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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-06-12

---Logopened Fri Jun 12 00:00:26 2015
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02:42<andythenorth>oh cargodist :P
02:42<andythenorth>how you taunt me
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03:12<andythenorth>so cdist and distributing from secondary industries
03:12<andythenorth>seems the best way is to build a station per destination
03:13<andythenorth>and let OpenTTD handle the cargo allocation according to station rating
03:31<peter1138>Bah, audio CD with cracks in it, has read errors. NOT at the cracks...
03:34<andythenorth>‘unlike vinyl, CDs are virtually indestructible, and will never skip’
03:35<peter1138>It plays in a regular player.
03:35<peter1138>But when ripping them I prefer to get them as correct as possible.
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03:52<supermop>hmm should i build a deltic or 47 for this mail train
03:52<supermop>1987 so both seem a bit old
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05:48<andythenorth>has anyone got a working daylength patch?
05:53<peter1138>Days are already longer. Wait til December.
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06:08<Eddi|zuHause>warning: untested :p
06:09<andythenorth>well played
06:09*andythenorth ponders a 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x intro date multiplier for Iron Horse
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06:53<andythenorth>lo Pikka bob
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06:53<andythenorth>what industries do you Australian types need?
06:54<jottyfan>hi again, about subsidy in busybee- game script
06:54<jottyfan>I've a working solution but could not translate all the language files except english and german
06:55<jottyfan>where can I put my git repo with all the content so that the developer of busybee can include it if accepted?
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07:00<Pikka>Australians need... um...
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to translate to every language known to man...
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>i assume there's a devzone entry for busy bee, where you can open a ticket
07:01<jottyfan>got that page
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07:02<jottyfan>do you think I can just clone this repo, make a branch, add my changes and push it?
07:02<jottyfan>or is this too rude?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>you won't be able to push
07:05<jottyfan>am I not? ouch...
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>make a patch, and attach it to a ticket
07:05<@planetmaker>jottyfan, you need to apply for a project and give us your public key.
07:06<@planetmaker>I'm pretty sure also that busy bee repo is a mercurial one
07:06<@planetmaker>as translation services work exclusively with mercurial
07:07<jottyfan>this turns out to become complex
07:07<@planetmaker>if you want to branch / fork:[subject]=Applying%20for%20project:%20%3Cname%20here%3E&issue[priority_id]=7&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=4&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=3&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=115&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=254&issue[description]=Hello,%20I%20would%20like%20to%20request%20a%20project%20on%20your%20DevZone,%20my%20work%20is%20or%20will%20be%20GPL%20and%
07:07<@planetmaker> <-- link is there :D
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>could use an url shortener :p
07:07<@planetmaker>yeah :P
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>iirc there were shortened urls for some of these things
07:08<Flygon>Pikka: Wool
07:08<Flygon>Wheat, in particular
07:08<@planetmaker>I created them somewhen... and forgot :D
07:08<jottyfan>ok, I'll have a look, thanks
07:09<@planetmaker>it's only a rewrite rule, thus using the browser to c&p didn't work. But here's the short one:
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: none of these are industries
07:10<Flygon>True. They're Cargo
07:10<jottyfan>so I have to register before I throw out a new branch?
07:11<@Alberth>jottyfan: do you have a patch?
07:11<Flygon>Are we allowed to designate Collingwood's Apartment Towers as an Industry that generates Bogans, Refugees, and Asians?
07:11<@planetmaker>jottyfan, a page which allows pushing anything without registration probably still needs invention. Or is a malware site
07:11*Flygon runs away. VERY quickly.
07:11<@planetmaker>or a paste service
07:12<peter1138>You might get a maintainer to pull from you without registration
07:14<@planetmaker>peter1138, though that would be probably similar hassle as walk him through registration and providing a key to push himself :)
07:14<jottyfan>so if I put the tar with the new version to my homepage, planetmaker, you could load it, check it and make it available to the community?
07:15<@planetmaker>I'm site admin at devzone, but not one of the busy-bee maintainers
07:15<@Alberth>planetmaker: push?
07:15<@planetmaker>Alberth, to his own repo. Not yours :)
07:15<@planetmaker>I would not dare allow that w/o your permission
07:16<@Alberth>I am confused how that helps tbh
07:17<@Alberth>apparently there is a git repo already
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07:17<@planetmaker>jottyfan, in order to understand what you provide: is it a change to busybee which you want to see implemented there? Is it your own version of busy bee which you want to give to players? Start a fork of busy bee to continue development?
07:17<jottyfan>@Alberth: I've extended the busy bee game script to recieve rewards after delivering cargo to come closer to subsidies
07:18<jottyfan>I wonder if it should be a fork or extend busy bee - let the decision up to the developers
07:18<jottyfan>it's just a very small extension
07:18<@Alberth>do you have a patch?
07:19<jottyfan>I don't want anything for it, just publish it so that others may use it too
07:19<jottyfan>I could make a patch
07:19<jottyfan>of all the files I changed
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07:19<@planetmaker>I can give you a repo at the DevZone, no problem. Maintaining that repo... not something I fancy (i.e. won't happen). Publishing to players: best do yourself via bananas
07:20<@planetmaker>DevZone can provide git repos, but they're not supported in any manner for translations or bundling
07:20<@planetmaker>nor build services
07:20<jottyfan>and if I just put it to my homepage, give you the link and you can do whatever you want with it?
07:22<@Alberth>if you publish anything, please give it a different name first
07:22<andythenorth>jottyfan: fork
07:22<andythenorth>Busy Bee is explicitly no reward ;)
07:22<@planetmaker>if you ask me: well, sure, you can do that. I then recommend to share that link in the appropriate forum thread. And be so kind towards the original maintainer of busy-bee (aka Alberth) to rename it thus :) )
07:22<andythenorth>forks are invited
07:22<andythenorth>also spoons
07:23<andythenorth>reward-bee :P
07:23<andythenorth>cash-rewards :P
07:23<@Alberth>jottyfan: if you want BB-devs (me & andy) to have a look, please provide a patch. Otherwise, you can fork, and publish yourself
07:24<jottyfan>ok, so I create a patch of all the files I changed and publish it to my homepage?
07:24<jottyfan>doing this under linux by patch file.original file.changed or differently?
07:24<@Alberth>use ?
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07:25<jottyfan>for the patches? I could...
07:25<@planetmaker>jottyfan, didn't you use git for your development? then use its diff command
07:25<jottyfan>git diff? I can do also
07:25<@Alberth>that's why you want to have a VCS :)
07:27<@Alberth>but otherwise, you need an original and a change directory with everything in it (and nothing else), and run a diff -u --recursive orig_dir new_dir
07:27<@Alberth>git diff is an order of magnitude simpler though
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07:28<jottyfan>git diff original-repo-ID
07:29<jottyfan>but I've found the original first... :-D
07:29<@Alberth>hopefully you tagged the branch :)
07:29<jottyfan>git log shows the changes
07:29<jottyfan>but what's the first git id before I did any change
07:29<@Alberth>yeah, but you have to search manually :)
07:30<@Alberth>the one at the bottom of git log :p
07:30<jottyfan>no, seems not to be the right one
07:30<@Alberth>git hashes are just random, no pattern in them
07:30<jottyfan>I must have made some mistakes using git
07:31<@planetmaker>well, or you didn't start with an unmodified version :)
07:31<jottyfan>so again: get the original sources, copy my changes into them and commit and make git diff afterwards?
07:31<@planetmaker>after all, the original cannot have been git
07:31<@planetmaker>simply get a checkout of the original source and then use the command alberth gave to compare the two dirs
07:32<@Alberth>use an export or archive thingie to prevent .git stuff
07:32<@Alberth>unless you want a patch with all the .git files :p
07:32<jottyfan>I used the busy bee tar file inside .openttd
07:32<jottyfan>the original one
07:33<jottyfan>then made a git repo out of it
07:33<jottyfan>changed the files
07:33<jottyfan>and committed
07:33<@Alberth>that's not entirely source, but fair enough
07:33<jottyfan>this diff is the right one?
07:34<@planetmaker>you can better judge that: is it the entirety of thins you changed?
07:35<jottyfan>or better wget as source?
07:35<jottyfan>and then make it git repo
07:35<jottyfan>add my changes and commit
07:35<jottyfan>and then git diff?
07:35<@Alberth>if you started with the tar, do that again
07:36<@Alberth>unpack the tar, and export your copy to a new directory to get rid of the .git files etc
07:37<@Alberth>then you can run a diff between both directories
07:38<@Alberth>diff --recursive --brief unpacked_dir git_copy gives a list of changed files, so you can see whether the expected files are there
07:39<@Alberth>that diff output should only contain files that you want in the patch
07:39<@Alberth>the patch itself is created with diff -u --recursive unpacked_dir git_copy > mypatchfile.patch
07:40<@Alberth>and you can open that mypatchfile.patch to see if it is what you expect
07:40<jottyfan>ok, it'll take a bit of time
07:40<@Alberth>when happy, post that patch at a paste service
07:41<@Alberth>yeah, a git branch tag is really useful :)
07:41<@Alberth>something for the next time :)
07:45<jottyfan>the diff is in german - is this a problem for you?
07:47<@Alberth>eventually, yes, project should have a single language, imho
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07:47<@Alberth>but code should work, shouldn't it?
07:48<jottyfan>diff -u --recursive unpacked_dir git_copy > mypatchfile.patch
07:48<jottyfan>gives only the name of files that changed, not the changes itself
07:48<@Alberth>nice :p
07:48<jottyfan>maybe I'd better go the git way?
07:48<@Alberth>which diff ?
07:49<@Alberth>perhaps you have an alias with --brief in it?
07:49<jottyfan>that's the folders: BusyBee-RC2M (the original one) and BusyBeeSubsidy (the changed one)
07:50<@Alberth>you can try using the executable directly
07:50<jottyfan>this is the command: diff -u --recursive BusyBee-RC2M BusyBeeSubsidy > BusyBeeSubsidy.patch
07:50<jottyfan>the result is just the files that changed, not the content of the files
07:51<peter1138>git diff <branch>
07:51<@Alberth>you only get changes like
07:51<@Alberth>peter1138: he doesn't have an original branch tag
07:51<peter1138>git diff master
07:52<peter1138>If you were working in master... shame on you.
07:52<jottyfan>no, I did a branch but merged back to master...
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07:53<andythenorth>if you have the changes, and you have Busy Bee, this is trivial no?
07:53*andythenorth is missing something
07:54<@Alberth>you can try /usr/bin/diff instead of just 'diff', ie the absolute path to the 'diff' program
07:54<jottyfan>I do it the git way
07:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: you're missing 'experience' :p
07:55<jottyfan>this is much better
07:55<jottyfan>ok, so I put the diff (thats 7688 bytes long) to?
07:56<@Alberth> is fine
07:56<@Alberth>or some other paste service
07:57<jottyfan>ok, here's the link (available for 30 minutes):
07:58<jottyfan>hope that's good enough for you to have a look at it...
07:59<@Alberth>only one problem, you're not preserving old news if rewards are disabled
08:00<@Alberth>oh, you can't even disable it
08:00<jottyfan>I didn't check every option
08:00<jottyfan>my fault
08:01<@Alberth>I would recommend you add value 0 as well, and in that case revert to original behavior and news
08:01<@Alberth>and messages
08:01<jottyfan>just tried it and it worked
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08:01<@Alberth>it can't work, you changed the messages
08:02<@Alberth>the " and earned {STRING}{CURRENCY_LONG}" part should be fully optional
08:02<jottyfan>but I could offer if reward > 0 GSText(label1) else GSText(label2)
08:02<@Alberth>yep, would be fine
08:02<jottyfan>ok, I can do
08:02<@Alberth>also for the goals of course
08:02<jottyfan>but I can just provide the german and english version
08:04<@Alberth>oh, that's fine
08:04<@Alberth>I only provide the english version normally, the other languages are handled by translators
08:05<jottyfan>but what happens if I add a new language key that doesn't exist in others translations?
08:05<jottyfan>shouldn't the game script crash?
08:05<@Alberth>it reverts to the base language, ie english
08:06<@Alberth>and the translator is notified of missing translations
08:06<jottyfan>so english is must have, all other languages are nice to have?
08:07<jottyfan>when I'm ready, I'll come back to irc and tell about
08:07<@Alberth>{GOLD} in STR_COMPANY_GOAL looks wrong
08:07<jottyfan>it'll take a while
08:07<jottyfan>what's wrong about that?
08:07<@Alberth>the 'for' tex colour should be the same as the leading text
08:08<jottyfan>default is ORANGE?
08:08<@Alberth>{GOLD}{CARGO_LONG} <-- that changes the colour of the cargo amount, relative to the leading text
08:08<@Alberth>don't know exactly, source should tell that, and otherwise, just try :)
08:09<jottyfan>seems to be orange
08:09<@Alberth>ok :)
08:09<jottyfan>it's not in the english.txt
08:10<jottyfan>what's default color
08:10<jottyfan>so how to name the new language keys?
08:10<@Alberth>it's not in the .nut file?
08:10<jottyfan>is it betetr to include the keys in others or clone the keys?
08:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: do you have any problem with adding optional reward money to BB ?
08:12<@Alberth>probably better make a new string, so translators have freedom to re-arrange wording
08:12<jottyfan>so STR_COMPANY_GOAL cloned to STR_COMPANY_GOAL_SUBSIDY ?
08:12<jottyfan>STR_SUBSIDY_REWARD to be included in STR_COMPANY_GOAL
08:12<@Alberth>or _REWARD
08:13<jottyfan>it's 3 language keys I changed, so I do 3 clones
08:13<@Alberth>now you lost me
08:13<jottyfan>I could also do what cargo_long does
08:14<@Alberth>no idea what you mean, just add 3 new strings
08:14<jottyfan>create STR_GOAL_REWARD as for {WHITE}{STRING}{CURRENCY_LONG} and include that in STR_COMPANY as {STRING}
08:14<@Alberth>not good
08:15<jottyfan>but it's done that way several times
08:15<@Alberth>translators want to move stuff around in the sentence to fit their language
08:15<@Alberth>and by making sub-strings, you make that very difficult
08:15<jottyfan>ok, so better real clones
08:15<jottyfan>and have some duplicates in translation
08:16<@Alberth>well, they get 'related strings', it's copy/paste from the web page, mostly :)
08:16<jottyfan>so just to be sure:
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08:17<jottyfan>that way?
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08:17<@Alberth>yes, but drop "GOAL_ in the first one?
08:17<@Alberth>you want to align all :
08:18<jottyfan>it still fits
08:18<jottyfan>even with STR_COMPANY_GOAL_REWARD_NEWS
08:18<@Alberth>ok, no problem then
08:18<jottyfan>need no spaces before :
08:18<@Alberth>no, afaik
08:19<jottyfan>doesn't work for STR_COMPANY_GOAL_WON_NEWS
08:19<jottyfan>so either I add more spaces to all lines
08:19<jottyfan>or (better?) I shorten REWARD by R?
08:20<@Alberth>better, add REWARD, and I'll fix the alignment
08:20<jottyfan>I can do also
08:20<jottyfan>it's just spaces, isn't it?
08:20<@Alberth>alignment fixes make a long patch
08:20<@Alberth>it's harder to see what has changed
08:21<jottyfan>I know
08:21<@Alberth>so it 's easier to make a 2nd commit with only whitespace fixes
08:21<jottyfan>so I just break the length on that one line
08:23<andythenorth>Alberth: I am not big on rewards, but if you want to
08:23<andythenorth>I like the idea of no reward
08:24<jottyfan>I like rewards because of the subsidy problem for the cargodist goods
08:24<@Alberth>I want to preserve not having a reward
08:24<jottyfan>so I can have a kind of subsidy for cargodist goods too
08:24<jottyfan>default be no subsidy factor?
08:25<@Alberth>so only extending
08:25<@Alberth>jottyfan: yes please
08:26<@Alberth>jottyfan: BB is not fixing that problem, it's just ignoring it
08:26<@Alberth>a better solution may be to disable cdist for such cargoes
08:26<jottyfan>but It feels like fidex
08:26<jottyfan>no, i like cargodist very much
08:26<jottyfan>but I also like subsidies
08:27<jottyfan>can I use c code in nut files?
08:27<jottyfan>such as
08:28<jottyfan>x < 0 ? do sth. : do sth. different?
08:28<@Alberth>the language is 'squirrel', version 2, to be precise
08:28<jottyfan>instead of: if (x < 0) { do sth. } else { do sth.}
08:29<@Alberth> not highly readable I am afraid
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08:29<@Alberth> it does seem to have ?:
08:31<jottyfan>so for "local goal_text = ..." I need to replace it by if (...) { local goal_text = ... } else { local goal_text = ... }"?
08:31<jottyfan>or do I have do declare goal_text in front of the if clause?
08:32<jottyfan>seems that way...
08:32<@Alberth>you don't know ?: ??
08:32<jottyfan>I wonder
08:33<@Alberth>me too, you ask about ?:, then conclude it has to be replaced by an if statement :)
08:34<jottyfan>that way?
08:34<jottyfan>If I'd do it in java, I'd prefer local goal_text = reward > 0 ? GSText... : GSText...
08:34<jottyfan>ist much smaller
08:35<@Alberth>I prefer the snippet, except for the string name that should be changed
08:36<jottyfan>what string name?
08:36<@Alberth>and I'd write the call at one line :)
08:36<@Alberth>you use GSText.STR_COMPANY_GOAL twice, with a different number of parameters
08:36<jottyfan>you're right
08:36<jottyfan>I'll fix that
08:37<jottyfan>what do you mean with "I'd write the call at one line"
08:38<@Alberth>merge lines 3 & 4, and 6 & 7
08:39<jottyfan>how about that?
08:40<jottyfan>the line breaks come from original sources
08:40<@Alberth>lines 3 and 5 are supposed to start there?
08:40<jottyfan>I corrected the spaces
08:41<@Alberth>original sources have very little meaning, imho
08:41<jottyfan>that way?
08:42<jottyfan>or better that way:
08:42<@Alberth>I'd add an empty line between the assignments, or put each call at one line vertically aligning the arguments
08:42<@Alberth>the primary point is readabilty
08:43<@Alberth>you want to see how things change in one look
08:43<@Alberth>now it's one big blob of text
08:43<jottyfan>so what shoud I do exactly?
08:44<@Alberth>make it as good as possible
08:45<jottyfan>that's why I ask here in irc so much
08:45<jottyfan>like a stupid script kiddie
08:46<@Alberth> some options
08:47<@Alberth>play with alignment, try a few alternatives, until you find one that looks ok
08:48<@Alberth>the trick is not to read, just glance at it, and check whether it shows changes visually
08:48<jottyfan>but this makes the diff more complex
08:49<@Alberth>yes, that's another trade-off :)
08:49<@Alberth>but eventually, code layout quality wins
08:49<jottyfan>ok, I'd give you what I have until now because of an upcoming meeting
08:49<@Alberth>as that stays
08:50<jottyfan>just a minute, after that, I'm busy
08:50<@Alberth>k, bye :)
08:50<@Alberth>ha, one more minute BB coding :p
08:51<@Alberth>jottyfan: no need to give partial stuff, I'll wait
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08:52<jottyfan>here it is
08:52<jottyfan>hope this can make it to busybee
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14:33<andythenorth>so how about extending newgrf spec with torque curve? o_O
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>what does that do?
14:33<andythenorth>massively over-realistic vehicle physics
14:34<andythenorth>primarily it reflects available gear ratios
14:34<andythenorth>and / or engine characteristics
14:34<@Rubidium>then lets start with modeling hunting oscillations and wear and tear of tracks
14:34<andythenorth>and the tyre inflation of RVs
14:34<andythenorth>also road surface
14:35<@Alberth>bit silly without road types
14:36*andythenorth was looking at the horsepower of Road Hog
14:36<andythenorth>it’s getting quite divorced from reality :)
14:41<@Alberth>nah, reality is buggy :)
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14:48<andythenorth>who is andythen_ ?
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14:49<@Alberth>problem solved :)
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>but really, who is andy, then?
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14:56<andythenorth>important question
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15:08<andythenorth>eh, so multiple stations does work much better with cargodist at secondary industry
15:08<andythenorth>interesting change of strategy :P
15:09<andythenorth>usually the best approach is a single large station for pickup
15:11<@Alberth>aren't just 2 or 3 stations getting anything?
15:11<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps with cdist not
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15:23<andythenorth>with cdist, distributing outbound cargo from a secondary industry is pretty much broken for a single station case
15:24<andythenorth>nearly all cargo is assigned to one route, leaving thousands of tons awaiting pickup, and all other routes waiting for cargo
15:24<andythenorth>which also causes station blocking :P
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15:27<@Alberth>ah, yes, you need waypoints to sort trains
15:27<@Alberth>and buffer storage of early trains
15:28<andythenorth>don’t think that affects cdist much though :)
15:28<@Alberth>so using stations as waypoints basically?
15:28<@Alberth>sounds easier :)
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16:07<peter1138>FSX at 4 fps is not fun :(
16:16<_dp_>is there some good way of storing some extra date in ttd savegame that doesn't prevent it from being loaded by unmodified game?
16:17<+glx>yes in a new chunk
16:18<+glx>but it will be discarded by unmodified game
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16:21<_dp_>hm, to me it looks like any unexpected chunks cause an error
16:21<_dp_>ch = SlFindChunkHandler(id);
16:21<_dp_> if (ch == NULL) SlErrorCorrupt("Unknown chunk type");
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: moar power!!
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: if you dig in the history, you might find stuff where releases got added data without changing the savegame version. not sure if that helps your cause
16:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but that does not work in both ways :)
16:26<frosch123>_dp_: anyway, i guess the best method is to use gamescript data
16:27<frosch123>you can likely just store whatever there
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16:27<frosch123>esp. in the language files of the gamescript
16:28<frosch123>maybe you can even store a game script translation for a "new" translation
16:28<minexew>hey, how do i bring attention to an issue in the bugtracker?
16:28<minexew>i submitted a patch but nobody seems to have noticed :D
16:28<_dp_>frosch123, hm, interesting idea, I'll try it, thanks
16:29<frosch123>minexew: what makes you think noone noticed?
16:29<_dp_>also was thinking of utilizing persistent storages
16:30<minexew>frosch123: the fact that i got no reply
16:31<frosch123>ah, it's a windows patch
16:31<frosch123>well, yeah, likely noone noticed
16:33<frosch123>i am not sure whether we had an active windows dev this year
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16:35<minexew>so there's no point in submitting windows-specific patches?
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>EU IV, which i played a lot recently, allows me to choose between "Fullscreen", "Windowed" and "Windowed Fullscreen", where the latter is basically what is described in that issue. don't know if that is a valid path for this game
16:36<minexew>yeah, i didn't want to mess with the UI, so i made it implicit for the native resolution
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, that sounds reasonable, but i'm not one that can help you getting this along...
16:37<frosch123>it's the same on linux :) fullscreen is also just full-desktop without borders
16:37<frosch123>well, at least on my machine
16:38<minexew>even if you use a low-resolution fullscreen mode?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have notable differences in behaviour between "fullscreen" and "windowed fullscreen", especially regarding alt+tab
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>with the same resolution as native
16:38<frosch123>minexew: i don't think switching video modes is allowed for the average application
16:39<minexew>frosch123:who does the scaling then?
16:39<frosch123>so, you may say, there is only borderless maximised, no fullscreen :p
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>namely, "fullscreen" will un-fullscreen to a window, and then minimize, upon alt+tab, whereas "windowed fullscreen" will stay fullscreenized in the background (making the switch less interruptive and faster)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>whereas "windowed fullscreen" fails to actually set the fullscreen flag in the window manager, which i have to do manually on each start
16:40<minexew>Eddi|zuHause:that's exactly why this is an issue in the first place :) alt-tab behavior for "fullscreen" is awful
16:42<minexew>i guess i'll just roll my own fork then
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>minexew: sure. but you now need people to test this on all sorts of windows versions out there
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>and a dev to do a code review
16:43*andythenorth -> bed
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16:45<frosch123>minexew: well, at some point the osx port turned so bad, that patches got committed unreviewer, assuming that they couldn't possibly make it worse :)
16:45<frosch123>so, maybe the same will happen to the windows port
16:45<minexew>i have poor experience with the os x port
16:45<minexew>periodic spikes of CPU usage
16:46<minexew>but that's been 1-2 years ago
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16:46<minexew>though i'm surprised there are no active windows devs
16:47<frosch123>windows was always the minority here
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16:48<frosch123>currently there are hardly 4 active linux devs
16:48<minexew>using github for collaboration could help ;)
16:50<minexew>the barriers to entry seem needlessly high here
16:50<@Rubidium>how are the barriers for github any less, when the main problem is someone doing a proper review?
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16:52<minexew>well for one, if more people can see your project, more people are likely to step up to do reviews
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>how would switching to github expose the project to more people than it already is?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think exposure is the problem at all...
16:53<minexew>github has a lot of social bullshit that helps with this
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's like you going to the greek government and tell them "how about you go on kickstarter?"
16:53<minexew>e.g. if you follow somebody and they star a project, you'll see that
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17:05<@Rubidium>the main problem with OpenTTD's development is its heritage. We don't really want to break things greatly as doing that means OpenTTD becomes something that is not based on Transport Tycoon. This makes the possible avenues of changes relatively small
17:06<@Rubidium>besides that, the issues that crop up aren't really interesting. It's mostly fighting with the subtle differences between different drivers and/or different versions of the same operating system, or just minor niggles
17:08<@Rubidium>furthermore OpenTTD has become quite stable, making merging unvetted things something that is rather frowned upon. As such someone with more or less proven knowledge of the affected components should review changes before merging them
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17:08<minexew>but with huge maps and massive networks that were not possible in TT, some usability improvements would be surely welcome
17:08<@Rubidium>after all, I can easily review complex encryption algorithms that come from the NSA and not spot any problems with it, but that is mostly because I am to unfamiliar with the intricacies of the field and such
17:09<minexew> for example
17:09<Terkhen>good night
17:10<minexew>i can't imagine a reason why somebody would object to features 1-3 from that thread
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really about objecting to features
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's checking implementations
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>is it error-free? is it maintainable by someone other than the author?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>does it disrupt anything that was there before?
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17:13<@Rubidium>the second chunk of the first patch looks iffy
17:14<@Rubidium>and it seems to be done, so in the second patch exactly the wrong thing can be done
17:19<minexew>Eddi|zuHause:what would you suggest as a solution to this lack of reviewers?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>there are generally 2 ways to solve lack of staff: reactivate old staff or introduce new staff. the latter is not just done by exposing the project to more people, those new people must be active enough to prove valuable and capable of being introduced to the core staff to make such reviews
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>bringing in too many new unexperienced people may even prove counterproductive, as there are not enough veteran people to weed things out
17:24<minexew>but how are those new people supposed to prove themselves? by submitting patches that end up gathering dust? :P
17:25<@Rubidium>hint: solving existing bugs in an elegant manner will yield more points and faster "graduation" than cranking out many features but never finishing them. That is the basic functionality is there, but all the corner cases are a gaping hole. For example day length patch(es)
17:28<minexew>from reading the forums i got the impression that nobody will bother reviewing a big patch, such as one needed for a significant change like that
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's not really it.
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>huge patches did get reviewed, but it requires A LOT of patience and dedication on both sides
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>in the end, this is still a hobby project, which doesn't fit these two attributes very well
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>and no amount of (throw buzzword in here) will change that
17:33<@Rubidium>not to mention the amount of times the answer of the author of the reviewed patch(set) was something amongst the like of: explitive, take it or leave it... you suck all the fun out of this patch
17:35<@Rubidium>and patch packs are somewhat detrimental to getting authors working on patches, because as soon as it is in a patch pack they often think they're done
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17:36<minexew>well that should be no surprise, as it's much easier to get your patch into a patch pack than into trunk
17:37<minexew>especially if it's of poor quality
17:43<minexew>how difficult would it be to get something like the industry tooltips patch through, if the code was OK?
17:44<@Rubidium>and that patch set is quite bad as it requires 40 times more memory for network packages, meaning sending a 10 MiB map in MP requires 400 MiB of memory server side
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17:44<minexew>Rubidium:i get it, i didn't write that code and can't argue for its quality
17:45<@Rubidium>oh, it's even a factor 44.887
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>baker's 40, because you're such a good customer
17:47<@Rubidium>if the code was sane and elegant, then it mostly depends on when a core developer with knowledge of the area has time to review it but that should probably not take a hell of a lot of time
17:47<@Rubidium>and the latter is the main problem
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17:52<@Rubidium>one might say that "everyone" wants to bolt new things onto OpenTTD, but nobody wants to maintain OpenTTD
17:55<@Rubidium>anyway... night
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18:06<_dp_>there is independent implementation of those tooltips in citymania (former novapolis) patchpack, if you like it I can make a separate patch for it
18:07<_dp_>same goes for many other features from this patchpack
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: well, you're free to submit thos
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18:15<_dp_>And I am submitting them sometimes, but I don't want to waste time on something that will just lay somewhere on flyspray turning to dust
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>they may very well do that for a while, but you'll never know if you don't start
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>generally: the smaller and cleaner a patch is, the higher its chances of being reviewed
18:23<minexew>_dp_:please do
18:23<_dp_>it's not always about code, I don't think you need some citybuilder features no matter how good code is
18:24<_dp_>for features that were made by me and whics I consider to have chances of being accepted I usually submit patches
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think in the rarest case, features get rejected for the feature's sake
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes because it clashes with another feature (existing or future)
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>and most of the features that would be rejected for the feature's sake never make it to any stage of implementation for this to take effect
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>i mean things along the lines of "make it more violent" or "make it more like sim city"
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18:31<_dp_>well, mb it's the other way around, they never make it to that stage because they would be rejected anyway ;)
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, people have been telling that daylength patches won't be accepted because they're never going to be able to be polished enough to make it, yet people still attempted to make more daylength patches
18:44<+glx>and each try is as buggy as others ;)
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20:53<Eddi|zuHause>the way i see it, there are two basic problems with the daylength patches
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>first, every time a daylength patch was started, they bascally started from scratch and ignored all the experience and mistakes that were done in the previous attempts
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>second, all the attempts were "bottom up". starting with changing daylength, and then seeing which things need fixing wrt being per day or per tick
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>where i think the approach must be "top down". first identifying which things should be per day, and which should be per tick, adapting the architecture to reflect that, and THEN adding daylength
21:00<Sylf>Oh bitch, you forum >_<
21:01<Sylf>oh, yet another daylength discussion
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23:29<fkinglag>is openttd the best FOSS game?
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 13 00:00:27 2015