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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-11

---Logopened Mon May 11 00:00:42 2015
00:01<Supercheese>I prefer manual...
00:04<TartarusMkII>how come? And I more so mean for mail and passengers rather than cargo
00:04<Pikka>symmetrical for passengers and mail, asymmetrical for freight. :)
00:05<TartarusMkII>why for freight?
00:06<Sylf>cargodist makes me pull my hair. My hair's already getting thin without the added stress.
00:07<JezK>i've been using asymmetrical, but i don't really understand the difference
00:08<JezK>Sylf, it seems to make more sense to me than the default system
00:08<JezK>stuff wants to go to a place, get it there
00:08<Sylf>we play very different style of game.
00:10<JezK>the only time i get stressed is when signals aren't doing what i think they should be doing
00:15<TartarusMkII>I notice that a lot of FLHerne's screenshots involve some kinds of stations that actually show items on the platforms
00:15<TartarusMkII>like stones, grain, or even what looks like tiny people?
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00:17<JezK>hmm i know the japanese stations do that, it's cute
00:17<Supercheese>some stations do that, like ISR
00:17<Supercheese>and mb's NewStations
00:19<TartarusMkII>does it know what is supposed to be there? =O
00:19<TartarusMkII>And I can't find "Newstations"
00:21<kamnet>MB's NewStations are on his own website. Which I'll have to Google for :D
00:25<kamnet>There we go. Yeah making stations show cargo or people are a pain, so most coders don't bother with it.
00:26<kamnet>Michael Blunk does, OzTrans did, some ISR tiles do. That's pretty much it.
00:26<Sylf>I want to see YETI crowding stations
00:27<TartarusMkII>how do I install this?" I only know how to use the ingame downloader
00:27<TartarusMkII>but ty very much!
00:27<Sylf>Windows? Linux? Mac?
00:29<kamnet>In your OpenTTD folder create a folder named "newgrf" and drop it there.
00:30<kamnet>You'll need to unpack .zip files, but if it's in a .tar file you can leave it packed. You can have subfolders inside the newgrf folder as well to organize your stuff.
00:30<Sylf>Assuming you're on Windows... You download the Windows version of the file from the site, open it with some zip program (like winzip, 7-zip etc), and extract the .grf file to c:\Users\<username>\My Documents\openttd\newgrf
00:30<Sylf>On Linux, the directory is ~/.openttd/newgrf
00:31<Sylf>I'm clueless about Mac
00:32<JezK>probably same as linux
00:33<Sylf>It's not exactly the same from what I remember
00:33<Sylf>It may be BSD variant, but it's different enough.
00:40<TartarusMkII>hi sorry, had to step out, thanks for the help!
00:40<TartarusMkII>so is this just him making unescessarily shaped stations for looks?
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00:51<TartarusMkII>my newgrf fodler is empty- where did all fhte GRFs I downloaded in-game go? =O
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00:55<TartarusMkII>nvm, either way, they showed up. woot.
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01:01<kamnet>The files you downloaded from in-game are kept in the content_download directory. Don't mess with them tehre.
01:01*TartarusMkII messed with them,!!!!
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01:07<Supercheese> :O
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02:00<TartarusMkII>What kind of city expansion setting do you guys recomend?
02:01<TartarusMkII>I dont have it set to the default, I ahve it set to 'improved' I think..
02:03<kamnet>I let it randomly select
02:05<TartarusMkII>I feel like it's hard to extend the roads of towns then, because you don't know whic hway they want it to go.
02:06<TartarusMkII>And if it's set to random, does it choose randomly for the whole map, or town by town?
02:07<kamnet>town by town.
02:07<TartarusMkII>ah thats cool
02:08<kamnet>If the game founds a town as a 3x3 grid, it will always expand on that. With original or improved, you never know what you'll get for sure, but landscape will dictate much of how it grows
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02:12<TartarusMkII>if I build roads for it, will they brach off of my roads, or get all confused?
02:12<TartarusMkII>if it is improved or original, I mean
02:13<Supercheese>I believe towns will use any road(s) you give them
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02:18<TartarusMkII>Thanks again
02:22<TartarusMkII>Hm, any nice GRFs that give towns more buildings to choose from to build?
02:23<Supercheese>Total Town Replacement Set (TTRS)
02:23<Supercheese>Swedish Houses
02:23<Supercheese>ECS Houses
02:23<Supercheese>those spring to mind
02:23<Supercheese>Japan Set should also have houses
02:23<TartarusMkII>Can they be used together?
02:24<Supercheese>I use the first 3 together
02:24<kamnet>Yep. I pretty much use just about all of them.
02:24<Supercheese>they work fine but I cannot speak for Japan set
02:24<kamnet>Most sets offer lots of buildings for Temperate. I've found much fewer for the other climates, and even fewer for eras outside of 1950 to 2050
02:24<TartarusMkII>awesome, thanks!
02:30<TartarusMkII>so now my roads look like this.. And I am wondering, do they ev er change? Or look more advanced than just slabs of stone?
02:35<Supercheese>I think those are TTRS roads? If so they should change at some point
02:35<Supercheese>start a new game with the same grf configuration in the year 1990 or later to check
02:35<Supercheese>not that they change in 1990, just it's well past when they should
02:36<TartarusMkII>sure sure, good idea
02:36<TartarusMkII>out of curiosity, what is a good time to start the game when you don't have things specifically made for pre-industrial stuff?
02:37<TartarusMkII>And yes, they do change, awesome.
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02:50<TartarusMkII>Also, Is there any way to see like, an overlay of sorts to see where catchment areas are? So I can see where of a city might not be getting cvoered?
02:52<kamnet>TTRS roads flip over in 1950. I think you can configure them to flip earlier. It won't show in-game until you reload it, though.
02:54<kamnet>There really isn't a lot of good content for the game before 1950 and after 2050, the classic TTD eras. Artists and coders have only been coming around to those earlier and later eras in the last few years. FIRS has coded support for earlier stuff and the later stuff, but the graphics are still based in mid-20th century
02:55<kamnet>You might eventually convince Andy to update them, especially if you can draw close to his style :D
02:56<TartarusMkII>Okay, that's cool
02:56<TartarusMkII>And about the area?
03:04<TartarusMkII>And I notice wit hcargo dist on the passengers, they all rteally want to go to the 'central' terminal really bad, but idk why..
03:04<TartarusMkII>Seems so strange
03:07<TartarusMkII>I made 4 stations around a big city, and the trams have orders to simply stop at each 4 then repeat
03:07<TartarusMkII>but it seems like there is a huge build up at the last station. I wonder what I'm doing wrong
03:10<TartarusMkII>the stations all ahve hundreds of passengers EXCEPT the first stop...
03:10<TartarusMkII>which has like, none
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03:24<TartarusMkII>any thoughts?
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03:32<kamnet>No there's not automatic way to view serviced areas in vanilla OpenTTD. There is a patch, it's a bit CPU hungry but it works okay. best you can do in vanilla is to turn on display of station cachement in the station placement screen to see where it will cover.
03:34<V453000>which is quite a shame.
03:34<kamnet>If you have CargoDist enabled, then you're not doing anything wrong. cD sends cargo to available destinations through your existing networks.
03:35<kamnet>I'm going to guess that the area covering "central" has a high number of buildings which can accept passengers, and thus it's the popular destination
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03:45<TartarusMkII>okay thanks c:
03:50<TartarusMkII>I see one dock that uses fish to make food, but I can't figure out where to get fish from?
03:51<kamnet>from a fishing ground
03:51<kamnet>out in the water
03:51<kamnet>build long trains to harvest them.
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03:52<TartarusMkII>long trains?
03:52<TartarusMkII>also, this is happening again, the passenger imbalance is now in differences of 500 or so passengers 0_o I am thinkign that trying to make a closed circle with the way my orders are set just wont work
03:55<kamnet>They might improve some if you make direct routes, but you may likely find that even if you do that, passengers still prefer to ride the loop and go via the other stations
03:55<argoneus>good monday morning train friends
03:56<kamnet>And, yes, long trains. Because nobody wants to see a bunch of short trains trying to swim in the ocean. It's tedious and unimpressive.
03:57<TartarusMkII>Also, I see sandbanks and title-less platforms in the ocean, but clickign them says they accept passengers, but produce nothing?..
03:57<V453000>I dont see how is train length relevant with fishing :D
03:57<kamnet>Unless you're playing Iron Horse. Then you cackle with glee every time something ddrowns.
03:57<argoneus>guess what time it is
03:57<kamnet>I don't have to guess. The channel tells me what time it is on every post :D
03:58<argoneus>it's ideaguying time
03:58<kamnet>[03:57] argoneus guess what time it is
03:58<argoneus>openttd needs rollercoasters
03:58<kamnet>You building them?
03:59<V453000>Warning: Channel has been polluted with stupid ideas without anybody actually working on them. Do you wish to quit? [Y/N]
03:59<kamnet>Nobody's ever finished making the Funfair objects. Wish he hadn't disappeared. :(
04:00<kamnet>SAC made some a decade ago and still hasn't published them.
04:00<TartarusMkII>Hey guys, lets expand toylan -ban-
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04:14<supermop_>re-learning grasshopper
04:24<@planetmaker>TartarusMkII, toyland is seriously under-rated. And the most complex default game concerning industries
04:24<TartarusMkII>How so?
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04:25<@planetmaker>look at the chains. And look at the individual industries on how they work / look. It's the most complicated in terms of that
04:25<Pikka>it's still not very complicated though :P
04:26<@planetmaker>sprites are re-coloured, there's different animations... and yes :) I just saw we can now have even more industries ;)
04:30<supermop_>even more industries...?
04:30<supermop_>i mean i know why
04:37<@planetmaker>I mean that, supermop_ :
04:41<supermop_>that is a lot of industries
04:41<supermop_>still the same amount of cargo though?
04:48<@planetmaker>increasing those is a lot more difficult :)
04:49<V453000>what do we need moar industries for? firs economies?:P
04:56<@planetmaker>no clue. I was offline 14 days straight
04:57<@planetmaker>I thought *you* would tell me :P
04:57<@planetmaker>and feared it might relate to yeti ;)
04:57<Pikka>it's so people can use every industry set at once
04:58<V453000>oh that XD
04:59<@planetmaker>yeah... or possibly to avoid the problem with the port industries and the industry chain graph
04:59<@planetmaker>(deliberately ignoring the irony ;)
04:59<V453000>pm yeti uses 16 industries and I say it all the time that sensible system > 25478 industries
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05:06<supermop_>maxwell seems very counter-intuitive to me so far
05:15<supermop_>im just going to pay someone else to do this
06:15<kamnet>planetmaker, if I remember correctly, a week or so ago Andythenorth mentioned he was over the industry limit while trying to reorganize industry IDs, frosch123 looked into it and determined it was a limit that could be raised and couldn't find a reason why it was set where it was.
06:23<V453000>interesting solution supermop_ :P
06:27<supermop_>its such i pain V453000
06:27<supermop_>i figure there is a reason these guys can charge $1000 per image
06:27<V453000>but the advertisement page said it is easy and intuitive! :D
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06:28<supermop_>and to be honest even not counting the software - if i have to start from scratch it may well take $1000 of my time - but i dont think i can bill for hours i spend banging my head against the wall
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06:29<supermop_>if i tell my client lets just send it to the pros, it will be $2000, versus me saying hey i made some ok renders, that will be $4000 please
06:33<kamnet>Aha, found the conversation planetmaker:
06:34<V453000>supermop_: I think that is the time when you just need to be a good merchant and guess how much can you ask from your client
06:35<supermop_>i mean i'd love to make the $4000
06:36<V453000>if they will pay it ... :)
06:36<supermop_>but I'm already in a mild panic about trying to pick a rendered, learn how to use it, rig up the model, and get however many good shots in the next week
06:37<V453000>yeah that is sub-optimal :d
06:37<supermop_>thats the thing, client is a start up in fairly lean phase right now
06:37<supermop_>needs good renders to show to his customers/investors to get the money
06:37<supermop_>but needs the money to get the renders
06:37<V453000>I understand, we do the same :)
06:37<V453000>well :)
06:38<supermop_>so of his cash that he has now, if i take too much for the render then there is less to pay for design work etc
06:39<V453000>is there trial v-ray for rhino?
06:39<supermop_>i think i'm too mentally stuck to make a decision
06:39<supermop_>30 days
06:39<supermop_>so i could try that
06:40<supermop_>im using the maxwell trial now but it leaves a watermark
06:40<V453000>I can help you with that somewhat, if the interface is at least somewhat similar to my stuff
06:40<supermop_>i feel like normally i could pick one of these up and learn it, but sort of in decision paralysis
06:41<V453000>I understand that
06:41<supermop_>esp as there are bits and pieces of modelling that still need to be done, so i keep bouncing back and forth between modelling, previewing stuff in flamingo, and trying to figure out new sofftware
06:42<V453000>can rhino make an export to max?
06:42<V453000>if yes I can do the render for you
06:42<V453000>if not, hm :)
06:42<supermop_>i can export as 3ds no problem
06:42<supermop_>all of my furniture is 3ds models imported as blocks
06:43<supermop_>i tried brushing up on grasshopper today to replace my ceiling system with a parametricaly generated thing mostly to procrastinate
06:47<supermop_>i wonder if i can use grasshopper to make trams
07:06<argoneus>V453000 in a nutshell: :) :D :) :) :D :) :)
07:07<V453000>I absolutely agree
07:07<argoneus>will you invite me to your marriage?
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11:00<V453000>since I dont even know you, probably not? :)
11:00<V453000>or do I :)
11:06<@Alberth>nobody knows mr X
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12:11<frosch123>planetmaker: it's for firs
12:11<frosch123>firs has > 70 industries now, the economies select some subsets of them
12:12<frosch123>previously andy would have to assign dynamic ids to the same industry in different economies
12:12<frosch123>which would have resulted in a terrible monologue in this channel
12:12<frosch123>so i better extended the id range :p
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>that would have been easier, if there were GRM for industries ;)
12:14<frosch123>grm is for global ids, industry ids were never global
12:15<frosch123>grm would be for cargos, if sets wouldn't use them all anyway :p
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, sets tried to leave one free for regearing and stuff...
12:15<frosch123>actually, even cargos would use local ids with translation tables
12:15<frosch123>so sprites are the only valid usecase for grm
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>huh? i don't think cargo translation tables apply to sets defining cargos, only sets using cargos
12:17<@planetmaker>hehe, frosch123 :) I nearly thought so. And yes, I like it
12:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, currently, but if cargo amount would be extended, it would be done like railtypes
12:18<@planetmaker>it might also and especially obsolete the need for variable acceptance / output of cargoes for industries like the ports. Just use different ports and the cargo chain view is unbroken again
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: railtypes work in a way that assigns them a random id, as long as one is free?
12:20<@planetmaker>hi T :)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that could still use DRM to check whether there are free slots left
12:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, like industries, houses, objects, ...
12:21<frosch123>yes, it could
12:21<frosch123>but i doubt anyone would care
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12:25*planetmaker would not. Most likely :P
12:34<@Alberth>hi hi, good point about industry chain window
12:35<frosch123>same for smallamp
12:36<@Alberth>smallmap legend explodes doesn't it? it lists industries
12:36<@Alberth>I often wish I have a cargo to select instead
12:36<frosch123>yes, but you can distingish industries producing different things
12:36<@Alberth>iirc I tried that once, but it didn't work nicely
12:37<frosch123>i wondered about dynamically changing colours
12:37<frosch123>like producing/accepting when linked to cargo chain wnidow
12:39<@Alberth>don't think that would work, I often want a specific industry, rather than all
12:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27280 trunk/src/base_consist.cpp (2015-05-11 18:40:06 +0200 )
12:40<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24998): Cloning/autoreplace/autorenew did not copy custom service intervals. (Johnnei)
12:40<@Alberth>haha, shows how often custom intervals are used :p
12:40<@planetmaker>I'm a bit sad that adf88 doesn't join this channel
12:40<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah. Not so often it seems :)
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12:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27281 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:53:05 +0200 )
12:53<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Do not shadow local variables with other local variables in sub-scopes.
12:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27282 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2015-05-11 18:58:09 +0200 )
12:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6254]: Enforce the company's default service intervals when purchasing another company. (Johnnei)
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13:18<kamnet>Oh, that's a good fix!
13:20<@planetmaker>those are hidden ones which with zero chance are detected in patch packs :)
13:22*Rubidium has a feeling he knows a patch pack that will contain that patch ;)
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13:25<kamnet>Why wouldn't a patch pack enforce service intervals?
13:28<@planetmaker>it would. But finding it in a patch pack is very unlikely given the difference in user base. Nothing more I wanted to hint at
13:28<frosch123>planetmaker: in that case we need a new category for samu bugs :)
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13:34<Taede>planetmaker, i added the files to fs#6298
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13:42<strachan>hey everyone :D
13:44<strachan>I see there's a 'Dont ask to ask' policy here so ill just ask: how do you add/remove GRF's in the scenario editor...can't figure it out :s
13:45<Wolf01>there is also a "do not remove grfs from a game" policy
13:45<Taede>or add for that matter
13:45<V453000>removing is even worse :D
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27283 /trunk/src/lang (belarusian.txt brazilian_portuguese.txt) (2015-05-11 19:45:26 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 20 changes by Tucalipe
13:46<Wolf01>but if that's a scenario (not a savegame) with a decorative grf which don't alter the functionality, you might run ottd as a developer, but that's not my business
13:46<frosch123>it's a hidden setting
13:47<frosch123>scenario_developer_tools or something
13:47<strachan>so i gotta make a whole world map and build it all with the GRF's i want...and to change trainsets etc I got to build it again from the heightmap upwards?
13:47<strachan>(and thanks for your help, much appreciated ;) )
13:48<frosch123>you can use the hidden setting
13:48<frosch123>but there is no proper solution
13:49<strachan>thats cool, thanks!
13:50<strachan>bonus question: are there any grf packs that contain multiple sets of grfs so you can get around the limit?
13:51<strachan>I like scenery
13:52<frosch123>no, some people even split their grfs for marketing purposes
13:52<@planetmaker>there is no patch pack which gets around that limit without destroying multiplayer
13:52<@planetmaker>the limit is a networking limit. And 63... is A LOT of newgrfs
13:53<strachan>it is, and i only play LAN games but with the scenery, multiple vehicle sets and town replacement etc I find its just not enough...
13:53<@planetmaker>LAN is also network.
13:54<V453000>marketing purposes XD
13:55<+glx>planetmaker: the question was not patch pack but grf pack :)
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13:57<@planetmaker>:) grf pack... there's only one. Ancient. Not useful anymore. The others of significance are all on bananas :)
13:58<strachan>I have probably all of bananas haha
13:58<frosch123>also the ancient one was no "grf pack" as in using one grf slot
13:59<strachan>do you guys prefer ECS or FIRS?
13:59<+glx>ECS is silly with the landscape requirements
14:00<strachan>honestly never used ECS other than once and wasn't fond of it...just curious if im missing something
14:00<strachan>what landscape requirements?
14:05<strachan>nevermind, i think i know what you mean. Oh well, thanks guys. Ill no doubt be back at some point ;)
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14:22<sim642>I'll just ask this instead of wasting ages trying to dig into the source: If I want to code an OpenTTD server chat and IRC bridge, which pieces of the networking protocol do I actually need if I don't care about the rest?
14:22<frosch123> <- why not use an existing one?
14:23<frosch123>it does not need to modify the ottd source btw
14:23<frosch123>ottd has an interface for such things
14:24<kamnet>Didn't somebody already do that, though?
14:24<frosch123>i think there are at least 5 such things
14:24<frosch123>python, java, c#, and other weird languages
14:24<sim642>If you're referring me to existing projects I assume it isn't the easiest thing to do without prior knowledge?
14:25<sim642>I know I don't need to modify ottd source, I just looked at it to understand how to poll server status with UDP but that doesn't give me chat I think
14:25<frosch123>if you want to start from scratch, your starting point is:
14:26<frosch123>but as said, there are already 5+ solutions
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14:45<kamnet>sim642: Here's what I was thinking of
14:47<frosch123>autopilot is deprecated, soap is the successor
14:49<@Rubidium>sim642: providing chat with a bot that is being connected as a normal client to openttd is quite cumbersome, since it requires you to implement certain parts of being a game client. Furthermore the game client protocol is unstable, so the admin protocol is a more reliable way to get a chat bridge going
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14:59<kamnet>somebody on the coop wiki should indicate ont he page that autopilot is depreciated :D
15:03<frosch123>what have you done? :üp
15:04<V453000>spam filter seems to be too smart and wont let me do the thing
15:04<V453000>we had some problems with spam earlier :D
15:04<frosch123>does it detect "V453000" as a randomly generated spam user?
15:05<V453000>probably not :
15:06<V453000>btw frosch123 have you tried any fiddling with the CC algorithm for 32bpp?
15:06<frosch123>no :)
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15:35<kamnet>2CC 32bpp Yeti Dudes?
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15:37<frosch123>how can i transpose a selection of cells in libreoffice calc? :)
15:38<frosch123>ah, copy+paste transposed
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15:41<@Alberth>secret keys :p
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15:50<frosch123>@base 10 16 198
15:50<@DorpsGek>frosch123: C6
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16:06<frosch123>yellow is weird
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16:14<frosch123>V453000: <- yellow and orange are weird
16:15<@peter1138>dark green worries me :p
16:15<frosch123>yeah, misclicked somewhen apparently
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16:17<@Rubidium>frosch123: orange actually looks like red and blue swap at #5, assuming the angle of #3-#4 is continued and an & 255 is performed
16:18<@peter1138>And yeah, that's why using 1 single remap colour in 32bpp graphics looks like shit.
16:18<frosch123>peter1138: i think about ignoring the map colour, and instead map the "brightness" to the linear interpolation of those curves
16:19<frosch123>i.e. all company colours map to those curves
16:19<@peter1138>Maths because artists are lazy :D
16:20<frosch123>kind of like providing separate palettes for company colours and using the brightness as palette index
16:20<frosch123>Rubidium: i guess it just goes towards white when red is maxed
16:21<@peter1138>Could be awkward mapping it so that 8bpp stuff works normally. May depend when it's mapped.
16:21<frosch123>it's essentially a new blitter mode
16:22<frosch123>we already have special ones for crashed/transparent
16:22<frosch123>there can as well be special ones for company colours
16:22<frosch123>which are activated when the cc remaps are used
16:22<frosch123>ofc only when not using sse :p
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16:26<@peter1138>Annoyingly remapping on load would be most efficient...
16:27<@peter1138>If only you knew it was always remapped with CC, at that point.
16:27<frosch123>256 times the sprite cache usage :p
16:28<@planetmaker>:) Otoh, might even work ;)
16:28<@peter1138>True, I was only thinking of remapping the CC to the 8 CC bits, but yeah.
16:28<@peter1138>planetmaker, 256 along with 4x zoom... :D
16:29<@peter1138>OpenTTD requirements, 64GB RAM...
16:29<frosch123>i make the drawing rather multithreaded :p
16:29<@peter1138>Or, get the artists to draw it properly ;)
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose that's what over half a century of brainwashing do to a country:
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16:58<__ln__>at least they hopefully know which country was fighting against which.
16:59<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Tue May 12 00:00:43 2015