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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-10

---Logopened Sun May 10 00:00:28 2015
---Daychanged Sun May 10 2015
00:00<ST2>well, that's a nice excuse when you can't make more profit that a competitor... but ok. we're fine :P
00:03<kamnet>:P
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00:06<TartarusMkII>how are trams cheaty? =o
00:06<ST2>btw kamnet, about empty servers (or non empty ones): always hard to check. but before start recommending servers to new players, check the servers reliability 1st - and ofc, the community (it matters only on numbers and efforts ppl do to keep them running)
00:07<kamnet>I recommended a server to somebody?
00:07<ST2>that was a fast read xD
00:09<kamnet>Only server communities I'm aware of are openttd coop, reddit, and novopolis. I played on reddit once. That's about all I know about 'em.
00:09<ST2>really?
00:10<ST2>what about the community that holds 30% of the players now?
00:10<ST2>well, how can you miss that?
00:11<ST2>unless you're being tendentious, and that was my thoughts at the time
00:12<ST2>hopefully, won't happen again :)
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00:15<ST2>I guess kamnet is googling a bunch now :P
00:17<ST2>because missing "n-ice" and "btpro" communities means kamnet doesn't play online OpenTTD and therefore his opinions worth as that xD
00:17<ST2>btw, novapolis gonna end
00:18<ST2>thx for your silence kamnet ;)
00:19<kamnet>Sorry I was called away. GF wanted some ice cream :D
00:19<ST2>np :)
00:19<ST2>I know the feeling xD
00:19<kamnet>Yeah I'm not an online player at all. I don't typically have a lot of time, plus I'm spoiled by patchpacks and as many newgrfs as I can cram in the game
00:21<ST2>anyway, a hint: next time before suggest gamepark or reddit, inform yourself about the existent OpenTTD communities
00:22<ST2>people work on provide games to ttd players and dnt need tendentious suggestions
00:25<kamnet>I see btpro and n-ice advertised once in awhile, just doesn't come to first in mind simply because I'm not part of those communities. I am on reddit, and typically I mention coop since enough of the devs mention it pretty frequently
00:25<kamnet>No attempting to sligt any other groups.
00:26<ST2>well, at least keep tunned about OpenTTD communities - some come and go
00:26<ST2>it's normal
00:27<kamnet>I wasn't evne aware that there was a presence on twitch until last week. A spot I've only visited once as well LOL
00:27-!-Pikka [~Octomom@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
00:28<ST2>some players make twitch casts
00:28<ST2>but none community do it as a basis
00:28<ST2>it's impossible :S
00:28<ST2>at least for what I know ^^
00:29<supermop>i want ice cream kamnet
00:29<kamnet>I don't know nothing. Just ask Pikka
00:29<kamnet>I got a freezer full, supermop. Help yerself
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00:30<ST2>I guess supermop was asking for the part where beers are cooling - but that's none of my business :P
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00:37<TartarusMkII>https://gamejolt.com/games/shooter/super-wolfenstein-hd-now-with-realistic-physics/39194/
00:37<supermop>so my 3d printed coffee grinder bracket works, but is too wobbly
00:38<supermop>dont know why i thought two points of attachment would be enough
00:39<supermop>ever used maxwell V453000 ?
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01:11<kamnet>Now I want ice cream
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01:26<andythenorth>o/
01:27<supermop>yo andy
01:27<Supercheese>well what do you know, an andy
01:29<kamnet>Any needs help. He needs 64 new industries to put into FIRS Full.
01:31<andythenorth>@calc 128-51
01:31<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 77
01:31<andythenorth>^ that many
01:32<kamnet>You'll never fill it. You'll be bored silly just hitting 45
01:32<andythenorth>also
01:33<andythenorth>it would be horrible
01:33<andythenorth>Pikka what larks?
01:35<kamnet>Restaurants
01:39<kamnet>We could fill all 77 with restaurant chains
01:39<andythenorth>are places you can go with people when you wish to eat
01:40<andythenorth>I should rename Iron Horse
01:40<andythenorth>UKRS 3
01:40<andythenorth>then it would get more downloads
01:40<kamnet>LOL
01:40<andythenorth>everybody hates Iron Horse
01:40<andythenorth>nvm
01:41<andythenorth>it’s not foamer-ish enough I guess
01:41<Pikka>silly foamers
01:41<andythenorth>also
01:42<andythenorth>it’s a “known fact” that players hate ships
01:42<andythenorth>yet the ships grfs are just about the most popular thing since free sliced bread
01:43<Pikka>hmm
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01:51<TartarusMkII>o/
02:00<supermop>maybe they hate default ships?
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02:33<Pikka>ships are difficult to make interesting, they have so few properties to differentiate. And they have no network limits - you can pile in as many ships to a route as you need.
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02:42<kamnet>If we can just get them faster than 127 kph you could have A LOT of fun with shis
02:42<kamnet>I mean, ekranoplans
02:42<kamnet>and hydrofoils
02:44<TartarusMkII>Are helicopters useful?
02:45<TartarusMkII>I realize that with my settings, airports are very expensive to run
02:45<TartarusMkII>and trains are expensve to run =c
02:45<TartarusMkII>idk how to make it worth it to run a small airport (small because it's before you'd have more profitable planes I guess?
02:48<kamnet>I need to research useful helicopters
02:49<TartarusMkII>=o
02:49<kamnet>I just recently posted some useful VTOLs
02:49<kamnet>stats for them anyhow
02:50<Pikka>I somehow don't think very fast boats will be much more interesting than slow ones... and commercial hydrofoils run much slower than 127 km/h ;)
02:53<kamnet>VTOLs: I found 20 that I thought were useful enough to put in the game (min 4 passengers or 1 ton of cargo capacity), and half of them can move over a dozen people.
02:54<Supercheese>I once tried to make the Fairey Rotodyne
02:54<Supercheese>sprites turned out shit though
02:54<Pikka>minimum useful capacity for an aircraft in OpenTTD is probably about 30-50, imo.
02:58<andythenorth>dibble dibble dibble
02:58<Pikka>dobble dobble dobble
02:59<andythenorth>what does it all mean? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/spritelayouts_groundaware.pnml
03:00<andythenorth>seems to only be used by forest
03:01<Pikka>only free-form-land multi-climate industry?
03:01<andythenorth>apparently
03:03<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:14<TartarusMkII>Morning
03:18<andythenorth>ugly FIRS fruit plantation
03:24<@Alberth>moin
03:26<TartarusMkII>Morning
03:26<TartarusMkII>so I am curious, what if the benefit of Trams?
03:26<TartarusMkII>I am experimenting with the,
03:26<TartarusMkII>but they seem a bit more expensive than busses in most cases, and also require the rail line to be built
03:26<andythenorth>there are no benefits
03:27<TartarusMkII>Then why have them? =o I can understand that the coolness comes at a premium, but they almost seem pointless in that sense (unless I totally misunderstand which I think I am)
03:29<andythenorth>what are the benefits to buses?
03:29<Pikka>what advantages or disadvantages trams have depends on the newgrf
03:29<Pikka>there are no default trams, so there's no default answer :)
03:29<andythenorth>there’s no design to the game
03:30<andythenorth>lack of any design puzzles people :)
03:30<andythenorth>especially the logically-minded people who like train games
03:30*andythenorth ponders a Dwarf Fortress GS
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03:32*andythenorth has never played Dwarf Fortress, but why would that stop me?
03:34<TartarusMkII>Q_Q
03:34<TartarusMkII>but why build the tram lines over roads instead of just making roads and cars lol
03:35<@Alberth>the reason is different for everybody
03:35<Supercheese>"realisms"
03:35<@Alberth>if you don't want trams, don't use them
03:36<TartarusMkII>=c I am not complaining, I am asking for suggestions
03:36<andythenorth>try HEQS
03:36<V453000>functionality too :) trams often have more capacity, and combining them with oneway traffic is great too
03:36<Supercheese>trams can have higher passenger capacities
03:36<Supercheese>also HEQS is just kewl
03:36<Supercheese>not for pax though
03:36<andythenorth>no, HEQS is an abomination
03:36<V453000>not to mention controlling them by tracks which can differ from roads
03:36<TartarusMkII>How do you mean about combining them with one way traffic?
03:36<andythenorth>HEQS is so many kinds of wrong
03:37<TartarusMkII>WHats wrong with HEQS, andy?
03:37<V453000>cars obey 1-way roads, trams dont have to
03:37<andythenorth>the design is all wrong
03:37<andythenorth>the sprites are bad
03:37<andythenorth>and it’s written in nfo, hard to maintain
03:37<andythenorth>not sure I can even compile it anymore
03:37<Supercheese>well, the nfo thing is true enough
03:37<@Alberth>I had an idea for a GS, you 'buy' an industry, which basically means you get a large money drain on your hands, which you must fix by giving the industry work
03:37<andythenorth>Alberth: that worked in Railroad Tycoon
03:37<andythenorth>purchase cost, annual running cost
03:38<andythenorth>how to calculate income though?
03:38<TartarusMkII>How would you guys rate HEQS balance as far as cost of stuff relative to the base line?
03:38<@Alberth>TartarusMkII: none
03:39<Supercheese>well, HEQS stuff is generally really cheap, but you can always adjust it by parameter
03:39<andythenorth>I would rate it as ‘adjustable’ :D
03:39<TartarusMkII>none? I'm sorry, I don't understand.
03:39<TartarusMkII>oh okay
03:39<TartarusMkII>good good.
03:39<TartarusMkII>Thanks
03:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: you can monitor transport from/to an industry afaik
03:41<TartarusMkII>What is Heart of Darkness setting for FIRS? lol
03:42<@Alberth>it's a different economy
03:42<TartarusMkII>do tell? =O
03:42<@Alberth>each economy gives different sets of industries with different cargoes
03:42<@Alberth>basic economies are good for learning FIRS
03:43<TartarusMkII>Well I notice that there is a tropical and subarctic, so I'd think that they are not compatible with eachother- but Heart of Darkness? =o
03:43<Supercheese>HoD has coffee and such and stuff
03:43<TartarusMkII>oh so it's difficult?
03:43<@Alberth>HoD is aimed at 'exporting'
03:43<Supercheese>it's, well, caffeinated
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03:47<TartarusMkII>=[]
03:53<andythenorth>Alberth: so award income based on cargo collected?
03:55<@Alberth>or output produced
03:55<andythenorth>cargo collecting is easy to grief :)
03:57<@Alberth>it's perhaps a bit like SV, but with the extra problem that postponing is going to cost money
03:58<andythenorth>have to keep the plates spinning
04:02<V453000>what have you guys invented again? :"P
04:03<andythenorth>Alberth: do you ‘buy’ the industry?
04:03<supermop>V453000: ever used maxwell?
04:03<andythenorth>or do you get it assigned to you?
04:03<V453000>I have heard the word but I dont even know what it is supermop
04:03<supermop>renderer
04:03<@Alberth>don't know, buy is perhaps better
04:03<V453000>nope then :)
04:03<supermop>trying to use it on a trial know, don't have the hang of it yet
04:04<andythenorth>“Old King Coal”
04:04<supermop>alternative to v ray
04:04<andythenorth>deliver to power stations :P
04:04<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_King_Cole
04:04<supermop>seems photometric
04:04<V453000>mhm
04:04<V453000>cycles in blender seem great if you want something cheap
04:04<andythenorth>when andythenorth was involved in CGI, we spent most of our time looking for *non* photorealism :P
04:05<andythenorth>and not toon shaders either
04:05<V453000>idk, I am kind of skeptical about importance of renderer
04:05<supermop>i am pretty close to just subcontracting this out, im spending most of my time just trying to figure out what to use rather than modelling or rendering
04:05<V453000>just grab one and learn it :) if it is any good, it will work fine
04:05<V453000>as I said, for me Vray is key not just because of what nice image it spews out, but because of the extra functions
04:06<V453000>mental ray is great built-in in max/maya
04:06<Flygon>OpenTTD needs more dancing babies
04:06<Flygon>That's my contribution ton the CGI discussion
04:06<supermop>andythenorth: if i were still in school or running my own shop i would certtainly not go for photorealism, but my client thinks his potential investors and customers will want it
04:06<V453000>ye
04:06<V453000>thats normal :)
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04:07<supermop>idk im fine with the slightly too clean flamingo renders that im more or less already familiar with
04:07<andythenorth>I frigging hate my use of mercurial
04:07<andythenorth>my repo is fucked again
04:07<andythenorth>:(
04:07<supermop>im sure enough time and i could get something closer to realistic out of it
04:08<andythenorth>it’s not safe in hg to do even trivial things like ‘hg up [previous rev]'
04:08<andythenorth>I am way too stupid to use hg
04:09<V453000>flamingo doesnt look too great to me, but if it works for you ... :)
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04:10<supermop>well for me it is free
04:10<Wolf01>hi hi
04:10<supermop>because i already own it
04:10<supermop>thats the only advantage it has for me
04:11<supermop>should have modelling this space in revit
04:11*andythenorth brutally cleans the repo
04:11<V453000>well, all the revit/cad-ish workflow is probably the future of archviz
04:11<supermop>then i could easily just hand it off to a rendering subcontractor with a list of materials and let them render it all up
04:12<V453000>mhm
04:12<supermop>as well as have a nice set of construction documents all ready to go for my portfolio
04:12<TartarusMkII>I haven't gotten very fari nto the game yet- do things like rails, roads, and tram tracks change in appearance over tiem?
04:12<supermop>instead of drawing those up in acad later
04:13<supermop>you think i could source 3 interior renders for around $800 USD each?
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04:15<V453000>:d maxwell is cheap for sketchup
04:15<TartarusMkII>errr, I think trams can overlap and stack on top of eachother at their stations? hm.
04:15<V453000>go see if you can export your cads into sketchup :P
04:16<andythenorth>road vehicles overlap and stack
04:16<V453000>which is wtf.
04:16<TartarusMkII>really? I thought they can't pass eachther at in-line statons
04:19<TartarusMkII>Ah and I see most trams are slower than cars, that's cool
04:20<TartarusMkII>oo, cute Forklift, hauls 2 crates of goods XD
04:20*andythenorth won’t be adding that to Road Hog
04:21<andythenorth>"all my regrets”
04:23<Supercheese>forklift was for back when FIRS had a different supplies scheme
04:24<TartarusMkII>how so? I'm very interested
04:29<TartarusMkII>hm my AIs keep crashing..
04:43<supermop>yeah i saw that re: sketchup V453000
04:43<supermop>limited resolution though
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04:50<andythenorth>bbl
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04:54<supermop>i could use single track tramway at times
04:56<supermop>also,
04:56<supermop>late trams running behind an on time tram are screwed
04:57<supermop>because even if you have a loop station at end of line, and enough time there for it to catch up and pass the tram ahead,
04:58<supermop>once they start following right on the tail of the tram ahead, they seem not to make the correct pathfinder decisions
04:59<supermop>eg they go around the loop the same way as the tram in front, on the tail, rather than the opposite way which would allow them to pass in the station
04:59<supermop>i'm only able to fix these cases by having the on time tram in front duck into a depot
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05:00<supermop>either tram termini or timetabled wait in depot would fix
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05:48<@planetmaker>moin moin
05:50<supermop>yo
05:53<frosch123>hoi :)
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06:24<Pikka>moin boin
06:32<Taede>moin
06:38<@planetmaker>anything I should take a look at which I missed in the last 2 weeks?
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06:56<@planetmaker>o/
07:09<@Rubidium>1.5.1-RC1 ?
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07:12<@blathijs>Heh, just finished packaging 1.5.0! :-p
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08:01<titch>hello. when i try to replace mass amounts of road vehicles, why is it that when the type of vehicle is the only one available it dosent come up to allow the replacement?
08:03<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Autoreplace#Autoreplace https://wiki.openttd.org/Autorenew#Autorenew <- autoreplace and autorenew are different things with different interfaces
08:03<Pikka>you can't replace a vehicle with itself. if you want vehicles to be rebuilt, search for autorenew in the game settings. doesn't it, frosch123 .
08:04<titch>ahh
08:06<titch>that has helped. thanks all :D
08:07<titch>will it tell me if the vehicle is no longer in production for the autorenew?
08:07<Pikka>yes it will
08:09<titch>cheers :D
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09:29<Johnnei>frosch123: Should I inform you when I double post on tickets?
09:29<frosch123>no, i get notifications anyway
09:29<Johnnei>Alright
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10:43<kamnet>Good morning to all. Happy Mother's Day for those who are celebrating.
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12:46<@Alberth>hi hi
12:46<@Alberth>oh noes, station ratings are global!
12:49<andythenorth>I might make them apply to only FIRS stations
12:49*andythenorth is just 203 varadic macros away from killing c-pre-processor in FIRS
12:50<andythenorth>they are the 203 difficult ones of course :)
12:50<@Alberth>hopefully they share some structure :)
12:50<andythenorth>yes
12:51<@Alberth>can you make station ratings specific to a newgrf?
12:51<andythenorth>I think I’m possibly beyond TMWFTLB already on refactoring
12:51<andythenorth>nah, station ratings are global AIUI
12:52<@Alberth>only for specific cargo could be fun :p
12:55<andythenorth>patient passengers?
12:55<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Custom_station_rating_calculation_.28145.29
12:56<andythenorth>looks like it is per cargo
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: refactoring is always negative on the "benefit" scale, if you count immediate effect on number of features
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>you do refactoring for the long term effects
12:58<andythenorth>it gets interesting when you can look in the crystal ball and think ‘this sprite layout probably won’t change in next 5 years’
12:58<andythenorth>so does it matter if it uses new unified method, or old custom method
12:58<andythenorth>etc
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>if you know it won't change, there's no point in refactoring :p
12:59<andythenorth>I shall add that comment at the top of my ‘list of TMWFTLB changes’
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but there's a point at "x% likelyhood it will change", where refactoring leads to benefits
13:00<andythenorth>I think there’s a few more things I should do, then it’s done
13:01<andythenorth>I already now have: most industries will single industry compile (for testing); cargo IDs no longer have to be interleaved; codebase is smaller; compile is faster
13:02<andythenorth>also 4 common industry templates, which most of the 66 industries use
13:02<andythenorth>instead of 66 industry templates
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13:03<andythenorth>maybe I should do some features? o_O
13:10*andythenorth wants to fix clustering
13:20<andythenorth>I think it doesn’t scale correctly with map / number of industry types defined
13:21<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69
13:23<andythenorth>I can’t see any map scaling code at all for clusters
13:27<@Alberth>looks that way
13:28<@Alberth>unless it's in mult/div
13:29<andythenorth>they’re just magic numbers
13:29<andythenorth>I’m sure pre-nml FIRS scaled by map size
13:29<andythenorth>but I haven’t dug through the repo to find it
13:29<andythenorth>about 2500 revs ago :)
13:30<andythenorth>dunno, seems like there should be n clusters per 256x256 area
13:30<andythenorth>or so
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13:34<sleezio>hello, haven't played(installed) openttd in about 2 yrs, just went to website and downloaded latest 1.5.0 version, but when trying to install, i see i'm missing libicu48, but i don't see a valid libicu48 for (x)ubuntu 14.04
13:38<frosch123>if the ubuntu 14.04 package does not work on xubuntu (which would be silly), then try the generic linux binary
13:38<sleezio>doh, nevermind, i somehow clicked the wrong download link
13:40<andythenorth>what’s the objective with clustering?
13:40*andythenorth has lost sight of the point :)
13:41<frosch123>feeder services
13:44<andythenorth>also big trains
13:44<andythenorth>once fed
13:45<sleezio>ok, i can't remember the name of this gfx pack, anyone know? http://media.spidersweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/openttd.png
13:48<frosch123>the ugly skyscrapers are from ttrs
13:48<sleezio>thanks
13:54<andythenorth>people like shiny
13:54<andythenorth>trinkets
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15:03<kamnet>Mother.
15:03<kamnet>There is no other.
15:03<kamnet>So you betta treat her right.
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17:30<DanMacK>Hey all
17:35<Wolf01>'night
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19:12<kamnet>Hey Mister DanMackK !
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19:33<TartarusMkII>Hello everyone, I wanted to ask, last night someone said HEQS's forklifts were a vestige of how FIRS used to work- I was wondering if anyone would tell me more about it out of curiosity, and if a forklift (carries 3 units of goods in capacity) is still useful at all? I think theyre cute
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19:46<Supercheese>see: https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=FIRS&oldid=80490#Supply_Orders
19:47<TartarusMkII>Ah
19:47<TartarusMkII>is this still current, then?
19:47<TartarusMkII>Or is this somehow out dated?
19:48<Supercheese>very outdated
19:48<Supercheese>supply mechanics were completely overhauled a while back
19:48<Supercheese>forklifts are now fairly useless
19:48<Supercheese>relegated to eyecandy
19:49<TartarusMkII>darn okay
19:49<TartarusMkII>I appreciate it!
19:53<kamnet>Somebodyshould write a whole new update
19:53<TartarusMkII>hmm, I am reading the actual FIRS documents, and I see lots of singular descriptions of stuff, but not explanations of mechanics, or tips or anything.
19:55<kamnet>Andy outsourced the documentation to YETI dudes.
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>but they spent all their time riding flatcars, and didn't bother working?
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20:06<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: New FIRS mechanics are nice and simple in themselves
20:07<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: You deliver some supplies, you get 2x production. Lots of supplies, 4x production.
20:08<FLHerne>For secondaries, you get a unit per [n] units of [type] delivered, plus a bonus for multiple types
20:09<FLHerne>Old-style FIRS measured supplies per month (rather than per three months as now), and didn't care how many supplies you delivered
20:09<FLHerne>So the 'optimal' supply method was lots of tiny vehicles, to ensure there was always a delivery each month
20:10<FLHerne>That's still true in a smaller way for the multiple-cargos boost on secondary industries, but not so much
20:11<FLHerne>Tips - Note existence of the industry-chain buttons ingame if you haven't already
20:11<TartarusMkII>oh okay awesome, yea
20:11<TartarusMkII>then I already know what I need to know.
20:11<FLHerne>Form primary -> secondary -> supplies -> primary loops, so you get plenty of cargo
20:11<TartarusMkII>All I am really missing is ideas or examples of optimal early or mid game set ups
20:12<FLHerne>Don't bother with goods or any other 'delivered' cargo that doesn't ultimately end up in supplies until you have supply loops running
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>optimal early [if you ignore passengers]: any primary to any secondary. optimal mid-game: set up some supplies->primary feedback loops
20:14<TartarusMkII>often, it seems, on 512 x 512 maps, I can't find all the things to a chain. I usually try to work with the metal foundries
20:14<FLHerne>FIRS has lots and lots and lots of chains, most of which duplicate each other to some extent :P
20:14<TartarusMkII>or, I spend way too much money on gettign the materials to the mill. Thats why I am tryign to avoid rail for a bit, and learn to use shorter range means to group up more thigns so only one train can take the ass load of it all
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>the game tries to put at least one of each industry
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>[that is available at this time]
20:15<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: For that bit, station-refit helps if your train/ship sets support it :-)
20:15<TartarusMkII>right right
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>some industries only show up after a certain date
20:15<TartarusMkII>how so, FLHerne?
20:16<FLHerne>Say you're serving a steel mill, you can truck coal/iron/scrap into your railhead/dock
20:17<FLHerne>Most sets consider those as the same category, so a train/ship with 'refit to any' will pick up all of them
20:17<FLHerne>Saves having to have different vehicle pools per cargo
20:18<TartarusMkII>hmm that is interesting. I've never seen refit to any though. Like, I've always had to manually refit a train to pick up coal, or iron, or scrap?
20:21<FLHerne>http://i.imgur.com/DpbULw0.png Same group, same leg of order, carrying five different cargos :-)
20:22<TartarusMkII>huh, how u do dis =o!
20:22<FLHerne>In the orders, there's a "station refit" button for vehicles that support it (most recent sets, not the default vehicles)
20:23<TartarusMkII>so you'd order them to, say, drop off cargo at the mill, then refit to 'any', then go pick stuff up at its rounds? or whut
20:23<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: It's on the options for a station
20:24<TartarusMkII>sec, I'll start up the game and check it out
20:24<FLHerne>So "goto loading point, wait for any full load with refit to available cargo" "goto factory, unload all, no loading"
20:25<FLHerne>If you enable cargodist for freight you can do even more fun things, but most people consider that to be utterly insane :P
20:25<TartarusMkII>and it'll automatically refit to carry as much as it can, or like, an equal distribution?
20:25<FLHerne>Or at least fiddly and confusing
20:25<TartarusMkII>yea I saw cargodist for passengers and I decided to keep it off.
20:25<TartarusMkII>At least until Im better at the game
20:25<TartarusMkII>I -do- enjoy complexity, though.
20:26<FLHerne>If there's cargo waiting, and there's an empty vehicle that can refit to carry it, it'll refit to carry it
20:26<FLHerne>RVs/ships can only carry one cargo at a time, trains can carry one cargo per wagon
20:26<TartarusMkII>what if there is 200t of iron and 50t of coal at a station? Will it like, take all the iron and forget the coal if there's no more room?
20:27<FLHerne>You should definitely turn it on for passengers
20:27<FLHerne>Yes, afaik
20:27<TartarusMkII>Maybe I have wrong assumptions about it- can you tell me more about what cargo dist does?
20:27<FLHerne>On the other hand, you;ll have trains coming back that were refitted to coal before
20:27<FLHerne>So generally it works fairly well unless your system is totally overloaded
20:28<FLHerne>It [has the effect of] giving each passenger (or cargo unit) a particular station it 'wants' to reach
20:28<FLHerne>It'll only try to send passengers from a station to a station that they can reach via your existing services
20:29<FLHerne>(brackets above because technically it doesn't, it does magic that makes it look like it does that :P)
20:29<FLHerne>For passengers, this is enormously better than "get off at the next stop"
20:30<FLHerne>Because it makes having an integrated network with buses etc actually useful
20:31<TartarusMkII>hm can you give me an example with passengers? like, with busses?
20:31<FLHerne>e.g. passengers from city-centre bus stops will, instead of just getting off at the next stop, decide they want to go to the beach on another continent by catching the airport bus, flying, then changing trains twice
20:33<FLHerne>http://i.imgur.com/huhwBvj.png
20:34<FLHerne>http://i.imgur.com/zuKHU04.png <- cargo flow legend
20:35<FLHerne>You can see the inner-city bus/tram/metro networks
20:35<FLHerne>What passengers tend to do is catch a bus or two to the rail station, catch a train across the map, then a bus to somewhere else
20:36<FLHerne>Of course, sometimes they really do just want to go to the next stop
20:36<TartarusMkII>hmm..;
20:37<TartarusMkII>is that cargo flow vanilla? I've never noticed it
20:37<FLHerne>Yes, see 'Cargo flow legend' under the map menu
20:37<TartarusMkII>cool
20:37<TartarusMkII>I'm sort of confused though
20:37<TartarusMkII>How does this work IN PRACTICE? If I make two cities have their own bus service, will people who want to go to the city just build up?
20:37<TartarusMkII>do I have to make special lines go everywhere, or?..
20:38<FLHerne>The colours are a measure of route (over)loading
20:38<FLHerne>Passengers only want to go to places they can get to by your network
20:38<FLHerne>They'll prefer to take the shortest possible route, but if that's heavily overloaded they take others
20:39<TartarusMkII>that's interesting
20:39<TartarusMkII>so how does it work with cargo? I've never actually noticed a setting foir cargo
20:39<FLHerne>It does mean that if you have two large cities near each other, it's a good idea to have a direct mainline between them so that they don't take a roundabout route and clog up everything
20:40<FLHerne>(preferred destinations are weighted (optionally) by distance)
20:40<FLHerne>Pretty much the same, cargo will 'want' to go to a particular industry
20:40<FLHerne>Well, to a particular station, which is mostly the same thing
20:40<TartarusMkII>So in practice, I'd really want busses that load/unload casually along a route of terminals?
20:40<TartarusMkII>also, does this look right?
20:40<TartarusMkII>http://gyazo.com/d188f4d799151fa1ecdc036b46530096
20:40<TartarusMkII>I feel like soemthing is missing
20:41<FLHerne>'manual' effectively means 'off' ;-)
20:42<FLHerne>Pax should be symmetric (try to have equal numbers of passengers going in both directions on each route)
20:42<FLHerne>Cargo should never be symmetric, because sending equal amounts of coal back to the mine makes no sense
20:43<FLHerne>TartarusMkII: Generally, the best networks for cargodist end up looking something like a mesh
20:44<FLHerne>Or actually, mine tend to be small bus-network meshes attached to nodes on the big rail-network mesh
20:44<FLHerne>The reason being that if you have a purely linear network, you have far more traffic in the middle than at the ends
20:45<FLHerne>Because in a network A-B-C-D, the A-B link is only used by passengers from A to B/C/D
20:45<FLHerne>Whereas B-C is used by A-C/D and also B-C/D
20:45<FLHerne>You can make it work like that, but easier not to
20:46<TartarusMkII>so technically a circle would be most 'efficient' of a web?
20:46<TartarusMkII>if it were only 4 or 5 nodes, anyway
20:46<FLHerne>For an individual route, maybe
20:46<TartarusMkII>mhmm
20:47<FLHerne>Although that means passengers from one side to the other have to go all round the edge
20:47<TartarusMkII>what do you think I should set this other stuff to? like, recalculation, the accuracy, effect of distance on demands? hehe
20:47<FLHerne>So if it's a big circle or busy, you might want cuts across the middle
20:47<TartarusMkII>true true
20:47<FLHerne>Mostly, the defaults are sane :-)
20:48<TartarusMkII>X3
20:48<FLHerne>Increasing the effect of distance will make it behave increasingly like 'normal'
20:48<FLHerne>Making it very high will make almost all passengers want to go to the nearest station to their start point
20:48<TartarusMkII>so 100% is good? Also, should I set it to symmetrical or asymmetrical? not sure what the difference is.
20:49<TartarusMkII>oh okay I see what it does, but what would you suggest?
20:49<FLHerne>Should be symmetrical for passengers - it tries to have the same number going in each direction on a route
20:49<FLHerne>Which is logical, because you don't want all your passengers disappearing into some tiny village
20:50<FLHerne>100% is a sane default too :-)
20:50<FLHerne>If your network gets totally overloaded, turn it up (it can go >100%)
20:50<FLHerne>If your long-distance network is all empty, turn it down
20:50<TartarusMkII>Would you suggest it for mail at all? and probably not cargo yet, as I'm noobsauce status
20:51<FLHerne>Yes, since mail is just relabeled passengers IME
20:51<FLHerne>Aw, everyone runs away from cargodisting freight :-(
20:53<TartarusMkII>Well tell me more, does it get weird?
20:53<TartarusMkII>like, I struggle to find a good way to get supply chains completed to begin with XD
20:53<FLHerne>It gets very weird
20:54<FLHerne>Can be a bit more difficult early on, since you don't have quite so much control
20:54<FLHerne>Say you have three coal mines and a steel mill and a lime kiln
20:55<FLHerne>If you connect all of them up with coal trains, each mine will usually want to send some of its cargo to each of the secondaries
20:56<FLHerne>You can avoid that by setting up the network to give each mine only a connection to one industry, but that's no fun :P
20:56<TartarusMkII>hmm
20:57<FLHerne>What I tend to do is have big 'hubs' - i.e. all cargo from several primaries goes into one hub, and is then sorted out and sent off to its chosen industries
20:57<TartarusMkII>haha Iw ill experiment with it later when I have a better idea, but I feel like some of the bus systems Ive made are too strong, so I'll be glad to require a network for them
20:57<TartarusMkII>I can use trams for city bussing, and RVs for intercity, I suppose
20:57<TartarusMkII>or.. hm.. trains.
20:57<TartarusMkII>if I have two small towns linked together, then another set of two soemwhere else, then ONE train line that connects them both, is that a sufficient network?
20:58<TartarusMkII>also do I ahve to set transfers, or does picking up and dropping off simply WORK?
20:58<FLHerne>It simply WORKS :D
20:58<FLHerne>I really love CDist
20:59<FLHerne>You don't *need* a network as such
20:59<FLHerne>If you have two totally unconnected cities, passengers will just pootle around between the stops in each city
20:59<FLHerne>If you then put a train line between them, a percentage of the passengers from each city will want to go to somewhere in the other one
21:00<FLHerne>Depending on the distance and your settings
21:00<TartarusMkII>hm
21:00<TartarusMkII>so do passengers with destinations only get created in point A if there is a path to B in the first place?
21:00<TartarusMkII>so if I do have two inner city bus systems not connected, will no one ever even ask to go to the other city?
21:00<Flygon>CargoDist is a blessing and a curse
21:00<FLHerne>And what's a 'sufficient' network for that depends on how many of them there are and how big the trains are and blah
21:01<FLHerne>Exactly
21:01<Flygon>It utterly overwhelms Tram networks when a city is really roaring
21:01<FLHerne>Flygon: Yes, but then you get to build little circular metros!
21:01<Flygon>Still gotta fill the gaps the Metros don't
21:01<Flygon>And even then
21:01<Flygon>The Metros are painful to build due to the fact that... well
21:02<Flygon>You can't just plop them in underground
21:03<FLHerne>You can to an extent http://i.imgur.com/RZ0XNp5.png
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21:03<FLHerne>I find that a circular metro with radial tram lines going outward through each stop balances quite well
21:04<TartarusMkII>cute trams'r cute.
21:05<TartarusMkII>I have the dutch station GRF, and I notice it has a metro set of station squares, that make it look like stairs going down under the ground. DO these serve some kind of purpose?
21:05<FLHerne>The point I was trying to make were the little tube trains hiding in the middle (but trams are cute)
21:05<FLHerne>Nope, they just look pretty
21:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, they just look that way
21:07<FLHerne>Most of the large trainsets have some form of 'metro' train
21:08<FLHerne>Slow but high acceleration, high-capacity, very short loading/unloading times
21:08<TartarusMkII>I guess they can be used to extend other stations' passenger pick up area?
21:08<TartarusMkII>so in a bigger city, they might look like a metro, Iguess?..
21:08<FLHerne>You could, but that's sort of cheating :P
21:08<TartarusMkII>X3
21:09<TartarusMkII>By the way thanks a ton for talking to me about this, I've never played TTD, so to have people explain the mods and such makes the game so much more fun.
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21:10<FLHerne>Mostly you just use those sorts of tiles to make things look nice :-)
21:11<FLHerne>Dutch tiles for tube terminus http://i.imgur.com/jDYJytb.png
21:12<FLHerne>Perhaps if you had one station on tunnels over another one, or had it as an entrance to a subway accessed by the platform stairs?
21:13<TartarusMkII>I love that design, man
21:13<TartarusMkII>are these from your games?
21:15<FLHerne>Yes
21:16<TartarusMkII>I'd love to see more screen shots if you felt like taking them!
21:16<TartarusMkII>You make stuff look quite nice.
21:17<TartarusMkII>Any of your networks or interchanges and stuff too, or loading for industries, if you don't mind? <3!
21:18<FLHerne>I do have a screenshot thread (that I haven't updated for ages :-/ )
21:18<Supercheese>you could check out the screenshot section of the forum
21:18<FLHerne>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=58712&sid=c144844f34bb18e99f0ad76f813950f1
21:18<FLHerne>And yes, that entire subforum is probably worth looking at
21:19<FLHerne>I stole a lot of ideas from "Dr B Ching" on there, and probably unconsciously from everyone else
21:23<TartarusMkII>awesome thanks guys
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21:25<FLHerne>Aargh, it's 2am
21:25<FLHerne>Should sleep, goodnight
21:26<TartarusMkII>goodnight
21:26<TartarusMkII>thanks again!
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22:21<Flygon_>FLHerne: About that
22:21<Flygon_>It always bothered me how the Dutch set never had more 'intermediatory' tiles
22:21<Flygon_>eg. shelter
22:21-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
22:21<Flygon>As in...
22:21<Flygon>Like in the tube pic
22:33<TartarusMkII>He's long gone my friend!
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23:11<Flygon>Oh
23:11<Flygon>vittuperkele D:
23:11*Flygon goes shoots Myst Cases then
23:58<TartarusMkII>For Cargodist, do you guys prefer symmetrical or asymmetrical/>
---Logclosed Mon May 11 00:00:42 2015