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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-04

---Logopened Mon May 04 00:00:00 2015
00:16<kamnet>Morning all
00:17<JezK>morning!
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02:37<Flygon>Whelp
02:37<Flygon>I've gone from having a GPU run at 99c
02:37<Flygon>Down to having it run at 27c
02:37<Flygon>All in the space of 15 minutes
02:37<Flygon>It's GPU fans fell off. Somehow.
02:40<V453000>you should create a social media page for your CPU so it has constant audience of fans
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02:45<andythenorth>o/
02:45<V453000>hy
02:45<andythenorth>is FIRS defaul primary production a bit low?
02:46<andythenorth>default *
02:46<V453000>idk, havent played it in a while
02:46<andythenorth>maybe it’s just some industries
02:46<V453000>but it is probably fine
02:46*andythenorth wonders if production is a parameter thing
02:46*andythenorth hates solving problems iwth parameters
02:46<V453000>xd
02:47<andythenorth>hmm
02:48<andythenorth>coastal distance check for water based industries
02:48<andythenorth>reason for that is...?
02:48<JezK>hi, does anyone know how to activate the map overlay for cargodist?
02:49<JezK>https://wiki.openttd.org/images/4/4c/Cargodist-overlays.png like the one shown in the main view here
02:49<JezK>i can see it in the minimap but it's so tiny it's hard to see the detail
02:49<supermop>ive never found it to be low andythenorth
02:49<andythenorth>probably just a few industries
02:50<andythenorth>dredging site seems low
02:50<andythenorth>and they don’t cluster
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02:54<Flygon><Flygon> Is it stupid to use blu-tack to temp. fix the GPU fans until I can get replacement fans?
02:54<andythenorth>nah, it’s heat-proof
02:55<andythenorth>definitely won’t melt
02:55<andythenorth>and it won’t slip or deform if the fans have a slight vibration
02:55<Flygon>Alright
02:55<andythenorth>also the GPU is expendable no?
02:55<Flygon>I was worried it might be dangerous in some way
02:55<Flygon>Well
02:56<Flygon>Expendable in such a way that I know it's a lemon regardless, but I'm utterly broke
02:56<Flygon>So I gotta MacGyver it back to life
02:56<andythenorth>sometimes andythenorth is not wholly telling the truth
02:58<Flygon>Well
02:58<Flygon>andy
02:58<Flygon>There's two directions for you, really
02:58<Flygon>Friend for life
02:58<Flygon>Or enemy for life
02:58<Flygon>If this works
02:58<Flygon>I'mma like you even more :P
02:59<andythenorth>I wouldn’t be using blu-tack personally
02:59<Flygon>I'll probably just have to buy new fans for $10
03:00<Flygon>And wait for a friend to have another spare GPU x.x
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03:07<Flygon>andythenorth: Seems to work so far
03:07<Flygon>I can keep the PC in power positon without shit falling off
03:07<Flygon>tower*
03:07<andythenorth>good luck
03:08<andythenorth>;)
03:08<Flygon>Yeah
03:08<Flygon>I'm gonna need it for a month and a half
03:08<Flygon>The time required to get the spare money, then shipping for new fans
03:09<Flygon>Okay
03:09<Flygon>Now resetting the clock speeds from basement minimums
03:09<Flygon>Effectively doubling them...
03:09<Flygon>So... manufacturer recommended settings now
03:10<Flygon>From 27c to 32c... not bad.
03:10<Flygon>And RO isn't lagging whenever a new object comes on screen
03:10<Flygon>SOo... yeah
03:12<Flygon>Hmm
03:12<Flygon>Fans are vibrating a tiny bit
03:12<Flygon>Not surprised
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03:14<Flygon>Okay
03:14<Flygon>Now just 33c with case on and RO running
03:29<kamnet>JezK: go to the map menu, select Cargo Flow Legend. Select the cargoes you want to see displayed.
03:31<JezK>kamnet, ahh i didn't realise the map menu dropped down
03:31<JezK>thanks!
03:32<kamnet>Many of the menus drop down if you click and hold
03:36<JezK>sneaky!
03:41<kamnet>*sighs* I wish FooBar would come back.
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03:51<supermop>andythenorth: dredge is fine low
03:51<supermop>otherwise you end up with way too much to haul away
03:55<argoneus>eyoo
04:00<andythenorth>urgh
04:00<andythenorth>nml is failing on code that isn’t in the source
04:00<andythenorth>I hate this
04:01<andythenorth>the code in the traceback doesn’t exist in firs.pnml
04:01<andythenorth>firs.nml *
04:03*andythenorth plays ‘hunt the include'
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04:34<kamnet>Hunt the Wumpus
04:40<@Alberth>sounds familiar
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04:46<FLHerne>Is there a convenient API to get existing grfids from Bananas, other than scraping them off the newgrf list?
04:46<FLHerne>The latter doesn't seem particularly hard, but might break if the site gets updated
04:48<@Alberth>how is that useful to do?
04:50<@Alberth>(there is no such api afaik)
04:52<@Alberth>and it's also quite useless, the list is not complete, and never will be
04:52<@Alberth>hmm, there is a section with reserved ids in newgrfspecs I think
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05:00<andythenorth>I can’t remove my ‘reservations’ from that :(
05:01<andythenorth>owing to my wiki creds don’t work
05:01<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action8#Used_ranges
05:01<andythenorth>I don’t want all those ranges :(
05:02<kamnet>Auction them.
05:03<andythenorth>free to collect
05:03<andythenorth>I never asked for them
05:03<andythenorth>the whole concept is daft
05:03<andythenorth>and I apparently have the largest number of reservations :(
05:03<FLHerne>Alberth: There's no actual comprehensive list of used grfids
05:03<kamnet>What ranges do you want?
05:04<FLHerne>But the Bananas one is about as close as it's likely to get, since the vast majority of used grfs are on there
05:04<andythenorth>I don’t want any ranges
05:04<andythenorth>it’s an obsolete concept
05:05<kamnet>All gone?
05:05<FLHerne>I've gotten totally distracted and am trying to write a GUI NML frontend
05:05<FLHerne>So a 'this grfid is already in use' warning seems like a useful feature
05:05<andythenorth>historically there may be some old grfs of mine out there with earlier grfids
05:05<andythenorth>from the time when incrementing the grfid per-release was standard
05:05<FLHerne>And is a lot easier to implement than all the actually-useful important ones :P
05:06<@Alberth>you won't be able to publish your grf if the id is already used
05:06*andythenorth counts 8 grfids on his fingers
05:06<andythenorth>CHIPS, HEQS, FISH, Squid, FIRS, Termite, Road Hog, Iron Horse
05:06<andythenorth>did I miss anything? :|
05:07<@Alberth>and you're missing the entire simuscape collection, and a load of very old grfs
05:07<kamnet>Andythenorth: Done
05:08<FLHerne>That applies to your "won't be able to publish..." comment just as much :P
05:08<andythenorth>kamnet: thanks :)
05:08<andythenorth>@calc 1966323-8
05:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1966315
05:08<kamnet>Didn't even realize I had an account there, but, woot.
05:08<andythenorth>I didn’t need that many IDs, really
05:08<andythenorth>really
05:09<FLHerne>I can't see any possible way to reliably detect every collision, but I don't see why that should make detecting most of them a waste of time
05:10<@Alberth>copy the reserved ids from newgrfspecs, and you're done
05:10<kamnet>Rubidium was apparently the one who put those on the list.
05:10<andythenorth>I think he was trolling :P
05:10<andythenorth>probably trolling me
05:10<FLHerne>That list is _definitely_ not comprehensive :P
05:12<@Alberth>compared to coding problems for most nml users, the grfid is a non-issue :)
05:13<andythenorth>it’s the most ridiculous storm-in-teacup :P
05:13<andythenorth>it’s not even bikeshedding
05:14<andythenorth>at least in bikeshedding, people waste their time talking about a non-issue that they understand
05:14<andythenorth>instead of one that they don’t understand
05:14*andythenorth grumbles
05:15<@Alberth>do nicer things instead, like adding a feature to firs :)
05:16<kamnet>Copying from BaNaNaS makes sense becuase that's the vast majority of the most up-to-date NewGRFs. There aren't many actively updated NewGRFs that isn't on BaNaNaS.
05:18<FLHerne>Alberth: It's a tool for creating newgrfs, sort of like a more-broken and probably never-to-be-finished grfmaker clone
05:18<FLHerne>Alberth: The idea is to have it check the user's grfID choice as soon as they enter it, and then at least it'll reduce the possibility of getting conflicting IDs
05:20<FLHerne>And yes, I'm mostly worrying about it because it's a good way to procrastinate without doing the actually-hard bits...
05:21<@Alberth>most grfmaker usage is out of cold-water fear
05:22<@Alberth>you could easily make a text template that can be filled in, and cover most use
05:22<FLHerne>Yep. OTOH, people keep using it despite being (a) incomprehensible anyway and (b) unmaintained/strongly disrecommended for years :P
05:23<@Alberth>people are just scared to death by a text editor
05:23<FLHerne>Mostly I just want to get the hang of PyQt and this seems like a fun thing to do
05:25<@Alberth> I don't know how you use nml at a windows machine, but doing that from a gui could be a big step
05:26<@Alberth>probably combined by getting rid of the crazy cpp requirement
05:26<@Alberth>(and make)
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05:40<titch>hello
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05:42<@Alberth>hihi
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05:43<Johnnei>You scared him/her!
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05:43<titch>hello. need a bit of help with the map gen. i have it set to "Terrain Type: Very Flat, Smoothness: Very Smooth, Sea Level: Very low" but i still seem to be getting maps full of water on the "Temperate" landscape. any help regarding this would be useful as i hate spending all my money early on on changing the land layout
05:45<titch>i have version 1.5.0
05:48<@Alberth>try setting the water level to custom, eg 1%
05:49<@Alberth>but your very flat world is difficult for controlling amount of water
05:49<@Alberth>a small shift in height gives lots more water
05:51<@Alberth>your goal is to a small amount of water, or none at all?
05:52<@Alberth>+have
05:53<@Alberth>an alternative can be to make a heightmap, and use that
05:53<@Alberth>or make a nice map in the editor
05:55<titch>cheers. see what happens
05:58<@Alberth>as a suggestion, you may want to try not changing the landscape in the game one day. It makes building a network much more challenging / interesting
05:59<@Alberth>in particular with a somewhat less flat map :)
06:14<titch>true... but i guess im still trying to learn how to best do this game... im a noob xD
06:17<@Alberth>that's fine, when I started playing, I was leveling everything too :)
06:17<@Alberth>have fun figuring out what you like best :)
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08:38<kamnet>GAH. Very much dislike youtube right now. "Do No Evil", unless others can profit from your works.
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11:51<FLHerne>Why are there separate properties 'running_cost_base' and 'running_cost_factor'? Surely they just combine to give a single value anyway?
11:52<FLHerne>If it's a legacy thing, which is it recommended to use?
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11:53<frosch123>running_cost_base is an enum
11:54<frosch123>you can set it to train engine, wagon, road vehicle, etc
11:54<frosch123>running_cost_factor is the actual thing for setting the price
11:54<FLHerne>Ok, so I'll just ignore the former :P
11:54<frosch123>essentially running_cost_base specifies which setting in the basecost newgrf should affect your vehicles
11:55<FLHerne>Actually, steam/diesel/electric might matter
11:55<FLHerne>But probably not
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12:05<@Terkhen>hello
12:07<kamnet>o/
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12:17<andythenorth>FLHerne: how are you making your grf making thing?
12:17<FLHerne>Messily...
12:18<FLHerne>It's pretty much a 'can I make something in pyqt' exercise
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12:19<FLHerne>So far I've got it a form to create the grf block, and a road-vehicle table that doesn't work yet
12:20<andythenorth>you’re outputting nml?
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12:21<FLHerne>Yes
12:21<FLHerne>At the moment, very hackily with format strings
12:21<andythenorth>are you writing nml out as strings directly from the form submit?
12:21<FLHerne>I have vague schemes to try and use nml's ast directly, but not yet
12:21<andythenorth>or do you have some intermediate classes for the vehicles/tiles etc
12:22<FLHerne>Intermediate classes with sanity checking
12:22<FLHerne>Of course, it's likely to output gibberish anyway because it's me writing it
12:22<andythenorth>I hate trying to understand other people’s code (at least, when it’s not a nice module by sane people)….but
12:23<andythenorth>Road Hog et al are all driven by python classes
12:23<andythenorth>FWIW
12:24<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/road_vehicle.py
12:24<FLHerne>Hm, I should look at that
12:24<andythenorth>possibly the most useful lesson not to re-learn the hard way is vehicles vs. consists
12:25<andythenorth>you need to be able to create consists for trains / rvs (articulated vehicles in both cases)
12:25<andythenorth>and there are many gotchas with handling properties for consists
12:25<andythenorth>so it’s easier to always have a consist for every vehicle, and specify n units
12:25<andythenorth>where n is 1-[limit]
12:26<andythenorth>a lot of the Road Hog code is obviously specific to that grf + that templating language
12:26<andythenorth>have you got a templater?
12:26<andythenorth>%s is not a good one :P
12:27<FLHerne>Not yet, the whole thing is a big pile of broken hacks...
12:28<andythenorth>python String templating is ok
12:28<andythenorth>and included in standard library
12:28<andythenorth>but lacks loops or other features you’d want in a templater
12:29<andythenorth>I use chameleon, but it’s an odd choice for the problem, being designed for html/xml
12:31*andythenorth wonders what genshi is like
12:32<andythenorth>mako looks pleasing http://www.makotemplates.org
12:33<FLHerne>New-style python format strings are nice in every respect except using {} :P
12:33<FLHerne>I guess I'd find myself using % in NML occasionally too though
12:36<andythenorth>ideally the syntax of the templater doesn’t conflate with the syntax of nml
12:37<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/templates/road_vehicle_properties.pynml
12:39<FLHerne>You do seem to have written most of the code I need ;P
12:39<@Alberth>FLHerne: template strings use $ https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html?highlight=string#template-strings
12:39<FLHerne>I should definitely spend some time seeing how much of it I can steal
12:40<andythenorth>FLHerne: the main issue will be unpicking what you don’t need
12:40<andythenorth>it’s very hard to adapt one highly specific thing to another :P
12:40<andythenorth>which is why I steal Eddi|zuHause’s concepts from CETS, but not the code
12:40<andythenorth>:P
12:43<FLHerne>Well, let's see if I can get basic RVs with nice simple properties working first :P
12:44<FLHerne>Callbacks and switches and articulation and all the insane things people do with trains can wait (probably forever tbh)
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12:46<andythenorth>cb handling is a remarkably hard problem to solve in a UI
12:48<FLHerne>I have a buggy mess of a flowchart lib lurking somewhere, might try redoing that
12:49<andythenorth>if I was building it, I’d built it as a web service
12:49<andythenorth>no binaries to distribute
12:49<andythenorth>no platform-specific bugs
12:49<andythenorth>:P
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12:49<andythenorth>hmm web service would want to be stateless
12:49<FLHerne>Browsers are platforms in their own right...
12:50<FLHerne>I got persuaded to fiddle with some CSS for someone, and of course it kept looking different depending on browser/version/moon phase
12:50<andythenorth>that happens
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12:50<andythenorth>but it wouldn’t affect the nml output :P
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14:02<kamnet>GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
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14:14<Supercheese>You don't say.
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14:18<FLHerne>GAAH?
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15:05<kamnet>yeah.
15:07<FLHerne>What was so GAAAH-worthy?
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15:30<Wolf01>o/
15:30<andythenorth>\o
15:30<andythenorth>o
15:30<andythenorth>o/
15:30<andythenorth>is it done yet?
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15:31<Wolf01>who? what? where? when? why?
15:35<FLHerne>If that, nope
15:35<FLHerne>Fiddling with pointless drag-and-drop stuff still...
15:39<andythenorth>hmm
15:39<andythenorth>drag-and-drop articulated vehicle maker
15:39<andythenorth>have you got save-load yet? :P
15:40<FLHerne>No, of course not. Who needs that?
15:40<andythenorth>ha
15:40<andythenorth>just use pickle :P
15:40<andythenorth>and file.write()
15:41<andythenorth>what could go wrong? o_O
15:41<FLHerne>I'm trying to learn how to use the toolkit, and incidentally getting something that I can claim is supposed to be a grf editor :P
15:41*andythenorth wonders what the file format should be
15:41<andythenorth>json?
15:41<andythenorth>or nml?
15:41<andythenorth>if you stick to pure nml, you are very limited on metadata
15:41<andythenorth>json it is then
15:41<frosch123>Wolf01: calm down, full moon will go down again
15:42<FLHerne>Loading directly from nml would be neat, but I doubt I can make it work anytime soon
15:42<andythenorth>importing nml is one thing
15:42<andythenorth>but you might not want your storage tied to nml
15:42<andythenorth>you can ‘import’ nml by borrowing the nmlc parser
15:42<andythenorth>but then you won’t have it in a structure matching your program
15:43<Wolf01>just like my graphic coworker today "I need the uploaded file extension to show the right icon on the download link" me: >_> he: "what could go wrong?"
15:44<Wolf01>I need a better way to do that, it's not some stuff to do in the template itself
15:46<@Terkhen>good night
15:46<Wolf01>night
15:47<andythenorth>Wolf01: just map MIME type to icon?
15:47<andythenorth>it’s not foolproof, but eh, it’s all your browser is doing in its download manager probably
15:47<Wolf01>not in a foreach in the template
15:48<andythenorth>dunno, depends on your templating language etc :)
15:48<andythenorth>this is a user upload?
15:48<Wolf01>yeah
15:48<andythenorth>oh eh
15:48<andythenorth>sounds boring :)
15:48<andythenorth>I just use the file icon from font-awesome or such :P
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15:49<andythenorth>you haven’t uploaded at the point where you need to render it? This is some JS magic?
15:49<andythenorth>or it has been uploaded successfully already?
15:49<Wolf01>already uploaded
15:49<V453000>andythenorth: wise to make RVs longer than 1 tile?
15:49<V453000>how do they behave in stations?
15:49<Wolf01>that's why I need some more control on the logic side, templates shouldn't do logic
15:50<V453000>8/8 best? eventually 16/8
15:50<V453000>tramz shall be 32/8
15:50<andythenorth>V453000: can’t be more than 8/8 unless you fuck around with articulated
15:50<andythenorth>and if it’s articulated, just make it articulated
15:50<V453000>ofc, 8+ = articulation
15:51<andythenorth>there are few things in HEQS that are long than 8/8 in the sprite, but they glitch: tunnles, bridges
15:51<andythenorth>tunnels *
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15:51<andythenorth>Wolf01: dunno, if it was python, I’d have some list or dict from the view and iterate over that for the uploaded files
15:52<andythenorth>list of tuples or whatever
15:52<V453000>yez, glitches are meh
15:52<@Alberth>V453000: awesome work on the nuts maglev, such colourful graphics!
15:53<V453000>:) thanks ... the CC is super bad though
15:54<@Alberth>livestock, grain, and steel just splendid to combine in a train
15:54<Wolf01>we just use a MVC pattern, I have a list of files which should at least provide SplFileInfo stuff and other shorthand methods without having to write them in the template
15:54<V453000>yarr :P
15:56*andythenorth uses the not-quite-MVC pattern that is prevalent in some python apps :P
15:56<andythenorth>where the view is also the controller
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15:57<andythenorth>unless it delegates it to other classes, in which case it’s just a view :P
16:00<andythenorth>Wolf01: in your world, does view = template?
16:00<Wolf01>yes
16:01<andythenorth>ah
16:01<andythenorth>and controller is [PHP, Perl, .net, something]
16:01<Wolf01>all PHP
16:02<andythenorth>but PHP also lives in the templates?
16:02<Wolf01>I would like to use twig for the template, but for now it is too much work, also the graphic designer should learn the new thing
16:03<andythenorth>and you don’t want to spam your template with logic
16:03<Wolf01>just the basic ifs and foreaches to print stuff :P
16:04<andythenorth>yeah
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16:04*andythenorth has been there and bought that T-shirt
16:04<andythenorth>templates fetching objects directly from DB
16:04<andythenorth>eh, let’s not do that anymore :P
16:05<Wolf01>my website still does that, but it was plain html ported to php
16:05<andythenorth>we learn
16:05<andythenorth>by our mistakes
16:05<Wolf01>I would like to learn more
16:06<Wolf01>I still make stupid mistakes every now and then
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17:02<FLHerne>Sanity check - will this actually work? http://i.imgur.com/uKXmzh5.png
17:02<FLHerne>Never mind the random ordering
17:03<FLHerne>s/work/be useful/
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17:16<TartarusMkII>Hello everyone. I see in the advanced settings, options for AI players. How can I use these?
17:20<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: You'll need some AIs
17:20<TartarusMkII>Can you tell me any more about that/.
17:20<TartarusMkII>?
17:20<FLHerne>Go to AI/GS settings, click Check Online Content, grab some AIs
17:21<FLHerne>Then increase the number of competitors (same window) and pick AIs or leave them random
17:22<TartarusMkII>oohh, I see.
17:22<TartarusMkII>Are there any AIs you'd suggest? For a novice player to play with? =o
17:23<FLHerne>Not from much personal experience, I dislike AIs interfering with my masterplan :P
17:23<FLHerne>NoCAB has a reputation for being fairly competent
17:24<FLHerne>I saw some nice screenshots of AIAI, but never tried it
17:24<FLHerne>One issue with a lot of AIs is that they don't manage save/load properly
17:24<FLHerne>So many of them will effectively die the first time you save
17:24<FLHerne>*and then load again
17:25<FLHerne>Ah, wiki page https://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs#Features
17:25<TartarusMkII>OH thankyou
17:25<TartarusMkII>and so they are not capable of being reloaded?
17:25<TartarusMkII>oh nvm Isee.
17:25<TartarusMkII>thanks!
17:26<TartarusMkII>Much appreciated.
17:27<FLHerne>The game allows for it, but several AIs don't do it properly :P
17:28<TartarusMkII>mhmm
17:32<FLHerne>If you wanted to play other people, Reddit S1 still seems to have some people awake
17:34<TartarusMkII>Nah,. I'm content to learn and refine techniques for the fun of it for now
17:35<TartarusMkII>I do appreciate it though.
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17:35<TartarusMkII>DO you play multiplayer any, FLHerne?
17:35<FLHerne>Occasionally, mostly I go for excessive pseudorealism in SP though
17:36-!-mczapkie [~mczapkie@acou191.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
17:36<mczapkie>Good evening
17:36<TartarusMkII>I like the challenge of games like this along with the freedom part
17:36<FLHerne>mczapkie: Ahoy
17:37<TartarusMkII>I've been wondering how MP works, gameplay wise
17:38<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: On unscripted servers, people mostly just build past each other
17:38<FLHerne>Sometimes collaborate to grow certain towns or compete for industries, but usually not
17:38<TartarusMkII>What would scripts change?
17:38<FLHerne>Some of the busier servers use GameScripts to add goals/challenges/rankings
17:39<TartarusMkII>I see
17:39<FLHerne>And that tends to push more competition and/or collaboration depending on what the goals actually are
17:40<TartarusMkII>That sounds fun
17:40<TartarusMkII>how long do these MP games go fo?
17:40<TartarusMkII>for*
17:43<FLHerne>Usually 100 years or so?
17:44<FLHerne>Which is about 24 hours
17:44<TartarusMkII>damn, that's interesting.
17:44<mczapkie>usually servers are stopped, if nobody is logged, so it can last longer
17:44<TartarusMkII>ah that makes sense.
17:45<TartarusMkII>I'm so impressed with this community!
17:45<FLHerne>mczapkie: Depends, reddit S1 hardly ever does :P
17:45<FLHerne>nvm, I read your message slightly wrong
17:47<mczapkie>of course, my statement is valid in case of not overpopulated servers :)
17:49<mczapkie>Does anybody know, how to set properly mercurial communication with dev.openttdcoop.org using RSA key?
17:50<mczapkie>I still have user/password question if I try tu push
17:51<mczapkie>RSA was send via support issue and was replaced
17:51<TartarusMkII>What are Waypoints useful for in Rails
17:52<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: You send trains via them
17:52<FLHerne>In case you want to force them to take a certain route or use certain platforms
17:53<TartarusMkII>interesting. I can't imagine any set up that'd make use of one though
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17:56<FLHerne>This is my only waypoint atm http://i.imgur.com/EMOm3Xf.png
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17:57<FLHerne>It forces grain trains to travel via the station, rather than using the rather steep line to the east
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17:58<FLHerne>Stations have a high pathfinder penalty, so trains will do some quite nasty things to avoid going through them
17:58<TartarusMkII>huh interesting
17:58<TartarusMkII>Thanks!
17:58<FLHerne>Other common uses are if you have a station at say a factory, and you're both picking up and dropping cargo
17:59<TartarusMkII>how so?
17:59<FLHerne>You don't want to be in a situation where all platforms are filled with loading trains, because then no more cargo can be delivered and everything jams
18:00<FLHerne>One option is just to have two stations, the other is to use a waypoint to restrict loading trains to a subset of the platforms
18:00<FLHerne>In that case, using a depot as a magic buffer can be helpful too (and replace the waypoint in such a setup)
18:00<FLHerne>That sentence was a bit incoherent, oh well
18:03<TartarusMkII>thats interesting, I think Isee
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18:17<TartarusMkII>What tells a train what trrain depot to go to if you tell it to go to one?
18:17<TartarusMkII>My trains just never go to the closest one..
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>"closest" by pathfinder penalties
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18:18<TartarusMkII>that's weird, the train passed a depot, then went through a station then much track to another depot..
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>also, if you use path signals, the search starts at the end of the current reservation, not the position of the train
18:20<Wolf01>'night
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18:20<TartarusMkII>ah okay good to know
18:20<TartarusMkII>thanks!
18:29<TartarusMkII>http://gyazo.com/ef1b6a344d2cc6783c6f125a3e62d94f
18:29<TartarusMkII>look, it won't stop lol
18:29<TartarusMkII>even with semaphores on the line, this train is insisting on riding past the depot at Tachburk Manor, down to Jesburk Manor
18:29<TartarusMkII>but for what reason???
18:29<TartarusMkII>that train never -ever- has to go to Jesburk
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18:30<TartarusMkII>so much time is wasted, I may simply lose the game because of this
18:31<TartarusMkII>I see what is happening, when the train goes to Tachburk from the north, it's reserving space all along the tracks until that last depot, and the train to the south can't run.
18:31<TartarusMkII>But why is it reserving tracks so far away from the station it's stopping at? There are plenty of signals all along the tracks..
18:31<TartarusMkII>they are Path signals.
18:33<LadyHawk>im not sure without seeing anything but if there's even a single signal missing that somehow connects the tracks together.. it will do that
18:33<TartarusMkII>I sent a screen shot via gyazo
18:33<LadyHawk>not will.. it can
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>TartarusMkII: are the signals in the other direction?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>i can't decipher anything on this picture
18:34<TartarusMkII>apologizes.
18:34<TartarusMkII>http://gyazo.com/5690bf4f77489cdf460282a0ac3d4d3f
18:34<TartarusMkII>They are facing a direction, yea. I did not think it mattered with path signals
18:35<LadyHawk>come from the wrong direction and they either 'don't exist' for the train or tells train 'oh wtf am i? *full turn*'
18:36<LadyHawk>not played with newest updates i dont know if the behaviour has changed
18:36<TartarusMkII>never before have I ever noticed any behavior with path signals and their facing
18:36<TartarusMkII>but I'll try
18:36<TartarusMkII>Yea, that did wrk
18:36<TartarusMkII>but I don't understand why. I guess I had path signals all wrong.
18:40<LadyHawk>trains try to 'think' for themselves, so there'll be no set way of things screwing up, it'll be random
18:42<LadyHawk>i used to have a huge network with loads of trains and just watch 1 junction for hours.. i'm that sad =)
18:43<TartarusMkII>lol
18:45<LadyHawk>with so many variables, sooner or later i'd always find a train behave strange
18:45<LadyHawk>:D
18:48<LadyHawk>gotta admit though.. knowing you did the signals wrong for a while, and only now realised something was off... they're quite clever
18:48<LadyHawk>:p
18:49<TartarusMkII>I wish I understood better
18:49<TartarusMkII>it says path signals let them occupy the same space as long as there's room ahead. And that they can be passed from behind
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18:50<TartarusMkII>how can I make path signals that work both ways? Like if trains want to share ONE track (but wouldn't ever colide?)
18:50<TartarusMkII>I guess they can't..
18:50<TartarusMkII>or well, no..
18:50<TartarusMkII>what about a train that has to go back and forth..
18:52<LadyHawk>always need 2... 1 for one way, and 1 for the way back
18:53<LadyHawk>whenever both ways go over a single line, there wont be 2 trains running
18:53<TartarusMkII>oh I forgot I could put two there.. duh
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>TartarusMkII: that likely will make two trains stuck waiting for the other to clear the track
18:57<TartarusMkII>I know what you mean, but I feel like I have to do it for the sake of one station that trains have to go in and out of
18:57<TartarusMkII>but I have a better understanding of it now at least.
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23:45<Pikkaphone>pew pew
23:46<JezK>shinkansen are fun! :3
23:46<JezK>also most profitable!
23:46<JezK>until I built an international airport then immediately went bankrupt due to the maintenance cost.
23:47<Supercheese>dem airportz
23:47<JezK>seems maintenance costs should be less than the cost of building it in the first place
23:47<Supercheese>You can use Av8 and its parameter to make the maintenance a bit less excessive
23:49<JezK>how do you change newgrf parameters?
23:49<Supercheese>well, it is best done only just before starting a new game
23:49<Supercheese>it is possible to do so in a running game, but may introduce issues
23:50<JezK>ahh found it https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Settings
23:50<JezK>missed that option
23:50<Supercheese>but clicking the newgrf in the active column there has parameter settings, yeah like that
23:51<JezK>thanks
23:54<Pikkaphone>silly infrastructure maintenance
23:56<JezK>i don't mind the idea in theory
23:56<JezK>but the values seemed way off on those airports
---Logclosed Tue May 05 00:00:01 2015