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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-20

---Logopened Wed May 20 00:00:54 2015
00:06<Supercheese>mas o menos
00:39<supermop>anyone have an oculus rift?
00:49<Supercheese>nope
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01:32<andythenorth>o/
01:32<andythenorth>also pikka
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01:33<supermop>not sure how wide this thing is from pictures
01:34<supermop>dont think i'll model it
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01:59<andythenorth>hmm
01:59<andythenorth>also bah]
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02:00<supermop>just modeled a building across the street from my project for no real reason
02:01<supermop>17x36m though so a bit awkward to shoehorn into ottd tiles
02:03<supermop>1.5x3 tiles, maybe i can scale it by 2/3 without the windows looking bizarre
02:22<andythenorth>nml spritesets have identifiers
02:23<andythenorth>which nml will expand to hex IDs at compile time
02:23*andythenorth assumes
02:25<andythenorth>meh
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02:30<Eddi|zuHause>random ramblings are random?
02:40<V453000>.
02:43<supermop>yep
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03:16<Pikka>hello hello
03:17<supermop>yo
03:19<Pikka>what's the haps?
03:22<supermop>modelling buildings on this block:
03:22<supermop>https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.813143,144.966925,3a,75y,14.92h,95.65t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdASJzqUcFoPDVPC89bd9iQ!2e0!6m1!1e1
03:22<supermop>first the deco tower, now the terrace shophouses next to it
03:23<supermop>when can we pay pineapples for pineapples?
03:23<supermop>or pledge
03:29<Pikka>late next month probably :)
03:29<supermop>nice!
03:30<Pikka>nice block, trams and everything
03:30<supermop>i was doing work work for something in one of the buildings, and thought maybe i should model a few across the street for context
03:31<supermop>and got sidetracked
03:31<supermop>a melb house set really need those awnings over the sidewalk in some cases
03:35<supermop>ok going to run to coles back in a few
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03:53<V453000>the latest nightly causes desyncs even with paused game :0
03:53<V453000>k maybe not but desyncs :0
04:07<Pikka>oops
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04:11<Pikka>herr thenorth I presume
04:21<andythenorth>it is
04:21<andythenorth>what is 0 || 0 || 1
04:22<andythenorth>1?
04:22<andythenorth>or 0?
04:22<^Spike^>1
04:22<^Spike^>atleast if it is normal programming
04:25<andythenorth>ta
04:28<supermop>wet socks
04:28<supermop>and tram had to reboot
04:31<Pikka>so
04:31<Pikka>is adjusting cargo decay rate a bad feature?
04:32<V453000>I do it, I justify it as "slugs are eating cargo"
04:32<V453000>in reward they get increased power :D
04:33<Pikka>on the one hand, hidden stats are bad.
04:33<V453000>aint hidden, red text :>
04:34<Pikka>on the other, it seems necessary to widen the performance gap between buses and coaches...
04:34<V453000>makes sense actually yes
04:34<Pikka>buses and trams
04:34<V453000>but I would just increase load speed
04:35<V453000>long distance busses with long load speed makes them stupidly unfit for city centers
04:35<Pikka>yeah
04:35<V453000>then you can make them very fast and with ok capacity
04:35<Pikka>but the problem is not that coaches are too good at short distance
04:35<Pikka>the problem is the buses are too good at long distance :P
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04:35<V453000>if they have stupidly bad loading speed, a normal bus with good loading speed and half the speed will win
04:37<Pikka>I'm thinking buses (and trams) should have faster decay, while coaches keep the same decay as other vehicle types
04:37<Pikka>a no-toilets malus
04:38<V453000>mh
04:40<andythenorth>I do it for some stuff
04:40<andythenorth>refrigerated
04:43<supermop>i think it makes sense
04:43<supermop>otherwise there is really no point in a coach/intercity train/etc
04:44<V453000>many people wont care about profits
04:45<V453000>and the difference will be so small in the global scope of a bigger network that it isnt very strong argument
04:45<Pikka>true
04:45<Pikka>there are other distinctions
04:45<Pikka>but I'm trying to make a distinction in profits also :)
04:45<andythenorth>hide_sprite: (construction_state != 3) || LOAD_TEMP(13) || LOAD_TEMP(128);
04:46<andythenorth>doesn’t :(
04:46<andythenorth>even when LOAD_TEMP(128) = 1
04:46<andythenorth>what do I do wrong :(
04:51<Pikka>NML is all welsh to me
04:52<andythenorth>yeah
04:54<andythenorth>in time-honoured fashion
04:54*andythenorth gives up
04:55<andythenorth>I store 1, but it’s read as 0
04:55<andythenorth>meh
04:56<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> I'm thinking buses (and trams) should have faster decay, while coaches keep the same decay as other vehicle types <-- that was basically the intention behind the feature
04:56<Pikka>yes
04:56<Pikka>doesn't necessarily make it a good feature, though ;)
04:57<Pikka>it works for me, I'll stick with it for now. :) We'll see what testers think, one day.
04:59<supermop>i'd be happy making no money on most bus legs if it meant getting people around smoothly to other legs
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>and you know you can un-hide a feature with CB23? :p
05:00*andythenorth is so crap at bool
05:00<andythenorth>(1) is false
05:00<andythenorth>but (1 == 1) is true
05:00<andythenorth>why?
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's not actually 1?
05:01<andythenorth>(LOAD_TEMP(128)) is false
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe the specs are weird
05:01<andythenorth>but (LOAD_TEMP(128) == 1) is true
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe nml does invalid operations
05:01<andythenorth>I suspect that nml evaluates 1 == True in some places, but not others
05:02<andythenorth>or more likely, I’m doing it wrong
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05:12<__ln__>anyone been to Gibraltar and/or Ceuta?
05:13<andythenorth>does using LOAD_TEMP() destroy the register contents?
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05:34<andythenorth>reading a register twice produces different values
05:35<andythenorth>maybe
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06:11<andythenorth>yeah
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06:47<andythenorth>ha
06:47*andythenorth had multiple switches
06:47<andythenorth>scribbling over the same register
06:47<andythenorth>took a while to find that :P
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07:03<andythenorth>hmm
07:03<andythenorth>works
07:03<andythenorth>but compiles slower :)
07:03<andythenorth>that was 6 hours well spent :)
07:07<V453000>XD
07:07<andythenorth>winning
07:07<andythenorth>but eh, I learnt some things about registers
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07:28<andythenorth>yay
07:28<andythenorth>now actually faster
07:28<andythenorth>probably about 5s, averaged
07:28<V453000>what are the new features? :P
07:28<andythenorth>faster
07:29<andythenorth>hide_sprite calculations are down once instead of (count of building sprites) * (num date variations) * ([snow, non-snow])
07:29<andythenorth>down / done /s
07:29<andythenorth>so wastes less OpenTTD time also
07:30<andythenorth>@calc 16 * 4 * 4 * 2
07:30<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 512
07:30<andythenorth>yeah
07:30<andythenorth>once is better than 512 times
07:30<andythenorth>per industry
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you should probably give the registers names, instead of using the numbers. helps in keeping things unique
07:31<andythenorth>yes
07:31<andythenorth>I am going to do that
07:31<V453000>nowai
07:31<andythenorth>afaict, nml doesn’t provide any shorthand for that
07:31<andythenorth>I can do it in the compile though
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, but that's what you have macros for
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07:33*andythenorth considers *not* removing all the CPP
07:33<andythenorth>it’s remarkably convenient for trivial identifiers
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07:38<andythenorth>eh 50s compile with primed caches
07:38<andythenorth>pretty poor, but better than 71s
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09:35<andythenorth>how can I make it faster?
09:46<andythenorth>spritelayouts are slow
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13:42<frosch123>hoi
13:55<@Alberth>doesn't seem terribly busy here, today
14:03<Taede>ello
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14:08<andythenorth>quak
14:10<@Alberth>moin
14:10<frosch123>someone knows a 32bpp vehicle grf that uses the complete 0-255 brightness range in company colours?
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14:12<andythenorth>so I managed to make FIRS compile about 6 seconds faster
14:12<andythenorth>took me about 8 hours
14:13<andythenorth>good result eh?
14:14<frosch123>how many irc lines?
14:14<andythenorth>couple of hundred?
14:14<frosch123>good result?
14:14<andythenorth>think so
14:15<andythenorth>a full compile with primed caches is now about 52s
14:15<andythenorth>firs.nml is 10.9MB instead of 14.1MB
14:16<andythenorth>the resulting grf is 3.2MB instead of 5.2MB
14:16<andythenorth>previous compile was about 71s
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>just remember that for every hour you spend writing code you spend 9 hours maintaining that code
14:17<frosch123>so you deleted lots of stuff :p
14:17<andythenorth>I deleted lots of generated code
14:17<andythenorth>look up the snow tile once per spritelayout, not ~512 times
14:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27289 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp (2015-05-20 20:17:50 +0200 )
14:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix: some uninitialised instance variables
14:18<andythenorth>also no longer runs out of registers trivially in the graphics chain
14:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27290 /trunk/src/os (3 files in 3 dirs) (2015-05-20 20:18:26 +0200 )
14:18<@DorpsGek>-Fix: sanitize the command line arguments before doing anything complex with them
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14:24*andythenorth has run out of obvious ways to make FIRS faster now
14:24<andythenorth>been wondering about one text cb switch chain instead of 66
14:24<andythenorth>dunno
14:32<andythenorth>commenting the text switches out makes no difference to compile time
14:32<andythenorth>interesting
14:39<argoneus>good morning train friends
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14:41<V453000>I can make you such vehicle frosch123
14:42<V453000>try nuts, idk how brightness goes there
14:42<V453000>slugs/maglev has a lot of CC
14:42<frosch123>ok :)
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14:44<argoneus>V453000: can you into 3d graphics in general?
14:45<V453000>wat?
14:45<argoneus>like bump maps, specular/diffusion lighting etc
14:45<V453000>is that a sentence? :D
14:45<V453000>yes I know some stuff about it
14:45<frosch123>his sentence a verb :)
14:46<V453000>I yes
14:46<argoneus>:<
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14:46<argoneus>stop bullying me
14:47<frosch123>he, it's one of my favorite responses to broken sentences
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14:47<V453000>:)
14:47<frosch123>not sure where i learned it
14:47<frosch123>maybe from dalestan
14:48<argoneus>V453000: do you know what anisotropic filtering is?
14:48<V453000>yes
14:48<argoneus>wow
14:48<argoneus>teach me
14:48<argoneus>senpai
14:48<argoneus>im trying to into 3d
14:48<argoneus>but there's a lot of stuff to learn
14:49<V453000>well, anisotropy is when the "thing" like reflection is like transformed to sides
14:49<V453000>in short it is used to simulate brushed materials, typically brushed metal
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14:50<Rubidium>isn't that just a fancy word for polaroid filters?
14:50<V453000>regardless what software you are using, most of the terms will be same/similar with this http://www.blenderguru.com/articles/cycles-shader-encyclopedia/
14:51<V453000>idk Rubi :)
14:52<Rubidium>interesting how abbreviations get abbreviated even more, so the text could be interpreted in two completely different ways
14:53<andythenorth>looks to me like anistropic deals with anti-alias blur of a texture that is mapped onto a receeding plane
14:53<argoneus>the way I understood it
14:53<andythenorth>anisotropic *
14:53<argoneus>textures are usually mapped to a rectangular area
14:53<argoneus>except like in a game you see the textures under an angle
14:53<argoneus>and anisotropic filtering is supposed to map the texture properly to the angled texture
14:53<argoneus>else it's blurred
14:53<argoneus>to the angled model*
14:53*Rubidium thought 3D works only in triangles
14:53<V453000>I guess you could explain it that way
14:54<argoneus>there's tris and quads
14:54<argoneus>:<
14:54<andythenorth>looks like edge enhancement to me
14:54<V453000>it kind of does Rubi but yeah :)
14:54<V453000>quads always have a triangulating diagonal which splits it to triangles
14:54<V453000>or any other polygons larger than quads or whatnot
14:54<andythenorth>instead of averaging neighbouring pixels (resulting in mush), it seems to preserve contrast and hue whilst reducing the pixel dimensions
14:55*andythenorth only read wikipedia page about it, probably lies
14:55<argoneus>isn't anisotropic filtering a different layer from nearest neighbour / bilinear / trilinear filtering?
14:55<Rubidium>you shouldn't have said that... now we can't use your talk about it here as source for the wikipedia page
14:56<V453000>probably not argoneus
14:56<V453000>idk what exactly bilinear and whatnot filtering does but I think that is more related to sampling of the render
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14:56<V453000>(how pixels of the result are approximated etc)
14:56<Wolf01>hi hi
14:56<argoneus>oh
14:56<argoneus>anisotropic filtering is a better trilinear filtering
14:56<andythenorth>nearest neighbour = smush
14:56<argoneus>that works for angled things
14:56<argoneus>apparently
14:57<V453000>while anisotropy is a property of the material where the shader behaves that way
14:57<andythenorth>photoshop has similar filters when resizing
14:57<V453000>I think at least, that is how I know it
14:57<andythenorth>it’s easy to see the results there
14:57<V453000>okay
14:57<V453000>:D
15:10<andythenorth>so FIRS coal mine
15:10<andythenorth>needs re-implemented for reasons
15:10<andythenorth>currently uses TTD default tiles and layouts, swaps the sprites
15:10<andythenorth>should I keep the layouts, or do new ones?
15:10<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#coal_mine
15:10*andythenorth outsources decisions :P
15:17<@Alberth>assuming it's not going to be very much different, I'd just keep what you have
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15:18<andythenorth>winner
15:18<@Alberth>hmm, coal... power plant... I read mb's proposal on ECS, he proposes sulphur as output cargo (just above 2.2 http://www.ttdpatch.de/ecs.html )
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15:18*andythenorth would consider building materials
15:19<@Alberth>as input, so it can be burned :p
15:19<andythenorth>hmm, Michael gets so much right imho
15:19<andythenorth>shame he won’t play nicely :P
15:21<andythenorth>FIRS is pretty much in-line with original ECS idea
15:21<@Alberth>it quite is
15:22<@Alberth>but given the source (some standard classification of industries), it's not that surprising
15:23<@Alberth>you've been thinking about such things too for a long time
15:24<andythenorth>he :)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> there's tris and quads <-- shouldn't it be "tetras"?
15:31<argoneus>I think they're called quads specifically Eddi|zuHause
15:31<argoneus>but I could be wrong
15:31*argoneus paging V453000
15:38<frosch123>ten years ago there were triangle fans an strips
15:39<frosch123>all with the purpose to draw as many triangles as possibly with as little individual vertices being transfered to the gpu
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>i would assume there's little optimisation potential there, given that you're working with mostly planar graphs
15:54<frosch123>you mean "little left"?
15:54<frosch123>because triangle fans/stips safe 2/3 of data compared to single triangles
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i'm just not completely understanding the context
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>of course, submitting individual triangles basically triples the data...
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16:01<+michi_cc>The big bottleneck of today's GPUs (and driver architectures) is submitting commands to the GPU. Whether you need one or three vertices per triangle doesn't matter much when one options means you can draw them in a single batch.
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16:17<Wolf01>mmmh, night all
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16:40*andythenorth needs a random start / stop animation
16:40<andythenorth>or I cheat, and just fill out a lot of spacer frames :P
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's the difficulty?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>default industries randomly start and stop their animations, right?
16:45<andythenorth>yeah
16:46<andythenorth>I tried implementing it a few weeks ago, but failed
16:52<andythenorth>seems to need switching spritelayouts
16:52<andythenorth>rather than relying on the animation
16:53<andythenorth>can’t be sensible
16:55<andythenorth>must be a better way :P
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21:50<supermop>yo`
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