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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-22

---Logopened Fri May 22 00:00:57 2015
00:04*kamnet is the biggest douchebag OpenTTD player ever
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01:22<andythenorth>how do I take the second byte in nml?
01:23<andythenorth>nml generally does not return results as a word
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01:37<Pikka>plenty of variables are more than byte-sized...
01:40<andythenorth>magic though
01:40<andythenorth>to make them the right size for eating
01:41<Pikka>if you only need the second byte, can you shift the first byte off?
01:42<andythenorth>yeah, there are shift expressions in nml
01:42<andythenorth>I am seeing if there is a better way
01:42<andythenorth>checking tile ID in the graphics chain is…waste of CPU :P
01:45<Pikka>I'm pretty sure the game is going to calculate the entire variable, even if you're only using part of it? :o
01:45<Pikka>"calculate", it's not really a calculation, just a look up :)
01:48<Pikka>FIRS going well, then?
01:50<andythenorth>not bad
01:50<andythenorth>how are pruple things?
01:51*andythenorth wonders when 60s compiles became acceptable instead of 10s, but eh
01:52<V453000>pi Pikka
01:52<V453000>meant hi but it came out alright I guess
01:53<Pikka>pruple things are going okay. Except I have a couple of thousand words to write by midnight
01:53<Pikka>and then another couple by monday.
01:53<Pikka>when I'd rather be texturing trams.
01:53<Pikka>pi V453000
01:54<andythenorth>I used to find writing the words easy
01:54<andythenorth>it was the cutting them down from 5000 to 2000 that took the effort :P
01:54<andythenorth>FIRS is about the same actually
01:55<Pikka>it's not hard, just a little tedious. :) a what-I-want-to-be-when-I-grow-up assignment designed for 17 year olds...
01:55<V453000>not bad
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02:07*andythenorth wonders what to be when he grows up
02:07<Pikka>I want to do pineapples.
02:08<Pikka>I want to be a pineapple doer.
02:08<andythenorth>all day long
02:11*andythenorth wants to be compiling FIRS faster when he grows up
02:12<Pikka>pineapple trains takes about 20 minutes to compile
02:12<andythenorth>you should make it faster
02:12<Pikka>mainly because it has to load 18,000 seperate pngs :)
02:12<andythenorth>moar power
02:13<Pikka>moar brown power
02:14<andythenorth>newgrfs, made of coal
02:16<andythenorth>an amazing system
02:16<andythenorth>we dig up dead animals and turn them into pixels
02:20<andythenorth>what happens if I don’t set some tile properties
02:21<V453000>dead animals protest
02:22<Pikka>it explodes and falls in a heap?
02:25<andythenorth>might do
02:25<andythenorth>or it just breaks quietly
02:25<andythenorth>or it is a non-issue :P
02:31<andythenorth>maybe I figured out animation finally :P
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02:44<QRSong>this is what?
02:44<V453000>I agree with you.
02:44<QRSong>where are you come from?
02:45<V453000>How is that important? :D
02:46<V453000>Exactly sir.
02:46<QRSong>I am chinese
02:46<kamnet>Supercheese: Of course I am. I only play on 8092x8092 maps.
02:47<V453000>the fuck do you even do on such a map :D
02:47<kamnet>I hate not sleeping
02:47<V453000>that doesnt sound like it goes well together with building 8k rail tiles across :D
02:48<kamnet>You create 20-wide tracks of maglevs. :D
02:49<QRSong>i don't know you say
02:49<kamnet>Oh, it's after midnight, I should be able to see my paystub.
02:50<kamnet>Oh how ironic, I resume my broadcast of Eurovision, it's Azerbaijan's entry, "I Won't Sleep Tonight"
02:50<QRSong>you are good man
02:51<kamnet>Why wot I do now?
02:51<QRSong>you should go to sleep
02:51<kamnet>I just got out of bed, tried for the last 2 hours
02:51<kamnet>I kinda sorta slept, kept waking up in between random bits of dreams
02:52<kamnet>I need to take a nasal decongestant I think
02:52<kamnet>alas, none to be had
02:53<QRSong>you come from dutch ?
02:54<QRSong>or England?
02:57<Supercheese>probably 2-3 AM then
02:57<kamnet>Hey, I got an okay paycheck. It'll be gone.
02:57<Supercheese>just midnight here on west coast
03:00<QRSong>now Fri May 22 15:00:16 CST 2015
03:00<kamnet>Yep, 3am.
03:00<QRSong>no 3pm
03:00<kamnet>in Kenturkey
03:00<QRSong>here China
03:02<QRSong>you must to sleep
03:03<kamnet>I have to be up in 2 hours anyhow
03:03<kamnet>I gotta go clean a house to help out a friend, then take her to the ear doctor, then go finish up my own work for the week.
03:04<QRSong>You are very busy
03:04<kamnet>Yeah, unfortunately
03:04<QRSong>i am so sorry
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03:05<QRSong>You are a programmer?
03:06<kamnet>I am not.
03:08<QRSong>i am first use xchat
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03:32<kamnet>Well the 2nd round of semifinals were definitely better than the first.
03:35<QRSong>What game ?
03:35<kamnet>Eurovision Song Contest
03:38<QRSong>I've never seen
03:39<kamnet>A very fine music competition.
03:39<Supercheese>Ha, an American telling a Chinese about the European song contest
03:39<Supercheese>whaddya know
03:40<kamnet>Americans should be more exposed to this. I am going to petition PbS to start broadcasting the finals live.
03:40<QRSong>What do you think of China
03:41<QRSong>I am a embedded programmer
03:41<kamnet>I studied Chinese culture and language for a semester in grade school. It was just about the only thing I excelled in that semester. It wasn't a good period for me.
03:42<Supercheese>also, most things sold here are made in China, it's crazy how much stuff is
03:42<kamnet>My girlfriend was manufactured in China!
03:43<Supercheese> :P
03:44<QRSong>make in Chian
03:44<QRSong>Are you kidding me
03:45<QRSong>Little thing is China, big Chinese no
03:45<kamnet>Yao Ming.
03:45<kamnet>He's BIG
03:46<QRSong>i say Large device
03:46<QRSong>I like American education
03:48<kamnet>Wu Long, also a big man
03:48<kamnet>Actually, one of my favorite trains that are here in kentucky was actually manufactured in China
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03:49<QRSong>Look China has already towards the world
03:50<QRSong>I'm incredibly
03:50<QRSong>Can you speak Chinese
03:51<V453000>!topic get 7
03:51<V453000>@topic get 7
03:51<@DorpsGek>V453000: for dev-talk
03:51<V453000>@topic get 6
03:51<@DorpsGek>V453000: Logs: @logs
03:51<Supercheese>@topic -3
03:51<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: topic [<channel>]
03:51<Supercheese>ah crap
03:51<Supercheese>can't go reverse
03:51<V453000>@topic get 5
03:51<@DorpsGek>V453000: English only
03:51<V453000>only took 3 tries to count to 5 correctly
03:51<V453000>well done me
03:52<QRSong>You all use xchat ?
03:56<kamnet>No I can't speak any Chinese anymore. Not that I could much.
03:57<kamnet>Well i can say hello in Mandarin. Maybe. Or I might have insulted somebody
03:58<kamnet>I'm sure my pronunciation i shorrible now
03:59<QRSong>Is 'ni hao'?
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04:01<V453000>does building while paused desync multiplayer?
04:04<QRSong>what ?
04:04<QRSong>I can't see
04:08<kamnet>This is R.J. Corman Railroad's "Old Smokey", a Chinese QJ 2-10-2
04:08<QRSong>I try
04:09<QRSong>Network can't get into our company
04:10<kamnet>It was built in 1986 and hauled coal and passengers in Liaoning province.
04:10<QRSong>Liaoning I konw
04:10<kamnet>It was retired in 2006 and purchased for restoration in the United States
04:13<QRSong>The United States is very nb
04:13<kamnet>very nb?
04:14<QRSong>nb is Science and technology developed
04:15<QRSong>Chinese people want to go to America in the 90 s
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08:33<andythenorth>Pikka: look, for just £39 you can be a Unity devloloper!
08:33*andythenorth considers it
08:33<andythenorth>oh, the coupon code is missing on that link
08:33<andythenorth>no special offer for you
08:34*Pikka is nearly finished writing this dratted assignment
08:34<Pikka>which is all about openttd graphics or something.
08:34<andythenorth>that’s not grown up
08:35<Pikka>it's about the kickstarter, mostly
08:35<andythenorth>“when I grow up I wonder like to be a crowdfunded hero” :D
08:36<Pikka>well it's a bit more detailed than that :P
08:36<Pikka>less what and more how
08:36<Pikka>v. grown-up
08:36<andythenorth>do you have a cashflow?
08:36<andythenorth>discounted for inflation?
08:36*andythenorth is super grown up
08:36<Pikka>my basic premise is "trainz can do it and trainz is rubbish, so..."
08:37*andythenorth has built and nearly crashed several businesses using mad skillz
08:37<Pikka>nearly is good enough
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08:38<andythenorth>my advice is
08:38<andythenorth>more money coming in than going out
08:38<andythenorth>is good
08:38<andythenorth>but not always achieveable :P
08:38<andythenorth>sometimes more money going out than coming in
08:38<andythenorth>but that is naturally self-limiting :
08:39<@peter1138>If I had that, I could afford a new laptop ;p
08:39<andythenorth>I afforded you one, it’s ok
08:39<@peter1138>It stopped charging.
08:39<andythenorth>rubbish macs
08:40*andythenorth wonders
08:40<andythenorth>one of: charger, mac, battery, PMU
08:40<andythenorth>don’t have any others to give away currently :P
08:43<@peter1138>It might charge eventually.
08:45<andythenorth>wiggle the magic magnet power thing
08:45<andythenorth>sometimes works
08:45<andythenorth>otherwise you are the owner of a donated lump of plastic :D
08:54<Pikka>assignment submitted
08:54<Pikka>bedtime, got another one to write by monday
08:54<Pikka>+ getting up at 5am on sunday for eurovision of course
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09:00<andythenorth>Eurovision GS
09:00<andythenorth>“Pikka: 3 points"
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12:42<Rubidium>andythenorth: pikka should get 12 points from every country... just so the next is hosted in Sydney
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12:59<Afdal>Hey guys
13:00<Afdal>Lately there has been a trend towards newGRF developers putting in 32bpp graphics in their newGRFs
13:00<Afdal>This is all fine and good however
13:00<andythenorth>it is the cool new thing
13:00<Afdal>32bpp runs like ass on some systems
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>you can disable 32bpp from openttd.cfg or the command line
13:00<Afdal>And needing to know some cryptic line to edit into the cfg file to restore 8bpp is not good
13:01<andythenorth>it will increase the number of valued players
13:01<Afdal>Are there plans to put this into the advanced settings menu somewhere?
13:01<andythenorth>by making this old game look more modern and exciting
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
13:01<Afdal>Please consider doing so
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>even if we did want that, it requires restarting openttd, and no existing setting has infrastructure to tell that
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, maybe it doesn't
13:02<Afdal>Another thing that bananas could really use
13:02<Rubidium>what OS is it actually?
13:02<andythenorth>why does the blitter matter?
13:02<Afdal>is an option to only download 8bpp portions of a newgrf
13:02<Afdal>Because these 32bpp things are gigantic sometimes
13:02<andythenorth>I thought the 8bpp blitter was a problem now
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>that was originally intended, but i guess nobody implemented that
13:02<Afdal>It's a ton for people to casually download when joining a server
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>the GRFv8 format was prepared so that GRFs with and without 32bpp sections have the same checksum
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>for that exact purpose
13:03<andythenorth>is the problem the blitter performance, or the filesize?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>of providing stripped versions of the GRFs
13:04<Rubidium>the tool to strip the 32bpp stuff from GRFs even exists
13:05<Afdal>two different problems, andythenorth
13:05<Rubidium>just the creation of the rest of the server infrastructure requires some thought, and I reckon that's at the moment the toughest part to get right
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13:11<andythenorth>quak etc
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>why is it that whenever i open a "help it doesn't work" thread i immediately have a thought on what the solution is after reading the first post, then there are 10-20 posts going in completely different directions, and the last post is "i got it, the solution is X" where X is exactly my initial thought.
13:29<andythenorth>because you are wired for that kind of thinking
13:30<__ln__>(or because you authored all those "help it doesn't work" threads yourself?)
13:30<andythenorth>also, there is a name in philosophy of science for that kind of ‘it is because it is’ reasoning, but I forgot it
13:31<andythenorth>“why have turtles survived as a species?"
13:31<andythenorth>“because they’re fitted for survival"
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14:36<Eddi|zuHause>... or because they have been trained by mr. splinter?
14:38<andythenorth>good answer
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14:41<andythenorth>how should FIRS fix clustering?
14:41*andythenorth is not good at algorithmic stuff
14:41<andythenorth>mostly good at painting pixels
14:41<andythenorth>also html
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not up to date on what the current issues are
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>one was that the distance between individual cluster elements should be bigger
14:43<andythenorth>clusters don’t scale appropriately to map size (bigger map, more clusters)
14:43<andythenorth>is the main issue
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that should be easy to achieve
14:43<andythenorth>I can fix the spacing within a cluster fairly trivially
14:43<andythenorth>I’m sure nfo FIRS had cluster regulation per-map size
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>there is a variable that you can read for the map size
14:44<andythenorth>written by either Eddi or Peter
14:44*andythenorth could go looking in hg
14:44<andythenorth>we scaled to some base size (maybe 1 cluster per 128x128 or so)
14:44<andythenorth>and then multiplied up
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>Änderung: 908:cb5b0d9ff092
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>Nutzer: planetmaker <>
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>Datum: Sun Jun 13 20:23:46 2010 +0200
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>Zusammenfassung: Add: Add parameters for map size and map-size dependent cluster count
14:46<andythenorth>‘mult’ and ‘div’ are just arbitrary to me, I don’t follow what they do
14:47<andythenorth>they’re usually pairs like 5 and 4, or 3 and 2, or 1 and 2
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>5/4 is 20% more
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>or 25%
14:50<andythenorth>maybe the map scaling is still there
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14:50<andythenorth>what is the ‘industry_clusters’ param
14:50*andythenorth looks
14:51<Eddi|zuHause> <-- doesn't look like anything i ever would write
14:52<andythenorth>industry_clusters = (relative_map_size / 2) + 1;
14:52<andythenorth>relative_map_size = map_size / (256 * 256);
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't look right
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>map_size is usually given in exponents
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>offset by 5
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>or 6
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>or so
14:53<andythenorth>so that code is present, but I assumed it wasn’t, because I see not-good results at map gen time
14:53<andythenorth>also scaling by number of industries in economy should be considered :|
14:54<andythenorth>in small economies, giant clusters form
14:54<andythenorth>which is boring for play
14:55<andythenorth>these are ‘interesting’ problems
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd try removing those double /256
14:55<andythenorth>it’s a shame they can’t be delegated away from newgrf, but we are where we are :P
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they look wrong
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>oh. nml seems to exponentiate it
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>how horrible
14:58<andythenorth>nml is a v1 :)
14:58<andythenorth>it is productive, but sometimes odd
14:59<andythenorth>also slow :D
14:59<andythenorth>did I mention that ever?
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15:02<Eddi|zuHause>bwhäh this piece of nml looks horrible. who made that?
15:03<Johnnei>git blame :D
15:03<frosch123>can't be andy
15:03<frosch123>andy only writes python
15:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: which bit?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>nml is written in python
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>expr = expression.BinOp(nmlop.ADD, expr, expression.ConstantNumeric(info['log_offset'], expr.pos), expr.pos)
15:04<andythenorth>‘nml is python’ != ‘python in nml’ :P
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>return expression.BinOp(nmlop.SHIFT_LEFT, expression.ConstantNumeric(1, expr.pos), expr, expr.pos)
15:04<frosch123>oh, you were talking about nml itself, not about a grf
15:04<andythenorth>eh, I don’t write that :D
15:04<andythenorth>_apparently_ nml also uses a lot of global vars, and then scribbles over them constantly
15:04<andythenorth>which made sad a person who I tried to interest in making it faster
15:04<andythenorth>dunno if that analysis holds up or not
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>it probably does
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Änderung: 916:ca00363fd131
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Nutzer: Hirundo
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Datum: Tue Oct 26 14:31:38 2010 +0200
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Zusammenfassung: Feature #1729: Support reading various 'patch variables' via actionD.
15:08<frosch123>you hjave a weird locale configuration
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i just thought that as well
15:09<frosch123>german messages, but american time
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably hg's fault...
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>> date
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>Fr 22. Mai 21:09:24 CEST 2015
15:10<Johnnei>Funny how my irc client reports that message at 21:09:48
15:11<frosch123>install ntp
15:11<frosch123>i don't know whether eddi has it
15:12<frosch123>but you are 8 seconds off
15:13<Johnnei>I thought I already configured windows to use a working time server, seems not :p
15:14<andythenorth>nice screenshot
15:14<andythenorth>quite zoomed out though
15:16<frosch123>V453000: so, are you playing again?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, it took me a few seconds to copy it over from the console...
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: too unrealistic
15:18<@Alberth>nice white mountain andy :)
15:19<andythenorth>the tree growth algorithm is out of control
15:20<andythenorth>and the smoke direction is wrong for some reason
15:20<andythenorth>is that a bug in their newgrf?
15:20<andythenorth>someone should tell the author
15:20<andythenorth>at least the lighting is correct
15:28<Supercheese>need to replace the smoke detectors eh
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15:37<andythenorth>they’re actually building the ETF trucks finally
15:38<andythenorth>going to a Vale mine in Brazil
15:38*andythenorth should put them in South American Road Hog
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16:12<Taede>[2015-05-22 19:55:39] dbg: [net] send failed with error 32 <-- whereabouts would i find out what that error means?
16:12<Taede>(its the adminport btw)
16:13<Rubidium>in your local operating system's manual about the send API
16:15<Taede>ah, so not ottd specific then
16:16<Taede>hm, broken pipe, not very helpful
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>that usually means that the receiving program exited
16:16<Taede>or disconnected at leasst
16:16<frosch123>32 is broken pipe
16:17<frosch123>eints threw that when we did not read packets completely from the socket
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16:20<Taede>soap disconnects because it reads an empty packet
16:21<Taede>is there a way to see what packets openttd tries to send (adminport only) ?
16:22<Taede>the problem only seems to occur on one stable (through several revisions) when there is lots of activity (plenty companies and vehicles)
16:23<frosch123>there is only debug output when sending fails
16:23<frosch123>but, well that's the 32 message which you got
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16:33<Taede>ah, the magic of time.sleep
16:34<andythenorth>2 more FIRS industries refactored
16:34*andythenorth kicking goals :P
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16:38<andythenorth>is he right about docks in Ports and such?
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is no "right" or "wrong"
16:59<andythenorth>but decisions have to be made...
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>the heliport thing is minor at best
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>the transfer issue is totally besides the point
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the problem i see is that you cannot use builtin docks for transferring from trains/trucks (e.g. supplies)
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17:11<andythenorth>I’m not convinced it solves anything
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17:17<andythenorth>also bedtime
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19:19<Eddi|zuHause>"Ich bin soo satt, ich mag kein Blatt"?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>(is this fairy tale not so well known in the english speaking world? the wikipedia article seems like a stub)
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>(stupid american kids probably don't know anything if it wasn't in a disney movie)
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21:04<supermop>yo pikka
21:05<Pikka>yoyo supermop
21:06<supermop>hows brisbane today?
21:06<Pikka>fine. :) a little cool.
21:06<supermop>do they have dmus there? it seems like the wires go all the way out to the far off ends of the line
21:07<supermop>even on the single tracked bits
21:08<Pikka>Brisbane is all electrified. I think there's still an old diesel railcar that does a tourist train out to woop woop.
21:08<Pikka>and this one goes from Brisbane to Cairns, but isn't really a DMU. ;)
21:09<supermop>never seen that before
21:09<supermop>also, how long of a journey is that?
21:10<Pikka>to Cairns? 1600km iirc.
21:10<Pikka>about a thousand miles.
21:10<Pikka>half as far again as Brisbane to Sydney :)
21:10<supermop>10 hours at least i imagine?
21:11<supermop>I saw the hst thing here a few weeks ago in the station
21:11<Pikka>the tilt train does 160km/h, so yeah :)
21:11<Pikka>the XPT? yeah :)
21:11<supermop>would have been fun to take to sydney but really cannot justify that vis a vis cheap airfare
21:11<Pikka>done that one from Brisbane to Sydney and back once, never again :P
21:12<Pikka>it's so slow, and not very comfortable for how long it takes.
21:12<supermop>it doesnt even do 125mph if i recall,
21:12<supermop>must be better than ha noi to sai gon at least
21:13<Pikka>it has a maximum speed of 160km/h / 100mph
21:13<Pikka>between brisbane and sydney I think it averages about 50km/h :P
21:14<supermop>soo slower than a tram then
21:15<Pikka>well that might be an exaggeration
21:15<supermop>just extend the melb tram network up to brisbane
21:15<Pikka>but it takes about 14 hours
21:15<Pikka>vs 1.5 hours (and cheaper) to fly... yeah.
21:15<supermop>is the train at least luxurious?
21:15<Pikka>not at all
21:16<supermop>im sure could refit some sleeper compartments into some old Z1 class trams
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21:24<supermop>how's school going?
21:24<Pikka>got my assignment in last night
21:24<Pikka>2000 words due monday, I'll start after the Eurovision final :)
21:26<Flygon>Everyone knows the ultimate in Australian HST technology is the VLocity
21:27<Flygon>Which's also a bit depressing because they only go up to 177km/h in normal service (and even that's overspeed...)
21:33<supermop>fiance is in the thick of finishing up masters assignments here - pretty hectic
21:37<Pikka>good stuff
21:45<supermop>then after that need to arange to ship stuff back and hopefully have a couple days to enjoy the cold and rain before heading home
21:53<supermop>i wonder if bikeshare stations could work in game
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22:44<supermop>made guacamole
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22:57<kamnet>mmmmmmmmmmm quacamole. Now i'm hungry supermop
23:01<supermop>tomato i had was no good though
---Logclosed Sat May 23 00:00:58 2015