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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-05-29

---Logopened Fri May 29 00:00:06 2015
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05:34<argoneus_>good morning train friends
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05:51-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>what if i'm a train hater and only here for my masochistic tendencies?
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and: "check your privileges" :p
06:01<supermop>i think it is usually singular in that case eddi
06:02<supermop>as a member of a privileged class is assumed to have some amount of 'privilege' in the way he might have some amount of beer
06:03<supermop>we would use privileges, as with beers, when we want to get into the specifics of which types he has
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06:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's not how i would use the word in german...
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>also, i don't see how you could have more of one type of privilege, instead of more different types of privileges
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06:15<Eddi|zuHause>do you measure the privilege of having access to clean drinking water by how far you have to walk to get it?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>that does not make any sense at all.
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06:33<supermop>i think you could
06:34<supermop>i think the privilege of having an employment oprotunity nearby vs serveral nearby are essentially the same privilege but differentiated by degree
06:34<argoneus_>Eddi|zuHause: are you masochistic?
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus_: how is that relevant?
06:35<argoneus_>Eddi|zuHause: you talked about it 30 mins ago
06:35<argoneus_>seems pretty relevant to me
06:35<argoneus_>are you.... avoiding the question?
06:35-!-argoneus_ is now known as argoneus
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus_: do you need a lesson on what the word "if" means?
06:36<argoneus>yes
06:36<argoneus>give me a lesson
06:36<argoneus>master~
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid i'm not quite qualified to give such lessons
06:37<supermop>opping time
06:37<supermop>mopping
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06:58<solatis>ok, i give up. setting up self-regulating networks is too messed up to get right.
07:01<solatis>or at least, it's too difficult to make it efficient combined with ECS. too many barely loaded trains running around.
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07:14<supermop>i find its easiest to just timetable things
07:14<supermop>maybe not the best for ecs
07:15<supermop>but figure out a monthly tonnage that is slightly more capacity than you need, and try to have a train of that size stopping by once per 30 days
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07:16<Eddi|zuHause>might work better if you choose a multiple of 256 ticks
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>as that is the production cycle of the industry
07:29<solatis>i never really tried the timetable thing
07:29<supermop>for a mine or other primary industry i will typically have a two track terminus, and schedule the train to waait there for the number of days between trains in the schedule (usually 30) +1 or 2
07:30<supermop>so the loading train leave once the following train has stopped in the station and cleared the junction
07:30<solatis>that is pretty good actually
07:31<solatis>so you always have one train loading, but also have a continuous flow of primary cargo coming in
07:31<supermop>sure
07:31<supermop>'full load' is too unpredictable
07:32<supermop>better to have a regular flow of cargo even if your trains are sometimes 80-90% full
07:32<solatis>yeah
07:33<supermop>you can also then generally know when a train will be on a certain stretch of track, so you can align other trains to share the line without them delaying each other
07:34<supermop>the problem is timetabling multiple lines together is very very tedious
07:34<Geth>how does the timetables even work?
07:35<supermop>but there are advantages for infrastructure
07:36-!-Geth is now known as Hiddenfunstuff
07:36<supermop>in my current game i have several city stations that see 25+ trains from 5+ different lines with only two tracks, and flat junctions
07:36<supermop>with one train in each direction every 10 days
07:37<supermop>that's about the limit unless your train grf has very fast loading speeds
07:40<supermop>you can also use the timetable to limit speeds
07:41<Hiddenfunstuff>so in what case timetables are useful?
07:41<supermop>so if you have some freight trains that go 120kmh and passenger trains that go 160
07:42<supermop>you can have the passenger trains run at 120 on the shared bits of track so they run smoothly together
07:42<supermop>Hiddenfunstuff: anywhere where you want reguar performance from a network
07:43<supermop>and don't want lots of unnecessary infrastructure
07:43<Hiddenfunstuff>So that might solve problems in my mainline where empty and loaded trains run together.. empty one is faster and constantly stuck between a slower loaded one
07:43<supermop>sure
07:44<Hiddenfunstuff>Except those will be pain to keep up to date as train speeds go up
07:44<supermop>tru
07:44<supermop>ee
07:44<Hiddenfunstuff>Right now starting off a new game so and making sure to future proof my mainlines..
07:45<supermop>'future proof' is easiest if you built extra capacity then never build faster trains later
07:45<supermop>but thats boring
07:46<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah
07:46<supermop>in the game i'm playing now, a sugar beet train run on a line with passenger trains,
07:46<supermop>and the various branches on the line are syncronized in multiples of 90 days
07:47<Hiddenfunstuff>oh?
07:47<supermop>this lets me easily have one sugar train ever 90 days, which is great for now,
07:48<supermop>as it carries 300 tons, and serves a firs arable farm producing 98 tons per month
07:48<supermop>but
07:48<argoneus>I never found timetabling useful for trains
07:48<argoneus>full load kinda spreads them out just fine
07:48<argoneus>it's useful for buses and other things that don't full load though
07:48<Hiddenfunstuff>Yeah.. if you have to wait at the station for full load..
07:48<supermop>if i ever boost the production of the farm, i can't easily increase the sugar train capacity
07:48<Hiddenfunstuff>I usually time the trains so that once theres a train load of stuff in the station, i put out a next train on
07:48<supermop>argoneus: i never use full load for freight
07:49<argoneus>no?
07:49<argoneus>I always use it and make sure there's always atleast 1 train loading something
07:49<supermop>unless it's an isolated branch line
07:49<supermop>i do that with timetables
07:49<argoneus>then again I make 7 length trains
07:49<argoneus>or was it 14
07:50<supermop>as soon as i have more than two trains at a mine, i switch to timetables
07:50<Hiddenfunstuff>I use 16 lenght trains
07:50<Hiddenfunstuff>those usually can fit about 1000 tons or 1,000,000 litres of stuff
07:51<argoneus>the problem with timetables is
07:51<argoneus>that they are annoying to set up
07:51<argoneus>and if you add another train to the fray it's even more gay
07:51<argoneus>at least from my experience
07:51<argoneus>because you need to re-time everything, no?
07:51<supermop>now im deciding whether to give an extra slot on the line to a second sugar train, or try to double it's length
07:51<Hiddenfunstuff>there should be somekind separate window where you make the time tables, then like tick all the trains you want to apply the timetable to
07:54<Hiddenfunstuff>also how is the most efficient way of handling transfer from railway to maglev? Thats always the big pain in the ass to remake all the orders etc
07:54<Hiddenfunstuff>in big networks even more
07:55<supermop>same way JR is doing it in real life
07:56<supermop>build a separate new network
07:56<Hiddenfunstuff>..
07:56<Hiddenfunstuff>So its not even worth to switch over to maglev
07:56<supermop>most line probably don't need to be maglev
07:56<Hiddenfunstuff>but the speeeeed!
07:56<solatis>haha
07:56<solatis>typical "how do i do x? -> you don't want to do that"
07:57<Hiddenfunstuff>Screw that, I'll stick to steam trains in 8115
07:57<solatis>i myself use openttdcoop's unrealistic train set newgrf
07:57<supermop>like the marginal increase in payment to sent coal by high speed probably isn't worth the cost of the tracks
07:57<solatis>it features a 'clean' maglev line
07:57<solatis>as in, one that is actually easy on the eyes
07:57<supermop>passengers are good for maglev though
07:57<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah
07:58<Hiddenfunstuff>your passengers tend to get pissed if they sit in the train for couple years
07:58<supermop>if your coal maglevs can share trackage with other trains then fine do it
07:58<solatis>i myself like to build huge networks and always cheat the money.. for me it's not about generating money, it's about solving the scalability problems
07:58<supermop>but if its a line just for coal why bother
07:58<solatis>so maglev is a requirement :)
07:58<Hiddenfunstuff>solatis thats what i been starting to do these days..
07:58<supermop>for scale build canals
07:58<Hiddenfunstuff>Just try to build more and more complex tracks
07:59<solatis>Hiddenfunstuff: join us @ openttdcoop :)
07:59<Hiddenfunstuff>I am sitting there already
07:59<supermop>canals carry infinite cargo
07:59<solatis>that's cheating
07:59<Hiddenfunstuff>never used canals,
07:59<solatis>as in, it isn't really scaling
07:59<solatis>it's just replacing trains with something that has no scalability limits
07:59<solatis>instead of architecting your lines to scale
08:00<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah
08:00<solatis>to each his own, i guess, but the entire reason i play openttd is to solve those scalability problems
08:00<Hiddenfunstuff>the coop guys are just insane..
08:00<solatis>:)
08:00<solatis>well it's different
08:01<solatis>when i start a new game, i don't let any industries be generated
08:01<solatis>i make huge stations, plan the lines out
08:01<solatis>and only after that do i fund the industries
08:01<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah because the random industries kinda spawn in so wierd places
08:01<solatis>yeah, and when you're using ECS or FIRS you want to have the right industries in strategic locations
08:02<solatis>so you can make your 32-track stations in the right places :)
08:02<Hiddenfunstuff>Indeed
08:02<Hiddenfunstuff>and you can run the trains from north to south with the industry chain
08:02<solatis>i don't do that myself, but yeah, you could
08:03<Hiddenfunstuff>Well i dont even bother with short lines anymore
08:03<Hiddenfunstuff>they are all half of the map distance atleast
08:03<solatis>short lines aren't fun
08:03<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah
08:08<supermop>i don't know, i find timetabling a network so that trains are rarely if ever delayed is more satisfying
08:08<supermop>and requires more planning
08:08<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah..
08:09<supermop>and playing around with ideas of network topology
08:10<supermop>like, how to avoid needing lots of terminal platforms in a city where you have local trains, plus long distance high speed services
08:10<supermop>each game i play around with a different idea to solve that
08:10<Hiddenfunstuff>well that gives some change
08:11<supermop>in this game, the long distance high speed then continues past the city as a local train for 1-2 more stops, so i can lay up at a less busy suburban station
08:11<supermop>and saves me a separate local train for that branch
08:12<supermop>plus passengers in the small town don't need to transfer at the main station to continue further afield
08:13<Hiddenfunstuff>Lol we dont give much a damn about the cities.. sometimes even plowing an lll,rrr mainline through a city
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08:46<supermop>i have run into an odd bit where i now need to run manufacturing supplies in high speed mail cars at 201kmh because the train share an approach to the city with a intercity line
08:47<solatis>is there an easy way to sell ALL my trains?
08:47<solatis>they're all stopped in depots
08:47<solatis>but those are like 50 different depots
08:49<solatis>guess i'll just have to do it manually depot by depot
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08:52<Hiddenfunstuff>yep
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12:52<@Alberth>o/
12:53<andythenorth>o/
12:56<@Alberth>ugh, squirrels array are complicated :(
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13:15<@Alberth>hmmp, someone made a Test class, which wins from my definition :(
13:21<andythenorth>:P
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13:50<andythenorth>Friday cat
13:54*andythenorth wonders about tile height check
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14:04<@Alberth>quak
14:05<frosch123>hoi
14:06<Eddi|zuHause># ein bett im kornfeld
14:11<@Alberth>sure you want to sleep there?
14:12<frosch123>somietimes eddi has just a terrible taste
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>you said "heu". so i had to :p
14:13<frosch123>doesn't matter, you already look terrible by remembering such line
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14:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, you just don't know 90s remakes of 70s songs :p
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i bet you don't know "Sexy Eis" either
14:18<frosch123>i do, but only passive
14:18<frosch123>i wouldn't come up with that myself
14:18<frosch123>it's the active knowledge that makes you look bad :p
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i probably haven't heard either of those songs in over 10 years
14:18<frosch123>anyway, sexy eis is fanta4, right?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's either Stefan Raab or Bürger Lars Dietrich. probably both.
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14:27<andythenorth>so how do I offset to the N tile, to check the N tile height? (using nearby_tile_height)
14:27<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:IndustryTiles#Common_variables
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: use the PARENT to check for industry location?
14:28<andythenorth>ho, common vars
14:28<andythenorth>might work
14:28<andythenorth>I was considering -1 * relative_x
14:28<andythenorth>and -1 * relative_y
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>that probably works as well
14:29<andythenorth>there must be an elegant way to find the height of the highest corner
14:29<andythenorth>nearby_tile_height gets lowest corner
14:30<andythenorth>which is no use
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>nearby_tile_height+slope==SLOPE_FLAT?0:(slope is steep)?2:1
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to exclude steep slopes in most cases
14:31*andythenorth wonders whether auto-foundations would work on steep slopes
14:32*andythenorth checks farms
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>afair they do
14:32<frosch123>yes, they do
14:32<andythenorth>they do
14:32<frosch123>kind of ugly ofc :p
14:33<andythenorth>I’ll allow steep slopes initially
14:33<andythenorth>in this check
14:33<andythenorth>there’s already a separate atomic check to forbid steep slopes
14:33<andythenorth>can add that if the foundations look awful
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>(slope&IS_STEEP_SLOPE!=0)
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>or ==0 and flip 1:2
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>also slope>=IS_STEEP_SLOPE probably works
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 838000/16000000000
14:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.2375e-05
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 838000/16000000000*100
14:59<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.0052375
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15:06<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptgysfcco/90mw09/raw
15:06<andythenorth>works
15:06<andythenorth>won’t remember what that does in 3 months though :P
15:06<frosch123>write a comment :p
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably write -relative_x
15:06<frosch123>or better two
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>instead of -1*blah
15:07<frosch123>also note that it's eddi's fault
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>he already has an uncanny ability of throwing random lines at me and say "you wrote this for me X years ago"
15:08<andythenorth>I think I’d have to blame this one on me
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>and i of course have no memory of that. ever.
15:09<andythenorth>programmers who are good at thinking algorithmically seem to have poor memories
15:09<frosch123>good point. andy: also add a timestamp and irc log link
15:09<andythenorth>in my limited sample :P
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have pretty good memory, but it's very selective
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>i only remember things that don't matter at all.
15:10<andythenorth>so I know some people who can recall specs
15:10<frosch123>like stupid song texts
15:10<andythenorth>but not what they did 1 hour ago
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>who cares. it was probably watching a youtube video.
15:13<andythenorth>what to call this check
15:13<andythenorth>require_highest_point_of_every_tile_to_be_same ?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>magic thing about not quite flat area
15:13<andythenorth>seems a bit long-winded :P
15:13<andythenorth>require_mostly_flat :P
15:14<frosch123>call it "eddi_20150529_2030CETS"
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>is_flat_with_foundations
15:15<frosch123>hmm, CEST :p
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: freudian slip :p
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15:22<Wolf01>hi o/
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15:27<@Alberth>o/
15:30<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGwXKqw_700b_v2.jpg yeah :D
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>that looks very mad-max-y
15:31<Wolf01>it is
15:35<@Alberth>inspiration! Wolf01
15:36<Wolf01>lets make a mad max grf
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Fullerenes enriched with Rubidium produced a room-temperature superconductor"
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16:10<andythenorth>eh, this new check seems better
16:11<andythenorth>winner
16:13<@Alberth>code improves if you write it several times :)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>only if you're a good programmer :p
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16:16<andythenorth>nah
16:16<andythenorth>for bad programmers it’s a random walk
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16:25<andythenorth>hmm
16:25<andythenorth>quarry and clay pit disable all tile location checks
16:25<andythenorth>to permit terraforming
16:26<andythenorth>this has unwanted side effects
16:31<@Alberth>haha, claypit on foundations :p
16:34<+glx>seems legit :)
16:34<andythenorth>actually no :)
16:34<andythenorth>there’s a special tile flag that prevents that
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16:38<andythenorth>shame the tile location check cb can’t return a bitmask for terraforming tile corners
16:38<andythenorth>instead of simply allow / disallow
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16:40<andythenorth>actually, probably too many complex cases :P
16:40<andythenorth>is the tile water?
16:40<andythenorth>and is it water after terraforming?
16:40<andythenorth>etc :P
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>no tile is ever water after terraforming
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16:45<frosch123>objects add many anomalies wrt. that
16:45<frosch123>they could be on water, be completely auto-slopeable, and auto-removable when building something else on them
16:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: and after terraforming + n ticks? :P
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is not a check you can do
16:53<andythenorth>indeed :)
16:53<andythenorth>oh grue and bleen predicates again :P
16:54<andythenorth>anyway, maybe OpenTTD is trying to tell me that the quarry and clay pit are flawed
16:54<andythenorth>hard to build = bad feature
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17:08<Supercheese>Hullo
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18:47<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat May 30 00:00:08 2015