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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-06-13

---Logopened Sat Jun 13 00:00:27 2015
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00:28<Flygon>fkinglag: Depends on your opinions towards piracy
00:28<Flygon>And if you would count open source shareware
00:28<Flygon>eg. DooM :B
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01:30<andythenorth>o/
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02:14-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
02:16<Terkhen>good morning
02:21<Supercheese>good evening
02:22<andythenorth>bonjour
02:22<andythenorth>there is a new feature in the sprite aligner recently?
02:22<andythenorth>relative offset?
02:24<@Alberth>yes
02:24<@Alberth>someone was annoyed enough to make a patch
02:25<andythenorth>either we have sub-pixel alignment now, or it doesn’t account for UI zoom ;)
02:25<andythenorth>or something else :P
02:25<@Alberth>sounds complete enough :)
02:26<@Alberth>I don't know if it is pre-UIzoom, but it can be
02:26<Supercheese>think it's post
02:27<@Alberth>I think there is an issue about it, and maybe frosch even fixed something there
02:27*andythenorth noticed today
02:27*andythenorth has been fixing Iron Horse
02:27<andythenorth>terrible grf, wouldn’t use it
02:27<andythenorth>full of bugs :P
02:27<@Alberth>happy horse :)
02:29<andythenorth>happier now
02:30*andythenorth ponders parameter for intro dates
02:30<andythenorth>1x, 2x, 4x, 8x
02:30<andythenorth>weird or no?
02:32<@Alberth>0x would be weird :p
02:32<andythenorth>ha ha
02:32<@Alberth>well, I still think the daylength solution is in newgrf rather than c++ engine code
02:32<andythenorth>well
02:33<@Alberth>so it looks like a good experiment to me
02:33<andythenorth>I can solve it for ships, trains, RVs, industries
02:33<andythenorth>so pikka just needs to do planes and houses :P
02:33<andythenorth>but if the same code is in every newgrf for this, then I wonder if newgrf spec should handle it :P
02:33<andythenorth>‘scale intro dates'
02:34<@Alberth>makes sense
02:34<andythenorth>I think there are problems with how some people use callbacks though :(
02:34<andythenorth>e.g. I have date-based callbacks for graphics
02:35<andythenorth>OpenTTD should just lie to newgrfs about the date :P
02:35<@Alberth>problem is that all realistic newgrfs will be horribly broken
02:37<andythenorth>oh dear :D
02:37<andythenorth>how sad
02:37<@Alberth>I do like different graphics for the same wagon, it makes the train more colourful
02:37<@Alberth>tbh I don't care if you do that based on date or on random or some other method
02:39<@Alberth>hmm, maybe we should have unltra-realistic dates, one day == 24 hours
02:39<andythenorth>it’s mostly industry graphics that are date-based in my case
02:39<andythenorth>but eh
02:39<andythenorth>‘other newgrfs are available’ :P
02:40<@Alberth>any shorter day messes up the time in the game :)
02:40<@Alberth>yeah, opengfx+trains changes appearance over time
02:42<@Alberth>nuts uses hidden features :)
02:42<@Alberth>transporting ducks :)
03:02*andythenorth ponders
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03:18<andythenorth>hmm
03:18<andythenorth>it would be nice to switch colour on these tank cars
03:18<supermop_>make them iridescent
03:20*andythenorth considers splitting ‘’tank car’ and oil tank car’
03:20<andythenorth>make them company colour and black
03:21<andythenorth>or ‘chemicals tank car’ and ‘oil tank car'
03:21<andythenorth>dunno
03:23<@Alberth>oild and non-oil :)
03:23<andythenorth>I got bored of them all being black
03:24*andythenorth wonders if ‘livery’ should be a thing for vehicles
03:24<andythenorth>or if it’s fine to just handle it in buy menu
03:25<supermop_>liveries could be fun
03:25<supermop_>to make things less boring?
03:26<supermop_>what am i supposed to use this avocet for
03:26<supermop_>should i buy more than one or would that be cheating
03:28*andythenorth looks up ‘over-thinking it’ in a dictionary :P
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03:28<@Alberth>just do what your heart tells you to?
03:29<@Alberth>no need to have a consistent global idea :)
03:29<@Alberth>hi newbie
03:29<newbie>heart
03:30<@Alberth>hmm, my unicode fonts aren't very complete :)
03:31<supermop_>oh its a class 90 not 89
03:31<andythenorth>you’re playing UKRS 2?
03:31<@Alberth>supermop_: hmm, not a bird eh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avocet
03:31<supermop_>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_89
03:31<supermop_>yeah
03:32<@Alberth>newbie: but feel free to join the discussion, we're pretty much never on-topic :)
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03:32<supermop_>with manpower industries
03:32<andythenorth>Pineapple and Iron Horse solve these realism dilemmas for you supermop_ :P
03:32<supermop_>very hard to make money
03:32<@Alberth>Aardvark :)
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03:33<@Alberth>wb
03:34<andythenorth>hmm
03:34<supermop_>andythenorth: i like the liveries?
03:34<supermop_>but i play with cc
03:34<andythenorth>do default trains shift y position by 1 pixel when reversing direction? o_O
03:34*andythenorth may have done something wrong in Iron Horse :(
03:34<supermop_>just like how the things turn grey in the 80s when pulling freight
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03:35<supermop_>ogfx+ should have different liveries for sh 30 and 40
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03:35<supermop_>so they dont just look like two identical toasters
03:35<@Alberth>ogfx+ has as general problem lack of choice imho
03:36<openbu>idea
03:38<peter1138>supermop_, not possible without newgrf.
03:38<supermop_>ogfx+ is a newgrf
03:38<peter1138>Oh, +
03:51<supermop_>how do i get the pointy cab car on the back of my class 90 hauled trains?
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04:02<peter1138>mail carriage?
04:04<supermop_>oooh ill try that
04:05<supermop_>mail car can only do 160 though
04:06<supermop_>hmm nope
04:13<supermop_>Alberth: you mean that ogfx+ trains should have more locomotives, or what?
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04:14<@Alberth>mostly yes, currently it just replicates default vehicles
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04:15<@Alberth>it'd be nice if you could postpone switching to eg monorail or maglev a bit
04:15<@Alberth>or even electric, for the climates that use that
04:16<@Alberth>not sure it should go much further though, after all it's default-ish, which in my view, includes forced transition to other railtypes
04:17<@Alberth>although openttd makes it too easy to do that "wrong"
04:17<@Alberth>ie upgrade to next railtype in a few mouse clicks basically kills the idea
04:18<supermop_>hmm
04:18<@Alberth>what you'd want is more time to make the transition, and some incentive not to just replace all you have
04:18<supermop_>the american/tropic climates should have some electrics maybe
04:19<supermop_>and some standard gauge locomotives beyond 1994 would help in temperate
04:19<@Alberth>maybe monorail + maglev is too much, switching rail type so often in 100 years feels a bit forced to me
04:20<supermop_>the 'arctic' climate could use a train of any kind before the 50s
04:20<@Alberth>I am suspecting CS ran out of ideas what to do in 100 game years
04:20<supermop_>true...
04:21<supermop_>but maglev is quite ttd feeling maybe?
04:21<@Alberth>everybody uses that as it's the final type, and it has the fastest engines and is most reliable
04:22<@Alberth>although reliability is useless for most
04:22<supermop_>i never have used default maglev myself
04:22<supermop_>also i have rarely played a default game long enough to get maglev
04:23<@Alberth>yeah, I have only reached that point a few times
04:23<@Alberth>and I can see the value of adding a completely new track type
04:24<@Alberth>but as complementary to what you have, imho
04:24<@Alberth>no idea how to do that though :(
04:25<@Alberth>in the original game, you had to take down your network, and rebuild it
04:25<@Alberth>that had the advantage that you reconsidered place of tracks, etc
04:25<supermop_>also we could say "maglev is passenger and mail only" - much like tto monorail
04:26<supermop_>but
04:26<supermop_>that feels too limiting
04:26<supermop_>maglev should maybe carry coal, but perhaps not as well as rail?
04:26<@Alberth>then you need to add 'normal' engines for the industries
04:27<@Alberth>coal is probably the most useless stuff to transport fast :)
04:27<@Alberth>it's a million years old, taking a year to ship it is not going to make any difference :)
04:27<supermop_>like maybe a maglev car can carry col if you really want, but only 10T insted of 40...
04:27<supermop_>and takes longer to unload because it is not a regular hopper - cannot dump out the bottom
04:28<@Alberth>you need some competition at normal tracks imho
04:28<@Alberth>much like nuts is doing
04:28<supermop_>so maybe you get a new efficient rail locomotive in 2050
04:29<supermop_>maybe it only does 160 kmh but is cheap to run, has lots of power
04:29<@Alberth>much much earlier, you won't be able to keep normal rail running until 2050
04:29<@Alberth>but yep, something like that
04:29<supermop_>well also in 1995, 2005,...2045...
04:29<supermop_>once every 10 years or so
04:29<@Alberth>woow :)
04:30*andythenorth was going to add Maglev to Iron Horse, but....hasn't
04:30<andythenorth>for reasons
04:30<andythenorth>like ‘why?'
04:30<supermop_>andythenorth: didnt some airport in uk have a maglev in the 80s?
04:30<@Alberth>supermop_: you know entire electric in default is just 2 or 3 engines, right?
04:30<supermop_>yeah -
04:30<@Alberth>a new one every ten years is too much :)
04:31<supermop_>i like ukrs 2 because it is like playing tto but with more electrics
04:31<supermop_>well maybe not every ten
04:31<@Alberth>many newgrf have way too many engines
04:31<@Alberth>openttd makes it workable by the autoupdate
04:31<supermop_>but a mix of a few powerful and a few small locomotives to last until 2100 or so
04:32<supermop_>one every 20 years maybe
04:32<@Alberth>something like that, 2050 is enough, unless you extend maglev too
04:34<@Alberth>you would have to check what default does currently, and keep that mostly to get a continuous line
04:34<supermop_>i also like IH because it is like tto with more locomotives
04:34<@Alberth>although with diesels, I always found I got too many
04:34<supermop_>but not too many
04:35<supermop_>well in temerate you get all 3 diesels in the same 5 year span, then never get any more
04:35<@Alberth>oh, could be, never really checked that
04:35<@Alberth>but normally I pick one and use that for everything
04:36<@Alberth>also due to reliability, making the others quite useless
04:36<supermop_>in that regard default is almost too realistic, BR did build a lot of diesels in late 50s-early 60s, then did not design more for a long time
04:36<supermop_>in default temperate, the floss 47 is pretty much the only one to use
04:36<@Alberth>ungrade should be worthwhile imho. From 150 km/h to 160 km/h doesn't do much
04:37<@Alberth>*upgrade
04:38<supermop_>i dont think i've played an IH game into the 80s though
04:38<@Alberth>me neither, probably, as it starts really early :)
04:39<supermop_>i think it does diesels well though -
04:39<supermop_>there is a big difference between small branch line, fast express, and powerful freight
04:40<@Alberth>I mostly do the latter only :)
04:41<@Alberth>pax is nice due to the insane amount of cargo :)
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04:41<supermop_>more multiple units could be nice
04:41<supermop_>but not as many as some newgrfs have
04:41<andythenorth>I have just played from 1968 or so to 2014
04:42<supermop_>in 2cc set there are so many EMUs you have no idea what to pick
04:42<supermop_>in default there are only two DMUs, only in temperate, and they come at a sort of akward time
04:43<@Alberth>of course, you put a bunch of train collectors together, and ask what to draw :p
04:43<supermop_>ogfx+ could use maye one more dmu, and maybe 3-4 emu
04:43<@Alberth>obviously, you'll end up with the union of everything ever built :)
04:43<supermop_>haha
04:43<supermop_>except for some odd huge gaps
04:43<andythenorth>IH diesels and electrics, it’s always obvious which one to choose
04:44<andythenorth>to me anyway :P
04:44<andythenorth>which was the goal
04:44<supermop_>for some reason 2cc set has almost no american or australian multiple units, but an insane number or european ones
04:44<andythenorth>the progression in IH is a bit fast 1950-1980
04:44<@Alberth>supermop_: yep, reality has this problem of not working out that it fits perfectly in a game :p
04:45<supermop_>andythenorth: the chinook gets let out in the cold a bit
04:45<supermop_>i try to keep a few running
04:45<supermop_>by cascading them other places
04:47<supermop_>but the combination of slow and long means they usually get replaced by vulcans before the gridiron even arrives for me
04:47<supermop_>is the gridiron a 58?
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04:49<andythenorth>nah
04:50<andythenorth>most things are not anything in Iron Horse
04:50<andythenorth>Chinook is fairly obvious and realistic
04:50<andythenorth>the rest…not
04:51<andythenorth>gridiron could be HS 4000 / 56 / 58 / 59 / 60 / 66
04:52<andythenorth>Vulcan is any of DP 2 / Deltic / 37 / 50
04:53<andythenorth>we looked at quite a lot of prototypes or proposed prototypes
04:53<andythenorth>but stats are all done for game balance
04:58<supermop_>aha
05:00<supermop_>i've found use for these little 08s in this game
05:00<supermop_>by using them to fillout out a shared orders group for timetabling before i can afford to buy a full complement of trains
05:02<supermop_>if a turn takes 200 days and i want it served every 40 days, but can only afford 2-3 trains right now, ill fill out the group with shunters parked in depots to set the start dates
05:02<supermop_>then substitute in trains as i can afford them
05:02<@Alberth>nice idea
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05:03*andythenorth wonders if Iron Horse needs EMUs
05:03<supermop_>it has the tube emus
05:03<Wolf01>moin
05:04<supermop_>Alberth: it gives me an excuse to have the cute little shunters sitting around
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05:09*andythenorth bbl
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05:11<@Alberth>hi
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05:20<openbu>hi
05:24<frosch123>hola
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06:16<leg>hi. I am running an openttd and a player forgot his company password, is it possible for me to recover/reset it?
06:23-!-Progman [~progman@p57A181CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
06:23<frosch123>use the console to move them to their company
06:23<frosch123>then they can set a new password
06:24<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Console#Multiplayer_commands <- see "clients" and "companies" and "move"
06:25<frosch123>alternatively move yourself to that company, and set your own password
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06:28<leg>thanks frosch123
06:28<leg>:)
06:28<NumberNoid>is there a newgfr that adds passanger destinations?
06:29<@Alberth>no
06:29<@Alberth>newwer openttds have cargo dist though
06:29<@Alberth>*newer
06:29<NumberNoid>what does cargo distribution do though?
06:30<openbu>setting
06:30<@Alberth>it gives cargo (which can include passengers and mail) a destination they want to go to, in your network
06:30<NumberNoid>and where is that setting?
06:31<@Alberth>in 'settings' :p
06:31<NumberNoid>found it
06:32<@Alberth>k
06:32<@Alberth>you can enable passengers/mail, valuables, and 'other cargo' separately afaik
06:32<NumberNoid>is asymetric more realistic than symmetric?
06:33<@Alberth>symmetric is easier in a sense, and both directions get more or less the same amount of cargo
06:33<openbu>welcome to our servers Dedicated openbu.org -#1-[1995,2050] MBA,EMBA,Capitalism lab,Stock Market,Apartment,
06:34<@Alberth>on the other hand, produced cargo by an industry is rarely symmetric :)
06:34<NumberNoid>thanks :D
06:34<@Alberth>openbu: please don't do that, we don't need advertising
06:35<openbu>oh,sorry
06:35<NumberNoid>so this finally means I can have a useful interchange system :D
06:36<@Alberth>well, it depends on what you think is useful :)
06:36<NumberNoid>it gets used
06:36<@Alberth>oh sure
06:36<NumberNoid>not just a liability that sometimes snips the overflow
06:36*NumberNoid glares at previous airport interchange
06:37<@Alberth>but there are no alternatives, so "use" doesn't mean a lot
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06:38<NumberNoid>is there any plans to add a subway system to openttd?
06:38<NumberNoid>aswell as cliffs?
06:38-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
06:38<@Alberth>it sounds like you have a plan, so yes :p
06:38<@Alberth>but nothing concretely
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you consider a "plan"
06:38<NumberNoid>my programming skills don't extend past livecode, which I had to learn at school
06:38<@Alberth>and I very much doubt it would fit in openttd, tbh
06:39<@Alberth>maybe the subway would fit
06:39<NumberNoid>yeah, that's what wouyld be very good
06:39<NumberNoid>I tried simutrans but the UI is just wtf
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>for me, "subway" is a natural extension of the tram system
06:39<NumberNoid>along with the cycles being laggy
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>you lay the tram tracks under (or over) the road to prevent blocking by road vehicles in crowded cities
06:40<@Alberth>NumberNoid: ever tried this program called OpenTTD? it also has lots of weird UI corners where you need to know how to use it :)
06:40<NumberNoid>yeah
06:40-!-PulecB is now known as Pulec
06:40<NumberNoid>I am playing openttd :P
06:41<NumberNoid>and the UI is intuitive
06:41<@Alberth>If you know a system, it's always intuitive
06:41<NumberNoid>I guess
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>there are definitely cases where you know a system, and it's still wtf :p
06:42*NumberNoid glares at blender
06:42<@Alberth>and git :)
06:42<NumberNoid>oh god git
06:42<NumberNoid>why no GUI
06:42<@Alberth>that's normal
06:42<NumberNoid>its annoying
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>there are probably plenty of git guis
06:43<@Alberth>I have yet to see a VCS that comes with a UI
06:43<@Alberth>UI is always separate
06:43<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: not of any useful quality, I am afraid
06:43<@Alberth>maybe the github client
06:43<@Alberth>haven't tried that
06:44<@Alberth>but it may not run at linux :)
06:44<NumberNoid>my main issue with linux is that it just doesnt have many GUI's or a simple package installer
06:44<NumberNoid>...that isnt in the command line
06:45<@Alberth>huh?
06:45<@Alberth>ever tried yumex?
06:45<NumberNoid>nope
06:45<NumberNoid>only debian and ubuntu
06:45<NumberNoid>my laptop is debian
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>there are quite certainly package manager GUIs
06:45<@Alberth>ah yes, the pure unixy stuff :)
06:46<NumberNoid>I guess I could get windows bakc on it
06:46<NumberNoid>but I don't see the point outside of increased software support
06:46<NumberNoid>like
06:46<NumberNoid>I cant think of any game that I play that doesnt run on linux
06:46<NumberNoid>and more specifically on 5y hardware
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on how many games you play
06:47<@Alberth>as well as type of game
06:47<NumberNoid>OTTD, ETS2, cities
06:47<NumberNoid>sometimes Planetside2
06:47<NumberNoid>but im done with that game for a while
06:47<@Alberth>but the linux support is growing, which is good
06:48<NumberNoid>I guess
06:48<NumberNoid>I wish there was a good emulator for linux that could run all the games without hitches
06:48<NumberNoid>or wine got developed more
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>out of the 9 games i have on steam, 3 are windows-only
06:49<NumberNoid>I have 140 games on steam, about 60 are linux compatable
06:49<NumberNoid>and about 20 run on 5y hardware
06:49<NumberNoid>my PC is a proper gaming one
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>and then i have some games outside steam, which almost all are windows games
06:49<NumberNoid>but I need other things before a new laptop
06:50<@Alberth>like money :)
06:50<NumberNoid>yeah, that too
06:52<NumberNoid>or hacking abilities :3
06:53<@Alberth>you already have those
06:53<NumberNoid>I guess
06:53<@Alberth>you just need to use them, to get more :)
06:54<NumberNoid>considering I said this on the net im quite sure it wouldnt be wise to hack anyone
06:54<NumberNoid>especially with windows on my machine
06:57<@Alberth>hacking other peoples property doesn't sound right to me
06:58<@Alberth>I see "hacking" in the original meaning, "finding out how things work"
07:00<@Alberth>you can do that with just your own stuff
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07:02<NumberNoid>im quite sure it'd be difficult to optise 5yr old hardware
07:03<NumberNoid>optimise*
07:05<@Alberth>most gain is not in the hardware, but in the software
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07:06<NumberNoid>I guess
07:07<NumberNoid>but there is bound to be some hardware inefficencies in the terms of addressing and task managment
07:07<jottyfan>yesterday I gave a patch for game script busy bee to Alberh if I remember correctly
07:07<NumberNoid>which, ironically, goes back to "driving" software
07:07<jottyfan>then my time ran out
07:08<jottyfan>I just wanted to have a look for comments / questions about that
07:08<jottyfan>are there some?
07:08*NumberNoid doesnt use game scripts
07:09<NumberNoid>also, there is a bug on the roads with one way arrows
07:09<NumberNoid>on slopes they don't slope with the road
07:11<@Alberth>jottyfan: patch was not complete
07:11<jottyfan>ok, what is missing?
07:12<@Alberth>functionality :) https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p4t1f1xq3
07:14<@Alberth>ie a new setting and a bunch of new string doesn't make a new feature :)
07:14<jottyfan>yes
07:15<jottyfan>I wonder where the diffs of the nut files are...
07:15<jottyfan>sorry
07:15<@Alberth>np, it happens, especially when you're in a hurry
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>wrt that setting: what use is a value range of 0..99 if only 3,2,1 give sane results?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, why not reuse the game setting?
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07:18<jottyfan>now here you go: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pq3xf4jt4
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07:19<jottyfan>@Eddi|zuHause: these settings are useful for changing the game in a way the player wants - why not a range from 0 to 99?
07:20<jottyfan>btw. it's not the subsidy factor itself
07:20<jottyfan>it's the factor for the delivered cargo to become reward
07:20<jottyfan>nothing more
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>jottyfan: so setting 0 means no income at all? and between 1 and 2 (which the original setting had a 1.5 option) you have no variation potential?
07:20<jottyfan>correct
07:21<jottyfan>0 is useful if you want to disable financial rewards for fulfilling jobs
07:21<jottyfan>which is default
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>and factor 50 or 99 have no use, because both of them mean "make this ridiculously easy"
07:21<jottyfan>but for people like me who want to use that, I'd like to choose for example factor 1
07:21<jottyfan>or 16
07:21<jottyfan>or whatever
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07:22<jottyfan>but if I want to play openttd the easy way, I can choose 99
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>but there is almost no difference between 98 or 99
07:23<@Alberth>it sounds too big to me
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>so why have so many options in that range?
07:23<jottyfan>well
07:23<jottyfan>I've just guessed a bit
07:24<jottyfan>one can easily change it to a lower bound before it is included to the official sources (if so)
07:24<@Alberth>that would be now :)
07:24<jottyfan>so ok
07:24<@Alberth>I can see the point of Eddi
07:24<@Alberth>maybe make smaller steps in the low end of the range, and skip most if not all of the top part?
07:25<jottyfan>what about a factor of 10, instead of range 0 - 99 a range of 0 - 9 multiplied by 10?
07:25<@Alberth>note that BB gives you a lot of assignments, much more than subsidies
07:26<@Alberth>why do you want anything above say 5 ?
07:26<@Alberth>maybe even 3 or 4 ?
07:26<jottyfan>ok, so a range from 0 to 4 multiplied by 20?
07:27<jottyfan>I don't know how to make a value of 1.5 in the GSInfo.AddSetting...
07:27<@Alberth>0 to 4 sounds good, perhaps in increments of 0.5?
07:28<@Alberth>just use integers 0..9, and divide by 2 in the reward calculation
07:28<@Alberth>or 2.0, for that mater
07:28<@Alberth>*matter
07:29<@Alberth>why do you double town goals?
07:29<jottyfan>did I?
07:29<@Alberth>this.reward = this.reward * 2; // for town goals, multiply reward
07:30<@Alberth>indenting is wrong in the paste, used a weird tab setting?
07:30<jottyfan>oh yes
07:30<jottyfan>no, I just wanted to make town rewards more attractive
07:31<jottyfan>but this could be a config option, too
07:32<leg>Can I update openTTD server 1.4.1 to 1.5.1 without losing everything?
07:32<jottyfan>about the tab setting - yes, I used kwrite... :-(
07:32<@Alberth>towns only seems wrong, it would need balance to both sides
07:32<@Alberth>but I am not sure it's wise to add anything like that
07:33<jottyfan>why not a town bonus factor?
07:33<@Alberth>leg: just install next to it?
07:33<leg>but will I not lose the map, Alberth?
07:33<leg>if I upgrade the server to 1.5.1
07:34<@Alberth>leg: no idea, I never did any server install stuff
07:34<@Alberth>but in general, don't overwrite the file, and you should still have it :)
07:35<@Alberth>leg: "next to it" specifically means not overwriting anything :)
07:35<@Alberth>jottyfan: why only towns?
07:35<jottyfan>ok, so also for industries
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07:36<@Alberth>yeah, the main problem is that number of industry cargoes and number of town cargoes is not balanced
07:36<@Alberth>hi andy
07:37<jottyfan>should they depend?
07:37<@Alberth>they already do
07:38<leg>thanks Alberth
07:38<@Alberth>2xtown means you give more to town goals (for their cargoes), than to industry (for their cargoes)
07:38<@Alberth>so if you change the number of cargoes by a different industry set, that balance changes too
07:39<jottyfan>yes
07:39<jottyfan>but if I put that to the config options, the player can choose what the balance is
07:40<jottyfan>what range is good for that? Also 0 to 5 by step 0.5?
07:40<jottyfan>better 1 to 5?
07:41<@Alberth>I'd say 0 to 2 in steps of 0.1 or so
07:41<andythenorth>o/
07:41<@Alberth>but it needs something with the cargoes
07:42<@Alberth>or perhaps I am just overthinking it :)
07:42<jottyfan>yes, that would be best, but I don't know how to get cargo price values in the script
07:42<supermop>yo andy
07:43<@Alberth>well, one step at a time
07:43<jottyfan>ok, I'll post the current changes
07:43<@Alberth>take out the city reward for now
07:43<jottyfan>but didn't test that yet
07:44<@Alberth>tbh I am far from convinced for all this reward tuning
07:45<@Alberth>jottyfan: If you want more than just this one step, I think it might be better to make a fork
07:46<jottyfan>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pzceulcti
07:46<jottyfan>that's the current code
07:46<jottyfan>ok
07:46<jottyfan>so you would prefer to become this a fork?
07:47<jottyfan>I don't know how to make this a fork
07:47<@Alberth>giving a reward is one, I can live with that in BB
07:48<@Alberth>further tuning will be a maze of cases that you can or might want to handle
07:48<jottyfan>ok
07:48<@Alberth>I am quite sure, there'll be lots of interest in it :)
07:49<jottyfan>so If I remove the reward factor for towns and industries, you may include that patch into busy bee?
07:49<@Alberth>jottyfan: if you want a fork, you have to decide where to host it
07:49<jottyfan>yes, and this is making me trouble
07:49<@Alberth>...
07:50<jottyfan>I just wanted to have subsidies for cargodist goods - using busy bee I can
07:50<jottyfan>with that patch
07:50<@Alberth>you don't want reward factors?
07:50<jottyfan>but it's just a sort of subsidies
07:51<@Alberth>yes, lots of subsidies
07:51<@Alberth>BB generates a lot of goals
07:51<jottyfan>I like reward factors, but I cannot take care of a fork for that
07:52<jottyfan>therefore, I'd like to see it in busy bee
07:52<jottyfan>so whenever I come back in let's say a year, download openttd, install game script busy bee
07:52<jottyfan>I can be able to use subsidies for cargodist goods
07:52<jottyfan>that's the idea
07:52<@Alberth>so ownership of the project is your problem
07:52<jottyfan>and if I cannot have reward factors for towns and industries, that's ok
07:53<jottyfan>yes
07:53<jottyfan>and therefore, I'd like this little reward patch to be included in the main project
07:53<jottyfan>it's not that much change
07:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: fancy another BB to take care of? :)
07:53<@Alberth>do you have a nice name jottyfan?
07:54<jottyfan>to honour busy bee, I just called it busy bee rewards
07:54<jottyfan>but I'm not convinced by that
07:54<jottyfan>:-)
07:55<@Alberth>I have no problem with becoming owner of the fork
07:55<@Alberth>do you want to become co-owner?
07:55<@Alberth>or some other role in the project (don't know exactly what devzone has)
07:55<jottyfan>that would be nice, but I'm always busy, don't have much time for that
07:55<@Alberth>please make an account at the devzone
07:56<jottyfan>currently expecting the birth of my second child
07:56<@Alberth>hmm :)
07:56<jottyfan>http://devzone.zend.com/ ?
07:57<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/
07:57<jottyfan>a new password - argh
07:57<andythenorth>on the plus side the second one is not as much work as the first one
07:57<jottyfan>if I forget that, a new one is mailed to me?
07:58<andythenorth>on the minus side, it’s still nearly double the work in total :P
07:58<@Alberth>jottyfan: don't know, probably
07:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: I expect more work here, as there will be more users addicted to getting stuff in return
07:59<jottyfan>what's an OpenID-Url?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't know that, ignore it
07:59<jottyfan>ok
08:00<@Alberth>jottyfan, andythenorth: Bee Rewards?
08:00<jottyfan>nice
08:01<jottyfan>ok, I've logged in to https://dev.openttdcoop.org
08:01<jottyfan>my nick name is jottyfan, as you might expect... :-)
08:01<@Alberth>nice and simple to guess :)
08:02<jottyfan>yes
08:02<@Alberth>please join #openttdcoop.devzone
08:02<jottyfan>ok, what do I have to do to publish the forked code?
08:03<jottyfan>ok, switched chat room
08:03<jottyfan>so I leave this one
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>... you can be in more than one chatroom :p
08:06<NumberNoid>lol
08:18<andythenorth>fork it
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08:32<andythenorth>you developers and your obscure scripting language
08:35<frosch123>i wondered what it refered to :)
08:35<frosch123>i somehow doubt it was squirrel
08:35<frosch123>rather newgrf, or even c++
08:38<NumberNoid>I need to ask, is there any way of setting fare prices?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRFs can change them
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>you can adjust all of them up or down by base cost, or you can adjust each one individually in industry grf
08:42<NumberNoid>so I can charge exorbitant fees for planes >:D
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>set plane speed factor to 1
08:42<NumberNoid>done that
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>fly large distances
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>swim in money
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>(or turn on airport maintenance and go bankrupt)
08:44<NumberNoid>I don't see that option
08:46<NumberNoid>oh god
08:46<NumberNoid>Ive lost a train
08:46<NumberNoid>I have no idea where its gone
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08:47<NumberNoid>there it is
08:47<NumberNoid>it went on an inter-network voyage to find a depot
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09:50<andythenorth>hmm
09:50<andythenorth>up to 16 livery options per vehicle
09:51<andythenorth>applied by a UI similar to the consist refit UI, which allows partial-selection
09:51<andythenorth>don’t bother with previews, overkill
09:51<andythenorth>nah better it make it 255
09:51<andythenorth>due to WAS and such
09:53<andythenorth>in fact, 16536 might be needed
09:55<andythenorth>all this because I want to choose black or CC tanker wagons :P
10:01<@Alberth>:O
10:01<NumberNoid>any way to increase the fast forward speed?
10:01<@Alberth>buy a faster computer, or play a smaller world
10:01<@Alberth>close the window, or make it smaller
10:02<@Alberth>disable some animation stuff
10:02<@Alberth>look at trains while they go by
10:02<NumberNoid>im 100% sure my pc is capable of running fastforward faster than this
10:02<@Alberth>I am 100% sure it isn't :)
10:03<NumberNoid>fx8320, gtx770, 12gbram?
10:03<@Alberth>"fast foward" means "as fast as the computer allows"
10:03<NumberNoid>on realtime
10:03<NumberNoid>nothings changed
10:03<@Alberth>note openttd doesn't use much memory, the gpu, or multiple cores (well, it does, but not much)
10:04<NumberNoid>exactly
10:04<NumberNoid>it should be able to run this faster
10:04<NumberNoid>currently at 16% cpu
10:04<NumberNoid>and 800mb ram
10:04<@Alberth>yes 1 core full load
10:04<Taede>6 cores?
10:04<NumberNoid>nope, 8
10:04<NumberNoid>the load is distrubuted primarly though cores 3,4
10:04<@Alberth>100 / 8 is 12.5 %
10:05<NumberNoid>according to task manager its not using any core fully
10:06<@Alberth>then it's waiting for video or disk io, or something
10:06<andythenorth>maybe I just change colour by cargo
10:06<andythenorth>weird side effects with station refit, but eh, who cares? o_O
10:06*andythenorth bll
10:06<andythenorth>or bbl
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10:07<NumberNoid>yeah, diskIO
10:07<NumberNoid>im confused as in why system is using 55MB
10:08<NumberNoid>nvm
10:08<NumberNoid>it just spikes
10:08<NumberNoid>to 3/4
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10:09<@Alberth>my guess would be video, especially if you have a large window, and use 32bpp
10:09<NumberNoid>c'mon mate
10:09<NumberNoid>gtx770 rendering sprites
10:09<@Alberth>ha, nope
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10:09<@Alberth>cpu is rendering sprites
10:10<NumberNoid>any way to force gpu rendering?
10:10<@Alberth>yes, rewrite openttd
10:10<NumberNoid>wait
10:10<@Alberth>oh, and people tried, and failed
10:10<NumberNoid>openttd is coded to render using cpu?!
10:11<Taede>opengl style patches tended to be slower
10:11<@Alberth>yep, TTDX is pre-gpu era
10:11<NumberNoid>O.O
10:11<NumberNoid>that's old
10:11<NumberNoid>time to OC I guess
10:11<NumberNoid>to 4.5GHz
10:12<Taede>previous milennium really
10:12<NumberNoid>Is the other, 3d openttd, like game on steam worth it?
10:13<@Alberth>it can't be openttd
10:13<NumberNoid>I guess
10:13<NumberNoid>but does it have the base features of openttd?
10:13<@Alberth>maybe a transport-ish game, but it's definitely not openttd
10:13<NumberNoid>i.e. planes, trains, cars
10:13<NumberNoid>plus signalling
10:13<Taede>name f the game?
10:13<Taede>train fever?
10:13<NumberNoid>yeah
10:13<NumberNoid>that
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10:14<Taede>dunno, cant play it on this laptip
10:14<Taede>there may be a thread on the tt-forums about it
10:15<Taede>no doubt itll compare it to openttd
10:15<NumberNoid>Id love to code a 3d openttd but as I mentioned my programming skills are terrible
10:16<@Alberth>it probably takes a 10 years if you mostly know what you're doing
10:17<@Alberth>if you don't, longer
10:17<@Alberth>so it's not a short term project by any means, learning to program can be a good first step
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10:19<@Alberth>you should focus on the journey, the end product is a nice 'accident' :)
10:22<NumberNoid>a 64x64 map runs considerably faster
10:22<NumberNoid>but
10:22<NumberNoid>still a bit slow
10:33<@Alberth>you're supposed to play the game at normal speed :)
10:34<NumberNoid>I don't have all year
10:34<NumberNoid>I wish I did
10:34<NumberNoid>but I don't
10:34<@Alberth>hmm, having free time, and still stressed on time?
10:35<@Alberth>just save, and continue next time
10:36<@Alberth>a single game takes me ages, as I don't play often, but who cares, nobody is setting a deadline
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10:52<andythenorth_>Eh
10:53<andythenorth_>Two kinds of dump truck in Road Hog
10:53<andythenorth_>Farm trucks, and trucks that refit coal, sand, scrap metal, recyclables etc
10:54<andythenorth_>Dunno what to call the second kind
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10:56<@Alberth>"trucks" ?
10:57<@Alberth>"agriculture trucks"
10:58<andythenorth_>Inorganic Material Dump Trucks? :p
10:58<andythenorth_>Maybe just Dump Truck :p
10:59<@Alberth>sounds fine to me
10:59<@Alberth>dump truck refitabble to ... :)
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13:48<kahiru>hey, i was playing openttd (about a year old version) and everything was great and dandy. today i upgraded to 1.5.1 and the map generator seems broken to me. no matter what i set it generates awful lot of water everywhere
13:56<@Alberth>set the water level to custom, and some very low amount?
13:58<kahiru>well, that would be a workaround. i just wanted to ask if this setting http://picpaste.com/openttd-rlkuYn4D.png should generate a map like this http://picpaste.com/openttd2-Pg2pnLMI.png or if its a bug or something
14:00<@Alberth>don't know
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14:01<kahiru>and also generating arctic climate map gives me a popup that there was no place for a forrest and that i should tweak my map generating parameters, but nothing seems to work. any ideas?
14:01<frosch123>there is a fs task about very smooth and very flat land generating lots of water
14:01<@Alberth>afaik "very low" is still a lot
14:01<kahiru>oh
14:01<frosch123>kahiru: forests only appear above snow line
14:02<kahiru>thanks, didnt know that
14:02<@Alberth>in arctic climate, at least :)
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14:13*andythenorth tinkers
14:22<@Alberth>good plan
14:54<andythenorth>dunno why I feel the need to be mean to the pipelines guy
14:54<andythenorth>I just suspect he’s a douche
15:00<andythenorth>which is better?
15:00<andythenorth>1. black tankers for oil, company colour for petrochemicals, determined by vehicle refit
15:01<andythenorth>2. randomised black / cc on build, if you want a train all one colour, you have to build and delete vehicles until you get the effect you want
15:01<andythenorth>?
15:06<frosch123>1.
15:06<Sylf>On the topic of lots of water, if you combine Flat terrain and any variety distribution, it leads to lots of water. At least that's been my experience
15:06<Sylf>with 1.5
15:07<andythenorth>rebuild-until-desired-color is boring
15:07*andythenorth changes it
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15:24<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7348/tank_cars.png
15:24<andythenorth>oil, petrol, chemicals
15:24<andythenorth>white ones are food tankers, a different vehicle type
15:33<@Alberth>you're polishing them every day :)
15:33<@Alberth>but colours are nice
15:34<@Alberth>I expected the oil one to be darker
15:34<@Alberth>maybe in the game they are different?
15:34<@Alberth>the grey walk area seems to be in the way here
15:43<andythenorth>the oil one should probably be darker
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15:57<andythenorth>darker https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7349/tank_cars_2.png
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16:08<@Alberth>better, more distinct from the others
16:12<andythenorth>yup
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17:15<jottyfan>got an error on building game script - what does that mean / how can I solve it?
17:15<jottyfan>python3 check_lang_compatibility.py lang/english.txt info.nut
17:15<jottyfan>** Comparing file lang/english.txt, current version and at revision bf1430b223d5df73a0c6ba9c996594a77d497cf1 **
17:15<jottyfan>Compatibility of language files failed.
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19:45<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 14 00:00:28 2015