in programming it
03:23<@Alberth>it's just that most code is very sloppy, as it saves money in making it
03:24<@Alberth>especially older code which gets used and reused and reused, with extra layers of crap around it to make it all work
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03:25<@Alberth>the only reason why that tactic works is because computers are getter faster all the time
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03:27<Flygon>Sorry, thought to my head about how things sorta stalled by the time the PS360 happened
03:28<@Alberth>ha, I always like people posting height maps, totally black images :p
03:49<Supercheese>Pretty sure that one kamnet posted isn't entirely black
03:50<kamnet>Nope, RGB colors 010101 through 202020
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04:18<Flygon>Either I've got a very good monitor
04:19<Flygon>Or I can see each individual step between levels
04:19<Flygon>In fact
04:19<Flygon>The levels are so close together
04:19<Flygon>That while I can tell individual steps apart
04:20<Flygon>I can also tell my monitor is probably an 18-bit panel (6-bits per channel) and using either dithering or rapid flashing between colours to try and simulate the 192 missing colours per channel
04:20<Flygon>Because some of the steps look off
04:20<supermop>just cracked open an awesome TO OL / Boatrocker collaboration
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04:39<supermop>i wonder if i start thanking companies for free stuff on instagram if they will actually start sending me free stuff
04:40<supermop>yo andy
04:41<TrueBrain>owh noes, an andy!
04:41<supermop>i want to try at least 50 more kiwi and oz beers before i leave - it would help if i could trick craft breweries into giving me free samples
04:41<andythenorth>what am I doing here?
04:41*andythenorth is confused
04:42<supermop>not drinking free beer
04:42<andythenorth>haven’t seen any
04:42<TrueBrain>now whos mistake is that!
04:45<Pikka>where's the beer?
04:45<andythenorth>pikka too
04:45<TrueBrain>someone has a highlight on the word beer ;)
04:45<andythenorth>what time is it?
04:45<Pikka>6.45 pm
04:45<andythenorth>feels earlier somehow
04:45<TrueBrain>what is this pm you talk about?
04:46<TrueBrain>its 10:46 here
04:46<andythenorth>all of you have the wrong time
04:46<andythenorth>what are you talking about?
04:46<andythenorth>it’s 09.46
04:46<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 0846z?
04:47<TrueBrain>woh is zulu, and why is he not on a spaceship?
04:48*andythenorth wonders if frosch stayed up all night
04:48<andythenorth>raising industry limit to 255
04:49<Flygon>You can't leave
04:49<Flygon>I like you too much!
04:49<Pikka>when did this happen?
04:49<TrueBrain>did he put a ring on it?
04:49<Flygon>Last I checked, supermop was straight
04:49<TrueBrain>do you check often?
04:50<TrueBrain>*this conversation is going the wrong way* :D
04:50<supermop>beer is in my glass
04:50<Flygon>I don't go to #openttd to find gay men
04:50<Flygon>I have other IRC channels for that
04:51<supermop>one of these
04:51<supermop>unfortunately one cannot go to IRC for free beer
04:54<supermop>Pikka: what beer they have up there beyond 4x?
04:54<supermop>anything i should try before a split
04:54<Pikka>nothing local worth speaking of
04:55<supermop>i've never had xxxx actually should try it at some point
04:55<supermop>2 months left
04:55<andythenorth>Pikka: so how will you use 255 industries in Pineapplez? o_O
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04:56<Supercheese>a plantation for every different type of fruit
04:56<supermop>each tai house a unique industry
04:56<Pikka>I won't. :)
04:56<Pikka>making "special" houses industries could be an option, but I'd want them to be buldozable
04:58<andythenorth>MAGIC BULLDOZER
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05:03<Pikka>any busthoughts, andythenorth?
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05:04<andythenorth>I like the render
05:05<andythenorth>I tried to keep the bus/coach distinction out of Road Hog
05:05<andythenorth>but I think there’s something in it
05:06<andythenorth>Pikka: what thoughts do you require? o_O
05:06<supermop>huh, rh has coaches i though?
05:06<Pikka>those will do :)
05:07<andythenorth>also 1920-2020, 4 buses, 4 coaches
05:07<andythenorth>or 5
05:07<andythenorth>is enough
05:08<Pikka>I have 5 of each
05:08<Pikka>and 5 trams
05:08<supermop>sounds god
05:09<andythenorth>also, hobbled buses / trams are pointless
05:09<andythenorth>too slow / too small = tedious
05:09<andythenorth>it’s not a history lesson
05:10<andythenorth>< 25 pax, < 25 mph
05:10<supermop>no rickshaws
05:10<Pikka>my first tram is 1870, 25mph, 30 cap
05:10<Pikka>first bus 1911, 30, 25
05:11<Pikka>first coach 1905, 40, 20 :)
05:11<andythenorth>sounds about right
05:12<Flygon>Dumb question
05:12<andythenorth>also bbl
05:12<Flygon>IS it possible to somehow increase the 65k road vehicle cap for games?
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05:22<TrueBrain>but would you want to, is the question :D
05:24<Flygon>I mean
05:24<Flygon>I wanna run more than 5k vehicles per company
05:24<Flygon>Because... y'know
05:24<Flygon>I like to use Trams
05:24<Flygon>And Long Distance coaches
05:26<kamnet>5000 vehicles * 15 companies = 75000 vehicles.
05:27<kamnet>have you ever really hit the 5k limit?
05:27<Flygon>Wait, I thought the cap was 65536 per game?
05:27<Flygon>And, yes
05:27<Flygon>A few times
05:27<Flygon>And the fact I tend to hit 1,500 rvs before 1945 is a concern
05:28<Flygon>Given I tend to take advantage of road coaches by the 1950s :P
05:28<Flygon>eGVTRS (I know I spelt that wrong <_>) and HEQS
05:28<kamnet>I think you're already taking advantage of them, your reproduction rate is far too high. Are you serving them beer, too?
05:29<kamnet>You, sir, are a cad. And a lush.
05:29<kamnet>A monster, even.
05:29<Flygon>I'm a Pocket Monster
05:30<kamnet>Luring in and then abusing poor, innocent sprites.
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05:30<kamnet>You should feel ashamed of yourself.
05:30<Flygon>I don't abuse sprites
05:30<Flygon>I abuse Zigzagoons!
05:30<kamnet>You can't convince me that they're doing this willingly
05:30<Flygon>Give them the right sort of berries, and they do
05:31<kamnet>Absolutely repulsive pig!
05:31<kamnet>Mammas, don't let your babies grow up to be box trucks.
05:32<Flygon>Now now
05:33<Flygon>Zigzagoon floof only ends up boxed shaped when raised in a box and given floof enhancer!
05:34<kamnet>I stock pokemon cards and toys for a living
05:34<kamnet>I don't have a clue what any of it is
05:43<frosch123>the good thing about having so many open bugs is: you can close every new bug as duplicate of an existing one :)
05:44<kamnet>Huh. just found a Quilladin card on my desk.
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05:47<kamnet>frosch123: Weird, when I searched for "townname" earlier, that one didn't come up
05:48<kamnet>Is OpenTTD 1.5.0 not using a trunk title game?
05:49<frosch123>it only works for pre 0.5 savegames
05:49<frosch123>so the nightly savegame is about the only one with which it works
05:49<frosch123>it's broken in every stable release since 1.0 (since they got custom savegames)
05:49<frosch123>but worked in every nightly ever :)
05:50<kamnet>That seems like a particularly nasty bug then.
05:50<kamnet>I'm surprised more people haven't complained
05:50<frosch123>yep, so nasty that it was reported by two people in 5 years :p
05:51<frosch123>well, most likely just ignore newgrf and townname newgrf
05:51<frosch123>it's one of the most hidden settings
05:51<frosch123>anyway, i closed 2/2 bugs today due to duplicate :p
05:53<kamnet>I guess most people only play one game in a session
05:58<kamnet>In other news, I made a dev do some work today. Go me!
06:01<Johnnei>Only 709 left :p
06:04<@Alberth>you shouldn't count the feature requests :)
06:05<Johnnei>If I only search for type=bug there are only 100 :D
06:10<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27265 /trunk (6 files in 2 dirs) (2015-05-03 12:10:04 +0200 )
06:10<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Truncated comment in openttd.grf
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>-Fix: Truncated commi
06:22<frosch123>don't scare me :)
06:28<frosch123>hmm, actually, why is my "bin" folder still modified?
06:28<frosch123>i just committed it
06:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27266 /trunk/bin/baseset (4 files) (2015-05-03 12:30:02 +0200 )
06:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r27265): Eddi jinxed it.
06:30<Johnnei>lol :D
06:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27267 trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp (2015-05-03 12:33:26 +0200 )
06:33<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Translate industry variable A6.
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07:10<frosch123>hmm, it doesn't even need a savegame bump
07:11<frosch123>yay, for assert_compile :)
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07:38<Wolf01>hi o/
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07:47<frosch123>Johnnei: if i do not care about servicing intervals, why should i have to reset all vehicles to default manually when buying another company, which also did not care about servicing?
07:48<Johnnei>frosch123: With that mindset it might even be better to also override all newly owned vehicles to the company defaults, even if the had custom settings.
07:51<frosch123>hmm, also true
07:51<frosch123>no idea them, i never played taking over ais
07:51<Johnnei>I never even played with shares enabled
07:52<frosch123>how did you get to the base_consist thingie though?
07:52<frosch123>it's used for cloning, autoreplace and train consist changes
07:52<frosch123>and the default should be "bit not set"
07:53<frosch123>ah, wait, nvm
07:53<Johnnei>Initially I thought it was just a visual glitch, so I added the DoCommand thingy in economy which made it seem fine, but it still broke. So I started stepping through the autoreplace process to find that base_consist failed to recreate vehicle_flags correctly
07:54<frosch123>it's fine, i got it now :)
07:54<Johnnei>Even with this change the vehicle_flags of old and new don't match but as they are copied manually I didn't add the other missing flags
07:55<frosch123>he, vehicle_flags is a mess of static/dynamic flags :)
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07:57<Johnnei>oh well, it seems to do it's intended job :p
07:58<frosch123>ok, if i take your interpretation "servicing intervals should remain the same, when taking over a company"
07:58<frosch123>then economy.cpp should not check for different servint_ispercent
07:58<Johnnei>I actually didn't check if that change was still needed after fixing the base_consist
07:59<frosch123>currently it does not set the is-custom flag, if both used the same unit (percent/days), but different amounts
07:59<Johnnei>Good point as well
08:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do you have a good reasoning, whether vehicles should adapt to the new companies' default servicing interval, or keep their old one, when taking over companies? :p
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: maybe a group action "set service interval to default"?
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>and put all new vehicles from a company into a group (with subgroups if the company had groups)
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08:01<frosch123>i knew you wouldn't have a simple solution :p
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>hey... you drag me out of completely unrelated context, and i have to make something up on the spot... :p
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: anyway, that basically amounts to: "keep the value"
08:03<Johnnei>The change in economy.cpp is still required to resolve the visual error. So the forementioned error in the if-statement should be fixed in all cases :p
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08:05<frosch123>and what if both companies did not use any custom intervals, and both had the same defaults?
08:05<frosch123>should the vehicles still be set to custom
08:05<frosch123>just that they may never be modified when changing the default? :p
08:06<frosch123>andythenorth: <- does that work?
08:07*andythenorth compiles
08:07*andythenorth patches nmlc
08:09<Johnnei>frosch123: I guess your solution in the comment seems the most player friendly, but if the player ignores service intervals then they'll still be suprised by the custom ones.
08:10<andythenorth>when you acquire a company, the company acquires your service intervals
08:11<andythenorth>proper domain for the source of the value is *your* company
08:11<andythenorth>otherwise, what, we keep old company colour for vehicles too?
08:12<frosch123>yay, now i can just let eddi and andy battle it out :)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a boring battle
08:13<andythenorth>what’s eddi’s proposal?
08:13<andythenorth>also nml builtin_industry_type() has a fixed check for number of industries
08:13<andythenorth>dunno if that one should change or not
08:15<frosch123>hmm, what weird function is that?
08:16<frosch123>what uses (industry_id | new_id << 7) ?
08:16<frosch123>ok, so i missed some restrictions :)
08:16<frosch123>limit is 128 then
08:17<andythenorth>definitely 128?
08:17*andythenorth changing nml now
08:18<frosch123>well, my patch is incomplete then
08:22<Johnnei>andythenorth: Eddi's proposal basically came down to: keep the old values and an option to convert a group to default interval settings.
08:23<andythenorth>I have an alternative proposal
08:23<andythenorth>remove option to purchase companies
08:23<andythenorth>silly gameplay
08:24<Johnnei>haha :D I guess the players who actually use it will disagree :p
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>if we listend to every fit andy throws about "remove feature X, it's silly"...
08:25<Johnnei>New in openttd 1.6: We removed everything. The code base is now 0 lines of code.
08:25<frosch123>should be worth 2.0 status :p
08:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause is likely right about the correct solution
08:27<andythenorth>but mine is easier to implement :P
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08:30<andythenorth>A fatal newgrf error has occurred: attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 59525)
08:31<Flygon>At least it's not a pixie error
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08:41<Johnnei>Alright. Will try to make a patch for Eddi's solution but might take some time, I'm not that familiar with the codebase yet :p
08:41<frosch123>it's not necessarily a good idea to follow eddi's ideas .)
08:42<frosch123>there is no point in a hyper-complex solution which, noone uses anyway
08:42<Johnnei>That's true as well, but then we should decide on which settings should be enforced
08:45<frosch123>i would still go for "default" means "i don't care"
08:45<frosch123>keep custom of old company, enforce defaults of new company for vehicles with no custom interval
08:47<Johnnei>Okey, will do that then. Seems the most user friendly.
08:48*andythenorth wonders why that ID is invalid, and where it comes from
08:49<frosch123>it usually means that you skipped the item definition
08:52*andythenorth tests with an industry that doesn’t redefine default coal mine
08:53<andythenorth>same message, sprite 3131
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09:27<andythenorth>biab, flakey wifi
09:30<andythenorth>frosch123: that sprite error was bogus, Eandythenorth
09:31<andythenorth>had two copies of ottd running, one unpatched
09:31<andythenorth>only noticed because of crossing bells on title screen :P
09:36<Johnnei>Changed the patch to copy the values, however the cmdChangeServiceInt copies the company settings. grrrr
09:42<@peter1138>Excuse the digital zoom potatory :(
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09:52<@Rubidium>peter1138: what's so special about that train?
10:04<@Rubidium>and speaking about trains in the UK; why is buying a ticket Cambridge - Newbury about GBP 10 more expensive than Cambridge - London Kings Cross + London Kings Cross - Newbury (both routes go via London Kings Cross)
10:04<@peter1138>Dunno, it's a little unusual, in UK-land at least.
10:07<@Alberth>nobody wants to go to London Kings Cross
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10:15<Wolf01>Rubidium, 2 slow trains vs 1 rapid train?
10:16<@Rubidium>Wolf01: nope, the exact same trains
10:19<Wolf01>In Italy looks like you pay more the more time they take...
10:25<@Rubidium>right... Amsterdam - Birmingham with a layover in ... Dubai
10:26<+michi_cc>Rubidium: Splitting train tickets is allowed, so the more expensive ticket is purely for anybody who doesn't realize this.
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11:33*andythenorth wants an account system for irc
11:33<andythenorth>accounting *
11:33<andythenorth>then I can work out the profit (loss) on each post
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11:44<DanMacK>Hey all
11:45<andythenorth>frosch123: so the 128 industry patch works for me
11:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: def get_profit(post): return -1
11:55<@Alberth>hmm, irc eh? in that case, I may have missed a few cases
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12:05<andythenorth>Alberth: I think it’s a dice roll
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12:08<@Alberth>is more interesting to try, at least :)
12:15<Johnnei>return time() % 9 :D
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15:07<andythenorth>quiet cat
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15:10<V453000>:) more about the lego than some trivial rotation :P
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [sprite] Ignoring 104 unused extra bytes from the sprite from /nars2w at position 3312641 <-- this positioning data seems broken/useless
15:20<frosch123>that grfcodec bug was fixed 2 years ago, in case you are wondering
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i was probably not :p
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>is this known?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that may be my code
15:23<frosch123>there are no warnings with gcc 4.7
15:23<frosch123>there are various warning with various other compilers
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>+ case 0x4E: // total weight of the consist <-- did i actually write this?
15:25<frosch123>yes, you even submitted it to fs
15:25<frosch123>and i rejected it :p
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15:28<Johnnei>rm -rf ./bugs-fixes
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16:10<FLHerne>cargo_(dis)allow_refit always overrides the (non_)refittable_cargo_classes, right?
16:11<V453000>vehicles: can I allow/disallow company colours just by a parameter switching the CC flag, and keeping the sprites, or do I have to define new sprites?
16:11<frosch123>FLHerne: yes
16:12<FLHerne>And it seems disallow/nonrefittable always overrides the positive version, if I somehow manage to set both?
16:12<V453000>I want to have 32bpp vehicles not use CC but provide the option without doubling grfsize
16:12<FLHerne>OTOH, if that ever actually matters to me my code is broken already
16:13<frosch123>V453000: no, you cannot disable the "mask"
16:13<V453000>define new vehicle which does not have it?
16:13<frosch123>either there is one, or there is none
16:13<V453000>sure, in sprites
16:14<V453000>but vehicle has flag for CC
16:14<frosch123>you do not need separate vehicles
16:14<frosch123>just provide sprites without "mask"
16:14<frosch123>no idea what you want to do with the CC flag
16:14<frosch123>it only affects the "mask"
16:14<frosch123>it does nothing if you have no "mask"
16:14<V453000>I will have mask for all
16:15<V453000>and disable the mask by the flag
16:15<frosch123>you can force the company colour to be always blue, but you cannot disable the mask
16:15<V453000>jesus christ
16:16<V453000>so no way to make CC disable-able without doubling filesize?
16:16<frosch123>so, if there is one company colour that looks like "without mask", you can force that one
16:16<frosch123>but the mask will be applies in any case
16:16<frosch123>no mask, means duplicate sprites
16:16<V453000>duplicate sprites with and without mask
16:17<frosch123>in theory you could make two grfs :p removing the mask does not change the md5sum :p
16:17<V453000>I wont do that, will ignore CC insteead
16:17<frosch123>but ottd won't load unused sprites anyway, so it does not affect the spritecache
16:17<V453000>filesize though
16:17<frosch123>only size on disk, so why do you care?
16:17<V453000>and stupid mess in code etc
16:18<V453000>I for some reason assumed that it could work to disable it
16:18<V453000>but hm :)
16:18<V453000>I guess that could not be changed eh
16:20<frosch123>quite unlikely :p
16:20<frosch123>pineapple has n sprites for n colours
16:20<frosch123>adding n+1 for traditional company colour does not matter in that case
16:20<V453000>good point
16:20<V453000>since I want to do colours as well
16:21<frosch123>well, in that case you do not save any code either :p
16:21<frosch123>it's simple to add another case depending on a global parameter
16:21<frosch123>if you have already a switch for colours anyway
16:22<V453000>well, okay :) that sounds like the way to go
16:23<V453000>it doesnt even need to be an extra render, can just apply the mask to existing
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16:26<V453000>fine then :D thanks for making it clear frosch123 :)
16:28<frosch123>you can make a switch like "my_grf_parameter == 1 ? 16 : company_colour1" which then has cases 0 to 15 for 32bpp sprites, and 16 for cc mask
16:28<frosch123>so, you need no extra switch at all
16:29<V453000>I make just about 8 colours, all 15 is stupidly many :)
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22:16<JezK>o/ hello!
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23:03<JezK>playing with cargodist is fun! but how do you enable the overlay in the main map?
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---Logclosed Mon May 04 00:00:00 2015