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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-25

---Logopened Mon May 25 00:00:01 2015
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02:01<@Alberth>moin
02:01<andythenorth>o/
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02:33*andythenorth considers a ‘casual’ supplies mechanic
02:33<andythenorth>for the player who can’t really be bothered :)
02:33<andythenorth>Alberth: ^ ? o_O
02:34<@Alberth>what does that mean?
02:35<@Alberth>and while flattered, tbh I am not sure you should do that, most players play firs for exactly the supplies, as I understand it
02:36<@Alberth>so as game mechanic it's a good concept
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02:38<@Alberth>obviously, I am aware I am dropping a large part of the game play by not handling supplies :)
02:40<Pokka>how does it work?
02:40<V453000>XD yeah how does it work
02:40<@Alberth>oh, I do use cdist for supplies, just drop supplies at a point 'nearby', and let a different train run a circle delivering; cdist does some form of splitting the delivered cargo :)
02:40<V453000>Pikka RVs look awsum
02:41<@Alberth>hello Vs and Pokkas
02:41<Pokka>hello
02:41<andythenorth>also
02:42*andythenorth hmms
02:42<andythenorth>how to code “you have made a token effort at delivering supplies, here is a small reward”
02:43<@Alberth>is there a point?
02:43<@Alberth>with BB, it's fun to deliver 25t coal to the other side of the map
02:43<@Alberth>if I have to deliver supplies, I can just as well do it properly
02:44<@Alberth>it's basically not much more than buying a longer train to move the stuff
02:47<@Alberth>perhaps my main problem with supplies is the precise timing of it
02:47<@Alberth>and lots of players seem to have troubles delivering the precise amount too
02:48<@Alberth>it's a bit like feeding tropic towns in the desert, they need food+water in the same month
02:48<andythenorth>it’s a very similar mechanic
02:48<@Alberth>it's hopeless if you try that with independent supply chains
02:49<@Alberth>supplies is better in the sense that you have 1 cargo, and a time window, instead of a calendar month
02:50*andythenorth wonders about quarterly amounts
02:50<@Alberth>to me, it's too much detailed messing about
02:50<andythenorth>and more stable production
02:50<@Alberth>on the other hand, lots of people really seem to like the idea
02:51<andythenorth>I am +/-0 to the whole concept
02:51<andythenorth>I don’t like the original TTD mechanic for increasing production
02:51<@Alberth>timetables, worried about the bearings of russian wagons, all very much detail
02:51<andythenorth>but I don’t think FIRS is categorically better
02:52<@Alberth>I don't think you can generalize such notions
02:52<@Alberth>the best you can do is decide for yourself
02:53<@Alberth>and even then, there is normally not a single winner
02:53<@Alberth>I like the increasing production, but it's my sytle of playing
02:55<@Alberth>if you make changes, make them additions, and keep the original behavior
02:55<argoneus>good morning train friends
02:55<@Alberth>people can try different variations, and decide what they like best
02:58<andythenorth>I am keeping current version
02:58<@Alberth>+1
02:58<andythenorth>the question is whether there are 1 or 2 alternatives that would be fun
02:59*andythenorth bbl :)
02:59<@Alberth>see you
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04:22<andythenorth>Pikka bob: industry production that increases by year. You canned all that?
04:24<@Alberth>wb
04:24<@Alberth>what are you trying to solve?
04:24<V453000>that sounds simple nicely, but I think it would be great if the player still gets the higher production only if it is serviced
04:24<@Alberth>change the mechanism, or add one as alternative, or improve it?
04:24<V453000>ie, just capping original industries at ~1000 units of cargo per month max would be fine
04:27<@Alberth>if you want to reduce the 3-months stress, you could simply store unused supplies rather than consume it without using it
04:28<@Alberth>perhaps with a small degradation, not sure you need that
04:29<@Alberth>an alternative can be to used delivery-based instead of time-based
04:30<@Alberth>if you want a more extreme variant, you could require a minimal amount of deliveries before producing stuff
04:42<andythenorth>“Alberth: what are you trying to solve?” <- I wonder that too
04:42<andythenorth>this is more of the experimental thinking
04:43<@Alberth>towards simplifying for casual players, towards more advanced players, something else?
04:44<andythenorth>dunno, towards inventing variety in gameplay I think
04:44<@Alberth>making it more complicated or more challenging?
04:44<andythenorth>challenging / different
04:44<andythenorth>PBI does that well
04:44<@Alberth>more rewarding
04:44<andythenorth>I can’t play PBI anymore, the stockpiling mechanic bores me horrid now, but it was fun for some time
04:45<@Alberth>stockpiling in itself isn't a problem, it's the capping that breaks things, imho
04:45<andythenorth>eh standard game progression for a player is modelled as: (1) learning the game (2) mastering the game (3) boredom
04:45<andythenorth>that’s your basic ludic theory
04:46<andythenorth>people write books that are much longer, but say the same :P
04:46<@Alberth>I think that holds universal
04:46<@Alberth>I have great respect for people that manage to eg run a shop for a decade
04:47<@Alberth>I would be bored beyond belief
04:47<andythenorth>so I am looking for new options for (1) a new mechanic to learn (2) a mechanic that is fun, not tedious
04:47<andythenorth>doesn’t have to be supplies
04:47<andythenorth>problem is, every “interesting” idea I think of, would be better in GS
04:48<@Alberth>at local industry level, I think you can only reward steady deliveries as 'new'
04:49<@Alberth>perhaps getting more output for the same output, if you keep input at the same level for a longer time?
04:49<@Alberth>ie the industry 'optimizes' on the input level
04:50<@Alberth>*for the same input
04:50<andythenorth>I think a ‘steady’ or ‘gradual’ mechanic is worth doing, probably along the lines Eddi suggested
04:51<andythenorth>anything else is beyond FIRS
04:51<@Alberth>the more optimized, the narrower the band of allowed deviations
04:51<Pikka>canned by year
04:52<andythenorth>because….silly?
04:52<andythenorth>or cba?
04:52<Pikka>although something more deterministic and controllable than "random" for sure.
04:52<@Alberth>I think it's all experimental anyway, you have to code and try it, to decide if it's useful
04:52<Pikka>by year makes assumptions about increasing carriage capacity over time
04:52<Pikka>too "realistic"
04:52<andythenorth>yair
04:53<Pikka>and also non-interactive
04:53<andythenorth>Pikka: what will your supplies do?
04:53<andythenorth>also how do Yetis work?
04:53<@Alberth>maybe have different mechanics for different industry types?
04:53*andythenorth could just steal someone else’s idea
04:53<@Alberth>afaik, yetis work very hard :)
04:53<Pikka>my supplies will either temporarily increase production, progress the industry towards an upgrade, or both. haven't really worked out any mechanics yet :)
04:54<andythenorth>‘level up’
04:54<andythenorth>(1) delivering gives a temp (30 day) boost to next level
04:54<andythenorth>(2) delivering consistently for 12 months makes that level permanent
04:54<andythenorth>this is like old FIRS + new FIRS
04:55<Pikka>something like that
04:55<andythenorth>is there a ‘level down’?
04:55<andythenorth> :P
04:55<Pikka>nope, I've got some idea about industries going bust though. if you level them up you have to maintain high service or they'll close down on you, or something.
04:56*andythenorth ponders designing for small maps
04:56<andythenorth>more micro-management
04:57<Pikka>test everything on 256*512 imo :P
04:57<Pikka>bigger maps are fundementally silly.
04:58<@Alberth>ECS closes down on you, Pikka
04:58<andythenorth>bigger maps introduce all kinds of problems
04:59<@Alberth>couldn't you just 'punish' by lowering production for some time?
04:59<andythenorth>eh, also micro-management is too easily dismissed as ‘micro-management is bad, mkay'
04:59<andythenorth>more micro-management imo, mediated by GS
05:00<Pikka>I think most of the specific mechanics will be switchonoffable
05:00<andythenorth>controversial
05:00<Pikka>since no-one can agree on what makes a good industry grf :P
05:00<andythenorth>I thought it was understood that ECS has nailed it?
05:00<andythenorth>dunno
05:00<Pikka>in general, I quite like the idea of industries closing and opening during gameplay, both primary and secondary.
05:00<@Alberth>by definition, people are never happy with what you give them
05:01<andythenorth>eh
05:01<Pikka>makes the game world more alive, makes network building less fire-and-forget
05:01<Pikka>more micromanagement ;)
05:01<Pikka>or middle-management, perhaps
05:01<andythenorth>let’s extend NoGo so it can handle the industry monthly and random cbs
05:01<andythenorth>then we get production level and closure
05:01<Pikka>it needs to happen in an explicable and predictable way though
05:02<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29
05:03*Pikka never played ECS... at least not for many years.
05:03<@Alberth>I would prefer a saner interface than n*2 times
05:03<andythenorth>0D and 0E
05:03<andythenorth>that’s how ‘old’ FIRS did it
05:04<@Alberth>ah, nice
05:04<andythenorth>that cb is feature-complete imo
05:04<andythenorth>it does everything a GS would need
05:04<andythenorth>and it’s only called monthly per industry, so not CPU intensive
05:05<andythenorth>or there’s a random equivalent, which varies by smooth / non-smooth economy iirc
05:05<andythenorth>“locusts eat your grain, your grain network is in chaos"
05:06<Pikka>nom nom nom
05:06<andythenorth>“3 years of good weather means bumper harvest"
05:06<@Alberth>cb can be used once / month only?
05:06<andythenorth>yes
05:06*Pikka sometimes wishes for a global random seed accessable to newgrf
05:06<andythenorth>I thought there was one?
05:06<Pikka>so we could have a bumper harvest, across all farms.
05:07<Pikka>I don't think so? I've been asking for one for a while...
05:07<andythenorth>I worked out a hack once by counting towns
05:07<andythenorth>or some such
05:07<Pikka>hmm
05:07<andythenorth>oh you can read town registers
05:07<andythenorth>strictly they could be used for message passing
05:07<andythenorth>never tried it
05:07<andythenorth>was advised it was a Bad Idea
05:07<Pikka>it sounds it :)
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05:39*andythenorth hi hoes
05:40<andythenorth>bbl
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06:18<supermop>yo
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06:20<supermop>is it wrong to use this huge 'centennial' diesel to pull passenggers?
06:28<Flygon>No
06:28<Flygon>Heavy Harry was designed for pax, afterall
06:28<Flygon>And it was Australia's singular most powerful locomotive from the 1930s through to 1995
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>you don't really have a lot of choice anyway
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06:45<@Alberth>hola
06:46<frosch123>hoi
06:53<supermop>the fp40 or whatever looks boring doubleheaded
06:54<@Alberth>ugh, palette of newgrfs is not saved :(
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, but where would you save it?
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07:01<@Alberth>in openttd.cfg probably
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07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose nobody bothered to implement it
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's only needed if your ancient grfs have mixed palettes
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>if all have the same palette, just use the default switch
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07:40<andythenorth>Pikka: wanna make an industry set together? o_O
07:40<Pikka>sure. when do you want to start? :D
07:41<andythenorth>about 4 years ago
07:41<Pikka>sounds about right
07:41<andythenorth>TAIFIRS
07:41<Pikka>I'll write some pineappleindustry documentation some time soon
07:41<Pikka>maybe after the kickstarter
07:41<Pikka>definitely after tonight, I have about another thousand words to write in the next 2 hours. :)
07:42<andythenorth>I like GarryG, he has sent me some PMs
07:42<andythenorth>nice bloke
07:42<andythenorth>someone should kick Pikka
07:42<andythenorth>so he wordses
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm having a hard time distinguishing which of these lines are ironic :p
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>(if in doubt: all of them.)
07:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sometimes even English people struggle with that
07:42<andythenorth>sometimes even the speaker [writer]
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07:54*andythenorth wonders what this ‘div’ and ‘multi’ do in FIRS clustering, and what they should be set to
07:56<andythenorth>I want slightly more clusters than I’m getting
07:57<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69
07:57<@Alberth>it's a work around for the obsessiveness of newgrf for integer numbers :)
07:58<@Alberth>ie you cannot multiply with 0.6
07:58<andythenorth>as far as I can see, if mult is 1, and div is 2
07:58<@Alberth>so you multiply with 3, and then divide by 5
07:58<andythenorth>I should get 2 clusters per map
07:58<andythenorth>on 256x256
07:59<andythenorth>a better algorithm would limit the number of industries per cluster, then go build more :P
07:59<andythenorth>mybe
07:59<@Alberth>mult and div just means ( (real)mult/div ) as multiplication factor
08:00<@Alberth>but in the integer domain, so you get an integer number as result
08:01<@Alberth>hmm, yeah, T3rkhen looked into that one at some time, but it appeared you cannot express "I want N industries at most" (for N=3)
08:02<andythenorth>hmm
08:02<andythenorth>so if mult = 1 and div = 3
08:02<andythenorth>how many clusters? :P
08:03<andythenorth>infinite?
08:04*andythenorth can’t do maths
08:05<@Alberth>Any idea what "industry_clusters" is at line 84?
08:05<andythenorth>map scaling factor
08:05<andythenorth>it’s a parameter
08:06<@Alberth>oh, wrong macro problably?
08:07<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/snakebite/entry/src/templates/parameters.pypnml
08:07<andythenorth>the comment is wrong on L6 I think
08:07<andythenorth>closures / clusters /s
08:08<@Alberth>industry_count(related) * mult / div / industry_clusters != 0 <-- this counts the related industries, multiplies it with 1/3 (in your case), and checks it's less than 1
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08:08<@Alberth>which of course fails if you have 3 or more industry_count(related)
08:08<@Alberth>(assuming the parameter is 1)
08:10<andythenorth>< 1 evaluates same as !=0 :o
08:10<andythenorth>integer maths, floor?
08:13<@Alberth>yes, unless they are negative
08:13<@Alberth>but that's about how you truncate a floating point number
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08:36<supermop>can i re-order my orders, but in the same order?
08:38<supermop>like right now the order list is "CDAB", can i easily make it "ABCD" without messing up my timetable?
08:39<supermop>apparently yes,
08:39<supermop>for some definitions of 'easily"
08:40<V453000>heyoo you arent asleep yet :) sending email in 1 minute :P
08:40<supermop>coool
08:41<andythenorth>so coal mine has mult = 2 and div = 3
08:41<andythenorth>so 1 cluster per 256*256 of map size
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08:45*andythenorth wonders if fractional amounts are worth bothering with
08:45<andythenorth>and also, FIRS doesn’t work at 256*256
08:45<andythenorth>so eh
08:46<andythenorth>maybe just specify number of clusters
08:47<@Alberth>make 'div' 1 :)
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09:08<andythenorth>ha
09:09<andythenorth>that’s plausible hax :P
09:10<andythenorth>I can’t see any code to enforce distance _between_ clusters
09:10<andythenorth>as I read that
09:11<andythenorth>until specified number of clusters, there is no check for distance to related industry
09:12<andythenorth>so clusters might easily co-locate
09:12<andythenorth>and I suspect that actually they do this
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09:31<andythenorth>hmm farms map probability was set insanely high
10:00<andythenorth>0 && 1 = 0
10:00<andythenorth>?
10:00<andythenorth>0 || 1 = 1
10:00<andythenorth>?
10:01<@Alberth>what is the problem?
10:01<@Alberth>'&&' means 'and', ie 'both must hold'
10:02<@Alberth>'||' means 'or', ie 'at least one must hold'
10:04<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L80
10:04<andythenorth>L84, I need to add another check
10:04<andythenorth>need to check “industry_count(related) * mult / div / industry_clusters == 0"
10:04<andythenorth>and also enforce a min. distance to another industry
10:05<andythenorth>would be easier done by splitting switches tbh, more readable
10:05<andythenorth>also if there were fewer \ chars :P
10:08<andythenorth>hmm
10:09<andythenorth>Alberth: got a game to hand? :P
10:09<andythenorth>nvm if you’re busy
10:10<@Alberth>I have 3 conversations going currently :)
10:11<andythenorth>I need a second opinion on last FIRS commit
10:11<andythenorth>not urgent
10:11<andythenorth>basically means running map gen a few times and giving opinion on primary industry distribution
10:11<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/d7127138eab4
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10:26<@Alberth>some industries are missing in 1950, that is intended I assume?
10:28<andythenorth>which ones?
10:28<andythenorth>recycling?
10:31<@Alberth>think so
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10:32<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/default_industries.png is more busy than http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs_industries.png
10:32<andythenorth>you saw the hg branch is ‘snakebite’ btw, not default? o_O
10:32<@Alberth>yes, I saw
10:32<@Alberth>I assumed that was intended :)
10:32<andythenorth>yes
10:32<andythenorth>ah, the default map is interesting
10:33<andythenorth>FIRS ‘consumes’ quite a lot of industries for towns
10:33<andythenorth>shops and so on
10:33<andythenorth>so relatively fewer primary + secondary
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10:33<andythenorth>we talked once about letting the industry grf specify the number of industries to generate, over-riding TTD
10:34<andythenorth>the map in your screenie loses about 23 industries to towns
10:35*andythenorth never thought about the implications of that
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11:24<@Alberth>How can GarryG merge TAI and FIRS? I thought you used all cargoes?
11:29<andythenorth>he’s either getting lucky with overlapping cargos
11:30<andythenorth>or it’s broken and he hasn’t found that yet (he’s still testing)
11:30<andythenorth>TAI is mostly default cargos
11:30<andythenorth>and Full FIRS provides most of those
11:32<@Alberth>:)
11:35<V453000>yapf.rail_doubleslip_penalty = 100 what is this?
11:37<@Alberth> ///< penalty for passing a double slip switch <-- thats the comment
11:37<V453000>slip switch eh? :D
11:37*andythenorth busy bee http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1149773#p1149773
11:38<andythenorth>it really bothers about double slips?
11:38<V453000>and yapf.rail_pbs_cross_penalty = 300 ?
11:38<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch#Double_slip it actually exists :)
11:38<andythenorth>yes :)
11:39<andythenorth>on 2-rail DC electric trains, wiring one is a bit fiddly
11:39<andythenorth>but that’s my long-ago past :P
11:39<V453000>hm
11:39*andythenorth is not train kid anymore
11:39<andythenorth>now I wire up pythons :P
11:39<V453000>so the pahtfinder knows if my tracks are like |X| ?
11:39<V453000>like the typical X at the front of terminus?
11:39<andythenorth>yes
11:40<andythenorth>seems to
11:40<V453000>and the PBS cross is then what? :D same with PBS?
11:40<@Alberth>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/686fd2b78068/src/settings_type.h#l361
11:42<@Alberth>hmm, that's npf
11:42*andythenorth hmms
11:42<andythenorth>eh, I’ll let you finish train things :P
11:43<@Alberth>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/686fd2b78068/src/settings_type.h#l401
11:43<@Alberth>I have no clue about train things, compared to most other people here :)
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11:44*andythenorth does
11:44<andythenorth>but keeps it quiet :P
11:44*andythenorth probably is most-train-thing of anyone here :P
11:44<andythenorth>train-off?
11:44<@Alberth>train-ee :)
11:45<@Alberth>well, you do find very nice train and industry pictures, I very much enjoy those
11:46<andythenorth>so, eh, should farms cluster at all?
11:47<@Alberth>it makes them different from other industries, which I think is good
11:47<@Alberth>truck or tram feeders are nicely feasible with them
11:48<andythenorth>it leaves them unevenly distributed across the map
11:48<andythenorth>maybe I just need to figure out how to get more clusters
11:49<@Alberth>reduce mult/div factor?
11:49<@Alberth>then it takes longer until you reach 1
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11:50<@Alberth>ie add something to 'div'
11:50<@Alberth>make it a big number as a test :)
11:51*andythenorth tests
11:52<andythenorth>faster FIRS compiles => more FIRS development
12:03<andythenorth>ok so 1/4 works better
12:03<andythenorth>on a 512x512 map
12:04<andythenorth>for limited number of tests :P
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12:36<__ln__>http://i.imgur.com/d4p0Orx.jpg
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12:43<andythenorth>ha ha
12:43<andythenorth>2048x2048 maps
12:43*andythenorth will ignore those
12:48<@peter1138>4096x lol
12:50<andythenorth>why would I even care where industries get built on a 2048x2048 map?
12:50<andythenorth>I should stick em all within 128 tiles of the NE map edge :P
12:50<andythenorth>for laughs
12:51<V453000>XD
12:51<V453000>good feature, I like it
12:51<andythenorth>maybe that’s the best placement rule for _all_ map sizes?
12:52<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
12:52<andythenorth>all processors on NE edge
12:52<andythenorth>all primaries on SW
12:52<@Alberth>do it in the top-left 1024, and it works for all maps :p
12:52<@Alberth>I do hope I don't have a huge sea at the SW :p
12:52<andythenorth>would be sad
12:55*andythenorth generates more test maps
12:56<andythenorth>so a dairy that is > 128 tiles from a farm producing milk
12:56<andythenorth>what’s the point? o_O
12:56<andythenorth>there are 5 other dairies between this one and the nearest milk farms
12:56<V453000>XD
12:57<andythenorth>this kind of map gen bugs me
12:57<andythenorth>especially when I get GS orders to provide cargo to it :)
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem
13:04<andythenorth>it’s one of the cases where realism is a valid concern
13:04<andythenorth>makes the map gen seem…daft
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with "realism" as an argument is that people selectively choose the parts of "realism" that suit them and ignore the other parts
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>which stops it from being "realistic" in the first place
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13:18<andythenorth>fails for me
13:19<andythenorth>why would the game locate an industry you’re never going to serve?
13:21<@Alberth>interesting point, but how do you fix that?
13:22<andythenorth>enforce max distance to source industry?
13:23<andythenorth>every source-destination pair would need to do it
13:23<andythenorth>meh
13:24<@Alberth>unless max distance is equal to size of the industry, I don't it would work
13:27<@Alberth>wouldn't it require a form of analysis to see if there are same industries "on the path" ?
13:28<andythenorth>could be done by FIRS at compile time
13:28<andythenorth>but yeah, unpleasant
13:28<@Alberth>hard-code layout :p
13:28<andythenorth>ha
13:29*andythenorth considers it
13:29<@Alberth>it fails on the first splash of water at the wrong place :p
13:30<andythenorth>allow industries to raise land :P
13:30<@Alberth>neat, islands in the sea :)
13:30<andythenorth>I wanted to do nitrate mine that way
13:30<andythenorth>but can’t raise land :P
13:33*andythenorth invents complicated location rules
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13:37<andythenorth>nah
13:38<andythenorth>those industries bug me htough
13:38<andythenorth>though *
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13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're overengineering this
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: whatever placement rule you can come up with, it will fail when the order of industry construction is changed
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot check for industries that will be constructed later
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14:09<andythenorth>yes
14:09<andythenorth>that’s why I’m not going to fix it
14:09<andythenorth>it’s just going to bug me every time I see it :P
14:10<andythenorth>any code I write will likely have unwanted side effects, at minimum it will increase map gen time
14:10<andythenorth>at worst, pathological case, entire chains might go missing :P
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14:29*andythenorth must to motorways
14:29<andythenorth>bye
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>do motorways have to bathe now as well?
14:52<@Alberth>we might never know
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15:36<Wolf01>o/
15:41<Taede>ello
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17:09<andythenorth>motorways complete
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17:29<Wolf01>'night all
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18:02<qwebirc73658>hi all, i'm coming back to openttd after years and I was wondering if there was any work going on with cargodest?
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>check the settings that say "cargo distribution"
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18:58<@peter1138>gute nacht
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>english only!
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20:21<supermop>hiu
20:21<supermop>hi
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---Logclosed Tue May 26 00:00:02 2015