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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-24

---Logopened Sun May 24 00:00:00 2015
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02:02<andythenorth>moin
02:02<@peter1138>yes
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02:02-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
02:03<Pikka>very
02:03<@Alberth>great trucks pikka
02:03<Pikka>thankyou :)
02:03<@Alberth>V will be very happy with yeti transport :)
02:04<Pikka>I put them in the trains, figured I shouldn't leave them out of the rvs ;)
02:04<@Alberth>you should add a steering wheel, so he can drive himself :)
02:04<@Alberth>perhaps a bit too much V :)
02:13<andythenorth>Duel tanker
02:13<andythenorth>nice
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02:17<Flygon>Hey, dumb question
02:17<Flygon>Since y'all technical folk
02:17<Flygon>CUETools is giving me shit about the following
02:17<Flygon><Flygon> Exception: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and
02:17<Flygon><Flygon> less than the size of the collection.
02:17<Flygon><Flygon> Parameter name: index
02:18<Flygon>Now, I'm presuming it's confused because something some such happened wth the .bin and the .cue somehow being a bit off
02:18<Flygon>Even tho they burn completely perfectly in ImgBurn
02:18<Flygon>Anyone got any ideas how to fix this?
02:21<andythenorth>new refinery https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7299/oil_refinery.png
02:22<Flygon>Ooh
02:22<Flygon>I like it!
02:26<@Alberth>nice andy
02:27<andythenorth>eh Dan did it
02:27<andythenorth>cut-copy-paste of existing sprites
02:29<@Alberth>fair enough :)
02:29<andythenorth>trying to eliminate industries using base set sprites
02:31*andythenorth wonders when FIRS32 will be done
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02:37<andythenorth>bbl
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04:19<Pikka>hmm
04:19<Pikka>is pikkarail.com not loading for anyone else?
04:20<Taede>loads for me
04:21<Rubidium>can't say it isn't loading for me
04:21<Pikka>how odd
04:21<Pikka>thanks guys
04:22<Rubidium>maybe it's the Australian internet filter?
04:23<Flygon>Hahaha
04:23<Flygon>We'll never live it down
04:23<Flygon>:(
04:24<Flygon>Yep
04:25<Flygon>Ripped very well, hahaha
04:25<Flygon>No pregaps :D
04:28<Flygon>...
04:28<Flygon>I said that to the wrong channel
04:28<Flygon>Sorry, guys.
04:28<Flygon>(been trying to rip the damn music off this AoE CD all afternoon)
04:38-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host246-73-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:38<Wolf01>O7
04:38<Wolf01>O/
04:39<Wolf01>uhm, I have a big head today
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05:47<@Alberth>hihi
05:48<andythenorth>lo
05:48<andythenorth>so 32 cargos per newgrf then?
05:56<@Alberth>you'd want to have several industry newgrfs loaded?
06:00<andythenorth>dunno
06:01<andythenorth>for FIRS, the main justification for this is sandboxing
06:01<andythenorth>it clears up the mess with default vehicles
06:01<andythenorth>which is really quite broken
06:02<andythenorth>I have no interest in > 32 cargos in a game
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06:10<@Alberth>obviously you can make two newgrfs
06:10<andythenorth>yes
06:11<andythenorth>or load multiple existing industry newgrfs
06:11<andythenorth>which is a thing people do anyway
06:11<@Alberth>what I don't understand the "per newgrf" thing
06:11<@Alberth>ECS is even designed that way
06:11<andythenorth>I favoured the ’32 per newgrf’ so I can ignore players who request more :P
06:11<andythenorth>and because limits force better design choices
06:12<@Alberth>there is a poll or so?
06:12<andythenorth>nah
06:12<andythenorth>this is down to ‘frosch will decide, or he may decide to do nothing'
06:12<andythenorth>ENoFrosch
06:13<@Alberth>but if you don't want > 32 cargoes in a game, why the "per newgrf" ?
06:13<@Alberth>you can also say "in total" ?
06:14<andythenorth>hmm, not sure
06:14<andythenorth>proposal was from frosch :)
06:14<andythenorth>iirc
06:14<@Alberth>oh, missed that
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06:16<andythenorth>default vehicles are extra-broken with FIRS now
06:16<andythenorth>and there’s no good way to handle the problem
06:16<andythenorth>unless FIRS also includes vehicles
06:16<andythenorth>should FIRS include vehicles? o_O
06:18<@Alberth>make a FIRS baseset, like V :)
06:19<andythenorth>interesting idea
06:19<andythenorth>I’d want to ship it included in the grf
06:19<@Alberth>check for known compatible vehicle sets, and if missing throw a warning
06:20<andythenorth>nah, chases a moving target :)
06:20<andythenorth>and also might annoy authors who aren’t listed
06:21<andythenorth>also, apparently OpenTTD is already supposed to identify if no vehicles are available for a cargo
06:21<andythenorth>although mine doesn’t
06:22<Taede>just check against any vehicle set being loaded, and check against known incompatible ones
06:22<Taede>that way new ones (which should be compatible) wont require you to add them to the list
06:23<andythenorth>nah
06:23<andythenorth>default vehicles isn’t a set
06:23<andythenorth>so can’t check for that
06:23<andythenorth>:)
06:24<Taede>but you can check if there is no vehicle set loaded at all, presumably?
06:24<andythenorth>nah
06:24<andythenorth>only by having the list of all known vehicle sets
06:24<andythenorth>which isn’t knowable
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06:27<@Alberth>iirc, I once tried to check for compatibility, don't remember if it ended up in trunk
06:28<@Alberth>it doesn't work nicely, as you have these "all but X" compatibilities
06:29<@Alberth>i think we should move to unique ids for cargoes
06:30<@Alberth>don't know how feasible that is
06:30<@Alberth>maybe it's just fixing default vehicles?
06:31<andythenorth>maybe
06:32<supermop>what am i supposed to use in nars to carry metal etc around
06:32*andythenorth thinks replace default vehicles with a grf :P
06:32<supermop>all these engines look the same to me
06:32<andythenorth>totally isolated, just give the grf a special location and ship it with OpenTTD
06:32<@Alberth>it's nice that you can play without any newgrf
06:32<andythenorth>no new code needed, except to handle loading the special grf, and compiling it
06:33<@Alberth>and I see no big problems in defining PASS etc for default vehicles
06:33<andythenorth>well yes
06:33<andythenorth>it just means touching OpenTTD code
06:33*andythenorth favours dogfood approach :P
06:34<@Alberth>then you never solve the case where a user donwloads eg FIRS, and nothing else
06:34<andythenorth>if OpenTTD ships the default vehicles grf, then it’s solved
06:34<@Alberth>even I got tricked by that with OpenGFX+industries
06:34<@Alberth>same cargoes, not compatible
06:34<andythenorth>yes
06:35<supermop>all of these freight locomotives go 112kmh going to mess up passenger timetables
06:35<andythenorth>supermop: it’s realism
06:35<supermop>if i wanted to play a realistic nrth american game i'd have no passenger service at all
06:36<andythenorth>Alberth: it’s a problem for all industry sets I think
06:36<andythenorth>my favourite option for FIRS is to disable all default vehicles :P
06:36<andythenorth>sledgehammer, nut :P
06:37<@Alberth>would work
06:37<andythenorth>brute force :)
06:37<@Alberth>they are totally useless with firs anyway
06:37<@Alberth>except pax perhaps
06:38<@Alberth>but in my view, we should stop with the cargo slot crap and use ids everywhere
06:39<andythenorth>agreed
06:39<@Alberth>maybe add some newgrf-ish feature to map slots and ids onto each other
06:39<@Alberth>although that is perhaps the cargo table already
06:40<andythenorth>there are various props for that kind of thing :)
06:40<andythenorth>cargos are not short of properties :)
06:40<@Alberth>too much detail for random stuff you throw in trains :p
06:41<andythenorth>+1
06:42<andythenorth>bbl
06:42<@Alberth>although I must confess I don't like using a pax ship for transporting coal :)
06:42<andythenorth>he :)
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06:59<Flygon>supermop: Depends
06:59<Flygon>In Victoria?
07:00<Flygon>You'd have the freight locos going faster than pax
07:00<Flygon>:B
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07:27<@Alberth>hihi
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07:36<frosch123>yay, new pikka pictures
07:36<frosch123>old trucks with huge yetis on them
07:37<@Alberth>they look great :)
07:37<@Alberth>no I just have to find time to play with them
07:37<frosch123>the cabin looks a bit small compared to the huge trailers
07:37<frosch123>not sure what the closed vans are for
07:39<@Alberth>valuables? :)
07:40<@Alberth>or goods or food
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07:49<frosch123>huh, are all depots in the new nuts invisible?
07:50<frosch123>oh, nvm, i guess i broke ottd
07:50-!-Pikka [~sammich@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
07:53<Pikka>glad you like them, frosch
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08:52<frosch123>V453000: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/cc_trunk.png https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/cc_gradientremap.png <- it looks different
08:53<frosch123>ignore the dark green, it's only a 8bpp sprite
08:54<frosch123>i have a feeling we may need both, but i have no idea how one would create sprites for that
08:55<frosch123>one could also try to combine them
08:55<V453000>interesting :)
08:55<frosch123>black - cc begin - cc end - white
08:59<V453000>regarding the look it looks like the contrast is lost but idk how much it can be worked with :)
09:00<frosch123>well, that is also a matter of the sprites
09:00<frosch123>previously 0 was black, now 0 is the dark shade or cc gradient
09:01<V453000>yeah
09:02<V453000>shouldnt 0 stay black/very dark though ? :P
09:03<frosch123>as dark as the original vehicle s:p
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09:04<andythenorth>quak
09:05<TrueBrain>you are a plane?
09:05<andythenorth>a bird
09:05<TrueBrain>ah!
09:12<frosch123>V453000: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/cc_gradient40C0.png <- some intermediate thign
09:12<V453000>better :)
09:12<V453000>the idea imo shouldnt be to kill contrast, just to allow more CC shades :)
09:14<frosch123>well, you cannot adjust the algorithm using a single engine sprite :p
09:15<V453000>sure
09:16<frosch123>zbase bridges become a lot brighter in both new algorithms
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09:16<V453000>mhm
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>that giant eye looks creeeeeeepy
09:17<frosch123>no, cute
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09:25<andythenorth>iron ore mine
09:25<andythenorth>default one is daft
09:26<andythenorth>not everything has to be in scale, but still
09:26<andythenorth>it’s too small for an open pit mine
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>it wasn't an open pit mine in TTO
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>those graphics were used for the copper mine in TTD, which always confused me
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i see a copper mine, i think iron ore mine
09:32<andythenorth>FIRS reuses the copper mine sprites for bauxite :)
09:32<andythenorth>also
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>which doesn't make this easier :p
09:33<andythenorth>Dan has mocked up a deep-mine layout for iron ore mine
09:34*andythenorth looking for photos for inspiration
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09:43<supermop>maybe just have various generic deep and open mines?
09:43<supermop>then color the piles of stuff outside to whatever it's meant to be
09:45<andythenorth>that’s the direction of travel
09:45<andythenorth>but needs a little more interest / distinction
09:45<andythenorth>FIRS coal mine uses the off-green colour, same as default
09:45<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#coal_mine
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>we've had endless discussions about colour of bauxite before...
09:46<andythenorth>that yes :)
09:46<andythenorth>CHIPS has it wrong
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>it may make it difficult to distinguish bauxite and iron ore mines
09:46<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/entry/sprites/graphics/bauxite_cargo.png
09:46<andythenorth>+1
09:49<@Alberth>neon-green!
09:50<andythenorth>IRL, underground mines seem rare for bauxite
09:50<andythenorth>I can’t find any :P
09:54<supermop>pre-20th C you could have volcanic mud pits for it
09:54<supermop>as that was pretty much the only pre-modern way to get aluminum
09:55<supermop>i'm playing my first ever NARS game
09:55<supermop>don't care for the american trains
09:56<supermop>mostly just wanted to build some HSR routes with metroliners
10:07<andythenorth>hmm
10:07<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=971629#p971629
10:07<andythenorth>also
10:07<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=971470#p971470
10:07<andythenorth>do open pit mines work?
10:08<andythenorth>it would be a PITA to make it look good; worth it?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>those two look quite alright
10:09<andythenorth>they seem small to me
10:09<andythenorth>even allowing for scale compression
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>the giant excavator might be a bit misplaced
10:09<andythenorth>looks like 9x9
10:09<andythenorth>biggest FIRS industry is probably a 9x7 fruit plantation
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, we've had plenty of discussions about industry sizes already
10:10<andythenorth>yes
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, open pit mines should be giant
10:10<andythenorth>one option would be to draw sprites for every possible slope combination
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>you need to account for some elevation changes in this area
10:11<andythenorth>including options to join to neighbouring tile correctly
10:11<andythenorth>but that is….much work
10:11<frosch123>andythenorth: if you would do deep mines, you only need piles of different colour outside
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>use always the same sprites, with different height offsets?
10:11<andythenorth>open pit mines are benched, so it’s not implausible to try and draw sprites for them
10:11<frosch123>which should already exist in various station sets
10:12*andythenorth ponders a hack on foundations :O
10:12<andythenorth>custom foundations...
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>except at the rim, maybe
10:12<andythenorth>frosch123: you wouldn’t find it boring to have 3 types of mine, all same colour + sprites, except for cargo?
10:13<frosch123>widelands also only has minimal deviations on the mines
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think that is an entirely valid approach
10:13<frosch123>like material and maybe roof shape
10:13<andythenorth>I could recolour the buildings at least
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: widelands (or settlers) materials are more obviously distinguished than iron ore and bauxite
10:14<andythenorth>Dan has done this for bauxite, but I dunno https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7154/Bauxite_mine1.png
10:14<andythenorth>open pit is tricky
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>that looks both too small and too bland
10:14<andythenorth>drawing the excavated rock is hard
10:15<@Alberth>too green, and I doubt you'd see the bauxite
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>green buildings always look off to me
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>... one of the reasons i don't play with TTRS
10:16<andythenorth>interesting
10:16*andythenorth considers recolouring FIRS quarry buildings
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>(i never even got far enough with TTRS to get annoyed by towns full of skyscrapers)
10:16<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#clay_pit
10:17<andythenorth>^ colour of tropic grass tile
10:17<andythenorth>in proper base set
10:17<Cif>I've compiled openttd trunk with gcc 5.1.0 on Archlinux and I have a small diff to mute a warning, I'm using the git repo, how can I submit a patch?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>the only green buildings i see, ever, are copper roofs
10:18<andythenorth>different green :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#brewery
10:18<andythenorth>I could CC the quarry
10:18<andythenorth>it’s on the list for tweaks anyway
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds reasonable
10:19<TrueBrain>Cif: by making a patch out of it, and submitting it to https://bugs.openttd.org/
10:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: clay pit is fine, it's the green excavator that kills the picture for me
10:23<andythenorth>better in company colour?
10:24<@Alberth>and something of a ramp edge at the south-west :)
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the excavator is even worse than the buildings
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>the empty truck should maybe be sloped
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>and the full truck is practically invisible on that ground
10:24<andythenorth>or moved / removed
10:25<andythenorth>that industry probably has had 2x or 3x more work than any other :)
10:25<andythenorth>for not 2x or 3x better result :)
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>indeed.
10:26<andythenorth>shading the banks :|
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>but one part of the project always uses 90% of the work :p
10:26<andythenorth>standard
10:26<andythenorth>well it’s on a list for repaint + animate
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>the slope doesn't look like much of a slope
10:27<andythenorth>it’s not
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>make the pit deeper, and the slope longer/more distinguished
10:27<andythenorth>shallow excavation
10:28<andythenorth>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Sand_and_gravel_pit,_Old_Warden,_Beds_-_geograph.org.uk_-_171226.jpg
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>(and it is still too small for an open pit mine)
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>i'm talking about the bauxite mine, not the clay pit
10:29<andythenorth>oh yeah
10:29<andythenorth>+1 to that then
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>the clay pit is basically fine
10:30<andythenorth>any kind of open pit mine needs a lot of care
10:30<andythenorth>slopes :|
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10:33<andythenorth>the original TTD iron-ore mine is blatantly a drift mine ;)
10:33<andythenorth>must be
10:33<andythenorth>dunno where the drift is :)
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11:06*andythenorth ponders
11:13*TrueBrain ponders with you
11:19<andythenorth>it helps
11:29*andythenorth dibbles FIRS primary production
11:29<andythenorth>higher for farms
11:30<andythenorth>and greater range of randomisation on construction
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>i just read "disables"
11:30<andythenorth>he
11:30<andythenorth>the values were distorted by me playing too much NoCarGoal
11:31<andythenorth>shame I can’t randomise the production multipler property on build, to vary per cargo
11:31<andythenorth>multiplier *
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>really? i'd have expected that to work individually for each output cargo
11:32<andythenorth>nah
11:32<andythenorth>the production level is changed, not the multiplier
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>then i have no idea how it works at all
11:33<andythenorth>very few of us do
11:36<andythenorth>iirc, monthly production = production level (per industry, default 16) * production multiplier (per cargo) * 8 [9]
11:37<andythenorth>the cb to set prod. level on build sets…prod level
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>so why would you want to vary the production multiplier when it is global=
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>?
11:39<andythenorth>so e.g. arable farm has prod. multiplier [10, 10]
11:40<andythenorth>grain, sugar beet
11:40<andythenorth>so the two cargos are always produced in same amount, lockstep
11:40<andythenorth>some players don’t like that
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>but changing the multiplier would automatically change the production of ALL industries
11:40<@Alberth>randomize amounts on creation?
11:40<andythenorth>production multiplier isn’t global to FIRS, the ‘per cargo’ means defined per cargo at each industry
11:41<andythenorth>sorry for confusion :)
11:41<andythenorth>Alberth: would need a new cb, but yes that’s one option
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>then i still don't understand
11:41<andythenorth>the other is to use the production cb
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>so industries have a production level which is fixed at creation, and a multiplier that is increased/decreased during the game?
11:43<andythenorth>vice versa
11:43<andythenorth>the terminology is known to be confusing :)
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>the multiplier is fixed and the level varies?
11:44<andythenorth>yes
11:44<andythenorth>it’s a neat system :P
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't vary the level by cargo?
11:45<andythenorth>by using the production cb, it’s relatively trivial
11:45<andythenorth>just means handling the production cb, which is awkward
11:46<andythenorth>FIRS primary industries already do that to handle supplies
11:46<andythenorth>I could poke at that
11:48<andythenorth>probably stick some random multiplier in permanent storage
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>let's conclude that i can't give you any advice on that
11:48<andythenorth>me neither :|
11:48<andythenorth>not my code :)
11:50*andythenorth reads it
11:50<andythenorth>ok, so I could read the prod_multiplier values when the industry is constructed
11:50<andythenorth>add a random -ve/+ve increment
11:51<andythenorth>store that to perm register
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>can you really? sounds like data that is not yet available on construction
11:51<andythenorth>dunno, it’s an industry prop
11:51*andythenorth will test in a bit
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>callbacks run during construction usually cannot access such variables
11:52<andythenorth>hmm
11:52<andythenorth>I could read it during production cb
11:52<andythenorth>probably works
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>if callbacks wish to use such data, it must be passed via extra_callback_info1/2
11:52<andythenorth>not even sure it’s adding anything to gameplay :P
11:53<andythenorth>does it matter to have some farms produce more livestock than milk, and vice versa?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to run combined trains, keeping the values together is preferable
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>if they change separately, then you have to constantly adapt train composition
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>(or use refit at station)
11:55<@Alberth>not if you do 'fully load one cargo'
11:55<@Alberth>you may run partly empty, but who cares
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that only helps prevent short-term lockups, but it's still inefficient
11:56*andythenorth favours leaving it alone
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>part of the problem is that production always makes these double/half jumps
11:56<andythenorth>nah, not in FIRS
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>so every production change must be met with a capacity change. you can't have sensible reserves
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, i haven't played with modern FIRS yet
11:57<andythenorth>it has the same problem, but mediated by supplies
11:58<andythenorth>single -> double -> quadruple production
11:58<andythenorth>hitting quadruple means a lot more infrastructure / vehicles
11:58<andythenorth>and unless the networks are totally segregated, any failure to deliver supplies causes total deadlock
11:59<andythenorth>it’s valid for playing NoCarGoal in 3-hour multiplayer games
11:59<andythenorth>but otherwise not
11:59<andythenorth>suggestions?
12:00<andythenorth>my notes are ‘more options, on player parameter: linear, geometric’ :P
12:01<@Alberth>while I usually don't bother with supplies, I can see the value in the mechanism
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think supplies should be sublinear
12:01<@Alberth>it forces players to handle big variations in transport capacity
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>if you double the supplies, you don't get double the production
12:01<@Alberth>at least, if you are prepared to move everything you get
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>and supplies should be less dependent on timetables
12:02<andythenorth>they are sub-linear currently
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>so when you deliver supplies <whenever>, the effect should degrade over time, not suddenly disappear when a delivery fails
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12:03<andythenorth>I considered extending the window
12:03<andythenorth>with a ramp-down
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>that probably does not help
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe good would be an s-curved decay
12:05<andythenorth>what about ramped production?
12:05<andythenorth>hmm
12:05<@Alberth>just do a linear ramp-down?
12:05<andythenorth>nah, annoying latency
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>if delivery of supplies was less than 1 month ago, little decay, between 1-3 months steadily climbing decay, after that, decay is dropped drastically, but not quite disappears
12:05<andythenorth>(ramping production up would be annoying)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>what is "ramped"?
12:06<andythenorth>same as your proposal for decay, but linear
12:06<andythenorth>same concept
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>basically my suggestion would work somewhat like the default station rating
12:06<andythenorth>different curve
12:06<@Alberth>in the initial yeti programming, I once programmed that you needed 10 production iterations to get rid of the collected input cargo, it has the effect that out is not immediate, which is nice, imho
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>a delayed effect of increase would work this way as well
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>so delivering supplies increases a maximum value, and the production slowly increases to this maximum
12:08<andythenorth>delayed effect doesn’t show you what production amount you need capacity for :)
12:08<andythenorth>hmm
12:09<andythenorth>industry window text is the main problem here :|
12:09<@Alberth>perhaps use X amount of provided supplies / month, if you get more, you get high production longer
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>the maximum decays if delivery is not repeated
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the current mechanism is probably fine for certain play styles, so don't just throw it out
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>example: production output may be any value between 100% and 400%. sum of supplies deliveries during last 3 months (rolling average) sets the maximum production also to a value between 100% to 400%. production value changes by +/-1% in each production cycle towards the current maximum
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>this means, if supplies delivery disappears, maximum production drops down to 100% in 3 months, but production output will be higher than 100% for a longer time
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>this also means, you can have random events that increase/decrease the production output (with their effect vanishing over time if not met with a change in supplies delivery)
12:19<andythenorth>not planning to throw out the current mechanic, it’s battle tested
12:19<andythenorth>I want to offer one or more alternatives
12:19<andythenorth>and not just some ‘change values here’ parameters that will baffle most players :P :)
12:20<andythenorth>ok so rolling average
12:20<andythenorth>assume ‘requirement’ is 60t / month for 400% production (example values)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>this separation between current and maximum output factors may also be used for secondary industries
12:21<andythenorth>if 3 month rolling average is 45t, produce this month at 300%
12:21<andythenorth>?
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>so if you deliver a steel mill with only ore, production will be 100%. if you start delivering coal as well, max production will be 200%, but actual production will slowly rise from 100% to 200%
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how to come from "amount of supplies delivered" to "x%" is a different issue
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: say i have never delivered supplies before. then max and current output is 100%
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then i deliver 60t supplies
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: max immediately jumps to 400%, but current is 101%, 102%, 103% in each 256-tick production step
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>after 3 months, there were about 25 production steps, so production is 125%
12:25<andythenorth>that is somewhat like original FIRS
12:25<andythenorth>ish
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>if i never delivered supplies again
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>then max would drop to 100%, but production goes 124%, 123%, ...
12:26<andythenorth>how to explain to players?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>effect of supplies on production: immediate [current]/delayed[new]
12:27<@Alberth>if you deliver more, production will rise, but slowly
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>or "on production boost"
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: old FIRS was different, because it relied on the builtin randomized production changes. there is nothing randomized in this proposal
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: with this 1% change, going from 100% to 200% takes about a year
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe dropping can be accelerated to 2%
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>or dropping is 1% if between 100 and 150%, 2% if between 150% and 200%, 3% if between 200% and 250%, ... then missing delivery may have a bigger impact on higher levels
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>but it's still not immediately causing a deadlock
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>if a farm is hit by a random event that halves production, then on original 100% production, it takes half a year to recover. if you were on 400%, (and thus dropped to 200%) it takes 2 years to recover
12:39<andythenorth>so this is labelled ‘gradualist’ or something
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't come up with that word :p
12:40<andythenorth>I am not planning to actually ship FIRS 2 for some time, so this could be implemented and tested
12:40<andythenorth>provide a better word :)
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, "effect of supplies on production: {immediate|gradual}" could work
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think this proposal is difficult to implement
12:48<andythenorth>no
12:48<andythenorth>needs handling in a few cbs
12:48<andythenorth>text is the hardest part :P
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>text: "current production level is X% {({increasing|decreasing} towards Y% due to {surplus|shortage} of supplies)}"
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>where each {} is a nested sub-string that needs pushing to the stack
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>if X==Y, then the second part is omitted
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>if X>Y then the second part contains decreasing/shortage
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>if X<Y then the second part contains increasing/surplus
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>can be done in one switch, if X and Y are cached in storage
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>may be easier in two steps, where the first one checks for X==Y
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: something along these lines: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfbsx79gc
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, "STORE_TEMP," should read "STORE_TEMP("
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the string would then be something like "current production level is {0:NUM} ({2:STRING} towards {1:NUM} due to {3:STRING})"
13:07<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7674
13:08<andythenorth>kids bath time, bad time to test this :)
13:08<andythenorth>but I’ve added the issue
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>one would assume kids at some point learn to bathe by themselves :p
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>(possibly after flooding the living room once) :p
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>(including water dropping through the downstairs neighbours' ceiling)
13:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what is about this mechanic that appeals to you?
13:15<andythenorth>+ it
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that it is less dependent on exact timetabling. you just sort of throw things at the industry and it balances out at some value
13:18<andythenorth>what will be the effect on capacity for picking up cargo?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>same as now, if you're efficient at supplies delivery, production will end up at 400%
13:20<andythenorth>you’ll spend more time adding ‘one more wagon’ to trains or ‘one more truck’ for RVs?
13:20*andythenorth wonders why we grow industry production
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>probably not. you balance for the expected final volume
13:20<andythenorth>on a tiny map it makes sense for gameplay, because you run out of things to connect
13:20<andythenorth>would static industry production be better on larger maps?
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: low starting production is better when starting out. you're not immediately swamped with cargo
13:21<andythenorth>also vehicles improve
13:21<andythenorth>speed, capacity per tile
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: once you get a decent network going, you have more money to invest
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and can invest that in improved capacity
13:21<andythenorth>ok, so I can rule out ‘static’ as a supplies mechanic
13:21<andythenorth>would be daft
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>probably
13:22<andythenorth>already achievable: just don’t deliver
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>there would also be no point in having supplies in the first place :p
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, people would just increase production by placing more industries nearby
13:25<andythenorth>that’s actually what I tend to do now
13:25<andythenorth>transporting supplies is quite tedious
13:25<andythenorth>and cdist isn’t very good at routing them
13:25<@Alberth>make them valuables?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you could have a mode where you remove supplies, and reinstate the original randomized growth algorithm
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>but i wouldn't use that :p
13:29<andythenorth>me neither
13:29<andythenorth>it never quite worked satisfactorily
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13:49<andythenorth>so Supplies Effect: Gradual | Immediate (Gentle) | Immediate (Aggressive)
13:49<andythenorth>current version is aggressive
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>what then is "gentle"?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, like i said, the gradual effect might also be useful on secondary industries
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>where the range may be 25% to 100% (of input cargo converted)
13:56<argoneus>WE ARE THE HEROES OF OUR TIME
13:56<argoneus>WHOO HOO HAA HOO
13:56<argoneus>WHOA HOO WHOA HAA
14:00<andythenorth>gentle is the 2x, 4x mechanic, but the values changed to 1.5x and 3x or so
14:00<andythenorth>and the window is maybe relaxed
14:00<andythenorth>I find providing 4x the capacity is tedious :P
14:01*andythenorth wonders about delivering annually :P
14:03<@Alberth>once in the entire game :p
14:04<andythenorth>that too
14:04<andythenorth>ach, 3% battery :(
14:04*andythenorth needs to deliver electricity
14:04<@Alberth>add a power plant :p
14:12<andythenorth>should there be a variant where supplies have unbounded effect?
14:12<andythenorth>(subject to newgrf spec production limit)
14:13<@Alberth>unbounded?
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14:13<andythenorth>currently max production is 4x default
14:13<andythenorth>that was a gameplay choice
14:13<andythenorth>I don’t think it’s interesting to deal with thousands of tonnes of output at a single industry
14:14<@Alberth>people do it the other way around :)
14:15<@Alberth>but you can just ignore the production
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe have two settings. one for the gradual/immediate method, and one for the maximum production multiplier
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>so people could have 1600% multiplier if they wish
14:17<andythenorth>wondering about that
14:18<andythenorth>I dislike that kind of parameter, but it might be valid here
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>(possibly required supplies would grow with this value)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>(or even have another setting for that)
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: two separate settings are imho better than combining unrelated things
14:20<andythenorth>I think my dislike is that it stops being a plain choice, and starts being an economic exercise
14:21<andythenorth>basically, like going to IKEA
14:21<andythenorth>without the upside of bad sausages and good mustard
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>what's there to have against horse sausage? :p
14:21<andythenorth>never knowingly tried horse :)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ever being at an ikea
14:22<andythenorth>you should go
14:22<andythenorth>as a scientific exercise
14:22<andythenorth>but you have to actually need furniture and utensils
14:22<andythenorth>otherwise it’s invalid
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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14:23<andythenorth>I am unconvinced by setting the max multiplier :)
14:24<andythenorth>there must be something more interesting to explore
14:24<andythenorth>Alberth: do you _ever_ deliver supplies?
14:24<andythenorth>o_O
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, have no limit but some extreme sublinear scaling
14:25<andythenorth>plausible
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>and have the effect in 50% steps
14:25<andythenorth>especially if the explanatory text is reworked (and uses text stack)
14:25<andythenorth>basically a ‘level up’ mechanic
14:25<andythenorth>with progressively greater requirement
14:25<@Alberth>very seldomly, basically after I am 'done' with the transport network
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>so 1 supply: 50%, 4 supplies: 100%, 9 supplies: 150%, 16 supplies: 200%
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>or something like that
14:27*andythenorth ponders powers of 2
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>or exponential instead of quadratic
14:27<andythenorth>or geometric requirements :P
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>that is the same thing :p
14:27<andythenorth>2, 4, 16, 256
14:27<andythenorth>:P
14:28<andythenorth>evils
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that is double-exponential?
14:28<andythenorth>level 5 would be…challenging :)
14:28<@Alberth>'impossible' :p
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that would be kinda the point :p
14:28<andythenorth>very big ship
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14:36<@Alberth>so yeah, I would like a bit more randomized industry behavior, but I can see it doesn't fit in your design
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i thought the design was supposed to take the randomness out... but if you want to add randomness, you could either change the base production, or the amount of supplies required for each "level up" on a per-industry-basis
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>so one industry has a 2,4,8,16 progression, and another industry has 3,9,21,63 progression
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14:57<andythenorth>interesting idea
14:57<andythenorth>biab
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15:59<andythenorth>Alberth: more randomized? o_O
16:00<@Alberth>well, without doing supplies, you set up an industry once, and you never ever have to check if there are sufficient trains etc
16:01*andythenorth wonders
16:01<andythenorth>can GS set the prod_level?
16:02<andythenorth>hmm
16:02<andythenorth>seems GS can only read industries
16:02<andythenorth>not set props
16:02<@Alberth>I would expect so, although that gives options :p
16:03<@Alberth>but payments for transported cargo are perhaps more interesting
16:03<andythenorth>how about an AI that deliver supplies? o_O
16:03<andythenorth>haphazardly :P
16:04<@Alberth>haha, could be fun :)
16:04<@Alberth>but I may interfer :p
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16:06<@Alberth>gn
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16:23<andythenorth>also
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17:26<Wolf01>'night
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19:02<sim-al2>Hi guys anyone here wiling to helo me set up a non-dedicated server? I've opened ports as per https://wiki.openttd.org/Server but I'm not seeing any thing on the server list
19:25<+glx>set it to advertise and check http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
19:26<+glx>some routers prevent servers from being accessed from local ip with outside ip
19:33<sim-al2>I did get that. It seems to work if I use dedicated mode now
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20:57<sim-al2>Ok update: I think that the server advertises for a minute then stops. I am using the dedicated mode and a player was able to find the server and join from the list but now the server does not appear.
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>that might mean you have a fishy connection
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>the masterserver uses UDP to test your server. if lots of packages get lost, it might not get a reply
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---Logclosed Mon May 25 00:00:01 2015