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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-06-18

---Logopened Thu Jun 18 00:00:34 2015
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02:23<peter1138>Pretty damn warm here :(
02:23<supermop>where's there?
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05:24<khalil>Hey, I have a question
05:24<khalil>Error: Cannot open file 'innerhighlight.grf'
05:24<khalil>I got that error when trying to launch the game
05:25<khalil>after compiling it
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05:56<Flygon>Sad thing is
05:56<Flygon>When I read that
05:57<Flygon>I actually thought it was a Ragnarok Online derp
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06:56<@planetmaker>Flygon, sounds like you compiled a patch pack which requires a grf file but didn't provide it
06:57<Flygon>I meant khalil's problem
06:57<@planetmaker>err... same colour. Sorry :) yes
06:57<Flygon>I got no problems my end xP
06:57<@planetmaker>more tea...
06:57<Flygon>Tho, RO's client handled .grf problems horridly
06:57<Flygon>And then you consider the patcher would sometimes forget to download and repack certain files into the main .grf...
06:57<Flygon>Ragnarok Online
06:58<Flygon>Been using some sort of compressed .grf type file since 2001 xP
06:58<Flygon>No relation to OTTD's format, just the same file extension
06:59<Flygon>But, yeah. It really likes to crash when some .grfs are missing :B
06:59<Flygon>Because, when you're Korean
06:59<Flygon>Error handlers that insert dummies don't exist :B
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07:15<Rejf>good morning train fans. train GIF for you ;)
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07:17<Eddi|zuHause>what a terrible way to make a gif out of something...
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, if you're making a video of this position, try to capture the whole journey of the train from when the first part exits the tunnel, till the last part of the train exits the picture. to convey the actual hugeness of the train
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>instead of a handful of frames, that basically show nothing that a still picture wouldn't show you as well
07:21<Rejf>Eddi|zuHause: agree
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10:02<SneakySnake>Hi. I have a steel mill that produces steel. I want to transport that steel to a factory, but the truck station isn't getting any steel. When I built it, it said "Accepts Iron ore. Supplies: Steel", but it doesn't seem to be getting any steel, even though the "production last month" of the steel mill is greater than zero.
10:02<SneakySnake>Am I missing something?
10:03<Hiddenfunstuff>is the station in range?
10:03<V453000>did any steel vehicle load at the station yet?
10:03<Hiddenfunstuff>Yes that.. by default the steel doesnt sit in station unless theres need for it
10:03<SneakySnake>It's waiting to load, but it's not getting any steel
10:03<SneakySnake>It's at 0%
10:04<SneakySnake>Hmm, wait
10:04<V453000>and are you sure the truck is refit to steel?
10:04<SneakySnake>I accidentally sent an iron ore truck instead of steel truck
10:04<Hiddenfunstuff>there we gi,,
10:05<Hiddenfunstuff>wouldnt using trains more efficient anyways? unless its an feeder to a factory in neighbor?
10:07<SneakySnake>I'm just trying out the game, I'll worry about efficiency when I have mastered the basics
10:07<Hiddenfunstuff>oh.. ok
10:07<SneakySnake>Can I reorder vehicle orders or do I have to delete the existing orders if I have made an ordering mistake?
10:08<Hiddenfunstuff>you can drag them around
10:08<SneakySnake>That doesn't seem to be working
10:08<Hiddenfunstuff>or you mean change th order to another?
10:08<SneakySnake>Change the order of the orders
10:09<Hiddenfunstuff>you should be able to drag the orders around
10:09<SneakySnake>Is that a cutting edge feature or something? I'm using 1.5.1, and I can't drag orders. Maybe I have to enable it in settings?
10:09<Hiddenfunstuff>no.. its been there for ages and no settings needed
10:10<SneakySnake>wait, now it's working
10:10<SneakySnake>If an order is already highlighted, I can't move it
10:11<SneakySnake>Is that intentional behavior?
10:11<Hiddenfunstuff>Dunno.. But it works
10:12<Hiddenfunstuff>also when you add orders.. it adds above the highlighted one.. to have it add orders in the bottom.. click on the end of orders
10:12<SneakySnake>Yeah, it's easy to forget that
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11:10<SneakySnake>Thanks for the help guys
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11:41<@planetmaker>hi ho
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12:44<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
12:44<@Rubidium>lo andy
12:45<@Rubidium>how's Bristol's weather going to be saturday?
12:45*andythenorth looks
12:45<andythenorth>it’s going to be British
12:45<andythenorth>where are you staying?
12:46<andythenorth>Bath is nice
12:46<andythenorth>weird but nice
12:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: played any OTTD recently? o_O
12:46<@Rubidium>but only for two nights, after that three nights in quiet Newbury
12:51<Terkhen>andythenorth: not really :P
12:58<andythenorth>he :)
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13:01<andythenorth>Belugas: o/
13:01<andythenorth>all the people
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13:12<andythenorth>62 road vehicles 1860-2000
13:12<andythenorth>including trams
13:12<andythenorth>is that a lot?
13:13<@Alberth>@calc (2000-1860)/62
13:13<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 2.25806451613
13:13<andythenorth>Iron Horse provides 28 trains for the same time period
13:14<@Alberth>rvs are not much refittable I guess
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13:14<andythenorth>not so much
13:14<andythenorth>eGRVTS provides 114 vehicles last time I counted
13:15<@Alberth>one every 1/2 hour playing, seems nice enough
13:16<@Rubidium>what? no daylength patch? ;)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: vehicle count is a terrible metric
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "your essay must have 1500 words"
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>which is an almost meaningless requirement
13:17<@Alberth>if they are all eg livestock trucks, it's a bit overdone :p
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>if you use 900 words and said all you ever wanted to say, why pad it with another 600?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>and if you use 2500 words, but it just flows well and feels concise, why remove 1000 words?
13:19<@Rubidium>that's why pages is a much better metric
13:19<andythenorth>because writing essays isn’t about saying what you mean, but about learning to write a 1500 word essay
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: doesn't really help at all in that sense
13:19<@Rubidium>just change the margins, kerning and interline spacing ;)
13:20<@Rubidium>and maybe even the font
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13:20<andythenorth>quak etc
13:20*andythenorth will probably just add some more trucks
13:20<andythenorth>even though the buy menu is getting overwhelming
13:21<andythenorth>and if I add early and late generations
13:21<andythenorth>it will be worse
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: when i wrote my diploma thesis, the aim was 80 pages, but it really was just a vague aim
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: turn on vehicles expiring.
13:21<andythenorth>I hate that feature :P
13:21<andythenorth>it’s broken
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: cheat to a random year, type "resetengines", check the available vehicles at each time
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but then, "size of the buy menu list" is a non-goal
13:23<andythenorth>ok so the goal for these sets is ‘no boring choices'
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: unless you introduce all vehicles at 1860 and not have any generations at all
13:23<andythenorth>so variety + density might be metrics, not length
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: choices automatically become "boring" when you compare different generations
13:23<andythenorth>well yes
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>the new generation should always win out over the old one
13:24<andythenorth>but also scrolling is boring
13:24<andythenorth>and I can only see 12 vehicles at once on my screen
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you need to test with enabled expiring
13:24<andythenorth>and I don’t have touch-scroll
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>12 vehicles in each generation is more than plenty
13:25<andythenorth>I have 15 currently
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>7 types of trucks, 3 types of busses, 2 types of tram
13:26<andythenorth>every time I look at this
13:26<andythenorth>I conclude: delete the mining trucks and the logging trucks
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes. keep those in HEQS
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>use trucks you would find on regular roads in a random european town
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>(or american, or ...)
13:28<andythenorth>but then HEQS is in the buy menu....
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>{piece, bulk, liquid}x{non-articulated, articulated} is 6 types of trucks
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>should easily cover all generic usecases
13:29<andythenorth>‘add HEQS’ makes the problem worse, not better :P
13:30<andythenorth>because HEQS is bloated like a fat whale
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>assume the regular player doesn't "add heqs"
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>because he doesn't need a mining/logging truck
13:30<andythenorth>eh I’m not designing for other people ;)
13:30<andythenorth>I’m designing for andythenorth
13:30<andythenorth>I have no idea what other people want
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>put the logs on the bulk truck
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>or add a stake truck
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>makes 8 types
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>{piece, bulk, liquid, oversized}x{single, articulated}
13:32<andythenorth>yeah the stake/flat truck is what I’m considering adding
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>where wood counts as "oversized"
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>put steel on those as well
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>and engsup
13:32<andythenorth>HEQS 2 :P
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: stay focused :p
13:34<andythenorth>hmmm….roadtypes? o_O
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>roadtypes are for trolleybusses and simulated subways
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>... and pipes :p
13:36<andythenorth>and off-highway trucks
13:37<andythenorth>maybe that’s how I should organise the buy menu
13:37<andythenorth>on-highway, off-highway
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't have off-highway stuff
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>it serves no purpose. and that's what you want to get rid off when being concise is your concern
13:39<andythenorth>It has excessive capacity
13:39<andythenorth>at the cost of speed
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>if you need capacity, use a train
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>or a ship
13:39<andythenorth>the capacity per tile on mining trucks is quite insanely high
13:40<andythenorth>compared to a fully signalled train route
13:40<andythenorth>and ships don’t do hills :P
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>use road vehicles when you don't want to rip up half the town for a train station
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>or when you want to deliver small amounts
13:40<andythenorth>I am 50% convinced on removing the off-highway stuff
13:40*andythenorth will bbiab
13:40<andythenorth>must to home
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13:46<frosch123>hai, you have been busy :)
13:47<@planetmaker>a little bit
13:47<@planetmaker>not too much, but I like the idea :)
13:48<@planetmaker>I mostly wonder how to handle the doxygen config file as it contains also project specific stuff. But it also needs to contain site-specific ones
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a job for #include
13:48<frosch123>what would be project specific?
13:49<@planetmaker>like name, author etc
13:49<@planetmaker>that's even build-specific
13:49<frosch123>name, author, version could be determined automatically
13:50<frosch123>but yes, as eddi says, you can also optionally include files and replace/add to varaibles
13:50<frosch123>like etc
13:50<@planetmaker>yes... that's possible
13:50<frosch123>Most of the info you mentioned is actually in info.nut
13:51<frosch123>bananas and musa can parse them
13:52<frosch123>so, we could even detect a library.nut
13:52<frosch123>and use name and version on bundles
13:52<frosch123>so people can access the docs for a specific library version
13:54<@planetmaker>hm... using name and version on bundles from libraries...
13:54<frosch123>hmm, though maybe tags are better
13:54<frosch123>people tend to increase version number before release
13:54<frosch123>not before the first change for the next version
13:55<@planetmaker>well, there are release builds and push builds, like for every project. So the releases will be probably the more relevant ones
13:56<@planetmaker>right. So I'll try to auto-create part of Doxyfile
13:59<@planetmaker>I have to say the results on busy bee with doxygen were not very promising, though :P
13:59<@planetmaker>(currently there only 2 script projects have an associated build job... both contain the word 'bee')
14:00<frosch123>we need more forks :p
14:03<frosch123>i would not be surprised if the bees have epydoc style comments :p
14:08<@Alberth>more doxygen-ish
14:08<@Alberth>planetmaker: the comments are not proper doxygen
14:09<frosch123>it lacks some slashes
14:09<@Alberth>you need a special introductory comment, like ///! or or
14:11<@planetmaker>:) yeah. I only noticed as I need a test project
14:13<@Alberth>doxygen doesn't work nicely due to lack of types
14:14<@Alberth>not sure how doxygen handles python code
14:17<@planetmaker>not much better, I think, as python wasn't taught to doxygen yet. At least from what I understood from doxygen docs
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14:26*andythenorth plans Esoteric Transport GRF
14:27<@Alberth>planetmaker: no types though
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14:30<@Alberth> has a type for PHP
14:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: you can only distribute that as limited edition
14:43<andythenorth>pipelines, mining trucks
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "esoteric" as in niche (like segway, or a ferry in Rendsburg that doesn't touch the water) or out-of-general-human-understanding (like a flying saucer)
14:43<andythenorth>heavy lift aircraft
14:43<andythenorth>the pipelines grf is great
14:44<andythenorth>except it has too many pumps
14:44<andythenorth>and signalling is very boring
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>the pipeline grf falls for me into the same category as the signals on bridges patch... an interesting idea implemented in the absolutely worst kind of way
14:45<andythenorth>I use it in every game now
14:46<andythenorth>maybe it’s time for NewTransportTypes
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15:03<andythenorth>groups in the buy menu?
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15:04*andythenorth considers implementing mining trucks and such as trams
15:04<andythenorth>or trains
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15:05<andythenorth>probably a railytype
15:06<@planetmaker>doxygen output, where should it go on bundles server?
15:06<@planetmaker>./docs relative to the binary / script?
15:06<@planetmaker>or docs/doxygen/ so that one can ship also additionally custom docs without them drowning in doxygen output?
15:06<@planetmaker>or something else entirely?
15:07<andythenorth>do they document the project, or the project’s source code?
15:07<@planetmaker>they document the source
15:07<andythenorth>in their own path somewhere
15:07<@planetmaker>docs/doxygen then?
15:07<andythenorth>suitable :)
15:08<andythenorth>so trains have “4-4-0 Standard (Steam)” or whatever
15:09<andythenorth>should trucks have “Witch Hill Mining Truck (Off-highway)” ?
15:09<andythenorth>or “Jinglepot General Cargo Truck (On-highway)"
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather put that into the description
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>but have i mentioned that i don't like the on/off highway distinction?
15:13<andythenorth>you have me 50% convinced
15:14<andythenorth>I actually think we should do roadtypes
15:14<andythenorth>my thinking is
15:14<andythenorth>based on playing quite a lot recently
15:14<andythenorth>I like building lots of different transport types
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15:15<andythenorth>managing capacity and contention on a specific type (especially trains) is quite boring
15:15<andythenorth>but threading lots of types through a congested area is fun
15:15<andythenorth>I think the game is fundamentally about building routes
15:15<andythenorth>rather than choosing vehicles
15:15<andythenorth>and 10 years of newgrf are doing it wrong
15:16<andythenorth>pipe.grf might be relatively terrible, but it’s the most interesting use of railtypes so far
15:17<andythenorth>now I build two routes, instead of figuring out how to jam more oil trains onto the main spine
15:18<andythenorth>endlessly compatible roadtypes would be very boring
15:18<andythenorth>mutually exclusive roadtypes is quite interesting
15:26<frosch123>[21:07] <andythenorth> do they document the project, or the project’s source code? <- there is no difference for libraries
15:26<frosch123>the source is the project
15:26<andythenorth>yeah my answer was specific to grf
15:26<andythenorth>other projects, ymmv
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>i never figured out what ymmv is supposed to mean
15:37<@planetmaker>your milage may vary
15:39<@Alberth>"results may be different if you try it" :)
15:40*andythenorth wonders
15:40<andythenorth>why Goods is not Piece Goods class
15:40<andythenorth>it seems odd
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>hysterical raisins
15:42*andythenorth ignores it
15:42<@planetmaker>frosch123, I'm actually not sure how to automatically get version and name from the scripts
15:42<andythenorth>if I changed it in FIRS, the wiki would be wrong
15:42<andythenorth>and I can’t edit wiki
15:42<@planetmaker>if they all put the information in main.nut or info.nut ... yes. But already busy-bee does not and generates that info
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>wood is even weirder wrt cargo class
15:42<@planetmaker>so... what to assume?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: run the steps that put that info there first? makefiles should be able to do that, right?
15:45<@planetmaker>but then they could generate the Doxygen config file on the same step, too. Instead of me parsing different output
15:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: clearly bundles of wood
15:46<andythenorth>or individual logs :P
15:46<andythenorth>I do miss the days when cargo class was a thing that was talked about :P
15:47<@Alberth>planetmaker: not sure bees need any doxygenerated docs :) but sure, why not add it to the makefile
15:47<@Alberth>it has all the info
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: will you ever use Road Hog? I am considering a parameter to disable off-highway vehicles
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but then that is two tasks that sort of do the same thing in two different ways, which may or may not be weird
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how should i know?
15:47<andythenorth>similar to Iron Horse ‘disabling’ the extra types if the railtype isn’t provided
15:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: predict the future
15:48<andythenorth>it’s impossible, yet we try all the time
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>by current extrapolation, i won't play the game at all in quite a while
15:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: assume he will at some point, and you're always safe
15:48<andythenorth>the game is quite fun
15:49<@planetmaker>Alberth, it's not so much about busy bee in particular. It's for me a convenient example :) And it's the only script project really which gets build/published, thus has a Makefile at all
15:49<andythenorth>we should write another GS
15:49*andythenorth commited about twice to busy bee :P
15:49<@Alberth>wanna do a Dutch translation? :p
15:50<andythenorth>didn’t we write a web translator?
15:50<@Alberth>yeah, but it has no Dutch Bee translators
15:50<andythenorth>I thought it did it by magic
15:51<@Alberth>wll, it works for some languages :)
15:51*andythenorth ponders a GS suitable for all the ‘brit’ rosters he’s making
15:51<andythenorth>how about “invent 50% of engineering inventions, and have the world’s biggest empire, then somehow squander that”
15:51<andythenorth>is that a GS?
15:52<@Alberth>what happened to the 'winning the west' GS?
15:52<andythenorth>I haven’t made any grfs for it yet :(
15:53<@Alberth>Britain doesn't have a West?
15:53<andythenorth>I am in it :P
15:53<andythenorth>Rubidium soon too :P
15:53<andythenorth>we didn’t have to kill all the buffalo though
15:53<andythenorth>can we measure average vehicle speed in a GS?
15:53<@Alberth>good, OpenTTD is a family-friendly game
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: over all available or all existing vehicles?
15:54<andythenorth>UK has some of the fastest average PAX train speeds, fast freight trains, and allegedly our trucks work some of the most punishing schedules
15:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: dunno
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "all available" may have the problem of obsolete vehicles dragging down the value too much, and "all existing" may make more sense per cargo, as wagon speed limits may be different
15:56<andythenorth>per cargo is quite nice
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15:56<frosch123>planetmaker: take AyStar as example
15:56<frosch123>it has doxygen comments
15:56<frosch123>and it has a simple library.nut
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>all existing may produce a better reaction to the player's actual playstyle
15:57<frosch123>planetmaker: actually, a lot of the ai libraries seem to use doxygen comments
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>a player with mixed local and express trains will have a lower value than one that has all maglev
15:57<frosch123>and most of them do not do the version magic that bee does
15:57<frosch123>Pathfinder.Road and Pathfinder.Rail also use doxygen
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15:58<frosch123>and BinaryHeap
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15:58<andythenorth>dunno how much GS knows about the available vehicles
15:59<Wolf01>hi o/
15:59<frosch123>superlib not so much
15:59<frosch123>so mostly the tb/yexo libs use doxygen
15:59<frosch123>cEngineLib might also work
16:02<frosch123>planetmaker: i think all the info.nut magic only exists for ais and game scripts, but not for the libraries
16:02<frosch123>libraries cannot increase the version on every commit
16:02<frosch123>but only on releases, so it makes little sense to add a Makefile to them
16:03<andythenorth>average speed goal probably fails on waiting in stations and such
16:04*andythenorth wonders about setting point-to-point delivery time goals
16:05<andythenorth>would need to calculate distance
16:05<@planetmaker>however aystar has a Makefile :)
16:05<andythenorth>and specify the transport type
16:05<andythenorth>and know the speed of the fastest appropriate vehicle
16:06<@planetmaker>frosch123, does every library necessarily have a library.nut?
16:07<@planetmaker>and every script an info.nut?
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16:07<frosch123>but i see no point in doxygen for scripts
16:08<@planetmaker>you mean only for libraries?
16:09<frosch123>libraries have a fixed api for a fixed version
16:09<frosch123>so it makes sense to provide documentation for specific versions
16:09<frosch123>so people can look it up, just like the openttd api
16:10<@planetmaker>yes, it's more useful for libraries, sure :)
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16:14<frosch123>planetmaker: <- the same works for author, name and version for most libraries
16:14<frosch123>and the libraries using magic, can provide a makefile, if they want :p
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16:23<@planetmaker> <-- I was about to use this
16:24<frosch123>likely also works for most of them :)
16:24<frosch123>i think zuu wrote that other code
16:25<frosch123>no idea what he had in mind
16:26<@planetmaker>Well, that doesn't check for version. A library or script can do:
16:26<@planetmaker>VERSION <- 6
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16:26<@planetmaker>function GetVersion() { return VERSION; }
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16:26<@planetmaker>or function GetVersion() { return 6; }
16:27<frosch123>yeah, but those can also provider custom Makefiles then :p
16:27<@planetmaker>the latter is nice. The earlier... not so for my case
16:27<@planetmaker>so I'll just submit it as I just pasted
16:31<frosch123>from the libraries in my content_download folder
16:32<frosch123>there are only 3 or 4 libraries which use version magic
16:32<frosch123>3 or 4 depending on whether you count superlib for ai and gs separately
16:33<frosch123>i think the bigger task is to make libraries use correct doxygen syntax :)
16:33<@planetmaker>yeah, probably
16:34<@planetmaker>we out-source that to the guy who wrote that script :P
16:41<frosch123>is there some example output for some project on bundles?
16:42<@planetmaker>so far? No
16:43<@planetmaker>I haven't built anything on the server yet. I had it run locally on BB to see what it gives; but not yet on a library
16:43<frosch123>ok :)
16:44<@planetmaker>but that's something for tomorrow to test, setting up the projects, I think
17:03<frosch123>planetmaker: i've added wormnest as manager to the project :p
17:03<andythenorth>is bed
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17:05<@planetmaker>ty, frosch123 :)
17:18<Terkhen>good night
17:18<@planetmaker>good night from here, too :)
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 19 00:00:35 2015