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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-06-02

---Logopened Tue Jun 02 00:00:12 2015
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02:03<andythenorth>Pikka: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Motor_Carriage_Company
02:03<andythenorth>btw
02:16<@planetmaker>moin
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04:23<Wolf01>hi o/
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11:11<luaduck>Forwarding a question from /r/openttd: has the idea of an in-game version updater ever been considered by the team?
11:13<__ln__>what would be the point?
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>like windows nags you to update to windows 10?
11:14<luaduck>for some reason, a number of users this update seemed to query it
11:14<Hiddenfunstuff>For some reason it seems too much effort to go to the website and download new version
11:14<luaduck>I think they just want something like "click here to update to the latest version" ala NewGRFs
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11:14<luaduck>yeah I do agree it seems like major laziness on their part
11:14<Hiddenfunstuff>it doesnt even require unisntallations or anything.. it saves even the settings..
11:14<Hiddenfunstuff>it takes like 3 mins max..
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>luaduck: but this poses all kinds of "run as administrator" problems
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it's worth the hassle
11:15<Hiddenfunstuff>Ah yes windows permission problems, we have dismissed that claim..
11:15<luaduck>one of the guys complaining made a comment on our 1.5.1 post, feel free to comment back http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/387bnv/openttd_151_has_been_released/crt0gk2
11:16<luaduck>I've never seen it as a problem personally but clearly some people feel strongly enough about it to make a post
11:16<luaduck>even though making that post probably took longer than downloading the update
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably a valid question. but i don't see it happening any time soon
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11:18<@Alberth>it'd need support at all our platforms
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that is not a valid reason at all. download of opengfx on first startup isn't supported on all platforms either
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11:20<Taede>also, should it handle updating to non-stable version?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>no.
11:20<@planetmaker>g'evening
11:20<@planetmaker>you'd probably choose update-plans :)
11:20<@planetmaker>however there is https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_Updaters
11:21<@planetmaker>automatically updating probably is not even what most players want.
11:21<Taede>yup
11:21<@planetmaker>they want an update to whatever their favourite server runs
11:21<Taede>they want the version that runs on the server they wish to join
11:21<@planetmaker>and that's solved by all those auto-updaters listed in that webpage
11:22<Hiddenfunstuff>theres no end to some people's laziness
11:23<@planetmaker>Hiddenfunstuff, automatically updating to the server you want to join seems a reasonable request to me
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>laziness drives a large portion of invention and engineering
11:23<@planetmaker>^^
11:24<Hiddenfunstuff>Yep.. sadly to wrong direction sometimes
11:24*Hiddenfunstuff looks at automatic transmission
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm terrible at driving automatic. i always want to step on the clutch...
11:25<Hiddenfunstuff>It might be good on small cars.. heavy vehicles? Absolutely no..
11:25<@planetmaker>automatic transmissions certainly aren't either
11:26<Hiddenfunstuff>Once i nearly killed somebody on the road because of the gearbox downshifting and making the wheels lose all traction
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>there are certainly some terrible solutions to automatic transmission out there
11:27<@planetmaker>technology can fail. However most road accidents are due to human error. So... doesn't sound like technology is the one to be put to question there
11:28<@planetmaker>we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime
11:28<@Alberth>hmm....
11:28<Hiddenfunstuff>That as well but untill the machines can see properly whats infront of itself.. not just lazors but the road condition.. I will never let the car decide what it does
11:29<Hiddenfunstuff>for sake of all drivers, i hope those self driving trucks never make it to public
11:29<@Alberth>You should read more Asimov :)
11:29<@planetmaker>I read it all, Alberth :)
11:29<@planetmaker>well. Most of him
11:30<@planetmaker>Hiddenfunstuff, *you* may choose not to have your car decide for you. *I* will be happy to have that option when I'm tired and just want a nap on the way back from a weekend trip
11:30<@planetmaker>and image recognition isn't that bad already
11:31<Hiddenfunstuff>I avoid new cars anyways.. they're full of electronics that will fail in few cycles of winter here
11:33<Hiddenfunstuff>road salt sludge water mixture does intresting things to your car and all exposed wiring..
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: i'm sure many said that 100 years ago when the first cars came out. or 150 years ago about trains. or about steam ships, or...
11:34<Hiddenfunstuff>indeed.. the first thing people said when first trains came out that was it? 24kph speed is way too dangerous for humans..
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11:35<Hiddenfunstuff>But from my point of view where i spend more time on the road than at home in my life, I rather have control over the vehicle myself and not some computer. Because computers do fail.. its just when. and how many dies when it happens
11:36<Flygon>Hiddenfunstuff is the sort of guy that'd thrive in the world of Mad Max
11:36<Hiddenfunstuff>Probably yeah
11:36<Flygon>:D
11:36<Flygon>But yeah
11:36<Flygon>I fully getcha
11:37<Flygon>I'd like a Telsa... but
11:37<Flygon>Holy fuck that touch screen alone is fucking horrifying
11:37<Flygon>Why can't I have a car with the dashboard and centre console of my '94 Magna?
11:37<Flygon>Is that too much to ask for?...
11:37<Flygon>Just... turn the keys on
11:37<Hiddenfunstuff>considering how i know my way around the machines and that I can hold a hammer and blow torch.. Yeah i probably do fine..
11:37<Flygon>Tune to the radio station
11:37<Flygon>Drive to whereever the fuck I want to go
11:38<Flygon>I shouldn't have to pull over, stare at a touch screen, just to tune a fucking radio
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11:38<Flygon>Then again, I'm the guy that's fucking pissed his current car doesn't have a tape player
11:38<Flygon>...or aux in
11:38<Flygon>Awkward year :U
11:38<Flygon>('07 Falcon)
11:38<Hiddenfunstuff>Yeah.. tesla is crossing the point of.. too fancy, too overengineerd for simple task
11:38<Hiddenfunstuff>I have a tape player but no aux in!
11:38<Flygon>It's annoying... the Tesla would otherwise be perfect
11:38<Flygon>Uh
11:39<Flygon>Tape players ARE aux in
11:39<Flygon>Just get a headphone jack>cassette adaptor
11:39<Hiddenfunstuff>I mean the 3.5mm jack
11:39<Hiddenfunstuff>How does that even work?
11:39<Flygon>Yes, tape players can accept raw 3.5mm input with a physical adaptor
11:39<Hiddenfunstuff>does it record it onto the tape on the fly and then the deck reads it?
11:39<Flygon>The tape's prongs directly connect with the tape player's heads
11:40<Flygon>And dummy tools trick the radio into thinking the tape is playing
11:40<Flygon>Zero conversion happens
11:40<Flygon>It's just a raw physical adaptor
11:40<Hiddenfunstuff>mind blown
11:40<Flygon>Raw analogue audio and tape audio are electronically compatible
11:40<Hiddenfunstuff>Damnit! I can listen to modern music while i'm driving!
11:41<Flygon>:D FLYGON SAVES THE DAY
11:41<Hiddenfunstuff>not some "best of 1989" tapes
11:41<Flygon>But yeah
11:41<frosch123>[17:28] <planetmaker> we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime <- the funny thing is that we probably get no automatic cargo trains :p
11:41<Flygon>I wish my car had a tape player
11:41<Hiddenfunstuff>or ancient mixtapes
11:41<Flygon>I wanna play my 80s and 90s mixtapes
11:41<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: then what do you say about Google's self driving cars? All accidents were either when the vehicle was driven manually, or when the self driving vehicle was hit by another car
11:41<@planetmaker>hm... no, frosch123 ?
11:41<Flygon>frosch123: That's very true
11:41<Flygon>planetmaker: They won't exist in Australia. Too stronger rail lobby.
11:41<frosch123>planetmaker: automatic only makes sense for small vehicles
11:42<frosch123>for big ones, it is not worth the effort
11:42<Hiddenfunstuff>Rubidium.. Would you let a machine control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)
11:42<Flygon>HOWEVER
11:42<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: yes
11:42<Hiddenfunstuff>you are insane
11:42<Flygon>I also forgot Australia DOES already have semi-automatic freight trains
11:42<Flygon>And semi/fully-automatic trucks
11:42<Flygon>But they're only used in the mining industry
11:42<Flygon>And are isolated from the public roads/rail system
11:42<Hiddenfunstuff>yeah far from civil traffic
11:43<@Rubidium>Hiddenfunstuff: really? Do machines get tired? Do machines want to go home? Do machines get heart attacks?
11:43<Hiddenfunstuff>No, but machines get broken
11:43<Flygon>But, yeah. A huge fuss about ATO is being made here in Melbourne...
11:43<Flygon>But
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: so, would you let a HUMAN control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)?
11:43<Flygon>I'm not sure it'll ever eventuate
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: humans make errors
11:43<Hiddenfunstuff>I am driving a 76 ton combination, and last time i checked, i'm human
11:43<Flygon>The Metro lines share tracks with freight trains, V/Line trains, maintainence trains...
11:43<Flygon>Hiddenfunstuff: Is it a War Rig?
11:43<Hiddenfunstuff>when i was driving an 68 ton automatic truck.. that thing nearly killed somebody
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>Hiddenfunstuff: and statistically, humans probably make more errors than machines.
11:44<Hiddenfunstuff>no, just a standard delivery truck
11:44<Flygon>:(
11:44<frosch123>Hiddenfunstuff: Eddi|zuHause: why do you care whether you are run over by a 1 ton or 76 ton vehicle?
11:44<Flygon>frosch123: Conservation of momentum
11:44<Hiddenfunstuff>just saying that 76 ton vehicle takes a shitloads of longer distance to stop..
11:44<Flygon>I'd take the 1 tonne vehicle
11:44<Hiddenfunstuff>and 1.5 ton renault doesnt stop the truck's speed much
11:44<Hiddenfunstuff>Yes, it does do damage but it doesnt stop it
11:45<Flygon>The only way you're gonna stop a 76 tonne vehicle quickly
11:45<Hiddenfunstuff>is to drive it to a ditch or off the road
11:45<Flygon>Is if it's a train/tram, and you apply those electromagnetic anchors to the tracks
11:45<frosch123>Flygon: do you want to hide behind the street light or something?
11:45<Flygon>But even then
11:45<Flygon>If you're going fast enough
11:45<Flygon>You'll probably wreck the train/tram and kill all the occoupants
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen tanks stop nearly instantly
11:45<Flygon>Tanks use treads, not wheels
11:46<Hiddenfunstuff>and tanks do not weight 70 tons
11:46<Hiddenfunstuff>or well.. some do but generally they are lighter
11:46<Flygon>Of course it'll stop. It has near perfect adhesion to the road
11:46<Hiddenfunstuff>around 30-40 tons
11:46<@planetmaker>there's a good reason that things like lane assist, distant assist, emergency breaks are *first* introduced in big trucks: human error is the far biggest cause of accidents involving trucks
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>how does that make a difference?
11:46<Flygon>The more adhesion, the more something stops moving more easily
11:46<Flygon>That's why it's called adhesion
11:46<Hiddenfunstuff>tank treads have more surface contact i belive..
11:46<frosch123>Hiddenfunstuff: the first tank i look up, weights 62 tons, at 72 km/h
11:47<Flygon>(iirc, the electromagnetic brakes on Trams here aren't allowed to be deployed when going over 35km/h here, due to the fact that going any faster, the stop would be so sudden that... well, you'd kill the passengers)
11:47<Flygon>(safer to just smash the car in front, or mince the pedestrian if necessary >_<)
11:48<Hiddenfunstuff>Yep
11:48<Hiddenfunstuff>electrocmagnetics are sticks quite hard..
11:48<Flygon>(of course, it's incredibly unlikely that a pedestrian will be in front of a Tram going 70km/h that can't brake fast enough to THEN apply the electromagnetic brakes)
11:48<@planetmaker>hehe... that reminds me. Once the tram driver announced that passengers should please hold on tight because the primary breaks were broken. First passengers laughed... until the thing needed to start braking
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: when the ICE was tested for dutch railways, their speed was reduced because invoking magnetic brakes at that speed would have dragged all sorts of track equipment with it
11:48<Flygon>(I mean, you'll have enough stopping distance to slow down then brake...)
11:49<Flygon>Eddi: Hahaha, fuck, wow O_o
11:49<Hiddenfunstuff>Electroc magnetic retarder is used in coaches and buses..
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'd ask all passengers to leave the tram and return to depot in that case.
11:50<Hiddenfunstuff>it basically resists the spinning of driveshaft which will slow down the vehicle
11:50<Flygon>Eddi: While that is the safest thing to do
11:50<Flygon>It isn't exactly the most possible thing to do
11:50<Hiddenfunstuff>But ofc it cant be too powerful otherwise you'll end up locking up the driveshaft/twisting it in a screw/locking up the wheels
11:50<Flygon>Keep in mind, Melbourne's Yarra Trams has had such things as Z1's literally getting rained on inside through the cab getting approved for normal service
11:50<Flygon>And other such incredibly serious faults
11:51<Flygon>Because it was still considered drivable
11:51<Flygon>And I'm not getting into how utterly fucked a lot of BUSES are here...
11:51<Hiddenfunstuff>convertible?
11:51<Flygon>The entire principle of public transit here is "Drive it til it's dead"
11:51<Flygon>Hiddenfunstuff: Rust
11:51<Flygon>The rust was so bad, it leaked inside the cab of the Tram
11:51<Hiddenfunstuff>Oooh rust is everywhere
11:52<Flygon>When it rained, that is
11:52<Flygon>So, yeah
11:52<Flygon>The Z's being nigh invulnerable's becoming a bit of an issue
11:52<Flygon>Thank fuck they're being retired soon
11:52<Flygon>They're the coolest looking Trams on the network
11:52<Flygon>And they've served us fucking well
11:52<Flygon>They're around 40 years old by this point
11:52<Hiddenfunstuff>They dont use roadsalt in there do they
11:52<Flygon>Doesn't snow
11:52<Hiddenfunstuff>oh wait.. melbourge.. no snow
11:52<Flygon>We don't use roadsalt
11:53<Hiddenfunstuff>roadsalt when mixed into snow/water.. thats like acid
11:53<Flygon>That's only for out in Melbourne's outer North-East and the alps
11:53<Hiddenfunstuff>Eats through anything
11:53<Flygon>The Trams were getting eaten through out of sheer AGE
11:53<Flygon>And lack of maintainence thanks to cost cutting
11:53<Flygon>Yarra Trams really wanted to get rid of the Z's
11:53<Flygon>And letting them rot unceromoniously was the only possible way to do so
11:54<Flygon>As sad as it is (esp. since they're so awesome), it's probably for the best
11:54<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Z1-class-tram.96_swanston_collins.jpg
11:54<Flygon>(old MTA livery)
11:54<Hiddenfunstuff>Oooh
11:54<Hiddenfunstuff>Ouch
11:55<Flygon>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Z3_139_(Melbourne_tram)_in_Swanston_St,_December_2013.JPG Modern livery
11:55<Hiddenfunstuff>did they just paint over the rust?
11:55<Flygon>You can't paint over a gaping hole
11:55<Hiddenfunstuff>oh yes you can
11:56<Hiddenfunstuff>just slap some scrap metal over it
11:56<Hiddenfunstuff>ofc without grinding the rust under it first
11:56<Flygon>The Z1s (the oldest, unsurprisingly) that did get those gaping holes did get retired
11:56<Hiddenfunstuff>so the rust will eat the new piece of scrap metal withn months
11:56<Flygon>When the fact that they had giant holes in them became obvious
11:56<Flygon>Hiddenfunstuff, again
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11:56<Flygon>Yarra Trams were looking for an excuse to forcibly retire them
11:56<Flygon>To get new Trams
11:56<Flygon>They don't want to fix them up cheap
11:56<Flygon>That being said
11:57<Flygon>The Z3 Trams (there's three revisions. And Z3 and Z2 Trams are parts compatible with the B and A-Class Trams, meaning they'll last far longer. Tho, most Z2 are retired by now too) will last at least another decade and a half
11:58<Flygon>http://www.thecollectormm.com.au/private/ZclassOnSwanston.jpg THEY'RE SO PHOTOGENIC
11:58<@Alberth>yep, nicely colourful :)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>how is that a reason for keeping them?
11:59<Flygon>https://c3.staticflickr.com/7/6006/6014116604_62a8a2d46e_b.jpg You'll never guess what happened here
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>probably some sort of celebration
11:59<Flygon>https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bqizhh2CAAA6pnc.jpg Crappy VHS tape image too
12:00<Flygon>Celebration?...
12:00<Flygon>Hehe.... hehehe...
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>when they opened a new tram line over here, they put all sorts of old equipment on it on the first day
12:00<Hiddenfunstuff>..
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>of course those were properly maintained museum vehicles
12:00<Flygon>http://tdu.to/a28113/1990%20blockade%20Bourke%20Street%20Mall.jpg
12:00<Flygon>This image will explain everything
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>ah. that's something different then ;)
12:01<Flygon>Eddi: They're kept because Yarra Trams are forced to. They gotta run EVERYTHING possible to keep up with demand
12:01<Flygon>But, yeah
12:01<Flygon>Huge shitstorm in 1990 over Conductors
12:01<Flygon>Sadly, the last did get retired by 1999 :(
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>tram conductors were long gone over here by that time
12:03<Flygon>Yeah =/
12:03<Flygon>It's annoying...
12:03<Flygon>Everyone here wants them back
12:03<Hiddenfunstuff>I should get back to work.. my break is over
12:03<Flygon>Aye
12:03<Flygon>I should sleep
12:03<Flygon>2AM
12:03<Flygon>Night!
12:03<Hiddenfunstuff>evening
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12:04<Flygon>Hope I haven't bothered you guys with my Aussiefoaming x3
12:04<Flygon>I know Australia aint interesting :3
12:04<Flygon>And, like
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>they were trying to get rid of train conductors here, but they reversed that decision
12:04<Flygon>You're all European :P
12:04<Hiddenfunstuff>not at all
12:04<Hiddenfunstuff>Hhe
12:04<Hiddenfunstuff>sometimes a nice change to talk to people..
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>in local trains that is
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12:54<andythenorth>o/
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12:57<@Alberth>hi hi
13:00<@planetmaker>\o
13:01<andythenorth>is cat
13:02<V453000>nope
13:03<andythenorth>is coffee?
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13:20<andythenorth>bbl
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15:28<argoneus>are there any major features planned in the near future?
15:29<argoneus>or is 1.5 bugfixing
15:30<frosch123>it's the same as every year
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>same procedure as last year, miss sophie?
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15:36<andythenorth>increased industry IDs
15:36<andythenorth>major feature
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16:05<andythenorth_>eh
16:05<andythenorth_>industry sound effects
16:05<andythenorth_>like?
16:05<andythenorth_>no like?
16:06*Eddi|zuHause has horrible memories of PBI reusing the train crash sound for quarries
16:07<Pukka>boom!
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>very traumatizing
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16:08<andythenorth>boom
16:08*andythenorth considers sounds for meat packer
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16:08<andythenorth>also sheep farm
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>mäh!
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16:11<andythenorth>http://www.freesfx.co.uk/rx2/mp3s/2/3222_1329145663.mp3
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>you want sounds that blend in with the environment and don't stand out very much
16:14<andythenorth>like the default sawmill
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>also, you changed colour.
16:14<andythenorth>ideally all the sounds would be as nice as the default sawmill
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's driving me mad.
16:15<andythenorth>I have a colour?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>my client assings a colour to everyone
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>but you joined with an alternate nick, which gets a different colour than your usual nick
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>and then that colour sticks with you through renames
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>until either you or me /hop
16:17<andythenorth>there’s a lot of hopping today
16:17<andythenorth>somewhat involuntary
16:17<andythenorth>hmm
16:17<andythenorth>other people have strange irc
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17:36<Wolf01>'night
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20:12<supermop>yo
20:22<Pokka>yoyo
20:22<supermop>hope it's warm up there
20:23<Pokka>it is not
20:23-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
20:24<supermop>i had to buy sweatpants yesterday
20:24<supermop>i am sure it's colder in this house than outside during the day
20:29<supermop>wish i was in brisbane
20:29<supermop>Pikka: going to add HART train to NARs? with unrefittable passengers+surfboard capacity?
20:37<supermop>I guess Honolulu is really stretching the idea of 'north america' though, as its not even near the continental plate
20:37<Pikka>mmhm :)
20:38<supermop>maybe a polynesian rail set with that and absolutely nothing else
20:39<supermop>odd that they are launching with the surfboard racks as it will not get to waikiki, at least not before the 2030s
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21:02<Eddi|zuHause>so they have surfboard transport the way normal countries would have bike transport?
21:11<Sylf>:o wave rider trains
21:11<Sylf>sounds more like a amusement ride than commuter system
21:20<supermop>yeah
21:20<supermop>some people in honolulu have surfboard racks on their bikes
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21:21<supermop>eventually when the train gets to waikiki and beyond, people can take it to surf beaches
21:22<supermop>but for now it only helps those who travel from airport to a hotel in the city but bring their own board
21:23<supermop>locals will still be compelled to drive, and visitors will need to rent a car or take a hotel shuttle to get boards to the beach
21:23<supermop>most visitors rent boards at the beach though
21:24<supermop>and don't stay in the areas the train serves
21:24<supermop>for now it really only serves a commuter corridor so the board racks seem premature
21:26<supermop>i guess they are more for brand image
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22:23<supermop>hmm i don't really have a use for acela in my network
22:33-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
22:39<supermop>i guess i should build a separate hsr network
22:59<Flygon>supermop: Since we're going on that tangent
22:59<Flygon>2CC Set with V/Line VLocities should also have a Surfboard capacity
23:00<supermop>haven't used 2cc set in a long time actually
23:21<supermop>not sure what to work on now
23:22<supermop>maybe not best use of time to model more modular buildings until it seems more likely they will be coded
23:22<supermop>same with stations
23:57<Flygon>On one hand, having Flinders Street Station in GRF form would be cool
23:57<Flygon>On the other hand
23:57<Flygon>If we were to have a map of Melbourne facing North
23:57<Flygon>You'd never be able to see the main focus point of the station
23:58<Flygon>Because most of the building's features face North...
---Logclosed Wed Jun 03 00:00:13 2015